February 20, 2011

Madison schools will close again on Monday — the 4th school day in a row — to accommodate teachers protesting at the Capitol.

"Nearly 3,000 Madison teachers, staff and family gathered at Monona Terrace... At one point, the [union] membership was so evenly divided on a vote to return to work Monday, they were asked to exit the meeting room and re-enter through two separate doors so an exact count could be taken. The vote was 741-731 to return Monday, but a later, more overwhelming vote to return Tuesday won the day."

151 comments:

MayBee said...

They took a vote?

I thought they were sick.

Calypso Facto said...

I guess there are now at least two ways they are not interested in the public's vote.

TosaGuy said...

Unfortunately, asshat teachers from my city are singling out the Walker children entrusted in their care.

Real professionals don't do that.

shoutingthomas said...

So, why are they getting paid.

They should have the right to strike.

They should not have the right to stroke and still get paid.

Cut off their pay.

MayBee said...

Really, TosaGuy?

bagoh20 said...

That sounds so democratic, but what about the ones who lost the vote? Will they protest the protest by going to class, and throwing a few Nazi or Hitler references at the winners.

William said...

Nobody tell them that it's President's Day and a holiday already. Let them think they're having a strike day.

TosaGuy said...

Link here to

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/260206/now-its-personal-robert-costa

The Crack Emcee said...

They're suicidal.

Oh well, as the saying goes, "it's your funeral."

Rialby said...

Fire every fucking one of them.

MayBee said...

That is scary and repulsive. Those two teachers should not be trusted with other people's children.

TosaGuy said...

Dear Working Parents of Madison,

FUCK YOU!

Signed,

Madison Teachers

Ash said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MayBee said...

The teachers using Walker's son should be publicly shamed.
I hate to say they should be fired, because I hate to see people lose their jobs. But they have lost their judgement. They are using a child as a political hostage.

Well, nobody can ever do that with the Obama kids, because they go to private schools.

JAL said...

This is disgusting.

former law student said...

The people
United
Will never be
Defeated.

ALH said...

Front page of every WI newspaper should be a story about a poor, working single mom in Madison who has had to miss work for 4 days due to the unprofessional behavior of the teachers.

TosaGuy said...

and people are uniting against thug union goons

Rose said...

Heh - here in CA schools have the week off for President's week. Was wondering if Wisconsin did too, so you answered my question.

MayBee said...

The People
United
Will push one child to the forefront

former law student said...

Walker is trying to screw out of their rights the teachers of his children. And these teachers should just sit back and take it?

Walker thinks teachers are just a bunch of damn pussies, only way I can see this.

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

Taxpayers of Wisconsin, a question. I don't know school financing in your state, and I've learned that assuming every state works like Michigan does in this regard is pretty naive.

In Michigan, our local school board has to schedule elections to impose or renew a millage, a local property tax designed to fund the local schools. Is your system similar?

If so, and if you recognize any of the teachers in these videos or photos who are out protesting when they should be in class, my suggestion is as follows:

1. Show up at your next local school board meeting.

2. Ask if these teachers called in sick.

3. Ask if they turned in medical notes.

4. Ask if those notes were signed by any of the back alley doctors recorded by Professor Althouse and others.

5. Ask what disciplinary measures have been imposed for teachers who were absent without proper excuses (NOT from the back alley doctors).

6. If at any point you get the answer "We can't discuss that," don't raise a stink about it. Just form a committee for two things: to run against the local school board, and to oppose any future millage votes until proper discipline has been meted out.

The local school board is often afraid of rocking the boat with the union. They'll be doubly afraid here with so many teachers involved. You need to make them equally afraid for their positions and their funding, or they'll just cross their fingers and hope for this to all blow over.

I forget which one of the back alley doctors it was, but one of them said he didn't care if he got in trouble. He said sometimes you have to sacrifice for a cause you believe in. I don't agree with his cause, but I respect his willingness to sacrifice for it. These teachers who think they're brave civil rights protestors want to be brave without having actual risks. It's time to prove them wrong in that regard. The local school boards need to fine every one of them for the lost time, at a minimum.

Kevin said...

They took a vote?

I thought teacher strikes were illegal in Wisconsin - that's why they took the "sick day" strategy.

Unfortunately, asshat teachers from my city are singling out the Walker children entrusted in their care.

Find out if the asshat teachers in question claimed to be sick last week...

Rose said...

No, former law student - he is trying to stave off people actually losing their jobs.

Most teachers I know would take a pay cut in order to prevent one of their fellow teachers from being fired, but they do not have that option.

Walker is doing the right thing.

California will not do it - and failure to accept smaller cuts when it could have made a difference will result in California taking the coward's way out - they are exploring ways for the state to get around the law preventing them from declaring bankruptcy - so that they can get out from under the Union contracts altogether.

MayBee said...

Walker is trying to screw out of their rights the teachers of his children. And these teachers should just sit back and take it?

Of course their "rights" aren't being screwed out of them.
But even so, the kid stays out of it. They are supposed to be professionals.
They shouldn't single out the governors son, the senators' sons, the sons of teachers who would vote against the union. They aren't supposed to single out children of illegal aliens, or the children of murderers. They are supposed to be professionals.
Bringing up a single child is pure thuggery.

JAL said...

There are only 1472 union techers on site to decide this?

I thought thousaaaaaaannnndddsss of teachers were objecting to this.

bagoh20 said...

"Walker thinks teachers are just a bunch of damn pussies, only way I can see this."

Well, clearly he is mistaken. They use children for political and monetary gain. They are certainly not pussies. Thugs, gangsters, lowlifes, child abusers, sure, but pussies? Never.

S said...

@MayBee, they took a vote on whether they're still sick.

In non-union companies, of course, some people can be sick while others aren't. But union shops display more solidarity.

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

And besides: isn't "local school board member" the first step on the road to a VP nomination?

wv: stall. Like the Badger 14. Or what the restrooms at the rotunda will smell like in the morning.

alan markus said...

Privatize public education with choice vouchers. Let the families decide who educates their children.

johnvert said...

Saturday I was standing next to a Walker supporter who was holding a sign, when I was approached by one of the protesters. The twisted protester stated that he was going to rape my children, rape me and then cut me. I offered to give him my address and told him I would put him on a lead diet if he ever comes on my property. If I did not experience this in person with witnesses I would have never believed it.

bagoh20 said...

It will be great when these teachers have a class teaching the youngsters about the evils of bullying.

Alex said...

Get a beer, grab some nachos and enjoy the spectacle.

Kevin said...

They shouldn't single out the governors son, the senators' sons, the sons of teachers who would vote against the union. They aren't supposed to single out children of illegal aliens, or the children of murderers. They are supposed to be professionals.
Bringing up a single child is pure thuggery.


I think the teacher's union's message is quite clear - oppose us, and you had better enroll your kids in private schools, because you don't want to see what happens if they stay in public school.

Alex said...

FLS - massive game of chicken. Who will swerve first? Hang on to your hats.

former law student said...

111.70(1)(nm)
(nm) "Strike" includes any strike or other concerted stoppage of work by municipal employees, and any concerted slowdown or other concerted interruption of operations or services by municipal employees, or any concerted refusal to work or perform their usual duties as municipal employees, for the purpose of enforcing demands upon a municipal employer. Such conduct by municipal employees which is not authorized or condoned by a labor organization constitutes a "strike" , but does not subject such labor organization to the penalties under this subchapter. This paragraph does not apply to collective bargaining units composed of municipal employees who are engaged in law enforcement or fire fighting functions.

This is not a strike, because the teachers are protesting the Governor and the state Legislature. Their absence from work is not for the purpose of enforcing demands upon a municipal employer, because they can get relief only from the Legislature and the Governor, not from any municipal employer.

former law student said...

Of course their "rights" aren't being screwed out of them.

The Governor has proposed emergency legislation which will strip them of most of their collective bargaining rights.

But even so, the kid stays out of it. They are supposed to be professionals.
They shouldn't single out the governors son, the senators' sons, the sons of teachers who would vote against the union. They aren't supposed to single out children of illegal aliens, or the children of murderers. They are supposed to be professionals.


Always be nice to the fellow in a position to spit into your food, is my motto. Not the governor's appparently.

MayBee said...

Always be nice to the fellow in a position to spit into your food, is my motto. Not the governor's appparently.

Always give people what they want, because they might harm you if you don't.

Great motto. Especially for governance.

alan markus said...

Mr. Shoemaker, from what I've observed in WI, the school board establishes a levy based on the budget they adopt. There are several hearings during the process, and ultimately there is an annual meeting where the levy is voted on by citizens who appear. However, it is an advisory vote - the Board can choose to vote differently.

If the budget exceeds levy limits set by the state, an Operating Referendum can be proposed to fund the difference. The Referendum must be approved by majority vote. There is also a process for Building Referendums if the district wants to borrow funds to finance construction projects. Lately, I think the rejection rate on those run close to 75%.

I predict that for the next 10-15 years (people around here have long memories), the rejection rate for Operating & Building referendums in WI will approach 100% (excluding Madison). That's one of the "payback" options available to the local taxpayer/voter that WEAC and state legislators will not be able to influence at all.

Kevin said...

Always be nice to the fellow in a position to spit into your food, is my motto. Not the governor's appparently.

Nice little school child you've got there. Hate to see anything bad happen to him...

vnjagvet said...

I don't know if there is any law in Wisconsin preventing teachers from striking, but I suspect all the collective bargaining agreements between the teachers union and the school boards have no strike clauses.

No strike contracts are enforceable against unions in federal courts under Section 301 of the National Labor Relations Act. Violations are subject to injunctive relief, damages or both.

Each of the school boards have weapons if they want to use them.

bagoh20 said...

"Always be nice to the fellow in a position to spit into your food, is my motto. Not the governor's appparently."

Well, you know what happens when the spitter gets caught. It negatively affects their income.

Anga2010 said...

Here in Lubbock, Texas. The ppl in the pub say "Nothing important happens in Wisconsin."
hmph.

Republican said...

I would like to thank the people of Wisconsin for underwriting the sick days for their teachers, the clean up of the messes left behind, and even the salt trucks not plowing or spreading salt!

Your willingness to take one for the other 49 states will not be forgotten.

Muwah!

MadisonMan said...

Unfortunately, asshat teachers from my city are singling out the Walker children entrusted in their care.

That's one interpretation to that story.

Scott, your son is in my class. I teach him, I protect him, I inspire him.

Singling out because she doesn't mention the other students?

AJ Lynch said...

If this law passes [and I think it would be a good thing],the union leaders will be the ones who are out of a job. But the pendulum always swing back and it will in 5 or 10 years or so.

AJ Lynch said...

"I inspire him?"

Come on Mad Man is that what the average teacher does? and then she brags about it on a poster during a protest? Don't make me laugh.

Goju said...

So......following FLS' logic, it is permissable for me to express my disapproval of teachers actions by throwing a brick thru a teacher's child's bedroom window.

Why does that seem somehow wrong?

MayBee said...

MadisonMan-

Why do you think she mentions the governor's son?
Do you really think she aims to tell governor Walker about how inspirational she is?

MadisonMan said...

Why does she mention the son?

So the Gov connects a face to the protest.

I'm not sure why you are seeing something dark in this. That is so not Wisconsin.

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

At least they're consistent. There was an election in November, and they lost,and they want to ignore it. Today they held a vote, and they lost, and they ignored it and voted again.

Votes only count if they result in the right result, ya know. Otherwise, just keep voting. Or shut down the government.

vnjagvet said...

FLS:

You had better read up on your labor law. Under Section 301 as interpreted by the federal courts, any concerted activity by employees having the effect of shutting down their employer's business is a strike. If the employees' union has a collective bargaining agreement with the employer with a no strike clause, the union is under the duty to use every available means to stop the breach.

Hint: Taking a vote does not fulfill that duty.

The objective of the concerted activity is immaterial.

MadisonMan said...

Re: The Madison teachers. I really don't know who is leading them, but they seem pretty blind, or cocooned, or something. Perhaps they've been stuck at the Capitol too long, where everyone reinforces what they think. That happens with politicians all the time too.

MayBee said...

So the Gov connects a face to the protest.

I'm not sure why you are seeing something dark in this. That is so not Wisconsin.


Do you think the governor doesn't know his son's teacher is a teacher, MadMan?

Nothing bad ever happens in Wisconsin!

But now I realize you are being tongue in cheek. So ha!

MadisonMan said...

vnjagvet: I saw something from the School Board that discusses whether this is a strike. Because the teachers are not asking the school board for anything, by state law it's not a strike.

Now, I think that's a silly law, that you can leave your job but not be on strike if you're not asking for a particular demand, and it seems they're only asking that the state not take away the right to bargain collectively, and since the state is not the School Board....

madAsHell said...

You can't teach anyone to be somebody else.

I always knew I was gonna be an engineer.

Teach kids how to read, and some math....the rest is up to them.

This idea that we can make kids smart.....smarter than what?????

Yes, I have two adult children. There are no surprises. They do exactly what I would have done

David said...

Let's take a vote on whether to pay them.

Let's not dock all their pay, just a few days here, and a few there, since we are not feeling well.

Republican said...

I'm stunned at how many teachers appear to be 20-23 yo.

Placeholder said...

Yes, but at least Ann Althouse will take a $10,000 pay cut. Yes, yes, there is justice in our world! Eat it, Annie, you parasite on the taxpayer! Ha ha! See ya at Wal Mart!

JorgXMcKie said...

Once again, the "Former Law Student" demonstrates that this is evidently the case because her/his reasoning powers were inadequate to make it in even a Third Tier Toilet.

Freeman Hunt said...

All this collective nonsense. That's why I could never be a public school teacher.

You have to vote on whether or not you're coming to school? Why can't one come and teach if he wants while another who thinks it's best to protest goes and does that? Why are they all forced to do the same thing?

It's just like their salaries. This amount for this many years plus these credentials.

There's no room to be an individual. What garbage.

David said...

By the way, on behalf of my father, his mother and father, and all of their ancestors, I protest the disrespect for people who did not graduate from college.

I lodge a similar protest on behalf of my mother, her mother and father and their ancestors as well.

Kevin said...

I protest the disrespect for people who did not graduate from college.

Like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates?

den parser said...

I wonder why even in rich country, there's still a protests that may happen in a particular day.

Escalante Bloggers

Freeman Hunt said...

What difference does it make whether anyone goes to college if this entitlement nonsense is what they're teaching the students?

Met a recent college graduate lately? Excepting the maths and sciences, can you tell any difference in knowledge between him and a non-grad?

The main difference I can detect is a greater likelihood on the part of the grad to turn off his skepticism and critical thinking when it comes to politics and line up immediately with whatever has been presented to him as the intelligent and hip thing to believe. Hubris. Hubris for the capability of man to plan all things, and hubris that he and the rest of the supposed betters know what's best for all the little men.

Now that isn't true for all recent college grads, of course. But take a random sample of intelligent young people and see if that isn't more true of the grads among them.

vnjagvet said...

MM:

I am not a Wisconsin lawyer, but I have no reason to doubt Wisconsin law is as you state it.

I believe it is more likely than not however that federal law applies equally to this situation. If it does, the teachers' activities are subject to a suit under Section 301 of the NLRA.

Doug Wright said...

Well, there's one solution possible to Wisconsin's employment problem, fire those striking teachers, they're lying about being "sick" and there'll be others who can be hired to replace them; a zero-sum game in this case.

Plus, this action involving the teachers will result in many lawsuits thus increasing employment for lawyers, not that that's a good thing.

Also,the WI state senate problem could be resolved by declaring that those missing senators had walked off the job, vacating their positions, Now that might allow the state senate leaders, those still on the job, to proceed and get some laws passed.

See how easy this might be if only there's a will and screw the teachers and those loafing around the capitol building.

Cheers.

Sofa King said...

Also,the WI state senate problem could be resolved by declaring that those missing senators had walked off the job, vacating their positions, Now that might allow the state senate leaders, those still on the job, to proceed and get some laws passed.

They could also charge them with a Class I felony and have them extradited. Wouldn't that be fun, even if they just dropped the charges later.

kimsch said...

Yesterday union supporters at the Capitol were screaming: "Walker's kids go to public school! Walker's kids go to public school!"

I don't know quite what to make of that.

Were they threatening? Were they trying to imply he was hypocritical because he wants to limit public union power, but his kids are taught by public union members?

North Dallas Thirty said...

Always be nice to the fellow in a position to spit into your food, is my motto. Not the governor's appparently.

So you are acknowledging that Wisconsin teachers will harm children unless their demands are met.

Gotcha. Now please publicize that. Tell parents that, unless they cough up and keep their mouths shut, teachers will deliberately harm their children.

And Barack Obama supports the teachers who would harm their children.

Fen said...

I don't know quite what to make of that.

Unions have a pattern and history of using violence or its threat to intimidate those who make waves.

So consider the source.

Fen said...

Its so ironic that they took a vote. How about abiding by the votes counted last November?

Rose said...

The TEACHERS are not selfish. But they are afraid, and there are people whipping them up into a state of fear.

Teachers are, by and large, very selfless people. They give of themselves, their time, their hearts and their souls. They feel betrayed when they think they are not being valued.

At one time they were very poorly paid. In most states this is no longer the case. Along the way, when bargaining for COLA wage increases, there were times when they took/were given benefit packages instead of salary increases.

At the time, HC insurance costs were minimal and it did not adversely affect state budgets - but was in fact a way to ease the effect on state budgets.

As time has come forward, those costs have increased to the point of breaking the states. Think about your own health insurance. A few short years ago, you'd be paying $150 a month for a family. Now it is in excess of $900.

In addition to that, they negotiated for/were given incredibly lucrative retirement packages (this actually applies more to prison guards and others more than teachers, but they are all mixed together in the public view of this whole thing).

It is during this whole process that schools no longer allocate much money for classroom supplies and field trips and any number of other things, because the money has all been taken up into wages.

Many teachers, in addition to those Union dues (which really gain them nothing), also pay for classroom supplies out of their own pockets. This is often in excess of that $1,000 a year that they pay in Union dues.

So, I think we have to recognize - these are all good people. they have been whipped into a state of fear by the Democrats and the Unions - similar to the way the Dems try to say republicans are going to take away Social Security (they're not).

If this entire thing was instituted to avoid firing 10,000 - 12,000 people - and it fails, and they lose their jobs, not just have to pay a bit into their own health care...

And ultimately, it is to avoid what is inevitable in California - the declaration of bankruptcy to get out from under Unions contracts entirely.

In reality, Walker split the baby - give him credit, FLS.

former law student said...

I'm stunned at how many teachers appear to be 20-23 yo.

How do you know they are teachers?

But many would-be teachers find they cannot feed, clothe, and house a family on a teacher's pay. They move on.

former law student said...

So you are acknowledging that Wisconsin teachers will harm children unless their demands are met.

I never wanted to find out for sure if pissed-off people would spit into my food.

former law student said...

How about abiding by the votes counted last November?

Fen likes to pretend that busting public unions was a referendum question on the ballot.

Alex said...

fls - the difference is I don't go to fast food restaurants where they might spit in my food. Kids don't have a choice, they are forced by LAW to attend public schools.

PatCA said...

"to exit the meeting room and re-enter through two separate doors so an exact count could be taken."

And so everyone who could see who was or was not a loyal union voter.

kimsch said...

And the average teacher's compensation in Milwaukee (cite is north of $100k.

wv: weardr

Leonidas said...

If the teachers think they are worth more, or any of the other union members, they should take their skills to the private sector for a reality check.

Alex said...

Scott Walker won his election 52-46. The GOP controls 57/99 seats in the state House and 19-14 in the Senate. Not exactly a mandate if you ask me.

Bob said...

Althouse has conveniently ignored the fact that the unions have been willing to make concessions. They've basically agreed to everything but stripping their collective bargaining rights. Honestly, I don't think it's too bad. Walker has refused to compromise or even attempt to open up a civil discourse on the issue.

The Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature have been treating the Democrats like garbage. They'll tell them a vote is at 5pm but hold it at 4:55 so Democrats miss the vote. They don't inform them of bills being introduced. Look, we know the GOP is in control, but the Democrats never did this during their stint as the majority. Sure, they'd outvote the GOP, but at least the GOP could have their say in the debate process.

Bob said...

And one other thing, before you all jump on me (since I know it's going to happen)--I don't support the teachers calling in "sick" to be at the protest. I think it's quite hypocritical to talk about caring/inspiring children, but then essentially force the schools to close so those same children can't get taught.

Revenant said...

Althouse has conveniently ignored the fact that the unions have been willing to make concessions. They've basically agreed to everything but stripping their collective bargaining rights.

Nobody is asking them to "agree" to anything.

This isn't a negotiation. We, the people, *tell* our public servants what they will be paid. Anyone who doesn't like it can quit and get a job that doesn't involve sucking at the tax dollar teat.

Sofa King said...

Look, we know the GOP is in control, but the Democrats never did this during their stint as the majority. Sure, they'd outvote the GOP, but at least the GOP could have their say in the debate process.

Oh, loosen the grip on your pearls. Both sides have been guilty of sometimes running roughshod over the minority procedurally. It is objectionable but it happens, and Democrats are no saints in this regard.

Off the top of my head, I recall a incident earlier this year when clearly audible objections were simply ignored before adjourning, and the voter ID bill which Democrats attempted to rush through with basically no debate.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704671904575193930226978178.html?mod=rss_Today's_Most_Popular

Revenant said...

Scott Walker won his election 52-46. The GOP controls 57/99 seats in the state House and 19-14 in the Senate. Not exactly a mandate if you ask me.

We didn't.

Sofa King said...

If the Senators are not back this week, I think we should consider extraditing them.

Nickie Goomba said...

I love that this farce is being played out on a national stage. Thanks, Ann.

Mason said...

"Always be nice to the fellow in a position to spit into your food, is my motto. Not the governor's appparently."

Apparently it's not the teachers' motto, I think you mean.

Let's piss off the leader of our state, who (with one phone call to a sympathetic administrator about what we've said about his kids) can put our jobs in jeopardy.

Yeah. That's SMART.

Mason said...

"Singling out because she doesn't mention the other students?"

Are you KIDDING me?!

Gustafson is quite clearly attempting to use the Governor's child as political leverage for her message. No. That does not work. Politician's kids are OFF LIMITS, period. I don't care whether we're talking about Jenna and Barbara Bush, or Malia and Sasha Obama, or anyone else.

They can't influence what their parents do. They may not agree with it. Hell, depending on their age, they may not even understand it. Using them as a weapon against their parents is therefore not an option for civilized people.

Largo said...

"""The Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature have been treating the Democrats like garbage. They'll tell them a vote is at 5pm but hold it at 4:55 so Democrats miss the vote."""

That sounds pretty shitty, Bob. Do you have a cite for it?

Alex said...

Here's a civil gem from HuffPo:

HUFFPOST SUPER USER
glddraco 2 hours ago (2:34 AM)
53 Fans
Paul Ryan needs to go sky diving without a parachute that way he'll save the country a lot of money.

Mason said...

"Scott Walker won his election 52-46. The GOP controls 57/99 seats in the state House and 19-14 in the Senate. Not exactly a mandate if you ask me."

And by analogy --

Barack Obama won his election 52-46.

The Democrats controlled 256/435 seats in the U.S. House, or roughly 58.8% of seats (compared to the GOP's 57.6% share in the Wisconsin Assembly.)

The Democrats controlled 59/100 seats in the U.S. Senate (59%, compared to the GOP's 57.6% share in the Wisconsin Senate.)

Therefore, the Democrats did not have a mandate for the last two years nationally. That's good to know, because everywhere I turned, I was assured that they did, and that Republicans (especially those in the Senate) were thwarting the will of the people. Which, if THAT viewpoint were extended, would mean that the massive gains made in both the Wisconsin Assembly and the Wisconsin Senate, combined with the election of Scott Walker, would mean that Republicans did have a mandate, and that it was Senate Democrats engaged in thwarting the will of the people.

Ah, sweet irony. :)

dick said...

They voted to return and the union didn't want that so they had them vote again and again until they got the result the union wanted. Sounds familiar to the way Pelosi got the HCR passed.

Alex said...

Mason - good number crunching. Thus, the utter hypocrisy of the Democrats is exposed once and for all. Cue maniacal laugh.

autothreads said...

Ann,

Don't buy a Flip just yet. After looking into it, I bought a couple of Sony Playsport Zx3 camcorders for my 3D video rig for CarsInDepth.com a new site for car enthusiasts that features 3D photos and video. So far I'm pretty happy with them.

Unlike the Flips which have unexpandable built in memory and internal rechargeable batterirs the Kodak Zx3 takes SD cards and replaceable Li-Ion batteries. That's important when you're shooting at an event so you don't run out of either memory or battery power. I don't know what kind of charger connection the Flip has but the Kodak has a micro USB port for charging. That means you can charge it (or run it if the batteries are low) from any computer USB port. The battery format is inexpensive so you can carry spares that are charged, and spare 8 gig memory cards which are not too expensive and each will hold about 2 hrs of video.

It also shoots 480, 720p, 720p 60fps (for sports), and 1080p, and is slightly less idiot proofed than the Flip.

The only problem that I've had is that the two cameras clearly have a different white balance. It doesn't really matter to me because when I'm processing 3D video and still, the software has a color matching tool. There are hobbyists who have already started hacking the Zx3 operating system so maybe in time like the Canon and CDHK (and Stereo Data Maker) you'll be able to reset the white balance.

I paid $140 at Best Buy a month and half ago but you can find them cheaper online.

They're built very well, water resistant to 10 meters, shock resistant too I think.

If you want to check out some of the videos that I've shot with them, you can go to CarsInDepth.com and just scroll for an post with an embedded video. You don't have to have 3D glasses, the YouTube 3D player has a lot of viewing options including left or right 2D.

Mason said...

Always happy to help.

MarkW said...

The Governor has proposed emergency legislation which will strip them of most of their collective bargaining rights.

Collective bargaining for teachers is not a constitutionally mandated 'right' -- collective bargaining for public employees (FDR presciently thought it was a bad idea) was not legal in Wisconsin until 1959. The legislature passed a law then to permit it, and they can pass a law now to restrict it.

Given what has happened in many states (California, in particular), it is long past time to reconsider the wisdom of collective bargaining for state employees:

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/a_liberal_argument_against_public_sector_unions.html

Or maybe you prefer another liberal (Willie Brown's) version:

Over the years, however, the civil service system has changed from one that protects jobs to one that runs the show.

The deal used to be that civil servants were paid less than private sector workers in exchange for an understanding that they had job security for life.

But we politicians, pushed by our friends in labor, gradually expanded pay and benefits to private-sector levels while keeping the job protections and layering on incredibly generous retirement packages that pay ex-workers almost as much as current workers.

Talking about this is politically unpopular and potentially even career suicide for most officeholders. But at some point, someone is going to have to get honest about the fact that 80 percent of the state, county and city budget deficits are due to employee costs.

Either we do something about it at the ballot box, or a judge will do something about in Bankruptcy Court. And if you think I'm kidding, just look at Vallejo.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/03/BA2V1BBGHH.DTL&feed=rss.williesworld#ixzz0bb069dMd

edutcher said...

Breitbart got one of the moron doctors writing excuses on Saturday to write one for him. I hope he insists on a prosecution for fraud.

William said...

Nobody tell them that it's President's Day and a holiday already. Let them think they're having a strike day.

Hah, good one! Almost 1500 teachers and not one smart enough to know today is a Federal holiday. Replace every last one with a homeschooling Mom or Dad and watch the test scores go up.

MayBee said...

The teachers using Walker's son should be publicly shamed.

Yes, but that's what you get when you look for the union label.

Bobby Dupea said...

This has moved from tiring to tiresome, noisy to noisome.

If there were true polling of teacher desires, I suspect that somewhere between 30-50% would be doing their jobs instead of acting out this TV Movie-of-the-Week version of protests gone by. And I think this is the real threat that the unions fear: they don't think they can earn enough votes each year to certify.

I wish some reporter would ask a union official if he thought it would be a problem to earn the votes of his union members each year, and if he fears not collecting his members' dues once they pay those dues manually and directly. Because if the unions are the paragons of care and concern that they're painted to be, why on earth would it be hard to earn member support?

There are two levels of nullification being represented here in the shouting and stamping of this small minority of Wisconsin public employees: a) the Democratic senators have decided to nullify the legal (and constitutionally mandatory) proceedings of the Senate, possibly placing themselves in criminal contempt of law; b) the national Democrats and BHO are so miserably lacking in self-confidence that they advocate nullifying the vote of an entire state. (If the People United Can Never Be Divided blah blah blah, why don't they view this effort by Walker as a huge boon to their future fortunes, much as Obamacare delivered the largest Republican wave since the 1930's? If Walker is who they say he is, why isn't he sinking the Republicans for a generation? The intrepid self-dealing phonies of the left should be thrilled by his every move, because it guarantees monoply Democratic control of Wisconsin politics beginning in the next election.)

If the "moderate Republicans" follow through and reward the strikers, they are abandoning democratic structure and rule. They will ratify a politics of nullification, and effectively end representative democracy in Wisconsin. They will create a superset of 'rights' -- the right to ignore electoral results provided one can assemble 10,000 or so noisy people.

If you listen to Walker's interview with Chris Wallace, it does appear that Walker is contemplating filing criminal contempt charges against the expatriot border-hopping Senators.

I think it's time to clear the Statehouse of the disruptive protesters, give them a public park out in the freezing rain in which to stand and chant their Hendrix-era slogans, give the wayward Senators 24 hours to return to constitutionally mandated duties, and cordially invite the opponents of this very modest legislation to make things better in the next election.

I do hope that Senators who wish to nullify the recent election while discarding their oaths of office are dispensed with, via criminal contempt or other methods.

There's a solution to all of this, if you are on the Left, and I wish Walker would start to hammer it: vote all of the Republicans out of office. It's odd that none of the protesters considers that a viable strategy. Perhaps they understand that Walker is representing the will of the people, and that creating a protected, minority class of unproductive and overpaid public employees is a lousy campaign plank.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

http://disruptthenarrative.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/liberal-wisconsin-political-cartoonist-sides-with/

bob said...

Public. Employee. Unions. Should. Be. Outlawed!

Teachers not in class Monday should be fired.

Doctors giving out bogus excuses should be severely disciplined.

mrs whatsit said...

Bobby, I have been thinking the same thing. If the union is so marvelous and so critically important to so many teachers, why is it panicking at the idea that it might have to (grow up and) collect its own dues? Why is it worried about recertifying every year? Should be a piece of cake if all these impassioned teachers need it so badly and care so much about it.

The thing to remember about penalties for the lying teachers stealing from taxpayers by calling in sick and handing in fraudulent doctors' notes is that they have tenure, which makes disciplining them next to impossible. In my state, at least, tenure makes firing a teacher --even for reasons that one would think were obvious and unimpeachable such as molesting the students -- costs upward of $250,000 and can take years.

mrs whatsit said...

Whoops, syntax fail. Sorry!

Blue@9 said...

This isn't a negotiation. We, the people, *tell* our public servants what they will be paid. Anyone who doesn't like it can quit and get a job that doesn't involve sucking at the tax dollar teat.

This.

The gov't isn't some private corporation scheming to increase profits on the backs of the proletariat. The gov't is elected by us, and we give it money to be spent wisely. It's fucking ridiculous we give collective bargaining rights to civil servants.

What is the fear, that the gov't will mistreat its own workers if they can't bargain collectively? If that's the case, why the fuck do you trust in big government?

Fuck, when the Tea Partiers rally against the overreach and power of government, the left labels them anarchist scum. Oh, but if the teachers want protection from that same government, it's fucking we shall overcome time.

Maybe the Tea Party should protest for collective bargaining rights against the IRS. They can demand the right to collect mandatory dues from all taxpayers and then pump the dough into campaigns to elect pliable politicians. Genius. I'm sure it'll work out just as brilliantly as the the whole public sector unionization fiasco.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

@ Blue@9

Brilliant, I think you cogently pulled together what many of us have been saying in separate bites for a long time.

Thread winner.

James said...

The Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature have been treating the Democrats like garbage. They'll tell them a vote is at 5pm but hold it at 4:55 so Democrats miss the vote. They don't inform them of bills being introduced. Look, we know the GOP is in control, but the Democrats never did this during their stint as the majority. Sure, they'd outvote the GOP, but at least the GOP could have their say in the debate process.


You appear to have a conveniently short memory.

In 2009, Jim Doyle and the Democratic-controlled Legislature pushed through a similar Budget Repair Bill in less than two days. That was the bill that featured odious elements like the Hospital Bed tax and Combined Reporting for Corporations. No public hearings were held on this bill.

Walker and the Republicans aren't doing anything that hasn't been done in the past; most recently in February 2009.

And rather than focus on the Democratic legislators who disrupted the Assembly meeting you're trying to focus on techicalities. Anyone with a modicum of common sense knows the Assembly vote would not have occurred at 4:55. In fact even when the Democrats marched in at 5:00 p.m. the vote hadn't even started.

damikesc said...

So, fls is out in favor of using kids as political weapons.

Nice to see him crack up so thoroughly.

Almost Ali said...

The Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature have been treating the Democrats like garbage.

Good.

GMay said...

MadisonMan said: "I'm not sure why you are seeing something dark in this. That is so not Wisconsin."

Granted I've only visited your state a couple of times, but is this the same Wisconsin where the Democrats in the legislature left the state over this rather than uphold their democratic duties?

Honestly, I'm not sure how much darker it gets than utterly and completely subverting the democratic process. So yeah, apparently some folks are capable of some fundamentally dark things in Wisconsin.

YMMV apparently.

The Drill SGT said...

kimsch said...
Yesterday union supporters at the Capitol were screaming: "Walker's kids go to public school! Walker's kids go to public school!"


And of course Obama supports Public education so much that he sends his gets to Sidwell Friends School. o killed the voucher program that allowed poor (mostly black) students in DC to do the same.

GMay said...

former law student said: "Walker is trying to screw out of their rights the teachers of his children. And these teachers should just sit back and take it?"

Apparently someone doesn't really have a good grasp on the concept of a "right".

The Drill SGT said...

At one point, the membership was so evenly divided on a vote to return to work Monday, they were asked to exit the meeting room and re-enter through two separate doors so an exact count could be taken. The vote was 741-731 to return Monday, but a later, more overwhelming vote to return Tuesday won the day.

I missed that the first time. They v oted to return on Monday and the motion passed, and they didnt like that outcome, so they voted again?

Keep counting votes till you win, the Democratic motto...

GMay said...

former law student says: "The Governor has proposed emergency legislation which will strip them of most of their collective bargaining rights."

Again with the misuse of the word "right". Apparently many Wisconsin educators are unfamiliar with the term too.

"Always be nice to the fellow in a position to spit into your food, is my motto. Not the governor's appparently."

Of course it's your motto. The tyrant is in the ultimate position to spit in your food, thus the liberal's love for the tyrant. This also explains why the liberal strongly desires the position to be able to spit in someone else's food.

mesquito said...

Keep counting votes till you win, the Democratic motto...

It's the Eurpean Union model. You hold referenda until you get the desirable result, and then you never, ever allow a referendum again.

Scott M said...

I missed that the first time. They v oted to return on Monday and the motion passed, and they didnt like that outcome, so they voted again?

Keep counting votes till you win, the Democratic motto...


This is the same party, the same mentality, that set forth very explicit rules for the 2008 presidential primaries. When Florida and Michigan disobeyed those rules, they had no idea how to deal with it.

This is the same party, the same mentality, that bucked the notion that John Kerry's senate seat, under a GOP governor, should be filled through a special election citing the need for the people to have a say. The same party, the same mentality, that, faced with the impending death of Ted Kennedy and a Democrat governor, completely reversed itself and claimed the seat should be filled by appointment.

Disgusting. Democracy by children. Spoiled children.

The Crack Emcee said...

It's the Eurpean Union model. You hold referenda until you get the desirable result, and then you never, ever allow a referendum again.

Oh, Gawd, I love Europe!

Pogo said...

"Scott, your son is in my class. I teach him, I protect him, I inspire him."

"I protect him."

That's a not-so-subtle threat.
Disgusting.

AprilApple said...

Teachers - Raise of hands - who has diarrhea or a migraine?

AprilApple said...

"Obama's kids go to a private school! Obama's kids go to a private school!"

Try to unravel that, lefties.

Pogo said...

"Scott, your son is in my class. I teach him, I protect him, I inspire him."

"Scott, your son is in my class. I protect him."

"Scott, your son is in my class.

"...your son ...is in my class."
"


As a father, I hear these words and want to strike that so-called teacher with my fists. Goddamned bastard.

Class factotum said...

From the National Review article Tosa Guy referenced:But it’s the bargaining rights that really scare me. We have to obtain and retain teachers for the future, or our educational system is going to crumble.”

Not true. A union does not improve a school. My parents both were graduated from small-town Wisconsin schools before there was a union and their education was just fine. I have some of my grandmother's old homework - she also went to a WI school - and in 8th grade, she was writing beautiful, knowledgeable essays about American history and making gorgeous, detailed drawings of a cell and of a cross-section of the human arm for her biology class.

I asked a very liberal, pro-union friend what the union does for schools - I said that at least the electricians and the plumbers unions define standards for the profession. He told me that the purpose of the union is not to improve the organization but to ensure a decent income for its members.

Class factotum said...

Someone noted that many of the protesting teachers are very young. Of course! They don't have children of their own and don't have to worry about finding a sitter. But note also that there are only a few thousand protesters. There are many teachers, including my next door neighbor, who is a fine person and a fine teacher and coach, who did not go to Madison. He stayed home and did his job.

There are many government employees who stayed home and did their jobs. For the most part, we have really good public services in Wisconsin: our streets get plowed, the trash gets picked up, the library is fabulous. I don't think anyone wants them not to be paid fairly. But the protesters are making the rest of the public employees look bad.

Sofa King said...

Well, there it is. I heard Erpenbach restating his list of demands on the radio this morning, threatening to hold the legislature hostage indefinitely.

Extradite them.

AprilApple said...

Who is paying for these undemocratic democrats to live in hotel rooms indefinitely?

Scott M said...

Well, there it is. I heard Erpenbach restating his list of demands on the radio this morning, threatening to hold the legislature hostage indefinitely.

At what legal point can these miscreants be found not to be upholding their oaths of office?

Roger J. said...

Apologies--did not read thru the entire thread and perhaps someone brought it up--As I have had a bit of training with FERPA (U of Memphis requires it for all faculty)--is not identifying a student as two douchenozzles have done a violation of FERPA protections?

Jay said...

Walker is trying to screw out of their rights the teachers of his children.

What "rights" would these be?

Jay said...

former law student said...

Walker is trying to screw out of their rights the teachers of his children. And these teachers should just sit back and take it?


And of course, the ends justify the means, don't they comrade?

Meade said...

former law student said...
"The people
United
Will never be
Defeated."

At one point, the membership was so evenly divided on a vote to return to work Monday, they were asked to exit the meeting room and re-enter through two separate doors so an exact count could be taken. The vote was 741-731 to return Monday, but a later, more overwhelming vote to return Tuesday won the day.

These don't appear to be people united.

Kristin Voss, a social studies teacher at Memorial High School, said she attended planning to vote to return Monday because she worried that public opinion was turning against teachers. But she changed her mind after hearing concerns about how reduced pressure on the Legislature could defeat the movement.
"If we don't continue with similar action, the real change that needs to be done, won't be done," Voss said.


A teacher

Conflicted

Will never be

Effective.

Jay said...

MadisonMan said...

Why does she mention the son?

So the Gov connects a face to the protest.

I'm not sure why you are seeing something dark in this. That is so not Wisconsin.


I'm not sure why you're head is in the sand, but I'm guessing you are one of these state public employees.

Roger J. said...

Oops: FERPA--Federal Education Records Protection Act--the thrust of which (inter alia) is to provide students anonymity except for academic issues.

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roger J. said...

Mad Man--I assume you do not hold a teaching position at the U of WI--do you think any of the U of WI faculty could identify a student in a public forum as was done to Gov Walker's children?

I will defer to Palladian and Professor Althouse for their opinions as well.

Jay said...

Scott, your son is in my class. I teach him, I protect him, I inspire him."

Me, me, I,I

Exactly reflective of the modern "progressive"

TosaGuy said...

I said: "Unfortunately, asshat teachers from my city are singling out the Walker children entrusted in their care."


MM Responded:

That's one interpretation to that story.

Scott, your son is in my class. I teach him, I protect him, I inspire him.

Singling out because she doesn't mention the other students?"


I reply:

You don't mention the children, period. I spoke with the school board regarding this issue and the board and superintendent established a policy with the teachers regarding this issue well before the current proposal. These children are off limits, period.

Sure, the sign is mild mannered, but its a veiled threat of intimidation nonetheless. As a Wauwatosa taxpayer I will not tolerate that.

JAL said...

'Scott, your son is in my class.

"...your son ...is in my class.""


1. No sweetie, he is not "in" your class, because YOU are not "in" your class.

2. If I were "Scott" this would no longer be true starting the day that school resumes.

If I were Scott I would remove my children from the classes of those who expoited their teaching relationship with my children for political chaff.

MadisonMan said...

Mad Man--I assume you do not hold a teaching position at the U of WI--do you think any of the U of WI faculty could identify a student in a public forum as was done to Gov Walker's children?

Note that I did not agree with the teachers' actions. I just don't see much of a dark threat. Maybe I know too many teachers in Madison, and they don't project much of a threatening stance. Are 'tosa Teachers all that ominous? Maybe I read too much into TosaGuy's singling out phrase.

I do not now teach at UW, although I have in the past. I do teach, sometimes, at the local Tech college. You can ask me who's in my class whenever you want, but you'll not learn much.

(Is that an okay straight line to end with?)

Bobby Dupea said...

The first thing the NJ teachers union did against Christie is blast email a 'joke' to members suggesting that they pray for Christie's death.

Assassination humor, hah-hah-hah.

Anyway, people who can't argue something on the merits just impugn motives or attack personalities. I would like to see Christie's response if one of these body-temp IQ teachers tried to weaponize one of his children. It wouldn't be quite so decorous, I suspect.

Walker is really too good for many of his enemies.

Roger J. said...

Mad Man--I do think you are a voice of sanity and moderation in most discussions and I have always appreciated your posts.

But on this one I think you dodged my question about FERPA--you have had to have orientations on FERPA in your academic positions--Here's the question: do you believe the teachers that identified Gov Walker's kids in a public forum are in violation of FERPA?

Question two: do you think that any teacher anywhere can identify the students in their class in a public forum.

Roger J. said...

Mad Man--as to your list sentence--I never figure I teach the students anything--they teach themselves and I just try to keep them focused :)

Sofa King said...

Note that I did not agree with the teachers' actions. I just don't see much of a dark threat. Maybe I know too many teachers in Madison, and they don't project much of a threatening stance.

It only takes one bad apple to spoil the barrel. Given the alarming number of teachers who turn out to be child rapists, and especially considering how much the extremist rhetoric has been dialed up, I don't think you can simply assume that there is absolutely nothing to be worried about.

MadisonMan said...

I recall taking the FERPA test -- but that was for teaching adults. I am sure the restrictions for public school students are much more stringent. We sign, annually, a consent form so that our kids' image can be used (and I think my daughter is actually on the MMSD website). As far as disclosing the teacher-student relationship, I've seen some in the paper in the context of sport participants. (He's a great quarterback, and he's doing very well in my Algebra class too! -- that sort of thing) My assumption has always been that consent had been given for something like that. I rather doubt this has occurred here, although knowledge that Walker's kids go to public school was revealed a long time ago, probably by the Governor and the Mrs.

I'm pretty sure the teacher stepped over the line, yes, in that reveal. I don't see a threat though.

I hope that clarifies things.

Roger J. said...

Thanks for the clarification Mad Man--I frankly dont see a threat there either, but IMO it was remarkably poor judgment on the teacher's parts--Probably, I suspect, because they really didnt pay attention to or absorb the implications of FERPA.

MadisonMan said...

Just went through the daughter's facebook photos, and she took a picture of that teacher's sign too. Heh.

Brian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Are your schools ordinarily open on Federal holidays? Ours in OR aren't.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Rose,

Heh - here in CA schools have the week off for President's week. Was wondering if Wisconsin did too, so you answered my question.

In Marin County, they called that "ski week" ;-) Here in Oregon, it's just the day.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Bob,

The Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature have been treating the Democrats like garbage. They'll tell them a vote is at 5pm but hold it at 4:55 so Democrats miss the vote.

But how can that be, if without the Democrats there's no quorum?

MadisonMan said...

The 20-vote quorum is only needed for budget bills.

The Musket said...

I think teachers in general have an over inflated opinion about themselves and how inspirational they are.