April 9, 2011

"Don’t run away from the issue, Planned Parenthood. Own it!"

Says Glenn Reynolds, modeling his "I had an abortion" T-shirt. Would that work? I think the pro-choice side is well-advised to take care of the feelings of those who believe abortion is murder. What is accomplished, on this issue, by forcing people to confront something they find so horrible and are never going to accept?

Here's the ad he's talking about.  One thing that seems odd to me is that if you emphasize the importance of government funding for "women's health" more generally — with talk about cancer screenings and STDs — then how do you explain the gender bias? Why should we be all fired up about women's health and not men's health? Is there a special role of government in taking care of women? Why? The sex discrimination is only legitimate if it's based on the real physical difference: the capacity of women to grow new human beings inside their bodies.

Ironically, if you support abortion rights, it is probably because you think a woman's body is her own sovereign domain, and government should stay out of it. But government wants in. Society wants in. One way or another.

194 comments:

Gabriel Hanna said...

Once in a while a leftist will say to me that they think anything between consenting adults should be legal. I usually ask them if that includes wages and benefits; but they always think that letting employees and employers negotiate without government interference is just too perverted.

rdkraus said...

AA

Ironically, if you support abortion rights, it is probably because you think a woman's body is her own sovereign domain, and government should stay out of it. But government wants in. Society wants in.

No, this is pure BS, except for libertarian women who are pro choice, and they are a tiny %.

Women want to be free to kill fetuses in their own bodies. I think they have that right. But it has nothing to do with most women thinking people own their own bodies; that's the libertarian view, not the liberal view.

Liberals hold this view (keep away from our bodies) only on the abortion issue. You can test this by asking them if they feel the same about women being free to use heroin and coke on their own bodies, or being free to use their own bodies for prostitution, or being free to eat whatever they want without gov't intrusion, or being free to have silicone breast implants, or being free to take prescription drugs without a prescription, or a hundred other issues.

No, women want to be free to kill fetuses. That's it.

traditionalguy said...

The Daddy State needs your reproductive power UNDER THEIR CONTROL. Making more and more people is a capitalist free market concept based upon faith in the future. Making less people is the no risk way. Don't you people know how much slaves cost to feed and clothe? Running slaves is a higher cost than running High Speed Trains. Only Judeo-Christian wealth creators like a Donald Trump can imagine new people to be a blessing.

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

From Insta: OPEN SECRET: Planned Parenthood turns tax dollars into donations to Democrats. “It has everything to do with the Democrats’ political health. They would be voting to cut off their own campaign cash, pried from the hands of taxpayers.”

campy said...

Why should we be all fired up about women's health and not men's health? Is there a special role of government in taking care of women? Why?

Because males are disposable. Only a tiny minority believes otherwise.

madAsHell said...

Women represent a constituency susceptible to hand outs.

Have you ever seen a man digging through coupons in the grocery check-out line??.....

OK, OK, maybe.....but was he wearing shorts?

Lincolntf said...

I don't believe for a second that the majority of Libs give a crap about "Women's Health" in the context of abortion. What they care about is establishing that the individual is subject to the whim of the collective, so to speak. Their contempt for the individual reaches it's fullest fruition when they can use the "collective's" money to eliminate a human who they believe will somehow detract from the "community" (or in the case of PP, when their race makes them somehow undesirable).

galdosiana said...

Ironically, if you support abortion rights, it is probably because you think a woman's body is her own sovereign domain, and government should stay out of it.

I have actually been told this exact same phrase numerous times by an extremely pro-"choice" colleague. Also, that abortion is like tooth extraction and shouldn't be considered anything major.

AllenS said...

Show me a woman who is pro abortion, and I'll show you a woman who is against capital punishment.

WV: dipshos

kent said...

Show me a woman who is pro abortion, and I'll show you a woman who is against capital punishment.

Even more baldly hypocritical: pro-abortion women who are militantly PETA-esque in safeguarding the continued life and well being of each and every non-human creature, all the way down to snail darters and eyebrow mites.

Browndog said...

I have always thought of liberalism as a Dr. Seuss "Pushme-Pullyou".

It strikes out in all directions, based on the emotional flavor of the month.

It's epic hypocrisy on every issue is inevitable.

The never-ending death spiral of "fixing" the obvious consequences of their previous policy that fixed the previous policy, that fixed the previous policy....

Ignorance is Bliss said...

But government wants in. Society wants in.

Men want in. But only a couple of minutes ( & inches ) at a time.

Marti said...

What I always find frustrating, as a conservative, is that the GOP wants to de-fund a program that I personally think, has a long term benefit. Allowing teens and women access to affordable family planning reduces unwanted pregnancy, and hence, a likely reduction in future entitlement costs. Teen pregnancy, single mothers and their children will always have a severe financial handicap. And poverty remains the top link to poor school performance. It becomes a cycle. I say embrace the fact that Planned Parenthood can have a role in breaking this cycle.

LL said...

"Keep the government out of my uterus, except when I want federal funds to ....."

jayniejaynie said...

Interesting post, Ann, and great comments. rdkraus and allens, very fine illustration of the myopia, indeed, psychotic split within the liberal head. And the whole "women's health" gender bias was the theme of the message I left at on Senator Reid's Washington office phone yesterday - that the government should therefore also be funding men's health care clinics. (Ha, the secret word I have to type to post my comment is "maniest" I thought at first it said "manliest"! Well I like that!)

And, by the way, I thought there was no federal funding for abortion? I thought that the democrats promised .....

John said...

Ann said:

"Ironically, if you support abortion rights, it is probably because you think a woman's body is her own sovereign domain, and government should stay out of it."


What about my, male, body?

If you are going to support abortion rights because of a woman's sovereignty over her body, don't you have to accept man's sovereignty over his?

In all respects? That is, if I wish to do crack, heroin, PCP etc do I not have bodily sovereignty to do so?

Why does this sovereignty argument seem to only be for some things for some types of people?

Note that I am for bodily sovereignty.


John Henry

Lincolntf said...

Marti, that's just the pro-eugenics argument. Sterilization would accomplish the same thing, but far more effectively. Shall we begin budgeting billions to sterilize "undesirables"?

John said...

In the morning to you, Traditional Guy

Yes, I have no agenda

John Henry

David said...

Listen, sperm donor, no one gives a damn about your male body.

Plus, what is more aesthetically pleasing, prostate health or breast health? Just consider the difference between a prostate exam and a breast exam. Do we want men self-examining their prostates? Eeeeeeeuw.

Gabriel Hanna said...

In California a teenage girl cannot use a tanning bed or get a tattoo without her parents' permission, but she can have a taxpayer-funded abortion without them even being notified.

No, the Left does not want to keep its laws off women's bodies.

Marti said...

@lincolnntf, it's not pro-eugenic, it's reality that Planned Parenthood can offer women birth control options that will prevent pregnancies which can dramatically change their lives. I am in no way suggesting that certain classes of people should not be born. I am suggesting that having options for women, especially for those that may not have healthcare or those that can't go to their parents, can help those women avoid some situations that are not in their best interests at the current time. Until all men take a vow of celibacy to not have sex until they are married, Planned Parenthood has an important role.

Browndog said...

Marti said...

"What I always find frustrating, as a conservative, is that the GOP wants to de-fund a program that I personally think, has a long term benefit. Allowing teens and women access to affordable family planning reduces unwanted pregnancy,"

Conservatives, by and large, do not play word games.

We're talking about abortion.

And you know it-

And "family planning" is something a husband and wife does together in private.

Play all the word games you want amongst yourselves--

But, if you think you libs are going to co-opt the meaning of "conservative" guess again-

Renee said...

Gabriel, Or any body piercings.

Who goes to a PP for a mammogram? Or a routine pap smear?

Pediatricians with an adolescent specialty, can do pap smears and prescribe Birth Control Pills and Plan B for teenage girls. Condoms are at every pharmacy and free in our colleges. So how limited is access to women's health?

Every woman knows, when the pregnancy is to be kept you look up a obstetrician. When a pregnancy is rejected by the father and by family, well it's off to PP.

ricpic said...

Do we want men self-examining their prostates?

That would be quite a stretch.

vet66 said...

I wonder how many women, young and old, suffer scars, emotional and physical, from the D & C procedure rendering them sterile? Planned Parenthood is a ghoulish operation that preys on women when they are most vulnerable. Worse, it is a lucrative business that lies about the fetus as a group of cells despite what the sonogram shows.

How much of the money provided for Planned Parenthood is laundered back to the democratic party for reelection purposes? Arguably, this is a conspiracy against women to encourage them to be promiscuous then generating a business to deal with the results. I'm disappointed in the number of women who fall for the "Keep your hands off my body" rhetoric. Welcome to the so-called "nanny state' that makes a business of enslaving women as single parents depending on the government.

The government's hands are all over women's bodies and these dependents utter nary a peep.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

This post was another one of Althouse's badly aborted attempts at thinking.

The sex discrimination is only legitimate if it's based on the real physical difference: the capacity of women to grow new human beings inside their bodies.

Listen goofball: It also has to do with possessing organs and tissues given to cancer known as "breasts" and a "cervix" which proper screening can prevent - the latter of which used to be a leading cause of cancer deaths in the U.S. before said regular screening.

At this point your complaint is apparently with the maker whom you pretend to believe in when politically convenient. He made you this way, (H)e made your body and organs that way. (H)e apparently made them as prone as (H)e did to the sorts of cancer deaths that only strong efforts in the realm of public health, facilitated by government, have drastically decreased.

Take your complaints to (H)im for making you this way and to (H)im for making the other citizens in your country (your obvious betters) smart enough to figure out a way to decrease the deaths that they have been implicated in.

Sheesh.

Lincolntf said...

Somewhat related, I was shocked (probably shouldn't have been) when I first moved to NC a few years ago and the issue of sterilization was in the news. Up until the 70's, I subsequently learned, the State was still sterilizing "idiots". The State just recently decided on compensation for whatever victims are still alive, but I'm not sure if they've been paid yet.

Renee said...

"Until all men take a vow of celibacy to not have sex until they are married, Planned Parenthood has an important role."

Huh? It's about satisfying the wants of men?


If a man loves a woman, he will accept the product of that love. Which is the child. A human being. That's what sex is really about about on the evolutionary biological scheme of things. Unfortunately things are skewed, and we need more flexibility in education and work for parents young and old. We should have a system that 'punishes' young parenthood.

If your old enough to have sex, well probably you are old enough to be a parent.I think it's abnormal that adults no longer have a the maturity to marry at 20.

dreams said...

I know of a woman who has had seven abortions, she told me herself. She also informed me that she doesn't believe in the death penalty because she doesn't believe anyone has the right to take someone else's life. A good rule of thumb - if someone is pro-abortion he or she will invariably be against the death penalty.

Jay said...


Ironically, if you support abortion rights, it is probably because you think a woman's body is her own sovereign domain, and government should stay out of it.


Nobody really believes this, it is just a silly talking point.

AprilApple said...

If girls had to pay for their own abortions, maybe there would be less of them.
Also, we already provide lower income brackets with financial aid for healthcare.
Clearly it is not fair to force individuals (tax payers) who are against abortion to pay for abortion. Turns out the abortion industry pays heavily into lobbying and re-election efforts for democrats. Once again, the tax payers are fleeced for it, and they should be pissed.

Obama's bubble-headed blind faith hollywood starlet doesn't mention abortion because it's an inconvenient truth.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

3% of PP's funds go for abortion.

35% to STD treatment and testing, another 35% to contraception, 16% to cancer screening and prevention and 10% to other women's health services.

It is simply impossible for the right wing to make a point without lying.

Marti said...

@browndog, I am a conservative and i strongly believe in a nuclear family. I do agree that the argument is about abortion and that is different from birth control. And i do agree that Planned Parenthood should probably raise at least part of their own funds, like say NPR (not to equate the two, other than through a fiscal argument). But i think it's wrong to ignore the fact that Planned Parenthood plays an important role for women, outside of abortion. As stated previously, until every man is abstaining or using condoms, i will support PP.

Jay said...

Allowing teens and women access to affordable family planning reduces unwanted pregnancy, and hence, a likely reduction in future entitlement costs.

Really?

Who is going to pay for all these boomers' social security benefits?

The illegal immigrants?

mm said...

Up until the 70's, I subsequently learned, the State was still sterilizing "idiots".

Why did they stop?

Would that include people who obtain a degree in ethnic or gender studies or just those who go into six-figure debt to do so?

kent said...

Do we want men self-examining their prostates?

Somewhere, at this precise moment: Titus is grinning a wide, goofy grin.

Big Mike said...

Interestingly enough, Glenn Reynolds then links to a Mary Katherine Ham post that compares the way right-leaning residents of the blogosphere engage moderate bloggers with the way left-leaning residents of the blogosphere engage moderate bloggers, using this blog as one example.

Mary Katherine's post, titled The Left Blogs Close the Door on the Big Tent is very thoughtful, and certainly worth a read.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Well, good thing we've got Renee here to stand up for the wealthy and privileged and disgusted by oral sex and other other non-intercourse-based alternatives contingent!

Jay said...


It is simply impossible for the right wing to make a point without lying.


Actually, it is simply impossible for you to demonstrate coherence.

Phil 3:14 said...

only” three percent or so of PP’s overall funding goes to abortions.

The "NPR" defense. Don't the folks who say this (and who are essentially saying "you can't hurt us") realize they're essentially daring the pro-life Republicans.

And where are the pro-life Dems?

DADvocate said...

Gender bias runs rampant in liberal philosophy. The Violence Against Women Act (men make up @ 75% of murder victims), equal employment laws, health related programs, etc, etc.

Go through the senators' home pages and see how many, liberal and conservative, have a "Men's Issues" link and a "Women's Issues" link. When I checked during the last presidential election the Men's issues was 0% and the Women's nearly 100% if not.

On his campaign John Edwards had links for African Americans, Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, Latinos, LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender), Women, Young America, Older Americans, People with Disabilities. But nothing regarding men.

In America, men are the serfs expected to do the work to support everyone else.

f you support abortion rights, it is probably because you think a woman's body is her own sovereign domain,

Unless, she wants to be a stripper or prostitute or housewife.

paul a'barge said...

then how do you explain the gender bias?

Men suck.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

"Coherence", to people like Jay, means the regular stride of a goose-step and the orderly formation of the people marching along to it.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

And where are the pro-life Dems?

Taking care of the post-birth fetuses that you absentee citizens have neglected.

kent said...

Mary Katherine's post, titled The Left Blogs Close the Door on the Big Tent is very thoughtful, and certainly worth a read.

Excellent article! Thanks, Mike!

Browndog said...

@Marti

I do not question your beliefs.

However, I do question the facts you use to cite why you have them.

Blacks believe that the only way to social and economic prosperity is through the democrat party and their liberal policies.

But, the facts are written all over the crumbling walls of democrat run inner cities.

Phil 3:14 said...

Marti;
What I always find frustrating, as a conservative, is that the GOP wants to de-fund a program that I personally think, has a long term benefit.

I don't think you understand conservatism. It's not about good intentions. The best natural conservative allies for the pro-choice crowd are libertarians. But they're not going to support the federal support, direct or otherwise.

Big Mike said...

Hey, Ritmo! Your numbers for the Planned Parenthood budget add up to 99%. According to this analysis the one per cent you didn't mention includes $1 M that they spent in support of Democrats in the 2010 election cycle, not to mention the $700K they spend on lobbying, i.e., treating influential lawmakers (mostly Democrats, one suspects) to free dinners at expensive restaurants.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that if you're going to take taxpayer money you should be absolutely precluded from lobbying, much less supporting candidates of either party in elections.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Eureka! I think I've found Big Mike's Amazon.com reviewer profile!

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Actually, the 1% said "other services" but I left that out as an insignificance to anyone other than the orderly Aspies who wander among us.

garage mahal said...

How tragically stupid this country looks to the rest of the world when a government shutdown was narrowly averted over.....subsidized pap smears and cancer screenings. Just when you thought this country couldn't possibly get any more fucking stupid than it already is.

Lincolntf said...

Yeah, garage, it's all about pap smears. Ignore the trillions and trillions of dollars of debt. Not to mention the wholesale slaughter of African-American infants that is the true raison d'etre of PP.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that if you're going to take taxpayer money you should be absolutely precluded from lobbying, much less supporting candidates of either party in elections.

Since I suspect that arbitrary order is a higher priority than actual reason to the human calculators who walk among us, I'll bite: Exactly what is your perfect "reasoning" for this proposition of yours, (that sounds more like a flawed assumption/premise)?

Also, I'm sure you'd apply that standard to all the subsidy-receiving agriculture lobbies. Just to be neat and orderly about it. Right?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

"(T)rillions and trillions of debt" and lincolnWTF goes on about an income of a few million dollars, or less than one-one thousandth of even one trillion. But you heard the man, it's all a "budgeting thing".

Seems like the right wing is comprised of human calculators and greedy prostitutes, but no one capable of making a rational set of priorities. You'd think that with all that calculating and greed, at least one of them would figure out how to plan out a decent argument to throw in front of the American people.

Piercello said...

Moral questions aside, am I right in thinking that the legal argument is about determining the point at which a fetus should be considered a human being, and therefore subject to all the relevant legal protections?

And if that were the case (since legislating morality pretty much never works), how about a compromise definition tied to the advancing state of medical technology?

For example, what if abortion became illegal at the developmental point where the medically assisted chances of survival at birth reach a certain percentage?

Arguing about the preferred percentage and how it is calculated would make great political theater...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Oh geez, Piercello! Are you actually proposing that the "single cell = a human being" argument thrown at us by the right wing is flawed? Like that'll ever work! Some guy in Rome told us that there's an actual PERSON inside that cell and this has now become an airtight, watertight, hermetically sealed, proposition that CAN NEVER BE CHALLENGED, EVER! Doing so would be worse than questioning the "intelligent design" theory that lectures us about a powerful finger making all the genetic mutations happen in our lineage (and in our cancer cells, but that's a different story, I guess).

DADvocate said...

BTW - because something is a constitutional right doesn't mean the government should subsidize it or has any obligation to subsidize it although this seems to be the liberals message.

If this is what they believe, I have a list of guns they can buy me.

PaulV said...

If abortion is only 3% of PP's business why don't they leave it to the abortion factories and stick to their real business? Than they can bribe both Rs and Ds.

WV: gingonsg Natural drug aboriginals use to promote fertility

Bill said...

Men and women have sex. Sometimes that sex results in the creation of a new human life. All of the abortions in the world haven't changed that. What the age of abortion rights has done is to convince people that it is their inalienable right to have guilt-free, risk-free sex wherever, whenever, however, and with whomever they wish.

Hagar said...

The professor's right to have an abortion if she wants one, is one issue; making me pay for it quite another.

Another example of liberal Democrat "mission creep."

And in the end, I think that, as with so many other issues, it comes down, to egos, and which tribe has the longest and stiffest and can pee the farthest.

DADvocate said...

Just when you thought this country couldn't possibly get any more fucking stupid than it already is.

With people like you, FLS and Alpha I don't think there's a limit on the stupidity.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

It seems to me that Paul the IVth is arguing that abortion should be a privilege of the rich. Kind of like caviar and executive jets. Money, wealth, abortions.

Whaddaya say, Fellow Conservatives?

If nothing else, that would be a good way to make it clandestine, if not scarce. Everyone knows how reticent wealthy and powerful people like Republican Congressman Bob Barr are to talk about the abortions they've paid their mistresses to have.

edutcher said...

Ann's line, "Is there a special role of government in taking care of women? Why?", really hits at the heart of feminism, which is to make women chattel to the government, i.e., the Demo welfare state.

The whole "Do your own thing, let it all hang out" culture of the 60s has produced an unending stream of unwed mothers who are dependent on government services. This is the way it was intended. Planned Parenthood, Himmler's US satrap, merely is a shill in the process and a bag man.

It's also interesting to note how the Libertarians always push the idea Conservatives lose with social conservatism, but never say anything about the fact the Lefties push radical social constructs all the time and seem to win. Problem is, people seem to be realizing abortion is a lousy thing for society to endorse and it's become less appetizing with the aging of the Lefty Boomers.

PS Trickling Down His Leg, in his inane sophistry, forgets that men as well as women, have unique organs (prostate, testicles) prone to cancer, too.

garage mahal said...

The professor's right to have an abortion if she wants one, is one issue; making me pay for it quite another.

Federal law prohibits this. Since 1976 actually. Did you not know this, or as C4 alluded to - you can't argue a point without lying about it?

Tully said...

My local PP offers men's health services as well, namely STD and cancer screenings, vasectomy referrals, and HepB vaccinations.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Men not only have organs that are prone to cancer but historically better access to sources of income with which to screen for and treat them. This was not the case when Planned Parenthood came about and if men's incidence of death from prostate cancer hadn't dropped as dramatically as women's incidence of death from cervical cancer, then I guess I guess I could see edutcher's point a little better.

But he did do a good (if sloppy) job trying to argue that having personal autonomy is a good reason not to care about someone. I mean, at least he didn't try to abort that one. He kept with it and pushed it into this world and now we must love it in all its messy sloppiness and despite all its handicaps and shortcomings.

Edutcher has now earned a place as the Sarah Palin in coming up with the Mother of All Bad Arguments.

MayBee said...

Great point, Althouse, and one I was thinking about yesterday as I kept hearing about "women's health" and "cancer screening".

Does Planned Parenthood do testicular cancer screenings? Is there a similar group that does that receives government funding? Do they have fundraisers and rallies?

I don't see why women's health is so very different from men's health.


(I have used PP. When I was a recent college grad, my employer kept me traveling so much it was very difficult to try to set up a a relationship with a regular doctor's practice. PP was easy to get into and suited my needs. They did my blood test for my marriage license, too)

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I propose that we come up with a prize known as "The Sarah Palin Award", to be given out to anyone who sticks with a bad, handicapped, perhaps even "retarded" or fatally flawed argument, persistently enough to birth it through to anticipated fruition. No matter how much life support or assistance a horrible argument requires, to be able to push on and on and lovingly bring that bad argument to birth (and freedom!) surely deserves a certain kind of recognition. And maybe a Hallmark card.

Chef Mojo said...

@Ritmo:

Also, I'm sure you'd apply that standard to all the subsidy-receiving agriculture lobbies. Just to be neat and orderly about it. Right?

Oh, hells yeah! I'm all for that.

Padre said...

I’d rather help Glenn Reynolds with other tee-shirt ideas: Pro-Choice Baby Shower – Live the Paradox. Your Social Security Payment was aborted in 1981. 53,000,000 - Safe and Rare. Planned Parenthood: Cavorting & Aborting since 1916. I am sure there are other ideas out there.

Tully said...

MayBee, as I noted my local PP does do testicular/prostate cancer screenings. They also do adoption referrals.

Fen said...

Federal law prohibits this. Since 1976 actually. Did you not know this, or as C4 alluded to - you can't argue a point without lying about it?

Its a shell game, Garage.

"Federal funding is given to Planned Parenthood, which can be spent on a variety of things including constructing/renting new buildings, building awareness in the community via advertising, and making things that Planned Parenthood charges for cheaper in general since many of their fixed costs are paid for. Planned Parenthood also performs abortions out of these same buildings, sold to the same people who are attracted to PP via the advertisements, and so on."

Our tax dollars given to PP free up donation money to be used for abortions.

William said...

I'm in favor of capital punishment, but I accept the liberal argument that it has in the past been improperly applied. I'm just as glad to live in a society where there is a bias against it. Why can't liberals accept the argument that liberal abortion laws also have their risks? Somehing like gendercide is going on in India and China. You have to have a very sunny disposition to think that no foetus in America has ever been aborted because of its sex. Could some feminist please explain to me why the abortion of millions of females is not a feminist concern?

Fen said...

If abortion is only 3% of PP's business

Its actually 12%, fwiw.

Chef Mojo said...

@Ritmo:

Defund PP. I have no problem with what they do, but I also don't feel the need to have the taxpayers fund them. Let the celebrities in the commercial and their friends in Hollywood fund it if it's so important to them. They can afford it.

Same with NPR/CPB. If people want it so bad, then they can fund it themselves. The government should have no role in providing entertainment to a select few.

I'm pro-choice but anti-abortion. Meaning I think abortion is the wrong choice to make, but women should be free to make the wrong choice. There are good choices and there are bad choices, and with those choices comes responsibility. I really don't think it's incumbent upon me to bankroll the solution to those bad choices.

Wendy Kloiber said...

So Ann: I am a self-insuring woman in my 40's. The main place where I experience "discrimination" is not in budget rhetoric but on the "open" market, where I have yet in four years of annual shopping to receive a single base offer that includes maternity care. I can purchase a rider if I choose, but it's an expensive option. Also: I have yet to see a plan (other than a $1600/month all-inclusive Cadillac) that covers contraception or contraceptive surgery. Riders are not an option here and the logic is economic: individuals who want contraception will self-fund it on top of their self-insurance.

From a policy (not a medical) standpoint: should abortions be cheaper and easier to get than tubal ligations? And do we want women of childbearing age "self-rationing" maternity care? For women in the self-insurance market we are way past death panels. Want a baby? Good luck. Want to not have a baby? Pay up.

Jay said...

garage mahal said...

How tragically stupid this country looks to the rest of the world when a government shutdown was narrowly averted over.....subsidized pap smears and cancer screenings.


How stupid you look by continuing to make baseless assertions.

You silly little beclowner, you.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

3% of PP's funds go for abortion.

35% to STD treatment and testing, another 35% to contraception, 16% to cancer screening and prevention and 10% to other women's health services.


Really? Tell us how they PREVENT cancer. I'm sure that many doctors around the world would be interested in hearing this.

So.... not that I doubt your figures or suspect that that you just pulled them out of your ass......if they are spending 98% of their income on these services, other agencies would be very interested in hearing how they can operate on a 2% margin. They must not be paying any of their staff anything.


This is how Planned Parenthood works: When I was in college (in the late 60's early 70's) I had no money no insurance, no doctor: I went to PP for birth control pills. Even then, when I was not pregnant I had to listen to someone tell me all about how they could help me get an abortion and how abortion was a good thing. They also wanted to encourage me to use a mirror to look at my the inside of own vagina (no thanks) and that if I spooned yogurt into that area it was beneficial for something or other (no thanks again!!)

"WTF?? I just wanted pills to prevent pregnancy!!!".

Jay said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I propose that we come up with a prize known as "The Sarah Palin Award", to be given out to anyone who sticks with a bad, handicapped, perhaps even "retarded" or fatally flawed argument,


You're projecting again, silly girl.

DADvocate said...

Our tax dollars given to PP free up donation money to be used for abortions.

Absolutely, it is a shell game, like you say.

I once worked in the day treatment program of a community mental health center. It was the only program in the center that made a profit from insurance, Medicaid, Medicare and private payments alone. Yet, every year we got grant money for the day treatment program. Money the day treatment program didn't need because we made a profit.

Thus, the shell game. The money the day treatment program made went to support the other programs and services and the grant money went to support the day treatment program. Virtually every non-profit receiving government money does this.

PETER V. BELLA said...

Planned Parenthood is a financial behemoth. They do not need government funding. They raise tens of millions of dollars on their own, very efficiently, with no trouble.

It is time to take a close look at all of these so called non-profits and cut off the government welfare.

They are not essential to the government, the health and welfare or the security of the nation.

If they cannot operate on their own, they should be allowed to fail.

They pay no taxes on the millions they rake in. That is enough of a break.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The main place where I experience "discrimination" is not in budget rhetoric but on the "open" market, where I have yet in four years of annual shopping to receive a single base offer that includes maternity care

Baloney. You aren't shopping around. There are plenty of insurance companies that offer maternity care in their insurance options.

Will it cost more than a policy without maternity care? Of course it will because if you use that coverage it will cost the insurance company more money.

You can buy a car without a stereo multi cd player or one with a stereo system. Just plan to pay more for the more delux car.

Free market.

PatCA said...

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

In this new age of alternative media--true independent media--those who toss around bromides like "women's health" to silence their opponents are having to explain what exactly they actually mean.

In PP's case, it comes inexorably down to abortion. Own it, dems. Tens of millions of abortions.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

The Republican philosophy (if such a thing exists) can be summed up as follows:

Abort all thought, and lovingly cradle and nurture any bad argument you can find in support of thoughtlessness!

Reason and purpose are stillbirths in the Republican conception of life.

MayBee said...

MayBee, as I noted my local PP does do testicular/prostate cancer screenings. They also do adoption referrals.

That's interesting. I wonder why they let themselves be so strongly associated with "Women's Health", then.
Or why Barbara Boxer asked yesterday, "What is the Republicans' problem with women?"

Phil 3:14 said...

My suggestion for the Republicans on the strategy going forward:

Listen Dems, assuming you're interested in actually reducing deficits, we'll work on the BIG TARGETS such as SS and Medicare (and yes Defense) if you agree to publically come along too.

Otherwise, we'll be very content to go after the small stuff (i.e. NPR, PP) that really energizes our base. You decide


(Remember, a million here, a million there, pretty soon we're talkin' real money!)

Chef Mojo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tully said...

I wonder why they let themselves be so strongly associated with "Women's Health", then.

Because women are still the vast majority of their clientele.

Chef Mojo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Phil 3:14 said...

Ritmo et al;
And where are the pro-life Dems?

Taking care of the post-birth fetuses that you absentee citizens have neglected.


See here re: The "Lazy Slander""

In the United States there are some 2,300 affiliates of the three largest pregnancy resource center umbrella groups, Heartbeat International, CareNet, and the National Institute of Family and Life Advocates (NIFLA). Over 1.9 million American women take advantage of these services each year. Many stay at one of the 350 residential facilities for women and children operated by pro-life groups. In New York City alone, there are twenty-two centers serving 12,000 women a year. These centers provide services including pre-natal care, STI testing, STI treatment, ultrasound, childbirth classes, labor coaching, midwife services, lactation consultation, nutrition consulting, social work, abstinence education, parenting classes, material assistance, and post-abortion counseling.

Chef Mojo said...

Third time's a charm?

@Ritmo:

Reason and purpose are stillbirths in the Republican conception of life.

Oh, jeez, Ritmo! The drama queen bullshit gets old.

Why argue policy with someone who has decided that your sole political purpose in life is the murder of women, children and old folks?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Really? Tell us how they PREVENT cancer. I'm sure that many doctors around the world would be interested in hearing this.

Cervical cancer is caused by a virus known as HPV, which cancer vaccines can prevent. I would believe that at some point, if not already, public health initiatives would encompass such vaccines.

Pap smears won't prevent cancer, but they can alert the clinician to earlier stages of it, including "pre-cancerous" growths. Whether or not this leads to less "cancer" per se or prevents it outright by facilitating removal is pointless (although you could argue this is the case), because it obviously greatly decreases DEATH from cancer - which is something to which I suppose you might be opposed if you were PRO-DEATH or something.

What other silly questions does the orderly person who lives inside a version of the movie "Tron" have for me today?

Tully said...

Thus, the shell game. The money the day treatment program made went to support the other programs and services and the grant money went to support the day treatment program. Virtually every non-profit receiving government money does this.

Yep. Regardless of which side of the political spectrum is its main supporter.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Why argue policy with someone who has decided that your sole political purpose in life is the murder of women, children and old folks?

Really? If you actually felt this way, then I'd LOVE to see all those smashing arguments you've come up with against the "PRO-LIFE" crowd!

Talk about a smugly self-serving title: Pro-life.

Are sperm and egg cells not alive? Are they dead? That's a weird thought but it inevitably follows from the warped illogic and rhetoric of those who talk endlessly of life (in the abstract, not in the singular) "beginning" at fertilization.

MayBee said...

Because women are still the vast majority of their clientele.

Yeah, I get that. But wouldn't they serve the public well by taking off the pink t-shirts and stop talking about being all about "women's health" so men will go there and get inexpensive cancer screenings?

Hagar said...

What Fen said.
And there are more shell games than Planned Parenthood going.

Plus, the necessity for shell games comes about because of such restrictions as the -76 law passed by the majority over the strenuous objections by liberal Democrats.

And there are such things as threatening hospitals operated by the Sisters of the Third Order of St. Francis with loss of accreditation if they refuse to perform abortions or provide other means of birth control.
A clear 1st Amendment violation.

It also strikes me that my right to control my wallet as part of my sovereign domain is even more self-evident. However, that right is overridden by society in the interest of the common good, such as the State's ability to build and maintain roads, attack Libya, etc. Now, it seems to me that if the liberal Democrats feel that making me pay taxes to subsidise organizations that promote and perform abortions, because of the "common welfare interest," then that also implies a contention that "a woman's womb" is also of interest to the State and subject to its authority under the "common welfare" rubric, nest ce pas?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Geez Chef. It was just a silly rhetorical device anyway. I happen to like it but I don't see why coming up with a witty quip on the "stillbirthing" of bad arguments got you that ruffled.

Tully said...

But wouldn't they serve the public well by taking off the pink t-shirts and stop talking about being all about "women's health" so men will go there and get inexpensive cancer screenings?

Experience tells me that trying to get men into clinic for screenings of their junk when no symptoms are present is difficult at best. One can argue about gender bias, I suppose, but when it comes to health care utilization, in general women are life-long utilizers and men are chronic avoiders until at least middle age.

AprilApple said...

According to the collective left, we women cannot find any health screenings or birth control unless we go to Planned Parenthood.

Phil 3:14 said...

(hopefully this isn't a duplicate. Blogger ate my first try)

Ritmo said:

And where are the pro-life Dems?

Taking care of the post-birth fetuses that you absentee citizens have neglected.


See here re: The Lazy Slander

In the United States there are some 2,300 affiliates of the three largest pregnancy resource center umbrella groups, Heartbeat International, CareNet, and the National Institute of Family and Life Advocates (NIFLA). Over 1.9 million American women take advantage of these services each year. Many stay at one of the 350 residential facilities for women and children operated by pro-life groups. In New York City alone, there are twenty-two centers serving 12,000 women a year. These centers provide services including pre-natal care, STI testing, STI treatment, ultrasound, childbirth classes, labor coaching, midwife services, lactation consultation, nutrition consulting, social work, abstinence education, parenting classes, material assistance, and post-abortion counseling.

AJ Lynch said...

Questions for PP defenders:

If the govt gives bailout money to the Wall Street banks which then pays big bonuses to employees, would you believe the bank if it said it did not use any of the bailout money for the bonuses?

If not, why would you believe PP when it says it does not use any govt money for abortions?

edutcher said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

The Republican philosophy (if such a thing exists) can be summed up as follows:

Abort all thought, and lovingly cradle and nurture any bad argument you can find in support of thoughtlessness!

Reason and purpose are stillbirths in the Republican conception of life.


Bell & Howell, you have a call on line 1.

WV "turelet" Where Trickling Down His Leg's arguments usually end up.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Well, A.J., one reason might be the fact that PP has actually HELPED other women by improving their lives and their health, and without the self-serving self-interested benefit of enriching its executives with the kind of obscene bonuses seen on Wall Street in the middle of a recession that they were in large meassure responsible for bringing about.

But then, understanding how conflicts of interest, selflessness and culpability work is anathema to the Republican mind nowadays, or so it would seem.

Anyway, I'm out to enjoy this fine day before you abortionists attempt another go at aborting my intention of doing so.

DADvocate said...

...so men will go there and get inexpensive cancer screenings?

Does PP offer any services to men besides handing out condoms? Vasectomies, maybe?

MayBee said...

One can argue about gender bias, I suppose, but when it comes to health care utilization, in general women are life-long utilizers and men are chronic avoiders until at least middle age.

But a caring government should care about young men's junk as much as young women's cervixes. If the government is going to give money to Planned Parenthood, they could insist PP become a more male-welcoming environment. No more talk of *women's* health and no more pink pink pink.

There is surely an HHS Office of Civil Rights that could investigate the male-hostile environment of a semi-public health facility.

Phil 3:14 said...

Just for a little perspective:

from the NCI

About 55 million Pap tests are performed each year in the United States.

from PP's Annual report

For the three million patients our doctors and nurses saw, we provided contraception (36 percent of our total services), testing and treatment for sexually transmitted infections (31 percent), cancer screening and prevention (17 percent), and abortion services (three percent). In all, we helped prevent roughly 621,000 unintended pregnancies.

If ALL of those cancer screens were pap smears, that's 510,000 paps

or
510,000/55,000,000 = 0.9% of all pap smears done annually

AprilApple said...

The nation is financially sinking -and all the left care about is making sure women can have a free, tax payer funded abortion.
Piss OFF.
I'm all for keeping abortion safe and legal – but not free. There should be cost involved.

Also, tax payers should not be on the hook for abortions, specifically. If the left want to crusade for abortion, fine; let them pay for it via left-wing charity. Come on Scarlett Johansoneson – start the "Uber-progs for Free Abortions Foundation". I'm sure Soros could fund it all by himself.
Tax payers don't want to pay for partial birth abortions either. In fact, a majority would like to see the practice illegal. Polls indicate full majorities from all political backgrounds understand that partial birth abortion is a disgusting non-essential way to savagely kill an unwanted baby.

If we cannot stop funding leftwing agendas that don't need funding, then how can we do anything about our out of control debt?
The fact that we fund NPR is a joke. And GE... and Auto Unions... and Goldman Sachs.. and on and on...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Thanks Phil!

So, just for perspective, how many cervical cancers are you interested in not catching until it's too late and the dear souls burden your emergency room with the need for urgent care (provided by those generous taxpayers) followed by hospice (probably also provided by taxpayers)?

He's only talking about a few thousand deaths of actual living, breathing people. Can't you guys live with that for the sake of a symbolic and miniscule shaving off the budget?

Tully said...

Does PP offer any services to men besides handing out condoms? Vasectomies, maybe?

Answered above. STD and cancer screenings, vasectomy referrals, and HepB vaccinations.

rhhardin said...

Settling an issue is a man's idea.

"Why don't we do something else now?" a woman's.

It's abstraction vs complexity.

Phil 3:14 said...

Some more math from the PP annual report

They received 363 million from the Government. That translates to $121 per visit.

Please also note: PP does accept private insurance and Medicaid. So I would assume that amount per visit THAT IS OTHERWISE NOT REIMBURSED is higher.

Finally from their annual report:

Health Center income = $405 million
Private donation income = $308 million
TOTAL = $713 million

Total medical services expenses = $684 million

So theoretically if PP ran solely on private donations and patient care revenue and only provided medical services including prevention services it would make nearly a $30 million profit annually

shoutingthomas said...

The Ulster County Democratic Women are holding an emergency meeting on Monday to fight back against the War on Women.

Talk about overheated rhetoric.

Did you know that the Republicans are waging a War on Women?

kent said...

The nation is financially sinking -and all the left care about is making sure women can have a free, tax payer funded abortion.

That's simply not true.

There's also cowboy poetry slams.

Jay said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Well, A.J., one reason might be the fact that PP has actually HELPED other women by improving their lives and their health, and without the self-serving self-interested benefit of enriching its executives with the kind of obscene bonuses seen on Wall Street in the middle of a recession


Um, dum-dum, TARP was funded by the party you vote for.

Further, I think you should go on pretending that the executives at PP don't get bonuses.

Really, I do.

Jay said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Thanks Phil!

So, just for perspective, how many cervical cancers are you interested in not catching until it's too late and the dear souls burden your emergency room with the need for urgent care (provided by those generous taxpayers)


Alternatively, we could stop paying for "urgent care" from borrowed federal funds.

Jay said...

He's only talking about a few thousand deaths of actual living, breathing people.

Ah yes, you and your silly ilk get to pretend these programs you support "save lives"

Lovely

Tully said...

But a caring government should care about young men's junk as much as young women's cervixes.

Feel free to forcibly dragging doctor-averse men into the clinic by their junk. I predict violent resistance among that patient population.

AprilApple said...

Kent - Dang - I forgot about tax payer funded government sanctioned unionized cowboy poetry.
It's very important we continue to sink over all of these essentials.

Big Mike said...

Well looks what happens when I go off and do some yardwork. Good 'Ol Ritmo beclowns himself further.

Back at 9:30 you claimed to find my amazon.com profile, but I think you picked the wrong "Mike" -- my browser history would show a lot of looking at mysteries set in Scandinavia -- Henning Mankell's Wallander series (BTW, I think PBS should be defunded for no better reason than Ken Branagh's inept portrayals of Kurt Wallander), Steig Larsson's trilogy, and, lately, Helen Tursten's Irene Huss series. Not to mention my insane pleasure at Janet Evanovich's crazy books.

But it turned out you were pointing to a book about Asperger's syndrome. Is Asperger's a bad thing? Well, Bill Gates supposedly suffers from it -- just imagine how well he'd have done if only his mind worked like an ordinary person's.

The Crack Emcee said...

If you want Planned Parenthood, or PBS, pay for it yourselves.

campy said...

when it comes to health care utilization, in general women are life-long utilizers and men are chronic avoiders

Funny, when women avoid things it's a sign we need to spend billions of $$$ to attract them. When men do it's always their own fault.

Fen said...

There needs to be a bill for a Doomsday Cut in spending. If your budget isn't balanced on time, EVERYTHING automatically gets cut by 50%. Even Congressional pay (and staff). If that doesn't bring it into line, rinse and repeat.

If something really needs that extra funding, too bad. If its that important, Congress should be able to pass a new bill to re-establish funding.

Only problem to counter would be the usual baseline shenanigans.

Carol_Herman said...

My Catholic friend was explaining to me how the Virgin Mary got pregnant. And, I said to her that if I received such a visit, I'd want an abortion.

Women are subject to their eggs talking. We go through relationships, not making any, until the man arrives and our eggs begin to whistle.

Back in the back alley days, the saddest part of those abortions were the married women with kids. Who had no access to birth control information at all! And, they died. Leaving their children ... like Cinderella got left in the original "fairy tale."

No one has a right to dictate to you that you've gotta keep it! No, you don't.

Italy, by the way, has the smallest sized Catholic families. (Where, once, Mussolini gave prizes to women who came close to getting pregnant every year ... until their eggs quit. And, he celebrated "size" like nobody's business.

As if you really want 17 kids!

But the republican party now owns this issue.

Trump, however, took away the "birther" tag ... and, pounced o something legitimate.How shopworn is this grab to disembowel Roe?

Fat chance. (Or, as you just could'a learned in the match between Kloppenburg and Presser ... with a million and a half people voting. You came out ahead 7,000 votes.)

Republicans need to wear Special Olympic helmets when they go out to do political battles. No wonder you've got the over-tanned guy, who folds "faster than a lawn chair."

Pandering to the cheap seats.

Rumsfeld tells a wonderful story, how he won his House of Representative's seat in 1964. And, when he got to Congress, the GOP only had 140 seats, total. And, some inept old timer refusing to move forward. That's when Rumsfeld found Gerald Ford, to "fight for the minority chair."

And, you wonder what's wrong? Yeah, Ford won it. Later, he'd make Chevy Chase's career.

Browndog said...

PETER VS. BELLA Wrote:

""They are not essential to the government, the health and welfare or the security of the nation."

That was the entire essence of the potential shutdown.

For the past 48 hours, the democrats argued that federal funding to Planned Parenthood was the most essential part of Government, and willing to sacrifice the entirety of Government to preserve it.

I don't mind liberals being wrong...I do mind when they are lying, deceitful scumbags.

Fen said...

Cervical cancer is caused by a virus known as HPV, which cancer vaccines can prevent.

So does abstinence. And of course, we've already sunk billions of our taxpayer dollars into public education, teaching children to roll condoms over bananas.

Federal funding of Planned Parenthood is redundant.

hombre said...

So theoretically if PP ran solely on private donations ... it would make nearly a $30 million profit annually.

Yes, but if federal funding is cut, PP's executives and administrators will not be able to funnel taxpayer dollars back into Democrat campaign coffers.

Carol_Herman said...

Back in the 1800's the Supreme Court already solved the problem of "all religious expression is allowed ... when it disallowed Mormon's from practicing polygamy.

No getting around it. Today the Mormon's are over-represented in our government, because they got kicked in the head, over polygamy. Which was put on par with "wife burning on the man's funeral pier."

Roe made abortions LEGAL. Just as a decade earlier, in spite of all the religious howls, men could by condoms. Pharmacists were no longer forced to keep them "under the counter." And, men would come in to "shop for something else," and then in a low voice ask for condoms, as if they were contraband.

Yes, the GOP is known for being "pro-life," no choice. All it costs are votes. But so what? You can always nominate Sarah Palin to the top of the ticket. (And, right there, you get Obama for 4 more years.)

Phil 3:14 said...

Fen;
So does abstinence. And of course, we've already sunk billions of our taxpayer dollars into public education, teaching children to roll condoms over bananas.

As a correlary:

In New York City some 41 percent of all viable pregnancies ended in abortion in 2009 despite the fact that the city distributed 40 million free condoms during the same year.

Almost Ali said...

Once upon a time... Joe Biden made John Boehner cry. He told the Speaker that Planned Parenthood was off the table. Period. Or else.

Nancy Pelosi comforted John, using Harry Reid's hanky. She held him in her arms, gently, lovingly, until Barack whispered, you're a good boy, John, and soon John was fine.

The End

Tully said...

Cervical cancer is caused by a virus known as HPV, which cancer vaccines can prevent.

**So does abstinence**.


Wrong. HPV is not just a "penetrative" STD, it is also transmissible through more casual contact, including maternal-fetal transmission.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Is Asperger's a bad thing? Well, Bill Gates supposedly suffers from it -- just imagine how well he'd have done if only his mind worked like an ordinary person's.

Lol. Yeah indeed! Just imagine how well Bill Gates (and everybody else) would have done if he'd actually given credit to the people he stole from, or better yet, came up with the ideas he stole on his own! What a wonderful thing THAT would have been!

Unfortunately, most "Aspies" are like the rest of the population: As uncreative as a TV test screen pattern.

MayBee said...

Feel free to forcibly dragging doctor-averse men into the clinic by their junk. I predict violent resistance among that patient population.

What? And women just love getting pap smears?
In fact they (we) do not, which is exactly why we have to have the sisterhood of Planned Parenthood and politicians talking about "women's health". And that will never attract men into their clinics.

If Planned Parenthood is about health regardless of gender, make them own *that*. Have Barbara Boxer make that speech.
Or let Boxer and the US Government admit that encouraging men is not as important as encouraging women to get cancer screenings.

MayBee said...

Or admit the passion for PP is really about abortion services.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I think this abstinence message really needs to get out there a bit more. I really do. I mean, if only everyone were more aware of all the joys and pleasures of abstinence, we would have a much more wonderful society. Clearly the practice is either getting a bad rap or suffering from underexposure.

Fen, do you think abstinence education will help stop you and your fellow soldiers from all the man-on-man rape that runs rampant in the U.S. armed forces?

Tully said...

Methinks MayBee doth protest too much o'er the poor adaptability of an equally poor strawman construction.

Excluding abortion, PP does provide some very useful public health services. I relaize that gets in the way of painting them as completely evil, but there it is. Reality is only neat and tidy through ideological lenses.

Chef Mojo said...

@Ritmo:

Lol. Yeah indeed! Just imagine how well Bill Gates (and everybody else) would have done if he'd actually given credit to the people he stole from, or better yet, came up with the ideas he stole on his own! What a wonderful thing THAT would have been!

Ritmo, you are just plain evil for trying to start a DOS v. MacOS fight on a thread involving federal funding of abortion through Planned Parenthood. Just evil.

RigelDog said...

Sometimes it's not a matter of either/or. How about, keep all PP services except abortion, if PP wants to continue to receive government subsidies?

RigelDog said...

How about PP just quits providing abortions, and keep all the other services?

MayBee said...

Methinks MayBee doth protest too much o'er the poor adaptability of an equally poor strawman construction.

Excluding abortion, PP does provide some very useful public health services. I relaize that gets in the way of painting them as completely evil, but there it is. Reality is only neat and tidy through ideological lenses.


What?
As I said, I've used Planned Parenthood's other services. I do not find them evil. Talk about a strawman and ideological lenses!

I'm talking about how important it is to some in government to have "women's health services" but not, apparently, "men's health services". Or, at the very least, to talk about "women's health services" without talking about "men's health services".

A fit was just thrown on Capitol Hill about defunding PP, and how the GOP has a problem with women.
My question is where is the outrage about lack of similar services for men? Or the admission that PP also takes care of men? The party of gender parity is trying to have it both ways, no?

Lgbpop said...

So tired of projection by the left of their evils onto others. Conservatives are responsible for the deaths of women? Poppycock. Making people pay for their own abortions isn't the same as saying no abortions allowed. Furthermore, if you can't afford the abortion - keep your pants on!

Liberals are responsible for the deaths of women. Planned Parenthood performed more than 332,000 abortions last year. If 50% of them were females, that means more than 166.000 females had their lives ended by Planned Parenthood. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Pelosi!

The Grand Inquisitor said...

Why, Althouse sounds like a civil libertarian.

Not that I know she's ever said she isn't one.

This was a nicely made point. I suppose it's logically similar to Althouse's observations on voter fraud's short term vs long term politics for both 'sides'.

Taking this farther than Althouse did: It seems that most people either prefer rights for unborn babies or prefer sex without consequences. The notion of 'stay out of my civil rights' is just a means to an end.

Tully said...

How about PP just quits providing abortions, and keep all the other services?

But that would be rational! And we all know partisan politics has absolutely nothing to do with being rational.

MayBee, you're trying to paint external agendas onto a single-organization issue. Straw-manning by inflationary conflation, at best. I don't even neccesarily disagree with your point, but it's somewhat external to the specific issue.

MayBee said...

I don't even neccesarily disagree with your point, but it's somewhat external to the specific issue.

Which specific issue?
Althouse brought up the gender bias aspect of it in her post.

Placeholder said...

Ironically, if you support abortion rights, it is probably because you think a woman's body is her own sovereign domain, and government should stay out of it.

It's a freedom issue. This is something the wingnuts can't understand, because the only freedom they care about is the freedom of money.

MayBee said...

How about PP just quits providing abortions, and keep all the other services?

But that would be rational! And we all know partisan politics has absolutely nothing to do with being rational.



It wouldn't be rational for PP to quit providing abortions unless they truly need the government funding and they don't care about abortion services.
For PP to stop providing abortions- which is an important (to them) part of their mission. Stopping that would be irrational.

What would be rational would be for partisan politicians- in this case, the Democrats- to admit they favor PP *because* of abortions, not because of some overhyped need to fund other "women's health" services.

MayBee said...

For PP to stop providing abortions- which is an important (to them) part of their mission. Stopping that would be irrational.

rewrite: For PP to stop providing abortions- which is an important (to them) part of their mission- would be irrational.

William said...

Dysmorphia is such a common complaint among women that it almost might be said to be an integral part of their character. The pain women inflict upon women for the sake of respectability and/or sex appeal surpasses anything that some poor ignorant Taliban could inflict. Tight corsets, girdles, silicone implants, foot binding, genital mutilation: these atrocities happen with the approval and encouragement of women. These crimes did not originate with men.... I fear that we shall get nowhere in this argument until women admit to their culpability in the mistreatment of women. The simple fact is that there are millions of less women in the world because of abortion. On the abortion issue, women are arguing for a position that ultimately undermines their own existence. This argument reminds one of when women argued for the superiority of midwives over male obstetricians. It is far better that a thousand women die of purperial fever than a single woman be subject to some man's sexist prejudices.

Ralph L said...

Want to not have a baby? Pay up.
Or keep your legs together and learn how to give a decent hand job. Or send him to a public restroom for expert service.

Chip Ahoy said...

Oh yeah, let's have this discussion all over again. After all that and still not a trace of anything that's new. Except maybe the idea that Pushme-Pullyou originated from Theodor Geisel.

Fen said...

Ritmo: Fen, blah blah blah

Ritmo baby, when I want to waste time with a Sophist, I'll see my fav table dancer.

You're just a bitter tired old troll that everyone scrolls past.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

It's a freedom issue. This is something the wingnuts can't understand, because the only freedom they care about is the freedom of money.

Lol. They support the freedom of dollar bills to trickle up from the government and everyone else to anyone "making" over $100 million annually. That's the natural order of the universe.

Or send him to a public restroom for expert service.

I'm not sure if Ralph either speaks from experience or if he's been spending too much time hanging out with Larry Craig and the other RepubliPerverts.

Phil 3:14 said...

Unfortunately, most "Aspies" are like the rest of the population: As uncreative as a TV test screen pattern.

If only there were an accurate prenatal screening test

Then we could abort them all.

Word for today:

Eugenics

(Just getting back to Planned Parenthood's roots.)

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Awww Fen... what's the matter? Civilian life got you down?

It's ok. I'm sure that any day now there'll be another war you can get in on for some behind-the-scenes Abu Ghraib action.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

You go on and keep aborting those brain cells, Phil. I won't criticize the reverse eugenics occurring inside your head, either. Deal?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

I think Fen is the only avatar-person who could think of putting "Sophist" and "table dancer" in the same sentence.

It's like a special feat of semantic acrobatics or something.

Fen said...

It's like a special feat of semantic acrobatics or something

And she's worth every dollar.

Fen said...

Yes Virginia, there really is a use for your Liberal Arts degree.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Lol.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

"Virginia"?

That's kind of a cheesy name for a stripper, no?

Jay said...

It's a freedom issue

Oh stop with your silly talking points.

You don't believe in freedom any more than you believe Jesus was crucified.

Phil 3:14 said...

I think this abstinence message really needs to get out there a bit more. I really do. I mean, if only everyone were more aware of all the joys and pleasures of abstinence, we would have a much more wonderful society. Clearly the practice is either getting a bad rap or suffering from underexposure.

That must explain the long term trend among teenagers!

Now if I use liberal logic imagine what that trend would be if we spent more federal dollars on abstinence education.

Phil 3:14 said...

You go on and keep aborting those brain cells, Phil. I won't criticize the reverse eugenics occurring inside your head, either. Deal?

I know I shouldn't even bother but Ritmo, what the hell do this even mean?

I assume your not suggesting that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was not a proponent of eugenics.

cubanbob said...

Marti said...
What I always find frustrating, as a conservative, is that the GOP wants to de-fund a program that I personally think, has a long term benefit. Allowing teens and women access to affordable family planning reduces unwanted pregnancy, and hence, a likely reduction in future entitlement costs. Teen pregnancy, single mothers and their children will always have a severe financial handicap. And poverty remains the top link to poor school performance. It becomes a cycle. I say embrace the fact that Planned Parenthood can have a role in breaking this cycle.

4/9/11 8:17 AM

You really want to cut entitlement costs by killing people?

cubanbob said...

Marti said...
@lincolnntf, it's not pro-eugenic, it's reality that Planned Parenthood can offer women birth control options that will prevent pregnancies which can dramatically change their lives. I am in no way suggesting that certain classes of people should not be born. I am suggesting that having options for women, especially for those that may not have healthcare or those that can't go to their parents, can help those women avoid some situations that are not in their best interests at the current time. Until all men take a vow of celibacy to not have sex until they are married, Planned Parenthood has an important role.

4/9/11 8:46 AM

Men don't get pregnant, woman do. Its the woman who should practice celibacy. Now as long as abortion is legal and woman are the sole decider of whether or not to carry to term, child support should be optional unless the man agrees to it in advance. If he doesn't agree then she can either abort or support the child on her own. As a taxpayer I don't see the reason or need for me to pay for someone else's child support.

Brent said...

Planned Parenthood had an evil founding by an evil, bigoted and hateful founder, and performs and promotes evil actions and values in this world today. Hitler value evil. Stalin value evil. Pol Pot value evil. Planned parenthood is of the same ilk.

Planned Parenthood can do a million nice things for a million sweet people and will still never be able to separate itself form it's evil beginnings. Never. Anyone associated with it should be ashamed of themselves and deserve the shame thrown their way.

cubanbob said...

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...
3% of PP's funds go for abortion.

35% to STD treatment and testing, another 35% to contraception, 16% to cancer screening and prevention and 10% to other women's health services.

It is simply impossible for the right wing to make a point without lying.

4/9/11 9:12 AM

3% (assuming your facts are correct) isn't 0%. Now as for lying to make a point.......

cubanbob said...

Placeholder said...
Ironically, if you support abortion rights, it is probably because you think a woman's body is her own sovereign domain, and government should stay out of it.

It's a freedom issue. This is something the wingnuts can't understand, because the only freedom they care about is the freedom of money.

4/9/11 1:17 PM

So your in favor of indentured servitude (as long as it does not apply to you). Liberals must think money falls from heaven. Maybe they ought super fund NASA and send a fleet of rockets in to outer space with ginormous funnels to scoop up all that cash.

As long as abortions are legal, who pays for them isn't my problem as long as I'm not compelled to pay for them through taxes or by paying otherwise higher taxes by giving tax credit, deductions or other breaks to the donors or providers.

Barbara said...

Wrong about the 3 percent of its funds, Mister Hygiene. You don't read carefully.

Of all the PP services, three percent are abortions (receiving an Rx for birth control pills counts as one service; receiving an abortion also counts as one. I assume many of its customers get two or more services at one time). Abortion, however, uses 15 percent of PP's annual budget. That's according to Media Matters, part of your team, not mine.

I won't call you a liar, though. Confused seems more accurate.

DADvocate said...

vasectomy referrals

vasectomy referrals?? They don't pay for vasectomies but want money to pay for abortions? If they pay for vasectomies, the demand for abortions should decrease. Although, looking at the PP website for SW Ohio, it looks like they charge or refer for both abortion and vasectomy.

Liberals have an obsession with equating abortion with women's health.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Barbara not only doesn't know how to cite, she apparently can't tell the difference between revenue stream and an operating budget.

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

Sorry cubanbob. I didn't think you'd be stupid enough to confuse a 3 with a 0. Next time I'll try to be more sensitive to how quickly you'd fall for a "fast one" like that. Pretty tricky, huh?

Roy in Nipomo said...

Why should we be all fired up about women's health and not men's health?

Because most people in our society (conscientiously or not) still buy into the "women and children first" ethic and there are some groups willing to take advantage of this.

jr565 said...

Carol Herman wrote:
As if you really want 17 kids!


If you don't want 17 kids, after about 5 or so have your man get his tubes tied. Then you could have all the sex you wanted with none of the drawbacks.

TMink said...

People who wear an "I Had An Abortion" tshirt should be treated with peace and dignity. They are expressing their views and this is still America. That sort of political expression is good for our country.

I only hope the other anti-abortion folks treat the pro-choice folks the way they would like to be treated themselves.

Trey

Cedarford said...

The old race, class, gender card to expand government favors and selective spending for favored groups.

Oppose women-only entitlements - you hate women.
Oppose a 4-acre Monument to MLK in DC and you are a racist. Oppose a 4-acre Monument for FDR in DC on grounds that it is too extravagent and removes too much scarce National Mall green and you are a visionary.
Oppose 3 billion a year from US taxpayers to Israel and you are an anti-Semite. But say no aid to Columbia and you are safeguarding taxpayers wallets.

Chase said...

"Defunding Planned Parenthood and defunding the CPB are pure spending issues, and the moves to stop printing money to favor hard left special interests like abortion providers and NPR producers underscore just how out-of-control the federal government has become. We don't have the money to give away to special interests simply because the left approves of their activities.

Honest reporting would note that the president and the Congressional Democrats are willing to injure the military in order to preserve abortion subsidies.
"




C4BH's own Bible, the New York Times, says:

"While Democrats have criticized the Republicans for attaching the social policy riders to the short-term spending bill, it is hardly an unprecedented practice. In 2009, the Democratic-controlled Congress passed the same sort of spending bill, known as a continuing resolution, which was signed into law by Mr. Obama with a host of amendments designed to set policy.

That bill eliminated the so-called D.C. Opportunity Scholarships program, a voucher program for public school students here. The program is beloved by Mr. Boehner, who sponsored a bill this year to revive it.

That bill also provided money to support repeal of Mexico City abortion policy that Republicans now seek to reinstate, created a mechanism for the government to provide federal health benefits for same-sex partners of federal employees and eased restrictions on American travel to Cuba.

“President Obama and Democratic leaders were for these types of policy restrictions before they were against them,” said Kevin Smith, a spokesman for Mr. Boehner. “Simply put, they have supported hundreds, if not thousands, of them during their time in Washington.
"


Democrats. Dishonesty and hypocrisy oozes like excrement out of every one of their hateful pores and orifices.

Synova said...

"Only Judeo-Christian wealth creators like a Donald Trump can imagine new people to be a blessing."

Heh.

Chase said...

Seriously, hasn’t everyone noticed that Democrats actually smell bad far more often than Republicans and Independents?

Wanna bet Democrats buy disproportional amounts of perfume and deodorant?

Think it's because of demonstrably the overall poorer hygiene habits of Democrats and leftists?

Do we now understand why Democrats NEED someone else to pay for their healthcare - because of their inability to understand how to take basic care of themselves?

Milwaukee said...

vet66 said...

I wonder how many women, young and old, suffer scars, emotional and physical, from the D & C procedure rendering them sterile? Planned Parenthood is a ghoulish operation that preys on women when they are most vulnerable. Worse, it is a lucrative business that lies about the fetus as a group of cells despite what the sonogram shows.


One of my former students had so many abortions when she was younger, i.e. before she was a Senior in high school, that when she did want to keep the baby she couldn't. Very tragic.

my word is gastry. is that like ghastly?

Conservatives 4 Better Dental Hygiene said...

What's your point, Chase?

It must really tire you out knowing that your buddies are pushing us into default for not getting their way on social policy goals that they lyingly pretend to have any impact on the larger financial picture.

The nation is on the brink of default, and the baggers are pushing for battles on miniscule riders related to women's health, the elderly, the poor. All the while fighting for much larger tax breaks. It's a fucking shame and don't you think the public has caught on.

Meanwhile, the Republican governor of Michigan pushes to give himself Putin-like powers to prevent municipalities in the state from having any local control whatsoever... Your guys are a fucking joke. A big, fat, greedy, authoritarian dictatorship of a joke.

Go suck on all those fucking paper money bills once we've acquiesced to the baggers and gone into default. They fucking love that shit. Once we do, you're really gonna love mob rule. You know which of these fuckers are going to be garroted first.

Milwaukee said...

Marti said:
As stated previously, until every man is abstaining or using condoms, i will support PP.

What, are all these fathers raping all these women? Seems to me that the mothers are willing partners.

Many of Planned Parenthood's problems with conservatives would go away if they were to give up abortion, but they won't. They entice poor minority women with birth control, knowing full well that abstinence and sterilization are the only fool proof birth controls. Women get pregnant, and Planned Parenthood makes money.

I heard of a minority woman in Louisiana fighting against a Planned Parenthood clinic in her local high school. Finally, she agreed on the condition that a similar clinic would go into a predominantly White high school. The proposal for the minority high school getting such a clinic died. Planned Parenthood is a product of Margaret Sangers "Negro Project". Hard to escape its roots.

mm said...

Back in the back alley days, the saddest part of those abortions were the married women with kids. Who had no access to birth control information at all! And, they died

Like the unborn kid had a chance. If it had survived, could it have claimed 'self defense'?

Milwaukee said...

Marti
What I always find frustrating, as a conservative, is that the GOP wants to de-fund a program that I personally think, has a long term benefit. Allowing teens and women access to affordable family planning reduces unwanted pregnancy, and hence, a likely reduction in future entitlement costs. Teen pregnancy, single mothers and their children will always have a severe financial handicap. And poverty remains the top link to poor school performance. It becomes a cycle. I say embrace the fact that Planned Parenthood can have a role in breaking this cycle.


So Marti, is there any evidence whatsoever that Planned Parenthood is helping break this cycle? Where? Have you noticed that Black women end disproportionately more pregnancies through abortion than White or Hispanic women? Don't you like Black babies? Planned Parenthood has been far more effective than the Klan ever was.

prairie wind said...

marti said, Planned Parenthood can offer women birth control options that will prevent pregnancies which can dramatically change their lives.

Ha! Show me a pregnancy that doesn't dramatically change a woman's life. Pregnancy happens. It means you will, if nothing interferes with the process, have a baby. People who have 17 children know that and accept it.

Carol said, As if you really want 17 kids! You sound like Obama right before he suggests that if you can't afford $4 gas, you should buy a new car.

Milwaukee said...

For what is worth, before 1930, all of the main line Protestant churches agreed with the Catholic Church on birth control, and how the marital act was for having children, and was to be in marriage. At the Lambeth Conference in 1930, the Anglicans decided that sex for recreation and sex for procreation could be considered two different things. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is very clear that they are not two different things.

Margaret Sanger and her Negro Project meant to decrease the number of minorities and other "undesirables" through eugenics. She was pals with some of Hitler's friends. Margaret knew that they would need to recruit Black pastors to convince the Blacks that this was for their own good.

Separating sex of recreation from procreation demeans us all. As the line from Chicago: "Stay away from jazz and liquor, and from men who play for fun." Women can now be a man's disposable play thing. And if she gets pregnant, well that becomes disposable as well. We are all demeaned.

So if a woman wants an abortion, the husband or boy friend can do nothing to stop her. If she wants to keep the baby, he has to pay. There are plenty of stories of women telling the man she is using birth control when she wasn't. Or of fishing a used condom out of the trash and impregnating herself. He can pay later.

I read somewhere that the divorce rate for Catholic couples using natural family planning was around 4%. Wowser.

Fen said...

As stated previously, until every man is abstaining or using condoms, i will support PP.

See what I mean? Millions of dollars spent on sex education, and people still imply that birth control is 100% effective.

Its not. If you engage in intercourse and use birth control, you are still taking a risk that you will create life. Own up to it.

Methadras said...

When a woman becomes pregnant, her body is no longer sovereign to herself any longer. That's a fact. She is has now joined harboring the life of another human being, her child and the child of the father, who by the way contributed part of himself for that privilege. The notion of 'abortion' rights is offensive.

Milwaukee said...

Instapundit just posted a link to "What You Need ... Is a Hybrid Van". http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/04/what-you-need-is-a-hybrid-van/

Forget condoms. Their suggestion for birth control? "In the meantime, families approaching the five-passenger Prius limit may want to consider purchasing the most effective birth control method known to man: a “World Of Warcraft” subscription."

By the way, is President Obama trying to make the guy feel bad for having a large family?

Synova said...

"So Marti, is there any evidence whatsoever that Planned Parenthood is helping break this cycle? Where?"

There isn't. Of course.

This is where I feel that the underpants gnomes are so very brilliant. You see that gnome-type thinking over and over in so many settings. Step two is always skipped over, somehow. And then no one cares or bothers to check if step three ever happens at all.


"Have you noticed that Black women end disproportionately more pregnancies through abortion than White or Hispanic women? Don't you like Black babies? Planned Parenthood has been far more effective than the Klan ever was."

Sanger was a disgusting person, certainly. But even by *her* definition of "profit", which would be the reduction of the non-desirable elements of the population, has she got what she wanted?

I see no evidence of it.

At least (and I say this entirely sarcastically) the reservation doctors who secretly sterilized native american teenagers who were at the clinic to get their tonsils removed managed to threaten the viability of the race itself. Does abortion reduce ultimate family sizes? I don't see that it does. It just kills untold numbers in the mean time.

My firm belief is that women would have the exact same number of children, at least on averages!, without abortion at all.

Attach a mandatory tubal to free and legal abortions and find out how many of those women don't actually want to have children or are willing to curtail their actual fertility. (And how many parents would be willing to bully their daughters if it meant no grandchildren ever.)

I'll bet *my* plan would "end the cycle" pretty darn quick as women who didn't want children *yet* or *now* aggressively pursued birth control. Yes, birth control fails sometimes, but very seldomly. And anyone who got an elective abortion would never get another.

Abortions would be "safe" and "rare". And ultimate family sizes would be no bigger. Not a bit.

Synova said...

I'm just wondering if I needed to say "in her estimation" undesirable elements of the population or not. Certainly it is not in my estimation.

Milwaukee said...

Some big name political guy recently made the comment that abortion had messed up Social Security. I think he meant that due to abortion we have fewer workers to contribute to Social Security. But just think, if family sizes had been larger, there would have been more children to care for their parents. Maybe then, more parents would need less in the way of Social Security because their children would be taking care of them. Well, that dog ain't gonna bark.

Skay said...

"Annual abortions performed at Planned Parenthood: 332,278
Source: Planned Parenthood 2009 services fact sheet

Average cost of abortion: $468
Source: Guttmacher Institute estimate
Total income from abortions: $155,506,104

Total health center income: $404,900,000
Source: Planned Parenthood 2009 annual report
This means that fully 38.4% of Planned Parenthood health center income comes directly from aborting unborn children"