June 20, 2016

"Omar [Mateen] and I... talked about the presidential election and debated our views of the candidates that were running – he liked Hillary Clinton and I liked Bernie Sanders."

"This banter continued through texts and phone calls for several months. My last conversation with Omar was by phone in mid-May. He called me while he was at the beach with his son to tell me about a vacation he’d taken with his father to Orlando the previous weekend. He’d been impressed by the local mosque. What happened next is well-known. We’re still in shock. We’re totally against what he did, and we feel the deepest sadness for the victims and their families. If you don’t agree with someone, you don’t have the right to kill them. We are taught to be kind to all of God’s creation. Islam is very strict about killing: Even in war – to say nothing of peace – you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants. You can’t mutilate dead bodies. You can’t destroy buildings, especially churches or temples. You can’t force anyone to accept Islam. 'If anyone slew one person, it would be as if he killed the whole of humanity,' says the Koran."

From "I reported Omar Mateen to the FBI. Trump is wrong that Muslims don’t do our part./We love America, too, and we're horrified by what our neighbor did." By Mohammed A. Malik in The Washington Post.

71 comments:

robother said...

"Even in war – to say nothing of peace – you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants. You can’t mutilate dead bodies. You can’t destroy buildings, especially churches or temples."


Now I know why this never happens in lands under ISIS or alqaeda rule. It really is the Religion of Peace, as proclaimed by Mullah Bush and Mullah Obama. Interesting that he did NOT mention that it is forbidden to strategically lie to unbelievers.

Terry said...

"No true Muslim . . ."

D.D. Driver said...

What's the likelihood that Trump makes an issue of Mateen's support of Hillary? 100% or greater?

fivewheels said...

I'd call it at 100 percent, and I'd also say it's about 95 percent relevant.

If we had a mass shooting by an avowed Trump supporter, do you think anyone might mention or read into that?

Laslo Spatula said...

""I reported Omar Mateen to the FBI."

Thank you.

Thank you.

The FBI let you, and us, down.

Maddening.

I am Laslo.

virgil xenophon said...

"Moderate" Muslims are moderate only insofar as they resemble American "Cafeteria Catholics" who manage to convince themselves in an act of supreme cognitive dissonance that they remain "Catholics in good Standing" despite ignoring or rejecting the majority of the basic tenants of their faith in order to function in a largely increasingly secular society. As a traditionalist "Pre-Vatican II" old Catholic friend of mine used to say after listening to some young co-ed from Loyola or Tulane proclaim their bona fides when they concluded their little disquisition on their loyalty to their modern version of Catholicism: "Congratulations, you're now a Protestant." LOL

exiledonmainstreet said...

Blogger D.D. Driver said...
What's the likelihood that Trump makes an issue of Mateen's support of Hillary? 100% or greater?

______________________

Hey, the British press is painting the loon who shot that MP as a typical Brexit supporter.

We already saw Bernbots beating up Trump supporters. Then Hillary fan Mateen shot up a gay club.

No wonder they're trying so desperately to spin this as the fault of Republican Christian conservatives.

What to do about the Left's Culture of Violence?

Rob said...

You really can't blame Marteen for liking Hillary. She's just so damn likable.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Has Mr. Malik spoken to anyone in Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, etc.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"The FBI let you, and us, down.

Maddening."

______________________

The police stood and watched as La Raza types beat Trump supporters in San Jose.

Obviously the shooting is of much greater magnitude, but the lesson the government is unwittingly teaching us is the same. We are told by the Left that we should leave our defense in the hands of trained law enforcement officials. When those entrusted to protect our lives don't protect us, what choice do we have?

Oh, yeah. Shelter in place. Hope and pray the bullets hit somebody else.

Original Mike said...

"We are taught to be kind to all of God’s creation. Islam is very strict about killing: Even in war – to say nothing of peace – you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants."

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?". I fear for this guy's life.

eddie willers said...

"I reported Omar Mateen to the FBI. Trump is wrong that Muslims don’t do our part.

If you'd called during a Trump administration, it might have done some good. As it is.....

Hagar said...

Actually, I do think the Obama administration's insistence on not mentioning Islam, jihad, or any other Moslem associated term in connection with "the war on terror" as the opposite of the intended effect, and it is exasperating. Just read the comments on this blog.

It also is insulting to Moslems around the world. Whatever their personal concept of Islam and proper Moslem behavior might be, they certainly are aware of these bad actors loudly proclaiming their adherence to Islam and that it is quite reasonable for persons of whatever faith to believe that this indeed is Islam, if nothing is heard to gainsay it.

Sebastian said...

"Even in war – to say nothing of peace – you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants. You can’t mutilate dead bodies. You can’t destroy buildings, especially churches or temples." As a doctrinal and historic claim, this is nonsense. Still, it is nice that there are Cafeteria Muslims. But the problem with islam is that the whole structure of the faith militates against such cafetarianism, more than in Christianity. Niceness in Muslims is therefore always the arbitrary result of humane choice, often in direct contradiction to actual commandments. In this case, note that he does not specifically address Mateen's actual targets, about which the Koran is less kind.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Get back to me when Catholics of any stripe run into gay bars shouting "In nomine patris et filii et spiritus sancti" before shooting up the place.

"Evolved Catholic," my ass. You're the Pharisee who stands in the front saying "Thank God, I'm not like these lesser types."

And that's all I'll say since your comments get deleted anyway.

Gahrie said...

This guy is lying about Islam. I suppose it is just a coincidence that the Koran directs Muslims to lie to unbelievers.

Original Mike said...

I've never read the Bible and don't feel the worse for it, but it looks like I'm going to have to read the damn Koran if I want to know the truth about what's in it.

Real American said...

in Islam, it's ok to lie about Islam.

glenn said...

The Dems are making a calculation that they can keep everybody in the current coalition, add the Muslims (after rushing them through the citizenship process) and become invulnerable. They may be right.

gadfly said...

“If anyone slew one person, it would be as if he killed the whole of humanity,” says the Koran.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Sounds like Mohammed A. Malik, the author and entrepreneur from Port St. Lucie is in deep dodo. Perhaps he should have written under the name, Salmon Rushdie.

Gahrie said...

I've never read the Bible and don't feel the worse for it, but it looks like I'm going to have to read the damn Koran if I want to know the truth about what's in it.

If you do, read the Hadith and Sura too....

Chuck said...

Sort of off topic --

But until today, I had not seen the days-old video of the stump speech that Trump was doing, wherein he was talking to his audience about how it was too bad that someone in the nightclub didn't shoot Mateen. And then, as if from an old audition tape where Donald Trump was trying out for the role of Sonny Corleone in the Godfther, Trump did the thing of pointing one of his short fingers into his forehead between the eyes, indicating what a beautiful thing it would have been, for the shooter to have been hit with a bullet right there...

The video, which almost seems right out of a Saturday Night intro is here:

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/06/18/donald-trump-strong-words-orlando-shooter-sot.cnn/video/playlists/politicians-respond-to-orlando-shooting/

Paul said...

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Paul said...

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah"

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."

Paul said...

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His cause"

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

Humperdink said...

We are taught to be kind to all of God’s creation. Islam is very strict about killing: Even in war – to say nothing of peace – you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants."

Infidels, on the other hand.......

SGT Ted said...

"Even in war – to say nothing of peace – you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants. You can’t mutilate dead bodies. You can’t destroy buildings, especially churches or temples."

Too bad about what really happens when Muslims go to war.

Michael K said...

"If we had a mass shooting by an avowed Trump supporter, do you think anyone might mention or read into that?"

If the mass shooting is by a Muslim, Trump gets blamed.

This is typical BS by another Muslim activist.

Terry said...

Blogger Original Mike said...
I've never read the Bible and don't feel the worse for it, but it looks like I'm going to have to read the damn Koran if I want to know the truth about what's in it.

But you can't always tell by what is in it. What is more important is the authority of its words. Catholics and Protestants regard the bible differently. Differnet Muslim sects interpret things differently. The ultra-fundamentalist Wahabi sect has a strong hold on the Saudis, for example, and the Saudis used their wealth to mainstream the Wahabi sect.

Unknown said...

Did I read correctly that someone from the same mosque that this fine upstanding muslim goes to, also became a suicide bomber in Syria? Gee, what is it about this particular mosque that has provided 2 different terrorists?

Fernandinande said...

Gahrie said...
This guy is lying about Islam.


Well, yeah, lying about islam is part of islam: taqiyya.

William said...

They never ask the Muslim activists for their opinions on gay marriage or whether Mohammed cartoons are protected by the First Amendment. I'm sure most Muslim are against mass murder. That's not the fault line in assimilation.

Oso Negro said...

I think the guy is lying. It is too pat a story and too soon. So there are at least two murderers from congregation. Maybe they should look into their dark little hearts and reflect on what kind of community does that.

Original Mike said...

"Did I read correctly that someone from the same mosque that this fine upstanding muslim goes to, also became a suicide bomber in Syria? Gee, what is it about this particular mosque that has provided 2 different terrorists?"

Yeah, how about that? But why do I fear that our law enforcement agencies are not permitted to consider that question?


John said...

Lazlo,

Yeah, it is maddening.

Also, Mateen went to a gun store and tried to buy a bullet proof vest. When the owner thought he was hinky, Mateen got on the phone speaking to someone in a foreign language. He then tries to buy ammunition in bulk. The store refused to sell that to him too and he left.

The store owner reported this to the FBI (I think it was) which seems to have ignored him.

I'm not sure if this is the same store where he bought the gun or another one. I thought the same one but might be wrong.

Nothing will happen to the agent who took the call for ignoring it. Had he done something and Mateen not done something, the agent would have been putting his career and perhaps his life on the line. MUSLIM HATER!!!

Pretty despicable in retrospect but up until Saturday evening, when nothing had yet happened, we could all understand why he acted as he did.

John Henry

Original Mike said...

"The store owner reported this to the FBI (I think it was) which seems to have ignored him."

I don't think they had an ID on him (in fact, are you sure the store called the FBI before the attack?). It was not the same store he bought the gun in.

Mark Nielsen said...

I'm really tired of seeing that line from the Koran quoted to prove the peaceful intentions of Islam -- Obama did it in a speech as well. Here's the actual context of that passage.

5:32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

So I guess how safe that makes you feel will depend on what you think they mean by "mischief" or "excesses" in the land.

MaxedOutMama said...

Well, every time I see that one quote from the Koran I immediately suspect the quoter. Because that is what Allah told the JEWS:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=158021
[5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Changes the picture a bit, doesn't it?

Mark Nielsen said...


MaxedOut -- great minds get irritated by the same things, at the same times!

Jack Richardson said...

If you want to know mainstream Islam in the Middle East from the actual mouths of Muuslims and Imams, go here: MEMRI.

mockturtle said...

We are taught to be kind to all of God’s creation. Islam is very strict about killing: Even in war – to say nothing of peace – you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants. You can’t mutilate dead bodies. You can’t destroy buildings, especially churches or temples. You can’t force anyone to accept Islam.

I wonder what version of the Qur'an he's been reading!

eric said...

It's maddening to me that we on the right are so fair.

Right now their are news stories going on about how racist and anti-Semitic the alt-right movement is because of a few trolls on twitter. They are doing their best to paint a picture using a constant barrage of stories about the racist, bigoted, anti semitic alt-right.

And here comes guys to beat up Trump supporters. Here comes a registered Democrat and Hillary supporter to shoot and kill 49 gays and what's the story?

That the alt-right is racist and anti-Semitic.

Good grief.

mockturtle said...

Ironically, there seems to be the most anti-Semitism among Sanders supporters. But this sort of propaganda doesn't surprise me at all. The Progs are counting on the dull, unthinking, knee-jerk leftists to swallow it whole.

Jonathan Graehl said...

Sounds like a liar to me.

Rick said...

From "I reported Omar Mateen to the FBI. Trump is wrong that Muslims don’t do our part./We love America, too, and we're horrified by what our neighbor did."

One Muslim doing the right thing is no more representative of all Muslims than one Muslim shooting 49 people. Plus at least three Muslims knew about the plan and didn't call law enforcement. You'd think someone arguing you can't draw conclusions about the whole from one specific action would apply that at least through the whole article.

sdharms said...

I call BS on this guy.

Bay Area Guy said...

Islam is very strict about killing: Even in war – to say nothing of peace – you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants. You can’t mutilate dead bodies. You can’t destroy buildings, especially churches or temples. You can’t force anyone to accept Islam. “If anyone slew one person, it would be as if he killed the whole of humanity,” says the Koran.

Theory v. Practice

Malik Mohammed may a nice man, a good American. But clearly he doesn't read the newspapers about what Muslim folks are doing to each other in the Middle Easr.

The No True Scotsman fallacy is alive and well.

Curious George said...

"you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants. You can’t mutilate dead bodies. You can’t destroy buildings, especially churches or temples. You can’t force anyone to accept Islam."

All evidence to the contrary.

John Henry said...

Original Mike,

After refreshing my memory with a NY Post story, you are right, it was a different store from the one where he bought the gun.

The clerk called it in as soon as Mateen left the store

The clerk did not refuse to sell him the vest or ammo. I don't know if that would have been illegal but it might have brought the wrath of the Muslim community down on the store. (Like the Indiana cake bakers who refused to make a gay wedding cake) Smartly, he told Mateen that they didn't have either the vest or the ammo in stock.

They did not have Mateen's ID and the video was grainy so Mateen was not identified.


John Henry

tim maguire said...

There are many millions of moderate Muslims who want a simple peaceful life. To go to work, obey the law, pay their taxes, raise their children properly, just like the rest of us.

And for every moderate Muslim who, like, apparently, Mohammed Malik, does the right thing, there are 10 who complain about Islamophobia and 100 who sit quietly and do nothing except try not to say out loud what they are thinking deep inside--that life under Sharia would be kinda nice.

MayBee said...

He doesn't indicate that he thought Mateen was mentally ill.

damikesc said...

Islam seems to be a lot of Mohammad saying something and then immediately saying "And God totally agrees with me". God REALLY seems to want to make Mohammad happy.

The Bible points out that Jesus' own disciples fell horribly short of Jesus (when he was arrested, none of them did much to help. Some scholars argue that Judas is the most important figure in the Bible). They were miles from perfect, even at the very end.

But Mohammad --- perfect. No faults there.

Seems, you know, a little self-serving.

You can’t destroy buildings, especially churches or temples

Yet they do so. They also fire at opponents from inside their own mosques.

damikesc said...

And for every moderate Muslim who, like, apparently, Mohammed Malik, does the right thing, there are 10 who complain about Islamophobia and 100 who sit quietly and do nothing except try not to say out loud what they are thinking deep inside--that life under Sharia would be kinda nice.

I know an incredibly nice and friendly Muslim woman who teaches at my youngest son's school. We were talking one day and she mentioned that it is a little unfair that people often look at her oddly due to her wearing a hijab.

I mentioned that Islam has a major image problem and it up to Muslims alone to fix it and many don't seem to want to do so. They REALLY don't want us to fix it for them, but they don't seem to want to do it themselves.

I then used the M&M analogy. If you have a bowl of 1000 M&M's and 10% are poisoned, would you eat any?

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Can you imagine if this guy was a Trump fan? It would be 24/7 coverage for the next two weeks.

Original Mike said...

I accept that there are millions and millions of Muslims who do not believe in the violence preached in the Koran. What I don't understand is, why do they remain Muslim?

American Liberal Elite said...

I accept that there are millions and millions of Christians and Jews who do not believe in the violence preached in the bible. What I don't understand is why do they remain Christians and Jews?

Rick said...

And for every moderate Muslim who, like, apparently, Mohammed Malik, does the right thing, there are 10 who complain about Islamophobia and 100 who sit quietly and do nothing except try not to say out loud what they are thinking deep inside--that life under Sharia would be kinda nice.

I don't think this encompasses the full range. A Muslim friend believes sharia is more driven by Arab culture and the extreme aspects are not mandated by the Quran. Her background is among the most benign possible for a Muslim in America: she's ethnically Indian rather than Middle Eastern, born here, and employed in a mainstream occupation. And yet even she (a) believes she owes a greater allegiance to other Muslims than to Americans and (b) supports Hamas.

hawkeyedjb said...

"I accept that there are millions and millions of Christians and Jews who do not believe in the violence preached in the bible. What I don't understand is why do they remain Christians and Jews?"

Tu quoque, the very best and smartest kind of argument! If only you had finished with the magic incantation "George Bush!"

MayBee said...

But wait. Mateen was watching Awlaki videos? Didn't we kill Awlaki for making those videos?

Robert Cook said...

"Too bad about what really happens when Muslims go to war."

Too bad about what really happens when "the good guys" (i.e., us) go to war.

Dave D said...

ALE:

A pathetic, lazy auto-response. Show me ONE verse in the New Testament instructing believers to commit any sort of violence on anyone? Show me ONE verse in the Old Testament that instructs modern day followers of Yaweh to conduct violence on anyone NOT 3000 years old and/or a dead culture. If you had opened your closed mind and read the references above, you'd see that Islam is chock-full of open ended commandments to kill infidels.

Robert Cook said...

"I accept that there are millions and millions of Christians and Jews who do not believe in the violence preached in the bible. What I don't understand is why do they remain Christians and Jews?"

Because most people identify as and remain "as" that which they've been raised to be. It would not occur to even the least devout of most people raised as Christians to repudiate their self-identities as "Christian." (I'm not sure, but I think there are Jews who consciously distance themselves from or even reject their religion, though they continue to identify as Jews.)

Robert Cook said...

For those here asserting what the Quran does actually exhort Muslims to do, despite contrary claims by Muslims, are any of you experts in the Quran and in the theology of Islam?

I don't have the slightest knowledge of what the Quran commands of followers of Islam, but I would not assume I had any coherent understanding of it by reading a handful of passages out of context and with no knowledge of the sources for what it is in the Quran.

Rick said...

are any of you experts in the Quran and in the theology of Islam? .... I would not assume I had any coherent understanding of it by reading a handful of passages out of context and with no knowledge of the sources for what it is in the Quran.

Why would this be relevant? What matters is how adherents of the religion understand these passages. We have ample evidence many interpret them as exhorting violence.

Gahrie said...

I don't have the slightest knowledge of what the Quran commands of followers of Islam, but I would not assume I had any coherent understanding of it by reading a handful of passages out of context and with no knowledge of the sources for what it is in the Quran.

Even if you fail to educate yourself on the tenets of Islam, all you have to do is look at the history of Islam and judge them by their actions.

Robert Cook said...

"Why would this be relevant? What matters is how adherents of the religion understand these passages. We have ample evidence many interpret them as exhorting violence."

What is this "ample evidence?"

How "many" is "many"?

How do you know that all Muslims committing violent acts today are motivated in their actions by the Quran, and why do you assume many of those "many" are not motivated by more secular, political concerns?

Dave D said...

Robert Cook: Did you even READ the links above to the Quoran extolling open ended violence?

dgstock said...

"If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both
telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to
accomplish through lying because there is no need
for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by
lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible
to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N: i.e.
when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone
who is preventing one from doing something
permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is
obligatory."

From "Reliance of the Traveller" a disquisition on shari'a.

Rick said...

Robert Cook said...
"Why would this be relevant? What matters is how adherents of the religion understand these passages. We have ample evidence many interpret them as exhorting violence."

What is this "ample evidence?"


Educating people who refuse to believe anything which is not politically advantageous is beyond my interest. I used to wonder why people with absurdly extreme economic views had similarly absurd views on unrelated topics. But once you connect the absurd economics to the requirements to hold them the relationship becomes clearer. Someone who cannot understand free choice outperforms central planning over long periods has to be able to ignore thousands of years of uncontroverted economic history.

Similarly someone who wishes to fantasize that there aren't many Muslims who understand the Quran to advocate violence requires one to disbelieve the motivations people engage in violence ascribe to themselves. The common thread is to simply refuse to admit any evidence is sufficient, and of course to never subject one's own beliefs to similar demands.


How do you know that all Muslims committing violent acts today are motivated in their actions by the Quran,

Who said this? Why is it necessary for all such acts to be uniformly motivated? You're giving the game away by setting up such an inappropriate standard, it reveals your only interest is denial.

We really need better propagandists.

why do you assume many of those "many" are not motivated by more secular, political concerns?

Why do you pretend to believe Muslim's political concerns are independent of Islam?

Original Mike said...

"Why is it necessary for all such acts to be uniformly motivated?"

All is Cookie's favorite device.

Clyde said...

Muslim, please! All I know is what I see in the news, and not a day goes by where I don't read about some group of Muslims committing horrific acts of violence against innocents. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, you name it, Muslims attack any and all infidels. What this fellow says might be true for a few Muslims, but it seems that across the Middle East, Africa, Asia, Europe, the Americas, Muslims and violence go together like pork and barbecue sauce. I don't think that Muslims have committed any terrorist attacks in Antarctica, yet.