July 15, 2016

"I am pleased to announce that I have chosen Governor Mike Pence as my Vice Presidential running mate. News conference tomorrow at 11:00 A.M."

Tweets Trump.

From the NYT report on the tweet:
In his selection, Mr. Trump... gains a partner who is fluent in the ways Washington works, a background that complements Mr. Trump’s outsider status. Before his election as governor in 2012, Mr. Pence had served for six terms in Congress and rose to be the third-highest-ranking Republican in the House....

Mr. Pence brings credibility as a conservative, which should help Mr. Trump in the view of some on the right. A lawyer by training, Mr. Pence has described himself as “a Christian, a conservative and a Republican, in that order.”...

He was at the center of a national debate last year over religious freedom laws that critics said invited discrimination against gay couples. In Congress, he pushed to cut off federal funding to Planned Parenthood.
ADDED: Here's the post I wrote at the time of that religious freedom debate last year: "Why am I avoiding this Indiana RFRA story?"
I've got to examine my own soul! I see it — e.g., here —  and I know I'm avoiding it. There is something to examine. Why is Indiana getting into so much trouble over a type of law that used to be extremely popular? I guess it has something to do with Hobby Lobby and something to do with all that wedding cake business. There was a time when religionists had the ascendancy, and their pleas for relief from the burdens of generally applicable laws fell on the empathetic ears of conservatives and liberals alike.



Look at how pleased Bill Clinton was to sign what was then perceived as important civil rights legislation.

The tables have turned. And now all the liberals are remembering how much they love Antonin Scalia. I mean, not really, but to be consistent, those who are denouncing hapless Governor Mike Pence should be extolling Scalia who ushered in the era of "Religious Freedom" legislation when he wrote:

We have never held that an individual's religious beliefs excuse him from compliance with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that the State is free to regulate. On the contrary, the record of more than a century of our free exercise jurisprudence contradicts that proposition. As described succinctly by Justice Frankfurter in Minersville School Dist. Bd. of Educ. v. Gobitis, 310 U.S. 586, 594-595 (1940):
Conscientious scruples have not, in the course of the long struggle for religious toleration, relieved the individual from obedience to a general law not aimed at the promotion or restriction of religious beliefs. The mere possession of religious convictions which contradict the relevant concerns of a political society does not relieve the citizen from the discharge of political responsibilities.
(Footnote omitted.) We first had occasion to assert that principle in Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (1879), where we rejected the claim that criminal laws against polygamy could not be constitutionally applied to those whose religion commanded the practice. "Laws," we said, are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. . . . Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.

Subsequent decisions have consistently held that the right of free exercise does not relieve an individual of the obligation to comply with a valid and neutral law of general applicability on the ground that the law proscribes (or prescribes) conduct that his religion prescribes (or proscribes).
Okay, I'm working my way through this resistance to the topic. What I see is: A different group is activated now and everything looks different. What I feel is: Exquisitely distanced amusement.

135 comments:

eric said...

Lame choice for VP.

Oh well.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Trump does not fear assassination, apparently, or else it would have been Joe Biden.

Hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Nonapod said...

The boring, somewhat safe choice I guess. Again, just glad it's not Christie.

holdfast said...

Not the best choice, but far from the worst (Christie, Palin, etc.). He'll be a good ambassador to traditional and constitutional conservatives.

I really want Newt for SecState - between him and Boris Johnson in the UK, it could be fun times.

rhhardin said...

You ought to be able to refuse service to gay people, under freedom of association, not religious grounds. The court got it wrong in the civil rights law, leading to a religious red herring.

Non discrimination applies only in monopoly or state-enforced markets, is the right civil rights rule.

Otherwise freedom of association trumps it.

MadisonMan said...

You don't choose a VP candidate who will outshine the candidate for President. McCain made that mistake.

Mission Accomplished for Trump.

mockturtle said...

Meh.

Chuck said...

And so endeth the Althouse benign fascination with Mr. Donald J. Trump.

Interesting to me, is that the Trump kids seemed to have liked Pence. Let's see how the Trump kids explain the Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act to their Manhattan friends.

Here's the link to the YouTube clip of the infamouse exchange between Pence and George Stephanopoulos. Which, I had thought, ended all hope of a national career for Pence. Pence, quite wrongly, gets destroyed in this exchange. Wrongly, because Stephanopoulos badly mischaracterizes RFRA laws. Pence was just too dense to defend it properly:

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video/gov-mike-pence-religious-freedom-law-29987447

Jonah Goldberg explained further how Pence booted his chance in the spotlight here:

https://www.aei.org/publication/where-do-religious-freedom-acts-mention-gays-or-lesbians/

BDNYC said...

Not a good choice. Trump is squandering an opportunity to win over social moderates who are concerned about trade, immigration and national security. The disturbing events in Dallas, Nice, Orlando, etc., only exacerbate the unease being felt in this country, and Trump has asked a religious conservative Tea Party type to be his running mate. What? Why risk alienating moderates and independents who might be looking for a reason NOT to vote for Hillary?

This is a mistake.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Shorter Althouse:

How Trump lost me.

Chuck said...

lol "infamouse." That's an interesting typo.

campy said...

Yawn.

Unknown said...

The problem with Pence is he caved to the LGBT crowd.

The whole "Scary Islam means we need to ban Christianity!" that some posters put forth here should really be off base. Who's more likely to protect you from Islam-- strong Christians, or power hungry atheists?

In particular, LGBT people should be hoping for Trump to win. After all, the Left has as one of it's goals admitting as many Muslims as possible with no vetting. Those Muslims think torturing and murdering gays is a form of entertainment, and so far the left has done nothing to stand up to them on this. The LGBT and the left only punishes Christians for bad think, but Muslims killing gays is 100% a-ok with the left.

Proof is very simple: every time a Muslim kills or tries to kill a gay or gays, it's 1) swept under the rug or 2) blamed on Christians (see, Orlando and the Pulse nightclub).

Hillary will do zero to protect the LGBT community from Islam.

--Vance

Chuck said...

Compare these two quotes, both of which I presume are at least mildly pro-Trump.

Just a few comments above: rhhardin said...
You ought to be able to refuse service to gay people, under freedom of association, not religious grounds. The court got it wrong in the civil rights law, leading to a religious red herring.


And just a few days ago:

Ann Althouse said...
"Pence--he seems plain vanilla, as in he won't hurt. I disagree that his "anti-gay" stances would be a problem--if "anti-gay" was a problem for you, you wouldn't consider the GOP anyway (Trump is at least currently opposed to gay marriage)."

If you are correct, I should just stop wasting my time taking the GOP seriously. I put up with a lot of social conservative stuff I think should not be part of decent politics because overall I might think the GOP candidate will do a better job on the issues that he'll actually be dealing with.

To me, the anti-gay stuff from Pence is beyond the normal traditional-morals positioning. It's aggressive and stupid. The media will kill him with it and it will merge with the way they're already trying to kill Trump.

But some of you conservatives are so bent on getting back to traditional morality and using political power to do it that you're ready to leap into the risk that is Pence. I think Trump is smarter than that. I see Trump as pro-gay and being cagey about it.


Wow.

Jim Grey said...

I'm from and in Indiana. And I've been a Republican all my life. And I'm hoping that Pence's presence on this ticket helps sink it. I was prepared to vote against ideological, arrogant Pence for governor this year, and I'll certainly vote against him on a presidential ticket.

readering said...

First do no harm. Trump dodged a Palin bullet not picking Christie or Newt (my personal choice as someone who wants to see Trump lose). Veeps usually do nothing for or against the ticket (Cheney, Kemp, Quayle, Ryan...). Pence fits into that pattern. Question is, how soon will Trump turn on Manafort when he has second thoughts about Pence for whatever reason.

chickelit said...

The news will compel Titus to "assume the position."

chickelit said...

mockturtle said...Meh.

Meh too. With the way things are going, I'm more interested in who Trump's AG choice would be.

Nonapod said...

Pence is a safe choice because he's the type of guy who'll fade into the wallpaper and will most likely have no net negative or positive effect on Trumps campaign. He's not a nationally known personality like Newt or Christie. He's not a bombastic gadfly. The only thing he's really noted for is the RFRA incident, which at best gives Trump slightly more credibility with some social cons who may have been squishy on him, and at worst perhaps slightly damages his rep with social moderates, but probably not enough to actually get them to vote for Hillary over Trump.

Chuck said...

Jim Grey said...
I'm from and in Indiana. And I've been a Republican all my life. And I'm hoping that Pence's presence on this ticket helps sink it. I was prepared to vote against ideological, arrogant Pence for governor this year, and I'll certainly vote against him on a presidential ticket.


I'd like to hear your reasons for that view/position. I'm no great fan of Mike Pence; especially not his elevation to the national status he's at now. But I can't imagine being an Indiana Republican and not supporting him as the incumbent.

I'm honestly looking forward to your reasoning, and less so any fight about Pence.

Is there another Indiana Republican you prefer? Leaving out Mitch Daniels, who we all adore but who isn't running for governor again.



PB said...

If you're going to pick someone from Indiana, I'd have preferred Mitch Daniels, but Pence won't hurt and solidifies Trump a bit with Republican mainstream. Let's see what names he now puts forward for other key administration positions - likely after the convention to keep information events flowing. This will go a long way for the voter as it looks past the sale.

Hillary will choose Tom Perez for VP as she's already signaled Loretta Lynch will stay on as AG.

UncleBenny said...

RFRA is tattooed on Pence's forehead, or should be. First he pissed off the LGBT people by signing it into law, then he pissed off the Christians for caving in, after being threatened with boycotts and huge financial loses for the state of Indiana. Trump just lost one more constituency, the few gays who might have actually voted for him. The evangelicals seem to be able to put aside their principles easily enough, it won't make any difference to them that Pence caved in to the gaystapo.

DanTheMan said...

Donald Trump could have named a dead crab for VP, and I still wouldn't vote for HRC.

Michael K said...

"RFRA is tattooed on Pence's forehead, or should be. First he pissed off the LGBT people by signing it into law"

Yes, I think that 0.01% of the electorate is lost to Trump now.

Chuck said...


UncleBenny said...
RFRA is tattooed on Pence's forehead, or should be. First he pissed off the LGBT people by signing it into law, then he pissed off the Christians for caving in, after being threatened with boycotts and huge financial loses for the state of Indiana. Trump just lost one more constituency, the few gays who might have actually voted for him. The evangelicals seem to be able to put aside their principles easily enough, it won't make any difference to them that Pence caved in to the gaystapo.


So those might not be terms that I'd use, but I understand what UncleBenny is saying and I find it hard to argue with the gist.

In addition to pissing off the homosexual rights activists for signing the RFRA, and pissing off the evangelical right for later caving on the law, Pence pissed off the legal conservatives for his incompetent defense of the RFRA in the first place. It isn't even that hard to do. Pence had no excuse, to be so ill-prepared to defend the law in the marketplace of ideas.

I've written before on these comments pages that I was actually surprised when I learned that Pence was a lawyer. He's got zero advocacy skills.


Michael K said...

Another "Profile Not Available" troll.

rhhardin said...

The problem is that civil rights law defies common sense in a competitive market.

Somebody wants to do wedding photography. They're into the man/woman thing and like doing it.

The state redefines marriage so that it includes same sex.

That's not the business the wedding photographer is in. They do weddings, and this isn't a marriage as far as they're concerned. Marriage is man/woman.

Not so, says the state: we've redefined what your business is and now you have to do what we want, not what you want.

So common sense runs up against the new law. This doesn't work out well.

Pence sees that the court has left standing a religious reason for not doing stuff, so hitches on to the religious objection. This also runs up against common sense. Why should religious people have more rights that normal people in what they do.

The right resolution is to get the civil rights law fixed to what it should have been. You can do business with whoever you want (both sides voluntary, in other words) provided it's not a monopoly market. A monopoly has to serve all comers at a favorable price. A competitive business does not.

Among the ways you get a monopoly is through state or private violence. You can't have that either, or you get a non-discrimation law on your ass.

Epstein points out that if you discriminate, you make less money, so lots of businesses in the South were eager to serve blacks but prevented from doing so. The same would be true of wedding photographers. In fact they'd hire gay photographers who were into gay weddings, like the heterosexual ones doing what they enjoy doing well.

John said...

I'm curious to see how Pence responds to the next outlandish comment Trump makes and we all know one will be coming along shortly. Will Pence nod and smile or look like Christie with that blank stare? How good of an actor is Pence?

Todd said...

Trump should have picked Chelsea Clinton for VP, if only to watch HRC have a stroke and a coronary at the same time.

The up-side is that Chelsea would be just as qualified to be VP as she was qualified for every other job she has held!

richlb said...

Should have chosen Tim Scott. Really big missed opportunity here. Really big.

rhhardin said...

I'm curious to see how Pence responds to the next outlandish comment Trump makes and we all know one will be coming

I can't think offhand of any outlandish comment Trump has made. Just things that people pretend is outlandish, because nobody is allowed to say what seems to them to be true.

Chuck said...

There is going to be a long list of who Trump "should have picked."

I wonder how long is the list of Republicans who quietly communicated to Trump that they had no effing interest in being picked.

rhhardin said...

Outlandish = ausländische, foreign.

Sebastian said...

Chelsea Clinton, Tim Scott . . . So, semi-serious question: could a candidate pick a running mate who doesn't want to be VP? I mean, do the parties have some mechanism to enable a VP pick to prevent nomination?

Michael K said...

Boy the "Profile Not Available" trolls are multiplying.

Blogger John said...

Blogger UncleBenny said...

eric...

Todd said...

Sebastian said...

Well it is not like the military draft so the person picked could just say no. It would behoove the party nominee to at least verify the VP pick wants the job so as to avoid the awkward moment of "and we are proud to announce the VP candidate is Joe!" and when Joe stands up he says "No thank you, but thanks for asking..."

eric said...

rhhardin said...
I'm curious to see how Pence responds to the next outlandish comment Trump makes and we all know one will be coming

I can't think offhand of any outlandish comment Trump has made. Just things that people pretend is outlandish, because nobody is allowed to say what seems to them to be true.


By outlandish he means the things the SJW media get outrageously outraged by. And that'll happen a lot. And when it happens, if Pence doesn't go full SJW, then he is a Chris Christie puppet.

See how that works?

eric said...

Blogger Michael K said...
Boy the "Profile Not Available" trolls are multiplying.

Blogger John said...

Blogger UncleBenny said...

eric...


Hey, I've been here for years. Even have my own tag! Woot!

I may even have been here longer than you. I'm also over at PowerLineblog as Eric with my Facebook attached.

Although in September of last year I had to delete a Google account I had for a very long time. So it looks fresh.

Michael K said...

"Although in September of last year I had to delete a Google account I had for a very long time. So it looks fresh."

OK, Sorry.

The reason I looked was a fairly dumb comment.

Chuck said...

rhhardin said...
...

I can't think offhand of any outlandish comment Trump has made...


I believe that I can be of some assistance here.

"I like people who weren't captured."

“[About General John J. Pershing] They were having terrorism problems, just like we do... And he caught 50 terrorists who did tremendous damage and killed many people. And he took the 50 terrorists, and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 bullets in pigs’ blood — you heard that, right? He took 50 bullets, and he dipped them in pigs’ blood. And he had his men load his rifles, and he lined up the 50 people, and they shot 49 of those people. And the 50th person, he said: You go back to your people, and you tell them what happened. And for 25 years, there wasn’t a problem. Okay? Twenty-five years, there wasn’t a problem... By the way, this is something you can read in the history books — not a lot of history books because they don’t like teaching this.”

[Regarding his pledge to use waterboarding "or worse," and the statements of far too many military and intelligence professionals saying that they would not obey such orders from a President Trump] "They won’t refuse. They’re not gonna refuse me. Believe me... I’m a leader, I’ve always been a leader. I’ve never had any problem leading people. If I say do it, they’re going to do it.”

[Regarding the Obama birth certificate] "I have a birth certificate. People have birth certificates. He doesn't have a birth certificate. He may have one but there is something on that birth certificate — maybe religion, maybe it says he's a Muslim, I don't know. Maybe he doesn't want that. Or, he may not have one."

[Regarding childhood vaccines; Trump on Twitter] "Massive combined inoculations to small children is the cause for big increase in autism...."

And from The American Spectator:
http://spectator.org/65482_bush-lied-about-wmds-trumps-outrageous-accusation/

“I want to tell you, they lied. They said there were weapons of mass destruction. There were none. And they knew there were none.”



Donald Trump is a Birther, and a Vaxxer, and a Truther. That's something of a trifecta among conspiracy theories straight out of the fever swamps of the deepest ignorance in all of America.

eric said...

The reason I looked was a fairly dumb comment.

I make a lot of those.

I also added you on Facebook just in case you want to verify who I am.

rhhardin said...

"I like people who weren't captured."

That's my favorite Trump comment. McCain had been trading on being a war hero for years. Trump is saying he's not buying the gimmick and you shouldn't either.

My own version is that McCain has a very strong sense of personal honor that attaches to completely random things. Nutballism with a pretense of honor.

Chuck said...

Just above, I meant to write "far-too-many-to count military and intelligence professionals."

I get overwhelmed when somebody tosses out a softball like, "I can't think offhand of any outlandish comment Trump has made..." I am more of a hardball hitter.

Chuck said...

Fair enough, rhhardin. I like people who weren't draft dodgers.

David said...

Seems to me a good choice.

1. Republican-Conservative cred
2. Normal person. Not a wild man. Buttresses the pivot to normal.
3. Experienced and able. Will help if Trump is elected.
4. Mainstream
5. Not from East Coast. Trump must win this election in the Midwest and Florida.

What kind of campaigner is he? I have no idea.

MadisonMan said...

I'm curious to see how Pence responds to the next outlandish comment Trump makes and we all know one will be coming along shortly. Will Pence nod and smile or look like Christie with that blank stare? How good of an actor is Pence?

No, you're not really curious at all. You're salivating.

Pence would know to say to the Inquisitor: Perhaps you should ask Hillary about this at her next Press Conference.

rhhardin said...

Fair enough, rhhardin. I like people who weren't draft dodgers.

Right -- and Trump would be saying don't trade on it. Perhaps you can agree with Trump.

What you do now ought not to get its virtue from something unrelated. You can be a war hero and an idiot in immigration.

Limited blogger said...

Guy's perfect. Nobody noticed. Onward!

MNichols said...

"I can't think offhand of any outlandish comment Trump has made. Just things that people pretend is outlandish, because nobody is allowed to say what seems to them to be true."

It wasn't outlandish to speak about his penis size during the Republican debates. He was only defending his manhood.

MNichols said...

Recently Trump claimed that "some people were calling for a moment of silence for the Dallas shooter", no news reports in evidence. Not one bit outlandish.

MNichols said...

Trump still believes that autism is caused by vaccinations, not outlandish.

MNichols said...

Trump said Obama was a Kenyan, no not outlandish.

damikesc said...

Is Pence going to light the world on fire? No. He's a solid, conservative guy. People have been whining that Trump doesn't know how to actually handle governing --- Pence can help a lot with the technical application of Presidential power. He knows how to get stuff done.

It's not a sexy pick...but sexy picky seldom pan out well.

The question should be "Can I handle this person as President?"

For me, yeah. I'd have no issue with President Mike Pence.

MNichols said...

Trump said Carly Fiorina couldn't get votes because of her unattractive face, not outlandish, or insulting.

MNichols said...

Trump said he could shoot someone in the street and still win, not outlandish at all.

MNichols said...

So many many more...

dreams said...

"Trump said he could shoot someone in the street and still win, not outlandish at all."

Everyone knows he didn't mean that literally, he was making a point. Give me a break.

M Jordan said...

I too am from and in Indiana. Pence is not an extremist but he is a real conservative. He is pragmatic. His worst problem is the way he caved after the passing of the RFLA passed to the LGBT crowd. Of course, losing Angie's List (who was in the process of building a headquarters in Indy) would have hurt. Also the NCAA made some threats to leave. So I forgive him a bit.

But he is a good man to the bone, a conservative to the bone as well, he, like his predecessor Mitch Daniels, is a motorcycle rider and he doesn't look like Dukakis in a tank doing it.

I think he was the best pick. Newt is a loose cannon -- do we really need two of them? Christie is a New Yorker -- do we really need two of them? And the other guys, nope. Pence will help haul in the Trump-Questioning crowd on the right. His social conservativism won't cost him a penny.

Henry1944 said...

Dreams,

I agree with you that Trump didn't mean he could shoot people literally, but do you think it was a wise thing to say? It sounded pretty dumb. He's running for President, not dog catcher. Trump has been reined in a bit by his handlers-his family, but he is his own man and I don't see him making that last, especially when he's under fire. Remember he's going to have to debate Cinton a time or two. I don't see him being able to keep his cool when Clinton traps him in his ignorance of the issues.

Chuck said...

dreams said...
"Trump said he could shoot someone in the street and still win, not outlandish at all."

Everyone knows he didn't mean that literally, he was making a point. Give me a break.


Of course Trump was just making a point. He wouldn't do such a thing. Not unless Fox gave him a yuuuuge contract to do it. He'd never go to the trouble of walking out into the middle of Fifth Avenue (the street he mentioned in his now-infamous quote).

Did you ever stop to think about "the point" Mr. Trump was making? It is something like, "No matter how stupid, how offensive, how idiotic I may be, my [name your percentage]% supporters would not turn their backs on me. That is how devoted/ignorant/resistant to facts they are. I could commit a murder and they'd still vote for me..."

That is "the point." It's a humorous point, for a Trump critic. And it is the sort of thing that you'd expect someone like Bill Maher (victorious in Donald Trump's $10 million lawsuit against Maher) to say about Trump supporters. As ridicule. For Mr. Donald J. Trump to say that about Trump supporters is bizarre.


The Cracker Unknown said...

Curious choice. I wonder if it has something to do with who Trump's research tells him all those undecided voters are. I certainly wouldn't assume it's a random choice.

mccullough said...

Pence looks like a Vice President. Trump just wanted someone from central casting.

cubanbob said...

MNichols said...
Trump said Obama was a Kenyan, no not outlandish.

7/15/16, 11:38 AM"

Indeed he is on his father's side. Indonesian as well from his step-father. Hs he ever renounced those citizenships?

As for vaccines and autism, a lot of lefties believe that as well. In the meantime what personality disorder do you have that leads you to support a criminal and traitor for president?

Michael K said...

"I also added you on Facebook just in case you want to verify who I am."

It's OK. Chuck makes many more dumb comments and, sadly, I know who he is.

"Pence will help haul in the Trump-Questioning crowd on the right. His social conservativism won't cost him a penny."

Probably true. Newt is just too old.

I don't know if Pence is a legit successor. Probably not, although by 2020 we might be looking for somebody dull.

Larry J said...

Overall, I Pence will help Trump more than hurt. Newt might've helped turnout in the South but Trump is going to win there, anyway. Most people here despise Hillary. Christie wouldn't help very much nationally. Pence is more likely to help in the Midwest. Seems like a reasonable choice.

readering said...

Everybody loved RFRA when it was about making sure wine sipping Christians wouldn't be treated like peyote smoking animists. But when it became an excuse for denials of services, well most folks identify with the ones being denied service.

chickelit said...

A certain MNichols directed "The Graduate" but I get the feeling that this MNichols went to troll school at Althouse.

MNichols said...

@ Cubanbob-
"Q: Does Barack Obama have Kenyan citizenship?
A: No. He held both U.S. and Kenyan citizenship as a child, but lost his Kenyan citizenship automatically on his 23rd birthday."

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/obamas-kenyan-citizenship/

dreams said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dreams said...

"Did you ever stop to think about "the point" Mr. Trump was making? It is something like, "No matter how stupid, how offensive, how idiotic I may be, my [name your percentage]% supporters would not turn their backs on me. That is how devoted/ignorant/resistant to facts they are. I could commit a murder and they'd still vote for me..."

That is "the point." It's a humorous point, for a Trump critic. And it is the sort of thing that you'd expect someone like Bill Maher (victorious in Donald Trump's $10 million lawsuit against Maher) to say about Trump supporters. As ridicule. For Mr. Donald J. Trump to say that about Trump supporters is bizarre"

Trump's point was that even though he might misspeak or be a little over the top, it was considered insignificant by his supporters given his willingness to speak in a non politically correct way about our illegal immigration and terrorism problems. His willingness to stand up for American trumped everything else. That is the obvious point and as to Maher, Trump supporters don't desire his good opinion and why should we since we have contempt for him and his fellow liberals.

Darrell said...

The buzz is that Pence was forced on Trump by the RNC. They promised to play nice if Trump went along.

chickelit said...

The buzz is that Pence was forced on Trump by the RNC. They promised to play nice if Trump went along.

Playing "Nice" is Hillary's gig.

I've seen the new Trump/Pence logo. There are carrots and onion rings involved.

chickelit said...

MNichols wrote: A: No. He held both U.S. and Kenyan citizenship as a child, but lost his Kenyan citizenship automatically on his 23rd birthday."

And we'll never know which passport* he used as a student!

And don't forget the book-promo flyer/poster which claimed his Kenyan citizenship.
__________________

*assuming he had two.

Bay Area Guy said...

Safe conservative pick. Maybe a missed opportunity though.

Can Pence help deliver Penn and/or Ohio?

Can Pence help bolster evangelical turnout?

Can Pence help sway Independents and swing voters?

Dunno, but that's what matters.

Chuck said...

dreams:

I gotta say, there's nothing that says to me, "I'm willing to speak up for American national values, and the security of the American people" quite like shooting someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue. Mr. Donald J. Trump is an authentic American hero. God bless him. Making America great again.

eric said...

I'm finding out today that #NeverTrump people aren't very self aware.

They are saying Pence told them and commiserated with them over the unacceptable nature of Trump. Pence, a Cruz supporter, was supposedly never Trump.

They say this to impugn Pence. His integrity I suppose.

But what they are doing is making Trump into the Master Persuader Scott Adams says he is.

Chuck said...

Can Pence help Trump win Ohio?

I spend an awful lot of time in Ohio. They barely know who Mike Pence is. They know their own governor, and that their own governor isn't even going to the convention in Cleveland, unless of course there is a major riot in Cleveland, which will probably leave Ohioans feeling even less Great about Mr. Trump.

Ohioans right now are being bludgeoned with two kinds of ads: (1) Hillary! PAC ads savaging Trump and (2) some very clever anti-Strickland ads because Ohio has an absolutely huge Senate race which will be far removed from anything Trump.

To win Ohio, a candidate needs to win the votes of suburban moms in Montgomery, Franklin, Delaware and Cuyahoga counties. And having been there, I sense that there is massive fear of Trump lurking in those places.

George111 said...

Trump's VP Pence, new ad.

dreams said...

Trump's point was that even though he might misspeak or be a little over the top, it was considered insignificant by his supporters given his willingness to speak in a non politically correct way about our illegal immigration and terrorism problems. His willingness to stand up for American trumped everything else. That is the obvious point and as to Maher, Trump supporters don't desire his good opinion and why should we since we have contempt for him and his fellow liberals.

"I gotta say, there's nothing that says to me, "I'm willing to speak up for American national values, and the security of the American people" quite like shooting someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue. Mr. Donald J. Trump is an authentic American hero. God bless him. Making America great again."

Its your choice if you choose to be deliberately obtuse.

rhhardin said...

Give pence a chance.

shiloh said...

"The reason I looked was a fairly dumb comment."

MK must be looking at his own profile ad nauseam. As well as the many majority cons who infest Althouse.

You're just a nosy sob who wants to make sure no lib undesirables get past your radar. Such a sad old curmudgeon!

Apologies to old curmudgeons ...

Darrell said...

Are those your sockpuppets, shiloh?
You seem pretty defensive and protective.

Danny K said...

It doesn't matter because Trump is the show. The mistake VP candidate would have been someone who themselves has a clownish celebrity affect such as Christie, Palin or Gingrich. That would be like pouring sugar on top of your hot fudge sundae, and voters would be left gagging. I don't know much about Pence, hopefully he is not a drama queen and instead will serve the role of providing the optics of experience and moderation. The best VP picks have been the ones who don't harbor presidential aspirations themselves. Not sure whether that applies to Pence. Cheney and Biden were both smart choices. Not having to think ahead to their own presidential campaign gave them the freedom to be truly loyal to their respective President's agenda and to maximize their support role without second guessing.

Darrell said...

If Pence denounces open boarders and amnesty as one of his first acts, he will be welcomed.

shiloh said...

"If Pence denounces open boarders and amnesty as one of his first acts, he will be welcomed."

Since Trump changes his policy positions daily shouldn't be a problem. Pence is just Trump's latest lap dog anyways, much like Christie ...

damikesc said...

I don't see him being able to keep his cool when Clinton traps him in his ignorance of the issues.

Small problem --- almost every global shit storm out there have Hillary's finger prints all over them. SJW idiots are going to be "triggered" because of her husband's past and her active defense of him the entire time.

...also, there is precious little evidence of Hillary as a brilliant person. Comey basically said she was so stupid he couldn't indict her.

But when it became an excuse for denials of services, well most folks identify with the ones being denied service.

The bakers didn't refuse to sell them cakes. They refused to spend their time and creativity making them a special cake. Don't see how that is "denying service" unless one believes that one is obligated to provide their service to everybody who asks.

unless of course there is a major riot in Cleveland, which will probably leave Ohioans feeling even less Great about Mr. Trump.

How in the hell would that be Trump's fault?

Darrell said...

One of the British newspapers had a video interview on their online site with a woman in Kenya who claimed to have witnessed Barack's birth in her village. Her story sounded believable and there were other witnesses. In her story, she was something like 13 at the time, she talked about being amazed that a white woman could have a black baby. Stanley was visiting Barack, Sr. during this time and she was refused a flight to Hawaii by the British airline because of her advanced pregnancy. How she got to Hawaii (to give birth) has never been disclosed.

The issue not only is citizenship, but actual birth.

mockturtle said...

@chickelit: I'm more interested in who Trump's AG choice would be.

Me, too! I'm hoping for Giuliani rather than Christie.

@rhhardin: Give pence a chance.

Good one! :-)

Chuck said...

damikesc:

I don't recall ever saying that any anti-Trump riots were "Trump's fault." I don't think I ever did. And I suspect that on many levels, anti-Trump riots do nothing so much as harden the resolve of devoted Trump supporters.

But devoted Trump supporters -- that 25% or 35% or whatever -- are already voting for Trump, and that won't be enough.

Hubert Humphrey had a lot of dedicated, organized supporters. And the 1968 riots in Chicago weren't his fault, either. But they left everyone feeling less than Great about his candidacy.

Saint Croix said...

Weird that he tweets his vice-presidential pick.

His plan was to surprise us during the Republican convention. Right? We would all be surprised with this vice-president, and the whole show would be about this mysterious, awesome vice-president. The idea was that our vice-president was going to be a rock star.

Instead he picks a boring guy, and we get a tweet.

Eric said...

How will Pence defend his pro TPP stance in light of Trump's anti TPP stance? Will Pence have a change of heart? I'd love to see Pence debate Elizabeth Warren and defend TPP, knowing how Trump feels about it.

chickelit said...

George111 linked...Trump's VP Pence, new ad.

The reviews are in from HuffPo:

Brilliant! Hard hitting! Game changing!

chickelit said...

I'd love to see Pence debate Elizabeth Warren and defend TPP, knowing how Trump feels about it.

Speaking of witch, isn't it about time Hillary announced her VP choice?

Saint Croix said...

Pence had a deadline at noon. That's why we have this last minute tweet.

Trump could not commit until right up to the deadline.

Now he's second-guessing himself and worried he got the wrong guy.

chickelit said...

Chucked up: Hubert Humphrey had a lot of dedicated, organized supporters. And the 1968 riots in Chicago weren't his fault, either. But they left everyone feeling less than Great about his candidacy.

So you are now comparing Trump to HHH?
It's a first, I'll give you that!

Eric said...

Why did Trump have trouble committing to Pence? I wonder what convinced him to do it even after his reported misgivings.

Eric said...

I wonder if there is any precedent for a Presidential candidate dumping their first choice for VP for another person?

eric said...

Blogger Eric said...
How will Pence defend his pro TPP stance in light of Trump's anti TPP stance? Will Pence have a change of heart? I'd love to see Pence debate Elizabeth Warren and defend TPP, knowing how Trump feels about it.


There's never been a person in the history of the world who has agreed with any other person 100%.

Pence, being the VP candidate, will have to take his disagreements up with the Donald in private, and tow the party line in public.

Chuck said...

Oh this is gonna leave a mark...

Writing at The Federalist (one of my favorite sources) David Harsanyi begins the laundry list of things that will haunt Trump and Pence for the remainder of the campaign:

http://thefederalist.com/2016/07/14/mike-pence-is-a-fraud/

Actually, a "laundry list" can be written a bit of scratch paper, right? This litany of problems for Trump will require a freakin' spreadsheet.

Pence on free trade; he (rightly) voted for every free trade agreement he ever saw.

Pence on Obamacare; he opened Indiana to the Obamacare Medicaid expansion. Pence on immigration: he favored the middle-ground approach to immigration wherein illegals could be given work permits and would be allowed to stay, with no path to citizenship. It is an approach I'd support, frankly.

Pence on Trump's Muslim ban: it is "offensive and unconstitutional."

It may be that Pence is not so bad; hell, I agree with Mike Pence's congressional record a lot more than Donald Trump's 2016 campaign. So I wouldn't call Pence a "fraud."

But I want this to be such a toxic sharp stick in the eye of so many of the commenters here -- grackle, damikesc, Michael K, and too many others to list -- that Mike Pence is absolutely everything that you boyz loathed about the GOP Establishment. Mike Pence is as Pure Republican Leadership Establishment as it gets. He is absolutely everything that you have been railing against in this campaign. Everything that you hate about the GOP, which you claim to have rejected and/or want to permanently wreck.

I hope you all fucking choke on this selection of a VP nominee.

eric said...

Blogger Darrell said...
If Pence denounces open boarders


Gay pirates?

Chuck said...

Hey I left out eric in my comment above. My mistake, eric. I want you to choke on all of this too.

Nonapod said...

If Trump truly is worried or second guessing his choice, as many people have pointed out, there's no possible candidate that he could have picked that would not haven been harshly assailed by the MSM. None. The only question is whether or not such a candidate will be able to A) weather the storm and B) not be super offensive to people who may be on the fence about supporting him.

eric said...

I hope you all fucking choke on this selection of a VP nominee.

Wow, such vitriol. Calm down Chuck.

Pence, like me, was a Cruz supporter. He is a part of the Republican establishment, although more of the Cruz variety. He is everything you should like in a candidate. Sure, he has his problems, but he is of high moral character, by all accounts a good man, and almost the opposite in personality of Trump.

If we can accept him, you should too .

Unless you think Trump is a Master Persuader and Pence won't temper Trump but instead, Trump will radicalize Pence.

Darrell said...

Open borders bad. Pirates worse.

Darrell said...

Either way it's an invasion.

Chuck said...

eric I don't need to accept Pence. It's not my ticket.

The Trumpkins need to accept Pence. He's their guy, now. And they can rationalize Pence's congressional and gubernatorial history, with Trump's hairbrained campaign. That's not my job. Not by a long shot.

It's so easy for me to accept "Congressman Mike Pence." I wish he was still "Congressman Mike Pence." I suspect he will be once again, in about January of 2019.

shiloh said...

"I wonder if there is any precedent for a Presidential candidate dumping their first choice for VP for another person?"

1972 McGovern replaced Sen Eagleton w/Shriver after it was revealed Eagleton had seen a psychiatrist for depression. It worked out well ...

Nixon 61% ~ McGovern 38%

ok, ok, Nixon would have won regardless.

btw, after 5 1/2 years of Nixon many Americans were suffering from depression.

>

McGovern was a train wreck just like Trump!

Darrell said...

Reagan was forced to take on Bush I.
Maybe Trump will publicly fire Pence on national TV.

eric said...

Blogger Chuck said...
eric I don't need to accept Pence. It's not my ticket.

The Trumpkins need to accept Pence.


Really?

Because you think they'll reject Pence and Trump along with him?

Why would they need to accept him?

I don't feel particularly excited about Pence. Seems lame. I was hoping for someone more controversial and exciting. But I'm voting for Trump, not Pence.

Why do Trumpkins need to accept him?

My guess is, theyll just ignore him.

Chuck said...

lol.

I can go back to adoring Trump supporter Ann Coulter once again.

She calls Mike Pence a "combo platter of disaster." And posits it as Trump's first major mistake of the campaign.

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/07/14/ann-coulter-pence-combo-platter-disaster/

Chuck said...

Well there you go, eric. A presidential ticket to get excited about!

We can always ignore the part we don't like.

Best of all, it will fit nicely on a snapback trucker hat.

Darrell said...

I want Trump to choose Ann Coulter.

Todd said...

Chuck said...

eric I don't need to accept Pence. It's not my ticket.

7/15/16, 2:47 PM


So Chuck, knowing all that you know of Hillary, she still has your support and vote? Or are you third-party (i.e. backdoor supporting Hillary)?

Drago said...

Always amusing when the paid trolls play dialogue ping-pong.

Lol

Good old "lifelong republican" chuck. Another day another valiant effort.

hombre said...

So Pence is the choice and the Democrats can trivialize the race to be about his signing a bill permitting Christian/Muslim/... bakers to decline to participate in gay weddings.

After all, if the election is not about genitalia - and melanin - Hillary might have to discuss policies. You know, like the policies that gave the world ISIS and put weapons in their hands. Or the policies that gave us a $20 trillion debt. Or 15 failed Obamacare co-ops.

Chuck said...

Todd; where did you get the idea that I was ever a supporter of Hillary Clinton? Or any Democrat?

I can hardly wait to find out.

Chuck said...

Oh my gosh; Drago!

How could I forget you, Drago? I meant no offense in overlooking you. I want to assure you, from the heart of my bottom, that you too are someone who I hope chokes on the Utterly Mainstream GOP selection of Mike Pence.

Todd said...

Chuck said...
Todd; where did you get the idea that I was ever a supporter of Hillary Clinton? Or any Democrat?

I can hardly wait to find out.

7/15/16, 3:01 PM


I don't know, that is why I asked. You talk like a "Never Trump" so I was inquiring...

Todd said...

I personally am resigned to a Hillary win. I don't think it can be stopped at this point.

Between:
- all of the people that vote party "D" cause they always have
- all the people that are wetting themselves over getting to vote for the first woman (vagina you know)
- all the college folks that don't know any better cause "power to the people" and "evil Repubs" and "racist" cause their professors told them
- all the people that are "never Trump"
- and all of the illegals and dead people that will be supporting her with their votes

I think she has a lock on it.

Chuck said...

Todd I am not "Never Trump."

I am "Trump is the stupidest choice as a nominee in modern history." I am "Not looking forward to the inevitable schlonging of the Republican candidate for president."

Todd said...

Well Chuck, if it is any comfort to you we will both be taking it up the bumm together...

Just as "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all of the others", Trump is the worst candidate available this election except for the other one.

As awful as I think he is, I would still crawl across broken glass to stop Hillary!

Fabi said...

I see that Real Republican Chuck is still spewing his anti-Trump stupidity. It makes me smile!

The Trump quote was prefaced thusly "They say I could shoot..." He was repeating someone else's claim, not making the claim himself. If you're interested in not being a pussy and a douchebag you can find the unedited video on the web.

I Callahan said...

But they left everyone feeling less than Great about his candidacy.

I'm not sure the two are comparable. The law & order candidate won in 1968 after all of the crap in the late 1960's. HHH didn't lose because of the DNC riots specifically.

In Trump's case, he can only gain from it, using the law & order comparison.

shiloh said...

"How could I forget you, Drago? I meant no offense in overlooking you. I want to assure you, from the heart of my bottom, that you too are someone who I hope chokes on the Utterly Mainstream GOP selection of Mike Pence."

Trump bringing the Rep party together!

>

Pretty sure I'm the only lib in this thread so hard to play ping/pong. Indeed, not many Althouse libs period, so it's somewhat amusing when a con is mistaken for a lib. Trump is to blame for the mistaken identity as many cons think he's a train wreck which means that person has to be liberal. A+B=C.

>

And it would be nice to be paid, but again, having too much fun so I'd feel guilty if paid. ok, that's a lie.

eric said...

Trump bringing the Rep party together!


One thing you can always count on, Republicans, unlike Democrats, disagree with one another. We aren't in lockstep.

This is why it's always better to elect a Republican. Because if Hillary is elected, her opposition will be Republicans in the Senate and house.

If Trump is elected, his opposition will be Republicans and Democrats and the media.

In other words, Hillary will be free to put everything on a private server again and Democrats and the media will cover for her.

If Trump so much as sneezes in the white house, we are going to hear about it.

eric said...

Blogger Chuck said...
lol.

I can go back to adoring Trump supporter Ann Coulter once again.

She calls Mike Pence a "combo platter of disaster." And posits it as Trump's first major mistake of the campaign.

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/07/14/ann-coulter-pence-combo-platter-disaster/


This is why Trump is the better candidate. He will get fire for stupid decisions from both the left and the right.

Can anyone say that about Hillary?

UncleBenny said...

http://theweek.com/speedreads/636320/donald-trump-reportedly-called-advisers-midnight-try-picking-mike-pence

"Donald Trump reportedly called his advisers at midnight to try and get out of picking Mike Pence"

Looks like the rumors were true.

shiloh said...

"One thing you can always count on, Republicans, unlike Democrats, disagree with one another. We aren't in lockstep."

Bullshit!

Whereas it's no longer true, the one political truism up until Cheney/Bush ~ Dems fall in love, Reps fall in line!

Again, Reps ***were*** always better at bringing the troops together for a common cause ie defeat whomever was the Dem presidential nominee.

>

Of course all that has changed and Reps are now the gang who can't shoot straight. Although it can be said that Obama has brought the Rep party together in their hatred of him.

>

Interesting the Rep hate for Hillary, when the reality is whomever Dems nominated Reps would be united in hatred er to defeat that person.

>

And thanx for giving various "implied" reasons why authoritarian/totalitarian Trump is totally unqualified to be president!

Unknown said...


FWIW, the Chief Investment Officer of my firm says that post Nice, Trump has it in the bag. He is a foreigner, but a level headed fellow.

shiloh said...

Re: Dem's not agreeing on anything ie platform, v-p whatever 1972 is a good example.

Eagleton wasn't confirmed as v-p until 1:40 AM and McGovern gave his acceptance speech at 2:00 AM when nobody was watching. Those lovable/loser Dems.

Vintage Dem discombobulation and '68 Chicago was another perfect example of kumbaya!

>

And you may have missed the recent event er Dem primary ie Clinton/Sanders as their hatred for each other was/is palpable. It was in all the papers and covered on cable news ...

eric said...

Blogger UncleBenny said...
http://theweek.com/speedreads/636320/donald-trump-reportedly-called-advisers-midnight-try-picking-mike-pence

"Donald Trump reportedly called his advisers at midnight to try and get out of picking Mike Pence"

Looks like the rumors were true.


So, you're saying the second bit of gossip confirms the first bit of gossip?

Seriously?

Doug said...

Althouse is like Andrew Sullivan - conservative, until some conservative fails to genuflect at the altar of Big Gay.

shiloh said...

Me thinks Trump was just pissed that his v-p pick leaked like a sieve and so late last night he was tasking his pea brain re: how can I surprise the media when they already know.

Oops!

Surely he'll shore up his overflowing dam when he becomes the leader of the free world!

Michael K said...

Well, shiloh may have slept half the day away but he/she seems to be awake now.

We missed you and your brilliance so we invented a dozen lefty trolls to imitate you.

shiloh said...

"We missed you and your brilliance so we invented a dozen lefty trolls to imitate you."

"We" and who's this we kemosabe. You and that mouse in your pocket.

But I truly understand missing my brilliance. Again, thank goodness there's so few libs here as you have trouble keeping track of 2 or 3.

Like Trump "we" don't want to task your pea brain!