November 1, 2011

"The Greek government was plunged into chaos on Tuesday and faced an imminent collapse..."

"... as lawmakers rebelled against Prime Minister George Papandreou’s surprise call for a popular referendum on a new debt deal with Greece’s foreign lenders."

58 comments:

Scott M said...

Ah, that sweet allure of separate national currencies. What was it someone on another thread said about liberals touching things and turning them to shit?

Moose said...

Occupy a Greek - or: Someone call Titus...

traditionalguy said...

The smell of George Soros in the morning...it's the smell of currency speculators making insider payoffs.

So long EU.

Insufficiently Sensitive said...

Mr. Papandreou is making a foolish attempt to cover his behind - he's asking the electorate to validate the very austerity that the street mobs are rioting against.

They won't approve, of course, because they want a perpetual supply of manna from the EU heaven, such as they've enjoyed since going on the Euro.

But after the Greek government implodes, imagine the hysteria as the unlected European Commissioners try to deal with the default on payments by Greece. Brute reality will finally intrude on the fictions and denials which the EU has been running on for the last year.

It won't be pretty.

James said...

Meanwhile,at least $700 million in customer funds are missing from MF Global. Apparently these funds were illegal commingled with the trading operations and used to bet on European debt.

MF Global was run by Jon Corzine, former CEO of Goldman Sachs, former Democratic Senator from New Jersey, and immediate past Governor of the State of New Jersey.

Pogo said...

At least there is no connection between the collapse and Europe's massive social/state spending.

Because obviously the US government needs to tax much much more and spend much much more to grow the economy.

It's all so simple and clear.

BarryD said...

Interesting.

Of course, there's some logic to the idea of a referendum. If you threaten bankruptcy and manage to get your creditors to take 50 cents on the dollar, you still won't get anyone to lend you anything in the future.

The naked truth is, you might as well just tell them to screw themselves, and save all the money it would take to pay them that 50%. There's nothing in it for you, to pay them anything at all.

The EU is screwed. But nobody with half a brain ever really thought otherwise.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

Ah, that sweet allure of separate national currencies. What was it someone on another thread said about liberals touching things and turning them to shit

Are you saying the “national currencies” or the Euro is the liberal ting turning to Sh!te in this scenario. Because I have heard, that a return to the Drachma or a non-entry into the Euro would make sense for Greece. They can devalue the Drachma, give a de facto “hair cut” to bond holders, solving PART of the problem…then the spectacular rise, in the cost of imports, due to the devalued drachma will yield nasty inflation, and unemployment shocks for Greece. In short a return to or a never leave the drachma sorts out Greece’s problems, all the while without having to involve the EU in a very nasty, divisive, expensive, and ultimately doomed to failure effort to sustain the Euro….

Or is the Euro the liberal project? I can see that…you cannot have the Greek “Work Ethic” indefinitely financed by the Germans….either the Greeks work harder, the Germans work less, or the Greeks get less money…sadly the EU can’t bring itself to confront this conundrum.

gregq said...

Good for Papandreou. Either the Greek people have to accept that they no longer get to live off the rest of the EU, or the EU should simply and fully cut the Greeks off.

It is fraud to take money from the rest of the EU, when he knows the Greek people are not yet willing to live up to their side of the bargain.

Scott M said...

@Joe

Europe will return to national currencies. The EU project will turn to shit. Then zombies will eat them.

traditionalguy said...

Occupy Athens. Then the German Bankers will surrender for sure.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Does this mean high tax rates and lavish entitlement programs don't work?

cubanbob said...

I thought i would never live to say this but the Germans need to get in touch with their inner German and put the gun to Greece's head: take the deal as it is or not only are you out of the Euro Zone but you are out of the EU entirely which would include no free trade zone status for Greece, no Schengen Treaty for the Greeks and no EU farm subsidies for Greece. Then have the Greeks hold their referendum.

MadisonMan said...

Having done a round of training in Greece, let me say that none of this surprises me. Greeks were lazy workers when they cared to show up at all. Work through lunch? God forbid. And forget about doing anything after 3 PM. That was quitting time.

Pogo said...

After establishing variable gravity regulations, the EU will hold a referendum on when the sun should rise, and where.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Europe will return to national currencies. The EU project will turn to shit. Then zombies will eat them

And except for the “zombies” part it’s not even a joke…I mean the whole Mad Max thing sans zombies is imaginable in Greece….The EU can’t/won’t say this (Because of the pull of the Transnational Progressive Dream of EU-topia) but they need to say, “Either Greece ratifies this agreement OR there is a return to the drachma.”

Occupy Athens. Then the German Bankers will surrender for sure

You may have this backwards, the German Bankers (Wehrmacht) may occupy Athens.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
After establishing variable gravity regulations, the EU will hold a referendum on when the sun should rise, and where
This seems an admirable proposal, can we adopt it in the US and also see about doing something about the cold weather?

SPImmortal said...

Of course, there's some logic to the idea of a referendum. If you threaten bankruptcy and manage to get your creditors to take 50 cents on the dollar, you still won't get anyone to lend you anything in the future.

The naked truth is, you might as well just tell them to screw themselves, and save all the money it would take to pay them that 50%. There's nothing in it for you, to pay them anything at all.

The EU is screwed. But nobody with half a brain ever really thought otherwise.

-------------

Pretty much.

But defaulting is it's own austerity, much worse than the ones the people are rebelling against. Too bad they are too stupid to realise that.

The only way for the government to pay for all it's workers and all the people on the dole is to keep "borrowing" what it can't possibly pay back. With out the cash infusion from bond selling it can't possibly hope to pay it's bills.

PatCA said...

It's a surprise indeed -- guess he finally took a look at the country's bank accounts.

Richard Dolan said...

Chaotic has been the new normal in Greece (and the EU) for a while now. Financial reality has a way of catching up with those who spend more than they make, and the idea of borrowing your way out a debt hole isn't a way to solve anything.

There is no good way that this will end. Among the many bad ways in which the EU debt crisis may ultimately play out, pretty much all of them involve a substantial impact here as well.

Note, by the way, that the NYT story is still talking about a Greek default as a possible future event. It happened some time ago, default here just meaning not paying in full when due. Greek sovereign debt was written down 20+% months ago, and the latest deal has it being written down at least 50%. That the banks holding Greek debt were 'voluntarily' forced to take the haircut by their governments doesn't make it any less of a default.

t-man said...

I can't help myself.

Europe slips on Greece.

Scott M said...

Europe slips on Greece.

Well-crafted, sir. I don't think I've seen that one yet.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Europe slips on Greece
You might want to forward that one onto Variety.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Having done a round of training in Greece, let me say that none of this surprises me. Greeks were lazy workers when they cared to show up at all.

Why do you think this was? Is laziness part of the Greek national character or is it something else?

I know quite a few Greek-Americans and they are pretty hard working folk. They smoke like chimneys too.

TMink said...

The deal as written would only have prolonged the inevitable. 80% of people in Greece work for the government, so they have no real sense of competition and productivity. But man they sure know how to suck.

From the government teat I mean.

I wonder if one of their creditors will end up invading them and taking over?

Trey

Cedarford said...

traditionalguy said...
The smell of George Soros in the morning...it's the smell of currency speculators making insider payoffs
==================
Wouldn't be surprised if that bloodsucker has his fingers deep in it.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Hoosier Daddy said...

I know quite a few Greek-Americans and they are pretty hard working folk.

I assume you are seeing the results of self-selection. The Greeks who want to succeed based on their own hard work understand that they need to do that someplace other than Greece.

Widely Seen said...

It seems that, just before push comes to shove, many things become erratic.
It's a sign that there are no good solutions, only bad and worse ones which are embraced with instant regrets and then discarded.
In this case, the threat of a Greek vast default led to a half-vast default [nicely phrased as a 50% haircut].
Whether it's demonstrations in the streets or repudiation at the ballot box, the result is still chaos and suffering as seen by the formerly happy Greeks...

rhhardin said...

NYC defaulted on its bonds in the 70s, just not calling it a default. They gave investors nice clean new bonds for their old dirty bonds, with a longer term and lower interest.

Some people kept buying NYC bonds, is the amazing thing.

Others learned the lesson: never buy a municipal bond. The full faith and credit guarantee means unless the couts don't feel like it.

Persuambly somthing that can print the money that the bond is denominated in is safe, but who knows.

Freder Frederson said...

But defaulting is it's own austerity, much worse than the ones the people are rebelling against. Too bad they are too stupid to realise that.

If this is true, please explain Argentina and Iceland. Default is bad, but not as bad as endless austerity and policies guaranteed to put Greece in years of recession to pay back money they have no hope of repaying, even at 40 or 50 cents on the dollar.

gerry said...

I know quite a few Greek-Americans and they are pretty hard working folk. They smoke like chimneys too.

A local, very successful businessman who happens to be a Greek immigrant told me that he hopes Greece undergoes a massive failure. He told me his former countrymen are lazy, short-sighted people and deserve the result of their folly.

Oh, and his village was leveled by Communists during the post-WWII civil war in Greece.

And he doesn't smoke.

gerry said...

If this is true, please explain Argentina and Iceland. Default is bad, but not as bad as endless austerity and policies guaranteed to put Greece in years of recession to pay back money they have no hope of repaying, even at 40 or 50 cents on the dollar.

Greece can only use the Argentine solution if it cuts its ties to the Euro to inflate the drachma to solve its debt problem. Things will be shitty for a few years, but will level out to Greece's substandard of living afterward.

wv: tuatea. A hot or iced drink made from tuat.

Hoosier Daddy said...

The Greeks who want to succeed based on their own hard work understand that they need to do that someplace other than Greece.

That is my assumption but I have never been to Greece so it makes me wonder if its national character or simply the result of becoming so dependent upon the State that it absolves the individual from any sense of ambition.

It's either one or the other and neither option speaks well for Greeks.

Hoosier Daddy said...

If this is true, please explain Argentina and Iceland.

If I'm not mistaken. Argentina and Iceland aren't tied to a continental currency. A Greek default means the end of the Euro.

Curious George said...

"MadisonMan said...
Having done a round of training in Greece, let me say that none of this surprises me. Greeks were lazy workers when they cared to show up at all. Work through lunch? God forbid. And forget about doing anything after 3 PM. That was quitting time."

Sounds like employees in the public sector. Huh.

Freder Frederson said...

Greece can only use the Argentine solution if it cuts its ties to the Euro to inflate the drachma to solve its debt problem.

Exactly, SPs point was that default was "stupid" and worse than paying off the debt. He is simply wrong, default (which most likely means leaving the Euro) might be the best option.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
If I'm not mistaken. Argentina and Iceland aren't tied to a continental currency. A Greek default means the end of the Euro
It means the end of the Euro as a Trans-National Progressive Ideal…the Euro could soldier on and prosper, were it to only be the common currency of Germany, France, the Benelux Nations, and Scandinavia. If the European-wide Euro dies, it does mean the death of “Europe,” as many European elites want to see Europe, united, under their technocratic, non-democratic oligarchic rule….

Oh and Cedarford, I’m sure George Soros is involved, it’s shady financial shenanigans, destroying the hard work of G*D-Fearing Christians, OF COURSE a Jew is involved…at least in your mind.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
He is simply wrong, default (which most likely means leaving the Euro) might be the best option
They won’t, necessarily, default if they leave the Euro….they will reinstitute the drachma a low value currency, which they will then proceed to FURTHER devalue, then they will renegotiate their Euro debt into drachma denominated bonds and proceed to “repay” their debt with devalued . Technically, not a default. It has consequences, that’s for sure.

Greece COULD default, if they don’t leave the Euro, though…Greece could simply say, “We can’t meet the interest/principle obligations on our Euro-Denominated debt and we will not be making next month’s interest/principal payment.” THAT’S a default.

Under Plan A banks and bond holders take a haircut and receive payment. Under Plan B, they do not (receive payment), at least for a while. Plan A might be preferable.

Chip S. said...

I don't understand how Greece can be in economic trouble. They've been building a high-speed rail line for about a decade.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I'm still trying to understand how this could happen despite high taxes and lavish entitlements.

edutcher said...

This is what democracy looks like.

The mob runs the government.

MadisonMan said...

Sounds like employees in the public sector. Huh.

As far as I could tell, work-avoidance knew no public/private division.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
I'm still trying to understand how this could happen despite high taxes and lavish entitlements
Because it hasn’t been implemented by the “Right” People, yet…in America it will be….*SHEESH* You Tea baggers are so slow.

Freder Frederson said...

Plan A might be preferable.

For the banks certainly. Not so sure about the Greek people though.

Lance said...

Why do you think this was? Is laziness part of the Greek national character or is it something else?

I know quite a few Greek-Americans and they are pretty hard working folk. They smoke like chimneys too.


Der Spiegel had an interesting article on Estonia that started by contrasting that country and Greece, which more or less answers your question I think. The article introduces the contrast thus:

When a Greek leaves a sunny country filled with olive trees, magnificent beaches and warm sea foam, when he leaves a place where summer lasts for seven months and moves to a country where he is held captive by a seemingly endless winter, it's bound to raise a few questions. Some relate to the country he has left, but his new home raises even more questions. And there is one question that affects both countries: Why is the one society driving people away, while the other draws them in?

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
For the banks certainly. Not so sure about the Greek people though

Either way the party’s over for Greece, and the Greek people are going to have to pay a price and suffer the consequences of their actions. Under “A” oil sky rockets, imported food sky rockets…Tourism might improve, due to a favourable exchange rate…

Peter said...

Drachmas were a great currency. Although Drachma coins weigh practically nothing (aluminum), you could throw a couple of them into an Illinois tollway coin bucket and it would accept them as quarters.

Long live the Drachma! Euros out of Europe.

And, what exactly does "FtG" stand for, anyway.

Hoosier Daddy said...

So if I understand this correctly, you can have high tax rates, lavish social programs but still go bankrupt.

Huh...

MadisonMan said...

For the Gold?

Alex said...

Greece has an economy? I thought it's just feta cheese and pan pipes.

hawkeyedjb said...

And yet, the belief persists that you can get people to go to work every day for someone else's benefit.

Hell, the Greeks don't even want to get up and go to work every day for their own benefit. Unfortunately for them, the Germans appear willing to walk away and say 'good luck.'

Cedarford said...

Time to put a reality check on the Greeks.
1. Accept half a loaf from the wealthier European nations - who now have populaces that say the "Whole EU bound by the Euro from Spain to Turkey" is not worth it if they are the ones tapped to prop up the wastrel Greeks, etc. Unless Greece comes to reality..

OR


2. Tell the Greeks they are being cut loose. No more Euro for them, exist on whatever currency they print at whatever value it is on the Open Market. Tell them if they want, they can go back under Turkey's leadership and be a subsidiary to the Turk economy for all the rest of Europe cares. THAT will wake up the Greeks!!

Hoosier Daddy said...

My Big Fat Greek Bailout.

David said...

Insufficiently Sensitive said...
Mr. Papandreou is making a foolish attempt to cover his behind - he's asking the electorate to validate the very austerity that the street mobs are rioting against.

They won't approve, of course, because they want a perpetual supply of manna from the EU heaven . . . .


I think it's a good move, even though it's partly directed at preventing Poppy from losing a no confidence vote later this week.

Sooner or later, the Greek voters are going to have to face the reality. They can face it by approving the austerity plan, or they can face it by voting the plan down, and suffering the consequences. Neither outcome is very pleasant for the Greeks, but these are (broadly speaking) the only two alternatives.

If the government moves without popular support, it will fail because everyone will be able to criticize without taking responsibility. The rioters will have won, and the lack of support will doom the supposed austerity.

I think actually a referendum is the only way that the Greek nation can move forward. Plans without this kind of support will collapse.

According to polls, about half of Greek voters oppose the austerity plan, but 70% do not want to leave the Euro currency. They can't have both. My guess is that the plan will be approved in a referendum.

Holmes said...

From the source of western civilization to the drain of western civilization in under 3 millenia. Well done.

frank said...

Having done a round of training in Greece, let me say that none of this surprises me. Greeks were lazy workers when they cared to show up at all.

Why do you think this was? Is laziness part of the Greek national character or is it something else?

I know quite a few Greek-Americans and they are pretty hard working folk. They smoke like chimneys too.

Answer: the 'operative' word is
--Americans. US dumbfucks steal all the bright/hard working peoples of the world.

Jose_K said...

If this is true, please explain Argentina
Argentina is a fraud. The head of the statistic institute was fired for telling the true about inflation.
Yesterday there was a link at instapundit about new censorship actions by the govermnet.
and Hugo Chavez gave them 4 billion $ for paper without value then funnelled into the bubble that is called venezuelan economy.

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