December 21, 2011

$250,000 in government subsidy for every Volt sold.

Incredible.

96 comments:

Pogo said...

But health care will be cheaper.

Promise.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)



And cheap at TWICE the price babee! Union Labour and Green Policies, you bitter Clinger Sorts wouldn’t understand, being so intent on thumping your Bibles, polishing your *ahem* gunz an’ destroying Teachers Unions and just all-around supporting Fascism…But Obama sees and knows what this country needs…a good $250,000 car.
Smurf-tards Attack…Wiccans all of you.

bgates said...

But if McCain had been elected, the subsidy would have been $275,000.

Sorun said...

It's almost like they build them for the DoD.

Anyway, keep government's spending efficiency in mind when politicians call for tax increases.

Michael said...

"Green" technologies are not yet scalable. This administration fails to understand that the private sector has been at this for thirty years, working feverishly to develop batteries that can hold charges for extended periods, periods long enough to justify use in automobiles. The company or group that succeeds will be far richer than GM was when it was solvent. The problem is not that people don't want these technologies, that money isn't available to try to develop them, or that people aren't devoted to finding solutions that will make them wealthy. The problem is that we are not yet there. This is/was highly predictable.

Oh, and the worst of all is that for a quarter of a million dollars you get a car that is crap, that won't get you reliably across town and back.

Original Mike said...

A car for idiots

Scott M said...

This is/was highly predictable.

So it the environmental impact of replacing most of the IC engines on the road today with battery-driven electric cars. Cars that most likely will need to swap batteries a few times during their usable lifetimes.

Mountains of batteries.

Original Mike said...

"This administration fails to understand that the private sector has been at this for thirty years"

But they are smarter.

fivewheels said...

People who were impatient with the continuing war effort often would suggest that we simply "declare victory and exit." Can we please just declare the world saved and halt government expenditures in that direction?

It would be hard to argue against the declaration. After all, the world is right here, doing fine.

Pogo said...

It's all worth it when you think of the stranded polar bears on Arctic ice floes.

Every. Penny.

Original Mike said...

"After all, the world is right here, doing fine."

But it's about to collapse. Any second now.

Michael said...

ScottM: Correct. Plus, no one ever calculates the environmental cost of producing a new car, a calculation that would include the continued existence of the car it is replacing. Amortizing these environmental costs would take a long, long time.

Having written that, I am enjoying a new purchase, a VW Toureg propelled by diesel fuel. 600 plus miles to the tank. A vehicle that will outlive me.

Dose of Sanity said...

This is silly. Sometimes we need subsidies to stimulate research and development (you know, like the R&D credit), but it's too much.

As an aside, I note some sarcasm at the threat the globe faces...do we really have so many frogs in the water here at Althouse?

Ralph L said...

It was part of the deal in the 2007 energy bill. The car manufacturers had to meet significantly higher CAFE averages, and the government would provide $25 billion in subsidies for new technology. That way, they don't have to take responsibility for raising fuel prices like the Europeans do with taxes.

The open question is: will people buy the cars without $5 gas?

Scott M said...

As an aside, I note some sarcasm at the threat the globe faces...do we really have so many frogs in the water here at Althouse?

Someone leaked some emails to us frogs that the cooks were sending to each other suggesting that the burner is not only NOT getting slowly ratcheted up, but that the damned stove isn't even hooked to the wall.

Freeman Hunt said...

A $290,000 car? Must be luxe.

fivewheels said...

If it makes you feel better, you can choose to interpret it as the real-world view that government efforts to save the planet are likely to be as productive and efficient as previous government efforts to fight poverty and improve education. At least a 50-50 chance of making any problems worse.

Original Mike said...

"Mountains of batteries."

I've worried about this from Day One. Where can we read the environmental impact statements for the electric car? Would make for fascinating reading.

Original Mike said...

"A $290,000 car? Must be luxe."

Nah, it doesn't even have heated seats. In fact, if you want to get to the grocery store (and back), they suggest you don't turn on the heater.

Dose of Sanity said...

@ Scott - You should really read those emails, or look at the data, or the fact that the top counter-global-warming scientist recently admitted its true.

It's a complicated subject, but worth looking into before dismissing based on a news story of a few emails.

Scott M said...

It's a complicated subject, but worth looking into before dismissing based on a news story of a few emails.

Paraphrasing Insta's often-used reposte: I'll start worry about it when the die-hard advocates for AGW start acting like it in their personal choices.

Paul Zrimsek said...

As someone or other said quite recently, "the real objective is to put public money into private pockets."

BarryD said...

Incredible?

Since the word means "not believable" I would beg to differ. I expected as much.

I'm surprised the number wasn't higher. Perhaps when a lot of Volts are returned to GM out of fear that they'll explode, it will be.

Dose of Sanity said...

I think those are two false choices.

It's clear this is a "tragedy of the commons" situation which requires public effort and regulation in order to shift individual incentives. Looking to individual actors in a public system is simply an unworkable model. (For even if they do, it will have little to no effect, further reducing their incentive)

Secondly (not your point, but the other guys), it's not some conspiracy to put money in the private people's pockets. That is a side effect of any spending - there is always the possiblity for corruption, bloat and waste. This does not make the cause any less necessary or urgent.

Pogo said...

Medicine is going to make some State cronies very very rich, even while care becomes rationed, at least for us proles.

I need to become a crony to leftists.

Where do I apply?

Original Mike said...

"It's clear this is a "tragedy of the commons" situation which requires public effort and regulation in order to shift individual incentives."

Not clear to me. When gasoline prices force the issue, private markets will deliver alternatives pronto. Until that time, you're throwing money down a rat hole.

Scott M said...

Looking to individual actors in a public system is simply an unworkable model.

Plenty of human nature falls under the unworkable model category. If you want to inspire multitudes of people to do something, don't yourself flaunt the goals of that something by engaging in ridiculous levels of the opposite.

I possibly not bright enough to understand all of the high-forehead stuff, but I DO understand that there are significant reservations. Urgent is not how my lowly intellect would describe the situation in question.

Urgent is how I would describe a myriad of other far more pressing issues.

BarryD said...

Paul FTW: "the real objective is to put public money into private pockets."

That's about all there is to say.

Ralph L said...

As an aside, I note some sarcasm at the threat the globe faces
Most of the Western world and Japan will be in electric wheelchairs soon. If you're worried about CO2, start mass-murdering Asians (without using nukes, of course). Or perhaps they'll do it for you.

Tim said...

"I need to become a crony to leftists.

Where do I apply?"


Well now, EVERYONE knows one's application is submitted with bundled contributions to the Democratic National Committee and to Obama for America.

The best part?

The greater the bundled contribution, the less time you need to spend on the application.

Original Mike said...

"without using nukes, of course"

What does a nudet do to atmospheric CO2? Maybe it burns it up.

Jay said...

Yeah, this subsidy is so shocking considering:

Solar Millennium is considered a concentrating solar power pioneer. The news of Solar Millennium's financial woes is the latest event in a wrenching industry shakeout that has caused bankruptcies at a number of companies and depressed earnings of remaining solar manufacturers.

BP Solar this week announced it is exiting the solar business after 40 years and Solon, another German solar company, last week announced it is insolvent.


Oh well, just another $2.1 billion (a $2.1 billion stimulus grant to a German firm, Solar Millennium and its U.S. subsidiary, Solar rust of America) down the drain.

Jay said...

Dose of Sanity said...

As an aside, I note some sarcasm at the threat the globe faces...do we really have so many frogs in the water here at Althouse


Which "threat" would that be?

Because the globe isn't warming, there is no evidence it is warming, and it certainly isn't warming because of any activities man is engaging in (there is no evidence of that either).

So carry on now.

EDH said...

Dose of Sanity said...
I think those are two false choices.

I think you need to "up your dosage."

Obama: Well, we’re not done yet. I’ve got five more years of stuff to do. But not only saving this country from a great depression. Not only saving the auto industry. But putting in place a system in which we’re gonna start lowering health care costs and you’re never gonna go bankrupt because you get sick or somebody in your family gets sick. Making sure that we have reformed the financial system, so we never again have taxpayer-funded bailouts, and the system is more stable and secure. Making sure that we’ve got millions of kids out here who are able to go to college because we’ve expanded student loans and made college more affordable.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

Proof that the government as currently constructed could fu_k up a wet dream in short order.

What Pogo said.

Bwahahahaha!!!

Tim said...

"Looking to individual actors in a public system is simply an unworkable model. (For even if they do, it will have little to no effect, further reducing their incentive)"

Nice "tragedy of commons" dodge. Leading by example, to highlight the "crisis," would serve their cause well. We don't give a pass to political and opinion leaders on graft, corruption, rape (oh, except maybe Billy Clinton...) and murder on the basis "it will have little to no effect," statistically speaking.

The fact they don't, and continue to insist on maintaining their exceptionally large lives, with massive "carbon footprints," suggests that either they are pimping lies (for whatever purpose, the obvious purpose being the most likely), or simply think they are above the rules us common folk and rubes must follow.

Neither works if you're asking or demanding people to impoverish themselves to "save the planet."

You all need a better playbook...

Jay said...

Dose of Sanity said...

Secondly (not your point, but the other guys), it's not some conspiracy to put money in the private people's pockets


Really?

Because you say so?

Because it is kind of odd that these multi-billion dollar stimulus grants keep going to Obama bundlers.


For example: $510 million in stimulus loans and grants to green-tech companies in a portfolio owned by Steve Westly. Westly is a campaign money-bundler who reportedly raised over $500,000 for the president’s campaign

For example:
Firms associated with venture capitalist John Doerr have received over half a billion in grants and loans related to green technologies. Doerr and his wife have donated about $800,000 to Democrats since 2000

For Example:
A $584,000 stimulus tax credit granted to Serious Materials, a small window manufacturing company. Robin Roy, a Serious executive, is married to Cathy Zoi, a former assistant secretary for the Energy Department’s office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE) which was responsible for $16 billion in stimulus money. She was nominated for the position by the Obama administration.

Are you suggesting this is just a coincidence?

DaveW said...

This is why we're borrowing trillions. To subsidize crap like this. It's insane.

Jay said...

Dose of Sanity said...
It's clear this is a "tragedy of the commons" situation which requires public effort and regulation in order to shift individual incentives.


Um, no thanks.

You know who likes to shift individual incentives with the force of government consistently throughout human history?

Every dictator who ever lived.

You got some company there, pal.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

"It's clear this is a "tragedy of the commons" situation which requires public effort and regulation in order to shift individual incentives."

Um, no.

Emergency crews know instinctively not to throw gas on a raging fire.

More regulation just leads to more crony capitalism.

Original Mike said...

@DaveW: Good point.

Adding insult to injury; Not only is it wasted money, it's wasted borrowed money. {hangs head in dispair}

Don't Tread 2012 said...

"...shift individual incentives ..."

Wasn't it guards, weapons and trains that 'shifted individual incentives' of jews in a certain northern european country about 75 years ago???

garage mahal said...

Wasn't it guards, weapons and trains that 'shifted individual incentives' of jews in a certain northern european country about 75 years ago???

Comment of the year!

Tim said...

Dairy cows (and other livestock) are a leading source of green house gases.

Original Mike said...

Yeah, we should kill all the cows.

edutcher said...

As Pogo notes, it's fascinating how all the swell ideas of our betters keep blowing up.

Be interesting to see how Smart Diplomacy, the Foreign Policy Reset, the Arab Spring, and bugging out of Iraq and A-stan comes back to bite us.

And how fast.

WV "abloodi" (no kidding) And that, too.

Original Mike said...

"it's fascinating how all the swell ideas of our betters keep blowing up."

It's almost like they're not really our betters.

Pogo said...

I need to get me some gubmint money so that I can donate it to the Democrats so I can become a crony and get rich in medicine.

It wouldn't be right to work for the dough. It's gotta come from taxes, to be fair. Then I'll plow it right back to the Democrats by paying off, I mean, helping a lefty get elected.

I think I am learning how to play this game. And how do you like my new motto?

Other People's Money
Get Yours!

Pogo said...

Certainly kill the cows.

Hell, they don't vote and they don't pay taxes.

Waaaaait a minute.

The bovine vote must not be dismissed. Remember, a boy is a pig is a rat is a cow. And cows are really all on welfare, right? A natural Democrat constituent.

They should be able to sign recall petitions as well as the 47 times Garage and Allie did, each. Fair is fair.

Tim said...

"Certainly kill the cows."

Standing rib roast, rib-eyes, porterhouse, new york, tri-tip, london broil, etc., etc., etc. Yummy!

Except, of course, cows are best for burgers.

That works too!

Original Mike said...

Just make your hoof print here, er, ... sir.

garage mahal said...

Pogo
Plenty of gummint money for conservatives too! Heck, the Volt subsidies add up to about 50 electrified Halliburton showers in Afghanistan. We blew through a couple trillion in Iraq/Afghanistan, why didn't you get in on any of that action? Sounds like sour grapes to me. Bootstraps!

Eric said...

"Green" technologies are not yet scalable.

I dunno. Toyota seems to be scaling its hybrids just fine, and in terms of engineering the Volt is really nothing more than a Prius with a bigger battery. It's not even a serial hybrid like they initially promised.

edutcher said...

Original Mike said...

"it's fascinating how all the swell ideas of our betters keep blowing up."

It's almost like they're not really our betters.


You're starting to worry me.

Original Mike said...

"Toyota seems to be scaling its hybrids just fine, and in terms of engineering the Volt is really nothing more than a Prius with a bigger battery."

Oh, yeah. They cheated and put a gasoline engine in it. I forgot.

Two questions:

1) How big is the gas tank?
2) How much government cheese did Toyota get to develop the Prius?

Original Mike said...

"You're starting to worry me."

Oh oh. Better shut down my computer, turn the lights out, and pull the drapes.

Peter said...

"Mountains of batteries."

It's hardly a secret that the batteries are made by LG Chem (also known as Locky GoldStar Chemical), which is the largest Korean manufacturer of chemicals.

Perhaps someone should study whether these batteries can be recycled (or at least returned to their maker).

Otherwise we may actually have "mountains of batteries" to deal with, after their useful lives have ended.

garage mahal said...

Toyota has received a little over a billion USD in federal, state, and local government tax subsidies and incentives

$323.9 million in subsidies for the plant in Tupelo from Mississippi taxpayers.
$371 million in subsidies for the Georgetown plant from Kentucky taxpayers.
$227.5 million in subsidies and tax incentives for the Tundra plant by Local, Texas, and U.S. taxpayers.
$125 million (Canadian) in subsidies to help cover research, training and infrastructure costs.
$29 million in subsidies for the Huntsville Engine plant by Alabama taxpayers

Buyers of hybrid-electric passenger vehicles each received tax credits of $3,150 per vehicle sold in the United States. This amounted to at least $189 million for the 60,000 Toyota Prius cars sold

Wow, guess I won't be buying anything Govermentoyota!

David said...

That is (was) my money they are spending.

Original Mike said...

I don't support any of that crap, garage. You know how much money we could save if we got rid of all the corporate hand outs? But the thing is, we have to get rid of ALL of it. Not just the stuff the current administration, whoever they are, doesn't like so they can give more to the ones they do.

Original Mike said...

Now, most of your list are state and local incentives, which I don't support, but doesn't add (at least directly) to the US debt.

Original Mike said...

"Buyers of hybrid-electric passenger vehicles each received tax credits of $3,150 per vehicle sold in the United States."

This is your side's idea of a good time, not mine.

Eric said...

Oh, yeah. They cheated and put a gasoline engine in it. I forgot.

It's not cheating at all - they never intended for it to be battery only. Batteries don't even begin to approach the energy density of gasoline, so for the time being gas isn't optional if you want more range than just a straight commuter.

As to your questions, I have no idea on either.

Eric said...

Garage, what is a "tax subsidy"? Is it a tax break or is it a subsidy? They're not the same thing.

Original Mike said...

I was joking, Eric, but it does raise a question: What's the difference between a Volt and a Prius?

I like the Prius. Energy recovery makes oodles of sense.

Original Mike said...

"Is it a tax break or is it a subsidy? They're not the same thing."

Seems like the same thing to me.

Eric said...

What's the difference between a Volt and a Prius?

Like I said, in practical terms the big difference is the Volt has a bigger battery. It has a plug so you can charge it externally, so in theory if you just make short trips you can go for months and months without filling up the tank. But if you have to make a long trip it behaves more like a Prius in that the engine will fire up when the battery starts to run low.

Seems like the same thing to me.

Not to me. If they put a Toyota plant down the street and it gets tax breaks my taxes don't change. But if it gets subsidies the money has to come from somewhere - either I pay more taxes or I don't get some service I would have otherwise received.

Original Mike said...

"Like I said, in practical terms the big difference is the Volt has a bigger battery."

Then why the hell are we throwing so much money at them? (Not expecting you to know.)

"If they put a Toyota plant down the street and it gets tax breaks my taxes don't change."

Of course they do. If they're not getting taxes from them, they need to get more from you.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

garage mahal said...

Plenty of gummint money for conservatives too! Heck, the Volt subsidies add up to about 50 electrified Halliburton showers in Afghanistan. We blew through a couple trillion in Iraq/Afghanistan, why didn't you get in on any of that action? Sounds like sour grapes to me. Bootstraps!


Ah, the tu quoque which makes everything better. Trillions in deficit spending is OK because Bush spent billions. Wide Receiver lost a dozen guns in Mexico, so it's peachy for Fast and Furious to lose thousands. garage, you have to do better than the tu quoque. You have to make a case for why it is worthwhile to spend $250,000 for each Volt, but you can't, because dumbass is dumbass.

traditionalguy said...

No wonder the VW executive who knows the truth about the Government Motors Fraud thinks diesel is the only feasible way to go.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...

Toyota has received a little over a billion USD in federal, state, and local government tax subsidies and incentives



Note: Each Chevy Volt sold thus far may have as much as $250,000 in state and federal dollars in incentives behind it – a total of $3 billion altogether

But of course I guess you think you have a point.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...

Plenty of gummint money for conservatives too! Heck, the Volt subsidies add up to about 50 electrified Halliburton showers in Afghanistan. We blew through a couple trillion in Iraq/Afghanistan


Um, I could bog this server down with examples of Democrats saying we need to focus on the war in Afghanistan.

You pretending that the wars that the Democrats voted for, increased funding for every year since they took over Congress, and Obama has sent more troops to are "conservative" shows your aptitude for beclowning.

David said...

And your point, Garage? That we can throw money around to Japanese companies too?

At least the Prius is a decent car.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...

Toyota has received a little over a billion USD in federal, state, and local government tax subsidies and incentives


And of course he goes on to post about a Canadian subsidy.

Too funny.

Original Mike said...

"At least the Prius is a decent car."

We drove a Pruis around the mountains of Norway for a week. Nice car. Great gas mileage. Of course, it can't carry squat, but it has its place. At least you don't have range anxiety (why anyone would buy a car where you have to worry about getting to your destination is beyond me).

Eric said...

Of course they do. If they're not getting taxes from them, they need to get more from you.

Why? The big outlays for local governments are education and health care, which a new plant won't impact. To the extent there are new people in town to work there (assuming that's the case at all) those people are working and will pay enough taxes to cover additional services.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Dairy cows (and other livestock) are a leading source of green house gases.

The number one leading green house gas is water vapor....otherwise known as clouds

Water vapor constitutes Earth's most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect

Water vapor is 99.999% of natural origin. Other atmospheric greenhouse gases, carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), and miscellaneous other gases (CFC's, etc.), are also mostly of natural origin (except for the latter, which is mostly anthropogenic).


I figure I'm doing my part to help the global warming (scam) by NOT buying any new vehicles or any electric or hybrid vehicles. Just look how much I'm saving by recyling and using materials that have already used up their carbon footprint (stupid term) decades ago. 1967 Stepside Chevy FTW!!!

DADvocate said...

No cost is too great to get those union votes.

I'm tempted to say "Shocking!" since it's an electric car. But, I've grown accustomed to such behavior from Obama and the Democrats. It's hard for them to shock me. I'm not sure what they could to to shock me. Act normal, maybe.

Original Mike said...

Presumably, what we are talking about is the forgiveness of property taxes, which in a sane world (yeah, I know) are tied to services.

Original Mike said...

And as far as state corporate taxes, forgiveness to some means higher taxes for the rest. Cut all the tax breaks and lower the rates for everybody.

Original Mike said...

"The number one leading green house gas is water vapor...."

Yeah, but the thing is, absorption at the energies of water vapor is already saturated (at least, that's what I've been told) so it doesn't matter if we add more or less water.

Michael said...

Less than 10,000 volts sold. The Tupelo Toyota plant will produce 140,000 cars per year when production resumes. It was closed when demand slagged, unlike GM 's Volt plant which will increase production to 60,000 cars next year despite the absence of demand. Tupelo's tax incentives are equavalent to 3k per car for one year's production. Nonrecurring. Our subsidy of GM continues apace.

Craig said...

If you pay cash you get a Tesla.

chuckR said...

There is no range anxiety with the Volt. It gets so-so mileage on the gas engine alone.

You should be worried about battery fires in case of an accident. It seems they didn't do a good job of armoring their battery box and they also didn't tell anyone how to earth the thing to dissipate the battery energy. Their current plan is to send a factory rep out to a crashed Volt to safe it.

Government Motors is every bit as efficient as government itself.

Original Mike said...

"There is no range anxiety with the Volt."

I've read more than one story about the author having range anxiety with the car he was test driving. It's why I forgot the Volt had an gas engine. Must have been a different car.

Original Mike said...

I just bought a Toyota Tacoma, a mid-size pick up. I shopped all the brands and there was absolutely no comparison in terms of quality.

Both Ford and Dodge are discontinuing their small pickups in 2012. I asked the Dodge salesman why, and his response was:

"The big truck gets almost the same gas mileage (I didn't check to see if he was right), why would anybody buy the small one?"

My response: "Because it fits in the garage". He grinned and said: "Yeah, we're hearing that a lot."

Craig said...

Paid Move On $50 a year ago to recall the governor. Now that's value.

Blue@9 said...

"What's the difference between a Volt and a Prius?"

The Prius doesn't cost six figures to manufacture. Also, the Prius seems to sell very well, despite its high price. The Volt, not so much.

I love that GM built a compact car for almost $300,000 -- a car for the 1%! #OccupyGM !

At that price GM could have just bought Teslas or Ferraris and sold them for $40k a pop-- they still would have lost far less money!

Tim said...

""Looking to individual actors in a public system is simply an unworkable model. (For even if they do, it will have little to no effect, further reducing their incentive)"

Somebody better tell Sheryl Crow to stop wiping her ass with only one square of toilet paper then. She's wasting her time, seeing how "individual actors in a public system is simply an unworkable model."

geokstr said...

Obama:
"...putting in place a system in which we’re gonna start lowering health care costs and you’re never gonna go bankrupt because you get sick..."

Anybody else remember when, early in the 2008 campaign, it was all over the "unbiased" "objective" "journalistic" "profession" that one of the big indicators that Palin was just stoopid trailer park trash was that she dropped her "g's". How come no one is making that claim about our Dear Leader? He does it as much as she did.

Methadras said...

bgates said...

But if McCain had been elected, the subsidy would have been $275,000.


Proof or shut the fuck up.

AJ Lynch said...

Original Mike said about our brilliant, librul betters:

"It's almost like they're not really our betters."

Heh- I'd say that is the comment of the year!

AJ Lynch said...

Mike:

I have a Nissan Frontier. It's the 2nd one I've owned and it's a great vehicle [knocks wood].

Ford only makes that Explorer Trac and my nephew had that Chevy smaller pickup and he said it was a piece of junk so my only options for a midsize pickup were the Frontier or the Tacoma.

Jay said...

the Tacoma.


I had one of those some years back and absolutely loved it.

Original Mike said...

"...my only options for a midsize pickup were the Frontier or the Tacoma."

I didn't get to really look at the Frontier; they only had one on the lot and it was already sold, with a cover over the bed, and they wouldn't let me inside. It did look like it had potential.

Original Mike said...

"Heh- I'd say that is the comment of the year!"

{blush}