August 29, 2012

"It was only when the store opened I learnt Hitler had killed six million people."

Says the owner of a clothing store — in India — called "Hitler" (which has a swastika as the dot on the "i").
"I will change it (the name) if people want to compensate me for the money we have spent -- the logo, the hoarding, the business cards, the brand," Rajesh Shah...

Shah insisted that until the store opened he did not know who Adolf Hitler was and that Hitler was a nickname given to the grandfather of his store partner because "he was very strict."

"I didn't know how much the name would disturb people...."...
The row evoked memories of a controversy six years ago when a Mumbai restaurant owner called his cafe "Hitler's Cross" and put a swastika on the hoarding, claiming Hitler was a "catchy" name.

107 comments:

Ralph L said...

Nice to know that ignorance is universal.

I read that in the late 40's, the new Indian government polled their people about getting rid of British rule. They often heard, "Who are the British?"

Tim said...

I suppose it is plausible, in a disconnected, anti-British former colony way, than an Indian does not know that Hitler and the Nazis and European collaborators are responsible for 6 million Jewish deaths; it isn't plausible that an Indian does not know of both the name "Hitler" and his association with Nazi swastika (used as the dot on the "i") and what it means regarding the Holocaust.

John said...

Why is there always a denial of the other 6 million?

Almost 12 million were murdered in the German National Socialist death camps yet we only ever hear of the 6mm

This story would have been a good place to get the record straight.

I've got a dollar that says that someone calls me an anti-Semite here for pointing out that there were 6mm others.

John Henry

Larry J said...

It seems history education is as poor in India as it is in America. Good to know.

John said...

Tim said:

"Hitler and the Nazis and European collaborators are responsible for 6 million Jewish deaths;"

That should read 12 million human deaths.

John Henry

AJ Lynch said...

C-ford is really a retail store owner in India?

Tim said...

Alternatively, Rajesh Shah should invoke Obama's admonition: "I didn't build this," as a defense against his offense.

Bob_R said...

Qualitatively the same as a Che t-shirt.

Tim said...

"That should read 12 million human deaths."

Point well taken; I simply associated the 6 million deaths noted in the report with the Holocaust. No intent to diminish the other 6 million or more (I've read accounts where they were responsible for as many as 20 million deaths, but that was a long time ago, and I don't recall if that included civilian deaths from the entire war, as opposed to just death camps and mass executions).

wyo sis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MadisonMan said...

This reminds me, somehow, of those lists that Beloit College puts out, and that this year included the fact this year's incoming freshmen have always known Blue M&Ms and never known Tan.

We forget how rapidly names that are common to us recede away.

Still, if I'm naming a restaurant, I'm doing a little search on the name I choose. Sure, I may think 'Foutre' is just perfect and has a certain je ne sais quoi, but . . .

wyo sis said...

He will change it if someone pays him to change it.
Sounds like Obama's kind of change.

John said...

Bob R said:

"Qualitatively the same as a
Che t-shirt."

Quantitatively much much more benign than the Mao t-shirt or the hammer & sickle t-shirt.

The National Socialists with their paltry 12 million were pikers compared to the Russians and the Chinese. 60-80mm humans murdered between them.

The ALL need to be strenuously condemned.

John Henry

traditionalguy said...

Don't forget 3 million Poles and the 12 million Russian, Ukranian and Georgian civilians shot, hung or starved to death during Germany's blitzkreig invasions before the Russian stands outside Moscow and at Stalingrad.

Tim said...

Bob_R said...

"Qualitatively the same as a Che t-shirt."

Indeed.

Quantitatively one-fifth (20 million to Communism's 100 million) as bad.

Yet Marxists still enjoy tenure in American universities. Guess some bloodstains are invisible, depending upon ideology.

kentuckyliz said...

Before the Nazis ruined the swastika, it was a Hindu religious symbol invoking shakti, meaning "to be good."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

BarryD said...

My alma mater has an eatery called the Che Cafe, and it's been there since 1980.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A9_Caf%C3%A9

Though I am the son of two people who survived the Nazi regime, my father's family narrowly escaped the Holocaust, and the war shortened the lives of many of my relatives who did survive, I still think, "Hitler" is no more offensive than the Che Cafe, which doesn't raise eyebrows.

Why is killing innocents for one brand of socialism lauded, and for another, decried?

BarryD said...

'Before the Nazis ruined the swastika, it was a Hindu religious symbol invoking shakti, meaning "to be good."'

True.

And little mustaches were really fashionable for a while, too.

Now, you show up somewhere with a little mustache and a swastika, and it's considered almost as distasteful as a man wearing shorts on a hot day apparently is, in Madison WI.

William said...

You've got to admire the guy's ignorance. How can you be that stupid and still have enough intelligence to put on your shoes and walk..... Maybe it was an Indo-Germanic restaurant that served curried red cabbage and bratwurst. It was named Hitler to honor the potent Xylon B flatulence that caused so many of his patrons to perish.

The Crack Emcee said...

This is fairly common, if you follow this kind of thing, but - rather than the ignorance of Indians - I always wonder why no one ever talks about the education of the Arabs:

They know the Nazis killed the Jews and want to finish the job, partially because they were indoctrinated with Nazi propaganda during the war.

We simply don't study this subject enough in this country - or as deeply as we should - preferring a superficial appraisal to a real understanding, especially when it comes to the "spiritual" roots of Naziism.

I guarantee you, if we did, the Hitler Youth slogan of "Mind/Body/Spirit" wouldn't be accepted as the "alternative" medicine (AKA Nazi Science) slogan.



edutcher said...

KY Liz' point is well-taken (the original insignia of the 45th Infantry division was also der haakenkreuz), but, considering India sent close to 8 divisions to fight in the Western Desert and Italy, the argument sounds kind of funky.

Bryan C said...

He just happened to stumble across this nifty broken-cross symbol and though it'd be a good fit with that catchy name he heard somewhere. And then all this! Of all the rotten luck.

BarryD said...

"India sent close to 8 divisions to fight in the Western Desert and Italy"

Which side were they on?

They are, after all, actually Aryans -- unlike blond Germans.

Shanti Mangala said...

BarryD,

should we ban crosses from being a symbol for good since they were used by the KKK for intimidation?

Indians have owned the swastika for centuries before Hitler did - most people there consider it a symbol for good, screw Hitler!

BarryD said...

"should we ban crosses from being a symbol for good since they were used by the KKK for intimidation?"

I don't think we should ban anything. You must have me confused with someone else. I tend to think that we give words and symbols power that we shouldn't -- we were better off when the "n-word" was simply seen as a sign of ignorance that reflected poorly on the speaker, instead of the Big Scary Word That Cannot Be Spoken And Really Hurts People.

If you re-read my post, I think you might discover that it was meant as a joke.

Sarah Silverman sometimes wears a little mustache, too.

traditionalguy said...

As strange as it sounds to us, the Russians fighting to the death against the Wermacht Panzer Corps were Russian patriots fighting for their country's life, and they were also our best allies fighting the greatest part of the War to defeat Hitler just in time before his armament gurus came up with more super weapons like Werner VonBraun's unstoppable missles and Messeschmidt's far superior jet fighters.

We generously let Russia take Berlin where they suffered 100 thousand casualties while we sent Patton's Army for the secret weapon labs in Bavaria.

The Indians favored Germany's victory so that England would suffer defeat.

By the time we the victors started writing the naratives, the noble German people and the Emperor's sweet little Japanese people were our new best friends while the hateful Russians had become our enemy.

BarryD said...

(I think that Sarah Silverman has the right idea.)

Darrell said...

He sounds like every person I've seemed to have met in the US under thirty in the last few years. They seem to know nothing that occurred before they were born. Moreover, if it happened before they were born, it doesn't matter or is weird. Mention a TV show from the 1960s or 70s and they act like you are speaking a foreign language--like nothing before them mattered. Same with politicians and political events. Same with historical events. They do know that the US was behind most of the bad shit, though. And that capitalisms sucks. The Democrats/Left built that. Every fucking body and soul of it.

wyo sis said...

When the swastika became the symbol for Nazi it's meaning changed. It's good to know the history of the symbol, but there haven's been enough years between the Holocaust and today for people to find it acceptable.That's just a fact.

Pretending things happened differently won't change the facts. Even not knowing the meaning won't change the facts. As long as other people know it, the meaning is the meaning.

It's a little confusing to me that this person wants to be compensated for changing the name. Does he want to succeed or not? If he wants to succeed he'd better change the name.
If the previous owner's dad was called Dung Bomb it wouldn't be a good idea to name the restaurant Dung Bomb no matter how much it would cost to change it.

Lem said...

I have no reason to disbelieve this man... Hitler lover ;)

kidding..

Rocketeer said...

They are, after all, actually Aryans -- unlike blond Germans.

Just curious: what color hair and eyes do you suppose Alexander's foe Porus had?

BarryD said...

traditionalguy, the Soviets were allied with the Nazis until Hitler got it into his head to invade Russia in 1941. The USSR was an ally of the US only in that we ended up fighting the same enemy in the early 1940s.

That doesn't take anything from the bravery of Russian patriots. It does, however, make it unsurprising that US/UK/USSR relations reverted to the status quo ante, once Hitler was defeated. It's not the result of some sinister duplicity.

Nathan Alexander said...

Someone just needs to explain to the owner that as long as he keeps that name, he automatically loses every argument he is ever in.

Hagar said...

The swastika is also an old symbol among American Indians, which is why they were used all over, inside and out, on the old Kimo Theatre in Albuquerque (before Hitler and his Nazis had become notorious).
Some "scientists" have speculated it is a stylized pictorial representation of the supernova of 1054 in the Crab Nebula.

The German "hakenkreuz" always runs clockwise; the swastika can go either way.

BarryD said...

"If the previous owner's dad was called Dung Bomb it wouldn't be a good idea to name the restaurant Dung Bomb no matter how much it would cost to change it."

The reasons for that would be different.

I am glad, though, that Mel Brooks, Sarah Silverman, et al., have made fun of Hitler.

This store isn't a parody. He can call it whatever he wants -- and people can choose not to go there.

It's still no more offensive to me, as someone who grew up hearing firsthand about life under Nazi rule, than something named after Che. Americans are just stupid about Che, as this guy in India is stupid about Hitler.

BarryD said...

"Someone just needs to explain to the owner that as long as he keeps that name, he automatically loses every argument he is ever in."

Maybe we should take up a collection to have him change the name to Godwin's! Hell, he can even dot the I with a swastika, still, because then it WOULD be parody.

Sure, he wouldn't get the joke, but there'd be pictures all over the Internet, for the benefit of the millions who do.

garage mahal said...

Yet Marxists still enjoy tenure in American universities

Scrolling down, I was wondering what moron would be first be the first to compare Hitler to Marxists. Congrats, idiot!

Rocketeer said...

Scrolling down, I was wondering what moron would be first be the first to compare Hitler to Marxists. Congrats, idiot!

That's rich. Really garage, you're played-out. I'm sincerely almost as worried about you as I am about Andy R. Where does the deep bitterness and denial of reality come from?

You're unhealthy. Seek help.

Baron Zemo said...

They finally open a place that Cedarford and Garage Mahal and their friends in Hamas could enjoy and let their hair down among like-minded souls. Then they close it down.

There truly is no justice in this world.

Darrell said...

If he named his place "Garage Mahal," he'd get burned out in a week. That's something that India has over us. Good work!

John said...

Since I work with many, many people from India on a daily basis, I am not at all surprised that this guy doesn't know about Hitler or the Nazi death camps. Despite the fact that many Indians speak English, theirs is still not a Western nor an Anglo culture, and our wars and cultural taboos don't have the same meaning or impact to them. (For example, I had to caution one of my close friends about using the term "Japs" to refer to his Japanese neighbors... he was completely unaware that it was considered a pejorative.)

kcom said...

"what moron would be first be the first to compare Hitler to Marxists"

Yes, I agree with you, they are completely different. Nazis killed their political enemies by the millions based purely on ideology, while the Marxists killed their political enemies by the millions based purely on a slightly different socialist ideology.

edutcher said...

Hagar said...

The German "hakenkreuz" always runs clockwise; the swastika can go either way.

The same was said of many Nazis.

NTTAWWT

BarryD said...

Also, Nazis killed around 12 million people. Marxists have outdone them 20 times over.

garage mahal said...

Where does the deep bitterness and denial of reality come from?

Oh, not bitter. I find it fascinating that this stuff is just common knowledge in winger circles. "Marxists, Hitler, yea same thing!"

Good stuff, Maynard.

Tim said...

"Scrolling down, I was wondering what moron would be first be the first to compare Hitler to Marxists. Congrats, idiot!

Idiot, because 100 million killed by Communists matter less than 20 million killed by Nazis?

Idiot, because 100 million killed by Communists were spread out over four continents rather than one?

Idiot, because 100 million killed by Communists were killed over 70 years rather than 10 years?

Idiot, because 100 million killed by Communists were killed in the name of ""spreading the wealth around"?

Idiot, because 100 million killed in the name of recognizing "you didn't build that"?

Idiot, because 100 million killed by Communists somehow, someway, does not implicate the modern day Marxists who teach and promote an ideology, while protected by tenure and laws of free speech personal safety, that necessarily requires mass murder to effectuate?

No, the idiot is you, Garage Mahal.

You're an idiot of the worst kind, with a soul so corrupted by ideology that you cannot weigh in any moral sense the greater outrage of 100 million killed by Communists as compared to the outrage of 20 million killed by Germany's National Socialists.

Fuck You!

Christy said...

The question is: what do his target customers think?

You or I might not give him our custom. He makes his choice and lives with the consequence. Isn't that the way life works outside of Obamaland?

Paul Zrimsek said...

No suit for you!

kcom said...

What world are you living on, Garage? On this one, the death toll wrought by Marxists puts anything Hitler did to shame.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Any of you Madison people been to Garage Mahal's new clothing store, "Pol Pot"?

Darrell said...

Garage will gladly tell you, though, that Hitler and Mussolini were "Right Wing." He'll do it with a straight face and say that's it's absolutely true and accurate.

garage mahal said...

Fuck You!

No thanks!

Wally Kalbacken said...

I visited a BBQ place in the Quad Cities that displayed a spectrum of sauce hotness/spiciness on the wall next to a large menu. The most extreme barbecue flavoring was labeled the "Holocaust Sauce". I just about fell out of my chair.

ken in sc said...

In South Korea, a swastika is routinely used on maps to designate the location of a Buddhist temple. While I was there in the late 80s, a Nazi-themed cafe opened in Seoul. It had swastikas and pictures of Hitler and his crew all over the walls. I asked a Korean friend about this and he said that most Koreans do not think of Hitler as evil, he is considered a strong leader of his people. That he would deal harshly with--murder--his enemies is taken for granted.

Amartel said...

Fun Fact: The State of Gujarat, where this man's clothing store is located, abuts Pakistan.

The store owner is probably Muslim Indian. His last name is Shah.

The swastika is not a Muslim thang.

Many Muslims (to this day) admire Hitler due to their Jew paranoia.

Given these facts,

Hitler + swastika = not a coincidence.

I doubt very much that this is mere ignorance, as kindly suggested by the Israeli embassy, although I have no doubt that such ignorance exists in India generally just as ignorance about the history of India which did not directly impact America exists generally here.

BarryD said...

"Any of you Madison people been to Garage Mahal's new clothing store, "Pol Pot"?"

I was going to open a strip joint that serves fondue. But your post made me re-think it...

Hagar said...

Well, Garage,

Bill Ayers until his recent retiement hheld the title of "Distinguished Professor of Education" at UI-Chicago, and his wife, Bernardine Dohrn, is law(!) professor at Northwestern.

Rocketeer said...
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Rocketeer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rocketeer said...

I find it fascinating that this stuff is just common knowledge in winger circles.

It's also common knowledge amongst political scientists. It's common enough knowledge that, uncomfortable as it was for him, the Marxist professor that taught my Comparative Political Systems class in undergrad acknowledged they were both leftist movements.

Hitler and Stalin didn't hate each other because they were at opposite ends of the political spectrum. They hated each other because they were fighting over the same piece of the political pie.

Take a break from the internet garage. The strain of being wrong so often is really starting to show, and it's alarming.

Blue@9 said...

Curious why it freaks people out that some random dude in India doesn't know who Hitler was. I'm guessing he probably got little to no education, and any history education was focused on India.

Ken said...

garage,

I was wondering what moron would be first be the first to compare Hitler to Marxists.

Because the Nazis were Marxists, proudly and loudly? Because the Nazis were loudly prasied by all leftists, progressives, which are Marxists, until it became evident that his regime became, as all Marxist regeimes become, murderous.

That connection and the fatality associated with Marxism has been carefully whitewashed by the useful idiots on the left.

garage mahal said...

It's also common knowledge amongst political scientists

No it's not. It's common in comment sections of right wing blogs. And what passes for intellectuals on the conservative side, like Jonah Goldberg.

Cedarford said...

wyo sis said...
When the swastika became the symbol for Nazi it's meaning changed. It's good to know the history of the symbol, but there haven's been enough years between the Holocaust and today for people to find it acceptable.That's just a fact.

================
It's been 70 years since WWII. For many peoples that had nothing to do with being on the German side, it's been long enough....and efforts to make the swastika a permanent "globally forbidden symbol" are likely doomed.

Jews have minimal influence in most countries, and the nation of Israel is not popular or influential enough to make those other nations worry about their feelings. Only the US has the strange cult of Christian Zionism present in any real numbers.

Of course, the Vets of WWII on the Allied side would prefer they do not see it common again in their lifetime, but only 1% or so of the Vets of WWII are still alive.

It's a 2,000 year old symbol to Aryans outside Germany that had nothing to do with what the National Socialists did. Plus it is a geometric symbol that groups outside the Aryans have independently used for millenia in their designs because it is so visually pleasing and sometimes has other cultural symbology attributed to it (wheel of life, spokes, architecture that "opens up space"). It shows up in China, Japan, Slav groups, ancient Semetic civilizations, Navahos, S Pacific, N African designs, etc.


The analogy to trying for permanently banning the cross because the KKK briefly appropriated it, is a good one.


Smilin' Jack said...

I was wondering what moron would be first be the first to compare Hitler to Marxists.

That is pretty dumb. We all know Hitler had his faults, but comparing him to Marxists is just going too far.

William said...

The Nazis sent Anne Frank to a death camp. During the Cultural Revolution, teachers encouraged their students to beat to death those other students in the class who were the children of landlords. Just as a matter of curiousity, why would anyone consider the Communists less culpable of grand crimes than the Nazis? It is interesting to note that Mao's portrait still hangs over Tiannmen Square and that even in India Hitler's name is reviled.....For willful ignorance, no group in history can compare to leftists.

John said...

Garage said:

"Scrolling down, I was wondering what moron would be first be the first to compare Hitler to Marxists. Congrats, idiot!"

The German National Socialists were not Marxist but then neither were the Russian International Socialists.

They were all socialists, though.

John Henry

ampersand said...

I shall open a chain of Restaurants named "Stalin's Pantry"
All meals $20 prix fixe. Of course there's no food,but no exits either. Bon Appetite.

John said...

Is Garage Mahal really Henry Vilas?

Both are nemos but I have been coming to wonder if they are the same person.

John Henry

Darrell said...

This bullshit was a lie crafted after WWII by fucking Lefties based on less than nothing. Hitler/Mussolini were "nationalists" and the Left/Stalin/Marxism is all about internationalism and universalism, see? The people that knew it was all bullshit didn't have the guts/balls/gumption to fight it, make counterarguments. The Lie stood, except in one-on-one conversations, until the internet came along. The claim doesn't hold up for fifteen seconds when it is challenged and examined. Lefties in the US acknowledged The National Socialist movement as a legitimate variation of socialism before the war--especially when Hitler and Stalin were playing nice. Free markets and the lack of class warfare were just seen as a twist on a similar ideology. Fascism is less an ideology than a means of bringing a totalitarian government into power--the horse it rides in on. When you see that Mussolini took his ideas from French trade unions, you have a harder time labeling it "right." When real people hear the liars say that the Soviet Union wasn't nationalistic and dance that motherland versus fatherland bullshit on the head of a pin, they know the Lefties are lying.

Eustace Chilke said...

Before Hitler if you wanted the equivalent of calling someone Hitler you would have invoked the name of Napoleon - at least in Europe. You could name your store Napoleon today. I once saw a restaurant called Bonaparte's.

People call this Indian fellow ignorant but how recognizable would the names of Indian villains be in the west? Who would think twice about using the image of one of them commercially if they took a notion?

Time changes everything. Some new villain will take Hitler's place as icon of evil. It's probably too soon but maybe it's already happening in some places.

Penny said...

"They hated each other because they were fighting over the same piece of the political pie."

What is it about PIE?

Always only ONE pie.

Penny said...

Radical thinkers need to go to a fucking diner, for cripes sake.

The Crack Emcee said...

Wally Kalbacken,

I visited a BBQ place in the Quad Cities that displayed a spectrum of sauce hotness/spiciness on the wall next to a large menu. The most extreme barbecue flavoring was labeled the "Holocaust Sauce". I just about fell out of my chair.

That reminds me of something that happened, many moons ago, back in my punk days:

I had got a place with this chick - roommate situation - but she slowly moved her White Supremacist boyfriend in. Then, once the rent was secured, they connived to get me out by him acting out:

This jerk-off would greet me in the kitchen by offering me orange "Jews."

Long story short - I got his girlfriend drunk on courvoisier and fucked that bitch until HE wasn't wanted anymore.

Man, was SHE confused!

You don't fuck with me and the 6 million, baby,...

Unknown said...

"Blue@9 said...
Curious why it freaks people out that some random dude in India doesn't know who Hitler was. I'm guessing he probably got little to no education, and any history education was focused on India."

If he learned in school about millions of people dying in the 1940s it is more likely to be the Bengal Famine of 1943.

AllenS said...

May I suggest to Mr. Shah, that he change the name of his clothing store to Comanche's.

Indigo Red said...

BarryD has asked why are NAZIs and not other socialists condemned for killing innocents. Essentially, it is the industrialization of the killing that makes the difference. Nearly every facet of the German economy and society were turned to the production of death. After the killing, human debris was collected to be used by the Fatherland - eyeglasses, clothing and shoes were collected and redistributed, shorn human hair was used to make wigs and insulation, gold removed from the teeth of the condemned went to fund the NAZI regime. Railway time tables were fixed to accommodate the many transfer trains to work and death camps even to the detriment of troop movements; factories, mines, and farms contracted with the NAZI party for slave labor; teaching hospitals and research institutes asked for and were given living human beings of all ages to experiment upon and conduct vivisection. Not only did the NAZIs do all this and more, but they recorded their activities in the interests of science and the edification of mankind. It took several years and much re-education to allay the immorality of what was to be done, until NAZIs, Germans and others actually thought they were doing good.

A socialist like Che may have had higher goals in mind, but when it came to actual killing, it was just killing - no organization, no industrialization, no record keeping, no product.

On a much smaller scale, it's something like the difference between murder and pre-meditated murder. One happens because shit happens and the other is fully planned shit down to the last detail. It wasn't the number of deaths, it was the how and why of the killing, simple murder vs. factory planned assembly-line killing coupled with society's unease with the Industrial Revolution as mockingly illustrated by Charlie Chaplin's 1936 film "Modern Times" which he extended to the NAZIs four years later in "The Great Dictator" that described NAZIs and Germans as "machine men, with machine minds and machine hearts."

garage mahal said...

They were all socialists

Ever wonder why Nazis are considered fascists, and not socialists?

YoungHegelian said...

@Indigo,

I'm not sure how the organizational skills that you've outlined for give the Nazi's a leg up on evil that the Soviet Gulags lack.

The Gulag system was a huge bureaucracy that covered the whole Soviet Union with camps. It, too, commandeered rail lines, kept meticulous records, and provided massive amounts of labor to the Soviet regime.

Are we to give the Russkies a pass because they were too disorganized to strip the corpses for useful materials unlike those hyper-organized Germans? I just imagine Stalin yelling at his commissars "You think it's easy to be mass murderers? No, it's hard work! Just look at the Germans!"

Tim said...

"One happens because shit happens and the other is fully planned shit down to the last detail."

100 million deaths at the hands of Communists isn't just "because shit happens."

Nice try though.

You and Garage would hit it off famously, I'm sure.

YoungHegelian said...


And, Garage, you pathetic thing you!
Let me tell you an anecdote:

My thesis advisor was fluent in German, and was attended a conference on Marx in Germany that had both East & West Germans in it. Some West German Marxist gets up and says in a lecture that the modern communist states are not really Marxist, to which an East German scholar yelled out: "Do you think we're too stupid to know how to read Marx?"

So, garage, do you think the Warsaw Pact was too stupid to know how to read Marx, and only guys like the Frankfurt school could slog through it?

Do you realize just how intellectually bankrupt you sound?

Tim said...

"Are we to give the Russkies a pass because they were too disorganized to strip the corpses for useful materials unlike those hyper-organized Germans?"

I suppose, giving indigo the benefit of doubt, what offends him isn't the aggregate number of deaths, rather, it is the rate of deaths.

So, the somewhat less efficient Communists killed 100 million over 70 years, a rate of 1.4 million murders per year.

The somewhat more efficient National Socialists killed 20 million over 8 (1938-1945) years, a rate of 2.5 million murders per year.

The National Socialists had the advantage, so to speak, of being able to murder most of their victims during war; the Communist didn't have 70 years of wars for their murders, so to some degree, their organized murders were during, ostensibly, "peace time."

Both are utterly evil, of course, and so too are efforts to mitigate one as less evil than the other, unless one believes, "One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic, as did Stalin.

Seems an apt descriptor for the world view of the moral midgets.

BaltoHvar said...

1. This clown thinks he's cute - the synthesis of the Name and the Symbol are coincidence? After HOW MANY BURKAS fought and DIED for the Crown in the Western Theater? Sorry - I call B/S...

2. Right-wing - Left-wing - Chicken-wing. It is a distinction without a difference. Killing s one thing, murder is altogether ENTIRELY different.

3. “The dead only know one thing – it is better to be alive.” - Pvt. Joker

John said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John said...



"Ever wonder why Nazis are considered fascists, and not socialists?"

Not really, but I read quite a lot of political and military history so I don't have to wonder. I know that Mussolini and his Fascists (note the cap F) were socialists.

The German National Socialists were called "NAZIs" and "fascists" for the express purpose of avoiding calling them socialists.

Stalin did not want to admit that both sides were socialist and the US and Britain didn't want to upset Stalin to where he might kiss and make up with Hitler.

If you do not think the Germans were socialists, you show yourself as terribly ill-served however told you that.

Tell me, Garage,

Have you ever read any biographies of either Hitler or Mussolini?


John Henry

garage mahal said...

The German National Socialists were called "NAZIs" and "fascists" for the express purpose of avoiding calling them socialists.

LOL. Whatever you say Captain.

YoungHegelian said...

@Garage,

Stop! Stop Now!

The official name of the NAZI party (The National Socialist German Workers Party) was forbidden to be used in any periodical in the Warsaw Pact. The only terms that could be used were Fascist or the abbreviation NAZI.

The Soviets didn't want to remind anyone that there had been, once upon a time, another regime from the land that birthed Marx that laid claim to the mantle of socialism.

I've never used an ad hominem insult with you before, but you're being an idiot. The folks on this forum know of what they write.

rcocean said...

Why should anyone in India care about Hitler? He died 67 years ago and was a European.

rcocean said...

Why should anyone in India care about Hitler? He died 67 years ago and was a European.

Tim said...

"I've never used an ad hominem insult with you before, but you're being an idiot. The folks on this forum know of what they write."

He's just trolling.

His movement is losing, his candidates have lost or will lose, the game is over, and he knows it.

So he trolls.

No argument.

Just trolling.

It's all he has.

It suits him though.

He's got that going for him.

garage mahal said...

YoungHeg

Nazis used the term socialist in their name to get workers to vote for them. THEY OPENLY ADMITTED THIS.

Nazis, and fascists everywhere, always attack the left. Fascism can be described as "a radical authoritarian popular movement against the left". The state didn't run most enterprises in Nazi Germany, capitalists did.

I could go on and on, the argument nazis were socialists is one of the sillier arguments on the internet.

Penny said...

Whoa.

Jews need to missionary in India.

YoungHegelian said...

@Garage,

Nazis, and fascists everywhere, always attack the left

And Stalinists always murder Trotskyites, so what?

You really need to read a some recent ideological histories of Fascism & National Socialism.

Fascism can be described as "a radical authoritarian popular movement against the left"

Sure, it's called that by Marxists! But what did the Nazi's themselves call it? How did they and the Fascists see themselves?

They didn't see themselves as Marxist socialists, but there are many traditions of socialism in European thought. They saw themselves as combining the various "corporate interests" (a technical term under Fascist thought), e.g. the workers, the industrialists, the bourgeoisie, the peasantry, into a larger & greater organic whole, which was the Nation. They rejected marxism because they thought its emphasis on the proleteriat vs everyone else was too divisive & reductive.

The Nazis & Fascists didn't think they needed to expropriate the means of production. But, they damn sure bent that production to the will of the Nation & Party as they saw the need.

The idea that either the Nazis or the Fascists were in bed with the industrialists is Marxist-historian bullshit, and you won't find a modern historian of Fascism espouse it.

Darrell said...

Garage, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. The crap you're selling was part of the lies--the propaganda commissioned by FDR to get Americans onboard with support Stalin and the Soviet Union. Before that, the average American said "Great! Let the two sets of socialists kill each other until no one is left." The academics he asked wouldn't co-operate until Hitler attacked Stalin. Bit after, they came up with the bullshit that Hitler had taken over an existing socialist group to rise to power. That was not true. The both groups Hitler founded (the first was outlawed) were founded by him, based on his ideas. Ideas he had formulated from German and French philosopher from the 17th, 18th, and 19th century--some of the same that Marx and Engels drew upon. Hitler claimed that Marx and Engels distorted true socialism for their own ends. Hitler kept free markets because he believed that without free markets scare resources would be wasted and would soon disappear. And the price signals help generate replacements. He rejected class warfare--after saying he first supported it--based on his WWI experiences as an aide to officers that were members of the old noble families. He saw that those families always sent at least one of their sons to a live of national service. And not the least of their son--the best and brightest. He told of their cunning against overwhelming odds, their bravery, etc. To waste that national resource would be criminal, Hitler explained.

The Nazis put party members at every corporation to monitor compliance and report progress. None of that fits with capitalism. Corporations had to follow the plan they had been given. Non-compliant management was arrested and replaced.

The bullshit version that FDR crafted was incorporated into history books after the war. Maybe you did learn that. There was little to challenge it for years until all the independent histories began to appear. To believe the crap now if stupid--even if it does make your smears against right-wingers easier. Worse it makes you look stupid and, more importantly, look like an intentional liar.

Darrell said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Darrell said...

The Lefties in Europe used the smear of the "right-wing" label to achieve power in countries with a vote. They have little incentive to correct the false narrative. The academics here that pushed the narrative for years did not want to been seen as liars and pawns of authority. Thye always fell back on the old, "it's settled science" argument, essentially. Everybody has always said it. Now they look like those Gore idiots looking at a card cleared punched for Bush and refusing to ackowledge it. That chad moved over there! I swear!

garage mahal said...

In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote 'the suspicion was whispered in German Nationalist circles that we also were merely another variety of Marxism, perhaps even Marxists suitably disguised, or better still, Socialists... We used to roar with laughter at these silly faint-hearted bourgeoisie and their efforts to puzzle out our origin, our intentions and our aims. '

They thought Marxism was part of a Jewish conspiracy, and many prominent capitalists supported and funded the Nazis because they saw them as a defense against Bolshevism.

Darrell said...

Yes, typos in both. But you can figure it out. That's what happens when you type it fresh--and fast.

Darrell said...

"bourgeoisie" didn't make you suspicious? Or curious?

So you've proved the devil lies. Good job!

Now quote me his thoughts on religion. He had lots of contradictory and misleading words there, as well. I'll give you a clue as to how to suss the truth out of all of that. Think of what a real member of a given group would never say. Like "Christianity was the worse scourge ever to hit the world!" Things like that.

EMD said...

Any of you Madison people been to Garage Mahal's new clothing store, "Pol Pot"?

From my Twitter:

This story is really making me rethink my new line of Pol Pots cookware.

Darrell said...

Garage knows that the words "Marxism" and upper-case "Socialism" meant something very specific to Hitler. Those were the Marx/Engels and Bolshevik variants. Hitler believed he created/re-discovered true German socialism, untainted by "you-know-who." He didn't want his movement tainted by the failure of the others.

EMD said...

In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote 'the suspicion was whispered in German Nationalist circles that we also were merely another variety of Marxism, perhaps even Marxists suitably disguised, or better still, Socialists... We used to roar with laughter at these silly faint-hearted bourgeoisie and their efforts to puzzle out our origin, our intentions and our aims. '

They thought Marxism was part of a Jewish conspiracy, and many prominent capitalists supported and funded the Nazis because they saw them as a defense against Bolshevism.


You're right, Garage, they are not the same. You win.

However, both ideologies have wrought their share of misery. Granted, Stalin wasn't a true Marxist, he kind of invented his own brand of vicious corrupt communism. The pure Bolshevism of 1917 was gone by the time he took over.

However, it is impossible to adapt Marxism without the structures of a state and party apparatus, as Stalin quickly learned.


Ken said...

garage,

Ever wonder why Nazis are considered fascists, and not socialists?

No. You know why? Because NAZI stood for Nationalsozialismus, which translates to National SOCIALIST. You pinhead, they identified themselves as socialists and others acknowledged this as truth.

Additionally, there really isn't much difference between socialism and fascism: both organized society from the top down and denigrated the individual. Both developed cults of personality and hero worship beyond insanity. Both stole industries and turned people into slaves.

Ken said...

John,

The German National Socialists were not Marxist but then neither were the Russian International Socialists.

They were all socialists, though.


Have you ever read Das Kapital or The Communist Manifesto? The NAZIs and the Russian International Socialists were faithful followers of Marx.

Gary Rosen said...

John Henry, will you send me that dollar? Those dam joooooos are so sneaky, they didn't cooperate!

Gary Rosen said...

"By the time we the victors started writing the naratives, the noble German people and the Emperor's sweet little Japanese people were our new best friends while the hateful Russians had become our enemy."


Did you ever notice that after WWII Germany and Japan were transformed into peaceful democracies while Russia continued as a brutal totalitarian state? Just wondering.

DEEBEE said...

Reminded me of a long time ago, the "Journal of Irreproducible Results" had a research grant proposal. The research was to prove that in any large sub-group of humanity the ass-hole quotient is constant.