May 22, 2012

"40% Now Say Trayvon Martin Shot in Self-Defense; 24% Say It Was Murder."

In late March, 33% called it murder. It was 30% in early April.
Forty percent (40%) now think George Zimmerman, who has been charged with second degree murder in the Martin shooting, acted in self-defense. That’s up 25 points from 15% in March and up 16 points from 24% last month. Thirty-six percent (36%) remain undecided, compared to 55% two months ago.
It's heartening to see the capacity of people to receive new information and to reassess their beliefs. I was impressed even back in March that people resisted — as much as they did — the efforts in the media to stamp public opinion with a crude, racialized template.

Unsurprisingly, the opinion among black people is different, but it's not that different: 47% say murder, but the number is going down. 55% said murder in March. And 40% of black adults now say self-defense — exactly the same as percentage for adults Americans generally. Note that this means that black people are much less likely to be undecided or uncertain.

105 comments:

cubanbob said...

Why not wait to form an opinion until the state presents it's case?

Nathan Alexander said...

Any polling insight into the "Justice for Trayvon Martin" beatings/killings trend?

Is there any black remorse for those?

Any attempt within black communities to prevent such violence?

Any media remorse for fanning the flames?

Alex said...

Maybe G. Zimmermann did commit an execution style murder. We don't know.

CJinPA said...

Those numbers give me hope that maybe this thing won't end as ugly as I thought.

But the lynch mob protesters and their leaders have too much invested in this to let the facts dictate the outcome. They demand a murder conviction, or whatever it takes to put him in prison for a long time. Period.

One thing is for sure, this will lead the media to conduct some serious reassessment and self-reflection. Just kidding. The Duke rape hoax happened because five institutions did the wrong thing (Media, Academic, Judicial, Political and Religious) and it caused not one moment of pause.

Lem said...

It's heartening to see the capacity of people to receive new information and to reassess their beliefs.

Yea yea.. and Kenya was a long time ago in a place far far away.

Got it.

Alex said...

This is how liberal picture it went down:

Nazi man kills black youth

Peter said...

What bothers me is that if Zimmerman had been able and/or willing to fight back like an adult man should, the whole sordid affair could have been avoided. Instead, he let a skinny teenager get the better of him, and had to resort to deadly force.

One very true thing I've read is that every adult man should know two essential skills: (a) how to throw a punch, and (b) how to take a punch. George obviously didn't know either one.

Mitchell said...

Note that this means that black people are much less likely to be undecided or uncertain.

Certitude is its own reward.

traditionalguy said...

N.B. The change only came after the Prosecutor engaged and made some of her secret information public. There was a salutary effect from a partial trial even if done via media releases.

Our society protects victims.

The first impression was that Martin was the victim. But now the impression is that Zimmerman was the victim and everything seems different.

That change resulted from release of more information after Florida found its way around its arrogant new Stand Your Ground immunity from all court actions.

Trust the Jury and the citizens will trust the process.

Cedarford said...

The "evil white oppressor savaging the innocent black oppressed peoples" narrative crafted by guilty white liberals, white-hating blacks, and progressive jews manipulating and pulling the media strings is collapsing.
It served them well since the 1960s..lots of money and power went to race card players and the other people that profited from social discord.
But it is long past it's shelf life.

1. Public recognition exists that well into the post civil rights era - blacks still have terrible education, social dysfunction, and criminality issues as a group. And "it ain't racism" that is causing it.
2. People have gotten tired of the media inflencers hyperinflating certain "white on black" incidents - while studiously ignoring the black on other races assaults, and black on black assaults.
3. Too many of these cause celebres have turned out to be specious race card playing attempts.

Richard Dolan said...

"It's heartening to see the capacity of people to receive new information and to reassess their beliefs."

LOL. It's God's way of telling you that you've spent too many years in a university setting, where such events are evidently quite rare. It should also be a wake-up call to the special prosecutor that this case may be heading south rapidly.

Imagine trying to find a venire that hasn't had exposure to the intense coverage, or formed opinions about Zimmerman's encounter with Martin.

Thorley Winston said...

Why not wait to form an opinion until the state presents it's case?
Agreed (although assuming this goes to trial, I think you mean “until the defense presents its case”), I’ve tried to do just that on the assumption that the early media reports were likely to be misleading as our 24-hour news culture puts a higher premium on getting a story FIRST than on getting it RIGHT. Add to that what appears to be a human tendency (including among journalists) to constructive a narrative of what must have happened and to disregard or minimize any facts that conflict with the narrative and I think you have where we are today.

I don’t know what happened that night and have no opinion as to Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence although I think the facts that have come out seem to make it increasingly difficult for the State to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Then again, I’ve never tried a criminal case in Florida, and Corey has asserted that there are additional facts that they have not yet made public. What these could be, I have no idea.

Hagar said...

Napoleon is said to have advised that what can just as easily be ascribed to stupidity, foolishness, and general incompetence should not be assumed to be due to conspiracy.

There is no "new" information here; it was all known to the Sanford authorities, verified, and on record by the day following the shooting, and this whole brouhaha could have been avoided by immediately releasing that information to counter the charges alleged by the YouTube video from Virginia weeks later.

That it wasn't may be due to someone(s) in Sanford playing political games, or just to bureaucratic boneheadedness.
I wish some intrepid reporter would make it his business to find out which it was.

Jay said...

Well, there certainly are a bunch of bitter clingers to "the narrative" who are all over the Internet. Perhaps they are just a vocal minority.

I hope so as there has been not one bit of evidence to support "the narrative" that has been released.

All evidence supports Zimmerman.

bagoh20 said...

There is no question about the guilt of the media, race hustlers, and others who cared little for the facts.

I warned some here that their comments we're going to embarrass them eventually. That's if they're lucky enough to learn anything.

I saw what was some people creating a Zimmerman character to fit a type of person or other that they had a deep seated hatred for, and attributing those qualities to Zimmerman when they didn't know anything about him.

There was a hatred for the vigilante type, the person who dared to arm themselves, to try and protect their neighbors, to not blend into the crowd and hide quietly. There was a hatred for a man acting like a man n his community. It was a beta feeding frenzy, and it was embarrassing to watch.

MadisonMan said...

I still say the same thing I did back then: I don't know what happened, I wasn't there.

Zimmerman certainly killed Martin, that's about all I know.

Matthew Sablan said...

"What bothers me is that if Zimmerman had been able and/or willing to fight back like an adult man should, the whole sordid affair could have been avoided. Instead, he let a skinny teenager get the better of him, and had to resort to deadly force."

-- The case would be worse for Zimmerman if he had killed him in a fistfight. It would have been less clear of self defense, compared to being overwhelmed and shooting while pinned.

Nathan Alexander said...

Zimmerman certainly killed Martin, that's about all I know.

If you don't know anything else, how do you know this?

Because Zimmerman said so? Then by what logic do you ignore or disbelieve the other things he said?

Why go whole hog on the fact of the killing and squeamish on any of the truly important contexts?

Shanna said...

Why not wait to form an opinion until the state presents it's case?

I think it’s human nature to have an opinion based on what facts you know, or think you know. That opinion might easily change with new facts, provided you haven’t become too attached to it.

That change resulted from release of more information after Florida found its way around its arrogant new Stand Your Ground immunity from all court actions.

? What the heck does Stand your Ground or immunity from court actions have to do with release of information as part of the court process?

MadisonMan said...

If you don't know anything else, how do you know this?

It was Zimmerman's gun that did the killing. There is no reporting of any kind of struggle for the gun.

Two people meet, one has a gun, the non-gun-holder dies. I think the conclusion is obvious, absent other facts -- which have not been forthcoming.

Jay said...

MadisonMan said...
Two people meet, one has a gun, the non-gun-holder dies. I think the conclusion is obvious, absent other facts -- which have not been forthcoming.


What conclusion is "obvious" to you?

Jay said...

That change resulted from release of more information after Florida found its way around its arrogant new Stand Your Ground immunity from all court actions.



Um, there has been no immunity hearing to date.

To say you don't understand the relevant statutes is an uderstatement of titanic proportions.

Scott M said...

Why go whole hog on the fact of the killing and squeamish on any of the truly important contexts?

Well, the easiest answer is that Martin is, in fact, dead.

Naum said...

The simple fact remains here: that a grown man with a gun, safe in his locked car, against the implicit instruction of a 911 police operator, left that car to pursue, confront and kill a child (yes, racists, under the age of eighteen one is legally considered a child) who was holding nothing more than a bag of Skittles and an iced tea.

William said...

Perhaps Trayvon profiled Zimmerman as a soft white man who deserved a beat down for eyeballing......I saw the video of Trayvon in the store. He wore the hood over his head. You can claim this is racism on my part (and perhaps some of it is), but Trayvon gave off an air of menace. He was, in my opinion, going for the thug life look. It may just have been a teen ager's affectation on his part, but that's the look he was going for. There was far more in his appearance to inspire wariness than trust. Trayvon was embracing the stereotype as much as Zimmerman was stereotyping him.

Scott M said...

yes, racists, under the age of eighteen one is legally considered a child

How do you know he was in a locked car? Under 18 is considered a minor, not a child. Your heart strings apparently need a little tuning.

Shanna said...

yes, racists, under the age of eighteen one is legally considered a child

Under 18 is considered a minor, not a child.

Indeed Scott. Additionally, they are often considered legal adults by the court (ie, 'tried as an adult' cases which happens at younger ages than 17, and emancipated minors).

Or maybe Naum's entire comment was brilliant sarcasm, since it was full of stuff we don't actually know at all.

Jay said...

against the implicit instruction of a 911 police operator

Hysterical.

You left out the part where Martin was on his knees begging for his life and Zimmerman coldly pulled the trigger!

Jay said...

left that car to pursue, confront and kill a child

You really need to stop hitting the bottle before noon.

It may help you in the coherence department.

Naum said...

Look, if you were a 17 year old kid walking alone at night and a man 100 lbs bigger than you jumped you or otherwise tried to detain you, wouldn’t it be logical to fight for your life against who knows what – a pedophile? A robber? A killer? Hasn’t anyone ever heard the phrase: “you shoulda seen the other guy!”? I’m guessing poor Trayvon suffered more than a few vicious blows in his attempt to get away from a random psycho who accosted him for no reason. It saddens me deeply when people choose to divide us as Americans rather than seeking truth and justice for all.

Matthew Sablan said...

"left that car to pursue, confront and kill a child"

-- That implies that was his goal. It was not. Also, that "child" is reported and witnessed to overpowering the grown man and beating him, sustaining injuries only on his fists and from a gun shot wound. Maybe Zimmerman did something we don't know about yet that makes Martin's actions defensible. But, it sort of would be helpful if the prosecution started either letting that stuff out to the press too, or acknowledged: "Yeah. Every release makes us look worse. Trust us, we've got something." Something so this doesn't seem as strange as it does.

Jay said...

Naum said...
Look, if you were a 17 year old kid walking alone at night and a man 100 lbs bigger than you jumped


Yes!!!

Because as we all know Zimmerman outweighed the teen-aged football playing Martin by 100 pounds but chased him down anyway!


Idiot.

Jay said...

I’m guessing poor Trayvon suffered more than a few vicious blows in his attempt to get away from a random psycho who accosted him for no reason.

Hey dumbass:

The autopsy was released and Martin had no injuries.

But of course your ignorance is vital in you bitterly clinging to the narrative.

You good little bitter clinger you.

Matthew Sablan said...

Er... Naum, go back and read their descriptions on Wiki. Martin was 5 feet 11 inches and 158 pounds (per the autopsy). Zimmerman was 5'8" and his weight as 185 pounds.

That's not that much of a difference. Have you been keeping up with the case?

William said...

Years ago, early in Coleman Young's mayoralty in Detroit, there was an incident between a black motorist and a policeman. The motorist was parked outside a house that was a known drug location. The cop told the motorist to move. The motorist told the cop that it was a public street and that he didn't have to move. They got into a fight. The cop hit the motorist over the head with his police radio. The blow was delivered with sufficient force to fracture the skull of the motorist. The motorist died from as a result of this injury. He had no known history of drug use or drug dealing......The cop was prosecuted vigorously. Under Coleman Young, there was a new order in Detroit. The cop was convicted of second degree murder, and the police learned their lesson. A cop can always stay in his car and drive on. No more innocent motorists were murderd by the police and the good citizens of Detroit learned to live in peace and harmony.

Fen said...

24% are ignorant morons.

The simple fact remains here: that a grown man with a gun, safe in his locked car, against the implicit instruction of a 911 police operator, left that car to pursue, confront and kill a child

Utter complete lie.

Jay said...

It saddens me deeply when people choose to divide us as Americans rather than seeking truth and justice for all.



Your fact-free, ignorant postings insinuating that something took place which did not are divisive and outragous.

You ugly race baiter.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

The simple fact remains here: that a grown man with a gun, safe in his locked car, against the implicit instruction of a 911 police operator, left that car to pursue, confront and kill a child (yes, racists, under the age of eighteen one is legally considered a child) who was holding nothing more than a bag of Skittles and an iced tea.

Yep, and like all evil,child murdering racists he thoughtfully dailed 911 before doing so.

Naum said...

Does a black child, followed and confronted by an adult, have no right to be afraid of them? To fight back upon being accosted? To stand his ground? The claim that Zimmerman had given up on the pursuit of Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin blindsided him is corroborated by no one, was not believed by investigators on the scene, and is utterly discredited by Martin’s girlfriend, who heard the words exchanged between the two, and then the sound of shoving, 2-3 minutes after the end of Zimmerman’s 9-1-1 call. If one chooses to believe Zimmerman on this absurd point, it can only be because one finds the story so plausible based upon one’s own preconceived notions of black aggression, that the facts in evidence no longer matter.

Nathan Alexander said...

It was Zimmerman's gun that did the killing.

How do you know this?

Why do you explicitly trust this bit of information, and not other information from the exact same source?

Fen said...

Nuam: a man 100 lbs bigger than you jumped you or otherwise tried to detain you

And that didn't happen either.

You're just a compelte idiot, yes?

Matthew Sablan said...

Sad story William. Totally unrelated and not comparable to this case, but, sad story.

Jay said...

The claim that Zimmerman had given up on the pursuit of Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin blindsided him is corroborated by no one

The claim that Zimmerman confronted Martin is corroborated by no one.

Idiot.

Matthew Sablan said...

Originally, Martin's girlfriend was reported as saying she lost contact after someone asked what Martin was doing. Since then, the report of her account has added details. This does not mean her account has changed, just that the report has. Until I hear her give it, or have it corroborated by some official document, I'm hesitant to trust the reports.

Cedarford said...

Naum said...
The simple fact remains here: that a grown man with a gun, safe in his locked car, against the implicit instruction of a 911 police operator, left that car to pursue, confront and kill a child (yes, racists, under the age of eighteen one is legally considered a child) who was holding nothing more than a bag of Skittles and an iced tea.
===================
One of the true believer "clingers" to the racist black, guilty white liberal, and progressive jewish media string-puller "Narrative".

1. No arrest in America has ever been made of someone not obeying the orders, let alone the advice of a telephone operator with no authority under color of law.

2. What you call "children" - those under 18 'troubled youths' - commit 20% of the murders and 35% violent crimes in the country.

3. 18% of murders and 50% of violent assaults resulting in significant injury are done by "unarmed males". Yes, even some with a box of Skittles or snickers bar in their "hoodie".

4. "left that car to pursue, confront and kill a child..." Yep, that is a core part of the black racist, progressive media master jews, and guilty self-loathing whites.
Doesn't mean one iota of it is true. Other than someone leaving their home or car to keep a suspected thug in sight after calling the police...which is not a crime, BTW..

Jay said...

and is utterly discredited by Martin’s girlfriend, who heard the words exchanged between the two, and then the sound of shoving, 2-3 minutes after the end of Zimmerman’s 9-1-1 call.

And yet you, furious little poster of silly talking points believe that Martin's girlfriend heard this disturbing and horrifying event that she did not call the police, did not call the Martin family, in fact, did nothing.

Jay said...

Matthew Sablan said...
Originally, Martin's girlfriend was reported as saying she lost contact after someone asked what Martin was doing. Since then, the report of her account has added details.


And all the details are being added by Crump.

Naum said...

Our justice system has been infected with the Zimmerman mindset for decades: a mindset that views black men in particular as a problem to be controlled. It has led to the War on Drugs, a “get tough” movement and a prison-building boom unprecedented in modern history.

jeff said...

"The simple fact remains here: that a grown man with a gun, safe in his locked car, against the implicit instruction of a 911 police operator, left that car to pursue, confront and kill a child (yes, racists, under the age of eighteen one is legally considered a child) who was holding nothing more than a bag of Skittles and an iced tea."

You left out some other facts. Such as there was no implicit instruction, there was a suggestion that carries zero weight. The story that he left the car to pursue, confront and kill are all not facts in evidence, and are disputed by Zimmermans story. It is not a fact that he knew the age of the "child" and you totally left out the punching and smashing of Zimmermans head into the concrete by someone only holding ice tea and skittles. In other words, your "facts" are not facts at all, but you have decided that's what happened and your mind is made up. So you represent what's wrong with people in this case.

Jay said...

Naum said...
Does a black child, followed and confronted by an adult, have no right to be afraid of them?


Nobody is saying that someone who is being followed should not be afraid, goofball.

There is no evidence anywhere, at all, that Martin was "confronted"

fight back upon being accosted?

There is no evidence, anywhere at all, that Martin was "accosted"

Further, you have no right to punch someone in the face who asks you what are you doing

Idiot.

Dave said...

Bagoh20 said "There was a hatred for a man acting like a man n his community."

Really? It might have been better for Mr. Zimmerman to really act like a man and stay home and mind his own business rather than play cop. His misguided attempt to "protect" the community resulted in the death of an innocent member of that community. Who knows, maybe Zimmerman looked suspicious to Trayvon. If someone sits in a parked car on my street at night, it looks suspicious to me. Murder, manslaughter, accidental homicide - whatever it's called the result is the same and it can't be undone. And no REAL man would feel anything but shame and remorse for having been the cause of an unnecessary death.

Scott M said...

a mindset that views black men in particular as a problem to be controlled.

Even living in one of the highest violent crime areas in the country, St Louis, I found this sentiment to be on the ebb until the last few years. I suppose you don't believe the seemingly random acts of violence your aggrieved demographic has been perpetrating are true? I can't speak for Milwaukee, Norfolk, or other places around the country, but the incidents of groups of young black men assaulting non-blacks is on the rise and has been, recently, occurring in neighborhoods far from where those arrested for the attacks live. It's this last little fact that is particularly troubling.

Jay said...

It might have been better for Mr. Zimmerman to really act like a man and stay home and mind his own business rather than play cop.

Yes~!!

Because calling 9-11 is playing cop!!!

Idiot.

Jay said...

His misguided attempt to "protect" the community resulted in the death of an innocent member of that community.

Actually idiot, the "innocent" member of the community's decision to punch Zimmerman in the face and bash his head into the sidewalk resulted in his death.

But keep pretending.

Naum said...

Jay, calling everybody an "idiot" does not make for a justified case…

Jay said...

Naum said...
Jay, calling everybody an "idiot" does not make for a justified case…


1. That isn't all I've said

2. You are an idiot.

Kirk Parker said...

tradguy,

You're pathetic. The only thing the "secret information" did was make it harder for the racist demagogues to keep on demagoguing. The rest of us, who were cautious and based our take (including lots and lots of "wait and see") on what information was actually released, as it was released, needed to make no change.

Actually, you're beyond pathetic on this one. How many shovels have you worn out so far?

Naum said...

Jay wrote: You are an idiot.

And you are a hate filled ignorant bigot.

Ann Althouse said...

"Look, if you were a 17 year old kid walking alone at night and a man 100 lbs bigger than you jumped you..."

It's important to remember that this is a criminal prosecution against Zimmerman, who is entitled to the safeguards, such as the requirement that his guilt be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

If Martin had lived and Martin were charged with, let's say, assault and battery, he too would have these safeguards.

It might be that under the circumstances, neither man would be convicted. That's perfectly logical, considering the burden of proof and the subjectivity in the mental element.

So it's not a matter of deciding which of the 2 men was wrong or saying that if Zimmerman isn't guilty, then Martin is.

It's really important to understand that!

Ann Althouse said...

A word to the wise: Don't let Naum aggravate you. Stay on topic.

Let's stop calling each other "idiot" and whatnot.

Make good points on the substance of the controversy.

Stop the back and forth personal remarks now.

Hagar said...

Jay,
Actually, Zimmerman has said that Martin accosted him while he sat in his truck after the initial 911 call and made him more than a little nervous and even more suspicious, and that is why he decided to follow him, I think.

The tale hangs together that it was Trayvon Martin who decided to take down this honky cracker that was bugging him.

cubanbob said...

Naum said...
Look, if you were a 17 year old kid walking alone at night and a man 100 lbs bigger than you jumped you or otherwise tried to detain you, wouldn’t it be logical to fight for your life against who knows what – a pedophile? A robber? A killer? Hasn’t anyone ever heard the phrase: “you shoulda seen the other guy!”? I’m guessing poor Trayvon suffered more than a few vicious blows in his attempt to get away from a random psycho who accosted him for no reason. It saddens me deeply when people choose to divide us as Americans rather than seeking truth and justice for all.

5/22/12 11:50 AM

For someone who wasn't an eye witness you are pretty sure of your yet to be proven facts. Maybe Martin was looking to do a little breaking and entering. I don't know that to be a fact but is far more plausible than your assertions.

I do hope the trial is televised.

Naum said...

Hundreds of thousands of black and brown young men are subjected to the very kinds of interrogations that Zimmerman was trying to carry out because of “stop-and-frisk” policies. But we treat these policies as the price that black men must pay for the security of others.

traditionalguy said...

The truth is seldom seen on drama TV shows, but when a Jury sits in judgement on other people over several weeks/months and sees the accused and the witnesses interactions with questions and hears the voice stress levels and mixes in the details presented as facts and mixes in a lifetime of common sense, and then has slept on that over many nights of mental cogitation, then the Jury does something almost supernatural.

They get the right result for the strangest of reasons when questioned afterwards, but they get the right result.

But meantime the Blog's commentariat can have fun attacking each other's every idea and reported factoid that is floated as a proven Blasphemy.

Jay said...

Naum said...
Hundreds of thousands of black and brown young men are subjected to the very kinds of interrogations that Zimmerman was trying to carry out because of “stop-and-frisk” policies.


Hysterical.

There isn't one mention by any police officer or in the 180 page discovery document that Zimmerman was trying to carry out an "interrogation"

Want to guess why that is?

Matthew Sablan said...

"They get the right result for the strangest of reasons when questioned afterwards, but they get the right result."

Hopefully, they get the right result. It didn't work that way in To Kill a Mockingbird, and I'm pretty sure it sometimes doesn't work that way in real life either.

Jay said...

traditionalguy said...

They get the right result for the strangest of reasons when questioned afterwards, but they get the right result.


Like in the OJ case?

By the way, the purpose of trials in America is not to find out "the truth" or "what happened"

But you carry on asserting that.

But meantime the Blog's commentariat can have fun attacking each other's every idea and reported factoid that is floated as a proven Blasphemy.


You haven't bothered yourself to become remotely familiar with the facts in this case, so how would you know?

Shanna said...

then the sound of shoving

What does shoving sound like exactly? And how can one tell who is doing the shoving over the phone?

Jay said...

Naum said...

And you are a hate filled ignorant bigot.


Yes!

Because not accepting your did not happend bizarro version of events = bigotry!

cubanbob said...

Naum said...
Hundreds of thousands of black and brown young men are subjected to the very kinds of interrogations that Zimmerman was trying to carry out because of “stop-and-frisk” policies. But we treat these policies as the price that black men must pay for the security of others.

5/22/12 12:49 PM

Sure the police stop blacks and mostly blacks at random and arrest them for non existing crimes. Why else are the prisons so disproportionally full of blacks?

Thorley Winston said...

I do hope the trial is televised.
I hope not. The last thing our justice system is a repeat of the OJ debacle that comes from having television cameras in the court room.

Hagar said...

Naum,
With your scenario you will have to explain how come it was Zimmerman who was taken by surprise and wound up flat on his back with his head being pounded into the sidewalk.

traditionalguy said...

Jay...In a Courtroom the Jury is king.

The surest way to lose the case is to act like they must do whatever you tell them to do because you know it all and they are ignorant.

Actually, a macho man is the least favorable attorney to have on your side. He makes the men jealous because he necessarily competes with them for the affections of the ladies on the Jury.

Let professionals do their jobs.

The OJ case was an outlier. The beautiful communicator Johnny Cochran simply tried and convicted the LAPD beyond a reasonable doubt while the Prosecution puttered along reliing on forensic evidence. That Jury punished the LAPD for its 80 years of racism by pardoning OJ. Maybe that was the right result.

Jay said...

The OJ case was an outlier.

Actually, it wasn't.

Do you know how many people have been let out of jail since DNA testing has become available?

Hint: over 2,000

Matthew Sablan said...

"In a Courtroom the Jury is king."

-- Judges can overturn some jury decisions, can't they? (And this is coming from myself, a proponent of jury nullification [in some instances!])

Jay said...

Whether or not the jury is king in the court room is irrelevant since charges should have never been filed in this case.

The positive news is that since liberalism destroys everything it touches, Prosecutor Corey has wrapped herself in liberalism on this.

Palladian said...

Hundreds of thousands of black and brown young men...

What about taupe young men? Or medium grey? Carnation pink fading toward avocado?

Palladian said...

I prefer my young men lightly browned, topped with a cordon of hollandaise.

traditionalguy said...

Mathew...Trial Judges can direct a verdict if not enough prosecution evidence is presented, or they can grant a Judgement Not withstanding the Verdict if on hindsight not enough evidence was entered. But those 2 are rare as hen's teeth.

The trial Judge will sometimes use the grant of a Motion for a New Trial.

But once the Jury is not overruled by a trial Judge, the verdict that it finds is forever the facts and not anyone in DC, the UN, the World Court or the local Dem mafia gang can do a damn thing to change that. Now that's a good feeling.

Kirk Parker said...

Althouse,

"A word to the wise: Don't let Naum aggravate you. Stay on topic.

Let's stop calling each other 'idiot' and whatnot."

Yes, this is good advice (and even if it weren't it's your blog.)

However, you can't really be of the opinion that Naum is arguing in good faith, can you? I say this on the "you can have your own opinions but not your own facts" basis.

Shanna said...

That Jury punished the LAPD for its 80 years of racism by pardoning OJ. Maybe that was the right result.

Unless you gave a damn about the two people OJ murdered.

By all means, let's have people go to jail or go free based on the crimes or potential rioting of other people.

Steve Koch said...

Alex said...
"Maybe G. Zimmermann did commit an execution style murder. We don't know."

An execution style murder is typically point blank range to the back of the head. According to a witness, Trayvon had mounted Z man MMA style and was administering an MMA style ground and pound to Z man. Z man suffered two black eyes, a broken nose, deep cuts to the back of his head, etc. Trayvon hurt his knuckle, presumably from punching Z man.

Who executes somebody by first calling 911, letting the "victim" mount them for extended ground and pound (sustaining serious injuries in the process), screams for help, and finally shoots the "victim"?

The only way Z man is guilty of anything is if he threw the first punch. Even that does not seem likely since Z man's fists inflicted zero damage on Trayvon. Why would Z man start a fight when he knows the cops are responding to his 911 call?

Steve Koch said...

traditionalguy said...

"The OJ case was an outlier. The beautiful communicator Johnny Cochran simply tried and convicted the LAPD beyond a reasonable doubt while the Prosecution puttered along reliing on forensic evidence. That Jury punished the LAPD for its 80 years of racism by pardoning OJ. Maybe that was the right result."

Profoundly stupid. OJ committed the crime and should have done the time. The DA was afraid of riots by lawless blacks so he moved the trial from the upscale neighborhood where the crime occurred (Brentwood, IIRC) to a black area so there would be a black jury. The monumentally stupid and corrupt black jury let OJ off even though he was obviously guilty. No riots, no justice.

Blacks complain a lot about police racism but blacks commit much more crime than any other racial group in the USA so the cops learn to be suspicious of young black males. It is a matter of probability.

Anybody who is a cop for a significant period of time will probably have his attitudes changed as a result of the experience.

damikesc said...

Does a black child, followed and confronted by an adult, have no right to be afraid of them?

Sure. Do they have a right to physically assault them? Seems like a no.

To fight back upon being accosted?

Can you cite what injuries this "accosting" caused? Trayvon's girlfriend said he initiated the confrontation with Zimmerman and all.

The claim that Zimmerman had given up on the pursuit of Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin blindsided him is corroborated by no one

Except that George would not be able to catch Trayvon and all.

utterly discredited by Martin’s girlfriend, who heard the words exchanged between the two, and then the sound of shoving, 2-3 minutes after the end of Zimmerman’s 9-1-1 call

The one where Trayvon said he'd deal with him? That call?

If one chooses to believe Zimmerman on this absurd point, it can only be because one finds the story so plausible based upon one’s own preconceived notions of black aggression, that the facts in evidence no longer matter.

Yup. Everybody is racist but you.

Our justice system has been infected with the Zimmerman mindset for decades: a mindset that views black men in particular as a problem to be controlled. It has led to the War on Drugs, a “get tough” movement and a prison-building boom unprecedented in modern history.

So, it's racist to not allow a black man to beat you up horribly? Not sure I follow this "logic".

Hundreds of thousands of black and brown young men are subjected to the very kinds of interrogations that Zimmerman was trying to carry out because of “stop-and-frisk” policies.

Hey, if you don't want your neighbors to look out for you at all, that is all on you. I don't mind being a part of my neighborhood watch.

That Jury punished the LAPD for its 80 years of racism by pardoning OJ. Maybe that was the right result.

Shame those two folks had to be murdered savagely to allow this cleansing, huh?

Awful cavalier with others' lives, aren't you?

Naum said...

Ask yourself the question, "Did Mr. Martin act in self-defense?" Imagine that you're looking for your father's house when, suddenly, you're chased by a stranger. The stranger isn't wearing a uniform and he doesn't display a badge. You haven't done anything illegal. When you're caught, the stranger asks annoying questions and he looks dangerous. What would you do?

If Martin had been white, or 30 years older, his critics would be applauding his courage and crying over his martyrdom.

Scott M said...

If Martin had been white, or 30 years older, his critics would be applauding his courage and crying over his martyrdom.

You're saying an awful lot, Naum, without responding to direct challenges to your points by other commentators here (hint, there are a lot more than just Jay). Why is that? Is it because you don't feel like your point of view will survive debate? Or is it because you simply don't read others' comments because your point of view won't survive debate?

Which is it?

Jay said...

Naum said...

Ask yourself the question, "Did Mr. Martin act in self-defense?" Imagine that you're looking for your father's house when, suddenly, you're chased by a stranger. The stranger isn't wearing a uniform and he doesn't display a badge. You haven't done anything illegal. When you're caught, the stranger asks annoying questions and he looks dangerous. What would you do?


It doesn't matter because none of this took place between Zimmerman and Martin.

Hagar said...

Naum,
There were two occasions where Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman were face to face. In both cases Martin accosted Zimmerman and asked the questions.

Admittedly by Zimmerman's testimony, but it fits the independently recorded evidence, which your story does not.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

if you were a 17 year old kid walking alone at night and a man 100 lbs bigger than you jumped you or otherwise tried to detain you,

Nice fiction since Zimmerman doesn't weigh 100 lbs more than Martin and he didn't try to detain or jump Martin.

Unless you have some super secret power of farsight and the ability to turn back time, you and I have no way to know exactly what happened.

But....don't let that stop you from making up fairy tales.

bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

Let's not forget the Duke Lacrosse case.

Same indignant assholery by people incapable of leaving their imaginary world for the one of facts alone; no matter how hard others tried to help them out.

Since that abomination based on the lies of one Crystal Gail Magnum, she has been arrested on totally unrelated charges of attempted murder, first-degree arson, assault and battery, identity theft, communicating threats, damage to property, resisting an officer and misdemeanor child abuse.[

She is currently awaiting trial for the April, 2011 stabbing of her boyfriend to death - sometimes known as murder. She has been ruled mentally competent to stand trial.

Let's not forget, how incredibly, stubbornly stupid some very highly educated and informed people were about that case.

If you are a fool, only you can fix it.

Naum said...

What always shook me about this case, was not the belief that Zimmerman ruthlessly slaughtered a 17-year old child, but the act of putting myself in that child's place, and seeing how I just as easily have ended making a decision to defend myself.

Paco Wové said...

It's interesting (to the student of Internet trollery, at least) to compare the trolling styles of Naum and traditionalguy.

Jay said...

Naum said...
the act of putting myself in that child's place, and seeing how I just as easily have ended making a decision to defend myself.


It is funny how detached from the real world liberals are.

You are actually surprised that if you sucker punched & broke somebody's nose, got on top of them and started pounded their head on the pavement they might shoot you?
Really?

Alex said...

Naum said...

What always shook me about this case, was not the belief that Zimmerman ruthlessly slaughtered a 17-year old child...

Wow - is that how leftists view this case?

Marshal said...

CJinPA "One thing is for sure, this will lead the media to conduct some serious reassessment and self-reflection. Just kidding."

Great!

Marshal said...

Althouse "So it's not a matter of deciding which of the 2 men was wrong or saying that if Zimmerman isn't guilty, then Martin is.

It's really important to understand that!"

This is probably the difference of perspectives with a law professor but I couldn't care less about this. This is a weakness of knowledge reflected in the law. The important questions to me are "can we learn enough for reasonable people to agree what happenned?", and if so "will the law enforce that agreement?".

bagoh20 said...

" The important questions to me are "can we learn enough for reasonable people to agree what happenned?", and if so "will the law enforce that agreement?"."

Quite possibly no.

In the O.J. case, most people believe that O.J. did it because that's what the evidence showed, but people still wanted different verdicts anyway. Some simply wanted O.J. to get away with it.

In this case, some will be happier if an innocent man is convicted, than having to accept that the knee-jerk reaction they had to the circumstances was wrong. It's pathetic and sad, but I know that's true for some. I lose all respect for such people. Such a thing is simply reprehensible, and unforgivable. It makes you incompatible with this country's exceptional values. It's un-American.

Fen said...

Libtard: Imagine that you're looking for your father's house when, suddenly, you're chased by a stranger.

Martin wasn't chased. That you have to keep adding such hyperbole just shows how weak your argument is.

Martin had every opportunity to retreat. But instead of going home, he chose to double back, stalk Zimmerman, then attempted to beat him to death.

Live like a thug, die like a thug.

Martin deserved to die.

Naum said...

Resistance to white nationalist resurgence must take many forms. It will require a movement that surpasses the mobilizations of the Sixties, which defeated de jure apartheid only to see the erection of a vast police state based on the organizing principle of racial containment and oppression. So bold have the racists become, they now seek to empower white citizens in general with lethal privileges to defend white space, wherever it is claimed – a reversion to lynch law, on top of police terror.

Gary Rosen said...

"progressive media master jews"

You mean like the NYT that hates Israel as much as you do bwahaha? Meanwhile C-fudd still pimps out molesters every chance he gets.

Shanna said...

So bold have the racists become, they now seek to empower white citizens in general with lethal privileges to defend white space

Nonsense.

Anyone of any color is allowed the right to self defense. If you don't want someone to shoot you, don't trap them on the ground and punch them repeatedly in the head.

This is not complicated.

Jay said...

So bold have the racists become, they now seek to empower white citizens in general with lethal privileges to defend white space



Um, by no definition is George Zimmerman "white"

Kirk Parker said...

Fen,

That's too strong. First of all, up until the time Martin decided to assault Zimmerman, no he didn't deserve that. And even then, "deserve" is too strong, as nowhere in the country does simple assault receive the death penalty. What I would say, rather, that in choosing to assault someone Martin's death is on himself.

nana said...

I have a question for all of you, did this frightened child have time to get to the apartment where he was staying?