December 17, 2012

"There's no way. There's no way he could have gone for a gun. He hated guns. He was afraid of guns. He was scared of guns."

"I'm sure he was drunk... A lot of people get drunk in Madison."
I was a UW student. I saw how people can drink downtown and stumble home. And people will stumble around and be confused and stupid and drunk but they don't get shot. They don't get shot by police officers, but they could. It could have been anybody....

"I hope the community will never forget this.... And I hope that they will remember this every time that they have to call the police."

40 comments:

Mitchell the Bat said...

"You know, this could've happened to anyone," said Emily Heenan. "But it happened to my brother."

Looks like stupid runs in the family.

Expat(ish) said...

One could make a comment about gun control and public safety officers, but then one would be "one of those people." So one won't.

Seriously, people really misunderstand the police, what they can and will do, and what you have to put up with as a citizen.

Ann, you might consider posting the famous "don't talk to the police" video and giving your take on it.

-XC

AllenS said...

Sure. He might have hated guns and everything, but once he was full of liquid courage, he feared nothing.

Sorun said...

I don't trust the cops either.

Dashboard cams provide the truth in a lot of situations. Let's outfit cops with cams they wear as well. The cameras can be quite small, since HD resolution isn't needed.

MadisonMan said...

Two Police responded to the phone call. I'm often wondered what the second officer (a woman) was doing while the scuffle was occurring.

Also, do Police in Madison have tasers?

Palladian said...

Also, do Police in Madison have tasers?

Why not do an experiment and find out?!

Ipso Fatso said...

It would be intersting to hear what the homeowner has to say. I sure that will come out if there is an inquiry of some kind. I have had four guns pointed at me at one time by cops, I just did what they told me and I lived. They were after someone else but didn't know that at the time. If the kid was drunk as his sister suggests, then he very well may have just done something stupid and out of character for him and it got him killed. If you go for a cops gun, you will have a big price to pay.

Bryan C said...

"Dashboard cams provide the truth in a lot of situations. Let's outfit cops with cams they wear as well. The cameras can be quite small, since HD resolution isn't needed."

Both types of cameras should be mandatory.

And because embarrassing security video has a habit of getting lost, the video should be streamed back to a third-party repository for safekeeping, as well as stored locally in a physically secure, encrypted form.

prairie wind said...

Does the MPD have a perfect record in justified use of lethal force resulting in death, or do the powers that be just have a policy of giving the police officers involved the benefit of the doubt?

Great question. Cops are rarely held to account for shootings like this.

The Godfather said...

It's a sad story.

It's also a good argument against wandering the streets drunk.

Pogo said...

I no longer give the police the benefit of the doubt.

Video please.

Lem said...

Madison has a zero tolerance.

edutcher said...

Allen's right.

When the booze goes in, the brain usually falls out.

Meade said...

"It's also a good argument against wandering the streets drunk."

And a good argument in favor of locking one's front door. Reportedly, the homeowners who called the police to report a burglary in process had left their front door unlocked.

DADvocate said...

Reminds me of this incident in Cleveland on Nov. 29 where a car backfired or something caused a pop, police started chasing a car and shot 137 bullets killing an unarmed couple.

Don't know why he ran, other than the too common fear of cops by blacks. But, 137 shots at someone not shooting at you?

GrandpaMark said...

SAn Jose Ca:(Officer)Marshall later testified that he thought she was waving a cleaver at him and that he twice instructed her to drop it. He estimated that he shot Tran within five to seven seconds of entering the apartment.

The utensil turned out to be a dao bao, a vegetable peeler.

A man who was shot multiple times by police was carrying a gold-painted toy gun in his waistband -- not a loaded firearm as officers had suspected, authorities said.

It was the seventh officer-involved shooting this year involving the San Jose Police Department.



The Godfather said...

DADvocate refers to a case of police firing "137 shots at someone not shooting at you?"

In this case, the officer apparently fired 3 shots at someone he (allegedly) thought was trying to take the officer's gun. I wonder whether 1 shot wouldn't have been enough to discourage the civilian from trying to take the officer's gun?

mariner said...

What proof do we have that anyone was "trying to take the officer's gun"?

virgil xenophon said...

Police and DAs have a term for telling their "side" of the story: "testalying."

Paul said...

Maybe the cops THOUGHT he was going for a gun. That happens alot and yes the cops to shoot them.

And do note, it is not unheard of for cops to use 'throw down' guns.

leslyn said...

"I didn't believe it," Heenan's sister now says. "There's no way. There's no way he could have gone for a gun. He hated guns. He was afraid of guns. He was scared of guns."

"I'm sure he was drunk," continued Heenan."

Allen S is absolutely right. With "liquid courage" people do all sorts of stupic things. Hell, they do all sorts of violent things that they might not do if sober, or even remember. The "mean drunk" is not a fairy tale. Neither is the aggressive, stupid one.

They also are very likely not to listen to or comply with directions.

So yeah, it's not surprising when a guy who might never go for a police officer's gun when sober does so when drunk.

This is a story of a family in denial.

leslyn said...

"Taser" people:

So: What would you do? Give up your gun to an assaultive person so you can find your Taser?

Or do you think you should try to hold onto your gun with one hand, while the assaulter goes after your gun with both hands, as you try to juggle your Taser out of its case, point it with one hand, and pull the trigger--all while keeping your gun out of the hands of the assaulter.

Methadras said...

It's the guns fault!!! BAN THEM ALL!!! oh wait...

leslyn said...

Bryan C and Sorun said,

"Dashboard cams provide the truth in a lot of situations. Let's outfit cops with cams they wear as well. The cameras can be quite small, since HD resolution isn't needed."

Sure, we can get one like Meade's. Do they run for 10 hours? Do they have low-light/no-light resolution? (Cause I'm sayin', NO ONE is going to wear one with a light on their head. That's like saying, "SHOOT HERE.") Buy it on Amazon.

So: If it doesn't run for 10 hours, am I supposed to turn it on before I get assaulted? Does it come with precognition?

Or am I supposed to be fumbling for the camera button while I'm being assaulted or someone is trying to get my gun?

Tell me you're going to go to your local city council and put up such a proposal, with budget numbers.


leslyn said...

Paul said...
Maybe the cops THOUGHT he was going for a gun. That happens alot and yes the cops to shoot them.

This one is fun. "Here I go--I'm going for your gun now--No I'm not! Just foolin'!"

Or...let's pretend that when you have both hands on my gun and are trying to tug it out of the holster--"just foolin'!"

Or...."Hmmm. This guy looks like he's a gun puller. Yeah, that's it. Shoot him before it's too late!"

As Paul said, this happens "a lot."

leslyn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Loren said...

Maybe this post should have the murder tag?

Cap'n Chaos said...

dude weighed like 140 pounds...not a guy who could take your gun even if he wanted. the cop on the other hand had a history of escalating and unresonable violence leading to a suspension of that officer for firing his weapon at someone's tires in a parking ramp on campus and in another case he beat (admittedly) an asshole so badly that the city incurred the loss of a law suit d/t unreasonable force-not something easy to do when cops are beating a truly belligerant and assualtive drunk. in my own experience...me and my coworkers had a professional interaction with noble wray during another rather embarrassing episode involving a officer who stole heroin from the evidence room. In that case noble wray lied to us repeatedly-to our faces. I don't believe anything wray says where his cops may have messed up.

My guess is this will be swept under the carpet but I'll tell ya what-this guy needs to be done as a cop; here there or anywhere. if he won't quite it surely demonstrates abnormal human behavior and in that case the sister is right, he needs to be fired.

Kelvan Kringle said...

Capn Chaos,

Please expand on why males who are under 140 pounds are incapable of taking someone's weapon. I can remember being a 135 pound paratrooper and I was quite capable.

Kelvan Kringle said...

Capn Chaos,

Please expand on why males who are under 140 pounds are incapable of taking someone's weapon. I can remember being a 135 pound paratrooper and I was quite capable.

Kelvan Kringle said...

Paul said "And do note, it is not unheard of for cops to use 'throw down' guns."

Please give me more information about these 'throw down' guns. You seem so street.

Sorun said...

Leslyn,

To answer some of your dumb questions: Here's one that's quite small, doesn't have a light, and runs for up to 5 hours. (BTW, CCD cams often see into near infrared).

I'm not suggesting this exact camera, but small, long-running cameras already exist.

Please don't ask anymore stupid questions without first looking on Amazon for the answer.

AllenS said...

Maybe we need a national debate about banning alcohol. How many die because of alcohol in this country every year?

I'll bet it's far more than those who die from guns.

Cap'n Chaos said...

yes ms kringle yar could no doubt take a gun away from a 145 pound girl but maybe not from a 200 pound paratrooper nor a 200 pound MMA competitor either...but I digress as did you since since we're talking about a guy who had arms the size of pencils and was not a para trooper nor even particularly butch.

Nice that you took this as a opportunity to tell us how "street" you are though.

Cap'n Chaos said...

yes ms kringle yar could no doubt take a gun away from a 145 pound girl but maybe not from a 200 pound paratrooper nor a 200 pound MMA competitor either...but I digress as did you since since we're talking about a guy who had arms the size of pencils and was not a para trooper nor even particularly butch.

Nice that you took this as a opportunity to tell us how "street" you are though.

leslyn said...

@Sorun:

My questions were rhetorical.

You didn't get that.

Kelvan Kringle said...

Cap'n Chaos,

I have been to 2 funerals in the last 5 years for Chicago Cops killed by someone who took thier gun away from them. Neither of the killers were big. One was a tiny woman who slept in the police station lobby on a regular basis.

Kelvan Kringle said...

Cap'n Chaos

I never said I was "street". I said that there are plenty of dangerous people in the World who weigh less than 140 pounds. And that the idea that all police carry drop guns around with them is unrealistic

RonF said...

Drunk and stupid has killed a lot of people and will continue to do so.

RonF said...

Drunk and stupid has killed a lot of people and will continue to do so.