June 20, 2012

"If we accept the Liverpool Care Pathway we accept that euthanasia is part of the standard way of dying..."

"... as it is now associated with 29 per cent of NHS deaths."

46 comments:

Chip S. said...

NHS to cost curve: Get bent.

Matthew Sablan said...

Even if NICE or NHS or whoever rejects the finding, they should actually study and prove it one way or the other. Nearly 30% does sound
suspiciously high, especially if no one else is complaining.

Aridog said...

Why would this surprise anyone. It is to be expected. Whether anyone accepts it or not, it is the future, now.

Various surgical eligibility and treatment "boards" are already in place in the USA now, but at the moment still focus on outcome potentials for various treatments.

It is a very s-h-o-r-t step to re-focus them on economic and financial considerations.

Jay said...

What the hell are you complaining about Ann?

These people have universal coverage!

Ken said...

This is a cause for cheer for the left and its culture of death:

Abortion and euthanasia brought to you by lefties united!!

traditionalguy said...

Many may be in comas or effectively brain dead which is what this "Path" is designed for.

But to trust a government which habitually lies about what they are doing not to also shove the rest of the old folks with illnesses onto that path is cooperating with a Death for profits assasins team.

Poat-Christian culture is becoming a more dangerous place to live in everyday.

ricpic said...

"We need to cull the surplus population."

--Prince Phillip

Toby said...

Wow. So these decisions are left to stressed out nurses and second-string doctors who are making it up as they go along. Death panels look pretty darn good, in comparison.

edutcher said...

Dr Berwick approves.

So would Reichsfuhrer-SS Himmler.

Jawohl, all those people at Auschwitz were, uh..., euthanized.

Yeah, dat's da ticket.

dmoelling said...

The comments in the UK article are interesting. One reader from US noted that this is used in US Hospices and that time spent in hospice has dropped precipitously. They state the Liverpool protocol would kill a healthy person in 33 hours.

Methadras said...

Death panels in Urkelcare? Nah. I mean afterall, Urkel wanted to emulate the european system. right? right?

Methadras said...

NHS is fulfilling the leftard dream without firing a shot. To kill as many people as it can, but on their own terms and sometimes not when they have no one to defend them. Leftards worship death. They love it to death. Literally. Anything to promote their ideology is worth it. Anything.

bagoh20 said...

"the Liverpool protocol would kill a healthy person in 33 hours. "

I'm no expert, but that's a bad thing, right?

I'm never sure anymore with the mental gymnastics we've been seeing lately. Even if true, there is an illogical, but really smart reason why this is a good thing.

MadisonMan said...

the Liverpool protocol would kill a healthy person in 33 hours.

First, do no harm?

Hospice care patients I have known have lasted days. This makes me think the Liverpool Protocols are actively killing you, unless you are so far gone when you start the LPs.

sykes.1 said...

It's been obvious for some time that Prince Phillip is part of the surplus population and ripe for culling.

In fact, all the Royals are.

CWJ said...

I predicted this twenty years ago in a conversation with a scoffing coworker. We are no longer friends, but I'm tempted to look him up and see what he thinks today.

My other prediction (made back in the '70s) was that we baby boomers would receive our SS benefits but that the feds would inflate the currency so that it would be monopoly money. Oh we'd receive COLAs but they would be well behind the true inflation rate.

Both predictions seem to be right on track. I hate being right.

Robert Cook said...

"I mean afterall, Urkel wanted to emulate the european system. right? right?"

Wrong. Obama got the system he wanted, which bears no resemblance to the NHS model or any other form of government-funded health care.

Michael K said...

"One reader from US noted that this is used in US Hospices and that time spent in hospice has dropped precipitously."

When hospices first were approved by Medicare for payment, they soon got into trouble because patients in hospice care were found to live longer than the Medicare "anticipated" 6 months. The vast majority of hospice care is at home and the pressures that are working on the NHS don't exist.

"post-Christian" seems to cover it nicely.

Scott M said...

Wrong. Obama got the system he wanted, which bears no resemblance to the NHS model or any other form of government-funded health care.

Wrong. Obama's stated goal is single-payer, but he admitted we can't get there in one step. ACA is an inconvenient bridge to what he wants.

bagoh20 said...

Realistically, there will come a time very soon when most people will need to be "euthanized".

Those not dying outright from trauma will be either kept alive for very long periods with no quality of life, or let go by the most humane, but deliberate action. This is an inevitability of medical progress. We need to face it one way or another. I know what I want.

edutcher said...

Actually, what Zero got was what Pelosi Galore and Dingy Harry and their aggregated evil minions wanted.

Dr Berwick wanted NHS.

Apparently, it's too close for comfort.

Robert Cook said...

"Wrong. Obama's stated goal is single-payer, but he admitted we can't get there in one step. ACA is an inconvenient bridge to what he wants."

Nope.

He may have said such things in his younger days or on the campaign trail, but it wouldn't be the only things he lied about while campaigning, or his only change of heart.

During the long series of talks he had about how to reform health care, in which he promised to invite all viewpoints and proponents of all possible solutions, he refused to invite proponents of single payer to the talks and he would not allow the topic to be broached. He certainly will never revisit the subject, so the "this is a first step" strategy you purport is fiction.

Scott M said...

so the "this is a first step" strategy you purport is fiction.

Your first sentence mentions his capacity to lie and flip-flop. Your second sentence relies on the same liar and flip-flopper to make your point true.

Synova said...

"...he refused to invite proponents of single payer to the talks and he would not allow the topic to be broached."

Knowing that it was a political non-starter and if the "talks" started down a single-payer pathway in any sense he'd be toast, does NOT mean that this is not what he actually would like to eventually see.

Synova said...

I thought the article was obviously appalling...

Put an old sick guy on a bunch of morphine and leave him be. Of course he's not responsive!

And then say it's all okay because, if the patient improves, we take them off the Liverpool plan and try to make him better.

Gawd.

X said...

"this is a first step" strategy you purport is fiction.


does it piss you off that everybody sees through you marxists' crisis creation ruses now?

Cedarford said...

bagoh20 said...
Realistically, there will come a time very soon when most people will need to be "euthanized".

Those not dying outright from trauma will be either kept alive for very long periods with no quality of life, or let go by the most humane, but deliberate action. This is an inevitability of medical progress. We need to face it one way or another. I know what I want.
===================
True.
Medical technology and over 2 million in medical costs kept the 95% rotted-out brain Schiavo husk alive when what was left should have joined Terri Schiavo in the hereafter 15 years previously.

Santorum's "every second of life is a gift from Jesus...Baby Bella..would have expired in a miscarriage or shortly after birth w/o medical intervention. And most senile people would have succumbed to "the old folks friend" pneumonia.

And for those with metastatic cancer - if nothing is left in the end but pain as the victims body destroys and eats itself (with Gods full blessing and acquiescence in it happening, for the deeply religious) - no quality of any meaningful life - euthanasia is not a extreme, out of the question path to take.

Aridog said...

@bagoh2O ...I know what I want.

Thank you for that courage and honesty. I feel the same. Unless I've misinterpreted what you mean.

But it is the subject not to be spoken of today. I, for one, do not wish to be a burden to anyone I love, ever, if I can help it. I've lived a very good life, been all over the world, have great highs and some lows, and hope to live a good while longer. But when I am no longer capable of "living" as I define it, then please let it end...and let me have the near OTC means to that end.

Synova said...

Sure, you hear about people going to the hospital and getting sicker and sicker because they get the wrong treatment, or the next shift of nurses don't realize that a few hours earlier grandma was an alert old lady with a broken wrist, or whatever. You hope that someone realizes, at some point, that maybe they're being treated the wrong way and something else needs to happen.

And maybe it does or maybe it doesn't. But at least you believe that everyone involved is *trying*.

But it really is a different level of creepy horrible-ness when it's a government policy to *not* try, and the only way to save yourself is to get better in spite of being treated in a way that does nothing to heal you, and everything to drug you past the ability to defend yourself.

edutcher said...

Robert Cook said...

Wrong. Obama's stated goal is single-payer, but he admitted we can't get there in one step. ACA is an inconvenient bridge to what he wants.

Nope.

He may have said such things in his younger days or on the campaign trail, but it wouldn't be the only things he lied about while campaigning, or his only change of heart.


Hate to break it to Cook, but Zero's allegiance to single payer goes back to his days in the IL State Senate.

So this was no campaign lie, no more than his fondness for $8/gallon gas.

Consider the fact that he never wavered in his support, but realized he had to sell the plan to the country.

As Evan Thomas said, we're all Grandpa now.

Own it.

AllieOop said...

Synova, nurses report to each other inbetween shifts, then every person on that report roster is assessed and charted on by the shift nurse, so there is a written record.

Errors happen when the staff works very shorthanded and are overwhelmed. And that can be avoided if the facility actually gave a damn and put the patient before profit.

Brian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TosaGuy said...

Quite the social norm they have over there in Liverpool.

TosaGuy said...

"Errors happen when the staff works very shorthanded and are overwhelmed."

Or when they are lazy and don't give a rip.

The nursing profession is subject to the same human foibles as anyone else.

AllieOop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert Cook said...

"does it piss you off that everybody sees through you marxists' crisis creation ruses now?"

Why would I be pissed off by--or even notice--some such kooky paranoid notion invented--or hallucinated--by right wing cranks?

Synova said...

"Synova, nurses report to each other inbetween shifts, then every person on that report roster is assessed and charted on by the shift nurse, so there is a written record."

Oh, I know. And when the rare error happens at least you can pretty much figure that it *wasn't* because people didn't care or had a policy to let old expensive people die.

I mean... I think a recovery room attendant (I don't know if she was an RN or not) turned my outpatient surgery into a four day stay, but it was a boo-boo caused by her trying to make me comfortable, not because she had it out for me.

Something being *policy* is far more upsetting than a mistake.

Robert Cook said...

"...(Obama's) allegiance to single payer goes back to his days in the IL State Senate.

"So this was no campaign lie, no more than his fondness for $8/gallon gas.

"Consider the fact that he never wavered in his support...."


...until he came into office and, having made a bunch of back room deals, he refused to even allow others--much less himself--to even speak of it during the supposed "all points of view wanted" brainstorming sessions. He even took the possibility of a public option out of discussion.

On the one hand, you John Bircher types denigrate Obama as a bumbling incompetent, unable even to speak without recourse to teleprompters--(I think you're confusing Obama with his predecessor)--and yet you ascribe to him a Mr. Spock-like strategic cunning, whereby he is playing three-dimensional chess such that his sell-out to the pharmaceutical and health insurance industries will ultimately produce the dreaded single payer health insurance.

You're wrong on both counts. He's not incompetent...he's just a servant of the wealthy elites.

Scott M said...

You're wrong on both counts. He's not incompetent...he's just a servant of the wealthy elites.

And you're basis your entire point on the hopes that he won't change his mind...again...if given the opportunity and the means to do so. What proof could you possibly have that would stop such an occurrence?

For the record, I do think he's incompetent. That doesn't mean stupid, it means he's in over his head and does not possess the skills necessary for the job.

Chip S. said...

...and yet you ascribe to him a Mr. Spock-like strategic cunning, whereby he is playing three-dimensional chess such that his sell-out to the pharmaceutical and health insurance industries will ultimately produce the dreaded single payer health insurance.

You can't really think this is all that complicated a strategy.

Have you ever noticed that football teams don't throw deep on every play? Why do you suppose that is?

Anyway, people can easily consider Obama to be a teleprompted oaf and still believe he is trying to implement a coherent strategy devised by others. Terry Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls, after all

viator said...

130,000 murders per annum. The left hard at work trying to increase their score to 200,000,000 dead bodies in 100+ years.

The Black Book of Communism

Tim said...

"Knowing that it was a political non-starter and if the "talks" started down a single-payer pathway in any sense he'd be toast, does NOT mean that this is not what he actually would like to eventually see."

Synova, your logic is too logical.

You need to feel more than you think, lol!

Ignorance is Bliss said...

AllieOop said...
Errors happen when the staff works very shorthanded and are overwhelmed. And that can be avoided if the facility actually gave a damn and put the patient before profit.

Of course, it could also be avoided if the nurses put patients before profits and worked extra shifts for free. They certainly have no obligation to do that, any more than the facility owners have an obligation to sacrifice their profits.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Of course President Obama is not trying to kill off private insurance. He has just decided to put them on the Liverpool Care Pathway. But don't worry, if they get better he'd be willing to take them off.

Kate Danaher said...

Why wish anyone "get well" anymore?

We can always replace it with "Run, Runner!"

Robert Cook said...

"Of course President Obama is not trying to kill off private insurance. He has just decided to put them on the Liverpool Care Pathway. But don't worry, if they get better he'd be willing to take them off."

What does this even mean?