October 27, 2010

Supposed "Big Althouse Projects" that purportedly prove that I'm "deeply conservative."

Hmm. I'm surprised I even ran across this. It's buried in a comments thread over in a Bloggingheads diavlog — and I'm not one of the "heads" — which I happened to start reading. Somehow my name comes up in a conversation about people who are hard to pin down politically. This commenter, one "Twinswords," insists that my "conservatism is irrefutable":

My take on her has always been this: Due to her sharp analytical mind and her legal training, she knows how to put forward the best possible argument. During the period when she rose to blogging prominence, conservatism as an ideology was deeply discredited and unpopular -- especially in an academic setting, and doubly so in Madison, Wisconsin. She recognized that branding her arguments as "conservative" would only serve to weaken them. Not for legitimate reasons having to do with the merits of what she was saying, but merely because in the 2005-2008 timeframe, conservatism was very unpopular. I suspect this is one factor in her constant lying about being a conservative.

But I'm as much of an Althousaholic as anyone: I read her blog daily for years. I've watched every diavlog she's done on BhTV. I have listened to at least a dozen of her debates on Wisconsin Public Radio. And I have listened to many of her old Audible Althouses.

If I were to judge her exclusively by her early BhTV appearances, it would be easier to be confused about her conservative bias; she worked hard to hide it. But if you look at her whole body of work, you can't escape the conclusion that she's deeply conservative.

Big Althouse Projects:

-- Before Obama was nominated: Destroy Hillary Clinton, defend Bush and Cheney. Defend GWoT, Iraq war.

-- After Palin was nominated: Defend and promote Palin. She was BhTV's go-to-'head for Palin defense for about a year straight.

-- From about mid-2009 - present: Defend and promote the tea party

-- Since Jan. 20, 2009: Damage Obama and the Democrats by promoting every meme, true or false, that can be used against them.

225 comments:

1 – 200 of 225   Newer›   Newest»
Bob said...

Criticisms don't take into account her voting record, obviously. Isn't Ann on record as voting for both Kerry and Obama? Hardly the actions of a deeply conservative individual.

Ann Althouse said...

@Bob Elsewhere, the same commenter says: "Althouse explained multiple times why she didn't vote for McCain: She wanted a "true" conservative, someone like Rush Limbaugh, and thought a weak conservative like McCain would damage conservatism and the conservative movement."

But somebody else says: "Admittedly I don't follow her all that closely (I read her blog from time to time, more when it's linked by others), but do you know of some specific issues where she's 'extremely right wing'? Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that she is pro choice, pro gay marriage, and possessing a few other issue positions that would place her firmly in the 'social liberal' camp. Maybe some tax issues? I placed Althouse in the 'contrarian liberal' camp alongside Mickey Kaus."

Seven Machos said...

The problem so many leftists have is pretty much analogous to the one drop of blood thing racialists of the nineteenth century had. If you come down on the conservative side of an issue, even if you get there in a completely different way than the (nonexistent) mouth-breathing conservative hick would, you are 100 percent conservative.

traditionalguy said...

Wow, Professor, you are such a slick Blogger that all of that happened right under my nose and I never saw it. Either Twinswords needs remedial reading or I need it. His analysis seems to say that your earthy pictures of nature combine with your legal training requiring evidence from the real world in an argument has altered your consciousness. Or maybe you are just far too intelligent for him to comprehend. He clearly likes your writing ability. Maybe that is all you can hope for.

garage mahal said...

A very smart man once said this: Althouse voting for Obama is like buying a Barbie to mutilate it.

bigarmwoman said...

And I'll bet that if you put Althouse on a scale, she would weigh less than a duck! Obviously she's a witch! Or a conservative, whatever. Burn her! Burn her!

I mean seriously, did anyone else get a witch-hunt vibe from all of that "evidence?"

Seven Machos said...

Conservative blogs bore the living fuck out of me. I would not come here if I thought Althouse was conservative. Does she have conservative positions? Yes. She also has liberal ones. She also has some twisted admiration for that kook John Paul Stevens, for Chrissake.

Give it a rest, you leftist loons. Lockstep conformity is banal and never likely to lead to a good result.

Maguro said...

Hey, it's all relative. Robert Cook considers Obama deeply conservative.

traditionalguy said...

What seven Machos said.

LonewackoDotCom said...

Odd, my take is more of as a Goldie Hawn (as a character, not as the person herself) who shows little real knowledge of politics between pictures of dudes in shorts. Kinda like a slightly more self-aware, less extremist Victoria Jackson.

So, for instance, you've got Althouse defending the duo who got us into an elective war, who completely bungled the invasion (letting radioactive material and weapons loose, failing to shut down propaganda outlets, etc. etc. etc.), who apparently thought that all they had to do was get rid of Saddam and everything would fall into place, and who eventually spent $3 trillion. And, Althouse defends them.

Nowadays, Althouse defends and supports the tea party movement, one of the worst things to happen to the U.S. outside of major calamities, wars, and terror attacks. The 'partiers lie and smear constantly; they play dress-up games and act like little kids; they throw tantrums at public meetings like little kids; and, all to ultimately help Armey's funders and the Kochs make more money. I really have seen nothing like it.

Now, since this comment is anti-stupidity, expect partiers to lie and smear about me. They aren't capable of making a valid, logical argument against anything I've ever written about them; all they can do is lie and smear.

Ask the teaparty "patriots" why they almost completely ignored immigration for over a year.

Seven Machos said...

expect partiers to lie and smear about me

Dude, listen to me: nobody cares about you. You are a gnat swimming in an ocean. Give up. You are not good at your job.

PETER V. BELLA said...

I always thought you more of an independent type of person- voting your intelligence versus blind loyalty to some party or ideology.

I actually respect people who vote for a reason versus voting blindly for a party. It demonstrates they actually did some research and critical thinking versus just pure loyalty to antediluvian party politics or foolsish ideology.

El Pollo Real said...

...insists that Althouse's conservatism is irrefutable

You can easily refudiate that!

LonewackoDotCom said...

Another way to look at it is that Althouse is an entertainer. She's not really moving the U.S. forward, she's just putting on a show. And, like some entertainers, she's having a pernicious impact (for reasons I could mention but won't). Her impact is like those entertainers who in effect encourage kids to smoke pot. Not as bad as those who encourage kids to use heroin or rob liquor stores, but still bad for society.

PETER V. BELLA said...

The 'partiers lie and smear constantly; they play dress-up games and act like little kids; they throw tantrums at public meetings like little kids; and, all to ultimately help Armey's funders and the Kochs make more money. I really have seen nothing like it.

You mean you have not been paying attention to the Democratic Party for the past, oh say, forty years?

Seven Machos said...

She's not really moving the U.S. forward

What in the fuck makes you think that Althouse has any desire to move the United States forward? Why is that her job?

One thing is abundantly clear, Wacko: you most certainly are not moving the United States anywhere.

Good luck deportin' those illegals, though. Because that's going to happen. You betcha.

traditionalguy said...

LonerWacko...Is a "partier" a Tea Party supporter? Assuming you mean that, the criticisms you make are valid on the surface. So what. Leadership change is their goal. That requires the focus. Neither Obama nor the GOP insiders are going to leave town without a fight. The rest of your less than perfect findings against them can be cleaned up later. You are letting perfection become the enemy of the good. In a fight it is better to act right now on a good plan than to sit around until it is a perfect plan, but by then your enemy has taken the offensive putting your perfect plans off as you only defend yourself. That is a teaching for commanders in a war from George Patton.

rcocean said...

I didn't know "Twinswords" was so important - guess I was wrong. When, "Twinswords" speaks, Althouse Listens.

Who will you be blogging abut next, BJ Keefe?

rcocean said...

This Blog post has attracted several BHTV type commentators - and that's not a good thing.

rcocean said...

After all the Palin & Sex Blog posts, I thought Althouse was just about ratings.

I guess this one proves me wrong.

Lawler Walken said...

It's a compliment isn't it, albeit kind of a scary one, that there are people obsessing over you, trying to figure you out. You befuddle them so they parse every sentence seeking to decipher the hidden meaning.

I started reading your blog mostly for the non-political stuff, which is where I think you do your best writing, so I've missed the Kabbalah aspect to your political commentary.

jaltcoh said...

Before Obama was nominated: Destroy Hillary Clinton

Even assuming for the sake of argument that she was trying to "destroy Hillary Clinton," why characterize this as conservative? Why not characterize it as pro-Obama? She said she was voting for Obama in the Wisconsin primary, at 1:50 in this video.

By the way, in that video, she says, "I've nearly always voted for a Democrat." She's always voted for Democrats in the primaries, and she's voted for every Democratic nominee since McGovern except Carter (one of the two times he was the nominee) and Kerry. You'd need to ask her whether her reasons for voting for Republicans in those elections had more to do with a commitment to "conservatism" or specific defects with the Democratic nominees.

Can anyone seriously say that someone who voted for McGovern, Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Gore, and Obama is "deeply conservative"?

Seven Machos said...

Before 2008, I would have said that Althouse voted for the person she thought would make the best president. It's the Ford vote in 1980 that is most compelling.

Sadly, my theory went all to shit two years ago,

Ankur said...

Well, I am a long time lurker who has started commenting recently. While Althouse loves baiting liberals far more than she loves baiting conservatives for the same foibles, and while I disagree with her on MANY issues, I have never seen her as a hardcore conservative.

Being a liberal baiter and a conservative apologist...is VERY different from actually being conservative.

Seven Machos said...

Baiter. Apologist.

What other loaded terms do you have?

Ankur said...

...and, at the heart of it all, this blog is often entertaining, sometimes infuriating, and very occasionally, nauseating.

jaltcoh said...

It's the Ford vote in 1980 that is most compelling.

You mean 1976.

LonewackoDotCom said...

Where do they find these people?

Peter V. Bella: are you saying the 'partiers are as bad as the Dems? Or, did you just mean to use the tu quoque fallacy and failed miserably?

traditionalguy: the 'partiers are tools. They're pushing an agenda that hurts them and helps those who are using them. The latter camp includes those with the money (the Kochs, Armey's funders, etc.) and their frontpeople (Armey, AFP, etc.) A great example is Glenn Beck listeners donating to the U.S. Chamber, a group that supports mass/illegal immig., holds seminars promoting outsourcing, and basically has so little loyalty to the U.S. that one GOP Rep. (Sensenbrenner) suggested that they might want to register as a Registered Foreign Agent.

Seven Machos said...

I do mean 1976. Although a Ford vote in 1980 would have really said something, too.

Seven Machos said...

Wacko: please show us one solitary post where Althouse has said anything ever about immigration, your pet issue that nobody cares about.

Ankur said...

The "load" you feel in words is yours alone. Being a successful baiter is a rare skill. Lots of people think they are good at getting people's goats, but end up looking silly.

But one has to admire Ann's ability to annoy liberals. At the risk of waxing eloquent - its quite artistic. And it is more subtle than Limbaugh.

Ankur said...

..and I suspect, part of the reason she is good at it is because she's been there, done that, speaks the language.

Ankur said...

I also strongly believe that if people didn't take their partisan identifications so strongly, they'd be better able to laugh at themselves - a quality sadly lacking in political discourse today.

So, the ability to poke fun, rile people up by asking questions - is entertaining. The comment threads here would be good material for a sociology thesis.

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

Any time Person A purports to tell you what Person B is "really thinking", that tells you more about Person A than about Person B. It means one or more of the following:

* "Person B thinks this; and since Person B is Good, you should think the same."

* "Person B thinks this; and since Person B is Evil, you should think the opposite."

* "I can't argue with what Person B is saying; so instead, I'll tell you what Person B is thinking, so I can argue with that."

While it's true that Person B's written or spoken record may be dishonest, I assume that all self-appointed mind readers -- Twinswords included -- are liars until proven otherwise. If they can't prove their case with Person B's own words and actions, they can't prove their case.

BJM said...

Another suspicious thing about Althouse is that she doesn't have a dog, but she has a blender.

Eeeekkkk!!!11!!!!

Doug Wright said...

We very tolerant Conservatives like the "Althouse" blog in spite of AA voting for Obama and KF Kerry. She's witty, interesting, funny, knowledgable, and cute. Her support of the GB Packers can be forgiven.

Cheers.

traditionalguy said...

As a great Democrat President once said, Althouse just tells the truth about events in a tone perfect argument, and the liberals say that she is giving them hell. Yet they can't take their eyes off of her blog.

Daniel said...

Conservative isn't quite right. Certainly not on the key litmus issues. I would say that Ann's primary characteristic is contrariness. She's also extremely defensive -- she let's no slight go by, and is constitutionally incapable of admitting to being wrong (good to be a lawyer for that -- there are always loopholes).

The key is to add this together and look at the history. 2005-8 was not just a time when conservativism was unpopular (contrarianism), it was a time when liberals and liberal blogs were ascending, and were, to be frank, brutal to those who disagreed. Ann was contrarian, then defensive after criticism (never let a slight pass by), and in search of a welcoming online community. Not only that, but the conservative blogs, which were in defensive posture, were far more welcoming. They were much nicer to Ann, as she said at the time.

All of this combined caused Ann to drift into the company of conservatives (not to mention Instalanches -- Ann is a huge self promoter). The Tea Party is just more of the same mix of contrarian and going towards whoever is welcoming.

So the result is that Ann hangs out with conservatives, sympathizes with conservatives, defends conservatives. But I really don't think she's conservative.

Actually, I think she's a pretty straight up liberal, politically. The rest is personal -- like this blog.

My $0.02 pop psychology.

BJM said...

It's all too familiar...guilt by association, following banned proponents, critical thinking, self publishing and failure to blindly adhere to dogma...the left sees Althouse as a heretic.

The left's post-Reagan counter-reformation is coming to an end and the defenestration of Washington has begun.

1jpb said...

That dude is a serious Althouse student.

I can't think of any (non related) commenters here who have experienced Althouse in that many different forums, for that long. I know there are many commenters who have been around here for a very long time, but I don't know if they follow all the other Althouse formats. Maybe some do.

Anyway, after more than two and a half (sporadic) years (which makes me a yute, compared to many) the only thing I can say w/ metaphysical certitude is that Althouse is interesting to read. And, that's the point of it all, isn't it?

And, she doesn't ban tro...er...I mean confrontational/tedious commenters--unlike the other blogs where I've been expelled.

Jim B said...

My question is this: what handle is Twinswords using to comment here?

That much compulsive obsession over her, and he never comments? Highly unlikely.

Nope. Twinswords is among us. The only question is: is he brave enough to own up to what he had to say elsewhere?

Seven Machos said...

Do you think it's Twins Words or Twin Swords?

Twins Words would be a lot more interesting.

Alex said...

Ann is socially liberal, economically conservative and a hawk on national defense. What's new here? Did the lefties think Ann was one of THEM?

Alex said...

The problem so many leftists have is pretty much analogous to the one drop of blood thing racialists of the nineteenth century had. If you come down on the conservative side of an issue, even if you get there in a completely different way than the (nonexistent) mouth-breathing conservative hick would, you are 100 percent conservative.

This is brilliant. I couldn't have put it better. If you aren't fire-breathing lefty on 100% of the issues, you might as well be Rush Limbaugh to them.

Alex said...

garage is another one of those lefty purists.

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

To be fair, Alex, I know a lot of righty purists. A couple guys I know are pretty adamant that Rush Limbaugh isn't really a conservative. If Rush doesn't pass muster as a conservative, what chance do the rest of us have?

Seven Machos said...

Rush Limbaugh is a libertarian on his fourth or fifth marriage.

I can never figure out Alex, by the way. What's with the 30 percent of your posts, dude?

Alex said...

I sometimes forget to take my bipolar meds.

Ankur said...

I am socially liberal, yet I believe fiscal prudence, efficient and small government. As far as foreign policy is concerned, I believe a nation has to do what it needs to do to defend itself, even though I think the Iraq war was ill advised. Oh, did I also mention I was for gun rights and that it puzzles me why it is a left versus right issue at all?

Yet, it didn't take long for Althouse commentators to quickly label me liberal. So be it. You choose the labels, I shrug them off.

A lot of you here are purists, in my limited experience.

Revenant said...

I like the Althouse blog because it is impossible to know what her opinion will be, unless the topic is men with shorts.

Plus, the photographs are excellent.

Minzo said...

"I like the Althouse blog because it is impossible to know what her opinion will be"

Unless its about the tea party, Sarah Palin or Christine O'Donnel.

BJM said...

Apropos to the discussion; take The Politics Test and see where you fall politically.
(h/t to Ace)

Christy said...

Do y'all ever think that maybe Althouse's primary loyalty is to free speech, party be damned? And the comfort of commenters be damned. Althouse almost never ever deletes comments; I wish she would sometimes. Nothing more boring that watching trolls feed.

Since Kerry was swift-boated, Progressives have been so obviously despairingly disdainful of conservative free speech that I suspect Althouse can't resist responding. YMMV

Free speech, the leitmotif of the Althouse blog.

Minzo said...

"Do y'all ever think that maybe Althouse's primary loyalty is to free speech, party be damned?"

We are debating whether Althouse is 'deeply conservative' or not. What does the cause of free speech have to do with it exactly?
As for not caring about the 'comfort of her commenters' Im not sure thats true. Most of the comments on her blogs come from conservatives sympathetic to the tea party. Over the last few months, I get the feeling that she has been playing to the gallery.

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Chase said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chase said...

The problem is defining "conservatism"

Here is a devastating takedown of the typical liberal who seeks to equate conservatism with warmongering. The liberal/socialist has no accountability (of course not)for his failure to succinctly define what he means when he says "conservative".

"Liberal" and "socialist" are easy to define - they are not moving targets. Neither is "conservatism", though you would never know it from the lazy and self-righteous shit written all day long by monkey-see lemming liberals.

Chase said...

and self-righteous shit written all day long by monkey-see lemming liberals.

Oh, that's not all liberals, of course - but do include in that definition media writers for the New York Times and knee-jerk, no-discernable spine "journalists" such as Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann and their ilk.

tim maguire said...

People who don't fit neatly into a political category necessarily give ammunition to those intent on fitting them into a neat category--any category.

From your comment section, it seems most of your conservative readers consider you a lovable liberal and most of your liberal readers consider you a right-wing nut.

Can they both be right? They certainly can both be wrong.

edutcher said...

Like most thinking people, Ann is a mix of Conservative and Liberal positions; the Liberal stands seem to be mostly in the social area, Conservative in fiscal matters. Also, like a lot of people, she may be getting a bit more Conservative as she, well, watches the seasons pass.

Seven is right, however, about Lefty fanaticism about their orthodoxy. Any deviation and you are a traitor, witness Juan Williams.

In the end, I think Big Althouse Projects is largely a figment of the commenter's imagination. I'm guessing Ann voted for the Hopey-Changey centrist Obama of the primaries, not the redistributionist of the last two weeks of the campaign. She also was very clear McCain failed to make the sale as far as she was concerned,

The fact that Meade is a Tea Partier and she sees some of the points he makes (it's no sin except to the Left that she loves her husband to the point where they can discuss possible disagreements civilly) merely means she's being a good, reasonable wife in being willing to listen. And I don't recall her defending Miss Sarah to the point where she said, "Vote for her, she'd make a great Veep".

If she has the strength of character to say to herself, "I was had", and criticize Obama for it, good for her. It puts her above the delusionists who parrot the party line without reflection or critique.

edutcher said...

PS I like tim's "loveable liberal" tag.

After the election, it could be the new masthead.

Minzo said...

"If she has the strength of character to say to herself, "I was had", and criticize Obama for it, good for her. It puts her above the delusionists who parrot the party line without reflection or critique."

Agreed, but her criticisms of Obama are rarely in-depth or substantial. What she usually does is reprint his speeches- or put up a video- and make snarky remarks about him. As I've said before, we've got to the point where Andrew Sullivan is a more trenchant critic of the President than Ann.
And her sympathy for the tea party has now unfortunately began to cloud her judgement. The recent posts on the Rand paul incident (assuming it was a set up then basically blaming the victim and having hardly a word of criticism for the guy who stomped on the woman's head) is a good example of this.

Minzo said...

edutcher- good post by the way (although I disagree with you on most of the points you made)

AllenS said...

The Althouse Woman is a Liberal. What confuses some from the left, is when she throws us Hillbillies some red meat.

Fen said...

The recent posts on the Rand paul incident (assuming it was a set up

No. Try "not taking the video at face value because of Democrat history of staging crap like this"

then basically blaming the victim

The "victim" is a professional activists who deserved to be taken down and restrained for attacking Rand Paul twice.

and having hardly a word of criticism for the guy who stomped on the woman's head)

She did more than "a word of criticism". And he didn't "stomp" on anyone's "head"

is a good example of this.

is a good example that, like most Libtards, your observation skills suck and you don't comprehend what you read.

Fen said...

And "conservative" Althouse doesn't even have a link to Powerline in her blogroll.

Moose said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Moose said...

They forgot the "eliminate men in shorts" project. Very evil...

Pogo said...

I have been posting here since, I dunno, 2005 (much to the pain of Althouse readers).

She sensed similar arguments about her even then. This post from April '05 was along the same lines.

Althouse wrote then: "And what are we to think of people who not only disagree with you but stop being your friend after you say you think Mozart is better than gamelan music?"

and

"I'm not deeply troubled by it personally -- even considering what a social liability it is here in Madison. I just don't like polarized politics, also I don't like something so inaccurate -- it tends to then make people think I have other opinions that I don't have."

She's not easily pegged, so to liberals she's an apostate, or -worse- 'she has been one of them! all along'. She's not changed as far as I can tell.




I've become somewhat of a prick, however.

Minzo said...

"is a good example that, like most Libtards, your observation skills suck and you don't comprehend what you read."

Ooh nice. Lets see Generalization? Check. Ad hominem attack? Of course. Misrepresentation of the facts? Absolutely.
And presumably you are one of those who will later preach that Liberals have no civility and don't tolerate dissenting opinions.

traditionalguy said...

From a trial lawyers perspective, Althouse is like a fair judge who seldom steps in but lets the two opposing lawyers argue whatever wild theory of the case they hope the jury will believe. The rare occasion when she steps in is when the evidence is irrelevant and hearsay (like liberal talking points usually are).Usually she gives a reasoned charge to the jury and includes possible verdict forms. It is her cruel neutrality that galls the liberals who insist that juries only be allowed to hear their assertions...and NEVER hear opposing arguments. Also she will jump all over counsel who show contempt for the Judge. Thank you your Honor.

Hagar said...

Althouse is a conservative because she is not a Kossack nor a RINO.

ndspinelli said...

The Althouse Project sounds like an Oliver Stone movie teatise.

Minzo said...

"It is her cruel neutrality that galls the liberals who insist that juries only be allowed to hear their assertions...and NEVER hear opposing arguments."

I don't understand where that is coming from. If mere criticism of liberals was the problem, they would have deserted the likes of Jon Stewart in droves. The intolerant liberal' meme has no basis in reality.
If she seemed genuinely neutral or at least attacked both sides it wouldnt be a problem for me (And I think many other liberals) I have no desire to merely read things I agree with. But Im amazed how anyone can read her posts from the last few months and come to your conclusion. Her hilarious over-the-top outrage about O'Donnel getting booed, her constant protectiveness of Sarah Palin (and the tea party in general) and her recent Rand Paul posts all indicate that she's leaning one way.

rhhardin said...

I try to be easy to figure out.

Crimso said...

"This commenter, one "Twinswords," insists that my "conservatism is irrefutable":"

Won't believe it until I see it proved by a computer model.

Roger J. said...

Seems to me labels like "liberal" and "conservative" are not much unless modified by such terms as "burkean" or "classical." And even then they are limited in their descriptive ability.

HDHouse said...

Seven Machos said...
"If you come down on the conservative side of an issue, even if you get there in a completely different way than the (nonexistent) mouth-breathing conservative hick would, you are 100 percent conservative."

good point seven.

no one is actually 100% dumb or without a shred of common sense - try as some might.

I do believe that Ann has veered a bit to the right in her comments and that the "red meat" tossed to the majority of her readership now comes to them partially chewed but that is for her and for them to swallow.

All I know that the game is plentiful and the hunting has never been better or easier from the left's point of view.


.....speaking of easy hunting - take Mr. Cheney....

Dave said...

Ann,

You're so much more interesting and surprising as a blogger because you're not lockstep left or right. As a result your commenters are also diverse compared with most blogs I read. I'd say you're conservative with respect to the typical Law professor but a moderate with respect to the US population. The difficulty in placing you is really a reflection on the inadequacy of a single left right metric to define politics.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I always pictured the Professor as a Truman/JFK styled 'liberal democrat'.

If she's considered a conservative, then I'd say that's a pretty damning indictment of how far left today's liberals have become.

shoutingthomas said...

Her hilarious over-the-top outrage about O'Donnel getting booed, her constant protectiveness of Sarah Palin (and the tea party in general) and her recent Rand Paul posts all indicate that she's leaning one way.

Well, I can only offer an analogy.

I was more than a little upset about the financial profligacy of the Bush administration. And, I thought that the bailouts were an atrocity.

But, the vicious attacks on Bush by the left were disgusting and I hated them. The assassination fantasies, the stupid agitprop, the charges that he is a war criminal...

Likewise, the attacks on Palin are pathological and offensive.

I'm not looking to any politician for salvation.

But, the viciousness of the left has become very disturbing. And the left's fucking idiot habit of accusing anybody who disagrees with them of being stupid... it's about time for people to respond with a punch in the nose to that shit.

shoutingthomas said...

And, of course, I'll conceed in advance to blockheads like Omega, Shitmo, HenHouse and the others that, since I've deviated from the gospel...

I'm a crazy wingnut.

Comrade X said...

so what they're saying is that conservatives have a much bigger tent and are more tolerant of differing views.

master cylinder said...

Ann, you disavowed your Obama vote very quickly,
too quickly. It appears you did not want to stick around and see if it might work. I know you point to that vote and so do all your commenters, but I have seen very, very little support for what he has done in office. Maybe that's why some people think you have "conservative projects". I think you play to your audience here, and they come for the liberal bashing.
That's why I'm here. [I go other places to read things with which I agree.] You have been utterly reliable in picking up the rightwing outrage de jour.
And I do mean de jour, everyday you pick up the ball and run with the latest...ODonnell, Williams, Tea Party is not racist, Tea Party is not stupid,
Michelle O is not beautiful, Rush was right, all media are liberal, yadda yadda yadda.
You can smother that with fancy descriptions, nuance, cruel neutrality, contrarian whatever, but your fans are here for the liberal take down and you know that.

Fred4Pres said...

You must have loved how that commentator described you as a brilliant legal mind and political Machiavelli.

I know you voted for Obama, but Kerry? That kind of undercuts everthing doesn't it?

MadisonMan said...

Why is contrarianism a deeply conservative trait?

My two cents : With Bush, it seemed like Althouse was not enamored of many of his policies, but found a couple she could support and did so vocally. With Obama, she is not enamored of many of his policies, but has not found any that she likes and supports vocally, but rather harps on the disappointments.

shoutingthomas said...

ComradeX, you don't read very well...

You said:

so what they're saying is that conservatives have a much bigger tent and are more tolerant of differing views.

I already acknowledge that morons like you would respond thus:

so what they're saying is that conservatives have a much bigger tent and are more tolerant of differing views.

You would think that you might avoid proving me right, but no...

I expected it. In fact, I predicted it.

t-man said...

For me, the key to all of this is the last word in the first comment, by Bob -- individual.

MadisonMan said...

But you'll notice I don't link to any Althouse posts in my analysis. It's just my vague interpretation of how I recall the ebb and flow of althouse comments -- which are very few -- and topics that she chooses to put on the front page of her blog.

It's all about generating traffic.

AJ Lynch said...

Althouse annoys liberals because she, a law prof, is not a doctrinaire liberal. She does not play by their rule that the political end justifies the means. But she is still mostly liberal IMO.

shoutingthomas said...

Let me tell you how I view Althouse's politics:

She's relentlessly self-interested.

This is not a bad thing. I approved of politics as self-interest.

So, she's a feminist because that quota system delivers the goods for her. Her feminism has softened because she's married now, and her self-interest includes the self-interest of a man.

She's developed an estate, so taxation as confiscation no longer appeals to her. Thus, her views on government have shifted because she wants the government to take its hand out of her pocket.

I understand that her son is gay, so the gay marriage thing also appeals to her self-interest. Why this is so, I don't know, because I also have a homosexual daughter, and that has not led me to embrace the gay activist agenda. In fact, I have a number of gay friends who are actively hostile to the gay activist agenda.

The only bitch I have against Ann's politics is that she is hostile to my self-interest. That's her feminism. She's in favor of a quota system that delivers the goods to her and punishes me. She thinks there is some justification for this, although in fact she grew up in better circumstances than I did.

Politics isn't abstract. It's self-interest.

traditionalguy said...

Minzo...Add in Althouse's insistence that women be treated like they are people too, and re-analyze your last comment. The over the top attacks on O'Donnell and on Palin for being intelligent and popular personalities was a part of the Judge's role to step in when irrelevant evidence is offered. She does the same for Hillary. That seems like taking sides only because the Dems are stuck with a Black Man candidate that only beats White Men candidates , but find that White Women candidates beat their guy. Curses, foiled again. But Althouse did not set up this rock/paper/scissors situation liberals find themselves stuck in.

AllenS said...

master cylinder said...
Ann, you disavowed your Obama vote very quickly,
too quickly. It appears you did not want to stick around and see if it might work.


Well, in all fairness, it's been almost 2 years, and I don't know anybody who wants to wait any longer to see if Obama's policies are going to work, when everything seems to be going to hell so far.

SMGalbraith said...

For many ideologues on either side, if you're not a liberal you must be a conservative, deeply or otherwise. And, yes, if you're not conservative, you're a liberal.

Anyway, it is interesting that if you voted for Obama but are now critical about him from a center-right view that you're subject to all sorts of amateur psychoanalysis or character study.

If you're critical of him from the left, no such scrutiny follows.

Henry said...

She was BhTV's go-to-'head for Palin defense for about a year straight.

That says more about BhTV than Althouse.

Here's a few more big Althouse Projects that demand attention:

-- Since about forever: Promote gay rights, gay marriage and an end to DADT (marriage and the military -- a conservative twofer)

-- Since about forever: Promote fashion and art in the guise of critiquing it (who can afford fashion and art but the rich?)

-- Since about August 2009: Odd obsession with grass and shrubbery (so she's a farmer now?)

traditionalguy said...

Henry...LOL!

shoutingthomas said...

So, now that I've identified Ann's politics correctly as the politics of self-interest, let me say that that does, in fact, make her a conservative.

Once you acknowledge that you embrace the politics of self-interest, you do become a conservative, because you are assessing issues on a case by case basis as they affect you and your family.

The liberal ruse is that politics should be defined by abstract notions of societal good and progress. This is, in fact, a trick... a way of concealing that liberal's are actually pursuing their own self-interesting, while they pretend otherwise.

Thus, liberals now believe that opposing quotas is racism and sexism. Why? Because quotas advance the self interest of liberals.

bagoh20 said...

Ann has mostly conservative commenters, and they accept her liberal votes and views as simple disagreements and not some kind of scarlet letter or disease.

Is there a blog dominated by liberals where the host openly admits voting for Bush or McCain or takes any conservative positions?

master cylinder said...

Allen, it was July of 2009 when she posted about how her vote was a mistake. I remember!

Shanna said...

Her hilarious over-the-top outrage about O'Donnel getting booed, her constant protectiveness of Sarah Palin (and the tea party in general) and her recent Rand Paul posts all indicate that she's leaning one way.

I think the Sarah Palin/Christine O’Donnell comments have more to do with feminism than conservatism.

master cylinder said...

bagoh-Sullivan

bagoh20 said...

One big difference between liberals and conservatives is that although they agree on a lot of what they want for themselves, they disagree about how others should be, and who should decide it.

AllenS said...

Link please. I don't trust your memory, cylinder.

bagoh20 said...

I guess Sullivan is one. It is a similar political dynamic, but man, I could not do Sullivan every day. There is no joy, but I'm not there very often, so maybe I missed his flower photos.

It would be beautiful to see Sullivan get hitched on a mountain in Colorado.

Minzo said...

"But, the viciousness of the left has become very disturbing. And the left's fucking idiot habit of accusing anybody who disagrees with them of being stupid... it's about time for people to respond with a punch in the nose to that shit."

But what makes you think the left's viciousness is any worse or more prevalent than those of the right? It is pretty hard to quantify that without letting prejudice and confirmation bias take control (And that applies to me as well as you)

"I think the Sarah Palin/Christine O’Donnell comments have more to do with feminism than conservatism."

Fair point.

"Thus, liberals now believe that opposing quotas is racism and sexism."

I think you'll find liberals are in no way united on this subject.

"Minzo...Add in Althouse's insistence that women be treated like they are people too, and re-analyze your last comment. The over the top attacks on O'Donnell and on Palin for being intelligent and popular personalities.."

You think the only reason Palin and O'Donnel were attacked is because they were smart? Sure you can't think of anything else? I agree that there were a few sexist remarks directed at them (just as with most high-profile female politicians) but the idea that its their intelligence that turns people against them is absurd.

master cylinder said...

Allen, I wrote something about it on July 21st 2009-gotta work now but Ill find it!

Marshal said...

"Seven Machos said...
The problem so many leftists have is pretty much analogous to the one drop of blood thing racialists of the nineteenth century had. If you come down on the conservative side of an issue, even if you get there in a completely different way than the (nonexistent) mouth-breathing conservative hick would, you are 100 percent conservative."
____________

I think this is not quite right. People who push this conclusion tend to base it solely on who disagrees with their preferences, while ignoring the critics preferred positions. Because they tend to focus on subjects defending the hard left or attacking the right it is natural for moderate liberals or centrists to disagree with most of their public statements. Many exacerbate this analytical weakness by believing they are moderate themselves.

I further think the long supported principle of "no enemies to the left" encourages this error. The hard left is simply not used to being questioned by anyone who isn't a conservative. The left's dominance of their own (academia) and public institutions means many do not have a realistic view of the political spectrum. So those on the moderate left or center who criticize the left seem to be widely misidentified on a regular basis. The same is true of people who generally agree left but think their positions are strong enough they don't need to rest on lies or malicious attacks.

McArdle immediately jumps to mind as another person who supports moderate left policies, but her unwillingness to agree with the hard left's assertions (ObamaCare will decrease total health spending while not sacrificing quality or innovation) routinely gets her branded as "on the right" even though her policy preferences are clearly left of center.

It's likely this effect occurs on the right as well. My observation that this occurs on the left could be a function of what I read. I wonder when I read criticisms of David Frum for example, but I don't read him close enough to know whether this description would be accurate and if so to the same degree.

bagoh20 said...

"You think the only reason Palin and O'Donnel were attacked is because they were smart?"

Nobody gets attacked for being smart. It's their views, of course. So why the over the top misogyny? They are not the most conservative opinions out there - not even the most conservative women. What is different about them?

Trooper York said...

For his 200 episode, the producers of "This Old House" gave Bob Villa a full tool box of all of the usual items such as hammers, screw drivers and wrenchs. The only thing was that they were all gold plated.

The only bigger set of pretentious tools can be found in the comment section of Boringheads.

Trooper York said...

Except for rcocean and rhhardin of course.

shoutingthomas said...

So, I've explained Althouse's politics as defined entirely by self-interest.

Too boring to answer, right?

But, that is the reality.

She's 60 years old. She's got a man. Her son is gay. The quota system rewards her for being a white female. She makes good money and she's got an estate.

Self-interest explains all her political stances.

I approve of politics as self-interest.

My only bitch. Ann, quit trying to explain away my self-interest as a form of prejudice... i.e., your jeremiads against "sexism."

Of course, trying to undermine your opponents is another aspect of self-interest, isn't it?

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

Anybody that would kill a baby as quick as the blogger lady is no real conservative. Just sayn'

Trooper York said...

I just hope that Brendan doesn't show up.

He makes Ritmo look like Calvin Coolidge.

Comrade X said...

shouting thomas, because I don't read real good, I couldn't find where you predicted my comment word for word.

and could you translate the rest of that comment directed at me? I don't think you readed or comprehended my comment real good either.

shoutingthomas said...

Comment amended:

ComradeX, you don't read very well...

You said:

so what they're saying is that conservatives have a much bigger tent and are more tolerant of differing views.

I already acknowledge that morons like you would respond thus:

And, of course, I'll conceed in advance to blockheads like Omega, Shitmo, HenHouse and the others that, since I've deviated from the gospel...

I'm a crazy wingnut.

You would think that you might avoid proving me right, but no...

I expected it. In fact, I predicted it.

Michael said...

How can you possibly sit in the liberal marinade of a big university and not have the taste of a liberal even if your core might be serious?

edutcher said...

Minzo, no problem, we can agree to disagree, although I think you're wrong about Leftist civility. Anyone who's had the comment boards of Puffington or Kos inflicted on them sees a level of fanaticism you don't see in the Conservative blogs (I'm thinking not only here but Little Green Footballs (before it got weird), Hot Air, Gateway Pundit, Ace).

Hagar said...

Althouse is a conservative because she is not a Kossack nor a RINO.

Because she's not a Kossack doesn't exclude her from being a Liberal, and certainly doesn't make her Bill Buckley's daughter.

Hoosier Daddy said...

....but the idea that its their intelligence that turns people against them is absurd.

Well I have never heard a single person who dislikes Palin actually describe a policy issue they have, just that she's stooopid! I mean if her level of intellect is the measuring stick then to have any shred of consistency it should be applied to Joe Plagirsit Biden, the guy who thinks FDR was on TV or Obama who thinks Austrian is a language or...well I think you get my drift.

I can easily back up my dislike of Obama by succinctly laying out my policy differences. It would be nice if liberals had the maturity to do the same.

traditionalguy said...

Minzo...I stick with my opinion that it is intelligence that turns liberals and some libertarians against O'Donnell and Palin. You want to see genius IQ levels or else; but Social Intelligence is a huge factor in communicating effectively and governing in today's information age on U-tube steroids.

Comrade X said...

shoutingthomas I still don't think you understand my comment that wasn't directed at you. You do know you're supposed to call your doctor if the erection lasts more than 4 hours, right?

shoutingthomas said...

shoutingthomas I still don't think you understand my comment that wasn't directed at you. You do know you're supposed to call your doctor if the erection lasts more than 4 hours, right?

How many milligrams do you take?

Hoosier Daddy said...

You want to see genius IQ levels or else;

Genius is great for inventing the lightbulb, flight or time travel but when it comes to effective governing, give me someone with an average GPA, common sense that knows how to balance a checkbook. The 'smartest people in the world' have been pulling the levers of power for some time now and a fat lot of good its done.

Comrade X said...

OK shouty, I'll concede that my saying conservatives have a big tent equals saying you're a wingnut, in your brainpan.

Trooper York said...

Conservatives often have a big tent in their pants. Just sayn'

shoutingthomas said...

My brainpan has been somewhat modified by years of experimentation with foreign substances when I was young and impressionable.

former law student said...

Why would people think Althouse is conservative?

The root cause is that the professor is contrarian, I agree. The problem is that -- whatever her own political leanings may be -- the professor is highly critical/skeptical of everyone and everything to the left of Colin Powell, while virtually everything to the right of the General gets a free pass from her.

Plus she can listen to Rush Limbaugh without gagging. For the majority of non-conservatives, listening to Rush is as pleasurable as undergoing the bastinado.

Once you acknowledge that you embrace the politics of self-interest, you do become a conservative, because you are assessing issues on a case by case basis as they affect you and your family.

The vast majority of conservatives embrace the politics of someone else's self-interest -- that of the 97th percentile of income and/or wealth in this country.

Minzo said...

"but Social Intelligence is a huge factor in communicating effectively"

I think we were talking about different types of intelligence then. I certainly wouldn't argue that Palin doesn't have high levels of social intelligence. I'm not sure quite how much we should be prioritizing that though.

"Well I have never heard a single person who dislikes Palin actually describe a policy issue they have, just that she's stooopid!"

Well candidates intellect-or lack of it- is obviously a vital factor for politicians and Palin came across as, shall we say, ill-informed in her interviews. Much the same way that many conservatives saw Obama as an 'empty suit' who could only read from a teleprompter but was otherwise dumb and offering only talking points.

"I mean if her level of intellect is the measuring stick then to have any shred of consistency it should be applied to Joe Plagirsit Biden"

I don't think you need me to tell you both sides are guilty of hypocrisy. We exaggerate and relentlessly focus on a candidate's stupidity if they are on the other side but don't pick up on it or rationalize it if the candidate is on our side. Biden's gaffes would probably not be such a big deal if he was a republican.

Trooper York said...

"Biden's gaffes would probably not be such a big deal if he was a republican."

Wow. I guess you are too young to remember Dan Quayle.

Comrade X said...

The vast majority of conservatives embrace the politics of someone else's self-interest -- that of the 97th percentile of income and/or wealth in this country.

why is Kansas so fucking stupid?

and why are liberals so fucking altruistic?

so many people voting against their own self interest.

Daniel said...

Well I have never heard a single person who dislikes Palin actually describe a policy issue they have, just that she's stooopid!...

I can easily back up my dislike of Obama by succinctly laying out my policy differences. It would be nice if liberals had the maturity to do the same


Drill baby drill
Pro life
Death panels
Support the troops
Endorse candidates
Quit policy job
Tweet

Not exactly fertile ground for a policy debate.

shoutingthomas said...

The vast majority of conservatives embrace the politics of someone else's self-interest -- that of the 97th percentile of income and/or wealth in this country.

You're pretty confused.

I've worked for wealthy corporations and universities my entire life. When that 97th percentile, my bosses, make more money, they pay me more. I approve of this heartily.

Drill baby drill
Pro life
Death panels
Support the troops
Endorse candidates
Quit policy job
Tweet

I thought you were trying to prove Palin's stupid.

Let see: Drill baby drill. Absolutely correct. Only a moron would oppose this.

Death panel: shaped the debate and made Obamacare the object of ridicule.

Support the troops: Correct.

Endorse candidates: Highly successful here.

Quit policy job: Turned her own status into a multi-million dollar book deal and equally profitable deal with Fox.

Tweet: Takes over public debate with a few words.

Are you sure you are opposed to Palin. You sound like her publicist.

bagoh20 said...

"Biden's gaffes would probably not be such a big deal if he was a republican. "

They certainly would be to the liberals if he was GOP.

Palin's, and O'Donnel's missteps we're pretty widely panned on the right by many, yet many still like them over their opponents. Biden, who's gaffs are endless and almost daily, are rarely mentioned on the left.

Palin or O'Donnel makes one and it's news for two days. Neither lady is an elected official and Joe is the Vice-President. Seems a little slanted to me.

former law student said...

Biden's gaffes would probably not be such a big deal if he was a republican.

Reagan made enough gaffes, misstatements, and outright falsehoods to fill a book Ronald Reagan's Reign of Error. He still got reelected.

GW Bush's gaffes can be split up into headscratchers, truisms, and spoonerisms. He got reelected, too.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"- January 11, 2000

"And there's no doubt in my mind, not one doubt in my mind, that we will fail."- October 4, 2001

"[Waves hello]" to blind musician Stevie Wonder

"If this was a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."- December 18, 2002

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."

"Well, I think if you say you're going to do something and don't do it, that's trustworthiness."

"And so, in my State of the- State of the Union- or state- my speech--- whatever you want to call it, I asked Americans to give 4,000 years--- 4,000 years over the next--- the rest of your life- of service to America."- April 9, 2002

"The thing that's most important for me is to remember what's the most important thing."- February 20, 2001

"The reason I believe in a large tax cut is because it's what I believe."- Dec. 18, 2000

"Teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."- Feb. 21, 2001

"If the terriers and bariffs are town down, the economy will grow."- January 7, 2000

"They misunderestimated me"- November 6, 2000

Pogo said...

'Biden's gaffes'

I did'nt know Biden wore a gaffe, much less that he had more than one.
NTTAWWT.

Alex said...

Plus she can listen to Rush Limbaugh without gagging. For the majority of non-conservatives, listening to Rush is as pleasurable as undergoing the bastinado..

I can't listen to Ed Schultz without gagging. So there.

shoutingthomas said...

Well, yeah, fls, Bush was prone to some Yogi Berra-ism.

On the other hand, Obama claims he barely knew Bill Ayers and Rev. Wright.

Comrade X said...

Thats the way baseball go

Ron Washington 2010

Marshal said...

"The vast majority of conservatives embrace the politics of someone else's self-interest --"

I agree. Isn't it wonderful? Your mypic focus on benefits is wrong. But conservatives aren't in politics to take from their neighbors like so many liberals and leftists are.

Trooper York said...

My only question about Boringheads is does Bob Wright still hear from Kelsey Grammer?

former law student said...

When that 97th percentile, my bosses, make more money, they pay me more.

Are you saying your bosses flip you bigger tips when they get to keep more of their income? Because we're talking about their personal wealth and income, not corporate profits.

When liberals vote in their own self-interest, the 97th percentile labels it "class warfare."

Trooper York said...

And what happened to that Bela Lugosi chick. They had a nice little what for a couple of months ago. She seemed nice for a dimwitted liberal. Just sayn'

Pogo said...

For Democrats, it must be galling to discover that the guy they knew was so very much smarter than Bush turned out to have failed so very very badly.

Republicans, conservatives, and libertarians are still unsure whether McCain would have been a whole hell of a lot different, however.

Tweedledee and Tweedledum: Democratic socialism vs. RINO socialism.

Minzo said...

"I did'nt know Biden wore a gaffe, much less that he had more than one.
NTTAWWT."

Your focus on the issue at hand is admirable. Your insights are much appreciated.

Pogo said...

Thx! I consider it a challenge to do so.

Alex said...

Minzo - your focus is admirable as well. Whenever anyone criticizes a Democrat or points out their flaws and evils, you shift it back to conservatives. I have to admire such insane dedication. Alinsky would be proud.

Alex said...

Biden hails government as the solution

But that's just part of the socialist religion. Lie, lie, lie about capitalism and hope enough dumb idiots buy it.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Drill baby drill
Pro life
Death panels
Support the troops
Endorse candidates
Quit policy job
Tweet

Not exactly fertile ground for a policy debate.


So if I glean actual policy issues from that list I can assume you dislike Palin because she supports more domestic oil exploration and drilling, chose to give birth to her children rather than abort them, and supports the troops rather than not. The other items aren't policy issues.

Care to try again or is that all you have?

Daniel said...

I never said Palin was stupid. Her intelligence, however, is not in policy, obviating the need for a policy debate.

Let see: Drill baby drill. Absolutely correct. Only a moron would oppose this.

BP.

Death panel: shaped the debate and made Obamacare the object of ridicule.

Politically powerful. Policy empty.

Support the troops: Correct.

Empty phrase.

Endorse candidates: Highly successful here.

Completely empty from a policy perspective.

Quit policy job: Turned her own status into a multi-million dollar book deal and equally profitable deal with Fox.

Completely empty from a policy perspective.

Tweet: Takes over public debate with a few words.

Completely empty from a policy perspective.

Palin's clearly powerful. Clearly intelligent. She's just totally absent on policy, except for some boilerplate (and boring) stuff. Obama's a wonk. I'd hash it out with Heritage or Cato any day.

When that 97th percentile, my bosses, make more money, they pay me more. I approve of this heartily.

10 years of stagnant wage growth for the bottom 97%, coupled with huge gains for the top 3% and significant GDP growth, is apparently not long enough to put some doubt in your faith.

former law student said...

the guy they knew was so very much smarter than Bush turned out to have failed so very very badly.

We'll get Bin Laden someday. Meanwhile the economy is back from the precipice, no one will lack health care, we've turned Iraq over to the Iraqis, we've unwound Bush's extra-legal detention and prosecution of alleged terrorists, etc. etc.

Comrade X said...

Republicans, conservatives, and libertarians are still unsure whether McCain would have been a whole hell of a lot different, however.

ain't it the truth. the liberals probably would have gotten more of their crappy agenda through with McCain and wouldn't be facing a teabagging because they'd have bipartisan cover.

Marshal said...

"Obama's a wonk."

Untrue. If he was a wonk he wouldn't have allowed Nancy Pelosi's staff to write ObamaCare. He knows very little policy and is more guilty than Palin of speaking in meaningless platitudes.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Are you saying your bosses flip you bigger tips when they get to keep more of their income? Because we're talking about their personal wealth and income, not corporate profits.

Conservatives tend to believe that individuals spending their earnings is better for the economy than the government confiscating more of it.

As for corporate profits, yes, typically higher profit earnings result in, dare I say, trickle down in terms of higher merit raises and bonuses or profit sharing. If profits decrease as a result of economic downturn or increased taxes, that tends to reflect in decreased merit raises/bonuses. At least that's how I have seen it practiced in reality. On Planet X it may be different.

Hoosier Daddy said...

We'll get Bin Laden someday.

Don't tell me Obama is going to hold a seance.

Daniel said...

For Democrats, it must be galling to discover that the guy they knew was so very much smarter than Bush turned out to have failed so very very badly.

Given the hand he was dealt, I think he's succeeded incredibly. Avoiding a full on economic collapse, health care, education policy, some progress on financial reform, the stimulus. I'm also disappointed about some stuff -- escalating in Afghanistan most of all. All told, given how thoroughly George Bush destroyed our balance sheet, economic foundations, military capacity and global reputation, I think Obama's done extremely well. And very close to half of America agrees with me (FAR more, incidentally, than the support for Democrats, Republicans, Congress, or the truly hated Sarah Palin).

Pogo said...

"We'll get Bin Laden someday."
Hilarious. I thought Obama wouldn't rest until ...etc.?
Tomorrow, right? He'll get Bin Laden tomorrow.

"Meanwhile the economy is back from the precipice,"
As 60 Minutes(!) reported last week, the real US unemployment rate is 17%, and in California it's 22%.
So, yeah, the Democrats did a great job. Fabulous.

"no one will lack health care,"
That explains the deep love the elderly have for Obamacare.

"we've turned Iraq over to the Iraqis"
Thank you, George Bush.

shoutingthomas said...

Let see: Drill baby drill. Absolutely correct. Only a moron would oppose this.

BP.

The BP oil spill was entirely the fault of federal environmental policy.

BP didn't want to drill at such incredible depths. It's original precis for drilling was close to shore and shallow.

Federal environmental policy, implemented I believe by the Obama administration, pushed BP out into deep water far away from shore.

The BP oil spill was manufactured by federal policy.

I prefer Palin's savvy in the private market as a reference for serving in the public arena. She knows how to make a buck. That's good.

She's making her voice heard. That's good.

You're opinions about what is empty speech are different from mine. Support the troops is precisely what needs to be said.

Pogo said...

"And very close to half of America agrees with me"

Let's see how you explain that to me on 11/3/10.

I'm willing to wait for that poll.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Obama's a wonk.

Really? Maybe my definition of wonk is dated but Hope and Change and Yes We Can which is pretty much all I have heard from him in 2 years doesn't sound wonkish to me.

In fact I'd say its pretty boilerplate and boring.

shoutingthomas said...

Avoiding a full on economic collapse, health care, education policy, some progress on financial reform, the stimulus.

You've just enumerated the failures of the Obama administration that will lead to a Republican rout next week.

The economic collapse was a bi-partisan affair, created by several successive administrations that (1) put a gun to the heads of banks and forced lending to un-creditworthy borrowers, and (2) indemnified banks against the losses those policies would cause.

Not surprisingly, this led to massive corruption.

This is not a defense of Bush, who favored the subprime lending and the indemnification of lenders. Obama was also in favor of the subprime lending and indemnification of lenders. In fact, his career of working with ACORN was premised on this.

Both parties did their share to sabotage the economy.

Ann Althouse said...

Why do people keep saying I voted for Kerry?!

I voted for Bush in 2004, blogged through it, and lived through living in Madison ever since as a person who voted for Bush. Give me some credit, please. I've taken the consequences.

I voted for Gore in 2000.

Ann Althouse said...

"How Kerry lost me."

Hoosier Daddy said...

Let see: Drill baby drill. Absolutely correct. Only a moron would oppose this.

BP.


Well I for one am heartened that man made disasters haven't prevented forward civilizational progress. I'm sure at some point in human history after the discovery of fire some moronic fool burnt down whole swaths of forest while grilling his mastodon dinner but they recovered and we moved on.

Pogo said...

'How Barry lost me.'

Coming soon?
(Actually, I doubt it. Despite the grave damage done to the US, I completely see how he'd get re-elected.)

Shanna said...

You have been utterly reliable in picking up the rightwing outrage de jour.
And I do mean de jour, everyday you pick up the ball and run with the latest...ODonnell, Williams, Tea Party is not racist


So simply explaning that an entire movement of people who are primarily concerned about spending is not racist qualifies as rightwing outrage? That’s really one you want to go with?

Daniel said...

Support the troops is precisely what needs to be said.

When everyone says something, it's meaningless. What's she done?

I'm not getting into a BP conversation -- it's clearly pointless.

I prefer Palin's savvy in the private market as a reference for serving in the public arena. She knows how to make a buck. That's good.

She's making her voice heard. That's good.


This is just a long way of saying empty on policy.

Daniel said...

Let's see how you explain that to me on 11/3/10.

You're right -- not one single person in this entire country will vote for Obama on 11/3/2010.

Pogo said...

Heckfire, Daniel, even Obama says this election is a referendum on his policies.

deborah said...

"I try to be easy to figure out."

Mission accomplished.

shoutingthomas said...

This is just a long way of saying empty on policy.

No, it isn't.

You're making the classic liberal mistake, which is that people should have a grand plan.

I don't want candidates for public office to have a grand plan.

I want them to react on a piecemeal basis to every issue they confront, and do as little as necessary.

You want plans. That's because you're a liberal.

I know it's almost impossible for you to get your mind around this, but try.

Palin is a better candidate because she's just reacting to life and crafting solutions one at a time.

Try real hard to understand this. You can do it.

Tertium Quid said...

Russell Kirk wrote "The Conservative Mind: From Burke to Eliot." He helped establish "The National Review" and founded "Modern Age." His writings are distributed by the Heritage Foundation and the Intercollegiate Studies Institute.

Kirk voted for Norman Thomas in '44, Barry Goldwater in '64, Eugene McCarthy in '76, and Ronald Reagan in '80 and '84. He also said that it's not part of the conservative cause to sell the national forests for private development.

Being conservative is not an "ism" but a way viewing the world and seeking justice.

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

Hoosier Daddy said...

Really? Maybe my definition of wonk is dated but Hope and Change and Yes We Can which is pretty much all I have heard from him in 2 years doesn't sound wonkish to me.

You forgot "car in the ditch", "Slurpee", and "Bush did it!"

Soaring rhetoric there. Soaring!

From dictionary.com:

wonk   
–noun Slang

1. a student who spends much time studying and has little or no social life; grind.

2. a stupid, boring, or unattractive person.

3. a person who studies a subject or issue in an excessively assiduous and thorough manner: a policy wonk.


From there, the snark practically writes itself...

Sofa King said...

Why is contrarianism a deeply conservative trait?

This is perhaps the one interesting question in this thread. I don't think it necessarily is, but it certainly seems to have become so. I would suppose that there are several driving forces, almost all of them reactionary:

1. A reaction to over-the-top political correctness and nanny-statism, almost all of them championed by "liberal" social engineers. Contrariness is an effective tactic to counter social engineering, in general.

2. A reaction to appeals to authority, esp. the authority of "experts" and "scientists" that occurs largely on the liberal side.

3. Not as reactionary, an affirmation of the primacy of the individual's rights, contra the convenience of "society." C.f.:

"You see, according to Cocteau's plan, I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy who likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, 'Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?' I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal?"

bagoh20 said...

"Given the hand he was dealt, I think he's succeeded incredibly. Avoiding a full on economic collapse..."


Also no serious hurricanes, terror attacks or zombie outbreaks. And don't forget that Obama did stop the seas from rising - promised and delivered. So there.

His accomplishments are infinite if you look at it right.

traditionalguy said...

Minzo...Since we are really talking of a war time leader's intelligence, I will quote Patton to you, "never take counsel of your fears...or yor fears will make the decisions for you". Everyone needs to let go of fears of slander for supporting a stupid outback woman. That IS Rove's trick. He does not care anything about winning the 2012 election since his plans are to lose it. Rove is focusing like a lazer on keeping the GOP nomination from Palin, much like King Leonidas did with 300 men at the Hotgates. The battle at the GOP Hotgates guarding the nomination is over the insider GOP movers and shakers that Rove is working everyday trying to make them feel ashamed of supporting a stupid outback woman. So think for yourself, Minzo. The trial lawyer wins or loses a case in the opening statement, because of the power of suggestion by the first story told and believed. That idea planted in the jurior's minds seldom allows them to see the contradictory facts put into evidence later on...we call that mind control. Watch Rove in action quickly planting Palin shame stories as fast as he planted those 3 lies to shame supporters of O'Donnell within 45 seconds after she was declared winner over Casttle. Use your own mind and refuse it to Rove, the Bush family's Consiglieri.

Daniel said...

Try real hard to understand this. You can do it.

I'm trying. I'm trying so hard to wrap my liberal brain around it, despite making so many classic liberal mistakes. I don't know if I can do it. It just seems like you're saying that her policy is to have no policy -- which makes disagreement on policy grounds so tough. It's so Zen! Maybe I didn't take enough philosophy in college.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I guess that falls under the category of one man's slogan is another man's wonk.

Then again when one holds the belief that Obama has been incredibly successful with his policies while his party is facing a voter backlash of galactic proportions I suppose it is possible to construct your own personal reality.

shoutingthomas said...

It just seems like you're saying that her policy is to have no policy -- which makes disagreement on policy grounds so tough. It's so Zen! Maybe I didn't take enough philosophy in college.

Let me explain.

Let's suppose that BP hadn't been forced to drill miles from shore in deep water. That spill probably wouldn't have happened.

Instead, liberals had a grand plan for preserving the environment. And, not incidentally, that oil well wouldn't have been pretty close to shore.

We need oil. Lots of it. Our cars and our industry run on it.

What would have been better. Simply drilling close to shore?

Or should we just ban drilling altogether, park our cars and shut down our industry until the correct "green" energy manifests itself?

The disagreement is over (1) should economics be subject to grand planning by federal poobahs or (2) should economics simply happen with as little interference from federal poobahs as possible?

Try again. You can get it.

former law student said...

BP didn't want to drill at such incredible depths. It's original precis for drilling was close to shore and shallow.

Yes, what rational oil producer would want to drill where there were 2 Billion gallons of oil (House testimony of BP CEO Tony Hayward)?

And it's even funnier that Muammar Qaddafi's Libya would have the same environmental policy as the Obama administration.

The real question is how the Right can uncritically repeat this happy horse manure. Oil companies drill where the oil is.

BP to start Libya deepwater oil drilling soon

Oil drillers, users say world needs deepwater wells

Tue, Jun 22 2010

* To drill first well in next few weeks

* BP says has undertaken extensive and rigorous preparations

* Libya's NOC chairman happy for drilling to go ahead


By Alex Lawler

LONDON, July 1 (Reuters) - BP Plc, striving to contain the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, is soon to start deepwater drilling offshore Libya, where authorities say they are happy for the company to go ahead.

The well, in the Gulf of Sirte in the Mediterranean, is the first to be drilled under a $900 million deal BP signed with Libya in 2007, which it described at the time as its largest single exploration commitment.

"We're planning our first drilling there fairly soon. It's in the next few weeks and we've got a five-well commitment and we plan to drill two wells back to back," said BP spokesman David Nicholas on Thursday.

"The first one is planned to be in something like 5,700 feet of water."

...
The water depth of the Libyan well is deeper than the approximately 5,000 feet beneath which Transocean Ltd's rig Deepwater Horizon, licensed to BP, was drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. The rig exploded and sank, triggering the spill.


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6601CB20100701

shoutingthomas said...

fls,

Of course, BP made the best of it from a public relations standpoint after the fed forced it to drill in deep water.

Nonetheless, it was the fed that pushed the BP well out into deep water.

And, of course, BP hoped for the best and hoped to make lots of money.

We do need oil. And oil is an immensely profitable business... as it should be.

So, you've essentially made a completely empty statement.

Do you have anything of any substance to say?

Should we just learn to piss oil?

Daniel said...

Then again when one holds the belief that Obama has been incredibly successful with his policies while his party is facing a voter backlash of galactic proportions I suppose it is possible to construct your own personal reality.

Economy. That's it and that's all.

shoutingthomas said...

Do you drive a car, fls?

Or do you walk barefoot to your job?

I suspect that you live in a heated house, too.

former law student said...

As shoutingthomas provides the counterexample: Althouse must be a liberal because conservatives are incapable of critical thinking.

Daniel said...

Try again. You can get it.

I'm trying so hard!!! But it seems to me you're constructing a narrative to fit your perspective, that what one or two facts it considers are cherry picked, and that you are ignoring or are ignorant about a huge amount.

Damn it -- I have to try harder!!

I'm really not doing the BP thing though. FLS can take over on that.

shoutingthomas said...

So, fls, I've responded with a very real world statement:

Yes, BP certainly issued fluff PR statements about deep water drilling after the fed forced it to drill in deep water.

What did you expect?

I've worked in corporations all my life.

Every project I've ever been involved in is trumpeted with a full PR statement.

shoutingthomas said...

Every project I've ever been involved in is trumpeted with a full PR statement.

Should read:

Every project I've ever been involved in is trumpeted with a fluffy PR statement.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Economy. That's it and that's all.

Give that man a kewpie doll. Yes Daniel you have hit it on the noggin. Its the E C O N O M Y, not health care reform, not financial regulation reform, not cap and trade, not education reform, not DADT.

But that's not what Obama was focused on. He spent the better part of a year and a half of his administration pushing through a piece of legislation that a majority of the electorate was openly hostile toward while unemployment went up and up. He should have focused on that three letter word J O B S that Biden was talking about and then he could have had all the political capital he needed for his socialization of America.

Instead he's probably going to lose the House and a slim possibility of the Senate. Good job there Mr. President. You're a real wonk.

shoutingthomas said...

But it seems to me you're constructing a narrative to fit your perspective, that what one or two facts it considers are cherry picked, and that you are ignoring or are ignorant about a huge amount.

There is no "narrative."

A good conservative (and there are very few) does as little as possible in response to events as they occur.

The less the government does, the less harm it is likely to do.

Only when action is really necessary, and the potential negative consequences of action have been thoroughly vetted, should a politician act.

First, do no harm.

former law student said...

Yes, BP certainly issued fluff PR statements about deep water drilling after the fed forced it to drill in deep water.

Let me break this down for you:

1. BP
2. Signed a contract
3. with the brutal dictatorship of Muammar Qadaffi
4. in 2007, years before Obama became President
5. to drill off shore in deeper water than they did in the Gulf of Mexico
6. which st said they did only because US environmental regulations forced them to.

Which is therefore horseshit,

7. Because Libya is outside the ambit of US environmental regulations, and

8. Oil companies drill where the oil is.

QED.

Daniel said...

A good conservative (and there are very few) does as little as possible in response to events as they occur.

I GOT IT!! I tried, I tried, and now I understand.

Palin is the ultimate conservative because she doesn't do SHIT!!

See, you had some faith in me, and I came through.

Ankur said...

Personal Experience:

I've recently started commenting on this blog, as well as some left of center blogs. I have disagreed with stuff and agreed with stuff in both scenarios.

However, the only forum where I was labeled and assumptions thrust down my throat - was in the comments section of this blog.

As a recent commenter, the right has been a LOT harsher to me personally than the left, even though I've had just as voluble disagreements on both sides.

Of course, I am just one data point, and as everyone knows, one data point doesn't make a trend.

shoutingthomas said...

1. BP
2. Signed a contract
3. with the brutal dictatorship of Muammar Qadaffi
4. in 2007, years before Obama became President
5. to drill off shore in deeper water than they did in the Gulf of Mexico
6. which st said they did only because US environmental regulations forced them to.

Which is therefore horseshit,

7. Because Libya is outside the ambit of US environmental regulations, and

8. Oil companies drill where the oil is.

You've tried once again to make the normal course of business seem sinister.

BP's original plan was to drill in shallow water close to shore. The Fed denied their permit to do this. The oil is equally accessible in either location.

So, you agree with me completely, but you find something sinister in BP's actions.

So, once again:

Do you drive a car?

Do you live in a heated house?

Dictators are bad people. I certainly agree.

Do you have anything to say that has, you know, any substance?

shoutingthomas said...

And, fls,

If you drive a car, you support the "brutal dictatorship of Muammar Qadaffi."

If there anything going on in your empty head?

shoutingthomas said...

Palin is the ultimate conservative because she doesn't do SHIT!!

Well, you've stated it as an extreme negative.

Which do you prefer from a doctor:

1. Kills you as the result of performing a procedure that didn't need to be performed?

or

2. Does nothing at all?

Federal policy, well-intentioned at that, caused the mortgage meltdown.

Wouldn't it have been better never to have forced banks to make bad loans?

Ankur said...

shoutingthomas, you are really changing goalposts here. FLS's breakdown should really have ended any discussion regarding BPs eagerness to drill in deep water.

You keep saying they were forced to the deepwater in the gulf of mexico by ....someone. Link, please?

Ankur said...

But I do agree - talking about the brutal dictatorship of Gaddafi is more showboating than argumentation.

Daniel said...

Hoosier, I don't entirely disagree. What I disagree with was that there was a lot Obama could have done beyond what he did -- even with attention diverted to health care -- to reduce unemployment.

MadisonMan said...

Also no serious hurricanes, terror attacks or zombie outbreaks. And don't forget that Obama did stop the seas from rising - promised and delivered. So there.

It is true that no hurricane has made landfall in the USA since Obama was elected. I think, if McCain were President, that Hurricane Earl this year would have slammed head on into the Outer Banks of NC, instead of heading out to sea at the last moment because of Barack Hussein Obama!

shoutingthomas said...

shoutingthomas, you are really changing goalposts here. FLS's breakdown should really have ended any discussion regarding BPs eagerness to drill in deep water.

No, I am not.

The oil was equally accessible from either location.

BP is in business to make money from drilling for oil.

We need oil... lots of oil.

I suspect that you also drive a car and heat your house.

Ankur said...

Also...your choices in the 12.20 post are false choices. You either need a 'none of the above' or you need to enumerate all possible outcomes for it to be a valid choice exercise.

So...maybe something like

You're mortally sick. What would you have the doctor do?

1) Operate on you, knowing that could kill you or cure you completely

2) Not do anything, knowing that sometimes your condition can heal itself.

3) Perform an experimental surgery, unproved, promising, but highest chance of risk as well as return.

Amazingly enough, those are all different points on a classic risk-return chart. The framework is the model (a financial asset pricing model would be a good example). Whether you choose to go towards a higher risk profile or lower risk profile depends on your your investment horizon and what your return expectations are.

So many debates here are so interesting because they are personal preferences on the sliding scale of the same sociological model.

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