September 12, 2011

Live-blogging the Republican Debate.

Come! Hang out here. My son John is live-blogging too. He's great at this, so check him out.

7:04 — Somehow, CNN is incorporating the Tea Party. We'll see how that works.

7:06 — Thumping music. And everyone's in a black suit tonight. Kind of scary... but finally a lady! It's Michele Bachmann, in a red jacket. For a while there, I thought it was going to turn into a boxing match.

7:07 — WTF? The National Anthem precedes a debate? This is making me want to switch over to the Brewers game. Is CNN all hot to prove it's patriotic? Ridiculous!

7:09 — Santorum and Romney mouth the anthem. Perry looks staunchly patriotic. This is soooo cheeseball. The singer goes all angry-face. Freeeeeeeeeee! Yikes. Give me a break. CNN has set this up to repel us.

7:12 — Introductory statements. Blah.

7:15 — "President Obama stole over $500 from Medicare for Obamacare" — says Bachmann.

7:16 — Perry assures the oldies they'll have Social Security. But "this is a broken system" — and lots of other people have called it a Ponzi scheme.

7:18 — Mitt Romney challenges Perry for saying SS shouldn't even be a federal matter, that it's unconstitutional. Does Perry want to retreat from that? Perry does retreat, saying we mainly need to "have a conversation" about it. Romney pushes him again and asserts it's "an essential program." Perry hits him back with his own statement, that it's criminal. The audience is so supportive of Perry, cheering every Perry jab.

7:20 — I think CNN's scheme is to have packed the audience with the Tea Party faithful, making it a cheering section for Rick Perry. It's a bit irritating. I think Mitt knows what's happening, and he has a great opportunity to show that he can keep his bearings.

7:31 — Funny how no one will take away the seniors' drug benefit.  Even Paul. "We shouldn't have voted for it..." but we can't cut it.

7:40 — The American economy will "take off like a rocket ship" if you let small business folk get a return on their investment, says Romney. Pushed by Blitzer, Perry blurts out a slogan: "People are tired of spending money we don't have on programs we don't want."

7:43 — Romney says there are 7 things we need to do. He's counting them off. Are we going to be tested on this?

7:45 — "If you're dealt 4 aces, that doesn't necessarily make you a great poker player," quips Romney, asked how much credit Perry deserves for all his accomplishments in Texas. Apparently, Texas is the 4 aces. He ticks off 4 attributes of Texas. This could be an amusing Romney tic: numbered lists.

7:46 — Perry has some nicely Reaganesque speech cadences. Works well to make Romney seem rabbit-y.

7:48 — "There are people comin' to Texas — for 5 years in a row, the number 1 destination — they're not comin' because we're overtaxing them. They're comin' to Texas because they know there's still a land of freedom in America, freedom from overtaxation, freedom from overlitigation, and freedom from overregulation, and it's called Texas. We need to do the same thing for America." Well spoken! By Rick Perry.

7:50 — Huntsman says, no, it's Utah that is the best state of all.

7:59 — Bachmann wants to put the Federal Reserve on "such at tight leash that they will squeak."

8:00  — Perry stands by his "almost treasonous" remark, referring to the use of the Federal Reserve for political purposes. Think that's inflammatory? I don't. I think it's rather bland. And I love the total unrufflability of Perry. He seems so happy too, even as he represents viewpoints normally considered angry. I like his temperament. I think. Or is it a little odd?

8:01 —A young guys asks a classic question: "Out of every dollar that I earn, how much do you think I deserve to keep?"

8:13 — Very intense disagreement over inoculating schoolgirls against cervical cancer. Bachmann, Perry, and Santorum all sounded strong, even as Perry had to concede he's made a mistake. Bachmann accuses Perry of being bought for $5,000 and Perry says he's insulted that she'd think he could be bought so cheaply.

8:15 — John writes: "Perry keeps defending his HPV vaccination law by saying, 'My goal was to fight cancer,' and 'I will always err on the side of life.' Isn't that exactly the same principle used by supporters of government-sponsored health care, which Perry presumably thinks is tyrannical?"

8:22 — Michele Bachmann is on fire: "2012 is it. This is the election that's going to decide if we have socialized medicine in this country or not."

8:34 — Huntsman accuses Perry of treason for saying we can't secure the border. And just before that, Perry got a lot of boos for defending the Texas law that lets young people in Texas illegally pay in-state tuition at public colleges.

8:35 — Romney takes a tough position on illegal immigration. "Of course we build a fence."

8:51 — What would you bring to the White House? Perry says, "the most beautiful, most thoughtful, incredible First Lady that this country has ever seen — Anita." That seems to overshadow the ones that went before, making it hard for Romney, who follows, not to promote his wife, but Romney does well, saying he'd bring back the bust of Winston Churchill.

8:52 — Huntsman will bring his Harley Davidson. Does he win the quien-es-mas-macho game?

9:00 — So... what did you think? Ron Paul empathizing with al Qaeda was a bit... off. Perry lost some ground with the rowdy crowd by empathizing with undocumented aliens. Huntsman and Bachmann were feisty. Perry was solid and articulate. Romney was fine. Cain, Santorum, Newt... they got their statements in well enough, but I can't see them as serious contenders.

245 comments:

1 – 200 of 245   Newer›   Newest»
lyssalovelyredhead said...

I wish that I had something clever enough to say exactly how lame this intro is.

- Lyssa

mesquito said...

CNN palling around with terrorists. This should be good.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Michelle Bachmann looks great. It's hard to pull off both red and the not-a-suit look, but I think she did it.

mesquito said...

I'm only listening. Did someone do cartwheels and backflips when they went on stage?

Fred4Pres said...

Rumor has it the CNN Moderators are drinking Rush's Two If By Tea.

Jim Howard said...

I'm not sure who will be the next President, but I'm pretty sure that Herman Cain will be the next VP.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Ron Paul looks like he didn't prepare to do an introduction.

Fred4Pres said...

Rumor has it Debbie Wasserman Schultz is going commando at the debate.

As is Ron Paul.

Seven Machos said...

Until Simon Cowell is a judge for these things, I don't watch them.

AllenS said...

The Brewers have the night off.

Paddy O said...

"that's in your book"

ouch

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Ooh, Romney's bulldogging it out of the gate. I think Perry's looking above it. But short; Perry looks short compared to Romney's hair.

Paddy O said...

Just turned it on.

Has Sarah Palin declared her candidacy yet?

Maguro said...

Everything looks short compared to Romney's hair.

Fred4Pres said...

Perry is right other people have called Social Security names...like Mitt Romney calling it an illegal system. Perry is right, it is a Ponzi scheme.

Paddy O said...

Kurt Cobain jokes?

Rose said...

Huntsman needs to get out.

Rose said...

Until a half a minute ago, liberals called Social Security a Ponzi scheme, too.

Jim Howard said...

I'm glad we are not getting gays, gods and abortion, and guns questions.

A. Shmendrik said...

I want to have Michelle Bachmann's baby!

Saint Croix said...

Okay, Michelle looks pretty damn hot for 55. I like her hair.

Republican women are smokin'.

Saint Croix said...

I would totally rescue her from a bathroom now.

Saint Croix said...

depending on the size of the nun

BT said...

Where in the constitution does the President have the authority to repeal anything?

Jim Howard said...

Bachman seems a bit incoherent in her social security answer.

Luke Sneeringer said...

Gingrich's comment about, "I'm not particularly worried about Governor Romney or Governor Perry scaring the American people when President Obama does that every day," was a hit out of the park.

With regard to the prescription drug benefit, I think the reason nobody is jumping in line to cut it is because, in comparison to the rest of Medicare, it's pretty cost-efficient.

Saint Croix said...

why does it look like a frickin' game show?

Saint Croix said...

Michelle's laugh is loud!

CEO-MMP said...

A tea party crowd would be for Bachmann.

Maybe they just like Perry?

Hard for you to comprehend, I know. Just think a little more deeply.

Jim Howard said...

I wish Newt had a chance.

Saint Croix said...

Newt totally seems like a professor who's going to give me a B.

Saint Croix said...

The time limit thing turns them all into motormouths. I'm not sure if Rick Perry is at a drawl disadvantage, or it makes him seem normal.

David said...

This whole "debate" format is tired and useless. Let them go out and campaign, town to town, and maybe the media will report on what they say.

Saint Croix said...

Huntsman totally reminds me of Joe Isuzu. Did I read that somewhere? I would not buy a car from that man.

David said...

I do agree, Lyssa, that Bachmann looks great. She is not just good looking. There's an energy that shows through.

Saint Croix said...

crowd wants to execute Bernacke.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

‎"Can you be pro-biz and pro-worker?" I'm guessing that that person doesn't define "worker" as "one who works."

Seven Machos said...

Lyssa -- To the liberal who grew up in a comfortable, leafy suburb, in a beautiful home, a struggle between workers and the owners of the means of production is exciting and romantic. This is the siren call of the left.

Of course, it's all very laughable in this age.

David said...

Bachmann is 55??? It's true. I looked it up.

lily said...

Why no comment on Ron Paul? Let me guess...you weren't paying attention. Wake up for heavens sake!

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Seven Machos: To the liberal who grew up in a comfortable, leafy suburb, in a beautiful home, a struggle between workers and the owners of the means of production is exciting and romantic. This is the siren call of the left.

As a teen in the 90's, I had similar thoughts about the romance and excitment of burning draft cards anytime there was a conflict that could lead to war . . . and a draft. (I don't know who's draft card I would burn. I think it took me a while to catch on that I, personally, did not get a draft card.)

lyssalovelyredhead said...

I was so excited to see a Fair Tax question, but then they only give it to Romney, who doesn't have a clue what it's about.

Seven Machos said...

Why no comment on Ron Paul?

Because Ron Paul is a loon who will never be elected president or nominated by either major party. He claims to be a libertarian yet he is against free trade. I'll let you explain that brilliance to us.

David said...

" I think it took me a while to catch on that I, personally, did not get a draft card.)"

Nor would you every have gotten one, at any time in our history. (I know you know that.) That's one reason we are extremely unlikely to have a draft again.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

I'd pay good money for Perry to flat out call Rep. Bachmann a liar about the way she's demagoguing this Guardisil thing.

Saint Croix said...

Audience is cheering death now. Kill the hypothetical man!

Jim Howard said...

Bachman is now politically dead to me after she tries a desperate smear against Perry.

Is she a secret agent for Obama?

David said...

Headline: "Geithner heads to Europe as debt fears mount."

Oh, that little default matter and all those banks. (Speaking of Ponzi shemes.)

Anyone got any thoughts on that issue?

News media?

Anyone?

Saint Croix said...

Bachmann seems the most determined to get rid of Obamacare. She's letting her passion show.

Seven Machos said...

Isn't that exactly the same principle used by supporters of government-sponsored health care, which Perry presumably thinks is tyrannical?"

No. Abjectly no. The principle is that the federal government has limited powers. States have plenary power to make moronic laws like the HPV one at issue.

These Althouse Cohens are shallow thinkers. What happened there?

MayBee said...

My son and I are wondering if Wolf Blitzer ever leaves the CNN studios. He's always there, with exactly the same demeanor. We finally decided they probably just plug him in every night.

MayBee said...

Quite possibly, the technology for the Chevy Volt is based on the technology behind Wolf Blitzer.

Dustin said...

Bachmann had a very firey answer on Obamacare.

While it's a nice way to distinguish herself from the other candidates and look more badass, I think it's pretty ignorant.

Why would Perry not be committed to repealing Obamacare for shrugging his shoulders that MA has a state level mandate? It's none of the federal government's business. It's not like he agrees that's a good policy. It's just federalism at work, though.

And Bachmann's bribery conspiracy theory was really awful. Does she have any evidence for her nasty accusation? No. None. She just wants to win the election, and will say anything, no matter if it's incredibly nasty.

Perry is very plain spoken. But he's got the best record, and I think he's definitely doing a lot better this evening. He's also still the pinata. They all are quite aggressive against the mild and pleasant Texan with most of the facts on his side. I think he's weathering it damn well.

He'll have to, if he's got any shot in the general election.

yashu said...

Re JAC's 8:15 comment: how exactly is it the goal of "government sponsored health care" to "fight cancer" and "err on the side of life"??

Those who advocated the passage of Obamacare had a lot of lofty goals. I never heard those two mentioned.

pauldar said...

Interesting debate - this one pretty much sealed Rick Perry for the wife and I. Even my Software Engineer son, who could care less about politics , sat and watched with us. He even said "hell yes" when Perry said "they're not comin' because we're overtaxing them"

As far as all the crap about him being a Democrat, so was I 35 years ago and so was Ronald Reagan "Reagan began his political career as a liberal Democrat, admirer of Franklin D. Roosevelt, and an active supporter of New Deal policies.

Seven Machos said...

Bachmann is a polarizing figure who is whelmed already and would be overwhelmed by events at about the same rate that Obama was. So, about 15 minutes.

Seven Machos said...

Reagan began his political career as a liberal Democrat, admirer of Franklin D. Roosevelt, and an active supporter of New Deal policies.

He didn't leave the Democratic Party...

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Those who advocated the passage of Obamacare had a lot of lofty goals. I never heard those two mentioned.

I'd add that one of the downfalls of the liberal ideals for healthcare are that they will obliterate the R&D needed to find more treatments. In fact, I've heard a lot of socialized medicine supporters decrying the fact that there are too many (too expensive) treatments already.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Everytime I hear the phrase "boots on the ground", I can't think of anything but Titus during the Wisc. Governor's election.

Simon said...

I was doing this over on Twitter, but my CNN feed has died, so I'm done. Just a few comments.

Mittens destroyed Perry on social security—great snappy comebacks, really pinned him to the wall. Perry ended up looking ridiculous on that point. On the other hand, Perry did a great job on HPV. Bachmann's behavior tonight was really quite poor, especially in regard to this point—the cheap insinuation delivered without the courage to say in as many words what she was accusing Perry of (the "non-accusation accusation"), or even to look him in the eye. Bachmann came across as doe-eyed, canned, and dishonorable.

Ron Paul continued to be irrelevant and absurd, implying that we can balance the budget by saving a few million here and a few billion there. Really, it was disappointing to see all the candidates in fundamental denial of reality. All this specious sanctimonious shit about saving social security!

Listen: Low taxes, balanced budget, entitlement programs. Pick any two. That's how it is. Entitlements, even if they're sanded around the edges, demand ever-increasing spending, and that spending can be funded by one of three things: More kids, more deficits, or more taxes. The GOP can't control the first (and won't enact legislation that would promote it), and quite rightly finds the latter two unacceptable. Something has to give, my friends, and the only thing that can possibly give is to abandon this ridiculous notion that we can save entitlements. Here's the very simple message to people approaching retirement age, and it isn't "we're going to save it for you." We aren't. The message, whether any pol on either side admits it is this: The democratic party stole your money and gave it to someone else. You're fucked. Mad about that? Join the tea party. The only question now is do we keep stealing other people's money, or do you take one for the team and admit that you were taken in by liberal policies without understanding the consequences?

MayBee said...

Perry loves politics like Clinton loves politics. It seems to me.

Henry said...

And the Patriots are up 28-17 at the end of the 3rd quarter!

AJ Lynch said...

Something, perhaps it is her strident answers, makes me think Bachmann is a bit nutty.

MayBee said...

'I will always err on the side of life.' Isn't that exactly the same principle used by supporters of government-sponsored health care,

You mean the people who supported the Death Panels?

victoria said...

I think you are looking too much in to what CNN's motives are. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Sometimes what is is what is.

I love it when they say, "the day I'm inaugurated I'm going to do this and that" Please. That's bull. They will be just as effective or ineffective as the previous presidents. None of them have a magic bullet or magic cure. It's all crap. Just packaged differently.


Vicki from Pasadena

rcocean said...

Ron Paul and Hunstman should simply drop out, neither is viable candidate.

victoria said...

Lets' face it, if you choose to be uninsured and you get sick, you die. They don't care. Thanks Michelle, Ron, Rick. And you people talk about Obamacare being bad. This is 10 times worse.

Vicki from Pasadena

Simon said...

lyssalovelyredhead said...
"I'd pay good money for Perry to flat out call Rep. Bachmann a liar about the way she's demagoguing this Guardisil thing."

Anything short of walking over there and smacking her in the mouth is great and unwarranted restraint on his part. That was a vile smear, it fully warranted a physical response, and a vagina isn't a "say anything you want without consequences" card. That would have been a smear if she had said it in as many words to his face, but the way she wouldn't look him in the eye and kept firing off these robotic circumlocutions to avoid saying flat-out what everyone knew she was saying? The lady's a tramp.

Seven Machos said...

It's all crap. Just packaged differently.

Poor, poor Vicki. Growing up and learning is hard, isn't it?

But at least your love for Obama and Hope and Change taught you something. And that's important.

There will be many important life lessons for you. Especially, especially you.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Lets' face it, if you choose to be uninsured and you get sick, you die. They don't care.

The hypothetical "you" didn't care when you didn't get insurance. Please give me one reason why they should care about you more than you did?

Jim Howard said...

"Listen: Low taxes, balanced budget, entitlement programs. Pick any two. "

Wrong. When Bush 41 balanced the budget and Clinton/Newt didn't tamper with it we had all three.

What you can't have is a fiscally insane President and Congress running wild with national credit card.

AJ Lynch said...

Simon - I don't think the crowd agreed that Romney won the soc sec section. The crowd obviously was behind Perry and so was I [especially when Perry quoted Romney's book where Mitt said that soc sec, if in the private sector, would be a criminal enterprise].

Saint Croix said...

Ron Paul is frickin' citing Osama bin Laden for his political platform. Holy crap.

Saint Croix said...

Booooooooooooooooooooooooo. Wolf frickin' gave him a mercy killing by cutting him off. By God that was horrible. The whole audience was booing him.

antiphone said...

Where are the birth certificates?

Roux said...

Jeez.... Please get Ron Paul off of the stage.... he's a flippin' nut.

And so is John Huntsman...

Where did they find these two... In a hut.

AJ Lynch said...

No one said or suggested "let them die" Vicky. You lie and must take after Prez Obama.

Henry said...

You choose to be uninsured and you get sick, you go into debt.

It's actually a very reasonable system. People will take on massive amounts debt to get a B.A. Why not take on massive amounts of debt to not be dead?

Not being dead really frees up future earnings and and all that.

Dustin said...

"Mittens destroyed Perry on social security—great snappy comebacks, really pinned him to the wall. Perry ended up looking ridiculous on that point. "

I'm biased in Perry's favor, so many that's why I just don't agree. I think Perry destroyed Romney, who was forced to concede Perry's ACTUAL views are completely right, and the only problem is Romney's straw man and scare tactics.

Anyway, Romney will lose even more support now. My guess. If I'm wrong, I guess my glasses were too tinted.

Seven Machos said...

Lets' face it, if you choose to be uninsured and you get sick, you die. They don't care.

But Vicki cares. She cares so much. This is why she advocates rationing of medical services, taking a bunch of everyone's money by force, and making everyone get insurance.

That's caring, man. And that part about rationing -- well, that's just being fair. Everyone will die sooner, but some poor people will live longer. See?

victoria said...

Build a fence, that is probably the dumbest thing anyone has said tonight.Think about it for a second.


Dumb


Vicki

Bob Ellison said...

Could someone try, just try, to give Perry, apparently not a very smart person, credit for the HPV vaccine issue? If you think he did evil there, challenge yourself to consider that he might have actually tried to do the right thing.

Simon said...

Jim Howard said...
"I wish Newt had a chance."

Yeah. Me too. Unfortunately, though, I agree with rcocean—as enjoyable as all this is qua television, it isn't productive. The non-viable candidates (Paul, Cain, Hunstman, Gingrich, Santorum) should drop out. Their presense is entertaining, but it comes at a significant cost.

Seven Machos said...

Vicki -- What's dumb about it? Your conclusory arguments are hilarious.

An overwhelming majority of Americans are for a fence. I would guess about 80 percent. I myself favor a Great Wall. It's the only way to prevent illegal immigration.

I add here that I am virulently pro immigration.

But, anyway, Vicki. You are clearly a shallow, shallow dunce with no ability to argue. It is truly sad that you are here, bringing down the conversation.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Victoria's got 'em both ways: They're not going to accomplish anything different and they're going to make poor people die! It's a potent combination.

victoria said...

Well, Lyssa, I have insurance that I pay for. I acknowledge that there are people out there who can't afford insurance. However, I,unlike Ron Paul and Michelle Bachmann, would actually want to help those less fortunate. That is the American Way. As for your "Romance of the '90's, burning draft cards etc" You don't know crap about anything. Live a couple of decades and you will actually see that life isn't all Tea Party mumbo jumbo.
You must live in a pretty ideal world. Well, the rest of us live in the real world.

Vicki from Pasadena

Jim Howard said...

Huntsman just went up a notch in my eyes by promising to bring motorcycles to the White House.

mesquito said...

I invite any fence enthusiasts to drive west out of Del Rio on US 90. It would be a huge boondoggle separating emptiness from nothingness. Perry's dead right about stratgicly places barriers.

MayBee said...

Bachmann is creeping me out the way she's calling 12 year olds "innocent little girls" wrt the Guardasil vaccine. Like Perry is a pedophile making little girls do something sex-related.

EDH said...

The distinction I think these candidates need to make with respect to Social Security is that the program has been run by the polical class as if it were a Ponzi scheme, not that it necessarily is a Ponzi scheme.

Seven Machos said...

Paul -- In Vicki's sad, imaginary world, Republicans get up every morning thinking up ways to further wreak pain and sadness in the lives of poor people. And, of course, the lives of women and minorities. If you can fuck up the life of a bunch of poor black women, well, that's the trifecta.

But Vicki is sad and stupid. And she sure must be frustrated, too. You can see the resentment, and the indignation. It was supposed to be all Hope and Change! Closing Guantanamo! economic prosperity!

She is humiliated, and her sad arguments are even sadder now.

edutcher said...

This round of debates is probably just going to convince some of the field it's time to go home. The big points get scored when it's down to 2 or 3.

victoria said...

I think you are looking too much in to what CNN's motives are. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Sometimes what is is what is.

I love it when they say, "the day I'm inaugurated I'm going to do this and that" Please. That's bull. They will be just as effective or ineffective as the previous presidents. None of them have a magic bullet or magic cure. It's all crap. Just packaged differently.


But she probably voted for the guy who promised he was going to heal the planet the second he got home from Berlin.

Lets' face it, if you choose to be uninsured and you get sick, you die. They don't care.

Because nothing says, "I care", like single-payer.

victoria said...

Henry, by default they did say die. None of them could answer the question. Rewind you mind and the tape and watch them tap dance around that one.
I was never in favor of Obamacare but these wingnuts don't know the first thing about healthcare and how to provide it at the least possible cost. Most of them, like the lame-ass governor of Florida, are in the back pockets of the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies.

Grow a pair and look for a candidate who actually cares. Doesn't exist. At least not on the dais tonight.

Vicki

Seven Machos said...

the rest of us live in the real world

Would that be the 30 percent of you who support Obama?

Quayle said...

However, I,unlike Ron Paul and Michelle Bachmann, would actually want to help those less fortunate.

Oh, you marvelous, glorious soul, you.

And I'll bet you just hate that publican standing over there at the other side of the temple.

(My experience is that people that actually do help the poor, don't waste one breath telling others about it.)

victoria said...

Seven, too bad that you cannot engage in intelligent discourse. Must be something lacking in your DNA. Just because a great percentage of Americans think we should build a fence doesn't make it right or feasible.

Vicki

Seven Machos said...

Grow a pair and look for a candidate who actually cares.

If only we could politicians who care. That's the ticket! There's not enough caring in the world. Republicans are mean and they just don't care!

Poor, poor Vicki. Sad and disillusioned and angry. It just oozes out of her postings.

Simon said...

AJ Lynch said...
"Simon - I don't think the crowd agreed that Romney won the soc sec section."

and

Dustin said...
"I'm biased in Perry's favor, so many that's why I just don't agree. I think Perry destroyed Romney, who was forced to concede Perry's ACTUAL views are completely right, and the only problem is Romney's straw man and scare tactics."

Between the two of them, I'm biased toward Perry, and I still say Mittens destroyed him on this point. If Perry believes social security is unconstitutional, he has a duty to work to repeal it—not to finesse it, not to reform it, to get rid of it. We don't reform unconstitutional laws, we reject them. And if Perry believes (as I thought he did) that social security is untenable as policy, that it's a ponzi scheme and so on, then his op/ed today makes little sense. Let me rephrase: His op/ed today made no sense, and Mittens made it appear hypocritical as well as foolish. If Perry's defense is that it's merely foolish, well, that's faint praise.

And that "let's have a conversation" line? It was stupid even before Mittens lanced it by pointing out that they were having a conversation.

Perry was right six months ago (at least in my understanding of what his book said): Social Security is unconstitutional and financially untenable. It has to go. Perry's new position—"I'm running for President now so I can't piss off AARP"—is impossible. That's not to say that Romney's position on the issue is right either, but he did great in exposing the absurdity of Perry's flip flop.

We cannot fix entitlements. There's just no way. Even if the current level of federal taxation were acceptable, and it isn't, there's no way to bring entitlements within that fence temporarily, let alone to keep them there. Not without fundamentally altering the demographics of the country—as in, everyone starts having at least three to five industrious kids—and no one is willing to have that conversation. So what we're left with, as I said before, are three choices: can entitlements, raise taxes, or deficit financing. Anyone who says otherwise is innumerate or selling you something.

Saint Croix said...

Bachmann was terrific except for the attack on Perry, which backfired and had me feeling sorry for him.

All the attacks on Perry made him seem like he was in first place. But he doesn't give a Presidential vibe at all. He was unfocused, unprepared, he didn't answer the questions he was asked, his mind wandered, he didn't score any points, he played defense all night long.

"I feel sorry for him" is not enough. He's got to work on his debate skills, a lot. He needs to bone up on federal issues, a lot. He seems like a nice, genial guy, but I am not being wowed by Rick Perry. At all.

Scoring the debate at home:

#1 Bachmann
#2 Gingrich
#3 Cain
#4 Romney
#5 Perry
#6 Santorum
#7 Huntsman
#8 Paul

Simon said...

victoria said...
"Just because a great percentage of Americans think we should build a fence doesn't make it right or feasible."

Amen! Virtually all Republicans believe that we pay too much in taxes and should cut spending, yet 57% of us (CNN polling says) believe that we should do so without major changes to entitlements. There are some people who seem to think that we could repeal the law of gravity if a majority supported doing so.

Seven Machos said...

Just because a great percentage of Americans think we should build a fence doesn't make it right or feasible.

We live in a representative democracy governed by a Constitution. There is nothing in the Constitution preventing a fence. So, actually, poor, sad Vicki, because a great percentage of Americans think we should build a fence, in fact it does make it right.

It's certainly feasible.

Incidentally, the fact that this Great Wall would be largely in the middle of nowhere is a feature, not a bug.

Seven Machos said...

Simon -- Is a wall between the United States and Mexico an entitlement?

I'll wait.

Dustin said...

"MayBee said...

Bachmann is creeping me out the way she's calling 12 year olds "innocent little girls" wrt the Guardasil vaccine. Like Perry is a pedophile making little girls do something sex-related.
"

It's very crass, and just plain poorly presented. Santorum was strident too, but at least he made sense.

Bachmann's *yelling* about sticking needles in innocent girls. But it's pretty damn conventional to 'force' girls to take vaccines to go to school.

The problem with this one is that many think it's sex related, and thus none of the government's damn business (my view).

Anyway, Perry's got eleven years of impressive experience, and this is a tiny issue in comparison. Of course a guy with so much experience is wrong on a few things.

The folks with no executive experience, or far less with more blackmarks, are hard pressed to overcome that.

Anyway, this debate had a couple of people try to one up eachother with unrealistic points. Otherwise, a very solid debate.

Pastafarian said...

Vickie: "these wingnuts don't know the first thing about healthcare and how to provide it..."

Good thing they're not running for Family Doctor of the United States, then, huh, Vickie?

edutcher said...

Interesting point Ann makes about First Ladies.

Do we really care if she's a looker?

Or if she has class?

If she's a real shrew, that might be a deal-breaker for some.

And Huntsman's quien es mas macho thing is probably a road he doesn't want to travel.

Saint Croix said...

Bachmann was terrific except for the attack on Perry, which backfired and had me feeling sorry for him.

All the attacks on Perry made him seem like he was in first place. But he doesn't give a Presidential vibe at all. He was unfocused, unprepared, he didn't answer the questions he was asked, his mind wandered, he didn't score any points, he played defense all night long.


Could be the grass fire problems at home.

That's not an excuse, but none of the others have anything to do, but prepare for these things.

Simon said...

By the by, my favorite comment of the night was something Dahlia Lithwick retweeted: "Herman Cain has a 999 plan: 9 Pizzas, with 9 toppings, for $9!"

As Althouse noted the other day (quoting Alinsky, but Scott Adams made the same point better in The Dilbert Future), mocking dolts with sarcasm—ridicule—is by far the best weapon.

Ralph L said...

Isn't that exactly the same principle used by supporters of government-sponsored health care,
No, they're levelers. They want crack whores to have the same health care as Steve Jobs without having to blow anyone for it.

Quayle said...

Just because a great percentage of Americans think we should build a fence doesn't make it right or feasible.

Border fence isn't shovel ready, Vick?

Why should that stop us?

It hasn't in the past.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

I acknowledge that there are people out there who can't afford insurance.

The US gov't can't afford insurance for everyone who doesn't want to buy it for themselves.

However, I,unlike Ron Paul and Michelle Bachmann, would actually want to help those less fortunate.

No one's stopping you- please, do help the less fortunate to your heart's content. I will too. That doesn't mean that you get to force me to do it the way that you want it done.

That is the American Way.

No, it's not.


As for your "Romance of the '90's, burning draft cards etc" You don't know crap about anything. Live a couple of decades and you will actually see that life isn't all Tea Party mumbo jumbo.

What? First, what does that have to do with the rest of your argument? Second, what do I not know about, and how on earth was it demonstrated by a silly tale about my teens? Third, what does my flirtations with teen-aged hippy-dom have to do with "Tea Party mumbo-jumbo?

You must live in a pretty ideal world. Well, the rest of us live in the real world.

Again, what? Where did you get the idea that I live in an "ideal world"? The real world is nothing like anything that you write about.

edutcher said...

Simon said...

By the by, my favorite comment of the night was something Dahlia Lithwick retweeted: "Herman Cain has a 999 plan: 9 Pizzas, with 9 toppings, for $9!"

As Althouse noted the other day (quoting Alinsky, but Scott Adams made the same point better in The Dilbert Future), mocking dolts with sarcasm—ridicule—is by far the best weapon.


I'd hardly call Herman Cain a dolt.

Sometimes the ridicule is better fitted at the point of origin.

Dustin said...

"So, actually, poor, sad Vicki, because a great percentage of Americans think we should build a fence, in fact it does make it right."

Huh?

What if you're a farmer who relies on that river? And the government wants to fence your farm from that river? And the immigrants can just get through the fence anyway?

Actually, it's worse than that. A fence here really won't work.

There's nothing in the constitution barring time travel either, but that doesn't mean the will of the masses makes that the necessary thing to do.

Realistic solutions beat lame 'my plan is bigger than your plan' unrealistic ones.

Anyway, Perry is in favor of a secure border, has actually made decisions that made the border more secure, and those demanding a 500 ft tall wall with lasers in the center of a river come across as childish.

Seven Machos said...

Lyssa -- Vicki is one of those shallow people who grew up in a leafy suburb. She wants so badly help people -- to demonstrate that she cares. The fact that she must take people's money to do it and trample on their constitutional rights doesn't trouble her at all. The most important thing is demonstrating how much she, Vicki, cares about the plight of the poor.

It doesn't even matter if the solution works, or makes matters far worse. Witness the federal welfare program circa 1975.

Care, Vicki! Care some more! Show us how much more you care!

Dale said...

Only two people mattered in the debate tonight.

Seriously folks, it's time to get real, and put away the fantasy lads and lass (wouldn't Michelle Bachmann look great in the next debate in a French Maid outfit?! With thigh highs? VISUAL! She would definitely make more of an impact that way!) It's Democrat ass whuppin time! And there's no time to waste!

Perry or Romney (sorry, Palin does not have a chance - there you go on that escape from reality again!)

Pick one. Contribute. Get your neighbors on board.

Or . . . . .


Defend someone else here, bookmark this page andc ome back to remind yourself how useless you were at a time when the United States needed you.

No.More.Wasted.Time. Obama is not sleeping on hids reelection.

Get with the program now, please. Or make sure you poost your fantasy-without-a-chance-in-hell choice here, so we can see who to thank for the future Obama Supreme Court choices.

Quayle said...

Care, Vicki! Care some more! Show us how much more you care!

And how much better you are than all of us uncaring haters.

Since apparently you feel can look into our souls and judge our hearts.

Big Mike said...

I think part of the problem for Republican politicians from the southwestern states is that they've been dealing with illegal (oops, I meant "undocumented") immigrants for scores of decades, and the immigrants seem to be integrated into society (at least based on what I've seen my numerous business trips to El Paso, San Antonio, Austin, Tucson, and Phoenix). So I'm guessing the Perry, like Bush and McCain, just don't get that the rest of us have a problem.

But we do.

Seven Machos said...

What if you're a farmer who relies on that river?

Yeah, that's never been litigated, dude. And the government's never won using, incidentally, a Constitutional provision.

Anyway, I am merely pointing out that we, as a people, by ourselves, for ourselves, and of ourselves can build a fence. We decide what's right. It's quite glorious.

If you don't like it, you may take your pick from any number of places where philosopher kings and elites rule the domain. Enjoy!

Pastafarian said...

Dustin -- ther are lasers on this wall? Now I'm listening. Can we mount the lasers on sharks in the river?

Seven -- you've got Vickie all wrong. She's from the 'hood. East side of Pasadena. Probably drinking a forty and tokin' a shorty right now.

David said...

Perry said: ""It doesn't matter how you got here. It doesn't matter what the sound of your last name is. That is the American way."

Now I will at least consider Perry for President. Enough of the immigration pandering. Some guts too.

Robin said...

Well, the rest of us live in the real world.

Vicki from Pasadena


Why is it then that "your" world seems to involve outright fabrications?

Cedarford said...

Saint Croix said...
Booooooooooooooooooooooooo. Wolf frickin' gave him a mercy killing by cutting him off. By God that was horrible. The whole audience was booing him.

==========
Not really. The spiel 10 years ago that "they only attacked us because they hate us for Our Sacred Parchment, the Holy Constitution and Our Freedoms" was pretty quickly discovered to be complete crap. Certain Republicans cling to the myth, and deeply believe that any day, the Islamist countries we invaded and those they want invaded in the future - will come to love us for the money we gave them and the gifts of Freedom!! and democracy.

The audience that booed him still believe the early 9/11 propaganda.

roesch-voltaire said...

Once again Paul nails the folly of the neo-con wars, and Huntsman has a serious tax plan, but no one will listen. Cheer for those who die because they have no insurance, and Rick can be bought. That's all folks.

Simon said...

Bob Ellison said...
"Could someone try, just try, to give Perry, apparently not a very smart person, credit for the HPV vaccine issue? If you think he did evil there, challenge yourself to consider that he might have actually tried to do the right thing."

I think he totally did the right thing, frankly. All this talk about parents' rights is misplaced: Parents had an opt-out. And while Santorum did very well in terms of presenting himself, his point doesn't survive scrutiny: We don't just innoculate in school because school can transmit diseases, and even if we did—what, you thought kids aren't having sex at that age? Really? Lookit, the number of innocent little girls is far, far fewer than the number of little girls whose parents think that they're innocent. Ms. Bachmann is a mom, but I'm a dad, and I remember how horny, stupid, and self-involved I was as a kid. These days—I had a kid in public school, and never, ever again—it's happening even younger. Listen, children are stupid, reckless, deceitful, and manipulative. They are only pure in the sense that they are the purest, the closest to the economist's rational maximizer of their own wants. It is desperately stupid to close our eyes to this reality. Public policy has to reflect this: Young people are having sex, and lots of it, and if you say (in effect) "you get the vaccination unless you lose this form," that form will be lost. Children are stupid. They are self-involved. They have no idea of the world around them. And some of the parents are so pollyannish that it fucking terrifies me! I don't know how you balance that. I don't know how you protect the rights of good parents while protecting children from bad parents and themselves. But I will not condemn Rick Perry for making a good faith effort at making the right call.

PETER V. BELLA said...

@Vicki

Here is the real world. After me everyone else comes first. My needs trump everyone else.

Kirby Olson said...

It's still early. I don't think anybody had the one sound-bite that either made them or sank them. So I think everyone who was here will still be here in the October 18th round. I would love to see McCotter join the group. I don't think anyone's heard of him yet but he would add the dimension of relative youth and dry wit.

Quayle said...

Here is the real world. After me everyone else comes first. My needs trump everyone else.

Now that's compassion and caring.

You are strengthening the human race.

What is what Darwinist Atheism requires, isn't it?

garage mahal said...

So after last week cheering the death penalty, this week the crowd cheered that an uninsured man should be left to die? Nice.

Kirby Olson said...

Also, McCotter seems to be against dogs. Dogs are wolves. Let's get them out of our lives. Bring on the cats. Why should cats and people constantly have to be on the alert for a rabid dog? McCotter will get them out of America for good.

Saint Croix said...

Santorum did opposition research on Ron Paul. Which is kinda pathetic. On the other hand, all those Ronulan cheers became boos when Paul started citing Osama Bin Laden to explain why we're to blame for 9/11.

I think Santorum is probably the next to drop out. But before he goes, he decided to do the Republican party and favor and hit Ron Paul hard. And he nailed him. He dug the grave and Paul dumped the dirt on his own head. Awful, just awful.

Pastafarian said...

So what are Perry's and Romney's positions on shark-mounted lasers? And what's their stand on the whole Rio Grande is fresh water controversy?

I mean, I know bull sharks can go a few miles up a brackish tributary, but that's pretty weak tea here. I don't want to see this program watered down to the point that we're just duct-taping laser pointers to the heads of a few river otters.

Because my brother and I tried that, and we still haven't gotten our canoe back from those fish-and-game Gestapo.

Peter Hoh said...

@ Perry, 7:48 -- well, some people are coming to Texas specifically for overlitigation. Namely, the Marshall, Texas, described here as a destination for patent attorneys around the world.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

The more I think about it, the more I really like the way that Gov. Perry responded to Rep. Bachmann's attempts to smear him on the money for vaccine's issue. He didn't dodge or weasel; he laid it out: "Here's the company involved. Here's the money that was involved. Here's why your point is stupid."

If he can do that with Obama in the general (and of course, he can- Obama's not nearly as smart as Bachmann), he'll do well.

Chris Althouse Cohen said...

Someone in the audience at this Republican debate yelled out "YES!" to the question of whether a 30-year-old uninsured man should be allowed to die if he's in an accident. At the last one, they cheered for the hundreds of executions in Texas. Doesn't seem very "pro-life." It's more like, a 30-year-old has had his chance. Save the cells. Save the embryos.

Simon said...

edutcher said...
"I'd hardly call Herman Cain a dolt."

I would call him someone who is fundamentally not a serious candidate for the Presidency of the United States. Four years ago, I said that Barack Obama was ludicrously unqualified to be President, having accrued only a few years in a state legislature, a few in the federal legislature, and none at all in executive positions. I pointed out (to some derision, I might add) that of everyone on both tickets, Sarah Palin had more relevant experience than all three men put together. Well, I meant it. And I don't change my mind just to suit immediate political expediency, which makes unavoidable the conclusion that Herman Cain is a joke. The man has no legislative experience, and little significant executive experience. Yes, experience in the private sector can substitute for experience in government, as a general point, but I refuse to pretend that we don't know that his private sector experience is in running a small pizza chain. Godfather's isn't a fortune 100 company; he isn't Lou Gerstner, he isn't Larry Ellison, he isn't Steve Jobs, he isn't even Tom Monaghan. He's even less qualified than Barack Obama was, which was pretty unqualified, and just as I said four years ago, being black isn't a credential. Herman Cain is a great candidate for the Kansas governorship. As a Presidential candidate, he's a joke. Like Santorum, his eyes are bigger than his stomach.

E.M. Davis said...

Someone in the audience at this Republican debate yelled out "YES!" to the question of whether a 30-year-old uninsured man should be allowed to die if he's in an accident. At the last one, they cheered for the hundreds of executions in Texas. Doesn't seem very "pro-life." It's more like, a 30-year-old has had his chance. Save the cells. Save the embryos.

Well, I'm sure we all agree with "someone" in lockstep.

edutcher said...

roesch-voltaire said...

Once again Paul nails the folly of the neo-con wars, and Huntsman has a serious tax plan, but no one will listen. Cheer for those who die because they have no insurance, and Rick can be bought. That's all folks.

Yes, that whole American Empire dodge worked so well for the Lefties in the 60s.

Paul, like a lot of the die-hard followers of Ayn Rand's selfishness doctrine, doesn't want his money spent on defense. Like Roesch, he's counting on his tin foil hat to keep him safe.

Saint Croix said...

Garage, it was one really loud guy. He shouted, "Yes!" He definitely wanted that hypothetical guy without any health insurance to die.

Ron Paul gave a very fine answer, I thought. He said, let the charities take him in, let the Catholic hospital do it. Which is an appropriate libertarian response.

Cheering for his death seemed beyond ghoulish. Some Republicans are indeed assholes, sorry to say.

Simon said...

Chris Althouse Cohen said...
"Someone in the audience at this Republican debate yelled out "YES!" to the question of whether a 30-year-old uninsured man should be allowed to die if he's in an accident. At the last one, they cheered for the hundreds of executions in Texas. Doesn't seem very "pro-life." It's more like, a 30-year-old has had his chance. Save the cells. Save the embryos."

I think Mary Katherine Ham had the best rejoinder to that talking point on twitter: "Recap: Unidentified audience member yells 'yeah,' characterizes movement. Labor leader introing Pres by saying take SOBs out MEANS NOTHING." She's got the best of that one.

What I found more disturbing was the audience's amazing willingness to cheer for the proposition that Ben Bernanke had committed treason. That was deeply disturbing.

As to the death penalty, I don't know what the law in Texas is. Chris, you lived there for a while, can you enlighten me? I know that its death penalty law is grotesque and in desperate need of changing (see Evangelium Vitae, no. 56 (John Paul II, 1995)), but how much involvement in the death penalty does the governor have, practically?

Pastafarian said...

ed: " he's counting on his tin foil hat to keep him safe."

A lot of good that will do him, against a bull shark with a fifty watt Nd:Yag laser on its head.

JAL said...

Don't know if this matters -- Cain was a member of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City in 1992 and served as its chairman from January 1995 to August 1996. That's more than BHO did.

Seven Machos said...

Peter Hoh -- When I saw the part about over-litigation in Texas, I was also skeptical. Texas is home to some great trial lawyers who, we can rest assured, are very litigious.

I will be generous and assume that there has been some useful tort reform in Texas, and that's what Perry means.

Also, the fact is that trial lawyers serve a valuable social function. Further, it is not just their greed that propels them; they have a duty to represent clients zealously. That's the term of art: zealously. Legislatures and governors must also force responsibility onto the court system.

AJ Lynch said...

Simon:
I agree if you were suggesting Dalia Lithwick is the dolt.

And acually, Cain's 999 plan would bring in approximately $1.3-$1.4 trillion in tax revenue which exceeds what we get today from income taxes.

traditionalguy said...

Perry had a rested demeanor this time. His basic kindness showed through all of his macho phrases.

Jindal endorsed Perry, and Bobby can talk up a storm on intelligent reasons.

Cain continues to be the same Herman that I have known for years. He is a good man.

Saint Croix said...

Doesn't seem very "pro-life."

Well, the Republicans kill convicted murderers, and the Democrats kill babies. I suspect both sides have innocent blood on our hands. (Your side has more).

Bender said...

Every word out of Romney's mouth alienates me further. He also daily justifies me putting him on the ESAD list three years ago.

Simon said...

Saint Croix said...
"Some Republicans are indeed assholes, sorry to say."

Yes, some of us are. Republicans are a subset of people, and many people are assholes. It follows that many Republicans will be assholes. Some democrats are, too. I find that it breaks down roughly even between the parties. I think George Carlin had the right take: The only advantage to living by the water is that then you're only surrounded by assholes on three sides. The trick, though, is to love your asshole brother. That's one thing we're charged with doing.

Seven Machos said...

Roesch -- These neo-con wars sure are going splendidly under Obama, huh? Expanding even!

Again, your ressentiment is showing.

JAL said...

@ vicki from pasadena They will be just as effective or ineffective as the previous presidents.

It's pretty much a done deal that whoever gets elected will be more effective than the present POTUS.

wv chinera
Chimera with an n.

edutcher said...

Simon said...
edutcher said...
"I'd hardly call Herman Cain a dolt."

I would call him someone who is fundamentally not a serious candidate for the Presidency of the United States. Four years ago, I said that Barack Obama was ludicrously unqualified to be President, having accrued only a few years in a state legislature, a few in the federal legislature, and none at all in executive positions. I pointed out (to some derision, I might add) that of everyone on both tickets, Sarah Palin had more relevant experience than all three men put together. Well, I meant it. And I don't change my mind just to suit immediate political expediency, which makes unavoidable the conclusion that Herman Cain is a joke. The man has no legislative experience, and little significant executive experience. Yes, experience in the private sector can substitute for experience in government, as a general point, but I refuse to pretend that we don't know that his private sector experience is in running a small pizza chain. Godfather's isn't a fortune 100 company; he isn't Lou Gerstner, he isn't Larry Ellison, he isn't Steve Jobs, he isn't even Tom Monaghan. He's even less qualified than Barack Obama was, which was pretty unqualified, and just as I said four years ago, being black isn't a credential. Herman Cain is a great candidate for the Kansas governorship. As a Presidential candidate, he's a joke. Like Santorum, his eyes are bigger than his stomach.


No. He's no joke. And he's certainly more qualified than Barack Obama - three years ago or now.

He may not, in fact, be ready for the Presidency, but his economic proposals make sense and he's worth a hearing. And because Godfather's wasn't a Fortune 100 company is irrelevant. Some people will say Perry's experience in small business makes him more qualified than Milton's experience on Wall Street.

Legislative experience certainly isn't a qualifier, either, as we found out with the last 2 Democrat nominees.

Simply because Simon wants some Libertarian wet dream instead of a Conservative doesn't make Herman Cain a joke.

Simon, maybe.

AJ Lynch said...

Christopher- you must lack the logic gene. Executing killers does not equate to pro-life beliefs. Innocent fetuses do not equate to those convicted of capital crimes.

Tim said...

"8:01 —A young guys asks a classic question: "Out of every dollar that I earn, how much do you think I deserve to keep?""

Great question, wrong people to ask.

Alternative question for the tax-you-until-you're-poor-Democrats: "Out of every dollar that I earn, why must the state and federal governments take theirs first, before I get mine?"

Henry said...

Huntsman has a serious tax plan, but no one will listen.

I guess that's true in a literal sense. I like Huntsman's tax plan. I really agree with it. But it's a tax plan in a vacuum. Which isn't really serious.

It is nice to have it out there.

Seeing Red said...

Lets' face it, if you choose to be uninsured and you get sick, you die. They don't care. Thanks Michelle, Ron, Rick. And you people talk about Obamacare being bad. This is 10 times worse.



Yes, Vicki, because until 2 years ago, everyone who didn't have insurance died.


Just because you have insurance, doesn't mean you will get the treatment you need when you need it.

See those countries who've had it decades longer & free-ride off of us.

Except that we're broke, they're broke & they have to change their systems as well, they're becoming more like ours.

The system you think everyone who doesn't have insurance dies.

Seven Machos said...

I do love the pro-life arguments from leftists. Especially those who support abortion.

P.J. O'Rourke put it perfectly. I paraphrase: only from leftist pro-abortion types do we get the hilarious argument that you can be killed at any point before you come out of the womb but, once you are on earth, you must live, no matter how heinous you are, preferably as a serf under the yoke of self-appointed elites. philosopher kings.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

I will be generous and assume that there has been some useful tort reform in Texas, and that's what Perry means.

Texas put some significant caps on medical malpractice cases. I don't recall the details, but it's definitely been touted as a win for doctors- they've had a huge increase in the number of doctors coming to the state. I'm not sure of the rest of the numbers (and I'm skeptical of the idea of malpractice caps as effective tort reform to some degree.)

yashu said...

Cheering for his death seemed beyond ghoulish. Some Republicans are indeed assholes, sorry to say.

If he even is a Republican. When "one really loud guy" (as opposed to a larger crowd reaction) gets attention for stuff like this, I always suspect the possibility of offline mobyism (whatever the name for that is).

Cf. stuff reportedly shouted at Palin rallies in the last election.

Of course, many Republicans are assholes, as humans are wont to be. But when singular "Republicans" shout things for the cameras at campaign events which just happen to confirm DNC talking points, they just might be non-Republican assholes, too.

garage mahal said...

I do love the pro-life arguments from leftists. Especially those who support abortion.

So you think only Democrats get abortions?

Seven Machos said...

So you think only Democrats get abortions?

Garage -- Look real hard for the word "Democrat" in my post.

Look also for any statement or implication about who gets abortions.

I'll wait.

Henry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Henry said...

Seeing Red wrote: Just because you have insurance, doesn't mean you will get the treatment you need when you need it.

Yes, and under Obamacare, people who choose not to have insurance retain that right. Except they have to a pay a penalty to not have insurance. By vicki's logic, that means they die anyway, but poorer.

Simon said...

AJ Lynch said...
Simon:
"I agree if you were suggesting Dalia Lithwick is the dolt."

Oh, not at all. I love Dahlia Lithwick. Well, I like Dahlia Lithwick a lot; I love her writing. I'm not taking anything away from JCG—who is very good but much more serious in tone—when I tell you that Lithwick is one of the best Supreme Court correspondents. She has a great, great gift for presenting the court's doings in a way that's accessible to laymen and enlivening for those of us who follow the court more closely, without (usually) adding distortion. I only wish she batted for my team!

As to the underlying point, lookit, the American economy at this point in time is built on consumption. Taxes discourage the taxed activity, M'Culloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. 316, 431 (1819), so I can't understand what the sense is in discouraging the primary activity of our economy. I appreciate Cain's willingness to reform the tax code, which is admirable and correct, but I'm a conservative. I don't believe in raising taxes. We should be cutting spending to the level of taxation we deem appropriate, which I hope we can all agree is significantly lower than the current level of federal taxation.

America's Politico said...

The debate had no teeth. GOP is screwed. There are like deers with headlights.

POTUS Obama gets re-elected by over 70%.

GOP loses WH, Senate, and House.

George said...

"Lithwick is one of the best Supreme Court correspondents."

You've got to be joking. She is appalling hack.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Oh, I meant to mention- I was listening to them interview Debbie W. Schultz before the debate, and she sounded EXACTLY like America's Politico. It was amazing. Has anyone ever seen the two of them together?

Peter Hoh said...

Seven, yes, Texas instituted some medical tort reforms. Like you say, it's not as if Texas has eliminated lawsuits. Perhaps someone has tried to measure the extent to which one state is more prone to litigation than another, but I wouldn't know how to go about it.

Dustin said...

Chris Althouse Cohen said...
"Someone in the audience at this Republican debate yelled out "YES!"

Easily the most pathetic think to try to make a point off of.

Yeah, one guy in the audience was a jackass. He probably was clumsily trying to make the point that if you don't take care of yourself, you will suffer consequences, and it's best to know that. Cheering for metaphorical people is a stupid way to say that. Obviously that isn't a representation of the right or anyone in that debate. Not even Ron Paul.

Let's just be honest, this is a typical thing axe grinders do. Find some completely ancillary person to associate with a movement.

For example, Cohen Althouse boy wants to associate this random shouter with the pro-life movement.

I guess he's got a long held problem with social conservatives, hence the need for the truly unfair association.

Same for the death penalty clapping, which was not about death. It was about cheering justice, which is denied in California. I don't see why one would compare the random 'yeah' guy with those applauding justice in a state where democrats habitually deny justice.

WestVirginiaRebel said...

I think Huntsman was at his most honest and blunt about Afghanistan. Romney benefited from the immigration question. Gingrich was feisty especially with Wolf on subsidies and his GE response.

Simon said...

edutcher said...
"No. He's no joke. And he's certainly more qualified than Barack Obama - three years ago or now."

He is neither more qualified than Obama three years ago, as I've already explained, nor, still less, now, after Obama has a term as President under his belt. One can make the argument that Cain would be a better President than Obama with a straight face, and I would agree, but the experience argument is now untenable if it ever was.

"He may not, in fact, be ready for the Presidency, but his economic proposals make sense and he's worth a hearing. And because Godfather's wasn't a Fortune 100 company is irrelevant."

No, it isn't. Experience in business can substitute for government experience, without doubt, but running a pizza chain with a few hundred branches and a few thousand employees is not even remotely analogous to running the federal government. Someone who has headed a fortune 500 company, who has experience helming a ship with a number of employees comparable to the federal government or a state can seriously make that argument. Rudy Giuliani can make that argument because New York City is sui generis. Herman Cain can't. He ran a pizza joint. Get real.

"Legislative experience certainly isn't a qualifier, either, as we found out with the last 2 Democrat nominees."

I completely agree.

"Simply because Simon wants some Libertarian wet dream instead of a Conservative doesn't make Herman Cain a joke."

Ah, the continued persistence in the false belief that I'm a libertarian. You've run out of viable rejoinders already, huh?

Saint Croix said...

The cracks on Cain and pizza totally reminds me of the cracks on Reagan as an actor. Bedtime for Bonzo = 9 pizzas for 9 dollars!

I wish Cain was running for Governor somewhere. He's very able in the debate format--a far better candidate than Donald Trump would have been--but I would like to see some kind of record. Federal Reserve is not enough. And I am getting a strong performance vibe from him, like this is a public persona he is constructing for us. I would like to hear him talk in a normal voice, and confide in us. Quit playing for the cameras. Or at least don't make it so obvious.

Cain has a history in talk radio and that seems to me far more on point than his history as a pizza chain CEO. He's very comfortable with words and talking and playing to an audience. But that's not nearly the same thing as being the President of the U.S.A.

Saint Croix said...

The "Ronulan" term for a Ron Paul supporter cracks me up. It's childish of me to enjoy it. But that's a really good insult.

jimbino said...

Too bad Ron Paul isn't running for President of the World, since his correct reasoning that Amerika has brought most of its misery upon itself (while spreading even more around the rest of humanity) is so shared by Asians, Africans, Latins and a hell of a lot of Europeans.

Peter Hoh said...

I agree with Simon upthread. If Cain wants to show that he'd make a good president, he ought to serve as governor first.

I'm not sure I want to make it a constitutional requirement for the office, but it seems to be a reasonable expectation.

Simon said...

George said...
"[Simon said that Lithwick is one of the best Supreme Court correspondents.] You've got to be joking. She is appalling hack.

Not in the slightest. She has a vivid and accessible writing style that does a great job of conveying what the court's done to lay readers while being entertaining and enjoyable for those of us who follow it quite closely. Does she have a viewpoint? Of course. She's very good at that, too. Just because she's playing for what is, in my view the wrong team, however, takes nothing away from her skill. [Insert sports metaphor of your choice here.]

Tim said...

"You must live in a pretty ideal world. Well, the rest of us live in the real world."

No one who voted for Obama can claim they live in the real world.

Seven Machos said...

Simon -- Aren't you the person who was so passionately pushing for Palin as vice president for McCain?

AJ Lynch said...

If a man with Cain's experience needs to be a governor first, what pray tell would a candidate with Senator Obama's slim experience need to do?


wv = folli

Seven Machos said...

what pray tell would a candidate with Senator Obama's slim experience need to do?

Be a governor first. It's no coincidence that the best presidents tend to have been governors. It's training for the job.

Simon said...

Saint Croix said...
"The cracks on Cain and pizza totally reminds me of the cracks on Reagan as an actor. Bedtime for Bonzo = 9 pizzas for 9 dollars!"

Reagan had been a governor, though, so the comparison is inapt.

Saint Croix said...

This was my first time hearing Ron Paul. I was like this: "Oh no, he sounds normal. He's funny. He's likable. He smiles. He's a good guy. He's like my grandfather. I like him. Nice guy." And then he cites Osama Bin Laden. And I'm like this, "You dumb fucking fuckwit fucker. Boooooooooooo, you motherfucking fuckhead fuck."

Simon said...

Seven Machos said...
"Simon -- Aren't you the person who was so passionately pushing for Palin as vice president for McCain?"

Yes, and I'll defend that to the day I die. Palin put McCain within striking distance of victory when everything pointed to crushing defeat. That McCain still blew it and lost—by a narrow margin, by the way; don't let Obama supporters con you with that landslide lie—doesn't change that. Palin made the ticket a contender again. Everything we have learned since, all the reevaluations and rethinking in the cold light of day, convince me that it was the right call even if it wasn't enough.

MayBee said...

I agree with Simon upthread. If Cain wants to show that he'd make a good president, he ought to serve as governor first.

I don't think Cain can necessarily be a good president, but he is a fine candidate. If there is anything we've learned in the past 3 years, it is the huge difference between the two.

Cain won't win but he has good things to say in debates, and so I support his candidacy. No reason to belittle him or try to narrow the debate field too quickly.

Simon said...

AJ Lynch said...
"If a man with Cain's experience needs to be a governor first, what pray tell would a candidate with Senator Obama's slim experience need to do?"

A governorship, a term leading a major agency, perhaps a tour as a general office (were that possible), or a few years successfully running a major private enterprise.

Cain's experience, again, is in running a minor restaurant chain with a few hundred outlets and a few thousand staff and maybe a million in turnover (I used to know the number, but I forget; it wasn't significant). Bill Gates he ain't.

Peter Hoh said...

AJ, assuming your 10:34 comment was aimed at me, yes, Obama should have served a term or two as governor before running for the presidency.

Also, I'd like it if we could have a string of presidents who didn't go to Yale or Harvard.

Simon said...

MayBee said...
"Cain won't win but he has good things to say in debates, and so I support his candidacy. No reason to belittle him or try to narrow the debate field too quickly."

I strongly dissent.

Cedarford said...

Saint Croix said...
Garage, it was one really loud guy. He shouted, "Yes!" He definitely wanted that hypothetical guy without any health insurance to die.

Ron Paul gave a very fine answer, I thought. He said, let the charities take him in, let the Catholic hospital do it. Which is an appropriate libertarian response.

Cheering for his death seemed beyond ghoulish. Some Republicans are indeed assholes, sorry to say.

=================
The problem with the libertarians, the insistance we just do what we did 100 years ago and rely on kindly doctors and Christian charities to suck up the bills for the indigent and freeloaders? That ideology does not have much chance of surviving te encounter with reality if they get their way.

What would a libertarian do about a situation where most people opted out of health insurance to save themselves 4,000 -13,000 a yer. And still demanded doctors and hospitals and charities pay instead? Then the help was turned down and the Freedom Lover died on the streets - no charity or quarter granted when it got to the point where no doctor or hospital could survive caring for everyone wanting to become a free rider?

Would liberarians demand care from someone rather than rotting corpses left in the street where they were let bleed out? Say they had the Freedom to turn away a Freedom LOver opting out of healthcare - would there be any coercive way to force someone to treat a free rider? Not just an accident victim but a 60K a year free rider that finds she has treatable breast cancer, 18K to her name, and the treatment costs 200K - and no tapped out charities or doctors or hospitals coming forth saying they will pay the other 182K?

Seven Machos said...

There's no way that McCain was going to win. Palin wasn't ready for prime time and would have been far better served as a politician to build up a resume like Bill Clinton was able to, and then burst onto the national scene, as she is obviously as electrifying.

McCain would have been better served to pick some experienced person, even though I doubt he was going to win under any circumstances. It was a coronation.

I figured you slunk away forever, though. Good to have you back.

mtm1259 said...

I, contrary to Vicky from Pasadena (now there's a beacon of economic oppotunity!) don't want a politician who "cares about me" . I want politicians who wont rob me blind to buy votes from the lazy and stupid. I want politicians who wont hobble my enterprise to pander to eco- nuts who somehow believe they have a say in how I use my property. I want politicians who don't imagine new rights not enumerated in the Constitution but ignore rights clearly outlined therein. I want politicians who have the simple decency to not openly try and bribe me with charity from a public purse that was never intended for such purposes. I want a Madison or an Adams, not a Carter or an Obama. It's amazing how difficult that is to acheive.

Phil 3:14 said...

Broncos not looking so good....

Oh, what? Wrong thread?

Calypso Facto said...

Re: D. Lithwick
Simon said...
Just because she's playing for what is, in my view the wrong team, however, takes nothing away from her skill.

She only has skill in the way that Anna Quindlen has skill; they are popular because they appeal to those who value emotion over logic and clear thought.

Her addition to Quinlen at Newsweek was the final proof to me that that magazine was no longer serious about credible news reporting.

Carol_Herman said...

The train that's gonna come from some Independent movement ... is gonna PLOW DOWN THIS FIELD!

I don't think it will be called the BULL MOOSE PARTY. But just like then, where Taft came in 3rd ... that's the fight I expect to see.

And, I expect it to be a BUSINESSMAN. NOT A POLITICIAN. He won't be Santa Claus. He won't be wearing a red suit. (And, he won't have a laminated "contract with America" in his breast pocket, either.)

Peter Hoh said...

I'm with Seven on this issue, Simon. I thought McCain was making ground by hammering on experience. After picking Palin, he stopped pressing Obama on the the experience issue.

I think McCain should have picked Tom Ridge and put Pennsylvania in play.

Seven Machos said...

I want a Madison or an Adams, not a Carter or an Obama. It's amazing how difficult that is to acheive.

Bush I and II, Clinton, and Reagan were great presidents, easily on par collectively with any group of four presidents in a 30-year sequence of time.

It was Bono -- usually a pretty bad poet -- who said: We glorify the past when the future dries up. Pretty good line. Don't get caught up in the myths of history. That gets a people nowhere.

Saint Croix said...

Reagan had been a governor, though, so the comparison is inapt.

It's weird to attack somebody's job. We did it with Carter, too. "Peanut farmer." And Tom Delay. "Exterminator." They did it with Truman. "Haberdasher."

I would like to see more government experience from Cain, but in general I think scoffing at people's resumes is pretty lame.

Nothing preps you for the Presidency. If you're a Senator you have no executive experience and if you're a Governor you're weak on foreign affairs.

McCain had a long history of government service but no executive experience and a rotten temper. (Read Game Change for some hair-raising stories). The best thing he did was pick Sarah Palin out of obscurity and give her a huge boost to the White House in 2012. So kudos for that.

Nothing preps you for it. You either step up to the challenge or fail miserably. I look at their character and try to guess who would be great at the job, but it is a guess so don't kid yourself about that.

Peter Hoh said...

mtm1259: I want politicians who wont rob me blind to buy votes.

See Medicare, Part D.

Seven Machos said...

Cain isn't going to be president. I do hope he gets a nice cabinet position.

Commerce? He can do a good job and eliminate the Department, then tackle something else.

MayBee said...

I strongly dissent.

As I do with your opinion.

There is a wide variety of political opinion in this country. Much of it doesn't fit neatly into one of the two major parties, even though it is only one of the two major party candidates who legitimately has a chance of winning an election (not just the presidency). Pre-primary and early primary debates are a good time to let the variety of opinions get their airing.
Shutting out a Hermain Cain or even a Ron Paul just tells the people who like what they have to say that their ideas are not welcome. A strong candidate should be able to explain to those voters why their own positions are worth considering.

Carol_Herman said...

All you need is a smidgen over 50% to win.

Europe's gonna hit the headwinds of depression before we do! The bankers in Dusseldorf think they can own the world through Belgium.

And, Turkey is LOSING its ass in debt!

So take your pick between all the loser countries. All Obama has to do is stand still.

At least he didn't allow Cairo to become is Tehran. (Somebody must have talked some sense into him!)

Again. If he just stays out of the fights the beligerents are throwing ... he can win. By achieving the 50% mark. And, the electoral college.

Is Wisconsin a toss up? YES.

Is Florida? DITTO.

The contest will be close.

And, the biggest fights will be for senate seats. (The House belongs to Boehner!) Even if Pelosi runs, she's not going to stay in her Minority seat! She'll claim it for the democraps. And, resign.

A republican house can scare Obama real good, too. The breeze he had to his back in 2008 is gone.

Carol_Herman said...

Meryl Streep will probably win an Oscar, in April. For her portrayal of THE IRON LADY.

Hollywood will help Obama shift to the middle.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

I think tonight's debate was a bust. DIE HARD FANS. No new viewers. And, the kids don't care for the republicans.

Seven Machos said...

I have no problem with having as many candidates as want to join the race. I applaud Herman Cain and Ron Paul and all these other people who have no chance to win. Quite seriously.

Seven Machos said...

And, the kids don't care for the republicans.

Oh no. How will Republicans ever win the presidency again? Without the all-important youth vote?

Saint Croix said...

And the reason we keep electing Governors is not so much "executive experience" but because we want outsiders untainted by Washington.

The basic problem with "experience" with power is that power corrupts you. And the longer you are in D.C., the more liberal you probably are.

When Republicans start talking about "experience," I'm like this: "Oh no, some fucker wants to put Kissinger on a blue ribbon fucking panel, that fuck."

Or it's James Fucking Baker with his Green Power Tie. Time Magazine once did a cover story on James Baker and his Green Power Tie. Oh yeah, he's experienced. He and his fucking tie. I have never been so astounded by the stupidity of know-it-alls. He literally thought his tie made a difference.

So, yeah, experience is good. Up until they have become soulless whore bureaucrats who are now part of the permanent ruling class.

If that's my choice, I'd rather have an amateur.

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