April 20, 2012

"When I took the weapon in my hand, it was like 100 voices in my head saying 'don't do it, don't do it.'"

"I was walking with rifle in my hand, in a bag. I thought, it's now or never. That minute seemed to last for a year."

50 comments:

Darrell said...

See?
You should listen to those voices in your head afterall.

Darrell said...

After all, too.

David said...

Why is this man being allowed to give this testimony publicly? If it was truly necessary to extract all this detail, why give him the public platform which he so earnestly desired. He is getting exactly what he desired to achieve.

bagoh20 said...

I don't see anything that can be done to prevent this kind of thing... ever.

It's like a deadly hurricane or tornado, but infuriating due to it's senselessness. Perhaps if the survivors could imagine it as a natural disaster, it would be easier to accept.

edutcher said...

Last time I listened to the voices in my head, I walked up to this Rubenesque blonde in Cancun...

But, yeah, guys like this always seem to have the Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing 200-part harmony in their heads.

leslyn said...

@David. That's the way they do it in Norway. They're not as adversarial as here.

leslyn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wally Kalbacken said...

The guy is nucking futz, I say.

traditionalguy said...

It is a good chance to watch the Nazi mind in action. Everything is about them doing noble acts of murder that the victims brought on themselves by thinking incorrectly.

Its so easy for people to fall into the heroic murderer identity. The epiphany for us watching them is that the Nazis comes from ordinary intelligent people and they can pass for that until it is too late. They get away with it until we risk speaking out.

Which brings to mind Obama's hand picked staff in charge of weakening and eliminating Israel.

YoungHegelian said...

No, this guy is not nuts. He writes much too lucidly to be nuts.

What he is, is a fascist. And too often the history of fascists & fascism is simply that they are nuts. And they're not.

Fascism is the other "great" revolutionary totalitarian movement of the 20th century, the first being Marxist-Leninism.

Fascists aren't nuts; they're evil.

David said...

Leslyn: My comment has nothing to do with the mode of questioning, adversarial or not. Does he have a right to make this statement? Otherwise, he should not be given the forum. Yes, we get--or think we get--all sorts of insight into his thinking. But he gets to publicize himself and his unrepentant "message" to Norway.

I have no idea whether this process was necessary under Norweigan law. But if it was not, a grave error was made in giving him this platform.

~N. said...

I disagree with the idea we shouldn't make testimony like this public. Why? Why shouldn't we all see what a real monster is, what his thought processes are, what real psychopaths look, sound, act like?

And, interestingly enough, it's both creepy and telling to hear some of the same rhetoric I see at conservative political and religious forums popping up in his testimony -- the feminizing of men, the suppression of emotion because is bad, the relegation of women to second class status when it comes to reading and interpreting documents.

It's horrible enough to read, and I imagine it's a thousand times worse to witness in person, but we should all witness the unfolding of true evil like this, IMO.

YoungHegelian said...

@David,

While in general I might agree with you on the advisability of giving an extremist a platform, in this specific case I'll disagree.

The reason I disagree in Breivik's case is because I think the media has painted him as simply an anti-immigrant xenophobe. He's that, but he's much more.

He hates social democrats, because they're the ones who let in the immigrants to destroy Norwegian culture.

It's my hope that his ranting will break through the media stereotype of "Raaaaacist!" and let Norwegians and Europeans understand that there are people out there who want to murder them & their children BECAUSE they are social democrats.

leslyn said...

Letting him testify in Norway was his right in their court system.

BTW, I don't believe his statement about the "100 voices." I think he's just playing with that. He planned the first attack (bomb), he practiced it with video games, when it didn't get as much attention as he wanted, he went to the island to blow children away.

He's been unrepentant in court, said he'd do it again, and the judge had to tell him to stop raising a power first. Any voices in his head telling him to stop? Nahhhh.

YoungHegelian said...

@~N

....the feminizing of men, the suppression of emotion because is bad, the relegation of women to second class status when it comes to reading and interpreting documents.

Oh, give the "hidden fascists on the American right" meme a rest, will you?

You've got the President & high office Democrats vilifying the rich and talking about "income fairness". The Prez and high office Democrats, not some loner with a rifle! That's sure some scary themes! Sounds downright Bolshie to me!

Should Romney start telling us to watch out for Obama's Gulag's and the midnight knock on the door by the NKVD?!

~N. said...

@YoungHegelian

I was thinking more religious than political, actually, although the Catholic rightwingers who echo those sentiments tend to be the same ones who are pushing for a Catholic Taliban of sorts.

I agree with everything you say about the Obama administration. Doesn't mean I can't read this psychopath's testimony and not raise an eyebrow at the commonalities I see between his words and words I've read elsewhere.

YoungHegelian said...

~N

I was thinking more religious than political, actually, although the Catholic rightwingers who echo those sentiments tend to be the same ones who are pushing for a Catholic Taliban of sorts.

There's no "Catholic Taliban" in the US or much of anywhere else. You're saying that there are Catholics who approve of beheadings or mass murder or forced conversion? Pretty serious charges. You got some quotes there, or is this just your idea of a "deep reading"?

And opposing abortion or considering homosexuality "objectively disordered" does not make one a member of the "Taliban"

Scott M said...

There's no "Catholic Taliban" in the US or much of anywhere else. You're saying that there are Catholics who approve of beheadings or mass murder or forced conversion? Pretty serious charges.

The entire world would become as terrifying as that island in Norway was if the Christians had the same percentage as Muslims do
that embrace violence as a desirable means to an end.

~N. said...

I think you misssed the "of sorts" bit.

No, I realize there isn't a formal Catholic Taliban, and I realize those Catholics who advocate for Catholic teaching to be incorporated into law don't advocate corporal punishment for those who break those laws (at least not openly).

However, you seem to be nitpicking immaterial things in order to pick a fight, so whatever.

I still think it's necessary to witness this kind of evil, as uncomfortable as it may be, and I still find the similarities between some of that monster's rhetoric and rhetoric I've seen and heard elsewhere to be troubling.

You don't. Fine.

tim maguire said...

~N, you're getting a little more wacko with each post. Catholics, liberal hysterics notwithstanding, are more left than right.

The Catholic Taliban...well, this is the first I've heard of it but I have no doubt it doesn't exist in any form real or imagined (by Catholics).

And Fascism is a left-wing movement, not right. It is an offshoot of socialism.

~N. said...

tim maguire

I didn't say all Catholics by any means. The Catholic to whom I refer are a pretty small minority, AAMOF, among all Catholics.

Again, I'm talking about the rhetoric and where I've seen it. It's merely a personal take on the story. That's all. Stop interpreting it as some huge commentary on the state of All Catholics And Conservatives Everywhere.

YoungHegelian said...

@~N,

However, you seem to be nitpicking immaterial things in order to pick a fight, so whatever.

Utter bullshit, ~N.

You slandered my faith & the faith of over 900 million RC in the world by comparing us to people to chop the heads off of people on video and throw acid in the face of little girls.

And you've got nothing when called on it.

Words have meaning, ~N. And when you overreach for histrionic effect you weaken your argument.

As punishment, you've got to sit in the same corner as Andy. But, we're not going to make you say the Rosary six times.

This time.

traditionalguy said...

~N~ & Young Hegelian...The point ~N~ made is that this is a doctrine associated it with Religions that take a narrow view of what people are allowed to think inside the group.

It sets up the group for an ideological response to everything and that response in turn gives cover to the ordinary intelligent people who are paranoid enough about an enemy (pick one) to say they deserve killing.

We need to think for ourselves and freely blaspheme their doctrines all we want to if only to expose the Nazi types by their fierce reactions to us.

The Evil we speak of here can also be called as a sinister evil spirit that specially hates women and their babies. (See, Madame Blavatsky, a psychic oracle who brought the Nazi movement into the world in the 1880s).

~N. said...

Yep. Words have meaning.

If I had said ALL CATHOLICS EVERWHERE, you might have a point.

But I didn't. I explained exactly which Catholics I'm talking about.

So I didn't slander you, your faith and every other Catholic out there (and the Church still counts me in that number you quote, dear, so I'd be slandering myself).

As punishment...? Who cares? I'm getting on a plane and going back to Kauai for another week tomorrow morning now that we've closed on our house there (my little Easter basket to myself). So have fun ignoring me while I'm not here.

Guess who won't be thinking of you while she's soaking up the sun, swimming in a pool of water beneath a waterfall, and flying over the NaPali coast?

~N. said...

Oh, and for the record, YoungAsshole, I am VERY aware of what the fucking Roman Catholic Church does to little girls. VERY.

Acid would have been preferable.

So a big fat fuck you right back at you.

Leland said...

Funny how ~N pretends he lacks the hate that so easily bubbles up when asked a followup question.

Lyssa said...

N - I am VERY aware of what the fucking Roman Catholic Church does to little girls. VERY.

Acid would have been preferable.


WTF? I was a Catholic little girl once, and the worst thing they ever did to me was feed me some unusually bland bread. What on earth are you referring to?

Tibore said...

Ok, when it's the voices in the man's head that end up being the voice of reason, then that guy is waaaaay off his rocker.

Rusty said...

N said,
And, interestingly enough, it's both creepy and telling to hear some of the same rhetoric I see at conservative political and religious forums popping up in his testimony --


This is your interpretation?


I was thinking more religious than political, actually, although the Catholic rightwingers who echo those sentiments tend to be the same ones who are pushing for a Catholic Taliban of sorts.


How is equating Catholics, "of sorts" with the Taliban not inciteful?


No, I realize there isn't a formal Catholic Taliban, and I realize those Catholics who advocate for Catholic teaching to be incorporated into law don't advocate corporal punishment for those who break those laws (at least not openly).


Where is this happening?
(at least not openly) again prejudicial.


However, you seem to be nitpicking immaterial things in order to pick a fight, so whatever.


It's a little late to cry foul. Those are your words. You either mean them or not.


So I didn't slander you, your faith and every other Catholic out there (and the Church still counts me in that number you quote, dear, so I'd be slandering myself).


AAaand then we have this;


~N. said...
Oh, and for the record, YoungAsshole, I am VERY aware of what the fucking Roman Catholic Church does to little girls. VERY.



Every fuckin' one of them, right?

YoungHegelian said...

@lyssa,

~N was lucky we didn't release the Bender Kraken!

No one expects the Althouse Inquisition!

Rocketeer said...

I am VERY aware of what the fucking Roman Catholic Church does to little girls. VERY.

Acid would have been preferable.


Wait for it...wait for it...wait for it....aaaaaaannnd - there it is.

The mask comes off, just like we knew it would.

David said...

Lyssa, my wife was a catholic little girl too. There was a nun who would rap her fingers with a ruler. That was it, though.

Tibore said...

"edutcher said...
Last time I listened to the voices in my head, I walked up to this Rubenesque blonde in Cancun..."


Last time I listened to the voices in my head, I disguised myself as some Rubenesque blonde in Cancun, only to have this weirdo hit on me...

... oh, Hi! (*shuffles away*)

traditionalguy said...

@Young Hegelian...Feel free to lead The Althouse Inquisition.

You must know that exposes you and a few cohorts to be seen as narrow minded thought police asserting that there is no truth outside your of ideology's necessary reality.

Are your ideas so vulnerable that you must send out a storm of commenter attacks and assertions of knowing all of the permitted facts in order to drive out competing opinions at the forum?

Your doctrines may be a very good ones, except for necessary blind spots so that it sells better. But demanding everyone's perfect allegiance to your doctrines exposes grade-B cruelty.

Alex said...

I still don't understand why Norway doesn't summarily execute the bastard. Just line him up against the wall NOW.

YoungHegelian said...

@TradGuy,

Uhhh, might I ask what bizzaro universe that last post came from?

My faith was compared to the Taliban, remember that?

You can gloss ~N comments any way you want, but permit me the liberty of my own interpretation.

When have I asked anyone on this forum for allegiance to Catholicism? Go search the archives and find one. I simply defend my faith from calumny and explain its tenets. No more no less.

As you can guess from my handle, I worked many years in the saltmines of philosophy. I am well aware of the reasons behind being something other than Catholic.

That you understand a joke line from a Monty Python skit and see it as evidence of some darker religious urgings makes me wonder if you, too, should be in the corner with Andy.

traditionalguy said...

YoungHeglian...I apologise for any attack made upon your faith.

But the faith you jump to defend is as capable as any of the others, among Judeo-Christian scripture based faiths, of using strong legalism and forgetting about adding in the grace antidote.

When a religion loses its balance there, it can elevate minder types like the Saudi Arabian religious police.

I thought you were telling ~N~ that she may not see evil in , speak evil of, or hear evil about what she thinks she saw in connection with your common Faith. But she might just be a whistle blower to help your faith, and not a destroyer out to get your faith.

YoungHegelian said...

@tradguy,

I thought you were telling ~N~ that she may not see evil in , speak evil of, or hear evil about what she thinks she saw in connection with your common Faith.

I said no such thing. Nor have I ever defended wrong-doing by the Catholic hierarchy, with whom I've always had a more miss than hit relationship.

Please read the thread exchange again. ~N starts by implied calumny against the Right, which moves to Cathlics, which moves to some Catholics.

No names. No examples. No nothing. I asked for quotes, and got nothing. Finally what I got was insults.

My interpretation seems to be shared by other commenters.

I'm sorry for whatever may have happened to him/her. The malefactors should face the full weight of the law. But his/her approach is seriously flawed and doesn't garner support for what may be a righteous cause.

I'm out of here. You can have the last word. I promise to read it later tonight.

Methadras said...

David said...

Why is this man being allowed to give this testimony publicly? If it was truly necessary to extract all this detail, why give him the public platform which he so earnestly desired. He is getting exactly what he desired to achieve.


Because, unfortunately, the nord leftards have been completely deballed and have played into this nutcases vision for a Muslim-free norway. Is Brevik wrong in his assessment of what is happening in his country, in most ways yes, but in the important ways no. He even claims that he is not crazy and I believe him. He further claims of his long standing self-training to in effect dehumanize himself. That in and of itself is a conscious effort to shield yourself from the gruesome acts that he knew he would have to undertake. He is a product of the nord culture and hated it, the culture that has adopted marxism/socialism as its primary ideological vehicle for governance, and he acted in trying to stop it. He failed, but unfortunately he took many with him in his failure. May he rot in hell for all eternity.

Methadras said...

~N. said...

@YoungHegelian

I was thinking more religious than political, actually, although the Catholic rightwingers who echo those sentiments tend to be the same ones who are pushing for a Catholic Taliban of sorts.


Catholic Taliban? Really? Name one. I'm interested or is this just nitwit hyperbole?

Blue@9 said...

The testimony just confirms to me that no evil person acts from the belief that he is doing evil. Even Hitler thought he was doing mankind a service. So remind yourself of that any time you start thinking "I can't be acting evilly because I have such good intentions!"

Blue@9 said...

N:

No, I realize there isn't a formal Catholic Taliban...

And yet there is an informal Catholic Taliban? Do tell.

leslyn said...

@Alex:
Norway doesn't have the death penalty. Are you a Texan?

leslyn said...

Methadras said,

He is a product of the nord culture and hated it, the culture that has adopted marxism/ socialism as its primary ideological vehicle for governance, and he acted in trying to stop it. He failed, but unfortunately he took many with him in his failure. May he rot in hell for all eternity.

Is the "rot in hell" because he took "too many"? How many would be acceptable? Orjust enough? Or does it depend on who he took put? He has the right to decide who's good enough and who's not?

Or is the "rot in hell" because the bomb failed to do enough damage to the Nordic culture, "the culture that has adopted marxism/ socialism as its primary ideological vehicle for governance." Was it because that wasn't enough? How much is enough for you? How much death and destruction is enough to you for this small, peace-loving country that established an underground network to smuggle people out of Hitler's deathly country?

Craig said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dr Weevil said...

Poor leslyn can't seem to understand even words of one syllable. Methadras did not write that Breivik "took too many with him", but that he "took many with him". Any implication that Methadras would have approved of the killings if he hadn't killed quite so many seems to be entirely a product of leslyn's incompetence at reading.

leslyn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Lynch said...

He's not nuts. He's a professional terrorist.

Europe has had a lot of terrorists. Since the fall of Communism we've gotten a break, but it may be over.

Alan said...

I still don't understand why Norway doesn't summarily execute the bastard. Just line him up against the wall NOW.

I don't understand why they don't give Breivik the Nobel Peace Prize. He killed fewer people than Yasser Arafat did. Isn't that worth something?

John Lynch said...

Let's remove politics for a second. I don't really care about his motivations- they always have some reason for being a terrorist. Bashing Norway for its socialist politics is stupid. America had Tim McVeigh. People who want to kill find some reason to do it.

For this much evil to be done by one man, he had to really, really think things through. This terrorist was smart. To be utterly clear, "smart," isn't a compliment- intelligence is simply a means to accomplish many things, good or evil. I don't admire the bastard. I know a lot of smart people who would never do anything like this.

He had a political objective. He thought of a means to achieve that objective- mass murder. He broke into tasks what he needed to do to kill those people, like buying a farm to get the fertilizer to make a bomb. He solved problems as they arose, checking the boxes with the Norwegian bureaucracy to get weapons. He trained and practiced.

In short, fairly methodical and sane behavior put toward an evil end. For someone with no training and no organization, it's surprising. I'm sure there was a fair amount of bad luck in not catching him sooner, but I doubt many people could have done it. Tim McVeigh, for instance, needed the help of two other men.

There's a reason why so many Al Qeada terrorists are not only college educated but are engineers. Being a professional terrorist, not just a bomb-carrier, requires a lot of intelligence. There's a lot of planning, discipline, and a lot of opportunities to make fatal mistakes. It requires a lot more than a willingness to murder.

He'd have gotten along well in the RAF or Al Qeada. This isn't mere fanaticism but more like operational planning. Terrorist middle management.

He didn't have any foot soldiers to carry out what he planned to do, which is fortunate. That was the real limit on what he could do- he had to do everything himself. To bring anyone else into it would have risked the whole thing.

And that reflects well on Norway, actually. There weren't enough people to get together and do even more damage.

I think that having this testimony out in the open is good. I don't trust the government to learn much from this other than "BAN GUNS & FERTILIZER." What failed here was one man's moral compass. Whether that has any greater significance, I don't know.