August 7, 2012

ABA resolution urging "breed-neutral dog laws."

At first glance it looks like the ABA House of Delegates is coming out against discriminating against dog breeds — as if it's something like racism that needs to be condemned. But:
According to the report accompanying the resolution, laws that target “pit bulls” are inconsistent with due process because it’s difficult to determine which dogs fit in the category. And even when laws are more specific in their definitions, it’s difficult to judge a dog from its appearance.
That is, the focus seems to be on the rights of the owners, that it's a due process problem to refer to a breed, when it's not clear what dogs are covered by that reference.

77 comments:

Michael K said...

Pit bulls are favored by Obama supporters to guard their weed plantations. Of course, they should be protected.

CJinPA said...

I think that in most cities where anit-pit bull laws are in place, it's not the dog being targeted as much as the owner.

That is, everyone, including the owner, knows the dog is there to be menacing or violent. And, yes, some innocents get caught up. If only the framers were enlightened enough to protect the right to bear dogs.

traditionalguy said...

Pit bulls are sweet dogs that never hurt anyone, say the dog breeders.

They can sell these dogs for $2,000. I doubt that price is because they are cuddly doggies.

They fail to mention you cannot buy homeowners insurance with one kept at home or that the little fellas like to kill small people for fun.

CJinPA said...

"Anti"-pit bull laws, that is.

ndspinelli said...

We all loathe insurance companies to varying degrees. However, they keep copious records on EVERYTHING they insure. Statistics bear out there are a few breed of dogs that cause the vast majority of bite claims. If attorneys have their way then insurance companies will be required to cover all dog breeds under homeowner policies. Then we will all pay for these dogs and the attorneys will laugh all the way to the bank.

bagoh20 said...

Obama is definitely no friend to the potheads. I don't understand why, but his justice department has been far tougher on them than Bush's was.

edutcher said...

I'd heard pit bulls were bred to fight.

I know Yorkies were bred for their courage, tenacity, and smarts.

By all means, discriminate.

rhhardin said...

It's a property rights case, not a dog rights case, as Vicki Hearne points out in _Bandit_, which is devoted to the legal and social media frenzy that started in the 80s.

The frenzy is money for charities and money for the MSM.

Pit Bulls were America's dog (can-do spirit) in WWI, analogous to the British bulldog.

ndspinelli said...

bagoh20, They're trying to help the Mexican economy which is hurt by legal cannabis in California particularly.

For those not familiar w/ civil litigation, if a bad breed dog bites someone and that dog owner doesn't have homeowners insurance then the tassled loafered, ambulance chasing, sanctimonious plaintiff's attorneys have no pool of money to go after. In almost every instance if there is not insurance coverage then these lazy scum sucking attorneys will tell you to go shit in your hat if your kid got mauled. There aren't any Atticus Finch out there.

Coketown said...

So the moral of the resolution is that discrimination is alright if our methods of discrimination are sufficiently sophisticated? They seem less concerned with the merits of breed discrimination laws and more concerned with enforcement. You know, just because a dog looks like a rottweiler doesn't mean we can be sure it is a rottweiler.

Oh. I cracked the code. At second glance is looks like the ABA House of Delegates is coming out against discriminating against dog breeds -- as if it's something like transphobia that needs to be condemned. I can relate. My 130 pound rottweiler trans-identifies as a Bichon Frisé. She can't live in breed-restricted apartment complexes because of the prejudices of bigoted property managers. We need breed-neutral bathrooms...er, I mean laws...immediately. The poor thing is terrified of butterflies for God's sake! How dangerous can she be?

(Funny story: I didn't know she wasn't fixed until her first heat, and googling "bitches in heat" will NOT get you information on how to cope with it, but it will make you see just how little progress feminism has made in the last 40 years.)

DKWalser said...

I married into a family that raises and shows dogs. My wife has long complained that laws outlawing the owning of a pit-bull are difficult to enforce because there's no clear definition of what a pit-bull is. It's not a recognized breed by the American Kennel Club. Even if it were, how would the law apply to a dog that's a cross from a pit-bull and a cocker spaniel?

It's not that you cannot predict from its breeding that a dog will be dangerous. You can. A dog's behavior tends to run true to breed. (How a dog is trained and treated will also play a role in how a dog behaves. But some dogs were bred for their aggressiveness and training can only do so much to bridle that natural tendency.) It's just impossible to address the fact that a particular "breed" of dog is more inherently dangerous than others by outlawing it when you cannot define the breed.

bagoh20 said...

I work daily with a dog rescue that specializes in Pit Bulls. I have 4 of them living with me. Our rescues probably has 20 Pits at any given time, and we have adopted out hundreds of them.

There is nothing you can say about Pit Bulls that is reliably true. That's the relation to racism. Like racism, the stereotypes have some basis in fact, but are so far off in the majority of cases that they really are more disinformation then informative.

Although we have always had dozens of Pits in our rescue and they have always been the main breed for us, the overwhelming majority of bites and fights occur with other breeds. We have Pits that live with small dogs, and many live with cats.

I'm not suggesting some are not very dangerous - they are powerful dogs with a genetic tenacity, but they are probably more diverse in disposition than any other breed. Saying a dog is a Pit Bull is just not saying much of anything reliably true. That's why I oppose breed specific laws. They just aren't based in fact.

I have Pits that are so tender that I could trust them with a hamster or an infant. And we meet others all the time that just need to be put down for everyone's safety.

And you don't get $2000 for Pit Bulls unless they got something really special. We can't give them away, and thousands are killed every year for simply having nobody to take them home.

tim maguire said...

It's a myth that Pit Bulls are unusually dangerous--in fact, statistically, they're one of the best family dogs you can get. Hyperventilating journalists and opportunistic politicians notwithstanding.

ndspinelli said...

DKWalser, There is difficulty identifying breeds. Most pit bulls are a mix. In dog bite cases involving pit bull mixes it is sometimes left up to the jury. I have actually done dog surveillance getting video and still photos of an offending dog for a jury. I called myself Ace Ventura on that one. The most important jury question in cases like that is regarding coverage. As stated previuosly, no coverage almost certainly no damages recovered.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT DISCRIMINATION, dear people. This is about MONEY!

rhhardin said...

The way you make a dog dangerous is to make the dog crazy.

You make a dog crazy by never making sense round it, aka constant teasing so that nothing in fact makes sense.

You can do it with any breed. Young males do it with strong dogs because it makes them look good.

ndspinelli said...

bagoh, Congrats on your selfless work. But, you're just wrong about serious bites and maulings. The stats nationwide simply don't lie. You are correct that there are other breeds that are biters. Dog groomers hate cocker spaniels because they are biters. But pit bulls and Rotweilers exact a much higher toll on their victims. Certainly you can see that.

bagoh20 said...

Here's a photo of my current pack of dangerous killers: 4 Pits and a German Shepard.

Also there is a photo of my 80 year old mother wrestling with some vicious Pits. She was starting to call too often, and something had to be done about it.

The Pack

bagoh20 said...

ndspinelli,

They are strong dogs, and they tend to be hard to stop once they start. We treat them a little different because of that until we know their disposition, but the fears and the law are mostly still based on a stereotype and not reliably true. Once you know you have a good Pit Bull, they are just as reliable as any other dog. And a strange dog of nay breed is dangerous until you know better. Chihuahuas are more more vicious and untrustworthy, but I agree I would rather be attacked by a 4 pound dog than a 60 pound one.

To me it seems identical to racial stereotypes of Blacks, or even of whites. The numbers don't lie, but it is incredibly unfair to treat all Blacks like they are potential muggers or whites like they are serial killers, just because the numbers say they are more likely than other "breeds" to do these things. Buckets of water and steps kill more kids than Pit Bulls, but it is still very rare. We shouldn't make laws that affect so many so often to protect us from very unlikely events.

rasqual said...

Fine, change the fishing laws so I can catch as many trout as I'm allowed to catch carp. :-)

bagoh20 said...

Rascual,

If you could have as many trout as you want, you would probably find the carp very sexy. Just imagine the carp are trout or even lobsters, and be happy with your great catch. MMMMMM carp!

Methadras said...

ndspinelli said...

bagoh, Congrats on your selfless work. But, you're just wrong about serious bites and maulings. The stats nationwide simply don't lie. You are correct that there are other breeds that are biters. Dog groomers hate cocker spaniels because they are biters. But pit bulls and Rotweilers exact a much higher toll on their victims. Certainly you can see that.


That's just simple physics. A smaller dog tends to have smaller bites while a larger dog has a larger and more powerful bite. Pit Bulls and Rotts have much larger jaws and larger jaw muscles.

ndspinelli said...

bagoh, Interesting thought about stereotyping that I partially agree w/ you. But, that's EXACTLY what the ABA is "selling the sizzle, not the steak." They care about churning lawsuits and will tap into our sense of fairness and love of dogs.

We spend winters in San Diego which for reasons I don't know, is the mecca of pit bulls. I'm not afraid of them but I am cautious. What scares me is when I see an infant crawling near a pit bull. As you probably know, that can activate their dark side.

ndspinelli said...

bagoh, Thanks for the photos, I see the dudes are working on their tans.

damikesc said...

If only they had such stringent views on "assault weapon bans".

The guns covered by those tend to be really, really nebulous as well.

The Sommeliere said...

edutcher said...
"I'd heard pit bulls were bred to fight.I know Yorkies were bred for their courage, tenacity, and smarts.
By all means, discriminate."

Unfortunately, I agree. When was the last time you heard that "an attack Labradoodle" bit someone?

CJinPA said...

Again, it's not the dogs they're targeting with these laws, it's the owners.

If collies became the thug's breed of choice, they'd move to ban them.

It usually doesn't happen because a councilman in San Clemente sees a story about a pit bull attack in NYC and gets scared. It's usually in communites that have experienced several pit bull attacks. And no collie attacks.

Carol said...

Note to self: Yet another reason to carry.

Quaestor said...

Dog groomers hate cocker spaniels because they are biters. But pit bulls and Rotweilers exact a much higher toll on their victims.

I read somewhere that Cockers are by far the most prone to bite, but their bites tend to be superficial. Pit bites, on the other hand, while less common are much more likely to cause severe, even crippling wounds. This was many years ago when Cockers were popular, today the title of nuisance nipper must go to the Chihauhau.

It's often said that breeds have distinctive temperaments. Personally, I'm not so sure. A long-running selective breeding experiment in Russia involving the silver fox (V. vulpes, a species not known for being easily tamed) has shown that aggression can be greatly diminished or enhanced by selecting for that trait. In dogs, however the most important breeding criterion is usually appearance, not behavior* -- is the dog the right size? or the right color?, etc. Consistent temperament is mostly accidental.

The most important thing about dogs and their temperaments is not breeding, but their innate desire to please. An idiot who wants an aggressive dog will have an aggressive dog. For example, choose an urban homeboy gangsta type with a vicious Pit Bull on a leash and confiscate his dog. Then substitute an easy going "labra-doddle", and within a few months the gangsta's new dog will be more aggressive than you'd ever suspect.

*Not always, of course. Border Collies are bred for their train-ability. Their consistent looks are accidental. Consequently their intelligence and desire to please is very high.

bagoh20 said...

I'm around this stuff all the time. I'm always at shelters and kennels and spend most days in South Central L.A., often chasing dogs through neighborhoods that are ground zero for gangs and Pit Bulls and the bad combination of both. Around here Pits are the most common dog by far, and although there are certainly Pits that bite people, it's more often some other breed. Some of the most vicious attacks I've seen, where people are seriously maimed are Collies, or German Shepards, Labradors or some mix. Most biting and attacks are by small dogs like Chihuahuas, Shih Tzus, or Pomerains, but the damage is naturally done by the big dogs.

Here in L.A. if you see a dog loose or running stray, it is almost always either a Chihuahua or a Pit Bull - mostly Pit Bulls, and I have never seen a single one chase a person. We always have to chase them down, often for days.

When I first started this "hobby", I was pretty fearful of Pits, and it took a long time to get over it, because I have been exposed to the same media as everyone else. Now, a big Labrador or Shepard running loose scares me more - just from experience.
My exposure has just shown me too many sweet and tender Pits to be more scared of them than other dogs.

I think the statistics against Pits should be considered with a lot of skepticism for a number of reasons. For example, if a dog attacks someone and that dog has any Pit look to him whatsoever, he will be reported as a Pit Bull or Pit mix. Even if it is mostly a Labrador or Boxer. We see dogs all the time who have gotten in trouble like this and identified as Pit Bulls, but when we get there, they are clearly not Pit Bulls. Reporters, victims, police and others have a tendency or even personal interest in calling an attacking dog a Pit Bull. It sells stories, it sucks checks out of insurance companies, and it makes your experience either more interesting or sympathetic. Nobody wants to say they were traumatized by Lassie.

I'm not saying the story of the numbers is entirely wrong, just that it's very suspect to me, and the magnitude of the Pit problem is likely overstated.

bagoh20 said...

Another thing is that running from a dog is a mistake. Even a normally friendly dog can be made to attack by running from him. Just run away from your own pet dog and see what happens. Imagine if you never saw him before and he did that.

The additional problem that this causes for Pits is that when people see one they usually act scared, and often run, when if they just acted normal the dog would never approach them. People don't act scared and run when they see a Golden Retriever, so that encounter is likely to turn out better.

netmarcos said...

The most beautiful and terrifying dog I ever knew was the product of my sister's black chow-chow and the brindled bull mastif from down the block.

My neighbor's dobermans are like yorkshire terriers compared to that beast.

I Callahan said...

But, you're just wrong about serious bites and maulings. The stats nationwide simply don't lie. You are correct that there are other breeds that are biters. Dog groomers hate cocker spaniels because they are biters. But pit bulls and Rotweilers exact a much higher toll on their victims. Certainly you can see that.

Ironic, that someone that doesn't own one, and can't even cite a link to his nonsense has the balls to lecture someone who deals with the breed on a daily basis.

Put up a link that backs it up, or shut up.

rhhardin said...

I was attacked by six pit bulls just the other week.

I stopped my bike and bought them all off with Milk Bones.

I haven't seen them since, but dogs that regularly turn up chasing bikes are easily trained to run out to the end of their driveway and sit, to wait for me to stop.

My only actually recorded encounter, with obviously not a Pit Bull.

bagoh20 said...

bad link Rh.

BarryD said...

"I'd heard pit bulls were bred to fight."

Dogs, not humans. They were bred NOT to attack humans, who would be in the pit when the dogs were fighting.

Now that dog fighting is illegal, this breeding has changed a bit, but the original, real APBT bloodline was developed to weed out human aggression.

Many of Michael Vick's dogs ended up being adopted by families with little kids, where everyone has lived happily together.

http://badrapor.www65.a2hosting.com/vick-dogs

PatCA said...

I think the ABA has too much time on its hands.

Yes, carol, more reason to carry.

Add dogs to the mentally ill, drug addicted, and vagrants on the streets that we are supposed to tolerate, it's either stay indoors or...carry.

BarryD said...

"You can. A dog's behavior tends to run true to breed."

...something that dog show people are doing their damnedest to change.

Dog shows and bad judging ruin working dog breeds. I've seen it. In the gundog world, we avoid show-bred dogs like the plague.

Tarzan said...

I just wish it were openly legal to taze people (and pets) who charge my 6 year old boys at public parks.

"No, he's really nice and loves kids!"

"He just wants to play!"

I don't f**king care. Keep that thing on a leash before I run it through a woodchipper.

frak said...

Temperament is a breed standard for some dogs. At a judges seminar for one spaniel breed, the presenter said, "imagine that you are heading out to the field with a passel of these spaniels in the back of your truck," and you don't want fussing & fighting back there. So the judge looks for a merry temperament, wagging tail, and, of course, no snarling at the other dogs.

Tarzan said...

I'd like to sneak up on some of those dog owners when they're relaxing and place a giant bird eating spider on their lap.

"It's okay! He loves people. He just wants to play. He won't bite so long as you don't move."

BarryD said...

"I just wish it were openly legal to taze people (and pets) who charge my 6 year old boys at public parks."

And I wish it were openly legal to taze people who have an irrational fear of dogs, and seething hatred to boot, and then go to an off-leash park with their kids and bitch about it.

Most parks that aren't DOG PARKS require leashes or don't allow dogs at all. Go there.

Quaestor said...

frak wrote:
Temperament is a breed standard for some dogs.

True, but that doesn't mean that a judge can accurately gauge a dog's temperament in the few minutes a dog is in the show ring. For the judge temperament means what is the dog like now, not generally. Judges tend to be confident and dominant (The show rules make them so, and they know it. The dogs pick up on the dominance and usually submit.) The occasional neurotically fearful dog will growl or snap at a judge or other contestant, get dismissed and disappear from the A-list bloodstock -- which is all to the good, but that's not enough by itself to really influence the temperament of a breed.

The big influence is popularity. Once a breed becomes popular it's doomed.

rhhardin said...

Another try at dog encounter link above
link

Nichevo said...

I dunno...my friend's dog Maxx is a rescue. She's soft on him and he sometimes exceeds boundaries, but is overflowing with love and affection.

The limited genetic testing she could get in, oh, October '08, after they pulled him out of the dumpster - a puppy, hogtied, thrown in a dumpster - and she adopted him and treated his mange and all that, and had him tested - said that he is part American Staffordshire Terrier and part Chow.

I don't know if that is the same as pit bull, but he is just the best. Dog. Ever. His devotion is needless to specify; suffice it to say that it is returned. I'm no doctor, but I would jump in the water after that dog.

Pity we can't just outlaw thugs.

Tarzan said...

And I wish it were openly legal to taze people who have an irrational fear of dogs, and seething hatred to boot, and then go to an off-leash park with their kids and bitch about it.

Who said anything about off-leash parks? It'll be a cold day in hell when I willingly spend any time at all in a 'dog park'. What I describe happens all the time at any park I go to that is not closely supervised. Any woodsy place with trails and there are the dog-people, telling me how nice their dogs are while my kids are terrorized.

To HELL with dogs and the people who obsess over them.

Carnifex said...

It's not the dog it's the owner, period. Pitbull bites recieve a lot of coverage because of how strong their bite is and other things bred into them, but we had a pitbull and it was the sweetest dog in the world. Built like a boulder, but never bit at anyone or anything. Our chow/lab will hamstring another dog in a fight. I've seen her try to do it many times. Luckily, I am the big dog, and 1 blow will stop the fight.(unlike a cat. did you know you can't knock a cat out?) j/k ;-)

Icepick said...

A couple of cases from Florida in the last couple of years.

In one case an old man is out working in his yard. The neighbors pit bulls jump the fence, tear off one of the man's arms, almost tear off the other one, and eat his face. The poor man lives for a few days before finally dying. Sweet, family dogs, no doubt.

Another case, more recent, featured a woman in at a vet's office got an arm amputated after a pit bull shredded it. The pit bull had been with them for a couple of weeks as a boarder. Another sweet family dog.

When was the last time a cocker spaniel chewed someone's arm off?

I live in a neighborhood where until about three years ago people used to openly advertize that they bred dogs for fighting, and they'd even openly advertize that they were having dog fights. The police couldn't figure any of this out, of course. Oddly enough, the advertizing for these fights and dog "kennels" never advertized cocker spaniels. Just pit bulls.

(This doesn't happen anymore because the neighborhood has actually gotten better. The bad economy is forcing formerly middle class people to move into shitty neighborhoods, frequently forcing out the worst of the people living there currently. God knows where they're going. There are still a lot of pit bulls here, and I still see people breeding them. They just don't openly advertize.)

But where I'm at, four kinds of people own pit bulls: dog fighters, drug dealers, people that want to front like drug dealers, and dumb asses. There's a lot of overlap.

bagoh20 said...

" "imagine that you are heading out to the field with a passel of these spaniels in the back of your truck,""

I take my dogs to adoption events every weekend. I have a pickup truck with a camper shell. I put them all in the back together often 4 or more dogs in the back of my truck together almost always multiple Pit Bulls (the bred-to-fight dogs). I never once had a fight in 4 years of this. I have had Pits get into a fight other places, and breaking them up is the only time I've ever been bitten by one, but even that was just a scratch.

As to people who hate having dogs approach them or their children, I completely understand that. No matter what you say, your dog does not know my child and vise versa, so that would bother me too. People who are around dogs a lot just forget how scary they are to people who are not so exposed.

They are both right, because dogs are wonderful and friendly and sweet except when they are not, and you never know for sure how a dog and kid will react together unless they already know each other. I wish both would be more careful.

We have people who come to dog adoption events and let their kids just wander about sticking their fingers into cages with dogs. If the dog reacts normally and bites that hand, it can cost the dog his life. So please be respectful of the danger of kids and dogs that don't know each other. You wouldn't just walk up to a strange person and touch them, would you. If you did, would you be surprised if they punched you?

Carnifex said...

As an opposing view point while coming from a visit with my grandmother as a child, we had just steeped out the door when her neighbor let het pitbull loose. It charged us barking furiously. Dad flicked out his knife and told the owner to either control their dog or he would.

Tarzan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Icepick said...

My next door neighbors have three or four pit bulls. (It is hard to tell because they are constantly rotating them in and out, and some days they deny owning a particular dog, and other days they claim it is theirs, etc.)

The dogs have killed several neighborhood cats that I know of (the neighbors little boys like to talk about it) and have tried to kill several others. I find them in my fenced back yard trying to kill various small animals from time to time. The neighbors always profess that the dogs must have just learned how to climb fences, even though this has been going on for months.

The dogs have charged me several times. Luckily I am not scared of dogs and I walked right at them. The time there were three of them, though, I knew I was in deep shit. Fortunately they backed down.

They're all sweet family dogs, though, who wouldn't hurt a fly. That's how I know they're going to kill someone soon. I just hope its the bastard that owns them or his children, and not me, my wife or my daughter.

bagoh20 said...

You wanna bet who can find the most horror stories? You look for dog culprits, and I'll look for people.

Hell, I can find as number of single human beings who have killed more than all the dogs have combined over all of history. Them smart, civilized humans. Why can't dogs be more like us? Why do they have to overreact and get violent just because they mis-interpret a situation? Why do they have to panic and attack when they feel threatened? I don't know. Why do we?

Tarzan said...

You wouldn't just walk up to a strange person and touch them, would you. If you did, would you be surprised if they punched you?

But dogs are allowed and even encouraged to do exactly this with impunity, and anyone not willing to play along is viewed by the owners as weird or a 'hater' or whatever.

I teach my kids as best I can not to run, and they do NOT approach dogs of their own volition. A snarling mongrel hurling itself repeatedly against a fence, surprising us all when they were infants in a stroller has seen to that.

Beyond that, what the F*CK can I do? There we are, out in the open at a non 'dog park' skipping rocks on a small pond. Some eco hippy comes out of the woods surrounding by yapping hounds at least one of which comes bounding over and barking at my kids, BOTH of whom are doing their best not to run.

But what if they do run? "Well, gee, you should know more about dogs". Sorry, but that doesn't give me much to work with. "They love to play!" We're not in the mood to play, be jumped on, licked, barked at or anything else. Hence the anger and visions of wood chippers. It is not fun to be stuck in a situation like that and see the dog owner smirking like nothing's wrong.

I have very little patience for errant dogs and would not be upset in the least to see them made into boots and leather purses. They are no different or better than any other animal.

That said, I'm a big fan of Pugs, so go figure.

bagoh20 said...

Icepick, call Animal Control. If the dogs are a danger, it will get fixed. The dogs will be taken and euthanized if necessary. They have no rights, there will be no trial, and it will be done. I wouldn't accept having dangerous dogs like that next door. If it's as you say, then it will continue and likely something bad will happen eventually if the dogs are allowed to get loose.

Just be sure of your facts, because these dogs will likely die, but that's best if they are dangerous and not under control.

Michael K said...

Breeding has a lot to do with temperament. A friend was breeder of doberman pinschers. He told me that dobermans got to be unsalable due to the reputation. The breeders began to breed for temperament and soon, dobies w

Personally, I prefer golden retrievers and basset hounds.

Tarzan said...

You look for dog culprits, and I'll look for people.

The culprits are always people. To own a dog is to be (in my view at least and hopefully that of the law) DIRECTLY responsible for whatever that dog does.

It doesn't matter why a dog 'mis-interprets' a situation. It's the owners that need to be controlled and/or strongly influenced with the power of law.

Icepick said...

Icepick, call Animal Control. If the dogs are a danger, it will get fixed.

Bullshit. A fifteen year-old girl got shot in the head just around the corner last week. She and her family were driving home after church when a couple of cars involved in a speeding shoot-out drove by and the girl got clipped. The police are shrugging their shoulders and don't have much motivation to find out who did the shooting.

You think animal control wants to come out here and do anything? When there's a good chance the owners of the dogs are some crazy fucking Haitian drug dealers that will eat their faces if you mess with their dogs? (In this case it is a crazy Puerto Rican, but they don't know that and understandably won't believe me if I tell them.) No way.

(Mind you, this is much improved over three to four years ago. We literally had snipers popping caps in people back then. The police still don't give a damn unless they absolutely are forced into doing something, but even at that they just didn't give enough of a fuck to go the extra 1/16 of an inch. There's a reason poor people don't like the police - it's because the police don't fucking do anything for them. You know, like their jobs.)

Icepick said...

I'm sure of what the little boys have told me about their dogs killing cats. Some of those stories have coincided with cats disappearing. (I pay attention to the cats and dogs that live around me.) Good luck using that as evidence.

I'm sure the dogs have tried to kill several other neighborhood cats, because I've seen it happen and I've rescued the cats. How do I prove the dogs had intent to kill? I know it, I saw it, I was there, but will Animal Control buy that?

I've seen the dogs climbing fences. Again, how do I prove it - I'm usually going through the door to keep those damned dogs from killing something, so I don't have time to grab a camera and take pictures.

The dogs have charged me several times. I know this. How do I prove it? The neighbor will claim it was some other stray pit bull running around the neighborhood and that I'm confused or something. Who is Animal Control going to believe? Are they even going to bother coming out here and doing anything?

They're not going to do shit until someone gets mauled, or worse. I'm just hoping the right person gets mauled, and not me or mine, not the mail man, not the children walking home from school, etc.

And when it happens, the story will be full of my neighbor saying "They're sweet family dogs, they play with my babies all the time."

bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

Icepick,
I don't why you would not be able to fix this. As I said, I work in Compton, one of the most violent, dangerous, gang-ridden places in the country, and with a totally corrupt police force, but if I call the cops or animal control about dangerous dogs, those dogs are in a world of bad luck, and so are the owners. The authorities just have no patience for that here in L.A. Dogs are being killed by the thousands every year. Of course, Florida is a special place, so I don't know, but it sounds like dogs are the least of the problems there. For one thing, dogs have no rights to impede you or the cops from stopping them. They are just dangerous property. They will be killed.

ndspinelli said...

bagoh, I was accused by someone I've never seen here as lecturing you. Did you perceive my comments that way? I hope not. I thought I conveyed you know much more about pit bulls and I appreciate your work. And, I realize that because of my profession, I too often only see the dark side of dogs, people, etc. There is a surfer dude who lives a few doors down from us in San Diego that has a Blue Nose pit bull. He's had it since a pup and is a good dog. As I think about this, there does seem to be a hysteria about pit bulls. It's sort of like sharks. If there's a shark attack ANYWHERE in the world it's news immediately. But, sharks are the most dangerous animal in the sea, and they don't take a little nip.

There are more dog bite lawsuits than most people would ever imagine. Indeed, most of the cases I've worked probably didn't involve pit bulls or rotweilers. But, the death and serious maiming ones all have been "dangerous breeds." As long as everyone realizes this is not an altruistic move by the ABA but a stone cold greed move, I'll be satisfied. And you know the souless insurance companies will pass on the cost of insuring these breed to ALL OF US.

Finally, the person who told me to "shut up" can go shit in his hat.

bagoh20 said...

Tarzan,
I hear you, and I've been both in your shoes and also the hippy coming out of the woods with a pack of dogs. I don't have a solution that will make everybody happy. As a species we have decided to domesticate another predator, and overall, I think that was a very positive development, but it comes with problems. People drive their cars down your street, and mostly it's not dangerous, but it certainly can be. We live together, and we don't all think exactly the same, and so we can't control everything.

I wish that some people would be more careful with their dogs, and I wish others would learn to be more comfortable with dogs, because it is both things that cause the problems, and dogs and people are gonna be sharing the same space, as they have forever.

The thing to remember is that it's not nearly as dangerous as a parent naturally feels it is in that situation. A person who has their dog off-leash likely knows that the dog is pretty safe, or he wouldn't let it loose. Of course, you can't count on that, but just don't panic about it. Your kids will be most safe if they both respect, but don't irrationally fear dogs. You won't always be around, so teaching them this is valuable. The worst training would be for them to react with fear.

I know, you feel that you shouldn't have to deal with it, but you just do, we can't change that, so make it as good as you can. A kid that respects, but enjoys dogs, will be a safer and happier kid. There will always be assholes, and some will have dogs. We have done pretty well together. I have had dogs almost my entire life, and, although I have been bitten a couple times, I was never really hurt or even needed a stitch. I never even knew anyone who was hurt until I got into handling stray dogs every day. It's still very rare.

I wish I had a better answer, but I think people have to think about the list of relative dangers of life, and being hurt by a dog is not even on the first page, even for people like me.

bagoh20 said...

" Did you perceive my comments that way?"

Absolutely not. I got it the way you meant it.

I don't consider myself a dog expert or anything, but I have a lot of experience, and I work with people who have much more, including some of the top trainers in the country, and since I'm off work today, I figured I'd offer what I know about one of the few subject where I might have something to offer.

On all other subjects, I'm sure people have noticed I'm just talking out my ass... and I have yet to banished. HAHA!

Now, I have to go wash my pack of killers. Mom is coming to visit from Florida.

ndspinelli said...

bagoh, When you say "pit bulls sucks money out of insurance companies" you're wrong. No insurance company I'm aware of will cover a pit bull. And, being souless bastards insurance companies will try and designate a dog a pit bull mix to get out of lawsuits. The ABA wants to require coverage in homeowner policies for ALL breeds using "discrimination" as a cover. Just as long as everyone understands we will ALL pay for this. I personally don't want to.

bagoh20 said...

ndpinelli,

So if as you say, the insurance companies try to designate any dog attack as from a Pit Bull, then that also helps to skew the statistics.

You are certainly right, that most insurance companies will not insure a number of breeds, including Pits. That's one of the main reasons we have a hard time adopting them out now. It used to be much easier a few years ago. I think there are only two insurance companies here that still do it.

Still the owner is liable isn't he? So it's actually in both the insurance company's and the victim's interest to call it Pit Bull if they can. That has got to effect the stats.

Tarzan said...

Well said, Bago. I've reached similar conclusions myself and am more than willing to assume all the responsibility I can. I just have to bloviate once and awhile. It's tiresome getting dirty or baffled looks from people who can't fathom that someone might not love their dogs like they do. I will never have much patience at all for the owners who deify animals while cursing and seeing only the worst in their fellow man.

I say this as a vegetarian of six years, for personal reasons. I abhor real violence againt anyone or anything, and will be the first to praise the dog owner who's pet is a real reflection of their own virtue and inner harmony.

Too often, though, they reflect the weakness instead. It is what it is. godspeed to you as it sounds like you're doing some great work out there!

traditionalguy said...

Buy a lab, a golden retriever, a German shepherd or a meek cocker spaniel. That's enough peaceful dog choices.

When an aggressive dog attacks you his teeth puncture your limb and than he uses his jaw tenacity to clamp down and pull back out a chunk of your flesh.

The good news is that the place he bites goes numb since the nerves are gone.

The best way to experience this is to use pliers and violently pinch off a 2 inch chunk of your body. Scars will be automatic.

After that happens from a dog that the owner has assured you is harmless and only barks at strangers, then you get ready and kick any running at you dog's head just like a soccer ball before it launches itself. Run at it if ne

bagoh20 said...

Many of us who rescue dogs actually wish Pit Bulls as a breed would disappear. We love them, and people who know them, know they are incredibly loyal, affection, and great overall dogs.

Unfortunately, they have a very unhelpful reputation, that makes them attractive to the wrong people, and scary to everyone else. Despite the fact that much of it is untrue, it still sticks and probably always will. The result is that, today most Pit Bull puppies will not live a long or happy life. They will likely be mistreated, injured, abandoned, and killed.

This actually happens often because they don't live up to their reputation, and sometimes because they do, but most often just because the reputation is.

It's heartbreaking to see a Pit Bull puppy. Their future is usually not bright, but that's only because of us, one way or another. We invented them, we breed them, we kill them by the thousands. Isn't it backwards that they love us, and we fear them?

ndspinelli said...

bagoh, There certainly is liability on the part of the owner whether insured or not. But the reality in personal injury litigation is if there is no insurance then a plaintiff's attorney will not take the case. Collecting from a person individually is difficult and takes forever. The rare exception being if the person is a high paid athlete, movie star, etc. w/ many assets. Absent insurance or the aforementioned millionaire owner, the case will never get taken by a plaintiff's attorney. They want the insurance check right after the case settles or is won @ trial.

You make a good point about the skewed stats. Insurance companies are the biggest culprit in having dogs designated pit bulls. bagoh, this ABA decision shows the greed of both sides[plaintiff attorneys and insurance companies]. But, the loser will be all of us if insurance is manadated under discrimination grounds.

Carnifex said...

Easiest way to stop a dog from biting you is to give him more than he can chew. In my rough and tumble youth I've been attacked by several breeds of dogs, mostly bigger breeds. When they came at me, I just shoved my hand down their throat as far as it would go, and then grabbed whatever came to hand. No animal will consider resuming an attack after you grab its esophagus from the inside. As a disclaimer, I haven't tried this with bears or lions, just dogs.

Freeman Hunt said...

I have experienced the same as Tarzan. One brazen woman allowed her dog to run up and take the food my two year old was eating out of his hand. The owner found this so funny. Obnoxious.

I particularly hate it when strangers call my children over to meet their dog.

And no, I do not go to off leash parks.

Ann Althouse said...

Don't put extra spaces in comments. Deletion will follow, including for responses to the comment.

Nichevo said...

I see, you crotchety old space-counting woman, and will try to remember that in future. Very well, I second Carnifex on shoving hand down dog's throat; and in extremis, to get a dog to let go of his bite, insert two fingers in his tushy.

Nichevo said...

I suppose a stick or whatever would also work, of course.

Carnifex said...

I'll save the tushy treatment for later thanks anyway. Never had any trouble getting a dog to turn lose. A good thump on their side usually does it. I am a little larger than average though. In my younger days people thought I was a pro-wrerstler.

Nichevo said...

I must admit I read the tushy treatment somewhere, but I have tickled some tonsils myself. No harm seemed to come of it though he was somewhat shaken.

ken in sc said...

Icepick, Florida is a gun friendly state. The next time one of those dogs is in your fenced yard, just shoot, shovel, and shut up.