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UNITED STILL BREAKS GUITARSAnd, traveling with anything expensive and rare ... just puts it into the hands of Customs. And/or the TSA.Now, how did Gibson get in so much trouble, again? Is Fish and Game on par with Firearms and Tobacco?Have we driven the worst criminals into Federal jobs ... where they carry badges ... and go after innocent people?Is there any way out of this mess?
I'm just shocked, SHOCKED, I tell ya, that there might be even the HINT of political favoritism and/or corruption going on in a Barack "Chicago-Way" Obama Administration..
I am not a paranoid type. I don't believe in conspiracies. But, if there is a pattern. If you are a big donar to Democrats, you get favors. GE for example. And GM and Chrysler. If you are tied to Republicans, you get a different kind of attention from the government.
virgil, that's what it is. The Chicago Way.
Another example? When Wisconsin turned down the Hiawatha extension to Madison, the Federal funds were divided up to other rail projects. Fine, makes sense. Wisconsin asked for some of the money to be used to bolster the existing Hiawatha line. Obama said no, but then gave some of the money to Minnesota, for a project that will never occur (the Mpls - Duluth proposal). Trust me, there is no way that line will ever get built, but Obama sent them money anyway as a big FU to Governor Walker.
I haven't own a Gibson since my old EB-3 bass that had so many dead spots on the neck I named it after an ex-girlfriend. Might have to get an L-5 for the studio just as a show of solidarity.
Obama and Soros have turned the USA into an open Nazi Party operation, and he is proud of that.Amazing!They can harrass the non contributors to the Party out of business in the name of any noble sounding hoax and we are helpless.I blame the Congressional barons who made Ear Marks into a normal thing.Between Palin and Perry that is the difference that will count. Perry uses pay to play. But Palin is Tea Party.
This makes me sick. I should be used to stuff like this, but for some reason this one elicits an extra dose of disgust.
I think we just passed the high crimes and misdemeanors threshold.
Never mind ulterior motives, the ostensible motives for enforcement are blatantly protectionist in favor of India.I'd say Obama's got a festering PR problem on many fronts.From the Gibson press release:The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.)
Call from Obama 2012 campaign: "Nice little business you've got there. Be a shame if the DOJ happened to it."
It will be interesting to see how the MSM handles this.
In all seriousness, if the decision to prosecute this originated in the Oval Office, Obama needs to be impeached. This is inexcusable.
Charlie said...It will be interesting to see how the MSM handles this.Zero chance MSM picks this up.
Coincidence - no such thing, is there?
On second thought, a Gibson guitar?Maybe Obama's DOJ has a point.
This adminstration is corrupt to its very roots--a sorry bunch of bastards all from the president, his first lady and the officials in the administration.sorry bastards all--but more pathetic is the MSMs culpability in fronting for these sorry MoFosthe country is truly fucked
Hey--but other than that, I had a great day on the golf course
“Why would the government use armed agents to attack one of the few major manufacturers of anything remaining in the United States?” It’s like they don’t want to see the economy recover or something.From Instapundit.That about sums it up, doesn't it?I own Martins and Gibsons. I didn't check for party affiliation when I purchased them.
MSM will cover this when they cover the electrical company owner who was shot in Michigan last week by a union dolt.
What the DoJ should be doing is buying a bunch of Gibson Les Pauls and SGs and sending them to Mexico.Then wait around in the blues and rock bars - see if we can flush out some guitar playing gang members.
This is no surprise. The same thing happened with car dealers that were shut down. The majority were GOP donors and those that were allowed to stay open tended to be DNC donors.That made no sense because small business owners that donate to Democrats are crooks or daft.
tradguy Godwinned the thread and none of you fucktards care. You all sicken me.
"I own Martins and Gibsons. I didn't check for party affiliation when I purchased them."EVERYTHING MUST BE POLITICIZED!
How sick, Alex? Sick enough to maybe aspirate on your own vomit? traditionalguy, post another, similar comment!
Who died and made Godwin boss?Fuck him!Anyone that cites Godwin put a thread in the toilet IMHO.
Why are you all stalking the CEO of Martin? The way people want to know what this administration is up to is just creepy.Minitrue says, "Shut up and eat your peas."
Palladian - good Hendrix reference. But if we are going to include Jimi in the discussion, where does Fender sit on the political spectrum? What's this, they have a manufacturing plant in Mexico? Interesting, but off topic. Or is it?
Again, a total waste of government resources. Who cares where they get their wood from as long as the guitars sound great.This is a perfect example of why our economy is screwed up. Draconian regulatory agencies and an Inquisition style DOJ.
Was it crooked? Yep.Was it wrong? Yep.But.... That's the Chicago Way... the Obama way.. The MOB way..And what the short sighted Democrats don't' see is what goes around comes around. A day will come with a elected leader, neither Democrat or Republican, will use this against the whole populace, JUST AS HITLER DID. Way to go Barry!2012 can't come to soon.
What Michael Barone called the Obama Thugocracy.
Ask a Texas about partisanship in the Obama administration! Wildfires and floods ignored!Shuttle Orbiters go elsewhere!Border security? Forget it?The President is a small and petty man! He will go down in history as THE most partisan President.
Nothing to look at here, move on.The Obama thugocracy continues. Most corrupt and incompetent administration ever. Yet the mindless useful idiots, like J and garbage will defend them to the end. Viva Il Duce!!
"Anyone that cites Godwin put a thread in the toilet IMHO."I long ago gave up on correcting people about "Godwin's Law", but since it's been mentioned several times, and since I have little to do now that NYC is completely closed... Godwin's Law does not say anything about a discussion being ended by a reference to Nazi Germany. It merely posits that: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1". That's it! It was merely a humorous insight about internet discussions and probability, made over 20 years ago. It's completely neutral as to whether such references are good or bad, and says nothing about discussions being ended by such comparisons. The misapplication and misunderstanding of this "law" is ridiculous; there is nothing inherently wrong with making comparisons or observations about something as historically important as Nazi Germany.Thank you.
Did anyone mention the NRLB decision in SC? Non-union jobs are NOT jobs to these thugs!
It's meant as a message to business not to donate to Republicans.
Huh. I don't get it.It's a violation of the Lacy Act to import this wood, if it's not finished before it's shipped?Can any of you ever-so-smart liberal lawyerly types explain this? You don't even have to defend it; just explain it.There's a link to an article about a businesswoman who was sentenced to 2 years in federal prison because she imported lobsters in clear plastic bags; and apparently Honduran law forbade this, at some point in the past. So she was sentenced to prison by an American court.For importing lobsters in clear plastic bags.This is insanity.
Anyone can legally buy Ebony. I just had a bunch of it inlayed into some custom furniture.Until I read the earlier Althouse link re Gibson I didn't realize that it was possible to buy the stuff from illegal sources. That's probably a lot less expensive that the route I (and maybe Martin) took. Legal Ebony ain't cheap.
It's meant as a message to business not to donate to Republicans.And not the first.
Chicago politics from Pennsylvania Ave.
"It's a violation of the Lacy Act to import this wood, if it's not finished before it's shipped?"The stuff I bought (about a month ago) was not finished.But, Ebony does come w/ a wax coating which is intended to keep it from checking/splitting when exposed to air.BTW, I know of a wood shop in Seattle that (about twenty years ago) had a stump of Ebony for sale. It was about twenty inches in diameter, and forty inches tall. Back then it sold for nine grand.
I have a beautiful ebony board. I've had it for years... someday I'll figure out what to do with it.Hope I don't get my door kicked down by federal thugs or anything.
Okey Dokey.But what happens if te schlemiel wins a second term?
Most human frailties are common to Democrats and Republicans. One can find notable examples of venality among all races, religions, and political persuasions. I suppose one can argue that people on the left are more apt to sexually abuse their children, but most other vices appear to be distributed at random throughout the populace.....Where liberals surpass all others, however, is their ability to spin the vices of their opponents into the works of King Beelzebub on his high throne and their own shortcomings into the stuff of our common clay. The optics of this look very bad, but optics only apply to the sighted. Sure, there will be a segment on Fox News, but who really watches For News. The major networks will find that the Big Story is Obama's masterful handling of the Libyan crisis. Any attempt to draw the public's attention away from the Big Story is obfuscatory at best and more likely racist.....Has there ever been a group of people more self righteous about their own paltry, withered virtues than the liberals of our era?
Well, when you’ve got a President who jokes about tax audits as revenge for a personal slight, it’s hard not to be suspicious, isn’t it?This is why an astute President never jokes about such things. But this is not a very astute President.
"Never mind ulterior motives, the ostensible motives for enforcement are blatantly protectionist in favor of India."Yes. It seems as though the Feds put more effort into saving jobs in India than in the U.S.
From criminalized lemonade stands to Gibson, it's getting scary--even if you take all these anecdotes with a grain of salt.Oh, and my warning from code enforcement to CEASE WATERING as it's the wrong time of day! At least they didn't bring SWAT.
so apparently donating to Democrats is like 'protection money'.
Obama is literally tone deaf.
These days, I just wish that everyone targeted would Go Galt. The Feds crack down on your guitar company? Fine. Announce that you're halting guitar production (to be resumed when producers are not penalized for their productivity). Hell, don't even announce it. Just quietly go on strike.
@Chuck66: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't picking on you. They are not mutually exclusive and neither is skeptisism about vast right/left wing conspiracies and the fact that people conspire to advance themselves, and that may mean running over those that get in the way...otherwise known as the loyal opposition.
My Godwin comment was aimed atAlex [Or is that Titus 2.0?]. Your explanation was fine to begin with. And the sentiments behind comment about vomit aspiration were shared by many.
Gibson is important to Nashville. I told my 16-year-old daughter, who is performing her first show just blocks from the Gibson factory on Saturday, about the raid. Her response: "Are you serious? That's so Stalin." She was shocked and horrified. I don't think Obama is going to retain many fans in the 15-25 group around here after this.
It just occurred to me to check in with guitar afficionado Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs to get his take on the Gibson raid.Crickets.
I'm somewhat afraid to say this but I have some rosewood pen blanks for woodturning that I bought from the company at the link. I hope garbage, j or one of those other liberal fascist can't figure out who I am and where I live and turn me in.Viva Il Duce!!!
The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.)I think the key here is the search warrant.I am assuming, Federal agents don't raid a private business without a search warrnet. It's not as though they are in hot felony pursuit of ebony.So they needed to present the warrant. And to get the warrant, they had to make representations that a Fedral law had been broken and that there was evidence at the warrant location, so:1. what law?2. who made the claim?3. which judge granted it?4. what does the judge think of enforcing Indian law without a request from India?5. did the US attorney or the FBI misrepresent the circumstances?
This is more than just a partisan idiocy. Stupid bans on wood for guitars go back a lot further. Here's my take on it:http://themusicsalon.blogspot.com/2011/08/guitar-wars.html
if the decision to prosecute this originated in the Oval Office, Obama needs to be impeached.The Party of Government doesn't need his OK to punish its enemies and reward its friends.
I am looking forward to the GOP taking over the DOJ, so they can put the current DOJ in prison
The Chicago way.Alive and well in the corridors of American gov't today.Congrats to all the Zero voters who fell hook, line and sinker.Duh.
Congrats to all the Zero voters who fell hook, line and sinker.BUT MCCAIN WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE!!!!1!!1!!!
I was just planning on buying a new Martin guitar this week. Never owned one, but always wanted to. The government just cost them a customer, and I probably would become a loyal one. I never would have even thought of looking at a Gibson acoustic, but now I will, and I'll buy one if they're decent. An excellent Gibson ad is there for the making. Even lefties have to hate this kind of corruption. Naaa, probably not a problem for them.
@murgatroyd"BUT MCCAIN WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE!!!!1!!1!!!"By what measure?Unless you are clairvoyant, you should shut your hole, yesterday.I understand McCain is also human and not perfect, but Zero, he aint.Barry the poseur is bad for America. Joe the Plumber would have been an upgrade.No shit.
I want to thank everyone who voted in this administration with the notion what it might be good for the country to see if this socialism thing would work and if not, hopefully guide the country back to pretty much where it was going in the first place. I hope you're proud of your political experiment. This ain't a lab, it's real life.
Any musicians here have an informed opinion about Gibson acoustic guitars?
"sorepaw said...Not a word from Garage or R-V on the Gibson raid—or the Martin non-raid."Garage and RV both think it's an outrage Prescott Bush wasn't prosecuted for arming the Nazis.
"This ain't a lab, it's real life."If it was a lab, the analogy would be having the 2008 experimenters choose to try making gold from lead. We just need to try it one more time to make sure it doesn't work,...and we're gonna spend all of our grant money to do it. It's the only way to know for sure.
I personally like Martin acoustic guitars better than Gibson acoustic guitars, but I must say that after this incident, I'm half tempted to buy a Les Paul just to show my support.However, I already have a Moog guitar, so it may be overkill.
By what measure?Shit, don't ask me. Ask the lady with the Cruel Neutrality™ who voted for the incompetent thug in 2008 and who very likely will vote for him again in 2012.(What, you mean the Pratchettized exclamation marks didn't clue you in that it was sarcasm?)
"Anyone that cites Godwin put a thread in the toilet IMHO."I always enjoy seeing it cited. I have known Mike (Godwin) for almost 20 years now, since he was new as counsel for the EFF. Not well, but have been out drinking with him on occasion, esp. back in the mid-1990s, when he would come back to Austin to speak at cyer-law conferences. And, he is on the listserv for the IP committee I chair. I do mention his law to him when I talk to him, which is rare any more. Some way to get fame. But, better than many.
I think that what everyone needs to remember here is that this is not a first, but rather, a part of a pattern. For example, letting the black panthers off after they had stipulated to guilt. Plus, the same DoJ and AG are stonewalling like crazy over the gunwalker/Fast and Furious scandal, lying before Congress, etc. And, it appears that AZ wasn't alone there, as the scandal seems to be extending into NM and TX. Oh, and then they promoted three of the managers involved a week or two ago - either to keep them quiet or to reward them for it.
All I got from this is that the Gibson CEO dropped 2300 on Huckabee in 2007. Conspiracies happen but most of the time conspiracy theories are just nuts.
Any musicians here have an informed opinion about Gibson acoustic guitars?My Gibson J-200 is an absolute gem.Gibson acoustics are voiced quite differently from Martins.Martins tend to be very balanced across the tonal spectrum.Gibson are big on the bottom. If you want to get that heavy bass run sound that is so popular in country music, you've got to go with a Gibson.
@bagoh20: I am a Martin player myself, but they don't have any of my money because I bought mine (long before politics entered into it) second-hand. My advice is, play what you like, and don't let politics affect that choice. If you like Martin, and you don't want to send them money, there's a huge secondary market in Martin guitars, and most people think the older ones are better anyway. If you want to send Gibson money, you can do it without compromising your artistic preference. (This is by no means a knock on Gibson, by the way. They make fine guitars, too, and I would advise any liberal who liked one to buy it.) I appreciate wanting to do something for a company that just got mistreated, but please, don't let's start with politically correct guitars.
It's not a coincidence. That does not mean that Obama ordered the raid, or anything like that, but it's a 100% certainty that the feds check the politics and political affiliations of the people they raid before they go through the door. They would not raid a big Dem donor without lots of checking at higher levels. They would be far less hesitant with a Republican.
Viva Il Duce!!!
Viva Il Duce!!!Viva Il Douche!!!FIFY ...And the guitar factory was raided because some obsequious White House staffer overheard President Obama complaining that the Gibson people were ... turbulent.
bagoh20, I have one of these:http://www.12fret.com/new/Gibson_CF-100E_reissue_guitar_pg.htmlOnly mine is a 1959 model. The electronics are crap by today's standards, but the guitar is one sweet-sounding piece. If you can find one of these little beauties, give it a try.
Hmmm, rosewood and mahogany? I'm afraid we're going to have to see your contribution list, Mark.wv: inympedi, new gag mint with Administration's economic policy depicted on the tin
I sure hope the Feds don't find out about my taxidermal Great Auk mounted on an ebony and rosewood stand...
So the feds raid them in 2011 and it must have been at the direction of Obama and his operatives.When the feds raided them in late 2009 I guess it was also at the explicit direction of Obama and his operatives.The 2009 raid probably took place only after a year or so of intelligence and evidence gathering which would have placed the start of the operation during W's tenure. Gibson has been working with the Rainforest Alliance to promote sustainable harvesting of a variety of exotic woods since the late 1990's.I have no idea if Gibson was in fact trying to skirt the law in order to import the woods that were the subject of the 2009 and 2011 raids or if they just got caught up in some bad paperwork. We'll have to wait and see.Too bad so many folks here seem to think laws trying to regulate trade in many exotic species of wood (and other species of flora and fauna) in order to try and promote a sustainable harvest of same are "stupid".I guess most of you all think we should just go ahead and clearcut all those exotic trees in all corners of the globe just like we should just go ahead and suck all the bluefin tuna out of the ocean.After all if we don't do it the Chinese will eh?
The day the next Republican president is sworn in there needs to be fully armed no knock swat team raids on the homes of every left-wing musician in the country in order to seize any Gibson guitars that might be illegal under Indian law. And should any "contraband" be found in plain sight....well, that would be icing on the cake. They can start with Springsteen (he recorded some of the love letter to Obama "Working on a Dream" record on an acoustic Gibson J-200) just so he can experience what real oppression feels like, not the phony GWB as Hitler meme common to the left-wing fever swamp for the last ten years. Maybe he'll get an album out of it.
Are these our laws or Indian laws?If they are Indian laws, are we sure that it's terrible for our gov to enforce violators?I wonder if trade agreements require as much.For example I would hope that the Chinese gov had the authority to enforce our patent laws against Chinese pirates.**[Obviously when the Chinese gov is itself stealing and using the intellectual property of our companies it's rather naive to expect them to clamp down on pirates. But, you'd think/hope that they'd at least be allowed to (and ideally, obligated to) do so. Or else, what's the point of free trade, when it's free-ride trade for one side?]
Very nice instrument there Mark. Could you get it cleaned up tonight? I have a friend at Moveon who knows a girl who is a booty call for a guy who donated to the Obama campaign. He's gonna make some calls, and there should be someone stopping by tomorrow to pick up that contraband you been strumming.It's gonna sound nice with my Pit Bulls' accompaniment. They love to sing to the sound of vintage tropical wood.And thanks for understanding the cost of being on the wrong side of history. Hope & Change to you, my brother.
Your friend had better be hurricane and Rottweiler-proofed. And there might be other surprises (albeit all of them legal.) But seriously, I love my Gibson. Didn't realized the company had done a re-issue, and finding that it had literally brought tears.
There are many luthiers around this country building excellent guitars. Ther are many "boutique" type guitar builders of various size and fame. They ALL use exotic woods of one type or another. Ebony is used quite often as fretboard material.One does have to take into consideration that something could be amiss with Gibson getting picked on and the owner of Gibson being a conservative.I have a Guild D-25 acoustic with Ebony fretboard and a Gibson ES 335 with Ebony fretboard. I am wondering if I should grow eyes in the back of my head.
Rejoice, Obama supporters, there's your vote at work. And you can't say you didn't know it would affect innocent people, because "the Chicago way" - and his willingness to use it - were well-known before you put Obami in office. So - how's it feel to have radically transformed the country into a gangster paradise? Swell. Enjoy it, y'all:The blow-back is gonna be AWESOME.P.S.When that time comes, please keep all pleas for reason to yourselves, as we have learned our lesson and know you're only joking. Thank you. See you in 2012.
Joanna,These days, I just wish that everyone targeted would Go Galt.I've been suggesting that to doctors, regarding quackery, for some time now but they ain't biting. Westerners, generally, are weird - demanding everything fall apart before they're compelled to act. Probably because those in a position to do something are the most sheltered from the results of their inaction.Cruelty is relative to those who have money.
"I guess most of you all think we should just go ahead and clearcut all those exotic trees in all corners of the globe"...aaannd the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle makes its grand entrance!
The possibilities of the MSM bringing this to the attention of the American people... zero.
but it's a 100% certainty that the feds check the politics and political affiliations of the people they raid before they go through the door.And you know this how? Did the monkeys flying out of your butt tell you this?
Wow Shouting Assclown, the 70 yr old mansonite, is a geeetar man! What like you know some Pat Booone? Frankie Avalon. Maybe some smoking Osmonds numbers. Yeahwhat a pedazo de mierda
The really important issue here is, why are such infractions the subject of armed raids, criminal penalties etc. Eric Schie at Classical Values wrote in depth about the criminalization of wood possession a few years back, and he has also addressed the Gibson raid.
The raids were done by bureaucratic fiat, not as legal actions. Gibson has no recourse other than to sue the Feds to get its confiscated wood back - it's guilty until it proves itself innocent.Curiously, the second raid occurred on the day Gibson was to appear in the court trying its lawsuit, to give evidence of its innocence. It appears that the Feds are moving to suspend that trial too.So where's Gibson's due process of law? Under Obama bureaucracy, it seems to be eclipsed. So many administrators, so many arbitrary unappealable actions by a government of men, or women, or in-betweens. This hasn't been the norm since the Roosevelt administration introduced it during the 1930s.About time for citizens to remind the government who's the boss here.
I thought that Lawrence v. Texas had ruled government wood inspections unconstitutional.
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