November 13, 2013

Only "46% of Likely U.S. Voters believe the president purposely misled Americans about the potential impact of the health care law."

"45% disagree and think Obama honestly expected the law to work out the way he said it would" and 10% don't know, according to a new Rasmussen poll.
Seventy-four percent (74%) of Democrats believe the president was saying what he honestly expected to happen. Eighty-one percent (81%) of Republicans and 51% of voters not affiliated with either major party think the president was deliberately misleading the country....

Younger voters are much less critical of the administration’s response than voters 40 and over are. Most voters under 40 think the president was honestly mistaken about the impact of the health care law.....
This is great news for Obama, considering how bad the lie was, all the press it's getting, and the extra incitement to anger caused by the horrible website. I'd say he's taken the worst hits, and now has no reason to (pretend to) try to keep "promises" made to that small — what is it, 15 million? — set of persons who liked the — substandard! — health insurance they had. Triage, baby. The death panel says: Let those broken promises die. Palliative care only. The website is what must be saved.

The important thing — for those who want Obamacare to succeed — is to continue to pull everyone into the system. The people are well on their way to processing what might be new information — it's not true that some folks get to stay out — so ignore them while they work through their stages of grief. All the effort should go into the website, the intake point to the system that all must enter.

If you don't want Obamacare to succeed, you can keep pounding the Democrats over the lies and broken promises, but I think your hopes are in rooting that the website will remain in its permanent vegetative state as various deadlines come and go and next year's election comes around, and then maybe you can get your mitts on that pullable plug.

112 comments:

Tank said...

More proof that voting and elections are overrated.

Shouldn't those 45% be barred, as too stupid or ignorant, from ever voting again?

Michael said...

Yep Screw the 15 million. He doesnt need their votes anyway. The problem is that lots of his fellow travelers do need to be reelected and those 15 million are hopping mad. I am one of them. In my case I can afford the screwing I am going to get and life will go on for me without a glitch but not for a whole lot of people who are in a lot of trouble because of this clusterfuck. They just may take it out on the Democrats next fall. On the other hand the population is exceedingly dumb and can be misled again in a hundred ways in the next eleven minths.

The Drill SGT said...

I'd say he's taken the worst hits, and now has no reason to (pretend to) try to keep "promises" made to that small — what is it, 15 million?

actually, it's 50-80 million. The same grandfathering BS applies to the group market as well, but the postponement of the employer mandate slipped that debacle 12 months. And of course the impacts will be buffered by the employer soaking up some of the increases. Only part will be visible as employee increased costs, the rest will just come out of raises...

Meade said...

"rooting that the website will remain in its permanent vegetative state"

Shouldn't we rename ObamaCare "TerriSchiavoCare"? And remove the feeding tube?

The Drill SGT said...

The problem is that lots of his fellow travelers do need to be reelected and those 15 million are hopping mad. I am one of them.

The problem in vote counting for dems is that most of the winners already were solid Dems (e.g. Medicaid poor, and the under 26's, and the subsidized).

The losers? were split 50/50, but now shift into the GOP column...

net loss to Dems

Original Mike said...

Only "46% of Likely U.S. Voters believe the president purposely misled Americans about the potential impact of the health care law."

Mind-boggling.

chrisnavin.com said...

O=care supporters will keep pushing the moral arguments: We're all in this together, health-care is a right, or at least a duty and it a special category of its own etc.

...as well as cost arguments: rising costs and structural deficiencies required action and this action, while flawed is still the best, workable, necessary etc.

...as well as the political arguments: Republicans don't have a plan, they're obstructionists and old white males out of touch, the people have spoken we love our base and the base speaks for America etc.

Expect more pushing, dragging, stalling, fixing, blaming, pleading etc. because for many it's more than just an ideology or secular religion...

it's a paycheck, a career, a reputation, a job, a way of life...

Even if the die-hard supporters are only 20% or so of the population, they're THIS CLOSE.

RecChief said...

actually, as an opponent of obamacare, I want the website to work perfectly so that the rest of the crappiness isn't hidden behind a website

Original Mike said...

@RecChief: Yeah, I think the balky website is actually a God-send for Obama. It's a diversion from the cancelled policies and escalating premiums. I wonder if the website debacle was purposeful.

Hagar said...

If a substantial part of the medical practitioners and the public decide to go to some variety of "cash only," it is difficult to see how the Democrats can keep the contraption going, especially without the House being willing to grant funding.

Strelnikov said...

The 45% True Believers represents the Dem electoral base. They'd vote for and support a lawn chair if it was the Party nominee.

Also, and strictly by coincidence, that % almost exactly represents the size of the Free Shit Army.

damikesc said...

And when the kids are dumped from their parents policies next year because of the massive jump in costs...well, they will still not blame Obama.

College students should be banned from voting. Nobody this stupid should have any electoral voice.

Shouting Thomas said...

Sooner or later, everything is a basic human right, in the lingo of the left.

Here in Woodstock, the far left, believing that it has won the "healthcare is a human right" thing has moved on to the next target.

"Alternative and homeopathic medical care is a human right" is now the chant! Every quack New Age and feminist snake oil treatment must be covered by government insurance.

And, you're a bigot if you're against this. (In the same way that Althouse's proof that bigotry and persecution haunted gays was that some people opposed gay marriage.)

I know about this new "basic human right" because I've been asked to perform at fundraisers for it.

Original Mike said...

I didn't realize until a report I saw last night (and maybe this is in error) but you can still be on your parent's insurance until 26 even if you are not their dependent, even if you have your own job that provides insurance, even if you are married.

Is this true?

JRoberts said...

I find this article to be very discouraging.

It tells me that no matter how many times this Administration fails - and no matter how big they fail - they will still get a pass simply because they "meant well..."

RecChief said...

damikesc said...
"College students should be banned from voting. Nobody this stupid should have any electoral voice."

I wonder if the GOP could get any traction by proposing to lower the drinking age and repealing the 26th amendment? Congress managed to slip in the 27th without anyone really noticing. If millenials can buy craft beer at age 18, will they care about the right to vote?

My sense of '60s 18 year olds is that they were better educated, more articulate, and more serious than the infantilized 18 yr olds of today, no matter how wrong I think their conclusions were.

Henry said...

Is the president:

() Stupid
() Dishonest

10% don't know.

Freeman Hunt said...

Forty-five percent of Americans admit to being jejune.

Freeman Hunt said...

Forty-six percent of Americans demand june-ification of fellow citizens.

Ten percent demand better selection of daytime television.

JRoberts said...

Legal question for the good Professor and the other legal minds on this site:

When Obamacare was before the Supreme Court there was a fair amount of discussion regarding "severance" (is that the term?) that if a facet of the law was removed the whole thing would disintegrate. In other words you could not change a portion of the law without killing the law.

How does that fit in with all the current discussion regarding legal revision through legislation or executive order?

traditionalguy said...

The context will spoil the answers: 90% of Americans Presume that their President is a protector of the Nation from enemies, both foreign and domestic.

Obama is our enemy, both foreign and domestic.

rcommal said...

So, 45 percent believe he's not a particularly sharp thinker? Add that to those who know he's not, and, well, that's pretty damn...damning, isn't it?

Kansas City said...

Earth to Ann. When 46% of the country are willing to call the president a liar, it is not good for the president. This is permanent.

Now, a skillful and likeable liar can utlimately rehabilitate with a biased media, e.g. Bill Clinton, but he remains forever thought of as a liar. Even today, no one believes Clinton, they like him and to some extent respect his smarts.

Obama has a different skill set and a more adoring media. But his lie was about policy. My guess is that he is finished as an effective president (subject to possible success on particular situations or issues), but he will ultimately be largely rehabilitated by the adoring media. Although, I'm not sure Obama will be that active a former president. He will take care of himself by getting rich with speeches and books, but I don't know that he will be active on policy issues. I don't think he ever really cared much about policy or people and that is not likely to change when he is done with the presidency.

lgv said...

Ditto the Drill SGT. It's not just individual policy holders. Next year will start a whole new process.

I plan on dropping my group plan for my employees. The other option is to dramatically increase their share of the premium. This will cause many to drop the plan. This, in turn, will cause our enrollment to drop below minimum requirements for a group plan. So, I'll skip the process and just plan on dropping the plan.

Imagine you own a small business with 10 employees. Group insurance costs you $7k per year per employee and you cover 75% of that cost. That's $52.5k out of your gross pay. That's a lot for a small business owner.

There will be a tidal wave of dropped plans for employers of low wage employees. These employees will be funneled into AFA where they will get a subsidy. The proportion of AFA enrollees qualifying for subsidies will be well beyond the original projections and the costs will mushroom.

Freeman Hunt said...

"Survey Finds Young Especially Foolish, Old Unsurprised"

rehajm said...

And of course the impacts will be buffered by the employer soaking up some of the increases. Only part will be visible as employee increased costs, the rest will just come out of raises...

When the employer mandate kicks in, there will be tremendous financial incentive for employers to either move many types of current full time workers to part time, or dump their employees on the exchanges. Pay the fine per head and give a cash payment equivalent to what they were paying in health insurance and let people fend for themselves. For those employees eligible for a subsidy, it may be a very attractive deal.
Even more attractive for the healthy, since they can pocket the cash and do without insurance until they get sick. Employers may even begin to offer Aflac-style event risk insurance for unforeseen emergency care for those who choose to go uninsured.

Sorun said...

Poll results should've been broken down between the payers and the takers in ObamaCare.

Freeman Hunt said...

"45 Percent of Americans Pose Danger to Puppies"

Cedarford said...

Tank said...
More proof that voting and elections are overrated.

Shouldn't those 45% be barred, as too stupid or ignorant, from ever voting again?

==================
Lets say the Republicans have done themselves no favors by fixating on the website debacle and making that the issue they discuss in media the most. And not pounding home on the more damaging story that Obama did indeed know from his Obamacare advisors that millions of policies would be cancelled but instead heeded his political advisors that the lie was just too politically advantageous not to use 37 times, even in vetted policy speeches put out to the nation. Even in the SOTU. That is vetted for weeks to ensure no lies of misstatements ever make it in.

And the idiot Republicans who want everyone to focus on who new when of techincal web issues and why Sebelius on down did not bring in more Webmasters and geeks are also missing the huge story that younger people are mostly rejecting signing up for Obamacare and the big bucks they would have to pay for it. And don't give a darn about the token fine. Which without them, will make the finances of Obamacare that relied on near 100% youth compliance to subsidize all the older and poorer healthcare - collapse in a year.

RecChief said...

@cedarford - right now the most visible part is the website failure. Like many of the unintended(?) consequences of the ACA that some of us recognized before the law actually went into effect, the provisions of the law apparently have to be experienced to be understood. draw your own analogy from that last sentence.

Christopher B said...

I respectfully disagree with the contention that Obama has taken the worst hits.

The general consensus among most observers is that Obama isn't going to get a functioning healthcare.gov as an early Christmas present on Dec 1. The number of enrollments (even under the expansive WH definition) have been paltry compared to the number of cancellations.

The other general consensus is that there is little to no way to get back to the status quo ante Obamacare. Those cancellations (or transitions as the Dem talking point now goes) are permanent. I read someone who put it quite well .. the administration might not have been able to build a functioning exchange in three years but the insurance companies were quite capable of reconfiguring their business in that time. (btw, I work for one so I know this is true. We adjust to changing regulations all the time. It's SOP.)

That means that around January 1 there are likely to be millions of people whose policies have been canceled who haven't been able to sign up yet. Even if some sort of legal fix can be found for that problem it's going to throw several monkey wrenches into how the resulting 'grandfathered' polices are processed'. Following on that, there will be the thousands (or more) that discover they policy that they thought was compariable to their old policy doesn't cover the same health care providers any more.

Finally, remember that the one year delay in the employer mandate expires next year (as Sarge pointed out), and people are going to get the sticker shock at benefits re-enrollment time right around Election Day.

Beth said...

The full pain is still to come. The website will work eventually, but that's not the real problem. Wait until the new year and people start using their new "improved" insurance policies and having to pay for them. Also, wait until tax season for even more people to understand what the word mandatory means. Won't there be a place on tax returns to indicate whether you have insurance or not? I'm sure there are still millions of people unaware Obamacare actually applies to them.

RunnerJeffM said...

When you control a price of something by fiat two things happen: a blank market arises because producers cannot sell at a loss. If you're not a producer, you may think it is an option, but it’s not. So get over it. And because there's underproduction in the admitted market, there will be rationing. Its o.k. when its gas during for a temporary period like wartime, but healthcare? Let me know how that works out.

I still don’t understand why some folks thought with the president's promise; economic laws suddenly became outmoded. I mean it's like saying gravity is so passé. What am I missing?

Tank said...

RunnerJeffM said...

I still don’t understand why some folks thought with the president's promise; economic laws suddenly became outmoded. I mean it's like saying gravity is so passé. What am I missing?


This:

Tank said...
More proof that voting and elections are overrated.

Shouldn't those 45% be barred, as too stupid or ignorant, from ever voting again?

Tank said...

Don't forget 50% of us are below average.

EDH said...

I'm optimistic. It's early yet.

The original support for Obama, especially young people, is interwoven with a whole world view fed to them since they were very young.

It will require a wholesale rejection of that world view in order to reject Obama and Obamacare.

The reality of Obamacare sinking in is a means to an end, not an end itself.

RecChief said...

individual market cancellations now, employer market cancellations later. Both completely ignore narrower networks, a shortage of doctors, and the reality of fewer doctors accepting medicare and medicaid patients.

Seriously, I hope they get the website up and running by 1 December.

Cedarford said...

Tank said...
Don't forget 50% of us are below average.

=============
Below the mean, to be pedantic.

Original Mike said...

"Following on that, there will be the thousands (or more) that discover they policy that they thought was compariable to their old policy doesn't cover the same health care providers any more."

Question: Does the website allow you to know who the providers are before you select a policy? (It damn well better but, at this point, I have little faith.)

Tom said...

This is an unhealthy discussion! And people are really stupid. I don't have a lot of confidence in America's future with this level of stupidity.

JHapp said...

Why is Rasmussen giving Obama a break? Lying about the "impact" of something is very different than lying about something.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

So, now Congress is likely going to vote additional subsidies to the people who were "lied to" with an assist from former President Clinton who is urging a supposedly reluctant President Barack Obama to "honor the commitment".

Leaving aside the hopeless semantics that broken promises or commitments are not lies and that astute observers understood that is was going to work the way it turned out, and that the current President explained as much in his more expansive explanations, isn't this a perfect way to swindle additional subsidies out of the Republicans in Congress?

And the Clintons' get the credit which helps elect Hillary as the President's successor. The perfect double swindle.

Paul Zrimsek said...

They should do a poll about whether Dave Wilson honestly believed he was black.

Shouting Thomas said...

I talk to a lot of Obamacare supporters in Woodstock.

They aren't really stupid. That's not the problem. They are helpless against a world beyond their comprehension, and they know it. They want somebody to take care of them and insure them against harm. They don't know how to compete and survive in this mean old world.

Their belief that a benevolent, liberal government could care for them may seem stupid to you. To them, it's their only hope.

The Drill SGT said...

Christopher B said...

What you said, plus an additional number of people who now think they have coverage based on an incomplete ACA or Medicaid application or scrambled EDI transaction who are going to be turned away from care at some point.

or find out that even though the Hospital they went to for surgery is "in plan", the assisting surgeon is not, not is the gas passer. Both want their full commercial rate.

grackle said...

Lets say the Republicans have done themselves no favors by fixating on the website debacle and making that the issue they discuss in media the most … [idiot Republicans] are also missing the huge story that younger people are mostly rejecting signing up for Obamacare and the big bucks they would have to pay for it..

Correction: The GOP does not determine what issues are discussed in the media. The media does, with prompting from the Left. The best the GOP can hope to accomplish is to attempt to take advantage of whatever issue that would in a fair world be harmful to the Left that the media is trying to spin/ignore/obfuscate but cannot totally spin/ignore/obfuscate because the issue is too obvious. As in the present Obamacare website problem, for example.

Perhaps the commentor is watching MSNBC/CNN/NBC/CBS/ABC/etc. or reading Washington Post/NYT/LAT/etc. If he will tune into FOXNEWS occasionally he will encounter the news that the MSM spins/ignores/obfuscates on a regular basis, including plenty of airtime devoted to … the huge story that younger people are mostly rejecting signing up for Obamacare and the big bucks they would have to pay for it … and other news items spun/ignored/obfuscated by the MSM.

Mr. D said...

then maybe you can get your mitts on that pullable plug

As opposed to the Mitt. Nicely played, Professor.

As this goes on, the problem won't be honesty as much as efficacy. Obama blew up the health insurance system real good and it can't be repaired. Asking to have your old policy back is a bit like a resident of Dresden trying to re-occupy his home in March of 1945.

Mr. D said...

then maybe you can get your mitts on that pullable plug

As opposed to the Mitt. Nicely played, Professor.

As this goes on, the problem won't be honesty as much as efficacy. Obama blew up the health insurance system real good and it can't be repaired. Asking to have your old policy back is a bit like a resident of Dresden trying to re-occupy his home in March of 1945.

Alexander said...

So what you're saying is that there's oh... let's call it about 47% of the country, that will back the sugar daddy democrats under any and all conditions.

Hum.

Tom Gallagher said...

I think there's a profound distinction between paying more in taxes and being forced to purchase a crappy product. And mind you, it took more than 5 years for people to wake up to the Liars. Lying. Continually.

Renee said...

What if your parents so not have health insurance, of they are over 65 but you are still under 26?

Can parents be forced to cover their adult children?

RecChief said...

obamacare effect:
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=1976

It's only one poll, but this is interesting. Perhaps if the GOP hadn't shut down the government, masking the problems with the website, we would be talking about governor-elect cuccinelli now. This thing is THAT toxic for Democrats who voted for it.

AustinRoth said...

Romney was so more right than he even thought.

The brain-dead, low-information voters are going to keep the D's in power no matter how socialist, fascist, and destructive to the county as a whole they are, simply because they worship at the alter of cults of personality.

We are becoming Russia, in so many sad, depressing ways.

Cedarford said...

Christopher B - "The other general consensus is that there is little to no way to get back to the status quo ante Obamacare. Those cancellations (or transitions as the Dem talking point now goes) are permanent."

Yes, and for 20 years before Obamacare, our leaders knew the bizarre US "employers will handle healthcare" system was slowly collapsing and cost 60-80% more per capita than equivalent healthcare in Germany, Japan, France. And our deindustrialization, loss of large company jobs, handing out top level healthcare for free to the illegals, welfare underclass, and slackers that ensured they spent everything and had nothing to lose if they suddenly had huge medical bills - was collapsing the system.

HW Bush was busy with his "New World Order" and didn't look at or lead on economic issues like he should have. After Hillarycare blew up on him, Clinton saw it was a political loser and thought he could kick the can down the road and it would be the next guys problem. The next guy thought he was the American Churchill and nothing mattered except safety from Terrahist Evildoers and the "Heroes" liberating the Noble Muslim Freedom Lovers and transforming their nations into new pro-West, pro-Israel nations as happy and prosperous as Denmark while all the women were liberated. His one healthcare plan was for wealthy people with lots of disposable income to lard up money in tax free accounts to handle their co-pays and elective stuff like aromatherapy, bigger tits and fertility clinics for top execs in their 40s.

And after that idiot, we had a choice between a stupid warmonger and a slick piece of shit that would at least keep us out of new major wars...and possibly might fix what the bankers, CEOs, and jobs outsourcers had done to wreck the US economy. And said unlike Republicans, fixing healthcare was urgent and the system had to become affordable.
(Like most things, the slick Jivester was lying his skinny ass off about).

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Moreover, if the affected people with individual plans are allowed to either keep them or receive a transition subsidy, then in the end the President didn't lie. He just modified the method by which the promise was kept.

Joe said...

Count me among those who believe that Obama didn't intentionally lie--he truly believed what he said when he said it. Obama believes whatever his reality is at any given moment. Obama believes that saying "make it so" really does "make it so." In other words, Obama is a genuinely stupid, delusional narcissistic man--I said that when I first heard him campaign in 2007 and nothing has since dissuaded me otherwise.

Gahrie said...

Congress managed to slip in the 27th without anyone really noticing

The 27th Amendment is a testement to the principle that nothing in government ever dies.

It was first submitted in 1789 by James Madison as part of a package of twelve amendments. Ten of them were almost immediately ratified and became the Bill of Rights. It took 200 years more to get enough states to ratify the 27th Amendment, and it was a state by state fight, so easy to overlook on a national level. Congress was not happy when it was ratified, and tried at first to get it nullified.

Cedarford said...

The situation is that the old system is destroyed (individual market this year, employer-based for 10s of millions of others next year.) And millions back then denied insurance over pre-existing conditions or the fact they were in that unique American condition of bankruptcy caused by health issues. And a system that cost us 50-80% more for healthcare and drugs per capita than nations with similar quality healthcare. And was already fiscally failing.

We Can't Go Back to What Was Broken and Breaking Down Further Before Obamacare and Obamacare Finished Off!

It looks like Obamacare is going in the grave.

That leaves single payer. Which has several well-functioning national models with decades of experience running. We now really have no choice but to go there. It's the greatest good for the greatest number. It will be fought by well-heeled special interests groups from the AMA to Big Pharma to the lobbying groups for millionaire hospital administrators and nursing home entrepreneurs.

Gahrie said...

By the way, the one that is still out there, and could technically be ratified and come into force one day, deals with how the seats in the House of Representatives will be apportioned among the States.

Hyphenated American said...

The best thing Obama can do now is rename the "affordable care act" into the "adorable care act" and add hundreds of photos of cats and dogs to the obamacare website. I don't think there is anything else they can do now to increase its popularity.

Original Mike said...

"Moreover, if the affected people with individual plans are allowed to either keep them or receive a transition subsidy, then in the end the President didn't lie."

Obama also promised that ObamaCare wouldn't add "one dime" to the debt. It was a lie then (10 years of income but only 7 years of outgo, etc.), and would be an even bigger lie with your "transition subsidies."

But please keep spinning this turd, it's entertaining.

Tank said...

Cedarford said...

Tank said...
Don't forget 50% of us are below average.

=============
Below the mean, to be pedantic.


Touche'

Of course, if I said that, even more than 50% would not get it.

Broomhandle said...

I don't believe Obama knowingly lied either. Beyond giving the speeches he was told to give and making the phone calls he was told to make, he had nothing to do with formulating this disastrous policy. How could anyone observe him for the last five years and think he's capable of creating anything?

Original Mike said...

"Moreover, if the affected people with individual plans are allowed to either keep them or receive a transition subsidy, then in the end the President didn't lie."

If you are caught in a lie, and subsequently make restitution for damages, you still lied!

Gahrie said...

There is a not so insignificant chance (someone filed a court challenge in 2013 that the US Supreme Court refused to hear...this time) that at any moment we could be faced with the prospect of an amendment to the Constitution which would demand an immediate increase in the House of Representatives from 435 to 6,000 or so.

Even if the court challenge is never heard (that deals with whether or not Conn. ratified this amendment) the national archivist could suddenly decide to delare the amendment ratified (as happened in 1992 with the 27th Amendment) or someone could persuade enough state legislatures to pass the amendment to satisy the two-thirds requirement today.

DanTheMan said...

>>Only "46% of Likely U.S. Voters believe the president purposely misled Americans about the potential impact of the health care law."

So. Romney's 47% was only off by 1% then.

Jody said...

Tank said...
Don't forget 50% of us are below average.

=============
Cedarford said...
Below the mean, to be pedantic

=============
I see your pedantry, and I'll raise!!!

Median not mean.

Any percentage of the population can be below the mean, e.g., the mean of 1,2,3,4,5,100 is... 19 and change and 83% is below the mean.

The median, however, is 3.5 and 3/6 are below the median.

See... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median

Also for added pedantry, the average is the arithmetic mean (as opposed to, e.g., the geometric mean)

Carnifex said...

With 95% of the blacks, 90% of the Mexicans, and 80% of the white dummies, I'm surprised the figure isn't lower.

IQ testing should be a requirement of voting. I notice no one worried about Terri Schiavo's vote, so why worry about the rest of the brain dead.

Or better than IQ testing (because that's RACISTS), just make change for a dollar. In your head. Aaaaah hell, just make change period.

"Man..."

"Honkie ass white money!...Mo fo...Wha' do sebenty-five take away dis brown thing here come out to?"

"Pardone me. No hablo englais, negro."

"Ohh man!!!! Whoa!! Didj jew jus' call him a nig...a... an "N" word? Bitchin' Dude. Right on! Here lil' brown bro', take a hit off this AWESOME ganje!"

Paco Wové said...

"Below the mean, to be pedantic. "

Below the median, to be even pedanticker.

Paco Wové said...

Damn. Jody was pedanticker and faster, too.

Tank said...

OK, now I have to go back 45 years to a math review.

Carnifex said...

"Remember Jerry. If you believe in the lie, it's not a lie!"

Kirk Parker said...

Gack, C4, your twisted history is nothing short of reprehensible. Rather than Obama wisely and deeply thinking about the serious issue of healthcare, his "concern" came about as a throwaway line in an early primary-season debate.

madAsHell said...

Seriously, I hope they get the website up and running by 1 December.

Not a chance.

If you comb the computer forums where people ask for help, then you can find questions from the Obamacare team. They've even posted production code, and asked "why doesn't it work".

I'll bet the IRS is still using COBOL on IBM 360 or 370 machines.

That dog don't hunt.

Sigivald said...

"Is he a liar or just an idiot?" is not quite the thing a President wants asked about him so broadly...

Leit Bart said...

My bet is the hits keep coming, good and hard. The Dems on Capitol Hill now see their own blood in the water. Some of them knew these cancellations and premium hikes were coming and some were too stupid to know. Either way, Billary's given them permission to bolt.

Obama must be fervently praying that the courts save him -- by ruling there can be no federal subsidies in states that opted out of Obamacare. That would be the final blow.

Then he will blame the evil Republican governors who denied their people subsidies and refused to expand Medicaid. "It all would have worked perfectly if everyone had been allowed to sign up and swim in the big pool!" the Dems will cry. And sadly, just like Charlie Brown and the football, the GOP will never see it coming.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/federal-health-reform-news.aspx#courts

RecChief said...

@madashell
yes I know it won't happen. my point is that what people are interacting with right now is a broken website. The WhiteHouse says that everything flows from the website, that once the website is fixed all will be well. I don't think all will be well even if the website works like Expedia.com. But because that is what people are interacting with, that is what gets focused on, not the shit sandwich that will be plain to see once the website is not the focus.

Tank said...

The important thing is that President Stompy Feet is darned mad about this thing. Darned mad.

Why can't he just eat his pancake, or kill someone, you know, the things he's good at?

exhelodrvr1 said...

Yep - a lot of gullible people get to vote. But at least we have a black president. That's the important thing.

Michael K said...

"If you don't want Obamacare to succeed, you can keep pounding the Democrats over the lies and broken promises"

No, you just wait. This will all come crashing down. Somebody has warned Feinstein and that is why she is jumping ship even though she isn't up for election next year.

The website is a symptom of the chaos behind it.

Michael K said...

"That leaves single payer. Which has several well-functioning national models with decades of experience running. We now really have no choice but to go there."

Actually, if they made single payer an option, I wouldn't fight it. Of course, that means they would have to convince Congress to keep funding it and the rationing to keep it running.

Having a free choice of private insurance and a health IRA would take a lot of the heat off.

I don't think these clowns can set up a single payer. Doctors are fleeing Medicare and they would quit faster if the program turned into another Medicaid. Especially if they had the option of cash practice.

cubanbob said...

Single payer, what a joke. Unionized doctors is what you will have and the upper middle class will still get private doctors and hospitals like they do in the UK.

Now as for single-payer, from a legal perspective didn't NFIB vs. Sebillius pretty much ruled that out in terms of a mandate?

damikesc said...

That leaves single payer. Which has several well-functioning national models with decades of experience running.

So government fucks something up royally and your solution is MORE government to fix it?

That is the dumbest idea I've ever heard.

Brando said...

I don't think it was a "knowing" lie, in the sense that he was saying to himself "I'm telling them all something that isn't true". He likely convinced himself that since the ACA doesn't directly tell anyone that they have to change their current health plan--but rather creates the conditions by which the insurers must do so--then people do get to keep their plan. After all, an insurer can change your plan under pre-ACA law, so how is it any different if they can do so under ACA? Sure, the ACA may create requirements and restrictions that increase the chances that the insurers will change people's plans and drop coverage--but surely people understand this as well!

That, or he didn't actually read the damn thing and by "leading from behind" he preferred to leave all the heavy lifting to Reid and Pelosi.

hombre said...

So 46% believe he mistakenly stated this, what, 28 times, about his legacy program and just didn't know and nobody corrected him.

We have become a stupid people and deserve to be led by posturing buffoons.

Additionally, it isn't about "wanting" or "not wanting" Obamacare to work for people who believe there is substance over and above politics.

Calling attention to Obamacare's failings should be intended to minimize potential damage. We know that the Administration will lie to cover up its faults right up to the point that the system cannot recover - regardless of the fact that 46% of Rasmussen's target population are stupid enough to believe otherwise (or duplicitous enough to claim they do).

rhhardin said...

Obama didn't purposely mislead, just gave a speech that he thought would work.

Misleading doesn't enter the thought. It's about working.'

You're not actually people.

damikesc said...

I don't think it was a "knowing" lie, in the sense that he was saying to himself "I'm telling them all something that isn't true".

In 07, maybe. He was given plenty of info about the problems while lying for the last few years.

Freeman Hunt said...

Where is the 45%? I assume they're running around naked and starving, unable to care for themselves.

Freeman Hunt said...

Single payer won't work here. Anyone think our bureaucrats are of the caliber to run something like that. Please. Look at the job they're doing now.

n.n said...

I wonder how this number correlates with the number who are pro-abortion/choice. While Obamacare's website is a burden, it is Obamacare's clump of policies and regulations which are not viable, and should therefore be aborted.

Cedarford said...

Michael K - "I don't think these clowns can set up a single payer. Doctors are fleeing Medicare and they would quit faster if the program turned into another Medicaid. Especially if they had the option of cash practice."

================
Regrettably, Freedom!! sometimes has compromises. Like laws saying that you have to allow black people to use or patronize your business, even if you would like to bar them as bad for business. Or hospitals required by law to treat ER indigents or they lose accreditation.

Doctors are not Gods. They start dumping all Medicare patients, states can pass laws to yank their license to practice. And lose equity in joint proctice LLCs. Plus end their lucrative active management in medical services firms that "use" the license as part of the business (owners of testing labs requiring a MD to oversee, medical prothesis that need drugs prescribed, etc.)

If they say they will then just quit and take their millions and play golf, unless they have their way....We just hire in all the overseas docs happy to work and accept Medicare/Medicaid patients. Plus we gain skilled and educated immigrants and high IQ familys as opposed to the dregs of the rest of the world we typically take in.

Inga said...

Cedarford, excellent observation. But I guarantee you they think it will never happen. It can't happen fast enough.

Cedarford said...

damikesc said...
That leaves single payer. Which has several well-functioning national models with decades of experience running.

So government fucks something up royally and your solution is MORE government to fix it?

That is the dumbest idea I've ever heard

=============
I think the public has long sickened of the simplistic Tea Party slogan that Gummint fucks everything up - as opposed to the Wall Street crowd of Free Market, Private Sector Heroes.

Truth is they have profound mistrust of both. The private sector that can build nifty iPhones in China, but destroyed half of US manufacturing jobs. The government that can build a superhighway system using private contractors, but cant build a website. The private banking sector that nearly destroyed the financial system once deregulated vs. a government that has kept Social Security viable for 80 years.

Generally though, people recognize that both the private sector and the government can recognize and replicate functions or products that other firms or national governments have devised and gotten to work well over the years.
And certain things globally, private sector companies do best and other things, globally, fall to government because the people believe government does it best.

Tea Party extremists and the likes of communists believe otherwise, but they are not mainstream.


C Stanley said...

It's true that the percentage should be higher, but still, how bad does your presidency have to be for it to be good news that the fraction of Americans who believe you're a goddamned liar is slighter under half?

Original Mike said...

"Cedarford, excellent observation."

You do know who you're agreeing with; right Inga?

Inga said...

OM, a commenter named Cedarford? Unless you know something about him I don't. We don't always have to agree with everything someone says, sometimes we agree with a point here or there.

cubanbob said...

Obama must be fervently praying that the courts save him -- by ruling there can be no federal subsidies in states that opted out of Obamacare. That would be the final blow. "

Smart catch. But Obama will then have to deal with the possibility that courts may rule that the states getting the exchange funding are receiving an unapportioned tax funding.

I wonder how many of those who advocate single payer for doctors will tolerate that for themselves with regards to their occupations.

n.n said...

Obamacare is the Medicaid option. The Medicare alternative would require economic development. They proposed Obamacare because the alternative is hard and would not provide the instant gratification demanded by their supporters.

CWJ said...

Inga, I take your last point and agree. But what exactly are you agreeing with C4?

The part where he is equating a doctor's choice of patients with Jim Crow? The part about emergency room access which was mandated even before Obamacare? The part where doctors are not gods? The part where he advocates states yanking their licences for not treating those who the state says they must treat regardless of compensation? The part where doctors have "millions?". The part where he says overseas docs are just itching to work for medicare/medicaid wages?

So with what exactly are you agreeing? Because none of the above make very much sense on their own merits.

Scott Rothfus said...

Fifty percent below the median, to be truly pedantic

Gahrie said...

They start dumping all Medicare patients, states can pass laws to yank their license to practice.

From each according to their abilities...right?

Big Mike said...

If you don't want Obamacare to succeed, you can keep pounding the Democrats over the lies and broken promises ...

I think Democrats should be pounded endlessly over their lies and broken promises, and not merely on Obamacare. But what if there's a third alternative, Professor? What if back when the legislation was still being voted on some of us realized that it never would "succeed" except for some really strange definition of "success." So let me ask you, Professor, what is your definition of "success" for Obamacare? Would it be that fewer people go bankrupt due primarily to medical expenses after Obamacare than the "bad old days" of 2013? Would success be fewer people die of cancer? Before I know whether to root for Obamacare to succeed I'd like to know how much misery I'm rooting for.

Big Mike said...

So 46% of the mythical "likely US voters" believe the president is an out and out liar and 45% think he's a poor manager and technical bumbler. The other 10% aren't sure (yeah, adds up to more than 100%).

That's the problem with either-or polling questions; there are probably some folks in that 10% who think he's both.

Freeman Hunt said...

There needs to be a charity for this unfortunate 45%, these invisible sufferers. Unable to navigate the world, unable to provide for their own basic needs, naked and alone, these 45% suffer. They are the hidden ones, the unknowns, the lost. But luckily, due to ingenuity of dedicated pollsters, these forgotten people have been found. Let us turn now from this era of ignoring the utterly helpless 45%. Let us work toward a better future in which we shall feed, dress, and give dignity to this large and hapless segment of our citizenry.

cubanbob said...

If Cedaford and Inga are to be believed they would remake the USA into the USSA.

El Pollo Raylan said...

Original Mike said...You do know who you're agreeing with; right Inga?

Cedarford and Inga have more in common than you think, OM. Surprised you didn't notice earlier.

J said...

["promises" made to that small — what is it, 15 million? — set of persons who liked the — substandard! — health insurance they had.]

The ignorant Obama voter strikes again.

It's 15 million now and lots more coming. Once businesses start seeing the huge spikes, the numbers will jump. Lots of employees will get their healthcare coverage dropped completely and most others will see a large increase in the amount they pay.

The only way Obamacare 'works' is taking tons more money from productive people. That won't 'work'.

But I will say I'm in favor of taxing the idiots that voted for Obama at a higher rate. Make them pay.

Annie said...

Re: C4 and Inga - I thought slavery was abolished. Forcing doctors to work for nothing or lose their license? You sound just like the misandrist pumapac harpies who said the same of doctors who refused to perform abortions -- Christianists should not be allowed in the medical field so that women can abort up to the moment of birth.
I'll take a doctor who respects and errs on the side of life over a large, corrupt, bureacratic, rationing body of agenda driven assholes any day. Doctors and nurses who are foot soldiers for the state first, as you appear to be, Inga, is frightening.

And when you look at the health outcomes of those in this country suffering from all major illnesses, and compare it to outcomes in the UK and Canada, there is a huge difference in survivability ..ours being leaps and bounds better. But the foot soldiers insist on destroying that, like every other government program the government god has created to enslave the dupes.

We're 17 trillion in debt, mostly due to those programs and cedarford thinks it's all working great and we're in need of even more central planning.

Frank said...

We'll see how fast that 46% number climbs once the delay on the Employer Mandate expires and many many millions more have their insurance policies cancelled and are forced onto the so-called Exchanges. That's when the real expelled biomass will hit the fan. I expect the public reaction will make the storming of the Bastille seem like a Sunday picnic, that is if Americans still have their mojo.

Bruce Hayden said...

I don't disbelieve the stats, and indeed, have been saying for quite some time here that Obama seems more the front guy, and much of what is going on in his government flies right under his nose. Or never gets high enough in the White House for him to see it. You may be able to call it plausible deniability.

Remember, this is the guy who has never really worked in the private sector, going from affirmative action (likely officially foreign) student to community organizer to state legislator to Congress to the Presidency. The only thing of any size he had had any hand in, maybe, was his 2008 Presidential Campaign. Had he ever managed an IT program before that? Or had one under him? Maybe a dozen PCs in his Senate Office with a lot of help from Senate staff. Paraphrasing Rummy a bit, he didn't know what he didn't know. He didn't even have a clue.

And, I think that extends to what was in the bill, and then the regs. He is a high level guy, who has lower level people doing the detail work. Despite his Harvard JD, I seriously doubt that he would have understood much of it if he had tried. He didn't have the background, and probably not the brains, so why bother?

Of course, this means that the government is running itself to a great extent, and when it isn't, it is going along with the political zealots he appointed to high government positions.

ErnieG said...

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

-George Carlin

Rusty said...


================
Regrettably, Freedom!! sometimes has compromises. Like laws saying that you have to allow black people to use or patronize your business, even if you would like to bar them as bad for business. Or hospitals required by law to treat ER indigents or they lose accreditation.

Doctors are not Gods. They start dumping all Medicare patients, states can pass laws to yank their license to practice. And lose equity in joint proctice LLCs. Plus end their lucrative active management in medical services firms that "use" the license as part of the business (owners of testing labs requiring a MD to oversee, medical prothesis that need drugs prescribed, etc.)

If they say they will then just quit and take their millions and play golf, unless they have their way....We just hire in all the overseas docs happy to work and accept Medicare/Medicaid patients. Plus we gain skilled and educated immigrants and high IQ familys as opposed to the dregs of the rest of the world we typically take in.


I wish it were that simple.
Well. In reality I'm glad it isn't that simple.
Med school is hard for a reason.
The majority of foreign doctors aren't qualified to practice in the United States.
Thank god.


But continue with your fantasy.