September 14, 2016

"I find it to be ironic that it has taken Donald J. Trump to bring to the fore the obvious conflict of interest that exists between..."

"... low-skilled American workers (of whatever ethnicity), on the one hand, and low-skilled foreign workers who wish to enter or remain in the United States, on the other. Isn't it interesting that his detractors NEVER EVEN ENGAGE THIS QUESTION? But, the question is fundamental for anyone concerned to improve the life chances of the most disadvantaged Americans. That's why I'm sharing this piece, from George Borjas — the Harvard economist who, perhaps more than anyone else, has been producing and analyzing data that bear directly on this issue. No, he's not a 'racist' for looking into this question. And neither am I, for taking what he has to say seriously. Indeed, those who would dismiss — or, worse, suppress — a candid examination of the consequences for poor domestic workers of having large numbers of low-skilled immigrants are the ones whose social ethics should be called into question."

Writes Glenn Loury, commenting on this Politico article, "Yes, Immigration Hurts American Workers/The candidates tell drastically different stories about immigration. They’re both skipping half the truth."

92 comments:

rhhardin said...

The difference is between American and foreign, not anything about race.

America is run for the benefit of Americans. We get to say who comes here and who stays.

If the deal that benefits Americans also benefits foreigners, they there's a match and they come. Otherwise they won't. That's voluntary association at work.

The rule is benefit Americans. The foreigners watch out for their own benefit.

It's the same as the free market between individuals. A trade happens when both benefit.

America isn't a charity for foreigners.

CJinPA said...

Wow. There was a line of thought that said "Maybe Trump should get credit for forcing immigration into the national discourse, but he's so unlikable he will make it impossible to seriously discuss the issue. He has tainted it."

This seems to refute that.

Downside is it give Clinton time to shift gears to a more nuanced position ahead of the first debate.

eric said...

It's a really sad thing what we have done in this country.

I recall reading C.S. Lewis many years ago. To paraphrase, he says nothing should ever be elevated to the highest thing. I believe he gives an example of compassion, although he may not quite use that word. If we elevate compassion to the highest thing and never have justice, then we become angels to the criminals and demons to the victims.

In this country, we have elevated compassion for the plight of immigrants to such a high order, that we have forgotten the harm we are causing. Not just to the citizen, but also to the illegal. The illegal immigrant has no certainty. Do they need to remain in the shadows and allow themselves to be abused?

The citizen also has no certainty. How do I appeal the lose of my job to an illegal when I'm called a racist for using the term illegal when speaking of an immigrant present without admission?

We have done so much harm in this area, it's refreshing to finally see someone like Trump on the scene speaking of it boldly, allowing the rest of us to voice our opinions as well.

rhhardin said...

The other effect that might be included is that if you free-trade with foreign nations, you import force and fraud into your economic system if those nations limit their workers' options with force and fraud.

So the economic theory that free trade is always good fails, in that its basis fails, namely no fraud and no force.

You can't free-trade with a country that isn't free market.

madAsHell said...

It's all cleared up by the statement....."These are jobs that Americans don't want!!".

AReasonableMan said...

Both parties ignore the economic interests of the country's poorest citizens. Except for explicitly socialist parties, this is an almost universal truth of politics. Poor people don't count. The current confusion and anger amongst poor and even middle class whites is that they genuinely believed that they did count.

Nonapod said...

The other big element that hasn't seemed to have been mentioned here is the effects of the increasing automation/robotization of our labor force, especially on the low end. It's not that hard to intuit that in an economy with a shrinking number of low skilled employment opportunities, importing millions of new low skilled workers is probably a bad idea.

rehajm said...

This has been a major plank of Trump's since the beginning- why is it ironic?

Hagar said...

I question the "low-skilled" part.
Immigrants - legal or otherwise - have to compete to survive. In fact, the illegal ones will have a harder time competing, so if they survive, that indicates they were not so "low-skilled."
I think there is a lot of conflating going on here between "skilled" and "credentialed." This is not the same thing.
What I do not at all understand is that we allow the "dot.com" industry to bypass the immigration rules and import tens of thousands of "credentialed" immigrants from third world countries while firing similarly "credentialed" American workers. I do not understand how this works either, but apparently Government rules allow these firms to pay the immigrants less than the citizen workers. Something is artificially skewed here.

Bill Peschel said...

"Both parties ignore the economic interests of the country's poorest citizens. Except for explicitly socialist parties, this is an almost universal truth of politics."

Cubans would disagree. Or is this one of those "no good socialists" arguments?

rehajm said...

As for Borjas, his is an argument of a demagogue, not an economist. It's unsurprising Loury is persuaded.

damikesc said...

The supporters aren't the ones whose jobs are on the line.

Cruz' ad was still the best. If we had lawyers et al coming and taking jobs from Americans, you'd see something done to stop it.

Both parties ignore the economic interests of the country's poorest citizens. Except for explicitly socialist parties, this is an almost universal truth of politics

Socialism is infinitely worse for the poor. See Venezuela.

Real American said...

lefties would rather cry racism than come up with an original thought or cogent argument. their safe-spaced out little brains just can't handle that.

AReasonableMan said...

The fundamental problem, which is largely ignored, is that politicians, economists and business leaders have no clue how to create an economy that doesn't depend critically on population growth to produce GDP growth. Without GDP growth the economic basis of most companies and governments is unsustainable. Thus, the constant pressure for population growth in western countries that could otherwise function perfectly well with their current or even declining population levels.

Lucien said...

Illegal immigrant labor subsidizes lower prices for produce, restaurant food, construction, etc.

Subsidies are never free. We pay with higher costs for education, welfare, auto accidents where the party at fault is uninsured, and impaired workers rights for the illegal immigrants.

Honest farmers elsewhere in the world pay because their produce would be more competitively priced here in the absence of subsidized low prices. Then instead of sending dollars to the farmers to buy their produce, we send it as aid to their kleptocratic governments.

But we're doing it for the children . . . er, "Dreamers".

tim in vermont said...

The current confusion and anger amongst poor and even middle class whites is that they genuinely believed that they did count. - ARM

Like PB&J said, the world was a better place before the internet when they suffered in silence.

But to answer the guys original point. Yes it is racist to point this stuff out. Especailly if you are a Republican! Just ask R&B, who will tell you that preventing government unions from collecting dues from people who don't want to join is shitting on the very poor.

I say that getting involved in union negotiations and the push and pull and give and take of those negotiations has nothing to do with the very poor. But what do I know?

tim in vermont said...

I buy vegetables at farmers' markets, when I can, or go to farm stands. These vegetables cost more. I recently had a friend from Florida visiting me in Vermont and she remarked at how expensive things were there compared to Florida. I said I would rather pay people enough to live decently for produce than get cheap stuff subsidized by wages that are the next thing to slavery and by workers who are afraid to assert their rights. She said that attitude was racist because it means I only want white people to be farmers.

Heavy sigh...

tim in vermont said...

White racism, and since only whites can be racist, all racism, tracks closely to white poverty. These are the losers, the "basket of deplorables" that are "irredeemable" and "not America."

Who knew that the Grapes of Wrath was not about "America"? The Democrats!

cubanbob said...

Trump in his rambling and incoherent way has nevertheless pointed out the unnamed 800lb gorilla in the room: we do not have a labor shortage nor do we have a shortage of poor people.

ARM is right about the inability over time to have economic growth without population growth, however that is over time. In the meantime we have a rather large number of people who aren't in the labor force but could be and that is the pool of people needed to continue growth for the near term. I think that Trump is trying to say that first let's create a labor shortage then we can deal with new immigration.

David Begley said...

The first duty of the Federal government is to American citizens. The federal government has no duty to accept anyone into this country on a permanent basis.

tim in vermont said...

ARM is a big advocate of putting the losers on the dole and getting a new better class of workers in from overseas to replace them. This is called "sustainable growth."

jr565 said...

The democrats, including Hillary used to make this argument. That is, before they viewed immigration as a means to get massive number of new votes. Now, they buried the whole "Doing the jobs that americans wont do" under the bus, since they dont want to bring it up.
But People like Bernie Sanders and Mickey Kaus still remind people from time to time.

AReasonableMan said...

tim in vermont said...
ARM is a big advocate of putting the losers on the dole and getting a new better class of workers in from overseas to replace them. This is called "sustainable growth."


Little Tim likes to make things up in his head.

Clayton Hennesey said...

There was an interesting segment on NPR this morning celebrating in Hispanic tones the advantage of the dual citizenship citizen to vote in either country, or both.

With respect to Mexico, it has long been indisputable that Mexico grazes its poor on the northern pastures of American infrastructure, educational as well as economic. Like the cowbird laying its eggs in the nests of others, depending on the instinctive maternal compassion of other birds to see to it that its young are raised to adulthood, Mexico has done the same with its lower class citizens, saving itself an enormous amount of political upheaval while saving its oligarchs a bundle.

The NPR segment just makes explicit the political dimension as well.

Just as cyber war succeeded armed conflict, so too now patient, pacifist demographic war is being proven as a way for one nation to systematically colonize and take control of another without firing a shot.

The formula, which is only really efficient between adjacent nations, is simple. Move one's citizens into another nation. Appeal to compassion to keep them there and reproducing. Retain their original identity by granting them citizenship in one's own country, which, practically speaking, means they're really only liable to vote in the country being colonized, but will likely do so in favor of the policies of the home country. Rinse and repeat.

Such parasitism has repeatedly proven to be such a successful strategy that it abounds in the natural world, and there's absolutely no reason it will not in the geopolitical world as well. All it takes is sufficient compassion in the receiving country and sufficient patience in the sending one. Race or ethnicity really has nothing to do with it; this is demographic-political climate change, not tribalistic weather.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

rhhardin said...America is run for the benefit of Americans. We get to say who comes here and who stays.

Your "is" isn't valid if it's congruent with the rest of your comment, and your "Americans" and "we" are only valid for...certain classes of people.

Even saying "America should be run for the benefit of American citizens" is enough to get you called racist, xenophobic, and a crypto-Nazi. I agree we SHOULD have a say, but should and do aren't the same.

CJinPA said...Downside is it give Clinton time to shift gears to a more nuanced position ahead of the first debate.

I doubt very seriously she will--the "deplorable" comment is about as far as she'll go (she admits in the 2nd part of that comment that some of Trump's supporters have what they feel are legitimate fears around immigration, changing times, etc). Obama did about the same--his "bitter clingers" comment sums up what the Dems think of those people--as far as the Dems are willing to go is to condescendingly acknowledge that some (largely ignorant) people have these fears and some of those fears are somewhat understandable.

It's not exactly compassionate, empathetic outreach. The sad fact, though, is that it's probably enough--Obama didn't pay much of a price, in the end, for the "bitter clingers" accidental truth-telling.

rhhardin said...

It's not ironic. The first smart guy who doesn't follow PC will discover it.

Not following PC is labelled as racist and so the problem is not discoverable by the left. It has to be discovered by the right, and what's more a "disreputable" right.

The magic of PC.

wholelottasplainin' said...

"Thus, the constant pressure for population growth in western countries that could otherwise function perfectly well with their current or even declining population levels."

****************

"Perfectly well"? How about some evidence?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

David Begley said...
The first duty of the Federal government is to American citizens. The federal government has no duty to accept anyone into this country on a permanent basis.


If I may:
The loyalty of the Federal government should be to American citizens. The Federal government should not act as though it has a duty to accept anyone into this country on a permanent basis. Immigration policy should be set based on the will of American citizens, democratically.

AReasonableMan said...

wholelottasplainin' said...
"Perfectly well"? How about some evidence?


As I already noted, they struggle to be economically sustainable due to the incompetence of our leaders, but otherwise what desperate need is there for population growth in Europe or most other western countries? We no longer live in a world where the country with the largest number of expendable soldiers wins. Thanks to mechanization we no longer need a vast army of peasants to feed us. What exactly is the upside to a constantly expanding population for most western countries?

Lyle Smith said...

This is Mickey Kaus' big problem with Democrats and amnesty.

Tank said...

Between this post, and the very excellent (for the most part) comments, we got a lotta hate facts here.

I'll just note:

1. Yes, plenty of us have pointed this out for a long time.

2. It's not just unskilled ... (I think this was mentioned above too).

Tank said...

I said "lotta"

New word.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Tank said...
I said "lotta"

New word.


A little-known band from 1969 disagrees, Tank.

bagoh20 said...

"What exactly is the upside to a constantly expanding population for most western countries?"

It's the only way to keep the pyramid schemes working. You need a constant supply of new suckers.

Michael K said...

"Except for explicitly socialist parties,"

That is nonsense and Orwell had the best take on it.

In addition to this there is the horrible — the really disquieting — prevalence of cranks wherever Socialists are gathered together. One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words 'Socialism' and 'Communism' draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, 'Nature Cure' quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.

Also, ARM, if everyone were the same age, there would be no need for population and GDP growth. What happens when population growth subsides is the imbalance between makers and takers. Japan is feeling it. Germany has a disastrous experiment of importing Muslims who are mostly illiterate and expecting them to be good Germans.

What is really disgusting is to see the Silicon Valley billionaires using their support of Democrats to import cheap labor as code writers.
And, it's not just Silicon Valley. Disney and even Southern California Edison are doing it. Cruz's point about importing lawyers is an excellent one.

traditionalguy said...

Does anyone remember the 1990s and on into the early 2000s Dot Com bubble that popped. During those years every politician was Talking Big about new Government Programs for Re-Training American manufacturing workers who were losing their jobs so they could take the better paying High Tech jobs still here in America.

They all delivered their smooth lines with straight faces. But they all knew it was all lies all of the time.

It did kick the can down the road and then cover it up with a Real Estate Bubble of all bubbles that had to be intentionally blown up with the the 2008 crash that destroyed all but insiders who were in on timing that crash.

Trump will need to do a great leadership job when the insiders blow this stock market bubble too.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Clayton Hennesey said...

The formula, which is only really efficient between adjacent nations, is simple. Move one's citizens into another nation. Appeal to compassion to keep them there and reproducing. Retain their original identity... which... means they're really only liable to vote... in favor of the policies of the home country. Rinse and repeat.

This is the strategy Massachusetts employs with regards to New Hampshire.

The Cracker Emcee said...

Hagar,

I don't think you've seen a house that's been finished with cheap immigrant labor or you're too young to recognize the decline.

tim in vermont said...

Little Tim likes to make things up in his head.

Yeah, I was a little careless on that comment, reading another commenter's summary of your comment. Actually, you have become sort of reasonable recently.

Anglelyne said...

CJinPA: Wow. There was a line of thought that said "Maybe Trump should get credit for forcing immigration into the national discourse, but he's so unlikable he will make it impossible to seriously discuss the issue. He has tainted it."

"X poisoned the discussion" is a line that's been used for a long time now by dishonest goodthinkers who discover themselves on the wrong side of an issue. Nowhere is this more apparent than the issue of immigration. They will never, ever admit they were just wrong, dead wrong -- not only about the issue but about the people who disagreed with them about the issue.

It's been an ongoing petty, vicious little game of catch-22. It was not possible to question the orthodoxy without "tainting" the discussion thereof, because anyone who questioned the goodness of the open borders agenda was by definition a "nativist", a xenophobe, a racist.

Don't expect any grace or humility from these assholes. They are far too petty-minded to concede any good intentions or far-sightedness on the part of their opponents.

Anglelyne said...

HoodlumDoodlum: A little-known band from 1969 disagrees, Tank.

I'll fix that link for ya.

tim in vermont said...

Here’s the problem with the current immigration debate: Neither side is revealing the whole picture. Trump might cite my work, but he overlooks my findings that the influx of immigrants can potentially be a net good for the nation, increasing the total wealth of the population. Clinton ignores the hard truth that not everyone benefits when immigrants arrive. For many Americans, the influx of immigrants hurts their prospects significantly.

Actually, ARM, I was summarizing Hillary's position, and that of the Democrats. Which is fuck the poor, it's fine! We all get more stuff!

JaimeRoberto said...

"Doing the jobs Americans won't do" should be amended to read "Doing the jobs Americans won't do at the price being offered". Reduce the flow of low-skilled immigrants, the price being offered will rise, and Americans might decide to take the job.

Tank said...

LOL, I yield to the Led

Jon Burack said...

It seems to me Loury and many others here repeat the same Trump mantras about immigrants "taking away jobs," though in a more nuanced way, I admit, yet in a way that still seems to me to be without much rigor in the analysis. Meanwhile, I recommend a book John Podhoretz reviews today, Nicholas Eberstadt's "Men Without Work." It bears on all this.

http://nypost.com/2016/09/13/crisis-of-un-work-why-7-million-men-have-left-the-us-labor-force/

This is a look at the millions of men who do not work, are not working, have no desire to work, and WILL not work. Their behavior has little or nothing to do with the fact that immigrants ARE working. It has to do with far deeper sicknesses within a segment of the body politic that go way beyond immigrants, wages, available jobs, job training opportunities, etc. Meanwhile, thousands of welder jobs and other kinds of well-paying industrial employment are unfilled but could be filled by Americans willing to endure the challenges of training for them. It is not that immigrants do not undercut wages for some and have some impact on native employment. I am pretty sure they do - just as sure as I am that no one here has come close to making an evidenced-based argument showing what that relationship is. But the demonizing of immigrants a la Trump and all too many here does absolutely nothing to correct what is the real tragedy at work for the men in Eberstadt's book. However, demonizing immigrants is an old established rule in American politics, it crops up whenever immigration is high and economic growth is not high. The connection between the two is not nearly as robust as the emotive power of blaming and externalizing. We did it to the Irish, to the Germans, to the Italians, to the Russians, to the Poles, and now to Hispanics. It never gets anyone anywhere.

Rusty said...

AReasonableMan said...
The fundamental problem, which is largely ignored, is that politicians, economists and business leaders have no clue how to create an economy that doesn't depend critically on population growth to produce GDP growth. Without GDP growth the economic basis of most companies and governments is unsustainable. Thus, the constant pressure for population growth in western countries that could otherwise function perfectly well with their current or even declining population levels.


Want to grow the economy? Quit taxing wealth and quit regulating innovation. It has nothing to do with population growth. If it did Switzerland would be the poorest country in Europe.

tim in vermont said...

"Doing the jobs Americans won't do" should be amended to read "Doing the jobs Americans won't do at the price being offered"

Kind of like workers who are on strike and create a picket line, AKA a "border", and then everybody demonizes the scabs who are willing to work for the wages on offer. That's why I call illegals "illegal scabs."

BTW, I buy vegetables almost every day around here from Americans willing to do the work for a decent price. The problem is to get them to stoop in the fields all day for almost nothing while the owners rake in the profits. That part is hard to get Americans to do.

AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
Want to grow the economy? Quit taxing wealth and quit regulating innovation. It has nothing to do with population growth. If it did Switzerland would be the poorest country in Europe.


Much of the problem with the US today is that people have no pride in their work. You've got something to say but not quite sure on the facts? Why not just fucking google it? Cause if you fucking did you would fucking find that fucking Switzerland currently has a fucking higher rate of population growth than the US, although it has been lower. Much of this population growth was driven by immigration, just like every other fucking western country, hence their problems with fucking immigrants. And, you have obviously never been to fucking Switzerland if you think they are even relatively free of regulations.

khesanh0802 said...

The wage results of open immigration/illegal immigration are a confirmation of the law of supply and demand. Neither an individual nor a country can negate the law of supply and demand no matter how hard they try.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

The reason none of his critics engage with Trump on illegal immigration is that they know perfectly well that telling people that globalism is inevitable and the nation state is an anachronism and if you can't hack it then you should go off in a field and die is not a winning electoral strategy.

Rusty said...

AReasonableMan said...
Rusty said...
Want to grow the economy? Quit taxing wealth and quit regulating innovation. It has nothing to do with population growth. If it did Switzerland would be the poorest country in Europe.

"Much of the problem with the US today is that people have no pride in their work. You've got something to say but not quite sure on the facts? Why not just fucking google it? Cause if you fucking did you would fucking find that fucking Switzerland currently has a fucking higher rate of population growth than the US, although it has been lower. Much of this population growth was driven by immigration, just like every other fucking western country, hence their problems with fucking immigrants. And, you have obviously never been to fucking Switzerland if you think they are even relatively free of regulations."

So much for civility I guess. And no. I didn't google it. Thanks for doing that by the way. Would you happen to know how many undocumented immigrants they have in their country? I'll save you a trip. Very few. They're real assholes about who they let in their country. And Yes. I have been to Switzerland any number of times. One of the reasons they have such a sucessful economy is because they have fewer regulations than e do.
Now. Once again. You want to grow the economy? Give more people the incentive to create wealth. You do this by less taxes and fewer regulations.
"Much of the problem with the US today is that people have no pride in their work."
Maybe you should switch jobs.

AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
Maybe you should switch jobs.


You are a complete fucking moron. You concede that you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about, even while trying to shift the goal posts, and yet you still keep talking nonsense. You are a broken record, a one note loser.

AReasonableMan said...

Ron Winkleheimer said...
globalism is inevitable and the nation state is an anachronism and if you can't hack it then you should go off in a field and die


As much as I might like it to be otherwise It is difficult to find a strong argument against this. This is basically what I have told my own kids. Being the best in your class won't mean squat if there are tens of thousands of Chinese/Indian kids who can do better. You have to measure yourself against the world, not against the few pampered kids who live in your local neighborhood.

HT said...

"Isn't it interesting that his detractors NEVER EVEN ENGAGE THIS QUESTION?"

I (liberal Dem who will probably hold my nose and vote for Hillary) have been saying this FOREVER! Glenn, you are not the only one who has thought of this! Sorry, that just kind of steams me, that he thinks ONLY Trump voters entertain this idea.

Bad Lieutenant said...

HT,

No, not that he thinks ONLY Trump voters entertain this idea, but that only Trump is serving the idea, and that his detractors oppose it or avoid it. He has therefore earned the votes of those who regard it as a concern, including yours. Liberal is as liberal does. HRC is happy for devil-with-the-hindmost. Oh, they'll get a dole, as is convenient, but is that what anyone really wants?

Rusty said...

ARM
You have a habit of ignoring the issue and concerning yourself with minutia. You made an assertion not based in fact. I disputed it. You proved you can't argue the pnt on it's merit so you want to misdirect attention to a side issue.


AReasonableMan said...
"The fundamental problem, which is largely ignored, is that politicians, economists and business leaders have no clue how to create an economy that doesn't depend critically on population growth to produce GDP growth. Without GDP growth the economic basis of most companies and governments is unsustainable. Thus, the constant pressure for population growth in western countries that could otherwise function perfectly well with their current or even declining population levels."

An assertion not based on fact. Talking out of your ass as it were. All I've done is disagree. Now quit being childish and give something to back up your assertion. If you don't then mine is as equally as valid.

khesanh0802 said...

Okay; for ARM and Rusty.:

Swiss population 8.1 million; Undocumented workers 76,000; % undocumented to entire population .9%

US population 318.9 million; undocumented workers 11 million; % undocumented to entire population 3.45%

If you would like more info on Switzerland's undocumented See here. It looks like a very different profile than in the US.

You can google yourself blind on US illegals.

Skimming this article leads me to the conclusion that Swiss immigration policy is very restrictive and that it is controlled in favor of those who a specific talent to offer immediately.

AReasonableMan said...

khesanh0802 said...
Okay; for ARM and Rusty.:


And this would be a useful contribution if the discussion had been about illegal immigration but it was about the economic effects of immigration, of any kind. Don't try to move the goalposts.

AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
If you don't then mine is as equally as valid.


No, because you are a fucking moron who only has one note to sing. And, literally everyone with any sense recognizes that flat or declining populations are producing economic problems that our leaders have failed to properly anticipate, much less come up with effective long term solutions. Here, read something and try to catch up with everyone else. This particular problem is quite striking in Itally, where the younger generations have become increasingly tentative and unwilling to take the kinds of economic risks that young people routinely took back in the sixties. As the economy becomes less buoyant everyone becomes more conservative.

HT said...

I am a Trump detractor and I do NOT oppose it nor do I avoid talking about it. I do think he has gone all Wallace on us all by EXPLOITING the issue for *his* gain, and probably he has no intention of doing even 1/4 of what he says he will. Meanwhile, I have been pointing out for a very long time the horrible effects mass immigration has on jobs, especially low skilled jobs. Take an American who does not speak Spanish, and put him/her in a room with others applying for a janitor job, for example, and that person will think that such jobs are no longer for Americans and he or she may not even go through with the application. This is happening, has been for years, in many places. It's sad.

And yes, someone else said that immigrants, esp undocumented, suffer too. I have been pointing out how once businesses have sucked all the life out of someone's brain, heart and kidneys, and they are finally diagnosed with one chronic disease or another, they are no longer needed, and due to their immigration status, much more vulnerable.

Rusty said...

You can't giscuss the economic effects of immigration without discussing illegal immigration.

AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
You can't giscuss the economic effects of immigration without discussing illegal immigration.


No one said you should exclude them, moron. Stop trying to save face through sophistry. And, more generally, try to keep up and not display such stunning stupidity.

HT said...

From the article:

"But that’s only one side of the story. Somebody’s lower wage is always somebody else’s higher profit. In this case, immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer. And the additional profits are so large that the economic pie accruing to all natives actually grows. I estimate the current “immigration surplus”—the net increase in the total wealth of the native population—to be about$50 billion annually. But behind that calculation is a much larger shift from one group of Americans to another: The total wealth redistribution from the native losers to the native winners is enormous, roughly a half-trillion dollars a year. Immigrants, too, gain substantially; their total earnings far exceed what their income would have been had they not migrated."

Michael K said...

"You proved you can't argue the pnt on it's merit so you want to misdirect attention to a side issue."

ARM is quite nasty today so I will avoid commenting. Switzerland is probably the most expensive place in Europe to live. That alone would limit immigration of unskilled, the type we are talking about with illegals.

AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
You proved you can't argue the pnt on it's merit so you want to misdirect attention to a side issue.


What would this "side issue" be, dumbass?

Hyphenated American said...

""Much of the problem with the US today is that people have no pride in their work. You've got something to say but not quite sure on the facts? Why not just fucking google it? Cause if you fucking did you would fucking find that fucking Switzerland currently has a fucking higher rate of population growth than the US, although it has been lower. Much of this population growth was driven by immigration, just like every other fucking western country, hence their problems with fucking immigrants. And, you have obviously never been to fucking Switzerland if you think they are even relatively free of regulations."


I googled it....
According to Heritage foundation, Switzerland is #4 in terms of economic freedom. USA is #11. And it's not even close - Switzerland overall rating is 81, and USA is 75.4. Switzerland has higher marks on property rights, government spending, freedom from corruption, monetary freedom, trade freedom, investment freedom and financial freedom.

And one more thing, until a few years recently, Switzerland population was growing slower than US population.

Do you want me to teach you how to use google?

Hyphenated American said...

"And the additional profits are so large that the economic pie accruing to all natives actually grows. I estimate the current “immigration surplus”—the net increase in the total wealth of the native population—to be about$50 billion annually."

There is an inherent assumption here - that schools, roads and bridges, hospitals, police and courts and jails, are not used by the illegal immigrants and their children. And that's one huge assumption.

AReasonableMan said...

Hyphenated American said...
Do you want me to teach you how to use google?


No, because you googled the wrong fucking thing. He was trying to argue that economic growth was not impacted by population growth. To quote Rusty, "It has nothing to do with population growth. If it did Switzerland would be the poorest country in Europe." He was wrong on the facts because he is a one note idiot. Why tie your boat to a drowning man?

And regarding the heritage foundation, think about it for a minute, the Swiss are subject to most if not all the same regulations as all the EU nations in order to be part of the common market and the Schengen Area. Does your image of an unregulated market involve being subject to all EU regulations?

richard mcenroe said...

Since his detractors, in both parties, are the ones bringing in the workers, it's not that odd...

Sammy Finkelman said...


"I find it to be ironic that it has taken Donald J. Trump to bring to the fore the obvious conflict of interest that exists between low-skilled American workers (of whatever ethnicity), on the one hand, and low-skilled foreign workers who wish to enter or remain in the United States, on the other"

The only things is, this is not true. It has been written about. And the truth is, theers almost no conflict. Adding additional people with the same qulifications to the job market, onlyreduces the value of their labor very very marginally. Now they don't go into why - just empiracally prove it - but the reason is that people can do many different kinds of jobs, and also tend to have different kinds of skills. If some people are competitioon for one kind of job, they are not for another.

Now you might argue - oh this ciuts the number of availabel jobs by haflf or wahtever. It does not. This kind of thinking is the lump of labor theory. But it is not like theer are so many jobs and aso many people to fill them - the job market is like people dancing in a circle - and new people inserting themselves into the circle, doesn';t makes it more difficult for older people to join in - if anything it makes it easier. That's why we have cities, you now.

And it isn't unskilled people or skilled people who are competition - whateve rthe new group is, if the composition is in any way different from the prrior population , people with similiar skilles to the new comers will very marginally be hurt and people with different skills will be helped - because there now will be a bigger market for them. But the peole hurt will be hurst very very marginally and will be aminority. and they area lso hurt by trade and by automation, or anything that changes the worth of the work they are currently doing.

And all in all, it is just plain evil to deny people oppportunity on the grounds that in so doing you are preserving it for some others. Are governmens economic conspiracies?

Sammy Finkelman said...

rhhardin said...9/14/16, 10:46 AM

America isn't a charity for foreigners.

merica isn't a conspiracy against the rest of the world.

And if youwere to say citizenship has economic value, then you should allow people to make money off it it - like allowing foreogners to work under your Social Security card, for instance.


wholelottasplainin' said...

"And all in all, it is just plain evil to deny people oppportunity on the grounds that in so doing you are preserving it for some others."

*********

Perhaps you would like to explain why the rest of the world routinely engages in this "evil" practice?

I think psychiatrists have a term for that kind of thinking. They see it in their patients who are having trouble "adjusting to adult life". As in "not adjusting to the ages-old idea of nations, or sovereignty, or borders.

Your "analysis" leaves out the undeniable fact that many illegals head straight for the welfare office. It is undeniably evil to forcibly take away the fruits of a productive ,tax-paying citizen's labor and give to an alien layabout.

You also omit the damage to society created by allowing employees to avoid paying FICA and other taxes by hiring illegals under the table. Disrespect for the law on the part of employer and employee alike is a recipe for social decline. Ditto when the government refuses to enforce its own laws, for cynical political purposes.


Rusty said...

AReasonableMan said...
Rusty said...
"You can't giscuss the economic effects of immigration without discussing illegal immigration.

No one said you should exclude them, moron. Stop trying to save face through sophistry. And, more generally, try to keep up and not display such stunning stupidity."

AReasonableMan said...
Rusty said...
"You proved you can't argue the pnt on it's merit so you want to misdirect attention to a side issue.

What would this "side issue" be, dumbass?"

You know. I've tried to be polite through this whole exchange. But you're responses have led me to the conclusion you really don't know shit. I hope to god you don't teach for a living.

Hyphenated American said...

"No, because you googled the wrong fucking thing. "

What you said, and what he said are somewhat orthogonal.... I was referring to what you said.

"He was trying to argue that economic growth was not impacted by population growth. "

The situation is a rather complicated. Given everything else equal, faster population growth would result in faster GDP growth. Of course, things are not equal, so population growth on its own does not mean faster GDP growth. Plenty of places in Africa have much faster population growth, and yet lower GDP growth than Switzerland. In general, immigration may lead to faster GDP growth, but even then, it may lead to slower per capita GDP growth, which is what I assume is happening in European countries with the influx of new immigrants from the ME.

The liberal welfare state needs growing GDP in order to finance its massive welfare system and the population which is growing older and relies on Social Security and Medicare (or their European equivalents). In reality, bringing in immigrants from ME solves short-term problems, but makes the long-term issues even worse.

"And regarding the heritage foundation, think about it for a minute, the Swiss are subject to most if not all the same regulations as all the EU nations in order to be part of the common market and the Schengen Area. Does your image of an unregulated market involve being subject to all EU regulations?"

I rely on actual data, not speculation. Yes, EU does introduce a lot of regulations, but:
1. Switzerland is not part of EU, although it is part of the common market.
2. Even among EU members, there is a rather large variation on taxation, regulations, and corruption.

This is why Switzerland is #1 in Europe in terms of economic freedom, and is well ahead of USA. I assume that people who did the comparison weighed all the variables.

Sebastian said...

@JB: "This is a look at the millions of men who do not work, are not working, have no desire to work, and WILL not work." Stop pushing fairy tales. Our hostess has told us Americans have a very intense work ethic, so this can't be true.

AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
You know. I've tried to be polite through this whole exchange.


No, you haven't. That is the point. You are a know-nothing, absolutely certain that you know the one real truth. A polite conversation requires a willingness to listen and respond to an argument, not simply dismiss everything without thinking and then repeat the same tired points ad nauseam.

AReasonableMan said...

Hyphenated American said...
I rely on actual data, not speculation. Yes, EU does introduce a lot of regulations,


Then you should be able to tell us which EU regulations Switzerland escapes. The Heritage Foundations has an agenda and its Index of Economic Freedom is a less than reliable guide to economic growth. To quote, "countries with good ratings [on the index] such as Switzerland and Uruguay had sluggish economic performances, others, like China, with poorer rating had very strong economic growth".

Anglelyne said...

wholelottasplainin': "And all in all, it is just plain evil to deny people oppportunity on the grounds that in so doing you are preserving it for some others."

*********

Perhaps you would like to explain why the rest of the world routinely engages in this "evil" practice?


Please don't encourage Finkelman. The last thing the internet needs is another sperg who thinks he's fucking Immanuel Kant spewing human nature/geopolitical reality-denying econo-babble.

Hagar said...

The Cracker Emcee said:
I don't think you've seen a house that's been finished with cheap immigrant labor or you're too young to recognize the decline.

I am living in a house that was built with cheap American residential construction labor with little supervision and generally high on pot or worse.

And I am a civil engineer who has also worked for a respected general contractor in commercial and government (schools, hospitals, etc.) construction in 100% union area in the Midwest back when.

Hagar said...

And spent the next 40-odd years designing and managing construction in New Mexico with union and non-union contractors. My field experience is that the important thing is to get the guys on your side. They know how to do it right, and will do so if you treat them with respect, but if you go out there and act like a horses ass, you are going to get treated like one. That is true regardless of ethnic backgrounds, but my experience has been that it is a little easier to get non-Anglos on my side. They love to show off.

Anglelyne said...

ARM: Ron Winkleheimer said...
"globalism is inevitable and the nation state is an anachronism and if you can't hack it then you should go off in a field and die"

As much as I might like it to be otherwise It is difficult to find a strong argument against this. This is basically what I have told my own kids. Being the best in your class won't mean squat if there are tens of thousands of Chinese/Indian kids who can do better. You have to measure yourself against the world, not against the few pampered kids who live in your local neighborhood.


Sometimes "what happens next" is pretty much beyond the realm of "argument", though. If and when "globalism" becomes too socially disruptive and destructive, "inevitable" economic processes cease to be inevitable.

There's really nothing new about "globalization", and the accelerated version we've been experiencing recently is no more solid and eternal than previous versions. If "globalism" were "inevitable" in a linear way, those time-lapse global maps of periods of war, political and economic expansion and integration, decline, war, disintegration, war, new political and economic organization, war, expansion, consolidation...well, they wouldn't look like that.

In the meantime, yeah, your kid needs a job. I just don't think the current "let's pit the billions of ordinary workers in an increasingly automated world against each in other in a borderless global labor market" is a particularly stable state of affairs.

Moneyrunner said...

I continue to be amazed by otherwise intelligent people who make statements like “I find it to be ironic that it has taken Donald J. Trump to bring to the fore …yadda, yadda yadda.”
For some reason the people that say this are admitting that they totally miss the mark. Trump doesn’t talk in nuanced tones; give standard issue political speeches or issues undecipherable white papers. For that reason academics or public intellectuals think he’s dumb.

It takes a certain kind of political and moral blindness to miss the fact that the open borders policy and the trade deals that both parties have been implementing has devastated the working class. People who, a generation ago, would be working as maids, gardeners, roofers, unskilled labor in factories have been replaced by illegals paid in cash or under the table.

People who assembled GE TV sets in Portsmouth, Virginia 30 years ago – all 5000 of them – are jobless. Ditto to the 2300 workers at the Ford F-150 (Ford’s best-selling pickup truck) plant in Norfolk. The latter happened when Tim Kaine, Hillary’s running mate, was governor of Virginia.

But the academic world is booming as more and more students are lured by the empty promise of good jobs once they graduate. And the market for government workers has never been better. The wealthiest communities are all clustered around the Capital. So the news of one plant closing in flyover country doesn’t register and doesn’t affect the policy makers. Those affected are just collateral damage and a few decades from now, at the most, time will take care of them. People don't live forever.

Anglelyne said...

Hagar to Cracker Emcee: "I don't think you've seen a house that's been finished with cheap immigrant labor or you're too young to recognize the decline."

I am living in a house that was built with cheap American residential construction labor with little supervision and generally high on pot or worse.

And I am a civil engineer who has also worked for a respected general contractor in commercial and government (schools, hospitals, etc.) construction in 100% union area in the Midwest back when.


I conclude from this exchange that the decline in quality in American building construction is due not to cheap immigrant labor or cheap stoned natives but is really all Hagar's fault.

SukieTawdry said...

Clayton Hennessy is absolutely right about Mexico. The government offloads its impoverished, uneducated and unskilled citizens on us. Doing so not only eliminates the need for social and education programs but also guarantees a steady influx of American dollars. The last time I checked, remittances from Mexicans working in America were Mexico's third largest source of revenue. Then there are the returning emigres who often will use the money they bring home with them to improve their native towns and villages. For the Mexican government, it's win-win-win.

So, what do we get? We get, or so we're told, the benefit of lower prices made possible by cheap labor. The flip side of the coin is the money we have to spend to maintain this system. Far too many of the immigrant (illegal and legal) population are among the nearly 50 percent of people who don't pay income taxes (and often thanks to tax credits, pay no taxes at all and maybe even get refunds on the taxes they don't pay). American citizens in this demographic don't really care how big a tax burden the rest of us bear (low prices-no taxes = win-win) and they vote accordingly. This is not a sustainable system. And when mechanization, automation and robotics really take off, we will have a mess on our hands that may make our previous messes pale in comparison.

There are jobs that many Americans feel are beneath their dignity regardless of remuneration while, apparently, a life on the dole is not. After it became oil rich, Norway was quite surprised to find that the work ethic can be bred out in a mere two generations. It's taking us much longer, but we'll get there. Or collapse trying.

BN said...

""I find it to be ironic that it has taken Donald J. Trump to bring to the fore the obvious conflict of interest that exists between...""

I didn't read the article, and only skimmed the very argumentative, combative, and nasty comments, but I think I don't know what "ironic" means any more.

That's kind of ironic, isn't it?

BN said...

Oh, wait, because he's rich, right? Or... Republican (putatively)?

Or... what? What is it?

Mac McConnell said...

Let's just have a moratorium on immigration for five years and see who's right on the economic issue. Oh, and tell the 11 million ( more likely 15 or 16 million ) to get the fuck out. ;-)

Rusty said...

AReasonableMan said...
Rusty said...
You know. I've tried to be polite through this whole exchange.

No, you haven't. That is the point. You are a know-nothing, absolutely certain that you know the one real truth. A polite conversation requires a willingness to listen and respond to an argument, not simply dismiss everything without thinking and then repeat the same tired points ad nauseam.

And you've been the model of civility. Arm the irony of your conclusion aside. I'd like to point out that you seem to have a problem defending your positions when someone asks you a pointed question. You certainly don't like have your accepted wisdom challenged. And I do listen to your arguments ARM. The tired, smug, hidebound arguments of someone on a public payroll.
I sat down this morning fully intending to apologize if I miss read your intent, but you're a cunt. You can't help it it's in your nature.
So. Instead I'm going to apologize to everyone here who had to wade through your shit. And apologies to our hostess.

Rusty said...

What we would miss out on if Uber didn't exist.
https://fee.org/articles/how-much-would-be-lost-if-uber-simply-went-away/?utm_source=zapier&utm_medium=facebook

AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
you're a cunt.


Maybe. Not every one has to be a good person. Still, better than being stupid.

Rusty said...

AReasonableMan said...
Rusty said...
you're a cunt.

Maybe. Not every one has to be a good person. Still, better than being stupid.

I wouldn't know.

AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
I wouldn't know.


But that is exactly what a stupid person would say. Clueless to the end.