January 21, 2013

When golfers go Depardieu.

Actor Gerard Depardieu has been putting on a big show of running from France to escape high taxation.

Now, here in America, "Golfer Phil Mickelson May Call It Quits Due To Climbing Tax Rates."
If you think perhaps Mickelson is being a bit of a baby for threating [sic] to end a career that’s earned him a spot on this list of 10 wealthiest athletes on the planet because of some tax increases, understand that he’s getting hit on the state level, too. In November, California passed Proposition 30, which increases the top income tax rate on resident millionaires to 13.3%, a drain on Mickelson’s take-home pay that may force him to sell his 9,500 square foot mansion and flee his home state in search of more friendly pastures.
Do Americans care whether Phil Mickelson lives in the United States or not? It's hardly the equivalent of Gerard Depardieu and France. Or is it? Maybe I'm not getting America's attachment to its athletes.

Which, if any, Americans are in a position to protest — effectively protest — taxes by threatening to leave the country? Threatening to leave a state seems more plausible. I would think there are a lot of athletes in team sports who could let it be known they are taking taxes into account, but presumably that's all haggled over in private negotiations. A team in a high-tax state is going to have to put up more money than a team in a low-tax state. It really is the golfer — the athlete in business for himself — who has some choices about where to live. But other than the one-off character Tiger Woods, America doesn't care about golfers.

181 comments:

Seeing Red said...

The real question is who did he vote for?

Marshal said...

Do Americans care whether Phil Mickelson lives in the United States or not?

Yes. He's the best liked player on our Ryder Cup teams. He's more likely to move to Texas than out of the US. He's lose too much of his goodwill (i.e., sponsorships) renouncing citizenship.

Michael K said...

Why do you think so many pro golfers live in Florida, including native Californians. The alligators ?

rhhardin said...

The pernicious effect of high tax rates is reducing investment, just from moving money that would have been invested to money that supports the current consumption of public employees.

Investment money is seed corn. Current consumption money is eating corn.

Beta Rube said...

Obama and his lovers in the media just spent a year, and a billion bucks, telling is the rich don't pay "their fair share".

Mickelson probably pays somewhere in the 60% range with state taxes, sales tax, property tax, etc. This while half of Americans pay no income tax.

Objecting to any of this designates one as greedy, a hater of children, education, old people, and the sick.

And oh yeah, racist too. The sane folks have lost the war. There will be consequences.

cubanbob said...

Since athletes get taxed in every jurisdiction they play in it might be more effective if the players force the issue by playing in locations that aren't subject to state and local income taxes.

Seeing Red said...

WP says more taxes coming.

dbp said...

13% doesn't seem like that much until you realize that his state tax bill in CA is north of 6 million/year.

Hell, buy a 2 million dollar condo in Miami and he is 4 million in the black in year one.

garage mahal said...

it stops making economic sense for Mickelson to continue to swing a metal stick up to 70 times a day in exchange for the $48 million he earns on an annual basis.


Awwwwww! Not bad for a perennial choker.

Jay said...

36 Obama aides owe $833,000 in back taxes.

I'll talk about paying my "fair share" when they are no longer delinquent.

Jay said...

Why doesn't he move to Texas or Florida?

Nonapod said...

There are still a few states with no individual income tax. Moving to one of them would save him millions.

ricpic said...

The bigger issue is that taxing the highest earners in any field at confiscatory rates is going to reduce economic expansion which is going to immiserate millions which THE LEFT WANTS. The name of the game is dependency. Obama is peachy keen with a permanently taxed to its knees private sector and a gangbusters public sector.

MadisonMan said...

Since athletes get taxed in every jurisdiction they play in it might be more effective if the players force the issue by playing in locations that aren't subject to state and local income taxes.

Exactly. Why should GB Packers lose money to the taxman of CA when they play in California?

I've yet to hear a Golfer say they'll not play in Pebble Beach, however, so as to avoid CA taxes, but I agree that it's high time they did.

edutcher said...

It would have been a bigger deal 50 years ago in the days of Arnie's Army and the Golden Bear, but the people who count are paying attention.

Golf is a game for the affluent and the people who would be tempted to take the money and run are the ones the Demos need to fund their campaigns.

Ann Althouse said...

America doesn't care about golfers.

Let us hope that applies to one in particular.

garage mahal said...

Go GALT, Job Creator® !

Freder Frederson said...

You really don't know much about tax law, do you? Unless Phil Michelson renounces his U.S. citizenship, he has to pay U.S. taxes on his foreign earned income (the first 80 or 90 K is exempt from taxes, but that doesn't take Mickelson long to earn). Also, since he plays mostly in the U.S., the IRS doesn't care where he lives, they just care where the money is earned.

Mickelson probably pays somewhere in the 60% range with state taxes, sales tax, property tax, etc. This while half of Americans pay no income tax.

Not only is this probably not true but it is dishonest. You lump all of Mikelson's taxes together and then compare it to only income taxes of Americans making $50,000 or less. Of course those Americans also pay state income taxes, sales tax, gas taxes and often property taxes (if not directly, then indirectly). And of course the biggest single tax on less well off Americans is FICA, which at Mickelson's salary is insignificant.

EDH said...

To compensate, will tournaments in the highest tax states have to offer even bigger purses to the winners, typically those with the largest incomes, probably at the expense of the struggling pro golfers who barely make the cut?

You know, becoming more like university faculties.

Ann Althouse said...

"You really don't know much about tax law, do you? Unless Phil Michelson renounces his U.S. citizenship, he has to pay U.S. taxes on his foreign earned income..."

Why are you being such an asshole? Read the article asshole. He's talking about retiring.

TosaGuy said...

The left's focus on income tax rates when they whip up class warfare resentment against "the rich" really only impacts folk like athletes and entertainers....people who make a very high salary subject to income tax.

Meanwhile, the truly rich like Warren Buffett have very little income to tax. They have assets, and assets are not taxed via the income tax.

Of course Buffett will shill for higher income taxes on folks like Mickelson. Warren won't be paying it.

Seeing Red said...

So what if FICA is insignificant to him, doesn't he pay both sides?

15%.

Seeing Red said...

Is he a corporation? Or is he a John Edwards?

virgil xenophon said...

Nonapod@9:28/

Hard to believe, but in days of yore before Illinois turned more or less permanently "Blue" it also had no state income-tax....sigh..

garage mahal said...

Q. How do you balance that against the TOUR's retirement plan which by all standards is the best retirement plan in sports?

PHIL MICKELSON: I don't understand. What do you mean?

Q. Well, I mean I understand the 60 percent part of the equation, but in the TOUR's plan, you guys put about as much money aside as you want. It's treated differently under tax laws than most anybody else's tax plans. Where most people can only put away $45,000 or $50,000, you guys can put as much away as you want. And so at the end you guys end up with a much larger pot of gold than most people can.

PHIL MICKELSON: But when it comes out, it's still taxed at the same 62 percent rate.

Q. Well, you're still making that kind of money. That's if you're still in that bracket.

PHIL MICKELSON: (No response.)

Link.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...

Q. How do you balance that against the TOUR's retirement plan which by all standards is the best retirement plan in sports?


I love this.

He's taxed at an obscene rate and your response is look, squirrel!

Idiot.

I Callahan said...

Why are you being such an asshole?

Asshole is as asshole does, Ma'am.

Seeing Red said...

Yeah, and the real insult is when it comes out, it'll be taxed at 62% but will be worth less with all the monetization going on.

TosaGuy said...

I would suggest to Garage that the TOUR wouldn't come up with such a plan if the income tax system didn't encourage players to shelter so much of their tour winnings.

Seeing Red said...

So it's the sport of golf's fault the other pro sports unions didn't negotiate better deals?

I find that amusing.

bagoh20 said...

This stuff is the warming water on the frog. Leftists think that, sure a few crazy people will "go Gault" and stop producing jobs and revenue, but over all most will continue on and we will be fine.

What is, has, and will continue to happen is exactly what you see today. An economic down turn that just won't turn around with any vigor. This recession should have been history two years ago, and not just in some highly refined statistic, but to everyone in an obvious way. That's how they used to turn around, hard, fast and strong in under 2 years. Our current condition is pretty much as good as it gets now. The bar has been lowered, the water is nice and warm.

Many states are doing exceptionally well, mostly those not run by leftists for decades. The rest are floundering, and stale. Many people in the stale places think everything is fine.

Seeing Red said...

More taxes on the wealthy, oil & gas coming.

And DC parties on on what's left.

rhhardin said...

Meanwhile, the truly rich like Warren Buffett have very little income to tax. They have assets, and assets are not taxed via the income tax.

Limbaugh keeps saying that but he's wrong.

The income of assets is taxed at income tax rates when the asset earns it.

It's not taxed again when the asset pays it out to Buffet at ordinary rates, but it's already been taxed at ordinary rates. It shouldn't be taxed again at any rate. The 15% cap gain or dividend rate was a political compromise for the correct zero rate.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...

You really don't know much about tax law, do you? Unless Phil Michelson renounces his U.S. citizenship, he has to pay U.S. taxes on his foreign earned income


Thank you dummy for addressing a point nobody was arguing.

rhhardin said...

Penn Jillette says he ran the warm frog experiment and the frog jumps out.

jr565 said...

If you drive rich people out because you decide to sock it to them it's not as if they can't go elsewhere.
Thus, not only do you not get the extra taxes you don't get the current taxes either (talking about state at this point). And if he decides to stop competing then we're talkiing income and you won't get his income taxes either since he wont have one.
Way to go.

Cinderellastory said...

I wonder if native Wisconsin pro golfer Steve Sricker's decision to cut back on tour events is related to Mickelson's decision?

bagoh20 said...

A lot of the public have gotten comfortable with slow growth and malaise, as a psychological trade off for avoiding disaster. This is an old and well worn route to disaster, but old enough for a lot of people to not see it for what it is.

jr565 said...

Seeing Red wrote:
It's not taxed again when the asset pays it out to Buffet at ordinary rates, but it's already been taxed at ordinary rates. It shouldn't be taxed again at any rate. The 15% cap gain or dividend rate was a political compromise for the correct zero rate.

How about someone like Steve Jobs who earned a single dollar in salary but got all of his salary through tax options

Freder Frederson said...

Why are you being such an asshole? Read the article asshole. He's talking about retiring.

Because you continually ponder things that display your ignorance that if you did the least bit of research or possessed general knowledge (in this case of tax law) you would know are silly.

You posited: Which, if any, Americans are in a position to protest — effectively protest — taxes by threatening to leave the country? Threatening to leave a state seems more plausible.

The answer is very few unless you are willing to renounce your U.S. citizenship. Most reasonably intelligent people know that. This is especially true of professional athletes who compete mostly in the U.S.

Why are you being such a jerk when I point out that you do not know what you are talking about?

jr565 said...

bagoh20 wrote:
That's how they used to turn around, hard, fast and strong in under 2 years. Our current condition is pretty much as good as it gets now. The bar has been lowered, the water is nice and warm.

THey usually turn around in two years because presidents decide to push pro growth policies, not pro govt growth policies. Obama never even really attempted to push recovery.
He just changed the name of govt spending on liberal interest groups and ideas to "recovery plan".
When there were no green jobs, no shovel ready jobs and very little jobs of any kind (other than govt union jobs).

Freder Frederson said...

It's not taxed again when the asset pays it out to Buffet at ordinary rates, but it's already been taxed at ordinary rates.

That may be true of dividends (which at least theoretically are a distribution of profits to shareholders) but it is not true in the gain earned from selling stocks or property. That is money that has not been taxed.

Freder Frederson said...

Thank you dummy for addressing a point nobody was arguing.

Actually, that is exactly what Althouse was positing.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...
Why are you being such a jerk when I point out that you do not know what you are talking about?


Except nowhere, not anywhere at all, did you demonstrate Ann "didn't know what she was talking about"

Of course in your silliness you think you did.

But pretending is what ignorant people like you do

bagoh20 said...

"Penn Jillette says he ran the warm frog experiment and the frog jumps out."

They don't have our defect of a primitive reptilian mind - they're amphibians.

jr565 said...

Even the Beatles recognized the Taxman was evil (he's going to tax the pennies on your eye when you die, and tax the streets when you walk on them for gods sakes) and they were all lefty peace and love. Though, it was George Harrison and he was the weird one.

And this was back in the 60's. Libs keep talking about how progressive they are, but if we are talking about lessons not learned in the 60's, how progressive are the ideas really?

Colonel Angus said...

Why are you being such a jerk when I point out that you do not know what you are talking about?

Because she clearly stated leaving the state, rather than the country, is the more plausible course.


madAsHell said...

Exile on Main Street.

Nonapod said...

Clearly the government will do more good with that 62% of Mickelson's income than he would have. He'd only invest and buy stuff and employ people with it. But California needs that money for state pensions and to put towards that $55 billion dollar bullet train that nobody will use.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...

Actually, that is exactly what Althouse was positing.


Oh really?

Please then stupid shit point out where Ann said anyone, especially Phil Michelson, is leaving the country without renouncing their citizenship.

Please. I can't wait to read all about it.

Freder Frederson said...

Even the Beatles recognized the Taxman was evil (he's going to tax the pennies on your eye when you die, and tax the streets when you walk on them for gods sakes) and they were all lefty peace and love. Though, it was George Harrison and he was the weird one.

Sheesh, that was when the income tax rate in the U.K. was well over 90% (and the top U.S. rate at the time was 70%). Top marginal rates in this country, even at 39%, are historically low.

Levi Starks said...

Hmm... Don't forget to add a nearly 10% sales tax, and who knows what kind of special taxes he pays when he's at "tourist location hotels" And I'm sure he tips 20% when he eats at nice restaurants, which I'm sure he always does. I wouldn't know about any religious affiliation, so I cant guess if he tithes, or pledges money to charities, But I'm betting that from his perspective he takes home about 10% of his actual earnings.
Now lets compare him to a public servant like VP Biden.. Makes far less in income, but in actuality pays for virtually nothing, lives like a king, and gives less than 1% to charity.

garage mahal said...

He's taxed at an obscene rate

He's the 2nd highest paid athlete in the U.S.

Shut your fucking piehole and be grateful that pro golf made you fabulously wealthy. Fabulously wealthy enough to consider buying a MLB team.

jr565 said...

Freder income tax taxes income.
If you have no income because you are retired you wont get taxed on it.
I'm not sure if leaving the country would even be required since he's not actually earning anything. But raising the state taxes like California just did, requiring him to potentially sell his house, I can assure you that he would have a better life in a state that isn't so blue. As such, why wouldn't he and countless others facing the same problem not uproot and go there?

Also, if he is retired and lives in a foreign country what INCOME would the US take from him in taxes?

Freder Frederson said...

Please then stupid shit point out where Ann said anyone, especially Phil Michelson, is leaving the country without renouncing their citizenship.

I already did. But since you are particularly dense and need to read things several times before it sinks in, I will do it again, just for you.

Do Americans care whether Phil Mickelson lives in the United States or not? It's hardly the equivalent of Gerard Depardieu and France. Or is it? Maybe I'm not getting America's attachment to its athletes.

Which, if any, Americans are in a position to protest — effectively protest — taxes by threatening to leave the country?

jr565 said...

Garage Mahal wrote:
He's the 2nd highest paid athlete in the U.S.

Shut your fucking piehole and be grateful that pro golf made you fabulously wealthy. Fabulously wealthy enough to consider buying a MLB team.

So at what tax rate would you cede the point and say "yeah, that's probably too high"? 99%, 98%, 97%....?

When Will Smith was told about France's 75% tax rate he said "God Bless America" and he was one of the Hollywood elites pushing for higher taxes on the rich.
So 75%, 74%, 73%?


Joaquin said...

It is pure stupidity for an American athlete to not live in either Florida or Texas, and be incorporated in the Caymans.

Freder Frederson said...

And I'm sure he tips 20% when he eats at nice restaurants, which I'm sure he always does.

Yeah, tips at restaurants (since they are all owned by the government) are taxes.

Colonel Angus said...

Top marginal rates in this country, even at 39%, are historically low.

Obviously not low enough for Democrats who still are salivating at the idea of generating more revenue.

I would have less of an issue being subjected to those historically low tax rates if almost have the wage earners were kicking in their so called fair share as opposed to the zip they pay now.

Seeing Red said...

They don't need to threaten to leave a state, they just do.

I've been working on hubby.

Pro golf "made" him fabulously wealthy?

How did pro golf "make" him wealthy?

Did it pick him out of a crowd and POOF, he was wealthy?

You, yourself, told me you just go make more money.

Are you envious pro golf didn't "poof" you and make you fabulously wealthy?

Levi Starks said...

And I'm really sick and tired of the "top marginal rate used to be this or that argument" Because when it was that high, no one ever paid it. Standing beside that "top rate of 90%" were a dual set of tax laws that made it possible to avoid paying it. The only way anyone ever paid 90% was if a million dollars fell out of the sky and landed in their lap, and they didn't have sense enough to hire a tax lawyer to shelter it...

rehajm said...

It is indeed difficult for Americans to pull a Depardieu when it comes to federal taxes. What surprises me is how may Mickelson's there are that maintain their primary residence in high tax states. Avoiding state tax by Depardieuing to Florida is a no brainer.

And while he won't garner much sympathy from anyone, Mickelson's plight is the same as anyone facing higher marginal rates. His incentive to go out and work- to be productive, is reduced by a higher marginal rate. Everyone, whether they know it or not, deals with Mickelson's dilemma on some level. Two income households with small children in daycare are highly sensitive to chages in marginal rates like this...

jr565 said...

Freder wrote:
Which, if any, Americans are in a position to protest — effectively protest — taxes by threatening to leave the country?

Rich ones you moron! The very people that the left say arent' paying their fair share who are in the position to live exhorbitantly on what they've already earned without having to work any further.

Freder Frederson said...

It is pure stupidity for an American athlete to not live in either Florida or Texas

Maybe he doesn't like Florida or Texas. And being incorporated in the Caymans doesn't do you a whole hell of a lot of good if the IRS considers compensation for sporting events earned income.

Seeing Red said...

Top marginal rates also had bigger loopholes, so while 39% might seem low, there are less loopholes. I remember when sales taxes & automotive loan interest were deductible.

rehajm said...

And I'm really sick and tired of the "top marginal rate used to be this or that argument"

Amen to this. If you want to compare taxes over eras, the more accurate way is to compare effective tax rates. Total tax burden matters, too. Not just federal taxes or state taxes looked at in isolation.

Freder Frederson said...

Rich ones you moron! The very people that the left say arent' paying their fair share who are in the position to live exhorbitantly on what they've already earned without having to work any further.

Well if you are going to retire and your income drops to zero (you cash in all your savings and put it in your mattress), you won't owe any income taxes anyway.

Seeing Red said...

Michael Douglas & CZJ were spending most of their time in I think it was Bermuda, raising their kids there.

Bermuda is very tax-friendly.

So did they pay US taxes or were they citizens of Bermuda and didn't pay their fair share?

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...


I already did. But since you are particularly dense and need to read things several times before it sinks in, I will do it again, just for you.


Um, so where is the part that says they are leaving an not renouncing their citizenship again?

jr565 said...

Colonel wrote:
I would have less of an issue being subjected to those historically low tax rates if almost have the wage earners were kicking in their so called fair share as opposed to the zip they pay now.

Exactly. EVERYONE has to pay their fair share. Isn't that what Obama has been arguing since day one? So why does a huge percentage of the population not have skin in the game? Especially since they are the ones that the programs we have to pay extra in taxes to fund are for.

Clearly the issue is govt spending too much and taking in too little. But if the issue REALLY were revenue Obama could get alot more money if he raised taxes on the top 50% instead of the top 2%. The only problem with that is the top 50% would all become tea partiers asking why their taxes were so high. So Obama and the dems have to resort to demagoguery and pretend that their solution will actually solve problems while kicking the real problem down the road for the next president to deal with.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...


I already did. But since you are particularly dense and need to read things several times before it sinks in, I will do it again, just for you.


Oh, I see, in your quick desire to show us how "smart" you are - after all, you regular post easily debunked lies here and link to things that do not say what you claim they did - you made an inference based on what Ann wrote.

I'm shocked by this development.

Really, I am.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...

Shut your fucking piehole and be grateful that pro golf made you fabulously wealthy. Fabulously wealthy enough to consider buying a MLB team.


Hilarious.

Coming from the fat idiot (sucking at the government trough) who takes to the Internet to brag about his W2.

You really, really can not make this level of stupid up, folks.

rhhardin said...

That may be true of dividends (which at least theoretically are a distribution of profits to shareholders) but it is not true in the gain earned from selling stocks or property. That is money that has not been taxed.

Ah but the company has a choice whether to distribute profits or retain them as investment in the company. Those that are retained show up as capital gains when the stock is sold; those that are paid out show up as dividend income.

The dividend and cap gain rates were made the same for exactly the reason that you don't want tax law to favor one business practice over the other, in a surprising move making economic sense.

Of course in a sane world both would be zero.

Selling property usually has a gain that is purely inflation, so really ought not to be taxed at all either. It's not reinvestment gain butm government irresponsibility gain.

Freder Frederson said...

If you want to compare taxes over eras, the more accurate way is to compare effective tax rates. Total tax burden matters, too. Not just federal taxes or state taxes looked at in isolation.

Well then, provide evidence that the total tax burden is historically high.

Seeing Red said...

Didn't Johnny Depp move to Tennessee when he came back to the US?

Two states have a limited income tax on individuals. These states tax only dividend and interest income:

•Tennessee
•New Hampshire



Why didn't he move to Cali?

Nonapod said...

Well if you are going to retire and your income drops to zero (you cash in all your savings and put it in your mattress), you won't owe any income taxes anyway.

Still got property taxes and sales taxes. Better to leave the state.

Colonel Angus said...

EVERYONE has to pay their fair share. Isn't that what Obama has been arguing since day one?

No, just us millionaires and billionaires making $250k or more a year need to pay our fair share which I guess means 75% of the total Federal income tax.

Freder Frederson said...

Oh, I see, in your quick desire to show us how "smart" you are - after all, you regular post easily debunked lies here and link to things that do not say what you claim they did - you made an inference based on what Ann wrote.

If one renounces their U.S. citizenship, they are by definition, no longer American.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...

Shut your fucking piehole and be grateful that pro golf made you fabulously wealthy.


I love watching the "You have enough" left in action.

Too funny.

Freder Frederson said...

Still got property taxes and sales taxes. Better to leave the state.

Property taxes vary greatly (even within a state). And generally, states with low or no income tax have higher sales taxes (the money to run the state government has to come from somewhere).

AJ Lynch said...

Tipping point will occur when all pro athletes [of all races] start to complain about total tax rates exceeding 55%-60%.

For instance, if Coli Kaerpernick wins the Super Bowl and I think he will, he will one day be the highest paid QB in the NFL- he would be a maroon to want to stay on a team based in Taxifornia.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...

If one renounces their U.S. citizenship, they are by definition, no longer American


Hey stupid shit:

Learn the first rule of holes.

Ok?

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...

If one renounces their U.S. citizenship, they are by definition, no longer American


I love the fact you actually typed this and think it is responsive.

Really, I do.

X said...

what he is saying garage, is that from now on, you will have to make your way through life without his assistance.

Seeing Red said...

OMG! Blogger banned Gates of Vienna?

Be careful Professor.

Freder Frederson said...

Tipping point will occur when all pro athletes [of all races] start to complain about total tax rates exceeding 55%-60%.

How will that happen when the top marginal Federal rate is 39% and state taxes (either sales or income, you get to choose) are fully deductible on your Fed return.

Tom said...

I read the article and I didn't see anything about Phil saying r was leaving the US. My guess is he'll follow Tiger, who grew up in Southern California and move to Florida or Texas. Phil has a lot of money and US tax law is such that if he leaves the country with over 2.5 million in assets, he's going to get hit with a huge tax bill from the Feds. His best bet to move to a warm, year-round golf state with low or zero income taxes. And thank God there are some.

The entire point of this situation is that he was going to buy into a group to purchase the San Diego Padres and it sounds like he's not going to do that now.

Personally, I think taxpayers should vote with their feet and move from state to state or city to city to get the lowest tax rate. My grandmother aways told me its not only my right but also my duty to pay as little in taxes as legally possible!

Tom said...

Btw, typing on my phone - so please forgive grammar and spelling issues :)

rehajm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
EMD said...

CA sales tax: 7.5%
FLA sales tax: 6.0%
TEX sales tax: 6.25%

Better yet, he could live in Washington and do all of his shopping in Oregon!

Seeing Red said...

Sales taxes-- those you personally can control by how much you buy and possibly how near to the border you live, as some in Taxachusettes may find out.

It's all a trade-off Feder.

X said...

why is there no such thing as the Baltimore Colts again?

hawkeyedjb said...

Go GALT, Job Creator® !

Some few folks my go Galt, but many more go Gator. Do you think Tiger Woods lives in Florida because he likes it so much more than he likes California? At some point that several-million-dollar hit looks like real money. It has nothing to do with whether you're an ass, it has to do with financial incentive. Should we pretend that financial incentive doesn't matter for really rich people? Or is the point that we wish really rich people would ignore financial incentive, so we can tax them some more?

Jay said...

I love this. Our silly little girl reveals she can't read.

Ann Althouse:
Which, if any, Americans are in a position to protest — effectively protest — taxes by threatening to leave the country?

Freeper: Freder Frederson said...

You really don't know much about tax law, do you? Unless Phil Michelson renounces his U.S. citizenship,


Um, you're really slow, aren't you silly girl?

traditionalguy said...

Florida is popular with golfers for no state income tax and a year round warm enough to play golf weather.

But The Nevada side of Lake Tahoe may be as far as he goes.

Jay said...

Fabulously wealthy enough to consider buying a MLB team.

Oh, and he was not buying the team by himself, dum-dum.

But you go on in your government sponsored spittle-fecked rage now, fat boy.

Colonel Angus said...

How will that happen when the top marginal Federal rate is 39%

Freder, we are running a trillion dollar annual deficit. Liberal democrats like Chuck schumer are clamoring for more taxes. When almost half the wage earners are exempted from Federal income tax, that means it will have to come from somewhere, and that means higher taxes, either through increasing the historically low marginal rates or through some other source.

The conclusion is written, higher taxes are a necessity, its just the playbook hasn't been hashed out.

garage mahal said...

Coming from the fat idiot (sucking at the government trough) who takes to the Internet to brag about his W2.

I don't work for the government, and never have. But you have a habit of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about, so this is not surprising.

JackOfVA said...

Renouncing US citizenship will trigger an exit tax under some conditions. (Tied to income, net worth and some other things.)

If the tax applies -- and it probably would in the case of high net worth individuals -- the IRS deems all your assets to be sold for fair market value and you owe tax on the resultant computed income.

Freder Frederson said...

Um, you're really slow, aren't you silly girl?

What are you, in sixth grade? Do you really think that calling me a girl is an effective insult?

rehajm said...

My favorite US tax dodge story-

Kenneth Dart is one of the heirs to a multibillion-dollar Styrofoam-cup manufacturing business based in Sarasota, Fla. In 1994, he renounced his citizenship and moved to Belize, a small Central American country known as a tax haven.

Belize promptly sought U.S. permission to open a consulate in Sarasota with Dart as its consul. Foreign diplomats are exempt from U.S. taxes, so the move would have allowed Dart to avoid U.S. taxes while continuing to live here.


As a non us citizen, it's difficult to remain in the US for more than 120 days a year without scrutiny. Becoming a diplomat would have allowed Dart to live in the US full time while continuing to avoid US taxation. That's how you go Galt...

The plan earned a "chutzpah" award from the late humorist Art Buchwald, but it was rejected by the State Department, which said Belize already was well represented in Florida with a consulate in Miami.

Former President Clinton, who was in office when Dart renounced his citizenship, was so appalled by Dart's action that 10 years later he refused to go to a political fundraiser because it was being held at the Dart mansion, owned and occupied by Dart's wife.


Thanks to Mr. Dart, people turning in their US citizenship now face substantial exit taxes, among other difficulties.

Seeing Red said...

--I don't work for the government, and never have--


Of course you do, you don't see it yet, maybe you never will.

LilyBart said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LilyBart said...

People don't generally sit still while their (self-interested) government and neighbors pick them clean.

The highly productive and the young will make other decisions- either to work at lower levels or to move on. Its just the way things are. And its why high taxation generally leads to lower tax receipts for the government and a lower growth rate for the country.

The old adage: Socialism just brings suffering to a higher level.

Freder Frederson said...

And its why high taxation generally leads to lower tax receipts for the government and a lower growth rate for the country.

Can you provide some evidence for this assertion?

Jay said...

garage mahal said...


I don't work for the government, and never have


HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA

We believe you, garagie!

Really, we do!

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...
Do you really think that calling me a girl is an effective insult?


You are a girl.

Note: threatening to leave is not leaving without renouncing citizenship.

Do you enjoy being so silly & stupid?

Freder Frederson said...

You are a girl.

And you are a boogerface!

BDNYC said...

Many prominent professional athletes spend the offseason (i.e., the majority of the year) in no income tax states like Florida and earn their endorsement income there. As I understand it, the tax considerations with respect to their salaries is basically a wash, as they have to file a state income tax return for each state in which they play games. So a player on a Texas or Florida team will still have to pay some state income tax, though what he will owe will be less since at least half his games will be in no income tax states.

rehajm said...

And its why high taxation generally leads to lower tax receipts for the government and a lower growth rate for the country.

This is valid. Lowering marginal tax rates increases the incentive to work, save and invest. Raising marginal rates reduces the incentive. People respond to incentives.

Europe has been doing the experimenting for us.

Seeing Red said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
garage mahal said...

We believe you, garagie!

I don't care if you believe me. Your assumption is about as good as reading of political polls though.

"Mondale type landslide!"

Seeing Red said...

I was actually going to suggest Europe, but Freder gets his knickers in a twist when people do.

It's like he thinks we don't pay attention to the rest of the world or something.

X said...

I don't work for the government, and never have

none of the government employees I know do any work either.

Colonel Angus said...

Interestingly, and contrary to popular belief, Federal revenue continued to rise despite the Bush tax cuts. Unfortunately, Federal spending outstripped the additional revenue gained.

Nonapod said...

LilyBart said...
And its why high taxation generally leads to lower tax receipts for the government and a lower growth rate for the country.


The concept of the Laffer Curve generally escapes most progressives. Many of them appear to think you can just keep raising taxes forever without their being consequences.

Seeing Red said...

The dirty secret of the Bush tax cuts was it did raise revenues and the rich did pay more in taxes.

jr565 said...

Well if you are going to retire and your income drops to zero (you cash in all your savings and put it in your mattress), you won't owe any income taxes anyway.

Yes, and that's what Mickelsen is saying he will do. Rather than pay that rate he just wont work any more. He can do it as he's already earned a nice living and doesn't have to earn a paycheck to live.
So the policy would in effect drive someone who was paying a lot in taxes to someone paying nothing in taxes.
He wasn't paying his fair share and now he'll be paying NO share.

Freder Frederson said...

Interestingly, and contrary to popular belief, Federal revenue continued to rise despite the Bush tax cuts.

How is this contrary to popular belief? Can you provide links that claim revenues dropped in the Bush years? I certainly didn't think they did. Any reasonably intelligent person will recognize that you can reduce rates and still increase revenues because the economy is growing.

The question is whether tax cuts pay for themselves (i.e., the increased economic growth as a result of the tax cut makes up for the revenue lost by reduced rates). There is very little evidence that at the current marginal rates, this happens.

Freder Frederson said...

Rather than pay that rate he just wont work any more. He can do it as he's already earned a nice living and doesn't have to earn a paycheck to live.

Well good for him. It's not as if the money he would have earned is going to be removed from the economy. Somebody else is going to win the money he would have won if he wasn't so burdened and put upon.

Seeing Red said...

Don't forget to add the repatriation of corporate taxes. The rate was about 5%.

Freder Frederson said...

This is valid. Lowering marginal tax rates increases the incentive to work, save and invest. Raising marginal rates reduces the incentive. People respond to incentives.

Europe has been doing the experimenting for us.


I don't think your link demonstrates what you think it does. It is much easier for a rich European to avoid taxes in his home country. European nations on the whole do not tax foreign earned income and Europeans can pretty much live in any country the EU they want to without giving up their citizenship in their home country or "immigrating" to the new one.

jr565 said...

Well good for him. It's not as if the money he would have earned is going to be removed from the economy. Somebody else is going to win the money he would have won if he wasn't so burdened and put upon.


So then why are the left pissed off at people like Depardieu. He took his money and moved elsewhere. Some other person will be paid what he wasn't and therefore taxes will still be paid.
And yes, someone might win the money, but they may not be living in CA when they do, so the taxes will not go to CA like they would now.

Freder Frederson said...

Some other person will be paid what he wasn't and therefore taxes will still be paid.

True, especially since Depardieu primarily worked in the heavily government subsidized French film industry. France will still subsidize its film industry. Presumably, Depardieu will no longer be able to avail himself of that subsidy.

Revenant said...

When you add up property tax, payroll tax, and state/federal income taxes, people earning good incomes in California pay over have their income to the government.

The government should never profit more from your labor than you do. That's just wrong.

Colonel Angus said...

Any reasonably intelligent person will recognize that you can reduce rates and still increase revenues because the economy is growing.

My apologies. On numerous occassions I have read on this forum and elsewhere that you can't increase revenue by cutting taxes.

The question is whether tax cuts pay for themselves (i.e., the increased economic growth as a result of the tax cut makes up for the revenue lost by reduced rates). There is very little evidence that at the current marginal rates, this happens.

Don't they pay for themselves by the pure fact that revenues are higher than before the cuts? How can you argue revenue is lost when its higher than before the cuts?

According to the tax policy center, Fed revenue in 2001 was 1,991 followed by
2002 1,853
2003 1,782
2004 1,880
2005 2,153.6
2006 2,406.9
2007 2,568
2008 2,524

So, at first glance, I would say yes, they paid for themselves. I don't think anyone would argue the economy wasn't growing. The problem is that we are simply outspending by huge margins. We are spending $2 trillion more each year than in 2000.

ken in sc said...

Soviet Russia solved this problem by making it illegal to leave and sending people to work camps and making them work for free—sometimes to death. Of course, dead people don’t pay taxes and using graduate level physicists to chop down trees is not really an efficient use of resources.

BTW, social security, pensions, and some other retirement benefits are taxed as income. I know because I am paying it.

Seeing Red said...

There is very little evidence at the current marginal rates....

Darn those goal posts, always moving.

Seeing Red said...

We know you can increase revenue by getting foodstamps, tho.

Seeing Red said...

What good is a tax cut if you're industry is gonna be regulated to death?

garage mahal said...

I would take Michelson much more seriously if he went Galt before he earned his 200 mil. Pretty easy to go Galt now.

Seeing Red said...

FICA is insignificant, Freder?

Not the Medicare portion:

To help offset the cost of providing health insurance to millions of Americans, the new law imposes an additional 0.9% Medicare tax on wages above $200,000 for individuals and $250,000 for married couples filing jointly. In addition, for higher-income households, the new law adds a 3.8% tax on unearned income, including interest, dividends, capital gains and other investment income.
Higher Medicare tax on wages and self-employment income. The Medicare tax is the primary source of financing for Medicare's hospital insurance trust fund, which pays hospital bills for beneficiaries who are 65 and older or disabled.
Under current law, wages are subject to a 2.9% Medicare tax. Workers and employers pay 1.45% each. Self-employed people pay both halves of the tax (but are allowed to deduct half of this amount for income tax purposes).
Unlike the payroll tax for Social Security, which applies to earnings up to an annual ceiling ($106,800 for 2010), the Medicare tax is levied on all of a worker's wages without limit.

Seeing Red said...

He didn't need to, but again, who did he vote for?

No whining if he voted for Obama, he knew what was coming.

pookaa said...

"Michael Douglas & CZJ were spending most of their time in I think it was Bermuda, raising their kids there.

Bermuda is very tax-friendly.

So did they pay US taxes or were they citizens of Bermuda and didn't pay their fair share?"

Michael's mother (Diana Dill) is Bermudian, and he has "Bermudian Status" (note, not citizenship, which is really difficult to obtain) as a result of being born to her in the US. Yes, Michael and CZJ did raise their kids there until a couple of years ago - I believe when his cancer surfaced. I'm not sure what the tax situation is/was for him when he was a resident there.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...

How is this contrary to popular belief? Can you provide links that claim revenues dropped in the Bush year


Hey stupid:

Everyone in the party you vote for said revenues would go down if the Bush Tax Cuts passed.

Do really, really enjoy coming here and showing everyone that you can't read simple sentences?

Seeing Red said...

It's like Gore, Lucas, Kerry & Eisner, they all talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...
I don't care if you believe me. Your assumption is about as good as reading of political polls though


Nobody believes you, troll.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...
The question is whether tax cuts pay for themselves (i.e., the increased economic growth as a result of the tax cut makes up for the revenue lost by reduced rates). There is very little evidence that at the current marginal rates, this happens


It is so cute when people like you look for "evidence"

Kind of like the belief that increased numbers of firearms (and decreased regulation of firearms) leads to violence.

You have all sorts of "evidence" for that in America I bet.

PS: were revenues higher after the Bush tax cuts than before they were enacted? Yes, yes they were.

But you carry on about "Paying for themselves" as if it is some sort of serious question.

Freder Frederson said...

Don't they pay for themselves by the pure fact that revenues are higher than before the cuts?

Umm, no. First you have to figure what percentage of the growth was due to the tax cuts. If growth would have been the same without the tax cuts, then the tax cuts have not paid for themselves.

Think of it this way. A tax cut causes the economy to grow by 1% more than it would have without the cut. If the economy grows by 4% (1% + 3% with or without the cuts), then the cut would not have paid for itself (tax revenues would have been higher if the rates had not been reduced because growth would have still been 3%, but taxed at a higher rate).

Colonel Angus said...

I would take Michelson much more seriously if he went Galt before he earned his 200 mil. Pretty easy to go Galt now.

Is retiring the same as going Galt? I can't answer for him but my earning incentive would start to rapidly decrease when I am paying 40 cents on every dollar.

I don't begrudge the man from wanting to keep more of his earnings but then I don't harbor a hatred for someone due to the size of their bank account.

Freder Frederson said...

Everyone in the party you vote for said revenues would go down if the Bush Tax Cuts passed.

Well then, it won't be hard for you to provide some specific instances since you claim "every" Democrat said this.

For the record, I am a Democrat, and I never said revenues would go down if the Bush cuts were passed. So you are already wrong.

Freder Frederson said...

I can't answer for him but my earning incentive would start to rapidly decrease when I am paying 40 cents on every dollar.

Really? Even if you were getting paid for playing golf? You do realize that the vast majority of golfers in the world actually have to pay to pursue their sport.

Colonel Angus said...

Umm, no. First you have to figure what percentage of the growth was due to the tax cuts. If growth would have been the same without the tax cuts, then the tax cuts have not paid for themselves

That's fascinating. How, pray tell do you know if growth would have been the same without the tax cuts?

I'm not an economist but I can look at the numbers and see that after 2003, revenue steadily rose. How that compared to GDP I don't know but it would seem your argument is based upon the assumption revenues would have risen without the cuts. Aside from having access to a parallel dimension device, I'm at a loss as to how you conclude as such.

Revenue fell after the 9/11 attacks and the corresponding tech bubble burst. Under what assumption would growth and revenue follow the same upward track leaving tax rates were they were prior to the cuts?

Seeing Red said...

This post from TaxProfBlog back in November discussed marginal rates:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2012/11/new-york.html#comments

M. McARdle also had something to say:

Update #1: The Daily Beast, Should People Who Make $250,000 a Year Worry About Obama's Tax Proposals?, by Megan McArdle:

Kevin Drum and Dave Weigel take off after rich people who don't understand that they only pay marginal tax rates on the extra dollars they earn above taxation thresholds. "This isn't true, of course. Obama is only proposing to raise tax rates on income over $250,000, so if your income goes up to $251,000, you only pay the higher rate on the extra $1,000. The tax bill on your first $250,000 stays exactly the same."

Their analysis is basically sound, except for the fact that it is not quite true. They have forgotten to look at deduction phaseouts, surtaxes, and the AMT, which are not taxes on marginal income. No matter what you have heard on the internet, there are in fact a lot of sizeable marginal inflection points for high earners....

I've put together a handy graphic showing you what income levels trigger deduction phaseouts or surtaxes. The red line shows you where the phaseout is complete--i.e., where the deduction completely disappears.

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...

For the record, I am a Democrat, and I never said revenues would go down if the Bush cuts were passed. So you are already wrong.


Captain stupid shit:

You are not an elected Democrat, which is why I use the term "party you vote for"

Again, did you wake up today and say to yourself "I can't wait to demonstrate my lack of reading comprehension at the Althouse blog" or what?

Jay said...

Freder Frederson said...

Umm, no. First you have to figure what percentage of the growth was due to the tax cuts. If growth would have been the same without the tax cuts, then the tax cuts have not paid for themselves.


Um, no, captain stupid shit, you don't.

See, revenues increased after the tax cuts.

So we have a baseline to compare against.

What is even funnier is that you think this silly answer of yours is serious.

Colonel Angus said...

Really? Even if you were getting paid for playing golf? You do realize that the vast majority of golfers in the world actually have to pay to pursue their sport.

No, that's why I said I can't speak for him. Then again, playing golf is his means of earning a living. If he feels that the tax hit is counterproductive, that is his opinion.

For me, it would depend on how much I am busting my ass to see the Federal government taking near pert 40% of what I earn.

Jay said...

Colonel Angus said...

I'm not an economist but I can look at the numbers and see that after 2003, revenue steadily rose. How that compared to GDP I don't know but it would seem your argument is based upon the assumption revenues would have risen without the cuts. Aside from having access to a parallel dimension device, I'm at a loss as to how you conclude as such.


Oh don't worry Colonel, freepie's magical analysis conveniently shows that tax cuts never, ever, "pay for themselves"

Methadras said...

Back in the 90's I used to work in the golfing industry. I engineered graphite golf shafts for a lot of major golf companies; Callaway, Taylor Made, Lynx to name a few through another company I worked for. I hated golf, never liked it, but the work was fun and it paid the bills, but the fringe benefit is that you got to go out on the golf course a lot and test out the shafts. Also, I met a ton of golf pro's and I met guys like Mickelson, Couples, Singh in my time with that company. Mickelson is a genuinely nice guy. He has that kinda dorky vibe, but really just a nice guy. I wish him the best wherever he goes only because California and the fed treats people like this with a level of bureacratic indifference.

The state should be paying them for how much money the have brought into the state from the events they brought to it, but nope, the short-sighted bullshit that government employes towards even its most affluent citizens is with disdain and class envy. I hope Mickelson ends up in either Texas or Florida. They would love to have him.

Nonapod said...

I'll never understand how progressive are able to reconcile reality with their delusions. The simplistic assumption that higher taxes on the wealthiest people will always yield proportionally higher revenues over time is a prime example of the one dimensional thinking that is so common amongst them. It's like they are incapable of considering that there may be economic consequences for removing money from the private sector.

Chip S. said...

There appear to be a Law of Online Discussion of Taxes:

As the length of a thread grows, the joint probability of the assertions that

1) the rich don't need as much money as they currently have, and

2) cutting tax rates will necessarily increase tax revenues

approaches 1.

Feel free to make me the eponym of this law for ease of reference.

Freder Frederson said...

The simplistic assumption that higher taxes on the wealthiest people will always yield proportionally higher revenues over time is a prime example of the one dimensional thinking that is so common amongst them.

I hope you are not referring to me as making this "simplistic assumption." Because if you think I am asserting anything of the sort, your reading comprehension is as bad as Jay's

Freder Frederson said...

freepie's magical analysis conveniently shows that tax cuts never, ever, "pay for themselves"

Gee, I don't ever remember saying that.

borgjess said...

Feel free to make me the eponym of this law for ease of reference.

Done. CHIP's Law it is.

When they make the movie, do you want to be played by Gene Barry, or Erik Estrada?

Colonel Angus said...

Chip, realistically, the rich (let's just say millionaires and up for ease of a definition) don't need as much money as they have. Just like you don't need more than one car, or a seven bedroom house, or $100 Lucky Brand jeans when $25 Wranglers from Wal Mart serve the same purpose.

Seeing Red said...

Is that why you qualified your statement by incorporating the word "current?"

However, since we're only a couple of weeks into the "current" marginal rates, how do we really know?

Especially since things have changed drastically from the last time we had these marginal rates?

We didn't have these extra obamacare taxes & the state taxes to contend with.

rehajm said...

Freder Frederson said...
This is valid. Lowering marginal tax rates increases the incentive to work, save and invest. Raising marginal rates reduces the incentive. People respond to incentives.

Europe has been doing the experimenting for us.

I don't think your link demonstrates what you think it does.


Let's see...I posit people respond to incentives. The link says Britain raises taxes on millionaires. The number of millionaires drops substantially. What happened? Millionaires stopped working in Britain. Saved less in Britain. Invested less in Britain. Moved away from Britain. So Britain lowers the tax rate. The number of millionaires rises substantially. What happened? Millionaires worked more in Britain. Saved more in Britain. Invested more in Britain. Moved (back) to Britain.

What happened? people responded to incentives

Nope. It demonstrates exactly what I thought it did.

Chip S. said...

Colonel, I don't know what different people's needs are, so I base my conclusions on what I can observe of their behavior.

If someone is still working after becoming rich, then I conclude that he or she "needs" the money, and will therefore work less if taxed at a higher rate. This obviously doesn't apply to inherited wealth.

And I do understand that this distinction is difficult if we roll things back to the originator of the inherited wealth.

Having taken this conservative position, I'll add that the only evidence I'm aware of from the US of tax-rate cuts raising revenue is from the capital gains tax. And that's attributable to the timing of sales of previously held assets.

Bob Ellison said...

That's too bad. I've enjoyed watching him pitch Enbrel with the classic opening line (IIRC): "If you've been suffering from joint pain, I've been in your shoes."

Every time I see it, I yell "Stop wearing my shoes, Phil Mickelson! Maybe my joint pain would be better if you didn't keep wearing down the soles! Or at least lose a few pounds; it's no wonder my shoes are flat with you smooshing them down all the time!"

Colonel Angus said...

Chip,

I don't know if the increased revenue is from income tax cuts or capital gains cuts. All I know is what the numbers show, and that is increased revenue following the 2003 cuts.

I don't know what the magical sweet spot is for an optimal tax rate. Personally I think a 39% marginal rate is pretty high but I'm not an economist. I do think we could use with a broadening of the tax base versus raising rates. All an increase does is make me re adjust my income which is easier as a business owner than the average worker drone.

The flip side of this discussion is that we simply cannot bring in enough tax revenue to offset the massive spending we are currently in. It's simply out of control.

Freder Frederson said...


What happened? people responded to incentives

you forgot about the part of your statement that higher taxes result in lower incentives to "save and invest". I was not arguing that someone who is rich will not move or change his investment strategy to reduce his tax burden. I dispute the contention that a large number of people will work (and earn) less to reduce their tax burden. Mickelson could indeed significantly lower his tax burden by moving to Texas or Florida. But if he just quits working, he will certainly earn less (with almost no impact on the rest of us) than if he just sucked it up and paid his taxes.

Freder Frederson said...

If someone is still working after becoming rich, then I conclude that he or she "needs" the money

By my definition, you aren't rich unless you don't "need" to work.

Seeing Red said...

Large number of people?

As Colonel Angus points out, business owners have more flexibility than employees.

What can employees do?

Off the top of my head, I guess they could ask for more vacation time in lieu of a raise.

What else could they do? In this economy quit and hope to find a lower-paying job?

Move to lower-tax states?

Those who are stuck and employees will have less to invest and save.

Chip S. said...

Colonel, I also think that a top federal tax rate of 39% is high, particularly when state and local taxes are taken into account.

Some economists like Piketty and Saez claim that the top rate should be the rate that maximizes revenue from the top earners. The basic idea is that their consumption should be valued at zero at the margin by "society". Since I think income is obviously valuable to the people who work to produce it, I reject the idea that we should maximize revenue from the top earners.

The "optimal" tax rate is the one at which the marginal cost of revenue raised by taxation equals the marginal benefit of government spending (at all levels of government). It's been estimated from NZ data that when the top income-tax rate is 40%, then a dollar of revenue must generate $8 of benefit thru government spending to be worthwhile.

Since an 8-to1 benefit/cost ratio seems unlikely to me, I think 40% is too high a top rate. But that's not b/c I think that revenue would be higher at a lower rate.

Milton Friedman is alleged to have said, "If revenue rises when tax rates are cut, then tax rates haven't been cut enough."

Seeing Red said...

What about those who don't work because the taxpaying citizens have met their needs by redistribution?

Colonel Angus said...

Sure he will certainly earn less if he retires. Then again he has enough money that he doesn't have to suck it up and pay those tax rates. He may conclude its no longer worth it to continue golfing.

After all, Obama did say at some point you've made enough money. Imagine what would happen if those folks said, yeah, you're right and just quit making money.

Colonel Angus said...

Chip, on your 1:35 post; I find no issues with that at all and makes a lot of sense.

TosaGuy said...

Regardless of all the political posturing and point scoring we are making with regard to Mickelson and CA taxes, the bear in California's room is that if enough folks with Mickelson money move out of the state then the balanced budget prediction for California lands in a deep sand trap.

We shall see what happens.

Colonel Angus said...

Too bad we can't get Mulligans on some of our election results.

wrisky said...

The source article for the Mickelson piece was total satire. According to the author over at Forbes.

wrisky said...

The source article for the Mickelson piece was total satire. According to the author over at Forbes.

Nonapod said...

Freder Frederson said...
I hope you are not referring to me as making this "simplistic assumption." Because if you think I am asserting anything of the sort, your reading comprehension is as bad as Jay's


Wasn't directed at you specifically (you at least seem to acknowledge the possibility of lower tax rates potentially leading to higher revenues). I was referring more broadly to those class warriors that make up the Democratic elected establishment, most notably our Class Warrior in chief who has spent an inordinate amount of time demagoguing using ingenious phrases like "fair share".

LilyBart said...

Freder Frederson said...

I dispute the contention that a large number of people will work (and earn) less to reduce their tax burden.


Actually, with the tax structure being as progressive as it is, it really doesn't take a 'large number' to make an impact.

Incidently, I just witnessed most of my clients working hard to sell investments and businesses at the end of the year to avoid paying the higher 2013 cap gains tax rate. Even people I know voted for Obama. Even one person I know who signed one of the "please, Mr. President, tax me more" letters did it. It was rampent.

Business owners and 'rich' people can move to make changes quickly. Higher earning 'wage' based workers will change behavior and choices more slowly.


Anthony said...

Americans are taxed on world wide income, regardless of domicle (as an American living in London, I know that, I pay taxes n teh UK and US). So no matter where Mickelson lives, he will pay US income taxes.

David said...

Zeta-Jones is a Brit. As such, she can avoid British taxes by living in Bermuda. Because her spouse Michael is American, he is (with small exceptions) taxed by the US on all his income wherever he lives. Her income was probably as large as his, so the main tax advantage would have been for her income.

The US system of taxing all Americans on worldwide income is very unusual. An American can not do what Depardeau did and get the same tax result.

39% is not historically low. Historically low is zero, as we have not had an income tax for most of our history.

The issue of what a "fair share" is has nothing to do with fairness and all to do with manipulation and power. There's no way to get a consensus on what is "fair" about a rate because there's no single standard. Everyone gets to create their own.

The main objective should be to avoid levels of taxation that will decrease the economic value of work and enterprise so low that the whole society becomes less able to produce jobs and wealth. That rate is lower than a lot of people think. A rate of 62% clearly makes wealth and job creation more difficult.

The creation of private wealth was supressed from 1932-63, which was the era of very high US taxes. As our rates have gone down starting with the JFK cuts, our wealth creation has increased. This has lead to the largely phony issue of the wealth and income "gaps." There's a gap because the upward potential is now so high.

In the 30's, 40's and 50's capital creation was difficult because of high taxes and those already rich had great advantages because they had the capital. The income gap may have increased, but economic opportunity at all levels is far better now than in the Roosevelt to Kennedy era.

rehajm said...

Freder Frederson said...
I dispute the contention that a large number of people will work (and earn) less to reduce their tax burden.


They aren't working less to reduce their tax burden. They are choosing other activities over working.

rehajm said...

Freder Frederson said...
I dispute the contention that a large number of people will work (and earn) less to reduce their tax burden.


...and not only will people work less as a result of higher marginal rates, they will work more faced with lower marginal rates. In fact, if you create revenue neutral tax policy that lowers marginal rates but eliminates tax expenditures (those pesky 'loopholes'), you still get gains in GDP. It's the marginal rate that matters most.

Ruth Anne Adams said...

Depart! Do! [in French, the 't' is silent.]

Jose_K said...

David Price did:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/david-price-tampa-bay-rays-new-contract-10-million-dollars-new-years-eve-avoids-fiscal-cliff-saves-pitcher-six-figures-011513
Toronto and Montreal had problems because of taxes

Chuck said...

I wrote to Prof. Althouse privately, but as one of her most adoring fans, I think she really failed with this blog entry.

1. Phil Mickelson said nothing about leaving the country. The Forbes writer did. After the transcript showed oen of the golf writers jokingly asking Mickelson about "moving to Canada," apparently a la Alec Baldwin.

2. The tax discussion began, as far as I know, with Phil trying to speak intelligently but discretely to the issue of his possibly being part of the constorium to purchase the San Diego Padres. I don't know what Phil's special problems are in that regard (creating that sort of personal liquidity, etc.) but the complaints made against him are far more hysterical than anything he said.

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Akiva said...

In direct answer to your question - when I was working as a software project manager in New York, 4 Indian-American (from India, not Native Americans) who'd been in the US an average of 10-15 years each, left my team to return to India due to growing opportunities there and decreasing opportunities here. (These were software developers earning an average of $130,000 each.)

I myself, an American-Jew, then turned around and emigrated to Israel and am currently leading software projects in Jerusalem (leaving behind a $180,000 gross salary).

More people than you may think have options. Particularly high level performers in valuable fields.