May 3, 2013

"There are so many different things put under the heading homophobic."

"But I think the personal privacy question of whom one feels comfortable taking a shower with deserves distinct treatment. Maybe tough guys should be tough and not care who sees them naked, but the notion that you don't want anyone looking at your body who is sexually attracted to that kind of body isn't about hating others. It's about personal privacy. Maybe it's lame. I note that the French word for shower is douche."

I'm quoting myself, commenting in a Facebook discussion that began when Jaltcoh (my son) quoted something that I blogged yesterday. Sorry for the excess of me in all that, but I felt the urge to go big with my little French joke.

114 comments:

SJ said...

Is a woman who refuses to shower in mixed-sex company heterophobic?

Meade said...

Fear of Eyeing.

Mark said...

Do NBA and other top professional athletes have group showers like the YMCA in their often extremely plush lower rooms?

Seriously?

Diamondhead said...

In the future there will only be two types of straight men: those who are willing to play the curious neophyte in gay pornography and homophobes.

edutcher said...

Actually, homophobic, a phony word if ever one existed, ought to define the miltant homosexuals who hate the "breeders", or maybe the sexual dhimmis who kowtow to them.

Meade said...

Fear of Eyeing.

Lookism.

But, yes, very droll.

Pastafarian said...

Althouse: "...the notion that you don't want anyone looking at your body who is sexually attracted to that kind of body...Maybe it's lame."

See, that's exactly what I told the police as they dragged me from the YWCA showers. Heterophobe fascists.

Diamondhead said...

"Do NBA and other top professional athletes have group showers like the YMCA in their often extremely plush lower rooms?"

Yes.

Henry said...

Should a homosexual athlete only feel prudish if another teammate is also homosexual?

Patrick said...

I think part of the congratulations being offered this guy is based on the fact that if an athlete of some fame comes out, that will make it easier for others to do so. I'm not sure that one of the more marginal players in the league will make much difference, but what do I know?

Mitchell the Bat said...

We all took a wrong turn when we got to hydrophobic.

Anthony said...

"Is a woman who refuses to shower in mixed-sex company heterophobic?"

End of thread.

SteveR said...

Thankfully I never had to see Raquel Welch naked for her to satisfy my sexual desires.

Thorley Winston said...

Actually, homophobic, a phony word if ever one existed, ought to define the miltant homosexuals who hate the "breeders", or maybe the sexual dhimmis who kowtow to them.

Quite right, there’s no such thing as “homophobia.” It’s simply an Orwellian smear term much like calling anyone who doesn’t kowtow to the Obama’s whims a “racist.”

Chuck said...

The next logical place for the discussion of gays in American professional team sports is the fact that there is no doubt a miniscule percentage of gay men in team sports.

One reason that I'd like to have it clear that all gay athletes are out, is to make clear the curious fact that among women atletes in the LPGA, the tennis tours, and the WNBA, it could be half or more of the athletes who are lesbians.

Whereas in the NBA, the NFL, Major League Baseball, and NHL hockey, I doubt that anyone could find one gay athlete in 100, or perhaps 200. Maybe more.

I hope that all gay athletes come out, if for no other reason than that we could count them and consider what such a count means.

Pogo said...

'Privacy'?
'Personal'?

Be careful, Althouse, that's rank individualism.

Your own preferences and desires are acceptable only where they conform to the progressive agenda.

harrogate said...

"I think part of the congratulations being offered this guy is based on the fact that if an athlete of some fame comes out, that will make it easier for others to do so."

Yes, that's a big part of it, and is clearly revealed to be so by paying attention to the arguments being made by people congratulating him.

"I'm not sure that one of the more marginal players in the league will make much difference, but what do I know?"

Of course, had it been a "superstar" the impact would be bigger, but even a marginal NBA player is still someone who cannot but be recognized as a great athelete. And the rhetoric of encouragement that Collins is getting from iconic NBA players, such as Kobe Bryant, makes a positive difference as well.

When it is no longer a "big deal" for a gay professional male athlete to publicly declare his orientation, that in itself will be a big deal. Collins moved us closer to this ideal.

Mitchell the Bat said...

Years ago, I worked out at the 12th Street Gym in center city Philadelphia.

It was chock-full of homos but it had individual shower stalls.

Anyway, one afternoon I was in the weight room using the leg curl machine and this homo guy, who barely knew me, hopped on top and started dry-humping my ass.

I was not amused.

In his defense, however, I was, in fact, wearing a pair of those black spandex shorts that were popular at the time so who could blame him, really?

They were real . . . and they were spectacular.

Shouting Thomas said...

Fearing the sexual behavior of men that killed tens of thousands of gay men in SF and NYC, that spiraled a global epidemic that killed millions is damned sensible.

Althouse, why do you dream about men being gay? You've got your panties in an uproar over this shit.

I've met every kind of fag hag you can imagine. Usually, they corner themselves into this bullshit because they fantasize about double penetration or getting gangbanged and they think gay men might help them out. The fag hags are sorely mistaken.

What is called homophobia is actually two very sensible things... (1) the desire of parents to have grandchildren and (2) the historical social memory of the horrific public health consequences of unbridled male homosexuality.

Althouse, you've never once confronted the reality of the havoc gay men wrought on other people by causing the AIDS epidemic. I guess creaming your drawers over getting gangbanged takes precedence.

And before you get huffy, remember your recent post when you pulled out that fag hag classic... "If you don't worship gay men, you're a closeted fag!"

Dante said...

This is the only excuse I've heard that has validity in keeping gays out of the military. It is a rather odd situation.

You can have any number of heterosexuals of the same sex in a shower and not worry about sexual attraction.

You can have at most two homosexuals in a shower and not worry about sexual attraction.

One day it was my birthday, and my wife was making dinner for me, but needed some more time, so I went and had a drink. This guy followed me into the restroom, and started moving his dick in circles as he peed. As I walked out, I noticed there were no towels. The guy starts to walk out too, and notes there are no towels, and asks whether he can wipe his hands on my pants.

Somehow, that made me feel the same way as after I listen to a Bill Clinton speech. Like I have to take a shower to get the shit off of me.

I'm not saying the guy didn't have a right to ask if he could wipe his hands on my pants, though I kind of think it was rude.

Big Mike said...

... but I felt the urge to go big with my little French joke.

An urge you might have resisted, especially given the serious question you pose.

I showered in communal showers as a high school and college student taking P.E., and as an athlete, and again as a Vietnam-era soldier. If I thought about it, the probability is high that I shared a shower with someone who was surreptitiously checking me out somewhere along the line. But I didn't know it, so it didn't bother me. Would I be bothered if I knew for a fact that I was sharing a shower with a known homosexual who was openly ogling me? Probably yes.

I do know that heterosexual female soldiers I knew back then were very bothered by showering with more or less open lesbians who certainly were checking them out.

Scott M said...

It's not like gaggles of commenters hereabouts didn't bring up this very point in regards to the end of DADT in the military. The plain truth of the matter is that men and women are barracked separately for this very reason, not because the military thinks the men are going to blindly pounce on any perceived poontang they peep.

Apparently, the straights in the world are just going to have to get over it.

It occurs to me that it's actually worse. Take your average woman. She may not want a bunch of men showering naked with her, or being around when she's naked, but chances are she still enjoys what a dude can do to her in more intimate, consenting moments.

That doesn't apply to a straight showering with someone who's gay. The straight would not, in a more intimate, consenting moment, want to do or have done things that the gay would want to do.

This isn't homophobic, it's simply the fact of the differences.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

harrogate said...

When it is no longer a "big deal" for a gay professional male athlete to publicly declare his orientation, that in itself will be a big deal.

Most of us are already there, and have been for a very long time.

Renee said...

Despite policy disagreements, I think it is homophobic to assume gay men want to always hang out with either gay men or straight women. Men are men, and gay men should be treated as one of the guys.

While we can blame straight men for this, straight women are too.

Only from my younger reflection, gay people I knew when I was younger came from larger families. So you were always a part of the group, as siblings/cousins. They had straight friends of the same sex, it just happened to be family.

Individuals don't have that, they frame their groupings by interest/ lifestyle.

Colonel Angus said...

I don't care one way or the other who sees me naked in the locker room. It's only when there is unwanted physical contact that violence will ensue and that's about as likely as wanted physical contact from Scarlett Johansson.

Big Mike said...

Althouse, why do you dream about men being gay? You've got your panties in an uproar over this shit.

The Professor has an openly gay son.

Larry J said...

The idea of personal privacy is passe. Privacy, like choice, is only approved of in the context of abortion.

Marshal said...

Shouting Thomas said...
I guess creaming your drawers over getting gangbanged takes precedence.


Apparently we can rule out "He's away on a nice relaxing vacation".

Charles said...

Patrick said:

I think part of the congratulations being offered this guy is based on the fact that if an athlete of some fame comes out, that will make it easier for others to do so. I'm not sure that one of the more marginal players in the league will make much difference, but what do I know?

This guy had nothing to lose - he's a journeyman player who I'd never heard of (even though he recently played for my favorite team), and he's now on track for huge endorsement deals.

If anything, seeing how much coming out can help the earning power of a marginal player will encourage more, not fewer, players to come out.

Big Mike said...

Regarding my comment at 12:20, with my hair largely gone and a pot gut instead of broad shoulders and a narrow waist, I can't imagine anyone of either gender checking me out in a communal shower anymore. So there's that.

jimbino said...

Amerikans are so weirdly panicked by nudity. The Finns and Germans, men, women, heteros, homos and whole families regularly get naked and swim together.

Edutcher's "Actually, homophobic, a phony word if ever one existed, ought to define the miltant homosexuals who hate the "breeders"...," though mostly incoherent, typically ignores the fact that many homosexuals are also breeders.

Non-breeders are those, straight or otherwise, who do not pollute the planet and double their carbon footprint with every birth or feed at the gummint welfare trough of kiddie-care tax breaks and public mis-education.

Chuck said...

Do they have communal showers in the NBA anymore?

The overwhelming trend in the top NCAA basketball programs, and I presume in the NBA, are luxury locker rooms with iPad docking stations, reclining chairs, multiple flat-screen televisions... and individual, private showers.

The era of large barracks-style shower rooms that so many of us remember from our high school days are a long-ago memory in the modern NBA, right? A modern locker room for the Kentucky Wildcats, the Michigan Wolverines, the Detroit Pistons or the Orlando Magic is more akin to a Ritz Carlton than anything in the army. Right?

Leland said...

The big deal is the treatment of a conman as a hero for admitting the con.

Here's a question: He hid his true sexual orientation from his female fiance for 8 years; what makes anyone think he's not lying about being homosexual now? It's been less than a week, and we are supposed to assume this time he's telling us the truth?

I'm sure we will soon add skepticism under the heading of homophobic.

ricpic said...

Not only grown men, a little boy should not be uncomfortable when his homo scoutmaster eyes him in the shower and then gets into the shower with him and then sticks his dick up the little boy's ass. Anything less would be homophobia. Intolerable!

Colonel Angus said...

Yes, that's a big part of it, and is clearly revealed to be so by paying attention to the arguments being made by people congratulating him.

And the fact he was engaged and for eight years strung along a woman who obviously thought she had a future with this guy makes no never mind.

I guess she's just collateral damage in the war of homosexual acceptance.

Baron Zemo said...

Good point ricpic.

You are a homophobe for pointing that out though.

Renee said...

Jimbino,

Once upon a time, children were the future. Now they're the problem....

Martin Handford said...

I think it's fine and even natural to be uncomfortable showering with people who are attracted to you (or, to be more accurate, who are attracted to your sex).

But anytime you have a communal-shower setup, gays might be showering with you. Whether they're out or not. In the Army, for instance, the repeal of DADT didn't suddenly introduce gays into the military barracks showers where they weren't before. They were there before; I guess straight people just didn't have to think about it so much. Which I guess is unpleasant for many (the having to think about it).

What's the solution to the problem of people not wanting to shower in "mixed company" -- ban gays from the showers? Build a third and fourth locker room for the homosexual men and women? (I guess arguably you could just build a third locker room and put them in there together, since they aren't going to be interested in each other.)

Leland said...

Take your average woman. She may not want a bunch of men showering naked with her, or being around when she's naked, but chances are she still enjoys what a dude can do to her in more intimate, consenting moments.

Further to this, I'm a man who enjoys watching his wife shower. But often, I just like enjoying the shower. I don't want my wife there, not because of modesty, but for the privacy of enjoying some solitude. Which is why, as Chuck points out; newer locker rooms have private showers with iPod docks.

Pogo said...

Some reeducation for the folks desiring privacy is in order.

This Red Hook, NY middle school has already started the training.

"The workshop, given separately to boys and girls, was a school effort to educate kids about bullying to comply with DASA (The Dignity for All Students Act) legislation and also to raise awareness of LGBTQ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning/queer youth).

But on a Facebook forum after the April 11 class, irate parents said their children came home saying the boys were taught how to tell if girls were “sluts” and the girls were told to practice saying ‘no’ by asking each other on a date and kissing.

During the 2 hour meeting, Zahedi addressed numerous rumors that had been circulating about what had happened during the presentations, labeling as “patently false” the online claim that kids were told they could have sex no matter what parents or teacher said.
"

Colonel Angus said...

Don't kid yourself and don't think straight guys in communal showers aren't checking each other out to see who measures up. So to speak.

But that's a whole 'nother story.

Levi Starks said...

Excess me?
I just thought you were channeling Obama.

Pogo said...

"According to Todd Starnes at Fox News Radio, “The boys and girls were also given a sexual vocabulary primer – that included words like ‘pansexual’ and ‘genderqueer.’” The flyers included email addresses for the college-age instructors. When pressed on this detail, school staff admitted that this was probably not a good choice and that the “conversation” was not intended to be ongoing. "

But it's probably nothing.

Pogo said...

Using the Obama template:
"We will keep this promise: If you like your privacy, you will be able to keep your privacy. Period. If you you don't want anyone looking at your body who is sexually attracted to that kind of body, you won't have to. Period.

Jay said...

harrogate said...
When it is no longer a "big deal" for a gay professional male athlete to publicly declare his orientation, that in itself will be a big deal


It isn't a big deal.

You continuously shouting ITS A BIG DEAL doesn't make it a big deal.

Renee said...

Pogo,

They were not licensed as teachers social workers or health professionals, they had no business leading a seminar on 'bullying'.

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

Ann said: the notion that you don't want anyone looking at your body who is sexually attracted to that kind of body isn't about hating others. It's about personal privacy.

And this is exactly the notion behind the Peeping Tom laws, no?

I've always thought gays in military, gays in locker room, etc, could be successfully opposed based on that.

Apparently not.

Jay said...

But just as with all things the left touches, "homophobic" means nothing.

They think shouting it is indicative of something about the person they are shouting it to. In reality, they're shouting it because there is no intellectual basis for their beliefs.

Michael said...

Let me make a point that is neither homophobic nor racist: blacks do not like homosexuals. Broad statement but directionally correct. That said, there are lots of blacks who bat on both sides of the plate and it is quietly accepted but not touted. There are lots of blacks who are out as homosexuals and they are subject to considerable harassment and/or abuse in the black community. It should be noted that the majority of players in the NBA are African American. This dude's coming out has an element of courage that has not been noted in our wonderful pc and colorblind Althouse blog commentariat.

Meade said...

In the future, the truly rational, sophisticated, liberated, and enlightened person will be more like me –– biphobic -- both hetero AND homo.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Amerikans [sic] are so weirdly panicked by nudity. The Finns and Germans, men, women, heteros, homos and whole families regularly get naked and swim together.

I think you overgeneralize much.

I've shared several times that I was raised in a family of nudists. We routinely attended nudist camps/colonies, owned a cabin at one such resort. Swimming nude as well as sunbathing was a regular ho hum type of activity. Ho hum...everyone is nude. Big deal. In fact most people nude are really not all that attractive. [Swimming nude, btw, is a fabulous sensation. Everyone should try it once in their lifetime]

The idea that adults, along with their children, can participate in VOLUNTARY activities such as swimming in the nude is really not such a big deal. It is their choice to participate or not.

However, we are talking about NON-voluntary activities of showering with other men or other women in a locker room type of atmosphere.

Swimming and showering are also two separate types of activities. Showering, soaping up and bathing your body parts is a very intimate and private type of action that you usually don't share with someone else UNLESS there is a sexual component. Even in the nudist colonies, we did not shower together, except at the beaches to wash off sand. That really isn't showering in the sense of taking a bath. People also ate clothed in some way (for the most part) in the dining areas.

To be forced into what many people consider a personal and private activity with other people, homosexual or not, is an invasion of privacy. For those people who are uncomfortable with homosexuality and with the idea of group bathing it is an even worse invasion of privacy.

Pogo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chip Ahoy said...

Be sure not to ever use the word homosexual when referring to homosexuals because that is shibboleth for homophobia. Prefix homo pejorative. It's a made up word, a bag to toss things, like frankophobia, there is no such real thing. Compris? Oui l'homme.

EDH said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TMink said...

I think it is wise to put openly gay boys in tents with younger boys. Nothing could happen could it? And who thinks it is uncomfortable or wrong to be sexually objectified against your will?

Oh wait.

Scratch all that.

Trey

Pogo said...

"They were not licensed as teachers social workers or health professional..."

That wasn't the part of the story that concerned me, but rather what they taught.

New York-licensed teachers, social workers, and health professional would do exactly the same thing.

Remember, as MSNBC tells us:
"We have never invested as much in public education as we should have because we've always had kind of a private notion of children. Your kid is yours and totally your responsibility. We haven't had a very collective notion of these are our children.

So part of it is we have to break through our kind of private idea that kids belong to their parents, or kids belong to their families, and recognize that kids belong to whole communities.


(emphases mine)

Colonel Angus said...

It should be noted that the majority of players in the NBA are African American. This dude's coming out has an element of courage that has not been noted in our wonderful pc and colorblind Althouse blog commentariat.

Interesting point but when you consider Stanford grade and his gaggle of influential friends, my guess is Collins isn't rubbing elbows with the Snoop Dog contingent of the community.

Quite honestly, I'm amazed that anyone cares who comes out. There are so many high profile open homosexuals that I have to think all the brouha is manufactured in order to continue keeping gays as the last of the showcased oppressed.

Being ordinary doesn't get you anywhere.

EDH said...

Half a Person

Call me morbid, call me pale
I've spent six years on your trail
Six long years
On your trail

Call me morbid, call me pale
I've spent six years on your trail
Six full years of my life on your trail

And if you have five seconds to spare
Then I'll tell you the story of my life :
Sixteen, clumsy and shy
I went to London and I,
I booked myself in at the Y ... W.C.A.
I said : "I like it here - can I stay ?
I like it here - can I stay ?
Do you have a vacancy
For a Back-scrubber?"


She was left behind, and sour
And she wrote to me, equally dour
She said : "In the days when you were
Hopelessly poor
I just liked you more..."

And if you have five seconds to spare
Then I'll tell you the story of my life :
Sixteen, clumsy and shy
I went to London and I,
I booked myself in at the Y ... W.C.A.
I said : "I like it here - can I stay ?
I like it here - can I stay ?
And do you have a vacancy
For a Back-scrubber ?"

Call me morbid, call me pale
I've spent too long on your trail
Far too long
Chasing your tail
Oh ...

Jay said...

It should be noted that the majority of players in the NBA are African American. This dude's coming out has an element of courage that has not been noted in our wonderful pc and colorblind Althouse blog commentariat.

Considering he isn't on an active team, not really, no.

Matt said...

Dust Bunny Queen

Showering, soaping up and bathing your body parts is a very intimate and private type of action that you usually don't share with someone else UNLESS there is a sexual component.

You're kidding, right? You do know that all football, baseball, basketball, vollyball players in high school, college and pro teams shower together and have been for years. The sexual component is somewhere down around non-existent.

SMGalbraith said...

Mickey Kaus got into some trouble when "Brokeback Mountain" came out (ahem) by stating that he didn't want to see men kissing and making out in movies.

Yeah, I don't either. It's gross. So is watching two heterosexual fat people making out. Or unattractive people making out.

Skinny couples et cetera.

Hell, I don't want to see me making out.

jimbino said...

Dust Bunny Queen:

Here's how it works in that most machista country of Brazil:

http://www.popscreen.com/v/6fdnk/Colina-do-sol-2

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ Matt

You need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. Group showering whether in sports or military, while common, is not exactly a voluntary action. Sure....you could not be on the team and you can opt out of military service (unless we reinstitute the draft). So you can opt out of the group showers by just not participating.

Most people just go ahead and shower and ignore any sexual components and call it part of the sports experience. I participated in sports in school (swimming) and am quite familiar with the group shower experience. Actually, another ho hum activity, but.... It doesn't mean that some people may not be uncomfortable anyway.

Other than a sports or locker room setting, when do YOU do a group shower with other men? or women?

To try to make nude swimming and bathing together the same thing, as jimbimbo (or whatever his name is) did is to dismiss a very real concern on the part of some people.

DADvocate said...

I go to the YMCA, health club, etc just so I can take a shower and let gay guys see me and live in the agony of knowing they "can't touch that." I'm a teaser.

Shouting Thomas said...

Here's where those "unforeseen consequences" will blossom.

Collins should have married and produced grandchildren for his parents. He should have lived a life of hypocrisy and done his duty.

This glorification or gaydom breaks the bonds of reciprocal responsibity between parent and child, exalting the needs of the child over the parent. Unforeseen consequences, indeed.

Richard Dolan said...

"the personal privacy question of whom one feels comfortable taking a shower with deserves distinct treatment."

What's so special about a shower? If it's a personal privacy thing, the same issue is presented regardless of location or relative nakedness, and is captured by the idea (usually applied to men ogling women, but just as applicable more broadly) of 'undressing with the eyes.' I don't think a subject's 'feelings of comfort' in any situation can provide a workable standard for distinguishing between socially acceptable and outre attitudes.

Lucien said...

There is something to be said for bodily modesty as a virtue, but once one has entered a profession that entails communal showering (or perhaps once one has decided to put one's athletic prowess on display for the world to see)one has gone a long, and justifiable, way toward compromising that virtue. If one thereafter desires not to shower with heterosexuals of the opposite sex, or homosexuals of the same sex, there is nothing pathologically phobic about that, but it may be asking too much form the situation to expect the world to conform to that preference.

That use of "homophobia" is a widespread as it is represents a triumph for gays in the politics of language, even as it loses a lot of its punch and accuracy. The word "racism" has been similarly used to cover too much behavioral territory, as, in some circumstances, have the terms "rape" and
anti-semitism".

jimbino said...

Right Lucien,

And a woman in childbirth shows her wide-open private parts to docs, nurses, chaplains and others of all 4 sexes in the delivery room.

It's a necessary part of the culture.

Matt said...

Dust Bunny Queen

I get what you're saying. Nudist camp swimming is voluntary but showering together in the locker room is not voluntary. But I guess we'd have to take a poll of all those who grew up showering in locker rooms together. I am going to guess that, as you said about swimming or sunbathing together, it is "a regular ho hum type of activity" for most people.

I suppose some people are uncomfortable with it.
But I'd say those people are either prudish or bothered by sex or hate their own body. I say they should just not shower. No one makes an athlete shower. Military is different, yes. They are ordered to shower. "You vill showver or you vill be shot!"

Titus said...

Communal showers are a thing of the past-it shows your ages here.

Any "newish" gym-like in the last 15 years has individual showers.

NBA and College Locker Rooms are palaces and they don't all shower in a huge gang shower-which would be hot though.

No young guys shower at my gym ever. The old guys do and they aren't fags. They walk all over the locker room naked, shave naked, dry their hair naked, naked old wrinkly asses-it's disgusting.

A friend of mine said the old guys are more comfortable naked in locker rooms because they are used to it and grew up with it or were in the military.

I wish the young beefy 20 something guys walked around naked, but no such luck.

Leland said...

SMGalbraith,

No kidding. The comedic premise of "Hope Springs" is watching two elderly heterosexual white people attempt to get it on. It was the premise, but I found it as enjoyable as hoping to catch my father spring on my mom, which was an impulse I never had.

I found the movie as enjoyable as Althouse finds "The Office".

Leland said...

A friend of mine said the old guys are more comfortable naked in locker rooms because they are used to it and grew up with it or were in the military.

Yes, it used to be no big deal.

Apparently for some, it is now a big deal, although the only rational for it being a big deal seems to be because they say so. Or because they claim black people are especially homophobic, which seems a rather racist viewpoint and ignores obvious contradictions like Ru Paul.

CWJ said...

Chip Ahoy,

Frankophobia? Fear of the sausage?

Seeing Red said...

SF is pushing to be sensitive to those grade-school children who are confused, so they want a bill that says if you ID with the opposite sex, you can use that bathroom in school.

I remember Phyllis Schaffley (sp) saying once against the ERA that it would lead to unisex bathrooms.

It took awhile, just had to go round.

Patrick said...

If one thereafter desires not to shower with heterosexuals of the opposite sex, or homosexuals of the same sex, there is nothing pathologically phobic about that, but it may be asking too much form the situation to expect the world to conform to that preference.

Ultimately, it's just the question of which idiosyncrasy (for want of a better term) we honor. The small portion of people who are gay and want to shower in the locker room or the small portion of people who do not wish to shower with people who are attracted to their gender. Someone is going to be inconvenienced.

CWJ said...

Jimbino,

All four sexes? Only four? Surely you're not even trying. Let's see. XX, XY, AB, O, O+, O-, A+. Oh sorry, those were blood types. You're a joke!

gadfly said...

The premise in the Facebook discussion is that homophobia is wrong. Only Althouse could acknowledge the point about Tao Spikes' homophobia and arachnophobia. The other point that needs mentioning is the unnatural acts of the sexual relationship. If we suggest to liberals that they also freely interact with known individuals who do it with animals (which is just another sexual perversion), they would likely say "no way" or 'I don't know anyone who does that." Indeed , there is not a long line at the microphone admitting to zoophilia.

The existence of Jason Collins' "straight" twin brother and Jason's admission that he had an eight-year heterosexual relationship are all the argument that is needed to show that Jason made a lifestyle choice. It rightfully follows that no one should ever be criticized for disagreeing with the concept of homosexuality or bestiality. We rightfully live our lives discriminating every time we make a choice - and if we choose not to associate with queers - that too is copacetic.

Seeing Red said...

Moo-moo
I love you
I know you're a cow but anything 'll do
I said, Oooo whee
Can't you see?
I just wanna make looooove to you



Brandmeier at his best!

harrogate said...

Althouse got smoked in the facebook thread and so brought her case here, to a much friendlier audience. 'Look out world! I'm a gonna blog this!!!!'

Matt said...

gadfly

Who cares if he made a choice? I'm perhaps not being politically correct in this matter but who cares if someone is born homosexual or makes the choice to become homosexual?

That said, there are a good number of people out there who live in denial of their sexuality because it is very tough to come out - even these days. Others still try one way, try the other way and then come back. Big deal. It's their life. [And, no, I'm not talking the man on dog bait you've dangled].

Dante said...

"There are so many different things put under the heading homophobic."

It might be instructive to have a list of those things that people deem to be "Homophobic."

Fear of or contempt [?] for lesbians and gay men --Dictionary.com
Non-medical, non-scientific pejorative term used to demean and ridicule anyone who disagrees with or disapproves of aberrant, deviant, or unnatural pseudo sexual behavior, conduct or practices, i.e., aberrosexualism, bisexualism, homosexualism, lesbianism, sadomasochism, zoophilism, etc. -- Urban Dictionary

A belief that "Gay Marriage" does not make sense.

A belief that AIDs remains a predominately homosexual disease.

People who beat up gays.

People who say homosexuality is a sin.

People who do not think gays should be allowed to adopt children they did not bear/father.

Dianne Feinstein, who shut down the Gay Bathhouses in San Francisco when the AIDs epidemic was starting.

Fidel Castro, who quarantined HIV positive people in Cuba.

People who don't like the in your face gay agenda, and think people ought to be allowed to accept, or reject, gays as they deem fit.

I'm sure there are more.

Sofa King said...

The straight would not, in a more intimate, consenting moment, want to do or have done things that the gay would want to do.

This isn't homophobic


If it isn't now, it will be soon.

Leland said...

Althouse got smoked in the facebook thread and so brought her case here, to a much friendlier audience. 'Look out world! I'm a gonna blog this!!!!'

Looks more like she wanted more than one opinion. Again, that you assert something to be true doesn't make it true. This isn't a big deal. That one person, David Saltzman, disagreed with her on facebook does not mean that either side one the debate. Particularly considering Saltzman's arguments are premised that the NBA players are for some reason intolerant of gays, and thus Collins is courageous.

Here's the thing, if Collins doesn't play next season, because he's past his prime, cost too much, and isn't needed by any team. Will he even have to face his intolerant colleagues in a locker room? Will teams get the benefit of doubt when declining to pick up and pay for Collins based on the rules of the game on the court? Or will Collins be able to claim discrimination based on sexual preference?

Let's consider context, Collins came out just as HR 1755 was being considered in the House. Perhaps he thought passage would protect his job by providing a suggestion that his career ended because of discrimination and not because he was no longer needed.

The season is over, and he's away from the court and locker room. All the suggested heroism is based on the assumption he plays next year and that his teammates are intolerant, or that he loses it all because of his choice to come out.

Crunchy Frog said...

SF is pushing to be sensitive to those grade-school children who are confused, so they want a bill that says if you ID with the opposite sex, you can use that bathroom in school.

Here's a big fucking clue to all those who are confused: If you have a dick, you're a dude. Use the facilities for dudes. Otherwise, you're a chick, and you use the ones for them.

If you're a dude who thinks he's a chick, or vice versa, then you have a mental illness and you need psychiatric help. What you do NOT need is to have your parts lopped off, or for the rest of society to have to comport itself to your twisted body image.

Seriously, it's not that complicated.

Marshal said...

Crunchy Frog said...
If you have a dick, you're a dude. Use the facilities for dudes. Otherwise, you're a chick, and you use the ones for them.

Seriously, it's not that complicated.


I can't wait for AT&T commercial with stoneface saying this to five year-olds.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3R-rtWPyJY

Leland said...

If you have a dick, you're a dude. Use the facilities for dudes.

Good advice, particularly since those who design such facilities do so based on the physical anatomy. If you are a confused chick, access to the boys room may allow you to join the smoking, but it won't help you in using the urinal.

El Pollo Real said...

I'm sure there are more.

How about being George Bush or Sarah Palin, or Mitt Romney or any other Republican who is neutral rather than actively pro-SSM?

When push comes to shove, their people's doorknobs get licked too.

Rocketeer said...

I'm prefectly willing to accept that gay men, and gay women, are hard-wired to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex.

Why, therefore, and I mean WHY??, is it so hard for many of them, and all of their political supporters, to accept that perhaps - just perhaps! - straight men and women are hard-wired to find that weird, and to be slightly uncomfortable with it?

Worse still, we're expected to be able to suppress and overcome those feelings. Perhaps we're just supposed to "pray away the 'I can't help but find it's kind of weird you're gay, NTTAWWT'"?

Meade said...

Titus said...
No young guys shower at my gym ever. The old guys do and they aren't fags. They walk all over the locker room naked, shave naked, dry their hair naked, naked old wrinkly asses-it's disgusting.

A friend of mine said the old guys are more comfortable naked in locker rooms because they are used to it and grew up with it or were in the military.

I wish the young beefy 20 something guys walked around naked, but no such luck.


Gerontophobic bastard.

Meade said...

Also - rhytiphobe.

Lipperman said...

Unless Collins is saving himself for marriage, I mean SSM, he was banging his fiancee for the better part of 8 years and probably enjoying it.
So he is bisexual, not gay as in limited to men.
Did he leave anything out?

El Pollo Real said...

Meade, I think Titus was channeling Samantha Jones in this scene from SATC: link

SeanF said...

Seeing Red referred to San Francisco, but it's not the city - it's the State of California, and there's already a bill that's been through committee. Look up AB-1266.

"A pupil shall be permitted to ... use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records."

Icepick said...

Thankfully I never had to see Raquel Welch naked for her to satisfy my sexual desires.

Okay, NOW I feel mentally violated.

SaintCroix said...

I can never get the hot lesbians to shower with me.

SaintCroix said...
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SaintCroix said...
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SaintCroix said...

Once you abandon a heterocentric vision of the universe, there really is a public shower math problem.

Straight naked men.
Gay naked men.
Straight naked women.
Gay naked women.

You figure it out! It hurts my brain.

harrogate said...

"How about being George Bush or Sarah Palin, or Mitt Romney or any other Republican who is neutral rather than actively pro-SSM?"

Neutral? I am not sure about Palin and Romney, so though I suspect this is a bullshit claim, I'll cede the point on grounds of who-gives-a-shit.

But I do, however, distinctly remember Bush spending time caterwauling for a "Constitutional Amendment" to "protect marriage," during the runup to the 2004 elections. Once in the White House Rose Garden presser.

Has he changed his mind since, and become "neutral"?

Colonel Angus said...

Has he changed his mind since, and become "neutral"?

Perhaps. Maybe his opinion is evolving.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"A pupil shall be permitted to ... use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records."

So...if pupils begin to identify with dogs, can they shit in the field and piss on the trees? I guess if they identify with a Rhesus Monkey they are allowed to fling poo everywhere.

Hmmm?

mariner said...

There are really only two things that are homophobic:

1. Anything less than complete approval of open homosexuality.

2. Anything less than complete approval of any opinion held by an open homosexual.

Icepick said...

I guess if they identify with a Rhesus Monkey they are allowed to fling poo everywhere.

Or perhaps if they're sexually attracted to G.G. Allin, or rather his corpse.

Dante said...

titus:

I wish the young beefy 20 something guys walked around naked, but no such luck.

Is that all you wish for?

I suspect beautiful young women wouldn't like it if I were to see them naked. In fact, I would bet there are laws on the book that can prosecute this.

Do you think they are wrong?

harrogate said...

Ahh, never mind. Just saw a You Tube clip of Romney in 2008, arguing on behalf of the same Constitutional Amendment.

But hey, you never know. Maybe Palin's "neutral" on the issue. (Maybe she's even Cruelly Neutral!!!!)

Seeing Red said...

So, can anyone tell me what "heterosexual privilege" is?

harrogate said...

"Looks more like she wanted more than one opinion."

In that case she was in luck on Facebook, because she was presented with numerous citations from peer-reviewed publications on the topic in question.

"Again, that you assert something to be true doesn't make it true."

Even when swinging at a Straw Man you miss by a country mile.

"This isn't a big deal. That one person, David Saltzman, disagreed with her on facebook does not mean that either side one [sic] the debate."

Not really a matter of "opinion," as both common sense and peer reviewed research converge to show that what Saltzman, and others with common sense on this issue, have been saying about before Collins came out, and continue to say about it now that he has come out.

"Particularly considering Saltzman's arguments are premised that the NBA players are for some reason intolerant of gays, and thus Collins is courageous."

I like your "for some reason" phrasing. If you're not allergic to actual scholarship, read up on the subject. Also you could try just opening your eyes and using some common sense. OR all the above.

Sorry for Partying.

Jane said...

By the way, could someone please tell me when "homosexual" became pejorative? Does that mean that, if speaking of same-sex attacted people in general, we have to say "gays and lesbians" instead of one general term for both? Is heterosexual pejorative, too?

Oh, and I had thought the "Q" in LGBTQ was "questioning" and meant in the context of confused teenagers. When did it become "queer," and what's the difference between queers and gays/lesbians? Are queers the really flaming ones, and the G & L refer to the "we're just like you" types? Just asking.

Gahrie said...

"A pupil shall be permitted to ... use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records."

You can bet your sweet ass that if this had been the law when I was in high school, I would have demanded to shower and use the bathroom with the girls. Hell, since if I was the class clown I would even have dressed in a skirt if they had demanded it.

kentuckyliz said...

So, het men hate an unsolicited and unwelcome sexual gaze being thrust upon them?

Boo fucking hoo.

n.n said...
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n.n said...

Another day, another dysfunctional behavior normalized by the Left, and others, who find the principles of evolution to be an inconvenient encumbrance of their lifestyles.

After their unprecedented genocidal activities inside and outside the womb throughout the 20th century, their penchant for committing involuntary exploitation, etc., I am surprised that they retain any credibility at all. I never thought they would progress to a direct assault against the terms and circumstances of reality, but they have.

I suppose nothing is outside the realm of possibility when promises of material, physical, and ego instant gratification are offered.

Harold said...

I have already told my 14 year old boy that if they try the Red Hook exercise in any of his classes, he is to immediately pull out his cellphone, dial "911" and report child sexual abuse is happening, and give the classroom number and teacher's name. His friends who have visited have received the same advice, and have told their parents, who have agreed that's the proper action to take.

William said...

I wasn't bothered that much by the communal showers during my military service. What was invasive and degrading were the open toilets. I think every human being wants and deserves privacy for such contemplative moments, but they were not on offer during basic . I'm sure communal crapping does not help unit cohesion or make more disciplined airmen, but that's the way the world was.....I'm a member of a gymn in NYC so it's a safe bet that I have showered with gay men. I've never been hit on, but that's probably more a testament to my age than to the restraint of gay men. Still I would think that in hetero environments gays play it cool. There are probably gymns in NY that have mostly gay clientele and I would be loath to shower or change clothes in such an environment.

MayBee said...

"Amerikans are so weirdly panicked by nudity. The Finns and Germans, men, women, heteros, homos and whole families regularly get naked and swim together."

How does that make Americans weird?