February 11, 2011

"[A]ny male at any time will be permitted in girls’ bathrooms, showers and change rooms as long as they have an ‘innate feeling’ of being female..."

That's what opponents say about Bill C-389 would amend the Canadian Human Rights Act to forbid discrimination on the basis of "gender identity" or "gender expression."

The bill probably won't pass, but here's a column favoring it. Excerpt:
Society takes for granted that there are two distinct sexes, with two corresponding ways of expressing gender identity. And we have concocted a range of stereotypes to reinforce the supposed chasms of difference between men and women, boys and girls.
Despite the fact that biologists such as Brown University professor Anne Fausto-Sterling have demonstrated that “nature” itself yields not two distinct sexes but as many as five in a small but still significant number of cases, we still think male or female is something constant and unchanging. Sex is not only something viewed as uncomplicated and self-evident, but masculinity and femininity are tied to one’s birth-assigned sex.

Transsexual and transgendered individuals expose the shortcomings of our narrow categories. Because they trouble this vision of male and female, they have been “socially erased,” to borrow a term from Concordia Professor Viviane Namaste...

As faculty members teaching in the sexual studies minor program at Carleton University, we are not surprised by the comments offered by Charles McVety, president of the Canada Christian College in Toronto in The Globe. [see blog post title, above.] Mr. McVety’s use of the language of pedophilia, and other forms of sexual predation, criminal opportunism and violence within female-specific spaces serves as a perfect example of the pathologization, criminalization and fear-mongering that continues to mark the lives of those within the trans communities.

83 comments:

Pogo said...

I feel pretty, oh so pretty.

Hey, Velma, any TP in yer stall? Thanks!

traditionalguy said...

It sure was an easier world to live in when there were men and women who treated one another by rules that respected La difference. The world being constructed while we all remain silent is a tail wagging the dog insanity world making man and woman into meaningless categories so the several thousand "victims" can demand everybody else change so they will feel better.

AllenS said...

Velma: "No there isn't. Pogo, do you have change, like two fives for a ten?"

JAL said...

Call me old fashioned, but I don't care how you feel inside when it comes to excretory functions and body exposure.

If you've got female boobies (real, fake or scars) and a vagina, you get to pee, poop, shower and change in one area.

If you've got a penis you get to pee, poop, shower and change clothes in a different area.

If you want mixed areas, set them up. Separately. Knock yourself out.

Learn whatever form of modesty it takes to feel better about yourself if you have to pee with the wrong internal feelers.

The whole world doesn't have to change becasue of your feelings.

Adapt.

jr565 said...

"Transsexual and transgendered individuals expose the shortcomings of our narrow categories. Because they trouble this vision of male and female, they have been “socially erased,” to borrow a term from Concordia Professor Viviane Namaste... "

Except don't transgendered people in fact reinforce the narrow categories? Because most of them identify as male or female (The whole point of why they are trying to change their sex).
Getting from point a to point b though means that they have to transition from one sex to another using either surgery or hormones or both. until they become their new sex (if adding plastic parts actually makes one a different sex) they are simply in a period of transition. That is not a separate sex.

Pogo said...

So if I'm really a woman with a penis, and dress like a man because actually I'm a butch lesbian, then it's a hate crime for you to shriek when I use the ladies room.

Kewl.

JAL said...

My we are a sensitive group today.

The Drill SGT said...

Amazing that the same academic leftist, feminist, etc..ist thinking that can argue that all sex is rape, women are always truthful about rape, date rape is endemic, can buy into the idea that having random men self ratify their right to stalk girl's bathrooms.

who'd a thunk it...?

David said...

Society takes for granted that there are two distinct sexes, with two corresponding ways of expressing gender identity.

You know, I do. I really, really, do.

Fred4Pres said...

""[A]ny male at any time will be permitted in girls’ bathrooms, showers and change rooms as long as they have a feeling of being in any female..."

Scott M said...

Society takes for granted that there are two distinct sexes,

No, biology does that and for good reason.

with two corresponding ways of expressing gender identity

There are obviously multiple ways of expressing gender identity. Sex between two people is a special thing. Sex between five is Olympian.

And we have concocted a range of stereotypes to reinforce the supposed chasms of difference between men and women, boys and girls.

That's because there are a huge range of differences between men and women, boys and girls, despite what the multiculti crowd have been trying to forcefeed us for decades. In fact, they've been at it for so long that the paint isn't rubbing off to expose the truth long hidden...it's peeling off with age.

There will be no second coat.

Sixty Grit said...

I am old enough to remember when the word "tranny" was slang for transmission. You would get some tranny work done. Now, if you say that, people look at you as if you are Eddie Murphy.

Greg said...

Actually it's already passed in the house of commons, only the senate can block it now. Canada's senate rarely blocks anything, it's unelected and blocking the house always raises a stink. They may make suggested amendments though.

Original Mike said...

Ooooh, Canada.

Freeman Hunt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickelit said...

Trannys scare me

Original Mike said...

"Amazing that the same academic leftist, feminist, etc..ist thinking that can argue that all sex is rape, women are always truthful about rape, date rape is endemic, can buy into the idea that having random men self ratify their right to stalk girl's bathrooms."

Not only are they silly, they're stupid too.

Freeman Hunt said...

the sexual studies minor program at Carleton University

What parents are paying for that? They're getting conned.

Bob_R said...

I hate to break it to the idiot professors but the number of people who engage in "pedophilia, and other forms of sexual predation, criminal opportunism and violence within female-specific spaces" is MUCH larger than the number of people with plumbing other than the two standard models. People with nonstandard plumbing have my sympathy and it would be nice if we can make some effort to accommodate them. But a bone-headed law like this is not the answer.

PatHMV said...

So to prosecute actual perverts, if this law passes, you'll have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the wanker who sneaks into the girl's bathroom does NOT have an "innate feeling" of being female?

Among other problems, the people who support laws like this have no understanding of the practical realities of the world.

If a genetic, physical male truly identifies as a female and is going through the transgendering process, I'm betting he winds up using the stalls in the ladies room with no problems, because nobody notices. But if some guy with a heavy 5 o'clock shadow and an ill-fitting baggy dress tries it, they get the crap beat out of them for trying to sneak into the girls' room and spy.

The vast, massively enormous percentage of human beings DO come in 2 flavors, male and female. That there are some problems with a very, very, exceedingly small subset of the population does not mean that we must or should rearrange all the rest of us to accommodate them. Such people ARE different from the rest of us. That's an actual, unavoidable fact, not the rest of us just being mean.

Freeman Hunt said...

"I'm getting a minor in Irrelevant, Obnoxious Twittery."

Freeman Hunt said...

I remember visiting Smith and touring the library. There were a few highly elevated study carrels.

"What are those?"
"Those are the tree house carrels."
"What are they for?"
"You know, if you feel like studying up there, like you're in a tree house."

Pogo said...

Magical thinking used to be considered a fundamental dimension of a child's mind.

Now it's the basis for Canadian law.

Lem said...

I dont understand how the leap is made that a sign on a door gives you some sort of self worth.. If it does then how is that the responsibility of everyone else to ameliorate.

I mean I've done it outdoors in the woods.. used a de-corned cob to clean up.. It felt good ;)

Henry said...

Society takes for granted that there are two distinct sexes...

It's a fair cop, but Society is to blame.

Scott M said...

Magical thinking used to be considered a fundamental dimension of a child's mind. Now it's the basis for Canadian law.

Draad wenner.

Quayle said...

they have been “socially erased,”

The Brown university professor proved - proved, mind you! - that there are more than 2 genders.

It's all science! you have to respect science!

Except the part where they claim that it was a free-will choice of society that erased the other potpourri genders and not a Darwinian un-survival of the un-fittest?

I mean its a particular type of science. It's normative science.

rhhardin said...

What does this do to Canada's separate entrances for men and women in bars, is the question.

Assuming they're still there from the 60s (Vancouver), not to generalize.

AJ Lynch said...

Gender identity is the latest fad amongst the PC crowd. My township was crowing how proud it was when it added gender identity protection to its discrimination laws. I suspect it is new product line and a growth industry for sleazbag lawyers and the libruls in power eat it up.

Maguro said...

This sort of thing is all well and good until someone leaves the seat up. Then all hell breaks loose.

Shanna said...

There is a very easy test of whether you are male or female. It has nothing to do with feelings.

This seems potentially dangerous. Also, stupid.

Triangle Man said...

It's not about having an innate feeling of being female, these men are just really into standing in very long lines.

virgil xenophon said...

This all comes from The Onion, right? I mean
no self-respecting academic would....oh, sorry, Emily Litella time...

PS: Yet more evidence (as if any were needed these days) that any connection between the real world and academia has long gone the way of the passenger pigeon..


wv: pillis (After reading this I NEED some)

Pogo said...

Does one measure "the innate feeling of being female" with a ruler?

MadisonMan said...

From the linked-to article (the one supporting it):

Since New Democratic MP Bill Siksay’s private member’s bill was presented to the Commons justice committee in the summer

I guess we know which bathroom he's in.

Snark aside, I guess I can understand how a tranny, pre-op or not, might feel uncomfortable in the 'wrong' room. Get over it, I'd tell them. If you are in a stall, no one knows what you're packing.

Canada must be running smoothly on all 8 cylinders if their government has time to worry about this.

k*thy said...

Gender identity is the latest fad amongst the PC crowd.

Actually, I believe there's a lot of science behind it.

South African Caster Semenya. She has confused and been confused by people's reactions her whole life. I don't think things are as clear cut as we'd like to believe.

DADvocate said...

Sex is not only something viewed as uncomplicated and self-evident, but masculinity and femininity are tied to one’s birth-assigned sex.

Sometines things are uncomplicated and self-evident and efforts to prove otherwise are bullshit. Reminds me of a guy I went to high school with who, after several years of therapy during his 30s, decided to have a sex change operation. Now he is a 6' 4" former professional minor league hockey player transexual lesbian. And, they call therapy MENTAL HEALTH treatment. No where is mental health more absent than in the mental health professions.

MadisonMan said...

South African Caster Semenya. She has confused and been confused by people's reactions her whole life. I don't think things are as clear cut as we'd like to believe.

Still, if she's dressed as a woman, and goes into use a stall in the women's room, or dresses as a man and uses a stall in a men's room, how is that a problem? You'd think that someone with an 'innate feeling' of being male or female is going to dress the part.

People like to complain about the hand that has been dealt them. Some expect the Govt to punish the rest of Society for their lousy luck. Maybe punish is the wrong word. Complicate might be better.

Bruce Hayden said...

I do think that this will be abused more than used as expected.

I am reminded of a situation down in Scottsdale a year or two ago. A couple of people got banned from one of the clubs there for hanging out in the women's room. Seems that they were claiming to be trannies, were dressed in female attire, but were (still) obviously male, with the beard shadow, male sex organ, etc. They were creeping out all the women there, and given the choice of losing their female crowd (and all the guys trying to meet said female crowd) or a small group of possible trannies, they picked the later.

Apparently, this discrimination will possibly soon be illegal up north there.

I do, to some extent, feel a little sorry for western women. They worked so hard for gender equality, and, then it got extended to gays, and from there to trannies. And, now they lose one of their last sanctuaries from men through that same gender equality.

I don't feel though as sorry as maybe I should, because we men lost our last sanctuaries a generation ago through women's attempts at gender equality.

ricpic said...

The transgendered and the transexuals have been "socially erased?" Actually they're bold as brass and all those who dare criticize them or, heaven forbid, joke about them, are being systematically erased. Want to be a career academic or have a media career or in fact have any career dominated by the chattering class? Don't you dare state the obvious -- freaks are freaks.

Freder Frederson said...

There is a very easy test of whether you are male or female. It has nothing to do with feelings.

For most of the population, this is true. For a small minority, certainly not. There are people who are genetically neither male nor female and also those who are genetically one or the other yet have opposite (or both) genitalia.

Scott M said...

NOBODY MENTION SHOWERS IN A LOCKER ROOM OR ALL HELL WILL BREAK LOOSE ON THIS THREAD. REMEMBER...DON'T MENTION SHOWERS IN GYMS, SCHOOLS, MILITARY, ETC, AND THEIR EFFECT ON INNATE FEELINGS IN THIS THREAD OR THE UNIVERSE AS WE KNOW IT WILL COL

Skyler said...

This is a sickness of western civilization.

Certainly there are sexual anomalies, such as those that were physically malformed from birth, or have an insensitivity to testosterone for example, but this does not excuse or explain the political agenda we're seeing today.

Transgender is just a very expensive surgical transvestite and deserves as much ridicule, or more.

Scott M said...

but this does not excuse or explain the political agenda we're seeing today

I suggest that this sort of thought is a byproduct of economic affluence. It will die off as we head into 100%GDP/Debt-land and come back as soon as we have another 50's.

Unfortunately.

edutcher said...

There's a reason Canada is justified considering itself a Third World nation.

And Freder reminds us that the Left will twist itself in as many knots as it can to get a few more votes by organizing more communities.

PS I notice the opposite, a female having the 'innate feeling' of being male, isn't mentioned.

Which means somebody assumes girls don't feel 'lusty' at times.

How Victorian.

Sixty Grit said...

Freder uses the word "genitalia" as if he has some.

Skyler said...

We just got our official "tier 2" end of Don't Ask briefing yesterday. The major take away is that nothing has changed.

Nothing except that homosexuals are no longer being kicked out or refused admittance to the USMC.

So, we've drastically altered a pretty fundamental part of our society's mores and we announce that nothing has changed.

Soon, we'll be allowing surgical transvestites in the military and announcing that "nothing has changed."

And by that time we'll have to start drafting people because who wants to hang out with that kind of person? Come join the army, lad, and show that you're just as tough as the sissy boy who wears a dress.

We're on the fast part of the downward spiral.

Geoff Matthews said...

I don't think the point was that transexuals were likely to molest children, but that pedophiles were likely to use this loophole to gain access to children.

Pastafarian said...

Well, we just got done with the argument that openly gay men in the military have every right to shower with straight men, and that this doesn't negatively affect the straight men in any way.

Right?

So this seems the next natural step: Any man that feels like it can go in and shower with women at the YWCA. How does that negatively affect the women? What, they're afraid that they'll be leered at? Grow up!

I'd like to see a defender of the repeal of DADT, like Althouse, give a logically consistent argument against this Canadian bill, if they oppose it.

Bruce Hayden said...

There are people who are genetically neither male nor female and also those who are genetically one or the other yet have opposite (or both) genitalia.

I would possibly agree to some extent with the later, but question the former. So far, I have seen little evidence that very many trannies have non-standard genetics. Serial rapists, yes. Too many Y chromosomes can apparently be a hazard to society.

I could be mistaken, but I would suggest that the vast majority of trannies, one way or another, have pretty standard sexual genetics. Either XY or XX, with their genetics expressing their original gender.

In any case, the question invariably comes down to the question of whether we want to have obvious males hanging around inside women's restrooms.

Palladian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bruce Hayden said...

I'd like to see a defender of the repeal of DADT, like Althouse, give a logically consistent argument against this Canadian bill, if they oppose it.

It's easy. DADT primarily affected men, and this primarily affects women.

Palladian said...

"We're on the fast part of the downward spiral."

Hopefully you'll be the first to get sucked down the drain.

Palladian said...

"I'd like to see a defender of the repeal of DADT, like Althouse, give a logically consistent argument against this Canadian bill, if they oppose it."

Gay men have cocks. People with cocks shower and poop in the same facilities. Gay women have pussies. People with pussies shower and poop in the same facilities.

No cock? Poop and shower with ladies. No pussy? Poop and shower with lads. Pro DADT-repeal, anti nonsense law from Canada.

[edited for friendliness]

Pastafarian said...

OK; so why should we differentiate based on genitalia? Is this based on some principle? Or on convenience?

Let's get to the crux of the matter: Why do we have separate showers at all? Why shouldn't heterosexual men be allowed to shower with women?

Now, I'm not suggesting that we be allowed to soap them into a lather -- that would be assault. But if my eyes happen to wander, what harm is it to that woman showering a few feet away?

I suggest that it's because this makes women feel uncomfortable. Prudish bitches that they are.

Now, suppose that this same woman has to share a shower with another woman who's announced that she's a lesbian. Might this same woman feel the same level of discomfort under this woman's gaze?

(Oh, wait a minute -- I'm having Cinemax flashbacks -- must...rub one out...ahh, there, that's better.)

I'd just like to know, Palladian, why you get to shower with those to whom you're sexually attracted; while I'm once again dragged down to the local police station in my bathrobe for attempting to do the same thing. Your position seems self-serving.

Shanna said...

For most of the population, this is true. For a small minority, certainly not. There are people who are genetically neither male nor female and also those who are genetically one or the other yet have opposite (or both) genitalia.

A teeny tiny minority that is probably not getting any flak for this.

Really, the only people that anybody complains about entering a restroom are very masculine guys. And really if someone is really in the process of switching over genders, and aren’t being overtly creepy, probably no one will say boo when they are in the restroom. But we need to reserve the option of kicking creepy people out of restrooms of the opposite sex.

Pastafarian said...

Don't worry, Shanna, I'll wear something feminine -- I have a pink suede loincloth at the ready. I'll even shave my back and shoulders. See you at the Y!

Scott M said...

But we need to reserve the option of kicking creepy people out of restrooms of the opposite sex.

If you're a man in this society, you're considered creepy until proven otherwise. There's your crux.

TheThinMan said...

"Any male...as long as they"

What's wrong with these people? Is it against the law to say "he" under any circumstances?

He He He He He He He

Ok, come arrest me.

Pastafarian said...

ScottM said: "There's your crux."

Dammit, ScottM, now you have me thinking about Shanna's crux. Unnngh...unghhh...uhhhh...OK, now I'm alright.

And: "If you're a man in this society, you're considered creepy until proven otherwise."

You know, that's just the position that those damned stormtrooper local police took, dragging me down to the stationhouse in my robe and flip-flops.

Palladian said...

"I'd just like to know, Palladian, why you get to shower with those to whom you're sexually attracted"

You know, I'm just not going to get into it again. You lost. Suck it. Or, don't, as the case may be.

MadisonMan said...

I'd just like to know, Palladian, why you get to shower with those to whom you're sexually attracted;

The underlying assumption seems to be that Palladian is attracted to every man under a showerhead. Where is the supporting evidence for that?

The notion that a gay man showering with other men - of unknown sexual tastes - is going to be attracted sexually to those men is a little unrealistic.

Scott M said...

You know, I'm just not going to get into it again. You lost. Suck it. Or, don't, as the case may be.

If DADT is ever reinstated and you try to make the argument again, just remember those words. It doesn't even have to be DADT. Insert any policy debate you care about.

Scott M said...

The notion that a gay man showering with other men - of unknown sexual tastes - is going to be attracted sexually to those men is a little unrealistic.

So is the notion that I'm going to be lecherous toward every hotbox in a woman's barracks just because I get to shower in their communal bathroom. Yet that's still in place.

Jacq said...

Pay no attention to my erection; it's female.

Palladian said...

"If DADT is ever reinstated and you try to make the argument again, just remember those words."

Don't worry, "suck it" is always on the tip of my tongue.

MadisonMan said...

The truth is: It's a bad idea to allow sexual relationships between co-workers. Maybe it's such a bad idea they should prohibit it, and enforce the prohibition.

Pastafarian said...

Palladian said: "You know, I'm just not going to get into it again."

OK, fair enough. I'm sorry I couldn't make the argument interesting enough to draw you into it. You and I don't disagree on much, to be honest, and when the rare opportunity for a scrap arises, I'm right there with the singlet, headgear, and Crisco, ready to go, because you're one of the best commenters here.

Palladian said...

Likewise, Pastafarian. Although I'd normally relish the chance to wrestle in Crisco with a smart, virile straight man, I'm simply "spent" as far as arguing over the subject of public showers and gays.

Personally, I find all communal bathrooms and showers barbaric, and won't use either unless I'm desperate. It's weird to me that people think of a shower or a bathroom as a "sexy" place; for me, they're anti-erection Kryptonite. I prefer copulating on soft surfaces, without the smell of stale urine in the air. I guess I'm old-fashioned that way. I'm also old-fashioned in my belief that external genetalia should be the segregating criterion for public facilities, not the content of your character.

Moose said...

Damnit Pogo!!!

Timon said...

Why don't we do it in the road?

Fred4Pres said...

I am pretty sure if some transgender individual on the road to sexual recovery takes a shower with the ladies in some lockeroom, there might be a reaction if they look down and "ops, there it is."

Nora said...

If a man has an 'innate feeling' that he is Louis XIV he'll be considered raving mad and most probably diagnozed with schisophrenia. However, if a man has an 'inner feeling' of being a women, he is just extending our gender perseption? Right, I'm convinced.

Clyde said...

Speaking of the Taco Cafe!

knox said...

My we are a sensitive group today.

LMAO

knox said...

Transgender is just a very expensive surgical transvestite and deserves as much ridicule, or more.

That's a pretty definitive statement, there!

Imagine you had a child who was afflicted with the problems you belittle. Is it still as easy to be dismissive?

Paul said...

Look guys.. I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body!

So is it safe for me to use the ladies shower now?

Skyler said...

Imagine you had a child who was afflicted with the problems you belittle. Is it still as easy to be dismissive?


Belittle? No, I think they are monstrous.

A normal healthy person who thinks that they are not what they are has some serious problems that will not be solved by catering to their whim.

It's a free country. If they want to do these things to themselves, that's their business. I don't like it when the rest of us are required to take leave of our senses for their perversity.

Palladian said...

Monstrous! Lol. You are such a hilarious queen, Skyler. Hope you and your wife, the lovely filly beside you in your profile picture, are doing well.

Fernandinande said...

People with psycho-sexual problems have moral priority over everyone else: once this idea is accepted, everything will be sweetness and light.

Zoe Brain said...

Legislation that gives the same kind of protection to trans people as the Canadian bill is now already in force for 40% of the US population.

And has been for up to 35 years.

Number of times a "sexual predator" has even attempted to use it as an excuse? Zero.

None.

Zilch.

Not once. Not in 35 years.

The argument is "well someday.. maybe.. they might. Really. One day. It could. Just because it's never happened doesn't mean it can't, no matter what the lawyers say about it. We can't be too careful".

And that justifies the discrimination that results in the following:

# Respondents were nearly four times more likely to live in extreme poverty, with household income of less than $10,000.
# Respondents were twice as likely to be unemployed compared to the population as a whole. Half of those surveyed reported experiencing harassment or other mistreatment in the workplace, and one in four were fired because of their gender identity or expression.
# Housing discrimination was also common. 19% reported being refused a home or apartment and 11% reported being evicted because of their gender identity or expression. One in five respondents experienced homelessness because of their gender identity or expression.
# An astonishing 41% of respondents reported attempting suicide, compared to only 1.6% of the general population.
# Discrimination in health care and poor health outcomes were frequently experienced by respondents. 19% reported being refused care due to bias against transgender or gender-nonconforming people

Duncan said...

"as many as five"

Are we guaranteed to stop at five or will more genders be discovered?

I want some kind of promise that like the GLBTCQ... formulation, the list will be frozen (soon) at a number less than infinity.

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