December 30, 2012

Fiscal cliffhanging on their every word.

Are you?

70 comments:

rehajm said...

No. As long as the framework for compromise is ignored, there will be no compromise.

Big Mike said...

No, I'm not hanging on their every word. I've been expecting us to go over the edge since the election. Fortunately if wife and I cut going to movies and eating out, and if I can coax my 12 year old car through the next few months without major repairs, we should get through okay despite the jump in tax rates and the bite of the AMT. Don't know what's going to happen with people who make a lot less than I do. If they voted for Obama, I don't much care what happens to them.

Ann Althouse said...

Oh, the rates aren't going to go up, unless you've got an income over $250,000.

If we go over this "cliff" thing they made, they'll just pass a tax cut for everyone but the over $250,000 people. Obama has said that, and it's the obvious game.

Hard to see how the GOP can avoid that result.

Rusty said...

Ann Althouse said...
Oh, the rates aren't going to go up, unless you've got an income over $250,000.

If we go over this "cliff" thing they made, they'll just pass a tax cut for everyone but the over $250,000 people. Obama has said that, and it's the obvious game.

Hard to see how the GOP can avoid that result.



You're being ironic, right?

somefeller said...

If we go over this "cliff" thing they made, they'll just pass a tax cut for everyone but the over $250,000 people. Obama has said that, and it's the obvious game. Hard to see how the GOP can avoid that result.

They can't, though I suspect the cutoff will be higher, more like $500,000. That's an easier sell for all sides. The Obama tax cut will be well-received.

No huge worries here, though I imagine the stock market will drop a bit next week, which may be more of a buying opportunity than a tragedy. But it's never fun to see a drop.

edutcher said...

Barry wants us to go over so he can organize the community some more.

Ann Althouse said...

Oh, the rates aren't going to go up, unless you've got an income over $250,000.

If we go over this "cliff" thing they made, they'll just pass a tax cut for everyone but the over $250,000 people. Obama has said that, and it's the obvious game.


Everything Barack Obama says has an expiration date

Rush Limbaugh, 2008

Deb said...

It's all theater, and all part of the plan.

Rustling Leaves said...

No, I think they are all full of bull. Whatever they decide it won't solve anything. Just a house of mirrors full of illusions. If they don't make substantial cuts and or tap into the middle class tax base they will find some other way to "tax" us, perhaps by further devaluation of our currency. No matter what, average Americans lose in the long run.

aronamos said...

By the way, that's $250K a couple., not individually. So inmy household, ee'll pay an additional $9k in income tax, plus the obamacare tax, plus christknowswhat else. Just becauae we're both pros, both at the end of our careers, with kids out of college finally. We were going to really start saving at this point, but no more.

Sigh.

Oh, well.The 'Skins play the Cowboys tonight.

bpm4532 said...

Obama and Reid never wanted to compromise. They wanted more taxes (even more than buried in ACA) and increased spending. These two should go down in history as the two most stupid men in legislative history or the most evil. There are no other choices.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

No. Because we are so financially screwed right now that there IS no solution. At least none that any of the scum sucking self serving politicians will make or that the welfare leeches will accept without violence.

Why bother worrying about something over which I have no control.

somefeller said...

Oh, well.The 'Skins play the Cowboys tonight.

Yes, watching the Cowboys win puts all right-thinking Americans in a good mood.

bpm4532 said...

during the last "great compromise" before the fiscal cliff deal, both sides were moving towards each other, but Obama kept changing his demand for cash with out "balancing" with cuts. If they'd wanted a deal, they would have made one. Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride in 2013.

rhhardin said...

Obama wants to redistrubute the seed corn away from the private sector so that everybody has more food.

That's how the left works.

rhhardin said...

It's time for more balance in impeachment and nonimpeachment.

edutcher said...

PS I seem to recall somebody speculating that Barry was looking at the $50,000 level, but that may be on the order of aronamos' criterion.

Hagar said...

The "cliff" hullabaloo, especially the income tax rise(s), is a distraction from the really serious stuff they need to cut, like the entitlement programs, and the financial and environmental regulations, etc., that are hamstringing the economy.

This is just classic magician maneuvering, a boom and a cloud of smoke on the right while the lady scampers off to the left.

AprilApple said...

Over the cliff we go. Clinton/Obama tax hikes for all.

Lem said...

Obama said during Meet David Gregory that he was opened to the idea of revising how the Social Security Cost of Living Increases are calculated.

Upon hearing this the republicans called for it to be included in the talks... and of course the democrats balked.

Did Obama willfully sabotage the negotiations by ad libbing it to David Gregory?

How can the smartest man in the room do this by accident?

Bob Ellison said...

Obama wants to go over the cliff.

Ann Althouse said "Oh, the rates aren't going to go up, unless you've got an income over $250,000."

I hope you're being sarcastic. The GWB tax cuts were very progressive. The Obama tax rise will be very regressive. Also, payroll taxes will go up.

The GOP will get the blame, somehow.

AprilApple said...

Isn't it wonderful knowing our financial future is in the hands of the shriveled old corrutpocrat Harry Reid?
Sleep well.

Humperdink said...

Cliffs by any other name .... is a debt ceiling crisis. Remember those of years past? Financial Armageddon or worse. It was a joke then and it's a joke now.

Worried? Nope, we will survive in spite of OweBama.

Big Mike said...

Yes, watching the Cowboys win puts all right-thinking Americans in a good mood.

Knew there was a reason why I figured you for a worthless piece of scum.

Go RGIII!

Big Mike said...

Oh, the rates aren't going to go up, unless you've got an income over $250,000.

Well I don't make nearly that much, but depending on what they do with the AMT I think that it will snag a lot of people. Fortunately, Virginia is a much lower-tax state than the deep blue states like New York, California, and nearby Maryland. Unfortunately I live in the bluest part of Virginia.

garage mahal said...

Oh, the rates aren't going to go up, unless you've got an income over $250,000.

They would only be taxed on the income over $250,000. Rates stay the same one on the $250,000.

somefeller said...

Big Mike, u mad bro? Understandable, as the Cowboys will make the Redskins feel like John Boehner after a negotiation session with Obama. Tears will be shed.

McTriumph said...

I thought the Bush tax cuts only benefited the rich, seems the Dems have changed their opinion. Truth is, if you want big government pay for it. We continue to spend wealth we, as a country, haven't produced. The end game will be disastrous. Math is hard, it has no compassion, it takes no prisoners.
Fiscal cliff?, that's just theater, the politicians don't have the courage to be honest with the public.

aronamos said...

Right, Somefeller, since that's just what happened last time they played.

edutcher said...

Last I heard you had to go to South America to find a fan of South America's Team.

Michael Haz said...

Oh, the rates aren't going to go up, unless you've got an income over $250,000

FICA increases to 6.2% from 4.2% for all wage earners beginning with the first dollar earned. That's nearly $100 per month for a family with a $55,000 annual income.

See the chart in this NY Post article. Allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire will increase taxes on individuals and families with incomes as low as $50,000. There are promises, but not in writing, that Obama will "allow" taxes to increase only on those with an income of $250,000 or more.

He always keeps his promises, right?

And there is the continuing downslide in the AMT minimum income, effectively a tax increase. And changes in capital gains taxes on all taxpayers.

To believe that taxes will go up on those earning $250,000 or more is to believe a fantasy.

Levi Starks said...

yawn

Michael Haz said...

We just got our notice about Fiscal Cliff taxes. For 2013 and the foreseeable future:

Medicare: increase from 1.45% to 2.35%.

Social Security: increase from 4.2%to 6.2%

If work is unable to apply all the changes to the first pay period (which is dependent on Washington) the changes will take place retroactively. As if the changes aren't damaging enough already, they could be slamming us retroactively. Get ready for some very slim paychecks, with full understanding that THIS is what Big Government means.

Lem said...

If you were going over a cliff and you could pick between getting killed or becoming a quadriplegic... no other choice but those two.

I would rather grow wings and fly like an eagle to the sea. Fly like an eagle and let my spirit carry me...

The Eagles got plucked out of the sky by Giants...

and the Patriots are drowning the Dolphins 21 to nuthing.

Rustling Leaves said...

I am sick of the headgames. I prefer blunt honesty. Tell us the truth clearly, enough of the fucking illusions from both sides. These are real people's lives you are playing with asshole politicians. I have to buy diapers for my kids no matter what you scumbags (Ds and Rs) decide. All I want for the New Year is for the fucktocrats to stop politicizing every last fucking detail of our lives.

Michael Haz said...

A majority of voters elected the president whose party has not submitted a budget in four years, and has no plan beyond "spend more, spend more". The amount of tax revenue they may raise is miniscule compared to the increase in the deficit. And they don't have a plan, beyond fungible campaign rhetoric.

McTriumph said...

Bill Clinton is an economic guru, we should go back to his tax rates. The politicians will cry that guarantees a recession, a recession is already baked in to the 2013 economic cake.

rehajm said...

Ann Althouse said...
Oh, the rates aren't going to go up, unless you've got an income over $250,000...Hard to see how the GOP can avoid that result.


Sure, there will likely be some kind of revision to rates after the new year- but what will Republicans require to reach such an agreement? Remember- this fight is just one of several coming, with the sequester and the debt ceiling looming in the next few weeks.

And your implication here is what? If you don't earn more than $250k, you've got nothing to worry your pretty little head about? Not the way the world works. It isn't always obvious who bears the economic burden of a tax increase. That 'millionaire' you think you're screwing? Their lifestyle won't change much- they will likely fire the landscaper, or the personal trainer, or won't hire the new employee(s) they were thinking of hiring. It's those folks that ultimately pay...

Levi Starks said...

If you've been living the last thirty years of your life conservatively, responsibly, with a focus on personal responsibility then you can laugh in the face of President Obama, and both sides of the house and senate.
If not then you're getting exactly what you deserve.
It must feel real nice to know your past present and future are being controlled by a bunch of political elite's who care for nothing so much as their own material future, and you can rest assured, that is assured.

Hagar said...

You guys are all forgetting tha your insurance withholdings are all going up as will the prices on evrything, not just milk!

rehajm said...

Ann Althouse said...

...they'll just pass a tax cut for everyone but the over $250,000 people.


They also need to address the doc fix, AMT, the 'milk' fix, the 800k furloughs at the pentagon, the...

Michael K said...

This is all tactics. Obama is trying to gain an advantage of the GOP for some future election, or something. Personally, I don't care much as I think we are all screwed. My oldest son, a lawyer and Obama voter, gave me a Romney chita pet for Christmas. He thinks it is all a joke. The chita pet went into the trash and his daughter's future will soon follow it.

McTriumph said...

Levi, that was once true, but with the present government borrowing levels all bets are off. In this environment, savers are suckers. When the tipping point happens, it won't matter how you lived your life.

David said...

I'll hang when the words stop being bullshit. So far that's all we are hearing so far.

Levi Starks said...

"You guys are all forgetting tha your insurance withholdings are all going up as will the prices on evrything, not just milk!"

Bring it on.

Levi Starks said...

McTriumph said...
Levi, that was once true, but with the present government borrowing levels all bets are off. In this environment, savers are suckers. When the tipping point happens, it won't matter how you lived your life.

I assume you're referring to our hyper inflationary future, and yes you're correct that there is no sure fire protection for that, but even in that case being debt free, with savings will preferable to being penniless and in debt.

McTriumph said...

Levi, when savers are getting negative interest rates for savings and the purchasing power of that savings is degraded by gov policies, I how you are right.

Savings in the stock market will be worthless once the Fed or bond markets blink. The Fed is what's propping up the government, the banks and Wall Street.

James said...

Oh, the rates aren't going to go up, unless you've got an income over $250,000.

If we go over this "cliff" thing they made, they'll just pass a tax cut for everyone but the over $250,000 people. Obama has said that, and it's the obvious game.

Hard to see how the GOP can avoid that result.


How will that pass the House when the proposal to raise taxes on those earning over $400K couldn't muster enough votes?

ricpic said...

I am sick of the headgames...tell us the truth clearly...

The truth is that raising taxes on those with incomes over a million or over four hundred thousand or even over two hundred fifty thousand while cutting the rate of increase in the rate of spending, primarily in the military sector, those two things will not even begin to attack the problem. The federal government takes in approximately $2.4 trillion while spending $3.8 trillion. That's for 2012 alone. That spread has been about the same since 2009. How does the federal government keep defying gravity? Quantitative easing. The federal reserve lends the federal government the spread at 0%. And how does the federal reserve come up with the trillions? It creates them out of thin air. The whole country is in effect floating in mid-air. High above the abyss.

What might put off catastrophe would be real substantial cuts in the entitlements, the primary ones being Social Security and Medicare. But for that there is neither appetite nor political will.

The collapse will begin when the 0% interest regime can no longer be maintained. There's already a slight warming of the housing market. That alone should make it impossible to hold down interest rates and then it's Katie bar the door.

Hagar said...

You have to understand that Obama is like Michael K's son above; he thinks that U.S. wealth is bottomless, so no worry, and this is all just about gaining tactical advantage over the opposition.

Maguro said...

How will that pass the House when the proposal to raise taxes on those earning over $400K couldn't muster enough votes?

Obviously the Republicans will cave after the Bush tax cuts expire, otherwise they'd have to block a Dem bill cutting everyone's taxes except for those making over $250K. Not gonna happen.

The funny thing is that this is a trap the Republicans set for themselves. What an enormous fuck-up.

n.n said...

ricpic:

The collapse will begin when the net-positive producers realize that they are being financially raped at a rate exceeding 10% per annum, principally through their investment and bank interests (i.e. liquid funds), but all of their capital holdings generally.

This epiphany will not occur until mitigating circumstances (e.g. illegal aliens, shifted environment and labor disruption, redistributive change) are resolved.

In the meantime, there is a progressive devaluation of both capital and labor, which ultimately concludes with citizens become servants of the state (i.e. authoritarian minority interest).

Bob said...

The day the REAL fiscal cliff hits is the day the Treasury has an auction and crickets chirp. Then everybody stops the theatrics. Sadly at that point its like the Captain of the Titanic yelling "Sharp right turn" 300 yards past where the ship's side collided against the iceberg. The ship is going down...

Bob said...

The day the REAL fiscal cliff hits is the day the Treasury has an auction and crickets chirp. Then everybody stops the theatrics. Sadly at that point its like the Captain of the Titanic yelling "Sharp right turn" 300 yards past where the ship's side collided against the iceberg. The ship is going down...

phx said...

The spin will be your taxes are going up because the Republicans want to protect their rich friends and keep them from having to pay their fair share of taxes.

phx said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...



12/30/12 7:53 PM
Blogger phx said...

" The spin will be your taxes are going up because the Republicans want to protect their rich friends and keep them from having to pay their fair share of taxes."

That may be the spin for you dullards. The truth is that the really rich will skate free with their Obama "get out of jail free" cards. The people who will be trapped by the new rates will be the small business owners who can't move because their wealth is fixed in a business, not stocks and bonds.

I wonder why "Red Dawn" has become popular enough to justify an revival. Seems odd among all this progressive celebration.

Aridog said...

Ann Althouse said...

If we go over this "cliff" thing they made, they'll just pass a tax cut for everyone but the over $250,000 people. Obama has said that ...

You have far more faith than I do. Obama will let the taxes rise, blame the Republicans, and leave them at the higher levels across the board....hammering home the fact the Republicans did it.

Show me any evidence that he would act otherwise?

The whole thing is a joke now, given the Obama-care taxes that are not part of "cliff" deliberations. It is intended that we do not notice the reality of a tax increase no matter what.

That ... and the dim witted Republicans "fellow travelers" think they can gain traction by cutting the formula for Social Security increases. They gave Harry Reid a great sound bite with that one. Good F'ing luck with the real base on that one...I'm getting Social Security benefits now (at 70)and after all the cost increases for health care and such, my net "take" from the 1.7 % increase in SSA this year? $8.00 ... I'll try no spend it all at once, eh? Maybe I'll wrap a fiver and three singles around a sloppy turd and mail it to the White House, or Harry Reid, or Mitch McConnell, or any of the traitor bitches in the House.

The 133% increase in health care premiums since retirement for me has a bit to do with that...13% just for this for 2013.

No matter what happens between now and 0001 hours 01 Jan...just bend over, your government with drive you home,bitches.

phx said...

I wonder why "Red Dawn" has become popular enough to justify an revival. Seems odd among all this progressive celebration.

Yes, a hugely successful film. Not quite as successful as The Three Stooges, or Diary of a Wimpy Kid: Dog Days, but that's just because of all the dullards who stayed away.

Aridog said...

phx said...

The spin will be your taxes are going up because the Republicans want to protect their rich friends and keep them from having to pay their fair share of taxes.

No one has more rich friends than the Democrats. Shall we just start with Hollywood and word north and east?

The "rich" will be protected by Democrats totally NOT willing to discuss deduction reform. If you means test, or eliminate, deductions and exemptions you place the rich at the disadvantage of paying tax on the loss of deduction at the full marginal rate. With the existing deductions and exemptions they pay at a reduced rate based upon greatly reduced AGI.

Hell, even the "poor" benefit...child care/earned income credits can get you a paycheck from Uncle Sugar even if you pay no taxes in to the feds.

Now who is going to interfere with any of the above shit?

No one, not Democrats or even Republicans....in any final vote.

It is all a charade. Bend over bitches....

phx said...

Personally I don't blame one party more than the other for the financial shit we're in - they're both equally culpable in my book.

My point is that if we go over the fiscal cliff, the rap will be on the Republicans. Once again, expressions of sympathy to the moderate Republicans.

Dante said...

Frankly, I hope we go over the cliff, and it hurts. I hope the cuts stick, and they hurt.

I want everyone to hurt.

This path we are on, one of increasing the wealth income and accrual, and reckless actions the ownership class has taken out on this country, have to stop.

I frankly don't even know which side is up anymore. I thought the Democrats were all for the little guy. But they aren't for the middle class, just votes.

I thought Republicans were for Fiscal responsibility. Reagan screwed that up.

Who is the Adult in the room, looking out for our kids?

Maybe it's it's the Wise Obamaphone chick "Keep Obama In President."

Kelly said...

I'm disgusted. My husband works for a filthy defense contractor. I don't know if contracts already in the pipeline will be canceled or what. For the pond scum in the zero administration it's all just fun and games. For some of us it has real world implications. I'm thankful that my house isn't underwater and we could sell fairly fast if need be. There's that at least.

They know what kind of financial crises we're in, and it's not due to the rich not paying enough. They're wreck-less, dirty rotten, no-good bastards. The democrats want to keep on playing pretend like everything is okay. They're treasonous and by God they should own the mess they are doing nothing to get us out of.

It's so freaking simple, why aren't they dealing in reality is the trillion dollar question.

chrisnavin.com said...

If both parties are responsible, then what about the people?

Aren't we responsible?

The less people have, or the less they perceive they have, the more they fight over what's there.

Bill S. said...

Like most people, I am sick and tired of our pols in Washington--on both sides of the aisle. What really pisses me off is that they don't have to live in the hell they have created for the rest of us. Most of them move on to high paying jobs as lobbyists or consultants, some retire and live comfortably on government pensions. All of them seem to accumulate wealth during their years in office--anyone want to tell me how Harry Reid has become so wealthy on his modest salary as a Senator?

Robert Cook said...

"Fiscal Cliff" a manufactured crisis intended to steal from the poor to give to the rich

Aridog said...

Robert Cook....rarely do I agree with your premise, but with the meat of that link, surprise surprise, I do. The author, Cheri Honkala, is not my cup of tea, but right is right.

The “fiscal cliff” is an artificial crisis created by Congress as a ploy to dismantle the safety net programs the American people have built up and relied on for generations. In their own words, corporations want to “use the fiscal cliff as an opportunity” to push for tax cuts for themselves and benefit cuts for the rest of us.

Although the “fiscal cliff” is allegedly about the federal budget deficit, many proposals actually under discussion show that it has nothing to do with the deficit whatsoever.

For one, President Obama proposed a so-called “chained CPI” formula that would cut Social Security benefits, especially for the poorest and most elderly. Social Security currently runs a 2.7 trillion dollar surplus, is a separate fund that by law cannot increase the deficit, and in fact has never contributed a penny to the deficit in its entire 77-year history.


Bingo! The "fiscal cliff" is also a version of "Oh, Look! ... SQUIRREL!" Taxes are going up on everyone regardless of that happens to the Bush tax cuts. Even Mitch McConnell has bought in to the CPI bullshit.

And the "debt ceiling" is no longer a congressional prerogative...due to lack of formal budget appropriations. The Anti-Deficiency Act is now meaningless, as I have mentioned before. The President can, and will, raise it to suit his fancy....tell me who will stop him?

Go ahead, think about it...I'll wait.

Aridog said...

Phx....

My point is that if we go over the fiscal cliff, the rap will be on the Republicans.

That has been the plan since early 2012, and definitely the intent post 06 Nov 2012. The "Rich" could care less about rate changes...it is deductions, credits, and exemptions where they have a vested interest.

So long as our dim witted majority populace believes the "rich" are all Republican, the truly "rich" will celebrate the perpetuation of all their exemptions, credits, and deductions.

When sequester hits and Defense is whacked big time...I'll be watching how many Generals and Admirals (800+ on hand now) will be sent packing. Prediction: flag rank officers will increase 900++...and I'll be watching to see if our US soldier KIA rate increases in Afghanistan, as it has double in the last 3 years of the total 10 years.

Effect: Me watching any thing is equivalent to mental masturbation. I have no voice, and neither do all y'all.

Aridog said...

Dante said...

Frankly, I hope we go over the cliff, and it hurts. I hope the cuts stick, and they hurt ... I want everyone to hurt.

You will get your wish, whether or not any tax cuts are retained or changed.

Robert Cook said...

Aridog, I'm surprised but gratified that you found the article an edifying discussion of what is really going on.

Talk of "Republicans" and "Democrats" is meaningless anymore, and whether by design or by the evolution of politics as affected by money, neither party really serves the people anymore. They both serve the financiers who have become the latter day lords of a world in which the rest of us are or will become serfs, although without the compensatory protection and justice.

Oshbgosh said...

Cliff or no cliff I feel a recession coming in 2013. There is too much government spending as a share of GDP to avoid one.