January 21, 2013

"I need over 7 rounds (rapists are harder to kill than deer)."

Sign at a "Guns Across America" rally.

50 comments:

madAsHell said...

Are we saying that it's OK to kill up to seven kids, but you'll need to re-load to kill the rest??

bpm4532 said...

That's one interpretation.

The Drill SGT said...

The Mom who recently put 5 of 6, 38 caliber revolver rounds into the guy invading her house would have been SOL if there had been two guys, not one

Don't go to a gunfight with a pistol that doesn't start with a '4'

Mark said...

Yes, seven shots when you are using a squirrel gun or cannot shoot.

Next, are you going to ask for enough rounds kill someone with a BB gun?

rhhardin said...

High capacity is a defensive feature, not an offensive one.

The offensive guy is prepared and has lots of ammunition in any size.

The defensive guy has only had time to grab the gun. The bigger the capacity, the better chance at defense hs has.

Mitchell the Bat said...

At a certain point, additional rounds serve mainly for emphasis.

The Drill SGT said...

PS: anything worth shooting is worth shooting more than once.

Bullets are cheap, life is priceless...

Bob said...

At a certain point, additional rounds serve mainly for emphasis.

Says someone who's never faced a drug addled, prison hardened rapist.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Deer don't usually do home invasions or robberies either.

ricpic said...

I thought the Left was all about compassion? And of course it is, compassion for its natural ally, the criminal.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Yes, seven shots when you are using a squirrel gun or cannot shoot.

Next, are you going to ask for enough rounds kill someone with a BB gun?"

-- I'm sorry; I'm not fully understanding this comment. Am I to understand if the woman can't successfully defend herself in seven shots, you're OK with her being raped? Because that's the natural conclusion from denying her additional shots over seven to protect herself. Unless you assume after missing seven shots she's capable of defending herself in hand to hand combat.

Matthew Sablan said...

"About 1,500 people showed up in Olympia, Wash. Former NFL tight end Clint Didier, who unsuccessfully ran for the GOP Senate nomination in the 2010 election, urged the crowd to prepare 'for the worst possible predicament' by stocking up on food, guns, ammunition, communication devices and medicines."

-- Except for the guns/ammo part, the people on the news and weather station tell us to do that every time there's even a hint of severe weather.

J.P. said...

Any theory that a seven-round magazine limit will slow a spree killer can only work on the idea that an unarmed civilian will assume the killer followed the magazine limit, count seven rounds, and then counterattack in the handful of seconds a reload takes. I'd much rather that said civilian has 20-30 rounds with which to return fire without being disarmed.

TosaGuy said...

Ask a combat vet just how hard it is to hit something when hopped up on fight-or-flight instinct and adrenaline.

Mark said...

Matthew, if a woman has no gun at all you are in favor of her being raped?

Matthew Sablan said...

"Matthew, if a woman has no gun at all you are in favor of her being raped?"

-- Foul, loaded question. The current hypothetical specifically dealt with a woman who needed more than seven shots, not rapes in general. Please answer the question asked first, then we can deal with spinning out. Would you deny that woman an eighth or ninth shot, or would you rather she be overwhelmed?

That's what we're currently asking about, and what you glibly implied: I just want to know if I interpreted your comment correctly, or if you misspoke.

Matthew Sablan said...

In short: We should not promote rape culture, even if it is of women who are bad shots.

cubanbob said...

The NY state republicans should push for the 7 round limit to apply to all law enforcement officers and the security detail of state and local officials with no exceptions. Make the laws, live by them.

Matthew Sablan said...

Also, the other reason your question doesn't follow logically: I have not said that women should be denied guns, nor have I argued all women should go about armed. If I were advocating either position, then the consequences of unarmed women being victimized by rape, due to my policy preferences, would be a valid question. The consequence, however, does not follow from what I'm suggesting, unlike the implication that a woman should only need seven bullets, and not one more, to defend herself, where it is logical to ask: "What happens if she -does- need that eighth bullet?"

This is Logic 101 stuff.

edutcher said...

Your average homeowner (or hausfrau) is not a marksman, nor have they been run through live fire exercises, so a few extra shots is probably a wise choice.

As for number of rounds, the M1911 .45 (8-9 rounds) was developed when a .38 revolver was found inadequate to stop a Moslem running amok.

Bob said...

@cubanbob
Funny you should mention that!
The ban on having high-capacity magazines, as it's written, would also include law enforcement officers.

The Drill SGT said...

edutcher said...
As for number of rounds, the M1911 .45 (8-9 rounds) was developed when a .38 revolver was found inadequate to stop a Moslem running amok.


FYI, the M1911A1 is a 7+1 weapon..

Bob said...

"Funny you should mention that!
The ban on having high-capacity magazines, as it's written, would also include law enforcement officers."

Folks, we're talking the NY state legislature. That's the body that makes the US congress look almost functional. Another rammed-thru in the middle of the night law where we get to read it after its law.

cubanbob said...

@cubanbob
Funny you should mention that!
The ban on having high-capacity magazines, as it's written, would also include law enforcement officers.


Laws are for the little people. The cops and politicians have qualified immunity. If the NY state republicans had both brains and balls they would force the issue. It would be grat theater to see Cuomo, Bloomberg and the cop unions make the case of why their lives are more valuable than those of the great unwashed citizenry.

edutcher said...

Drill, I've seen reference to M1911s that had a 9 round capacity.

I knew about the 8 rounds (7 + 1), but is the 9 rounds true?

The Drill SGT said...

All the M1911A1 mags in Federal service are 7 rounds. There are two sources for your 9 round memory.

apparently there are civilian after-market 9 round mags with an extended length mag.

The Colt Commander variant (looks like a well made M1911A1), is fitted for a 7 round mag if it is chambered for 45. However, it can be chambered for 9mm, in which case the mag is 9 rounds.

al said...

Standard 1911 magazines hold 7. Wilson Combat, among others, make 8 round mags for the 1911

edutcher said...

Thanks, guys.

Hagar said...

and Wilson and others also make 10 round magazines for M1911 .38 Super.

And you can get oddity magazines that extend below the hand grips and hold more rounds yet.

Phil said...

Well, I've been wanting a 1911 for a long time; now I have a better excuse. If I only get 7 shots, I want them to knock the dog out of the guy on the receiving end.

traditionalguy said...

Interesting that the British Newspaper is frightened by a crowd of armed protesters.

The Monarchy has always feared armed peasants revolts.

Hint: Just get rid of the murderous and stupid Kings and live as free men live unafraid of other free men.

Carol said...

My Smith 1911 held 8+1. That's why I chose it instead of Kimber or Springfield.

jr565 said...

THis idea of 7 round clips sounds a bit arbitrary. How did they come up with that number anyway?
It reminds me of this bit from Something About Mary where Ted is picked up by a hitchhiker and they have a discussion about the Hitchhikers million dollar business idea;

"Hitchhiker: You heard of this thing, the 8-Minute Abs?
Ted: Yeah, sure, 8-Minute Abs. Yeah, the excercise video.
Hitchhiker: Yeah, this is going to blow that right out of the water. Listen to this: 7... Minute... Abs.
Ted: Right. Yes. OK, all right. I see where you're going.
Hitchhiker: Think about it. You walk into a video store, you see 8-Minute Abs sittin' there, there's 7-Minute Abs right beside it. Which one are you gonna pick, man?
Ted: I would go for the 7.
Hitchhiker: Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk.
Ted: You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?
Hitchhiker: If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from "A" to "B".
Ted: That's right. That's - that's good. That's good. Unless, of course, somebody comes up with 6-Minute Abs. Then you're in trouble, huh?
[Hitchhiker convulses]
Hitchhiker: No! No, no, not 6! I said 7. Nobody's comin' up with 6. Who works out in 6 minutes? You won't even get your heart goin, not even a mouse on a wheel.
Ted: That - good point.
Hitchhiker: 7's the key number here. Think about it. 7-Elevens. 7 dwarves. 7, man, that's the number. 7 chipmunks twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.
Ted: Why?
Hitchhiker: 'Cause you're fuckin' fired! "


Robin said...

New York's seven round limit means that an M1 Garand rifle, first issued to the US Army in the '30's, and currently sold at a subsidized rate to US citizens by the government itself, is illegal with its 8 round enbloc clip (the correct usage BTW).

Astro said...

You should have pointed out that the sign was being held by 2 women. Much more effective, I think.

Personally, I liked the 'This machine kills fascists' (with an image of an assualt rifle) sign, which is an hilarious play on the same words Woodie Guthrie had on the back of his guitar.

Paul said...

There have been home invastions with more than FIVE attackers. Gangs of thugs attacking people coming out of dinners.

Plus even the police have only about a 25 pct it rate.

So yea, SEVEN shots may very well not be enough.

But then that is not the point. If they can 'allow' you only seven shots, why not SIX? Why not FIVE? Or just one?

After all, if only one life is saved...

Revenant said...

Matthew, if a woman has no gun at all you are in favor of her being raped?

That question doesn't actually make any sense.

A woman with no gun has chosen not to defend herself. A woman forced by law to use an inadequate weapon is not being allowed to defend herself.

There's a world of difference between the two.

Cedarford said...

rhhardin said...
High capacity is a defensive feature, not an offensive one.

===============
Not true.
High capacity is useful in offensive ops, as the deranged Adam Lanza knew.
There is a reason the military designated those soldiers rifles "Assault rifles", not "defense rifles".

Robin said...

The original magazine for the M1911 was seven rounds but several manufacturers currently sell their M1911 pistols with eight round magazines.

It only took redesigning a small part in the magazine to increase the capacity by one.

Robin said...

Cedarford, the rifle Lanza used was not an assault rifle. Your implication is false.

Robin said...

This guy could have used more than seven rounds.

Mick Havoc said...

You can never be too rich, too thin or have enough ammunition.

Cedarford said...

Robin, the 'fact' rhardin was trying to claim was high capacity weapons are only 'defensive', which is a false fact. I wasn't labelling Lanza's weapon as an assault rifle. Since it wasn't full auto, be definition it isn't, though it has the same ammo and hi-capacity magazine.

A selective fire assault rifle is pretty useless on the attack without a high capacity magazine. So M-4s, Ak-47s, AK-74s are all equipped with the same 30 round size clip - good for weight, clearances in fighting, keeping better fire discipline when storming enemy positions.


The same magazine in same ammo size, in a semi-auto rifle is almost perfect for killing large numbers of kids in a psycho boy's offensive attack.

Many weapons have both offensive and defensive uses. Machine guns and squad (SAW) rifles and MK-19 grenade launchers are great in perimeter defense, and also great when you are in assault on the enemy..

Robin said...

Right Cedarford, because with 10 round magazines, Lanza's attack would have taken a good 15 or 30 seconds longer ...

Which. since it took police 20 minutes to respond, would have made all the difference in the world.

Synova said...

"High capacity is a defensive feature, not an offensive one."

See now, I read "feature" in a less exclusive way, so I don't see that statement as it's either all defensive or all offensive. The argument that a larger capacity magazine is a defensive feature not an offensive one (assume context of civilian use) makes sense.

If I ever carry my new PPQ for self defense or keep it at hand for home defense I'm not likely to keep a second full magazine in my purse and fumbling around for a second magazine in an emergency at home, possibly in the dark, seems like a non-starter, too. In practical terms I've got what one magazine will hold. (And I'm half convinced that the lady who shot the intruder 5 times with a revolver probably left the sixth chamber (?) empty. People don't always load their weapon to capacity.)

But if I were preparing for an offensive situation, if I was a crazy or if I were a cop, I'd prepare by having a second or even third loaded magazine handy, and maybe even a second gun with ammo. (The crazies always seem to arrive with an arsenal.) Larger capacity would be useful, but it's not the same sort of *limiting* factor as magazine size in usual defensive use.

Yes? No? Made sense to me.

ErnieG said...

The seven round limit on magazines is a Catch-22 provision, and has nothing to do with safety. It would outlaw standard magazines, and make felons of law-abiding citizens. These magazines could be specially manufactured for current weapons, but owners of older weapons would be SOL (Simply Out of Luck). As to the problem of no exception for police having illegal magazines, they wouldn’t have to worry because the Gregory Rule* would apply.

*Named for that groundbreaking legal scholar, David Gregory of MSNBC, who established that firearms laws do not apply to the right people.

JAL said...

I see they did not include the photo of the sign which says "What part of 'shall not infringe' do you not understand?"

I kinda liked that one.

As for defensive use of weapons, those who are anti-gun, or anti-7+, the reality appears to be ( ;-) ) that the number of people who do use a gun for self defense doesn't make the news, but it happens on a regular basis.

Guess the kids and women -- not to mention the men -- who defend themselves and save their lives using guns don't count.

kentuckyliz said...

Groups of rapists, robbers, and wild dog packs.

Why assume a single attacker?

Firehand said...

JR, they chose 7 because they don't know what the hell they're talking about; since almost all modern semi-auto pistols- and many rifles- have standard magazines holding ten rounds or more, they thought that would ban ALL of them. To borrow a phrase from Tam, "This is what comes of people who worry about "shoulder things that go up" writing firearms law."

And yeah, they were in such a damn hurry to shove this through that they forgot to exempt law enforcement; so until they pass an exemption, cops are in violation and should be arrested if they load more than seven rounds in their mags. Hey, Howler Cuomo demanded it be passed NOW, we expect them to bother to read the damn thing?

By the way, Tam's link: http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2013/01/cash-for-clunkers.html

RantsInMyPants said...

It's almost over... The Republic is waning. The government is positioning itself as our nanny and dictating our second amendment rights, deciding what we should eat and soon, IMHO, dictating first amendment rights. I see a day soon when "hate speech" will be regulated. Chicago King Emanuel recently opined regulations limit duck hunting to three shells and asked why ducks should be better "protected" than people. Rome is burning. Sad, very sad. The NY law actually banned LEO from possessing more than 7 round magazines or "clips" as low information humans refer to them