April 17, 2012

"Get her off the stage right now" — said of Trayvon's mother...

... who's not on script but speaking like a human being with her own moral core.
"One of the things that I still believe in, a person should apologize when they are actually remorseful for what they've done. I believe it was an accident. I believe that it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back. I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager, and that he did not have a weapon?"
What would you do if you were monitoring a dark, rainy world and you suddenly encountered someone who had a mind of her own and said what she really thought?

She doesn't look like she belongs here.... get her off the stage right now....

169 comments:

Quayle said...

All things must bend to the political struggle which is primal and paramount.

Fen said...

Stranahan: "an apparent fear that 'being honest' could negatively affect the race-baiting political agenda that Obama allies like Al Sharpton have carefully crafted."

Fen said...

"George Zimmerman stalked my son and murdered him in cold blood."

Two lies. He wasn't stalked and he wasn't murdered in cold blood.

DADvocate said...

What!! We have a black woman who's not filled with hatred and rage?! Hide her in the back room! All the more proof that the outrage is not about Trayvon Martin but about the agenda/narrative. Yes, "God bless Sybrina (Fulton)..." without the other qualifications.

Mark O said...

A "stage." Well, that is where one expects actors, nothing more. She bombed in New Haven.

AprilApple said...

I like what Bill Cosby has to say. He's a smart, reasoned man.

Read down to the Ann Romney portion. Wow, the left have a bottomless reservoir of hatred for females who are not part of the left-wing group-think establishment. The prog-left have an endless supply of vitriol stored up for females who do not tow the leftwing line. This hatred makes them look desperate and silly.
Obama and Pelosi are such failures, the prog-left must go after Ann Romney. What else can they do? Desperation.

Fen said...

A "stage." Well, that is where one expects actors, nothing more

Well, at least they're admitting its a show trial.

AprilApple said...

Agenda media.

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fen said...

I like what Bill Cosby has to say. He's a smart, reasoned man

Not really. Not on this.

He thinks the right to self-defense only applies in the home.

He thinks that people risking their lives to protect his family should do so unarmed.

He's also swallowed the spin. He wrongly implies Zimmerman was on duty with a gun. When the truth is that Zimmerman was simply a concernced citizen with a cc permit.

Scott M said...

I like what Bill Cosby has to say. He's a smart, reasoned man.

And has been for decades. The black community would do well to hold him up as one of their best roll models.

Moose said...

She's part of the "conversation" around race now. What she personally thinks should be subservient to the overall message that goes along with left's politcal goal - which is to stoke additional conflicts not related to the actual event.

RonF said...

So far the only person who seems to be treating Trayvon Martin as a person instead of a tool for an objective (outside of his own family) is the man who killed him.

rhhardin said...

Traditionally old black women are not filled with hate and rage.

The infinite sweetness of old black women, somebody wrote of the old south in the WSJ, probably 20 years ago.

This one is thinking the best of her son, and then the best of Zimmerman given that.

RonF said...

Dr. Bill Cosby, BTW. He has a Ph.D. in Education from the University of Massachusetts, and it was not honorary - he earned it.

chickenlittle said...

Fen said:
He's also swallowed the spin. He wrongly implies Zimmerman was on duty with a gun. When the truth is that Zimmerman was simply a concernced citizen with a cc permit.

Don't forget that Cosby suffered a tragedy within his own family with guns. Sometimes, parents feel strongly about certain issues and should recuse themselves from discussion or at least remind people where they are coming from.

Fen said...

That's fair. I'm also impressed that he has a real degree, not an honorary one. So I should be less harsh with him.

Fen said...

"Get her off the stage and back to the plantation!" screamed the Democrat.

Pogo said...

I sort of hoped that Obama would use his bully pulpit to defuse the racially charged atmosphere, but instead he increased the animosity, saying If I had a son....

I hoped for that in the same way I hope the MN Twins/Vikings/Timberwolves don't suck.

And here a mother says something that might defuse the situation, and the left is horrified.

Gotta have race hatred before the election, else what are the Democrat's gonna talk about?
Employment?
Gas prices?
Health care?
Student loan slavery?
Michelle's vacations?
The GSA?
The TSA?
The war?
Much easier to keep replaying the 1960s.

Democrats, the Classic Rock station of politics.

AprilApple said...

Fen - I am not a gun owner and I am a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment. I think, on balance, a responsible armed citizenry is a good thing. Still, I am open to some concerns (they are guns after all) and my point with Bill Cosby was that for being anti-gun, at least has a reasoned position. Something your rarely get from anti-gun side.

AprilApple said...

"Get her off the stage and back to the plantation!" screamed the Democrat.

Precisely.

Fen said...

No worries April.

Pogo said...

This is the second time the Democrats said a mother didn't know what she was talking about.

They really shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about economics and public safety, and other important stuff.

Mom, get off the stage!

prairie wind said...

This one is thinking the best of her son, and then the best of Zimmerman given that.

Yes. I can't imagine losing my son and then dealing with the media and the pressure from Sharpton, Jackson, et al. on top of it.

Scott M said...

This is the second time the Democrats said a mother didn't know what she was talking about.

Correction! Third time. Bob Beckel told mother Jennifer Stefano that she didn't "know what the fuck you're talking about" live on the air.

...then argued with Hannity about being live on the air...then accused Hannity of not running his show better.

prairie wind said...

If we are counting the times libs have said mothers don't know what they are talking about, there must be at least one instance of them saying that about Sarah Palin. At least one.

AprilApple said...

Scott M-
Agreed.
Cosby suggests to the black community to break free from the self-defeating cycle of victimhood. Get an education and learn how to think for yourself and act responsibly. The left bristle at such dangerous ideas. How dare he suggest them. After all, it is easier to stay corralled on the democrat Al Sharpton/Jesse Jackson plantation of paranoia and eternal victim.

Pogo said...

So, now it's 4 moms told to get lost.

Women are a useful victim group, until they're not a victim, then they're all Get off the stage!

Hagar said...

I think she spoke for herself when she said that, and then the lawyer and others got on her about ruining the party line and the foundation they were laying for the civil lawsuit to come, and she buckled and got back on course.

Fen said...

[Lady Watkins to Sybrina, in a deep southern drawl]

"Now sugar, how many times have we discussed this? When I bring you into town you are to be seen and not heard."

edutcher said...

Once again, thank you, James Taranto. Nothing shows the moral bankruptcy of the Left (has anyone yet criticized Watkins for what he said?) and the race hustlers (has any "black leader" yet refused to be associated with Jessuh Jackson or, particularly, Al Sharpton?) than this little piece.

And, yeah, Fen's out of line WRT Cos. You may disagree with him, but, as chick notes, he has earned a right to his opinion.

Truth in advertising: I've been a Cosby fan since I was 13 in terms of his entertainment career and a fan of his efforts to turn the black community around.

Scott M said...

This is the second time the Democrats said a mother didn't know what she was talking about.

Correction! Third time. Bob Beckel told mother Jennifer Stefano that she didn't "know what the fuck you're talking about" live on the air.

...then argued with Hannity about being live on the air...then accused Hannity of not running his show better.


Boortz, who was on the show at the time, is willing to give Beckel a pass on it, but, having seen too many Conservatives, Republicans, and ordinary people driven from public life for less, if this becomes an issue of Beckel being dismissed from FNC, let him go.

I never heard him asking for mercy for someone on the other side who made a similar mistake.

prairie wind said...

If we are counting the times libs have said mothers don't know what they are talking about, there must be at least one instance of them saying that about Sarah Palin. At least one

Bet Bill Maher or David Letterman has.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

April likes what Cosby has to say.

"I'm a person who believes that that gun, the gun, all around this United States, when a person has a gun, sometimes their mind clicks that this thing is--it will win arguments and straighten people out." Cosby took a fairly moderate antigun position, endorsing the right to have a gun "in your home to protect yourself." But he said that "when you tell me that you're going to protect the neighborhood that I live in, I don't want you to have a gun."

Fine then Bill. You protect YOUR neighborhood the way you want and keep out of MY neighborhood and how we want to protect ourselves.

STFU.

traditionalguy said...

The Martin family has asked for the justice system to act for their black teenage son who was mistaken for a burglar and confronted by an unauthorized stranger at night and shot in the chest. He was being profiled as a punk teenage burglar wearing a hoodie as black teens often do.

They have never asked for a mob. They have never asked for a lynching. The have only asked why the killing was arrest free because there was an unlikely story being told by the shooter of his near death experience in an unprovoked attack made upon him by their happy son walking home.

That son was raised by the mother and father we see and hear in these interviews with his brother we a;so see and hear.

So come down from the racial war barricades and think that there might be more here than politics. If race baiting is a political plus for Obama, then that's all the more reason to wait for the outcome as if you are not stuck on stupid defending racial profiling.

The question the courts are willing now to answer is why Zimmerman fired the shot. If he sticks to his perfected story, then he will be acquitted since there were no others there to watch it happen. Case closed.

But if a Jury disbelieves Zimmerman and believes that he formed a quick on the spot intent to kill because he hated punk burglars who dared to strike back at him on his own territory he was defending as a self appointed Charles Bronson style vigilante, then maybe he will not walk.

But the Martin family deserves legal process, the denial of which created this political storm.

Scott M said...

STFU.

Bill Cosby doesn't deserve a STFU.

Thorley Winston said...

"George Zimmerman stalked my son and murdered him in cold blood."

From what I can tell from the probable cause affidavit, a key fact in the prosecution’s case seems to be that Mrs. Martin claims to have to have identified the voice calling for help as that of her son’s. Even if the judge or jury is predisposed to feel sympathy towards her for the loss of her son, comments like this are probably not going to help her credibility.


If I were the prosecutor or a plaintiff’s attorney handling a criminal or civil case against Zimmerman, I would not want her making comments like that in public.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Bill Cosby doesn't deserve a STFU.

On THIS he does. He can run his life the way he wants.

STFU and stay out of mine.

Shanna said...

Fine then Bill. You protect YOUR neighborhood the way you want and keep out of MY neighborhood and how we want to protect ourselves.

I agree with you DBQ, but the thing that people like about Bill Cosby is that he thinks for himself. We may disagree with him on this point, but it's nice to have an at least somewhat reasonable public person who is willing to state hard facts on occasion.

I heard that 'accident' comment and it is the most reasonable thing I've heard from the family on this. This whole thing was obviously a horrible accident, at the end. Too bad she had to walk back from her reasonablness with the whole 'stalked and killed in cold blood' nonsense.

Methadras said...

The racist victimhood Kabuki continues. Tune in next time when Al Sharpton trots out a feces covered young black woman stuffed in a trash can. Oh wait.

Fen said...

trad: their black teenage son who was mistaken for a burglar and confronted by an unauthorized stranger

I stopped reading at this. But you can tell how weak the narrative has become by watching how much hyperbole and deception trad has to add to the mix.

Mistaken for a burglar?

Unauthorized stranger?

*snort*

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

Bill Cosby is that he thinks for himself.

Perhaps, but he also wants to tell the rest of us what to do in this instance. The Second Amendment doesn't just apply to your bathroom or hallway or end at the front door.

Watch and see. The rabidly anti 2nd Amendment people will use this statement to push gun control and try to negate CC laws.

He is a reasonable man, usually. He has also taken much flack from the professional race hustlers for stating the truth to the black community. I will give him respect for standing up and being honest.

Fen said...

trad: stuck on stupid defending racial profiling.

More bullshit. From the 911 tapes, Zimmerman is not even sure if Martin is black.

How can you racial profile a perp without knowing his race?

In trad's world you can.

Fact: Martin caught Zimmerman's attention because he was behaving suspiciously - wandering around at nite in the rain, apparently casing out houses.

Fen said...

I'm with DBQ. Cosby's cred as a victim of gun violence?

"According to prosecutors, Markhasev demanded money from Cosby, then shot him in the head because he was moving too slowly."

So its the gun's fault, not the perp who used one to commit a crime.

Sorry, but this is another example of why celebs should shut up.

edutcher said...

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Watch and see. The rabidly anti 2nd Amendment people will use this statement to push gun control and try to negate CC laws.

He is a reasonable man, usually. He has also taken much flack from the professional race hustlers for stating the truth to the black community. I will give him respect for standing up and being honest.


Probably right on the gun grabbers, although I wonder if he'll allow them to coast on his dime.

And, yes, he's really been reviled by the Sharptons, Jacksons, and other "community organizers" for telling black people that they are responsible for their lives.

Scott M said...

And, yes, he's really been reviled by the Sharptons, Jacksons, and other "community organizers" for telling black people that they are responsible for their lives.

Once a society gets to "personal responsibility is just a racist code phrase" it may be nigh upon time for some sort of reset.

traditionalguy said...

Fen... He was profiled as a teen burglar.

Teen burglars can be identified as :
1) slinking around at night, and
2)wearing a hoodie to hide their profile, and
3)being 16 to 21 in bodily growth stature, and
4) and fleeing when being seen.

How much being non-white adds to the other ID points would be a 50% bonus. That's why the dispatcher asked hom the question.

The tragedy is likely that when Zimmerman caught up to Martin, he had no social intelligence that could handle a confrontation and in a way to disarm the tension.

But he had a 9mm and used it. Oops!

Put yourself into a black man's skin and ask yourself if it is fair to face shootings at the hands of mentally defective vigilantes and that there be NO accountability for your death.

AprilApple said...

There are many celebrities who should STFU. Bill Cosby isn't one of them.
I doubt his statements will be used by any of the rabid anti-gun people. His statements are not forceful enough for that crowd. We shall see.

Fen said...

I doubt his statements will be used by any of the rabid anti-gun people

LA Times already is. Amoung others.

Fen said...

Fen... He was profiled as a teen burglar.

No such thing. You are trying to define "profiling" broadly so you can tag the narrow defintion of profiling (racism) to Zimmerman.

That dog won't hunt at Althouse.

Its really sad that you need to spin this.

Fen said...

trad: The tragedy is likely that when Zimmerman caught up to Martin, he had no social intelligence that could handle a confrontation and in a way to disarm the tension.

The tragedy is likely that when Martin doubled back to stalk and ambush Zimmerman, he had no social intelligence that could handle a confrontation with anything other than "you got a problem? No? Well you do now"

Here's a clue trad: maybe if Martin hadn't assaulted Zimmerman, he would still be alive today?

"Live like a thug, die like a thug"

Jay said...

How much being non-white adds to the other ID points would be a 50% bonus. That's why the dispatcher asked hom the question.



Really?

So the 9-11 dispatcher was in on the "racism" and the "profiling"?!

You've really lost it.

I mean, you're going to be just as butt hurt about the outcome of this case as garage is the WI recall election.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Put yourself into a black man's skin and ask yourself if it is fair to face shootings at the hands of mentally defective vigilantes and that there be NO accountability for your death.

Put yourself into a Hispanic's skin who is attempting to notify the police of a suspicious person and who according to witnesses was being attacked by the suspicious person.

Is it fair to be tarred as a racist because the person who you saw in the dark slinking around, casing cars and buildings. Hiding his identity with a hoodie, attacked you and you defended yourself?

The street can go both ways, bucko.

Seriously. Put yourself into anyone's skin of any color and don't be slinking around at night and acting suspiciously like a burglar or criminal.

You are accountable for your own actions. Period.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I doubt his statements will be used by any of the rabid anti-gun people.

Bet.

This whole incident will be used this way.

Do you live under a rock?

Pogo said...

trad guy,

In 1997, the U.S. Department of Justice reported that:
"a black male in the United States today has greater than a 1 in 4 chance of going to prison during his lifetime, while a Hispanic male has a 1 in 6 chance and a white male has a 1 in 23 chance of serving time."

Figures for 2006 showed that "One in 36 adult Hispanic men is behind bars... One in 15 adult black men is, too, as is one in nine black men ages 20 to 34. The report, from the Pew Center on the States, also found that one in 355 white women ages 35 to 39 is behind bars, compared with one in 100 black women."

So when you are policing your property and neighborhood, a God-given right, and a stranger is walking through, you profile them, for obvious risk and safety reasons.

Everyone that sees a young black male stranger walking in a neighborhood where they don't live knows that young man has an 11% chance already being a criminal, and 25% chance he will become one.

It's 'mentally defective' to deny this.

It was Trayvon who lacked the social intelligence to avoid slugging someone when he asked why he was being followed. WTF? Trayvon was the stranger in that neighborhood. it was taryvon who could not 'handle a confrontation and in a way to disarm the tension'. Punching folk does not ease tension.

Fen said...

trad: Put yourself into a black man's skin and ask yourself if it is fair to face shootings at the hands of mentally defective vigilantes and that there be NO accountability for your death.

Hey trad, do you think black men can't read? So they are allowed to be ignorant of the law?

Lemme see. I'm a black guy (irony, yummy) who just ambushed a latino and knocked him out with one punch. As I'm repeatedly slamming his head into the concrete, he comes to and shoots me dead.

Yup, you've convinced me. Totally unfair.

Fen said...

April: I doubt his statements will be used by any of the rabid anti-gun people.

DBQ: Bet.

Just for fun, how about for the next month, anytime anyone posts a new example of anti-gun people using Cosby's statements, April does 10 push-ups.

April you in?

AprilApple said...

Show me a quote and a link from a "news" story where the MSM use Cosby's statements as reason to restrict cc laws and I will do as many pushups as I can under my rock. I will also grovel for forgiveness.

Shanna said...

Trayvon was the stranger in that neighborhood. it was taryvon who could not 'handle a confrontation and in a way to disarm the tension'. Punching folk does not ease tension.

Trad wants to pretend the punching didn't happen. Or maybe that it was totally ok and understandable.

Someone should have taught Trayvon to settle his differences with words instead of fists.

Alex said...

I guess tradguy has never been a victim of a home invasion, look at how flippant he is about the whole deal.

Alex said...

Once Punch Homicide

Yeah one punch can kill.

traditionalguy said...

Everybody acknowledges that people react to strangers based on profiles.

That's why we wear uniforms in various professions. It is a signal to people. As Lawyers we wear a white shirt, tie and a dark suit. Without that uniform many new clients would not accept our advice.

The upper middle white men class in Buckhead wear loafers with no socks on casual dress days.
Wearing socks is a big tell that you are an outsider here.

The issue is when will whites accept black skinned men as insiders.

It is our problem and we need to solve it.

That's the issue that got Obama elected to solve; and if we go back on its apparent solution, it may get him reelected.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ April

You are a good egg :-)

Time will tell and just think how good your biceps will eventually be. We must we must improve our bust.

Alex said...

tradguy - you're insane. If I see some random black man in my neighborhood you bet I'm calling 911.

Shanna said...

It is our problem and we need to solve it.

Maybe it's your problem, it's certainly not mine.

Although I guarantee you there are places I would be considered an 'outsider'. Why don't you go have a chat with them?

Michael K said...

"
The question the courts are willing now to answer is why Zimmerman fired the shot. If he sticks to his perfected story, then he will be acquitted since there were no others there to watch it happen. Case closed.
"

There was an eyewitness who is laying low due to this circus. When he testifies, a lot of people's narratives will be blown up.

AprilApple said...

Dust Bunny Q-
It's a win/win. :-]

Saint Croix said...

The tragedy of the Zimmerman case, to me, is that it very likely was an accident. Martin assaulted Zimmerman (out of fear) and Zimmerman responded with deadly force (also out of fear). And I think both Martin and Zimmerman overreacted.

I do not believe the unarmed man was using deadly force, and it seems to me that a manslaughter case against Zimmerman would be a strong possibility, based on the facts as I know them.

I feel a murder 2 prosecution is ridiculous. And the racialism of this prosecution--and the media circus--disturbs me greatly.

I think a manslaughter conviction, with a year or two in jail, might be justified in this case. Or might not, depending on how serious the attack was on Zimmerman and how bad his injuries were.

But with the way the media has dramatized this case, and made some really ugly racial allegations, I feel that putting Zimmerman in prison would likely result in his being raped or murdered.

The media in this case has behaved horribly. And the prosecution, at least so far, has been disgraceful.

Kirk Parker said...

"...confronted by an unauthorized stranger..."

Oh dear God.

"That's why the dispatcher asked [him] the question."

What I said above. Do you have a link to the dispatcher saying what his/her thought process was? Or is it more likely they asked because they wanted to convey, to the police they were dispatching, as much info as they could to help them ID the specific individual Zimmerman was calling about?

Saint Croix said...

If I see some random black man in my neighborhood you bet I'm calling 911.

"Yes, I'd like to report a black man in my neighborhood."

You know a false 911 call is a crime, right? And that being black isn't actually illegal. You fuckwit.

traditionalguy said...

I may be insane by the sandards of this blog and where you live, but I have an excuse:

I live in an international city which provides higher education in Engineering and Sciences at Georgia Tech and Medicine and liberal arts at Emory University and its world class CDC institution.

The population here is educated and in all skin colors from all over the planet. The gay population here in mid-town is second only to San Francisco.

Racial profiling here is a handicap. Doing it here is silly. Although treating Yankees as equals is hard some days.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Racial profiling here is a handicap

Except in this case, it wasn't 'racial' profiling.

Zimmerman was profiling the actions of the person in question. Sneaking around at night, in the rain, seemingly casing out cars and buildings and obviously not acting like a legal resident of the area. Red flags go up no matter WHAT ethnicity is of the person being observed.

Profiling actions. He didn't mention race UNTIL he was asked by the dispatcher in order to get a better description of the suspicious man lurking in the neighborhood.

Firehand said...

http://www.bob-owens.com/2012/04/somehow-missed-this-911-call-shows-zimmerman-was-not-persuing-martin-when-confrontation-occurred/
Zimmerman was not following Martin at the time of the attack, and Martin seems to have had enough time to get home; instead, appears he went back after Zimmerman.

Tell you what, people have died of a punch, of being punched and hitting their head, and you damn well can die if someone is beating your head on concrete; that does count as lethal force, I would think.

As to Mr. Cosby, might be more sympathetic to him if I hadn't read that he's had a carry permit himself; so was he 'intending to kill someone', or is it only other people?

harrogate said...

My few cents:

1)That the mother is saying things which contradict one another during this time, swinging from giving Zimmerman the moral benfit of the doubt to accuing him of cold-blooded murder, does not seem political to me, but a rather normal reaction of a parent. Putting myself in her position, I would hope nobody would expect me to be "consistent" with my feelings about anything at all.

2)I also think it is a very bad idea to use the words and attitudes of loved ones of a victim--regardless of whether those words and attitudes agree with your own views--as evidence of much of anything, let alone the right way to proceed in a criminal investigation. In truth, maybe she should indeed be "off the stage."

kimsch said...

DBQ - you put gave me an earworm...

We must, we must, we must increase our bust.
The bigger the better, the tighter the sweater, the boys depend on us!

I remember that from my early teens.

Except it wasn't push-ups, it was crossing one's arms in front with hands just above elbows and contracting.

harrogate said...

3)I'd be fucking pissed, and consider it a threatening action, if while I was out walking, some "concerned" asshole followed me because he didn't like the look of me. Zimmerman *might* have been defending himself at the moment of shooting the gun, but no matter what happened, what we know precludes him from the sort of encomiums (or however you spell it) Althouse and many of her followers seem to want to bestow upon him.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ kimsch

I know!!

We were so politically incorrect and culturally insensitive when we were in jr. high. Tee hee.

Fen said...

April: Show me a quote and a link from a "news" story where the MSM use Cosby's statements as reason to restrict cc laws and I will do as many pushups as I can under my rock. I will also grovel for forgiveness.

LOL. Deal.

You're a good sport April. Remind me of that if I ever get "feral" with you.

Fen said...

trad: The issue is when will whites accept black skinned men as insiders.

Zimmerman is Latino, not white.

I know its been a few weeks since you started your Holy Quest of Racial Penance, but try to keep up.

BTW, what horrible racist act did you commit? Must have been a doozy for you to beclown yourself publicly like this.

Fen said...

harrogate: 3)I'd be fucking pissed, and consider it a threatening action, if while I was out walking, some "concerned" asshole followed me because he didn't like the look of me.

"Excuse me, Sir? Do you live around here? Sorry to ask, but we've had alot of burglaries lately. Can I help you with something?"

Fen said...

Scenrio 1

Harrogate: "Oh, no prob. Yah, I'm jsut coming back from the 7-11 with some skittle and coke"

Fen: "Okay cool man. Take care"

Harrogate: "See ya"

Fen said...

Scenario 2

Harrogate: "What? Fuck you asshole. You got a problem?"

Fen: "No"

Harrogate: "Well you do now! [throws punch, beats Fen's head against pavement]

Fen: *blam!* [shoots Harrogate]

William said...

One's sense of outrage is proportionate to the size of the wrongful death settlement. I think the second statement of the mother was the more cold blooded one. That's the one where she had her eyes on the prize.....Let it be noted that the neighborhood that Zimmerman was protecting was, in fact, the neighborhood in which Trayvon was living. Does Zimmerman get any bonus civil rights points for acting to protect the property rights of his black neighbors.....I think tradguy has decent instincts, but I fail to see why those instincts are not extended towards Zimmerman. I think it's possible acted in an officious or overly zealous way, but I don't see any overt racism in his acts.....If there is a negative stereotype about young black men, the better way to fight it is for young black men to join neighborhood watch groups instead of punching out members the neighborhood watch groups.

harrogate said...

Fen, fair enough in imaginationland, except NO account by anyone I have heard so far, suggests that "Scenario 1" took place (nor has Scnanrio 2, though popular around this blog, been shown to be what happened, for tghat matter).

Following someone while talking on the phone--'keeping an eye on 'em, as it were'--is a hell of a lot different than walking up to them and proceeding with what you describe above.

But hopefully you knew that.

traditionalguy said...

Fen...My generation did not understand the need for segregation.

I was raised mainly by black maid who was a part of the family from her teens when she had served my mother's parents. (See, Driving Miss Daisey).

When her husband was near death from doing a u-turn into a truck on a 3 wheel motocycle used at Pryor Tire where he worked, we all went down at midnight to The Grady and gave blood for him. Love begats love.

Their family name was Freeman. I assumed that their last names were picked after the War, and if not taking the old owners name, then Freeman was a good one to take. It had status.

The guilt in the south after the War was from maintaining part of the slave system under segregation by using local judges to sentence black men to the Chain Gangs where they were enslaved again to get our roads built.

When my generation came along we were threatened and condemned for not seeing a need to keep things that way. The KKK guys still had connections and the Free Masons guys were still a major social order exercising under the table political power in many areas.

Opposing them cost you a price and they let us know that. We were some like Muslims daring to convert to Christianity in Iran today. It was us that were targeted along with the Jews. (See, Leo Frank case)

So there is no way you can scare me today on a blog. Just try reasoning with me instead.

Fen said...

Following someone while talking on the phone--'keeping an eye on 'em, as it were'--is a hell of a lot different than walking up to them and proceeding with what you describe above.

Yes, but my intent was to disabuse you of the notion that residents don't have the right to police their own neighborhoods: "I'd be fucking pissed, and consider it a threatening action"

Because if you handle such an instance the same way Martin did, you'll wind up dead just like him.

Fen said...

trad: So there is no way you can scare me today on a blog. Just try reasoning with me instead.

You first. Else I'm not wasting my time on anything but playing with my food (you).

You can start by dropping all the hyperbole and dramatic spin. Besides, all that junk only makes your case look feeble.

harrogate said...

Fen, you're simply being intellectually dishonest, and I cannot help but think you know it.

Of course I would not be "fucking pissed" if someone walked right up to me and said the fantasy dialogue you presented. Mildly annoyed, perhaps, but that would be the extent of it for any reasonable person--who might well think of it as, in your words, "polic[ing] their own neighborhoods."

(Although, POLICE is a very strong verb in this case. We do not, after all, have the same authority to act towards one another as policemen have, whether we like it or not. but i'll give you the benefit of that doubt on that and assume you were using it at least with partial figurative intent).

Following someone at a distance, "policing them," as you put it. Without explaining yourself at all. It is not perfectly reasonable, innocent behavior.

I mean seriously. I am sure that if someone didn't mlike the look of you while you were out for a walk, and followed you at a distance, whether or not they were on a phone. AT NIGHT no less. You'd view it as offensive behavior. You might even would ask the person what the fuck he wanted.

harrogate said...

"Because if you handle such an instance the same way Martin did, you'll wind up dead just like him."

God that's a self-righteous, officious sentence. Can't you see that at all?

AllieOop said...

Traditionalguy,

Appealing to some folks reason isn't reasonable.

Fen said...

oh cool, our FakeNurse has logged in to whine about something...


Harrogate: Following someone at a distance, "policing them," as you put it. Without explaining yourself at all. It is not perfectly reasonable, innocent behavior.

Sure it us. I once followed a guy who fled a hit and run. The police even thanked me for my perfectly reasonable innocent behavior.


harrogate: I am sure that if someone didn't like the look of you while you were out for a walk, and followed you at a distance, whether or not they were on a phone. AT NIGHT no less. You'd view it as offensive behavior. You might even would ask the person what the fuck he wanted.

Certainly. But if they responded to my "you got a problem?" with "no", I wouldn't commence to beat them to death. If I did, I would deserve to be shot dead.


"Because if you handle such an instance the same way Martin did, you'll wind up dead just like him."

harrogate: God that's a self-righteous, officious sentence. Can't you see that at all?

Is it? Regardless, its true. You guys really are having problems with the concept of self-defense, aren't you?

Can you at least admit this: if Martin initiated the assault and was slamming Zimmerman's head against the pavement (grievous bodily harm), Zimmerman had a right to shoot him.

AllieOop said...

What took you so long to respond Fen, the wifebeater?
I think you need therapy for your compulsive lying and that bad case of narcissism.

Feral cats are stinky mangy creatures.

Fen said...

*scratches*

I guess I need a new flea collar.

Oh guys, Allie REALLY REALLY REALLY hates being reminded that she got caught pretending to be a nurse in real life. So avoid calling her AllieTheFakeNurse. Its makes her crazy fun.

Pogo said...

"Racial profiling here [Atlanta] is a handicap. Doing it here is silly."

Atlanta has one of the highest crime rates in the nation.

3.5 times the violent crimes in the nation, and the rest of Georgia.
2.7 times the property crime rate.

Blacks are 30% of the population, but non-whites committed 70% of the murders, 65% of the rapes, 82% of the robberies, and 63% of aggravated assaults.

Fen said...

AllieTheFakeNurse: Feral cats are stinky mangy creatures.

1) my namesake is a canine, and

2) that stinky mangy smell is your withering ovaries. Douche more often.

harrogate said...

Fen,

Following someone after a hit and run is an example you use? You are still intentionally obfuscating. My negative judgment about Zimmerman following Martin at a distance is predicated on something that seems to be almost totally agreed upon by multiple parties--that Martin was in fact doing nothing wrong. Except Zimmerman didn't like what he saw. Sorry, that's not enough to make him so fucking unaccountable for what happened as a resul;t of following Martin. Regardless of what Althouse's posts (and your comments) so goddamn preeingly imply.

You want to make this about you and your comrades nobly standing for self-defense, but in this conversation anyway, I didn't actually say anything about self defense and I didn't accuse Zimmerman of murder either.

Like you, I don't know enough about the criminal investigation part to make a call.

Get over your self.

AllieOop said...

Fen the hospital security guard tries to suck me in a "prove you are a nurse contest" , no Fen I don't lower myself to such games.

For someone like you to say Traditional guy uses hyperbole, is beyond funny. You don't seem to be able to put two sentences together that are not laced with hyperbole .

I won't respond to you any further, at least here on this thread.

Alex said...

Pogo - facts are for racists.

traditionalguy said...

Hi Allie. Thanks for being around and adding in some balance here.

With your brains and with my dramatic hyperbole we shall overcome someday.

AllieOop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AllieOop said...

Hang in there Traditionalguy, you are on the right track. I admire someone who continues to stick to their principles.

roesch/voltaire said...

Ah it seems the whole blog is a stage with all of us playing judge and jury. Temperance and forgiveness is a personal virtue expressed by Martin's mother, but will have no influence on the role of justice in this case. Until the trial, all that seems to be disclosed is our own bias.

Scott M said...

Blacks are 30% of the population, but non-whites committed 70% of the murders, 65% of the rapes, 82% of the robberies, and 63% of aggravated assaults.

Committed or were convicted for? Because that's what's going to be thrown back at you and then pronouncements that the justice system is hopelessly and institutionally stacked against black men.

Kirk Parker said...

"We do not, after all, have the same authority to act towards one another as policemen have,"

True enough, but not in the direction you mean: in most civilized venues (this leaves out most of our big-city crime hellholes--like, oh, say, Chicago) citizens have more freedom to so act than do the police--we are the owners/citizens/residents, they are just literally hired guns. As Sir Robert Peel wrote (perhaps apocrophally): "Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

traditionalguy said...

@Fen and Pogo...I just want to warn you that the City of Atlanta has roaming armed black men patrolling the streets dressed up like police.

So when coming through ATL (the busiest airport in the world) please don't panic and scream out about an armed uprising and refuse to get off the plane.

You will be safe here. And so will the men with darker skins coming in from India, Egypt, Nigeria and just about everywhere they sell Coca-Cola and have those country's sales executives visiting the Home Office.

But then I suspect you may be Pepsi drinkers and will be profiled for a very good reason.

Alex said...

tradguy - you're less then useless.

Scott M said...

tradguy - you're less then useless.

Wouldn't that just be "use"?

Pogo said...

Trad guy,
That's unresponsive.
The facts are what they are.

A reasonable person in Atlanta would act accordingly, and discriminate by the situation at hand.

Failure to do so is foolish, not moral or egalitarian. Even Jesse Jackson admitted that, in a famous moment of clarity.

Pogo said...

And I resent your attempt to call me racist.

That's just bullshit and beneath you.

Fen said...

harrogate: My negative judgment about Zimmerman following Martin at a distance is predicated on something that seems to be almost totally agreed upon by multiple parties--that Martin was in fact doing nothing wrong.

Interesting double-standard.

1) Keeping tabs on suspicious person until police arrive = wrong

2) Wandering around in the rain at night and casing houses = nothing wrong.

Perhaps you're a lobbyist for the Union of Criminal Thugs?

in this conversation anyway, I didn't actually say anything about self defense

Of course not. If you were to talk about self-defense, you'd be forced to face the fact that Martin doubled back to confront Zimmerman and then assaulted him. Not very good for your "Zimmerman caused this" meme.

Fen said...

Pogo: And I resent your attempt to call me racist.

I love how traditionalguy plays the race card right after asking us to all be civil.

Fen's Law.

traditionalguy said...

Pogo...You are not a racist. That is a southerner's job.

You are only a rational profiler based on skin color and other factors...like an actuary evaluating risks.

What ever will you do when Jesus returns and he is not a thin 6 foot Nordic with blonde hair?

But if He is, as most likely, a short chubby sephardic Jew with a long nose, but very loving eyes, will you reject Him?

harrogate said...

Kirk Parker,

Why so disingenuous? Or if you are serious, I invite you to go around pulling people over on the highway, demanding to see their identification. And certainly asking people whose looks/demeanor you don't like, to account for their presence, and justify themselves.

Not that Zimmerman did any of that, btw. He simply shadowed Martin. Which would piss off any person.

But keep obfuscating. You're certainly not alone in doing so.

Fen said...

As Sir Robert Peel wrote (perhaps apocrophally): Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

Thanks Kirk.

Blue@9 said...

Racial profiling here is a handicap. Doing it here is silly.

Sorry, tradguy, but I find you extremely unbelievable here. If you're walking down a sketchy street at night, do you not racially profile, or not profile at all? Here's a list of people you might hypothetically walk past on that hypothetical dark, sketchy street:

1) Old black lady with shopping bags
2) Young black kid in black hoody
3) Young Asian kid with pocket protector
4) Middle-aged white woman with kids
5) White man in leather jacket with angular face tattoos.

Which ones might compel you to cross the street? I have no problem answering these questions. I don't profile just by race, but race is certainly a component. If you don't do that, you're a dumbass who has no business living in a city.

Fen said...

traditionalguy: Pogo...You are not a racist. That is a southerner's job.

Nice. More accusations of bigotry using bigoted stereotypes of the south.

Its how I know the Left really doesn't believe their own bullshit about racism. If they truly did, they wouldn't have these huge blind spots.

Fen said...

1) Keeping tabs on suspicious person until police arrive = wrong

2) Wandering around in the rain at night and casing houses = nothing wrong.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Since this thread has now devolved into an endless loop....let me jump in before the next topic distraction.

ABORTION!!

Pogo said...

I sincerely hope Jesus won't punch me in the nose and bang my head on the sidewalk, Trad guy.

walter said...

Seems there is never much discussion about the demeanor of Martin as Z called 911. When it's "effing cold" and raining, most would be pretty intent on getting from A to B in a deliberate manner. In that context, lingering between houses, "looking about" would seem to most to be suspect in an area having crime issues. And I believe info came out that the previous reports of crime there were by black males...adding to the suspicious scenario. So yeah.."profiling". And if Z felt those perpetrating the crimes were "getting away", certainly conceivable he approached when it may have been better to let it go. If Z did approach M, everything depends on what was said and whether/how someone escalated it to physical. The account by M's girlfriend is not very enlightening regarding that moment.
Even Martin's mom seems to understand that at some level. But that doesn't mate well with "blacks are under attack!"

traditionalguy said...

@Blue@9...Granted we all profile based on danger markers. Those are usually facial expressions.

Some Indians, all of the Crazy Packistanies, and most of the Chinese are smart but most despise the culture here and are only out for money by legal methods.

Remember it is mostly black on black crime that the statistics are measuring.

The black teens do not scare me, Although they could out run me, and have since I first played basketball with them at age 17.

Herman Cain doesn't scare me.

Do I need to be re-indoctrinated? I hear that there is a guy in Norway who has it all figured out and he dressed like a policeman and took his gun to town.

Bruce Hayden said...

Which ones might compel you to cross the street? I have no problem answering these questions. I don't profile just by race, but race is certainly a component. If you don't do that, you're a dumbass who has no business living in a city.

Except that Martin was not a young black kid, but a tall, maybe large, black late adolescent, right into the high point in terms of crime in terms of age (17-23 or so) for guys. Also, hoodie was apparently gray, not black, and Martin had a gold grill, and, I think, tats (though they wouldn't show when he was wearing his hoodie). At the time of his death, Martin was 4-6 inches taller than Zimmerman, possibly as heavy, if not heavier, and likely in far better shape, having apparently played high school athletics.

Of course Zimmerman was profiling. We all do, day in and day out. Cops do it routinely, and one of the reasons that the TSA does such a horrible job is that they are essentially forbidden from profiling. Profiling is just part of stereotyping, and we do it automatically, day in and day out.

We do it because we need to filter out much of the information that is streaming into our senses in the course of moving about our daily lives. It is a survival mechanism, and part of what may make Aspergers, and maybe autism, so hard for people to handle, with this filtering mechanism appearing not to be fully functional, resulting in sensory overload.

Most of the time, we just walk to the other side of the street, or lock our doors, when our profile-meter says "watch out for this dude". Zimmerman, being Neighborhood Watch, called the cops instead. That is what they do. What they are there for.

Absent race, Martin no doubt looked and acted extremely suspicious, esp. in view of the recent burglaries. This wasn't him being surveiled because he was black, but because he looked like a punk young adult intent on casing the area for burglary. Nothing he did or was doing negated that impression that he would have been giving to all those watching him that night. He probably only made himself look more suspicious when he apparently verbally confronted Zimmerman.

What would those claiming "profiling" expect everyone else to do? Say, oh, well, he is black, so despite everything else making him look suspicious, we are supposed to ignore his suspicious behavior just because of the color of his skin?

Only politically correct fools would do that.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Granted we all profile based on danger markers.

Of course we do. It is a survival instinct. If you don't have it you end up dead.

Those are usually facial expressions.

Not necessarily.

I profile people well before I can see their faces.

1. Are you acting normal. Walking normally :or trying to hide and look sneaky or aggressively swaggering in my direction. Walking upright looking ahead or shoulders hunched and crouching towards me.
2. Are you where most people would be. Walking down the sidewalk. Or are you lurking in the shadows.
3. Are you paying a lot of attention to me. Looking furtively in my direction and if I see you attempt to sidle off.
4. What are you carrying in your hands. Are your hands in your pockets or swinging naturally at your sides.
5. What are you wearing. Basic clothing or items that proclaim you are in a gang or wannabe in a gang?

All of this is well before I see your facial expressions or even am able to discern your 'race'. Because your face and your race don't mean nearly as much as the first impressions.

I don't have to get up and personal to count the stripes on the tiger to not recognize that it is actually a tiger from a distance.

If it turns out to NOT be a tiger...well so....I guess I'm just cautious.

Why is everything racial to liberals?

Kirk Parker said...

harrogate,

"I invite you to go around pulling people over on the highway"

Now look who's being disingenuous!

Bruce Hayden said...

If Z did approach M, everything depends on what was said and whether/how someone escalated it to physical. The account by M's girlfriend is not very enlightening regarding that moment.

Even Martin's mom seems to understand that at some level. But that doesn't mate well with "blacks are under attack!"


This is part of what the special prosecutor tried to skip over with her formal Information charging Zimmerman with 2nd Degree Murder. A fight ensued? Ok, who swung first? And, if it was Zimmerman (which Corey avoided stating), was he justified, fearing being assaulted by the much taller, and maybe heavier, Martin? And, some other things that she did not address were Zimmerman's claims that he feared for his life and that there was a struggle for the gun. Instead, she jumped from "Zimmerman was profiling" to "confrontation" to "struggle ensued" to "Zimmerman shot Martin".

What was said was essentially irrelevant. Zimmerman could have called Martin a stupid N-word gang banger wannabe, and Martin could not legally take a swing at Zimmerman, and visa versa - Martin could have called Zimmerman an overweight loser wetback, and Zimmerman could not legally swing at, or shoot, Martin. Name calling is almost never provocation for assault. Indeed, there is little that can be said verbally that would be.

That said, words could have some impact on the confrontation. If Martin, while beating Zimmerman's head against the pavement, had said that he was going to kill him, that might raise the physical confrontation to the level where Zimmerman might have had a reasonable fear of imminent death or major bodily harm, thus justifying the use of deadly force in self-defense. But, for words to work as justifying assault, they mostly have to communicate imminent physical harm.

traditionalguy said...

Seriously we are approaching an understanding here:

1)We cannot trust men because of their skin color.

2)But we cannot distrust men because of their skin color.

We are entering into "I Have s Dream Speech" territory. That was a speech given by another Atlantan.

I believe that insane fool wanted God's children to be judged on the content of their characters. Can you imagine that?

Bruce Hayden said...

Only politically correct fools would do that.

This sounds a bit harsh, but I think it is realistic. As DBQ, etc., have pointed out, profiling is a survival trait. Failure to do so is a non-survival trait. Those who cannot do so, or will not do so, are much more likely to be injured or die as a result. That is why I used the word "fools".

Saint Croix said...

Ah it seems the whole blog is a stage with all of us playing judge and jury. Temperance and forgiveness is a personal virtue expressed by Martin's mother, but will have no influence on the role of justice in this case. Until the trial, all that seems to be disclosed is our own bias.

R/V with the win.

walter said...

"for words to work as justifying assault, they mostly have to communicate imminent physical harm."

That's what I was talking about. But it goes both ways. Z could have said something or gestured to M to suggest threat as opposed to question or insult. The only potential witness to the escalation is the girlfriend. And what's been released of her account is slim.

Scott M said...

Those who cannot do so, or will not do so, are much more likely to be injured or die as a result.

This is more of that "bad luck" Heinlein warned us about.

walter said...

Yes tradguy,
How long before the MLK in a hoodie T-shirt?

Bruce Hayden said...

Seriously we are approaching an understanding here:
1)We cannot trust men because of their skin color.
2)But we cannot distrust men because of their skin color.


No, we don't trust young men like Martin because they are mostly unsocialized punks, who statistically cause a large percentage of the crime in this country, and an even higher percentage of the homicides. There is no evidence whatsoever that he did anything to minimize this impression that he gave everyone he met, black or white. And, everything to indicate that he was trying to maximize this impression, ranging from his hoodie, to his gold grill, tats (?), his tweets, etc. Plus appearing to case the houses in the neighborhood (and, yes, there may be a more benign explanation for his actions, but we are talking impressions here).

Bruce Hayden said...

That's what I was talking about. But it goes both ways. Z could have said something or gestured to M to suggest threat as opposed to question or insult. The only potential witness to the escalation is the girlfriend. And what's been released of her account is slim.

Agreed. What is important are reasonably credible threats. But keep in mind that Martin was most likely much more intimidating that Zimmerman. 4-6 inches taller, quite possibly as heavy, and likely in much better shape. And, apparently, according to his tweets, age, etc., much more into physical intimidation and confrontations. Not definitive, I know. We just don't know.

But GF is unlikely to have heard a threat from either. And, by now, if she all of a sudden remembers hearing Zimmerman threatening Martin with his gun, it is going to be quite suspect, since by all indications, she hasn't done so already.

Also, her testimony so far is far less helpful to the prosecution than is believed by many. In court, she won't be able to testify that she heard Zimmerman hit Martin, or that Martin was knocked down. All she will be able to testify to are the words and the sounds she heard. Nothing more. She wasn't there, and has no first hand knowledge of who hit whom. Rather, any thing more, the statements about who hit whom, etc. are conclusory and not admissible.

walter said...

"she won't be able to testify that she heard Zimmerman hit Martin, or that Martin was knocked down. All she will be able to testify to are the words and the sounds she heard. "

But that alone contradicts Z's statement that he never confronted M.

David said...

The woman lost her son. She may have been a great mother. She may have been terrible. If she is like most parents, she is somewhere in between.

So now she's on a "stage?" Unfortunately the description is accurate. It's a stage for which she is totally unprepared. Her own emotions and confusion over the loss and the unfamiliarity of having to organize her thoughts and parse her words with particular care are going to lead her to statements that are easy (and perhaps appropriate) to criticize. More importantly, the urgings of others, many of whom do not have her interests at heart, are going to influence her.

She is being exploited and abused. The worst part is that it's terribly difficult for her to tell the exploiters and abusers from those who might actually wish to help her.

One hint is that media types are all exploiters and abusers. It is inherent in their job.

Shanna said...

Pogo said...
I sincerely hope Jesus won't punch me in the nose and bang my head on the sidewalk, Trad guy.


Lol @ pogo.

Those who cannot do so, or will not do so, are much more likely to be injured or die as a result.

This is more of that "bad luck" Heinlein warned us about.


Indeed. One of the bad things about the pc world is that it tries to get us to feel bad about doing perfectly reasonable threat assessments throughout our daily lives, which as DBQ mentions, is something our ancestors have been doing forever. If you don't develop some skill at assessing risk, you will never make it through life. Race is a teeny part of that assessment, generally. Body language and context are very important (facial expression is part as well, but certainly not the only thing). What people are wearing can be important, but also can be deceiving so we have to rely on it in context.

holdfast said...

"Not that Zimmerman did any of that, btw. He simply shadowed Martin. Which would piss off any person. "

There are many things that may piss off many people. Pray tell, what crime does "shadowing" constitute?

harrogate said...

Kirk Parker,

Note that comment came with the rider that you were actually serious. Which of course you weren't. it sounded cute to pretend to be a literal communitarian for a sec, I know.

But chances are high that if you and noticed someone "casing" you (since several people around here have taken a seeming liking to that word, heh) while you were out in public, your first thought would not be: gee, how can I minimize the impression that I am a threat. How can I justify my being out at night? oh how can I make this person trust me!! you would probably not even think, whatever, it's just some guy, maybe he's a "concerned citizen," "maybe he's a weirdo," but whatevs. Chances are high that like most rational people you would see Z's behavior as Itself Threatening (gasp!), or asinin, or (more likely) both.

Do these obvious truths justify M attacking Z while Z was walking away if--and that's only one of several possible ifs!--that's what happened? No.

But it's gotten more than a little pathetic, the ways in which you and others here are bending things to make it look like Zimmerman has NO culpability in Martin's death. Whether or not in the end Z was defending himself, his skirts in all of this are hardly clean. Only an intellectually dishonest person obsessed with differing from "the Left" would think otherwise.

Why don't you go police somebody now?

RonF said...

He was being profiled as a punk teenage burglar wearing a hoodie as black teens often do.

traditionalguy - prove it. On what basis can you show that George decided that there was a problem with Trayvon based on his skin color?

harrogate said...

holdfast,


I NEVER said it was a crime to shadow someone. Or if it is, I'm not aware of the law. Although I suppose there is a way of looking at it that makes it threatening under the law. I can imagine a scenario in which someone pulled out a gun and confronted another somebody who had shadowed them for a couple of blocks, say. And then "things get out of control," and then Althouse commenters are arguing that dude oughtn't have been shadowing the cc hero. Can't you imagine this at all?


Be that as it may, I am definitely saying that when you do that, when you decide you don't like the looks of someone and you take it upon yourself to follow them, don't be fucking surprised if it gets you confronted. Or gets you your ass kicked. or gets you killed. or, yes, turns you into a killer of man yourself.

Michael said...

TradGuy: You will appreciate this one. A liberal friend of mine was in Atlanta on business and happened to stay at the 12 Hotel at Atlantic Station. I had breakfast with him the morning after his arrival in town. The night before he had wandered through the Atlantic Station. He was a combination of baffled and fearful. Is there a convention in town, he ventured? Not that I know of, I answered. There were, er, a whole lot of African Americans around last night.

When you are in the racial minority in a city you fail to notice what a limo liberal from up north will see. There are black people crawling all over the goddamn place!!

William said...

Under what conditions is it possible to eyeball a young black male who is not actively engaging in a crime? Is just doing this a racial provocation? It looks like a monotonous neighborhood that would be easy for a stranger to get lost in. There might very well be an innocent explanation for Trayvon's indecisive steps. But by the same token there is an innocent explanation for Zimmerman's cloe survelliance.....I'll grant that Trayvon was not any kind of burglar or thug. Why cannot others grant that Zimmerman was not, in fact, a racist or vigilante. He was undoubtedly too zealous, but that doesn't make him the evil ogre that we see presented on the media.....If Zimmerman had a record of bullying or racist behavior, you can bet all his victims would have submitted to three part CNN interviews by now. It really looks to me that Zimmerman is the one being profiled and stereotyped.

harrogate said...

BTW, Fen, you wrote:

"Of course not. If you were to talk about self-defense, you'd be forced to face the fact that Martin doubled back to confront Zimmerman and then assaulted him. Not very good for your 'Zimmerman caused this' meme."

IS that an established fact now? I confess I haven't followed every twist and turn.

traditionalguy said...

@ William... I agree that Zimmerman is being profiled too. That old booking photo has become his image, and his eyes in that photo make him look like a snake.

The only solution is now underway, which is a trial within the formerly missing Florida Justice system.

And that is all that the the kind Mrs Martin ever said that she wanted.

As to profilig the hoodie man, I believe the audio tapes have Zimmerman saying these these types are always getting away with something.

That is what all people say about burglars. You wake up or come home and they have gotten away with your private possessions, which leaves normal people with a large dose of hatred and revenge ready to explode, only awaiting the day they can catch one in the act and bury him under the jail...or just bury him.

Kirk Parker said...

harrogate,

Actually, I am completely and totally serious in thinking that Leave It To The Pros™ is both a bad thing in its effects, and completely un-American to boot.

harrogate said...

Kirk,

Heh, well, we have already established that you are an adherent to Leave it To The Pros on some matters, such as the enforcement of speeding. But I kid.

But seriously. It sounds like in this particular case, many are embracing a model where, if I'm out, and someone--anyone at all-= distrusts my "gait" and feels compelled to follow me and keep tabs, that they are acting as model citizens. That I not only have nothing to complain of. And that if a confrontation ensues over my being followed, say I even start some actual punch-throwing shit over it (which some here assert as a FACT of what happened--is that your position as well?) the end result of which is that I get shot, then it is my fault.

OK, whatever, but Jesus fucking Christ. It's annoying enough that cops have the right to scope me out and/or tail me on the basis of nothing more than a "hunch" and there's nothing I can do about it. I guess I didn't know that so many freedom loving Patriotic Conservatives were willing to extend that power so ubiquitously.

Although again, I wonder if some of you would feel differently if it were You, Mr. Law Abiding "What Me? Why Would Anyone Tail ME?", being followed.

harrogate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bruce Hayden said...

.I'll grant that Trayvon was not any kind of burglar or thug.

We actually don't know that. He was caught with engagement rings that he couldn't account for, as well as pot. And, he had to pay for that gold grill somehow.

Which is to say that he may have been a burglar, or he may not have been. Some indicia in favor of such, none that I am aware of against, be normally give people the benefit of the doubt. We frankly don't know - but the police might.

Bruce Hayden said...

As for being a thug, Martin sure seemed to want to portray himself as such with his tweats. Of course, with a 17 year old, that is as likely to be pure bluster. Again, we don't know.

William said...

I think Trayvon's skin color may have been a factor in Zimmerman's decision to follow him. However, I don't think this type of profiling rises to a level that can fairly be called bigotry. Other parts of Trayvon's behavior may have been as much a part of Zimmerman's decision as his skin color....About the confrontation, we will never know Trayvon's side of the story. Zimmerman's story is plausible, but also extremely self serving. I'm guessing the physical evidence and witnesses are supportive of his defense or, otherwise, the DA would have offered it up. Ballistics can determine the range from which the pistol was fired. If it was from a distance, then Zimmerman is a liar. If at point blank range, it is consistent with Zimmerman's story. Likewise, if it can be established that Trayvon was on top, then that further corroborates Zimmerman's story.....It's depressing to note the number of otherwise sane and reasonable people who feel it necessary to demonize one party in order to exonerate the other.....This sounds like one of those inevitable collisons when young men with too much velocity and too little mass circulate in the night. If Zimmerman was over zealous in getting out of his car, the same can be said of Trayvon for confronting Zimmerman instead of just going home......If the moral here is that people on neighborhood watch are a bunch of vigilantes and that the best way of handling obtrusive eyeballing is by punching out the eyeballer, then the wrong moral is being drawn.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

One last thing that no one has had the balls so far to say.

A mother knows her own son. You know if your child is an angel or a demon or more often something in between.

If she thinks that it was "an accident" then it seems that there is more back story that the mother knows, doesn't want to tell and would like to have the whole thing die down.

Perhaps we should acknowledge that sometimes Mother does know best and let it all rest. Let it be....let it be.

traditionalguy said...

What William said at 9:11.

He writes without passion and has a judicial temperament.

I admire him for that. My style tends to advocasy which never gives an opponent's argument any help.

William said...

Thanks for the compliment. I'm not often praised for my judicial temperment. In contexts other than Trayvon Martin, I admire your courtly manners and the generosity of your insights. I expect that this is not the first complment you have received for those attributes. That's why your judgement of Zimmerman seems so mean spirited and wrong.

Fen said...

William said: I think Trayvon's skin color may have been a factor in Zimmerman's decision to follow him.

The 911 text indicates Zimmerman was not sure if Martin was black.

Dispatcher: “OK, and this guy – is he black, white, or Hispanic?”

Zimmerman: “He looks black.” [emph added]


ie. Zimmerman is not certain that Martin is black. So, not indicative of someone who's suspicious because of skin color.

Fen said...

harrogate: a model where, if I'm out, and someone distrusts my "gait" and feels compelled to follow me and keep tabs, that they are acting as model citizens. ...And that if a confrontation ensues over my being followed, say I even start some actual punch-throwing shit over it ...the end result of which is that I get shot, then it is my fault.

Close.

If you add to your "punch-throwing" that you placed your victim in *reasonable* fear for his life or great bodily harm (like repeatedly bashing his head against concrete)... then yes, its all your fault.

I advise you rethink your protocols for dealing with people who are watching you too closely. If you encounter someone like me in the streets and react the way you describe here, you will be shot dead.

Fen said...

"If You See Something, Say Something.[tm] Report suspicious activity to police or call 911"

Look, its even trademarked.

"The If You See Something, Say SomethingTM” campaign across the United States encourages all citizens to be vigilant for indicators of potential terrorist activity"

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/ntas/ntas-public-guide.pdf

harrogate said...

Fen,

You keep swinging for the fences but making no contact at all. Like a parody straight out of Moneyball.

Fen said...

How is it swinging for the fences?

I'm just pointing out that your own government is encouraging its people "to be vigilant for indicators of potential terrorist activity".

So slamming Zimmerman for keeping tabs on a suspicious character is kinda silly.

Are you "vigilant for potential terrorist activity" ? If so, it seems you have a double standard.

Fen said...

But I'll consider your lack of any rebuttal other than ad hom to mean that you surrender the point.

Thanks.

harrogate said...

Fen,

You haven't been having the discussion in good faith. Like so many around here, the goal seems less bent towards discussion than in service of showing how everything fits into the rightness and all-applicability of your ideology.

Thus it becomes a FACT that Z was nothing but an innocent victim (an anti-terrorist warrior now, to boot?) and certainly has ZERO moral or legal culpability at all in Martin's death--hell, M might as well had committed suicide, it's all proven, and the fact that there is any kind of investigation at all only reflects Leftist corruption. investigate.

What a beautiful little world you, Althouse, and so many others around this blog, live in.

Fen said...

harrogate: FACT that Z was nothing but an innocent victim (an anti-terrorist warrior now, to boot?) and certainly has ZERO moral or legal culpability at all in Martin's death--hell, M might as well had committed suicide, it's all proven, and the fact that there is any kind of investigation at all only reflects Leftist corruption. investigate.

By George! I think he's finally got it!

harrogate said...

Yes, I do have it. You have revealed yourself to be little more than a straight ideologue, with your own words, by your own account. My condolences to those who actually have to deal with you in real space and time.

Kirk Parker said...

harrogate,

I defy you to find anywhere that I've posted on Z's guilt or innocence; the most I'll say in that regard is that based on what information is publicly available Murder 2 seems quite a stretch, but that's an issue for the judge and (if it gets that far) jury to sort out.

My interest all along as been in pushing back against the cower-in-your-own-community folks (perhaps including yourself) who started out making a big deal about Z. "disobeying" the "orders" of the 911 dispatcher, saying that Neighborhood Watch folks shouldn't be armed for their own protection if they so choose, and the like.

harrogate said...

Kirk,

Please note that I did not say or suggest that YOU "posted on Z's guilt or innocence." You might be confusing my responses to Fen with responses to you.

You also write, "the most I'll say in that regard is that based on what information is publicly available Murder 2 seems quite a stretch, but that's an issue for the judge and (if it gets that far) jury to sort out." That is not terribly distant, if at all, from my own take on the matter.

For I would hope that You have ALSO noticed that I have ventured nothing on Z's guilt or innocence. My post on this issue, which you engaged far more directly thany anyone else on the thread, has to do with my thoughts on Z's tailing M in the first place. When I wrote:

"It's annoying enough that cops have the right to scope me out and/or tail me on the basis of nothing more than a "hunch" and there's nothing I can do about it. I guess I didn't know that so many freedom loving Patriotic Conservatives were willing to extend that power so ubiquitously"---

I was in large part responding to you.

Kirk Parker said...

harrogate,

My point in turn (which I may very well have not made ably) is that in America at least the ability of the police to tail you or me derives from the power any concerned citizen has to be suspicious of you or me, it's not a top-down grant of power from The Sovereign.

harrogate said...

Kirk,

Sure, absolutely. Any citizen has the right to be suspicious of you or me. What they are able to DO about that suspicion, however, differs in kind from what the police may do. If YOU don't like how I am walking and tell me to stop and give an account of myself, and I ignore your nosy ass and keep walking, I have broken no law. You, however, have made an ass of yourself (which was and is my main point about Zimmerman based on what we already know, regardless of whether the Murder 2 charge, some lesser charge, or none at all applies).

We the People invest the police with rights and responsibilities that we do not ourselves assume. Yes? Else why do they get their own stations, vehicles, guns, and ugly-ass uniforms?

How far apart do you think we really are in this discussion, Kirk?

Kirk Parker said...

How far apart are we? I don't know, you tell me:

"If YOU don't like how I am walking and tell me to stop and give an account of myself, and I ignore your nosy ass and keep walking, I have broken no law."

That's actually true of the police, too (at least here in WA) if they don't have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion that a crime has been committed or is underway.

harrogate said...

"That's actually true of the police, too (at least here in WA) if they don't have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion that a crime has been committed or is underway."

Technically, yes. Although as most all young men know, or find out soon enough if they don't know, if you ignore, snub, or otherwise "disrespect" a police officer, things will end badly for you.

This is, I suspect from the general tenor of your posts, a truth that you dislike, as it elevates the policeman to some version of Emmissary of the Sovereign.


Well, to paraphrase one of me favorite poets: I, too, dislike it.

The truth is, if he wants to a cop on the street can fuck with you and there is precious little you can do about it. And all too often they take advantage of this, by my lights. But I do not forsee a future where police officers treat young men on the street (especially at night) with respect, or as peers. I'd rather not see a trend where more and more people assume thayt kind of sanctioned power relation towards one another.

Kirk Parker said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kirk Parker said...

harrogate,

Time to end our private, very-off-topic conversation, I suppose. :-)

I'll just end with saying that being peripherally involved in the open-carry movement has given a very interesting perspective on this last issue, including noticing more than one 5+-figure settlement against police departments and their municipalities for excessive force, false arrest, etc (which were completely ignored by the national press.) So it's not like the (hopefully rare) abusers of their authority never get called on it.