October 5, 2010

"The freedom of expression of at least 1.5 million people is standing trial together with me."

Says Geert Wilders, on trial in the Netherlands for writing, among other things: "I've had enough of the Quran in the Netherlands: Forbid that fascist book."

Paradoxically, the right to free speech must protect the right to say anti-free-speech things.

52 comments:

ricpic said...

What the hell does "The Holy Koran" have to do with freedom? It has everything to do with squelching freedom. Utterly. So of course a man of sense like Wilders wants to have the filthy thing banned in order to SAVE freedom.

Pastafarian said...

But he's not being prosecuted for suggesting something anti-free-speech, is he? Suppose he'd said: "Deport all Muslims." That wouldn't be anti-free-speech and he'd still be prosecuted.

I don't see the paradox as central or necessary here. This is a case of well-meaning but fascistic laws being used against someone trying to prevent creeping Sharia: There's no paradox here at all. Liberal fascism working hand-in-hand with Islamic fascism.

And yes, some ideas can be controlled in a free society. I can't publish a book on how to make IEDs or a how-to manual on pedophilia. Dangerous ideas, like the type that lead to young men flying airplanes into buildings.

Scott M said...

Refreshing to see a European politician, of any stripe, give the US props for this and that. Anyone know the difference between their speech laws and our 1st Amendment protections?

Lisa said...

So equating a religion with Nazism is a hate crime in Europe?

Are they arresting and charging all the Muslims throughout Europe who equate Jews with Nazis?

Kirk Parker said...

Scott M,

Yeah: we have a LOT more protection than they do.

Lisa,

Get real: of course not. :-(

traditionalguy said...

Wow!Wilders is not afraid of Allah, but the EU is afraid of Allah and also anyone with the courage to expose that nasty, slimey, alien god for the good of everyone, especially for Muslims trapped into a living hell, that wants to trap us next.

The Drill SGT said...

I can't publish a book on how to make IEDs

actually you can.

You can buy the Anarchist's Cookbook on Amazon

The Drill SGT said...

Europe is going down the tubes. With both their birth rate and the Muslim colonies.

We can't do much to stop it, but we can take advantage of it.

We should be altering our immigration policy to cut back on family reunification (aka anchor's away), and instead start skimming the best and brightest out of Europe before it goes into civil war.

Alex said...

Fascist pigs like Wilders should be prosecuted and made an example of. The holy Quran WILL be respected, infidels.

edutcher said...

The Renaissance began about the time of the Inquisition and it looks like Europe's flowering under it is going out with another Inquisition.

The Drill SGT said...

Europe is going down the tubes. With both their birth rate and the Muslim colonies.

We can't do much to stop it, but we can take advantage of it.

We should be altering our immigration policy to cut back on family reunification (aka anchor's away), and instead start skimming the best and brightest out of Europe before it goes into civil war.


Agree with you, Sarge, but I think the lights in Europe will go out the way e. e. cummings predicted.

AllenS said...

Europe is willing to sacrifice a few people in order to buy themselves a couple of more years. Eventually someone will come for them.

The Crack Emcee said...

If this were a fair trial he'd be allowed to speak with a machine gun.

Quaestor said...

Pastafarian:

A free society may not control ideas and remain free. Nor may a free society control actions or deeds, though a free society may deter actions through punishment or sanctions after the fact.

I may be wrong but I don't believe there is any US law proscribing publication of a DIY roadside bomb cookbook. The author of such a manual may search in vain for a publisher, publishers are after all businesses with reputations to protect. However, no law enforcement agency is going to try to exercise prior restrain against publication (prior restraint usually gets one on the bad side of a strict constructionist judge) unless there is evidence that the aforementioned IED handbook is part of a conspiracy to actually construct such a weapon.

Kiddie porn is something of a special case. Prohibitions of that particular form of filth ultimately hinge on the fact that real kiddie porn can't be produced unless real children are abused.

Holland's "anti-hatred" law isn't well-meaning. It's unalloyed fascism, plain and simple. As I have written elsewhere, this prosecution of Geert Wilders signals the degeneration of the Kingdom of the Netherlands from a free, enlightened society into an unfree fascist oligarchy.

Quaestor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alex said...

Geert Wilders must be made an example of. Teabagger trials to follow in 2013!

Almost Ali said...

I see the Geert Wilders trial as a positive - nothing less than a huge alarm now resonating throughout Europe.

traditionalguy said...

The elaboate governmental Star Chamber like procedures set up for Hate Crimes violations become their own deterrent even if a non serious charge is thrown out years later.

Quaestor said...

It would be if Wilders were the first to be persecuted for his opinions. However, there is the case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali who was driven out of her adopted homeland for her strident criticism of Islam. The "miner's canary" has already died unnoticed.

Sixty Grit said...

The need to stick to their knitting.

WV: parify - equal opportunity ethnic cleansing.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)

And yes, some ideas can be controlled in a free society. I can't publish a book on how to make IEDs or a how-to manual on pedophilia. Dangerous ideas, like the type that lead to young men flying airplanes into buildings.

Ah, actually yes you DO....

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)

You can not only buy the Anarchist's Cookbook, but also Improvised Munitions.

Quaestor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Quaestor said...

Pastafarian wrote: "Dangerous ideas, like the type that lead to young men flying airplanes into buildings."

Do you also claim that matches lead to arson? Or that pornography causes rape? How about breweries? Do they cause alcoholism?

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)
Dangerous ideas, like the type that lead to young men flying airplanes into buildings.

Dangerous ideas like John Locke's or dangerous ideas like Madison, Jefferson, and Adams'? You know the king DOES NOT HAVE A DIVINE RIGHT to rule...that "supreme executive power comes from a mandate from the masses", or the "Consent of the Governed" or "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."-you know that the governed have a RIGHT, in fact, to rebel when the King abrogates our Yhwh-Given rights?

All those kind of dangerous ideas?

Or the idea that Blacks have a right to freedom (600,000 Americans died debating THIS idea), or that they have a right to vote, to sit on juries, to hold property, to marry whom they will?

All these ahve been held to be "dangerous ideas" and men have died as a result of the disagreements over them...should we have outlawed discussions of these dangerous ideas?

pst314 said...

Remember the libertarian Pim Fortuyn? He was relentlessly demonized by the Dutch left as a fascist and a racist, until finally he was murdered by a Green Party member who believed he was so dangerous that he had to die.

It was okay to call a libertarian a fascist, but it's illegal to apply the term to a religion with clearly fascistic characteristics?

Like most of the rest of Western Europe, the Netherlands is run by fascists who call themselves progressive.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)

You know this whole Brou-haha/kerfluffle is a result of the progressive perversion of the right of speech..from a right to speak, to a right to not be “offended.” Can’t offend womyn, gays, transvestites, Muslims, or anyone else, to the Left or who might riot…you now have a “right” to be secure in your ignorance or self-righteousness.

Scott M said...

@Joe

This is merely more support for the very simple, yet very descriptive, way of looking at left and right. The further you slide left, the closer to tyranny. The further you slide right, the closer to anarchy. More control to less control.

Politically correct speech is just one of those things scholars will look back at 100 years from now and wonder why we couldn't see what was happening to us. I suppose the frog does boil to death slowly.

Kirk Parker said...

Quaestor,

Wilders is different because it's an explicit trial aiming to sanction him for his speech. The worst that happened with Hirsi Ali was that someone in government threatened to open an investigation into her immigration status, but afaik this was never actually done.

El Pollo Real said...

Roland Freisler said: You see: if you still don't recognize it, if you still need to be instructed on it, it shows that you think differently and have thereby excluded yourself from the fighting community of the people. link

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)

Pasta, it’s not “dangerous ideas” we must guard against, mostly, but rather DANGEROUS ACTS…Had Wilders said, “I say that everyone in the sound of my voice needs to kill at least two Muslims in the next 24 hours.”, sure a trial would be warranted…Had Wilders said, “As a matter of policy I am entering into a conspiracy with Fascists and Religious Rightwing Fanatics to overthrow the duly-elected government of the Netherlands and I call upon all my followers and other members of the conspiracy to march on the Parliament, tonight, to demand my appointment as Maximal Leader of Die Zeven Provinciën”-that would merit arrest and a trial. But simply saying “Were I in charge of Holland Muslims would feel the ‘knout’” or “Holland needs a strong leader in the model of Seys-Inquart or Hitler” merits contempt, and nothing else. It’s not ideas we must use the State to punish, it’s only ACTS, ideas must be fought and defeated elsewhere.

Methadras said...

After his trial, Wilders will should come to the US and run for office here. I'd vote for him.

bagoh20 said...

All he needs to do to get out of this is say:

I'm sorry, I didn't mean Quran, I mean to say Bible. Sorry."

From criminal to voice of courage in an instant.

Quaestor said...

Kirk,

Immigration minister Rita Verdonk did open an investigation of Ayaan Hiris Alo and did begin proceedings to strip her of her Dutch citizenship.

My point was the effort to expel Ali from Holland was the proverbial canary in the coal mine. Ali felt compelled to resign from parliament and has lived in the US ever since. If the Dutch had been paying attention then this persecution of Wilders may not have happened.

Ironclad said...

I worked in Holland for a few months last year - and in the time I was there (reading in a Dutch newspaper on the train) of small riots that they were having over the local population reacting to a Muslim policeman shooting a man that had disarmed a muslim young guy threatening a pregnant woman with a knife. The man was holding the knife and the policeman shot him from 25 feet away saying he felt "threatened". The point is that the community had had enough harassment and the shooting provoked a small riot.

But the reaction to that was the main topic of the story - the government there went out of their way to shut it down HARD. No Dutch dare resist. That is why Wilders is popular - people there have had enough.

It is also ironic that the trial starts when Wilders has gained a shadow position in the new government AND many places in Europe are on full alert over the potential for an Airport or civilian area attack. I frankly think the judges are recalibrating there - if they have the guy on trial and something like that happens anywhere in Europe, Wilders will look like a hero and the court like fools.

Kirk Parker said...

Quaestor,

Thanks, apparently I misremember the details. Your subsequent post "effort to expel" helps clarify, too--didn't Hirsi Ali up and leave at that point (meaning the investigation and hearing were never finished)? That's probably what I was remembering...

Kirk Parker said...

Meth: please, no.

Wilders is only "right-wing" in European terms, and because of his vocal anti-Islamization stance. Over here, he'd be somewhere between Hillary and Bill in terms of overall politics.

Paddy O said...

"We are only Muslims ... but if you call us terrorists, we are proud terrorists and we will keep on terrorizing you," Faisal Shahzad said.

He added: "We do not accept your democracy or your freedom because we already have Sharia law and freedom."

Shahzad was sentenced to life in prison for his failed attempt to blow up Times Square.

El Pollo Real said...

Shahzad was sentenced to life in prison for his failed attempt to blow up Times Square.

His were deeds, not words.

Joaquin said...

When $hit hits the fan in Europe, it almost always starts in a small country. Then.......KABOOOM!

Quaestor said...

Kirk,

Yes she left shortly after she resigned. The Dutch parliament put an end to Verdonk's expulsion effort before it matured, but not before Ali left Holland, for good most likely. She says she doesn't feel safe in a country that coddles jihadists and persecutes people who speak their minds.

wv: thing - Ah, come on...

Richard Dolan said...

Hard to see how this misguided prosecution doesn't backfire badly. Wilders' party is already a force in Dutch politics, and this will only make it more of one. The prosecution evidently agrees, since (according to the article) the gov't didn't want to bring the case but was ordered by the investigating magistrate to do so.

It's also reminicent of the Canadian witchhunt against Mark Steyn.

edutcher said...

AllenS said...

Europe is willing to sacrifice a few people in order to buy themselves a couple of more years. Eventually someone will come for them.

After 1939, they know how it works.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)
Europe is willing to sacrifice a few people in order to buy themselves a couple of more years. Eventually someone will come for them.
After 1939, they know how it works.

Really you think so? I’m not so sure.

Kirk Parker said...

Quaestor,

Wasn't part of the motivation for leaving also that the government had withdrawn her security detail?

Lem said...

Dutch anti-Islam politician Geert Wilders... According to anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders..

I wonder what else is this guy..
Anti-Islam driver? Anti-Islam cook? does he watch Anti-Islam sports?

The AP BS.

AllenS said...

Yes, edutcher. But, I'm afraid they have no sense of history. WWI, WWII and I'll bet that WWIII will also start in Europe. There are certain segments of our (US) society that thinks we need to be more European in our thinking and and governing. WWIII shall be a big population of the earth reduction. One way or another.

Palladian said...

Pastafarian said... "I can't publish a book on how to make IEDs or a how-to manual on pedophilia..."

Actually yes, you can.

Quaestor said...

Kirk,

I'm sure that had something to do with it in the short term.

edutcher said...

AllenS said...

Yes, edutcher. But, I'm afraid they have no sense of history. WWI, WWII and I'll bet that WWIII will also start in Europe. There are certain segments of our (US) society that thinks we need to be more European in our thinking and and governing. WWIII shall be a big population of the earth reduction. One way or another.

Quite possible, but the ones here that want us to be like the Euros have had their big shot and it's not turning out very well.

As has been the case, I thing the US will remain the anti-Europe.

PS By 1939, I meant that they know when to start selling out the Jews, passing out the yellow stars, looking the other way when the cattle cars go past...

AllenS said...

There was a man, who lived in Germany when the Nazi's were gaining control of the country, by the name of Pastor Martin Niemöller, who said these words, and I've never forgotten them:

They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.


These are words, that should be repeated constantly. I'm sorry, but there are so very few of us left, who understand what this man meant.

Let us look at only the commenters of this blog. Who among us, has ever expressed any concern that what happened to the good Pastor will not happen again. Alpha? Mr. House? Ritmo? Any of the assortment of Homo commenters?

Who will be the last to voice a concern? But people like me.

Kirby Olson said...

They don't have a second amendment in Holland either.

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