September 8, 2010

"People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation..."

"... much like building a mosque at Ground Zero."

Exactly and obviously. Nice squelching by Sarah Palin.

111 comments:

Big Mike said...

Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

Scott M said...

The parallels are striking. Much like the similarities between Koran burning and flag burning.

tim maguire said...

It was nice to see Michael Bloomberg show some consistency on the issue--except for the major tone change.

In both cases he defended the right in question, but in the case of the mosque, he attacked the opponents (this is about freedom of religion); in the case of the Koran burning, he attacked the burners (they have a right to act stupidly if they want).

So even when he's right, he's still a shameless jackass

Chip Ahoy said...

Well, burning a text that a large number of people hold sacred is blasphemous and building a mosque isn't, but other than that they do provoke similarly and unnecessarily.

Peter V. Bella said...

Sort of like a Crucifix in urine and the BVM in dung. Even Swastikas are protected as well as hangmen's nooses. Of course we normal people do not threaten mayhem, death, and destruction over art or free expression. We are a civilized people. We just shout, scream, complain, and use the media to do our dirty work.

Burning the Koran, like desecrating any other religious symbol is in poor taste, disgusting, and insensitive. But, this is America and poor taste and insensitivity are protected. We do not have to like it. We do have to accept it.

LonewackoDotCom said...

The only way that works is if the very fact of building their center is itself a provocation (and it was meant as such, which AFAIK hasn't been established). Has Palin been hiring Tea Party Idiots to post to Facebook for her?

Scott M said...

We do have to accept it.

Tolerate. Not accept.

Doug Wright said...

Blackfive has information that the Dove Church is associated in some fashion with the Phelps Westboro Church. So, it seems that those two nutcases are flocking together.

Just to make it clear to some of our Marxist commenters here, those two churches have that right as does the good Imam the right to build his Islamic Center, whatever the heck that means. And, we others also have the right to criticism those asshats of both stripes.

Somehow, Bloomberg and those Marxists commenters have expressed the view that no one may criticise the Imam. Yet they also demand the right to suppress those two obnoxious churches, rather than simplying telling the two churches to go to hell.

El Pollo Real said...

Why couldn't POTUS have said something so simple?

garage mahal said...

Not sure this Imam is willing to give his life up for the cause, as is this nutbag in FL said he is willing to do.

traditionalguy said...

The beauty of Palin's prose again astounds me. She has the right point of view and stands by that on every issue. The MSNBC crowd sputters that she doesn't any know big words and someone else writes all her material. Whoever the writer is needs to run for President. The Pastor in Florida is a stubborn man who makes an idol out of his own opinions.

traditionalguy said...

Sorry for the dyslexia...that was"know any".

Lawler Walken said...

I don't really see the parallel all that much. People burn books because they're afraid of what's inside of them. They may say it's some other reason, to make some kind of grand statement about something, but it's really just fear. Any book that has to be burned to make a statement has to be a terribly powerful book. But the Koran IS a powerful book. A billion Muslims think so anyway.

This church burning the Koran reveals their fear of its power. People opposing the mosque aren't doing so out of fear. But then I'm not opposed to the GZM. It has no more meaning than what we choose to give it. Which in my case is none.

El Pollo Real said...

Garage Mahal wrote: Not sure this Imam is willing to give his life up for the cause, as is this nutbag in FL said he is willing to do.

Wow Garage, you make that Imam sound like bin Larden or something. Those top dog al-Qaeda types are never willing to die for their cause--they just find minions willing to do so.

Methadras said...

This is actually a great thing. Denunciations are coming from all directions and yet, this kook of a pastor is going to do it anyway. What this shows is that, we as a society, are willing to tolerate just about anything and are willing to, as a society, denounce those things with which we disagree with. This shows the world, especially those piece of sub-human animals in bed-sheets, that we can disagree on all kinds of things without issuing fatwahs, death threats, and acts of violence that kill their own kind for the sake of their perpetual outrage. Sarah Palin nailed it on the head and I'm sure our in-house decrepit leftards are just chuckling about it too.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Nice moral equivalence. Nice intellectual bankruptcy.

The one difference is that Americans may die because of the Koran burning-- because we're fighting a war in Afghanistan, where some people already think Americans are there to kill muslims and destroy islam. They like to find any pretext to get ginned up and go out mobbing.

It's hard to get idiots like the people in Florida to understand we're fighting a counterinsurgency war, and stuff like this matters. It don't matter if it's right or wrong-- it's adding to the burden of foreign soldiers and civilians in Afghanistan.

What I fervently wish, is if we could drop the idiots from around the world into an arena so they could fight each other and leave the rest of us out of it. All the gung-ho, illiterate idiots can tear each other limb from limb, and I'll sit up in the stands with my Afghan buddies and laugh.

chuck b. said...

That's a muuuch better picture of Sarah Palin than the cover of her last book.

Dead Julius said...

WTF? Sarah Palin being sensible and reasonable? Where's the inflammatory rhetoric? Where is the folksy call to action?

Oh, it's Wacky Wednesday. For a few more hours at least. Plz Sarah, be back to y'er Hitlerish usual self in the 'morrow.

Mark said...

"The one difference is that Americans may die because of the Koran burning-- because we're fighting a war in Afghanistan, where some people already think Americans are there to kill muslims and destroy islam. They like to find any pretext to get ginned up and go out mobbing."

This is of course assuming no Americans (or Muslims of assorted nationalities, including American) die because some yahoo Imam backed by yahoo oil money can't (or can, and is milking it) get a grip on the idea that people are still upset that Jihadis (acting in the name of Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) waged an act of Jihad (that's what jihadis do) on We The People.

MM, I'd call you without nuance, but you'd think I was saying you needed household deodorizer.

chuck b. said...

"That's a muuuch better picture of Sarah Palin than the cover of her last book."

So I assume the book itself is much better too.

Almost Ali said...

Word choice:

provocation: Criminal Law. Words or conduct leading to killing in hot passion and without deliberation. (Random House)

Still, I would have said it differently, a word more to the point: Sharia

It's against Sharia, and in this context Sharia applies to everyone. We're under the jurisdiction of Sharia. Praise Allah.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Once again Palin shows her common sense, something almost completely lacking in this administration.

Pogo said...

Meanwhile, Obama has named the Asian carp czar.
Then it's tee time.
Busy, busy, busy.

traditionalguy said...

The art of educating people is to meet them where their knowledge extends to and slowly add to their base of knowledge from there. That first Palin book was the original gutsy hero of the campaign tale that everyone already knew. Now she is filling in our knowledge base about her with the second book and her daily bon mots on the news of the moment. What a good teacher she has turned out to be. Weren't her parents teachers?

Albatross said...

People burn books because they're afraid of what's inside of them. They may say it's some other reason, to make some kind of grand statement about something, but it's really just fear. Any book that has to be burned to make a statement has to be a terribly powerful book.

Les Stroud says you should burn his book, or at least parts of it, if you need a fire and fear for your life. At first, I thought that was profound, in a terribly powerful way. Then I just saw it as a way to sell more books.

Montagne Montaigne said...

No one has yet defined exactly what physical radius is occupied by the holy immanence of ground zero. So far it seems to extend to Tennessee and California. Perhaps it's global? In which case, they should build mosques on the moon.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Obama is arrogant, but Palin is precisely aware of the extent that her intellect and talent qualify her for a role as the leader of our people.

Pogo said...

" they should build mosques on the moon."

Farther.

Bruce Hayden said...

I don't really see the parallel all that much. People burn books because they're afraid of what's inside of them. They may say it's some other reason, to make some kind of grand statement about something, but it's really just fear.

I disagree. It is rather, the absence of fear. Note that one of the big reasons that people give for not burning the Koran is a fear of Muslims throughout the world responding. And these people are saying that they are not afraid of that.

We have seen, time and time again, that westerners step back when threatened by Muslims in this fashion. That we are afraid of them and their religious zeal. But the more we retreat in the face of their threats of violence, and their actual violence, the more it emboldens them.

Note - I am not advocating the burning of the Koran, but rather pointing out that our deference to their religious preferences, while they show none to ours, is likely to harm us in the long run.

This church burning the Koran reveals their fear of its power. People opposing the mosque aren't doing so out of fear. But then I'm not opposed to the GZM. It has no more meaning than what we choose to give it. Which in my case is none.

The more that we learn about the Mosque at GZ, the more it appears that the placement of it there is primarily confrontational, that it is being built there to, essentially, spit in our eyes, and to point out that they can build such there, two blocks from their biggest religious triumph of the last century or so, and our western ideals so weaken us that we can't do anything about it.

Dead Julius said...

No one has yet defined exactly what physical radius is occupied by the holy immanence of ground zero.

Seems to me like there is a common sense answer.

All of downtown south of Canal Street, maybe.

Within 1-2 miles of the WTC site.

Within a 20-30 minute walk.

Take your pick.

Almost Ali said...

It's almost as if moderate Muslims are congenitally reactive. Like any little thing will set them off, a billion little bombs ready to explode.

Well, I say - let the pastor burn his Korans so we can get a head count. I mean, I'm really curious to see how many so-called moderate Muslims there are in the world. After all, if Mayor Bloomberg considers Imam Rauf a moderate, what in Allah's name is an "extremist"?

Montagne Montaigne said...

The more that we learn about the Mosque at GZ, the more it appears that the placement of it there is primarily confrontational, that it is being built there to, essentially, spit in our eyes, and to point out that they can build such there, two blocks from their biggest religious triumph of the last century or so, and our western ideals so weaken us that we can't do anything about it.

This canard is entirely fictional and is a meme spread by the insecure and paranoid. Yet, it is accepted as FACT by many quarters on the right.

I gotta hand it to them, they are awfully creative. So are truthers, birthers, and other assorted kooks. If it was fiction, it would be cute, but as it's fervent belief it seems more like the symptoms of a mental disorder-- schizophrenia, perhaps?

exhelodrvr1 said...

The best suggestion I've seen is that they should read passages from the Koran; much easier to make their point that way.

Pogo said...

"Rauf a moderate, what in Allah's name is an "extremist"?"

Palin, by Bloomberg criteria.

Bruce Hayden said...

Obama is arrogant, but Palin is precisely aware of the extent that her intellect and talent qualify her for a role as the leader of our people.

Which may be part of why she is so feared on the left, and why she may be our next President.

I think that it is rather amazing. In so many issues, it seems like everyone holds their breath until Ms. Palin makes her views known. And then they know how to respond. (and, no, I am not suggesting that she is a one woman Journalist). You don't see this with any of her Republican competitors. No one waits to hear what Mitt Romney, for example, thinks. No one really cares.

The more that she paints herself as the anti-Obama, and the more he loses attraction, the more inevitable it will seem that she is the Republican nominee in 2012.

Geoff Matthews said...

It wasn't against the law for Newsweek to publish a story about guards flushing the Koran down the toilet either. Only difference is that this guard will probably burn a koran.

would have been nice of the media exercised some restraint back then.

garage mahal said...

Wow Garage, you make that Imam sound like bin Larden or something.

You missed it by [.............] that much.

Not the Imam.

Bruce Hayden said...

This canard is entirely fictional and is a meme spread by the insecure and paranoid. Yet, it is accepted as FACT by many quarters on the right.

And how do you know that it is fictional, a meme, etc., and not reality? Have you talked with those behind the building of the Mosque. Looked into their eyes to see their sincerity? Or, did you just read this somewhere, in some liberal outlet?

Any number of mainstream American Muslims have come out to decry the building of the Mosque there as intentionally confrontational. And, yet, they continue with their plans.

But, somehow, we are not supposed to antagonize, or be confrontational towards Muslims because of our fear about how they will react.

Seven Machos said...

Only Wacko would complain about a perfectly sensible statement.

Why aren't these people following you, dude? You are their leader.

Joshua said...

What amazes me to no end - in a good way, but it still amazes me - is that no one else has beaten the Rev. Jones and company to the punch.

Jones invited - strike that, he practically begged others to copycat his stunt even before the fact, by making his intentions known five or six days in advance. Surely it wouldn't take that long for some yahoo to get a hold of a Qur'an, shoot a 5-minute video of himself tossing it into his fireplace and watching it burn, and put it up on YouTube and elsewhere. If the US is really as "Islamophobic" as the MSM claims, why haven't they already been able to inundate us with reports of Qur'an-burning videos in the run-up to Jones's "main event" on Saturday?

Bruce Hayden said...

It wasn't against the law for Newsweek to publish a story about guards flushing the Koran down the toilet either. Only difference is that this guard will probably burn a koran.

It wasn't against the law, but it sure was stupid, and, yes, anti-American. Since, of course, the flushing by the guards never happened (but Muslims at Club Gitmo did apparently try to do so in order to stuff up the plumbing).

Montagne Montaigne said...

And how do you know that it is fictional, a meme, etc., and not reality? Have you talked with those behind the building of the Mosque. Looked into their eyes to see their sincerity? Or, did you just read this somewhere, in some liberal outlet?

Dude, the burden of proof is on you to prove this, not to me to disprove. You just assert it. When one asserts something, one assumes the burden of proof.

How do you know that I am not El Zorro? Have you looked into my eyes and determined my deep sincerity? Or did you read it in some conservative blog?

Lawler Walken said...

"Note that one of the big reasons that people give for not burning the Koran is a fear of Muslims throughout the world responding. And these people are saying that they are not afraid of that."

So you think he wants to burn the Koran to prove he's not afraid of Muslims? It has nothing to do with his preaching that Islam is the work of the devil?

He may say that he's not afraid of the consequences of burning the Koran but that's not why he's burning it, to prove that lack of fear. It's because he thinks it's evil. And maybe because he wants publicity for his raggedy ass church with its 30 members. It's really the motivations of his followers that I was speaking about. They listen to him, they're afraid of what they don't know and understand so they burn a book.

I don't think this is up there with the burning of the Library at Alexandria but then I'm not a Muslim. Who for the most part, from what I'm reading in the Arab press, are attributing this act to a fear of the Koran's divine power. So he's got that going for him, validating what they already believe.

traditionalguy said...

Monte...The Caliphate of Cordoba was SW Spain and it attacked the Christians to the northeast and then they re-attacked the Muslims in Cordoba for 200 years of back and forth conquest while N. African Morrocan fighters came over to Spain regularly to turn the tide for Jihad. That finally ended in 1492, but the Spanish had become Crusaders in the land of Spain for 200 years. That gave the Spanish the arrogance and fighting skills that the Genoese Admiral Columbus lead over into the Caribean, Mexico and everywhere else their was a rumor of Gold in The New World. IMO taking Manhattan is seen by the Muslims as their chance to outflank the Franks (their name for all Europeans) and encircle Europe. It has only been 518 years, and allah does not give up easy.

traditionalguy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MadisonMan said...

The Pastor in Florida who wants to burn Korans is as good at getting noticed as is Sarah Palin.

jamboree said...

Agree. It's the same tactic and distasteful. I was angered at the idea of the mosque, and I'm not feeling some kind of reverse glee at this provocation.

c3 said...

Actually a stronger statement of restraint than John Boehner's comment today

garage mahal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MadisonMan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
garage mahal said...

Kind of like buying cases of French wine to smash it in a parking lot. We'll show them!

MadisonMan said...

I saw this yesterday. Laughed.

I think of Jim Jones when I read about the pastor. Similarly wacky.

jr565 said...

Montagne wrote:The one difference is that Americans may die because of the Koran burning-- because we're fighting a war in Afghanistan, where some people already think Americans are there to kill muslims and destroy islam. They like to find any pretext to get ginned up and go out mobbing.


It's hard to get idiots like the people in Florida to understand we're fighting a counterinsurgency war, and stuff like this matters. It don't matter if it's right or wrong-- it's adding to the burden of foreign soldiers and civilians in Afghanistan.

It would have been so nice if for the entire duration then of Bush's two terms if the left hadn't constantly screeched about our war of imperialism against Islam or that we were only attacking them to enrich Bush's oil buddies. You know, because of that counterinsurgency we were waging and because there were plenty of muslims just waiting for a provocation to go out and kill americans. You'd think riling up The Minutemen in Iraq who were planting car bombs would be something that the left would play down, considering the sensitivity of it all. Also, the constant refrain of them hating us for our policies thus suggesting that they had every reason to fight us since our policies were so imperialistic. Not to mention the leaking of confidential programs that would either protect our troops or assist in fighting against said terrorists. Or suggesting that we were desecrating Korans, or even the whole waterboard debate (though to be honest, I think the fact that we were so ouraged that we waterboardd high level terrorists was more an example of them thinking we were pussies. When Nick Berg got his head sawed off they didn't even give the guy an anasthetic. Something tells me that they are not too outraged by waterboarding).

But it's good to know that NOW all of a sudden, the left recognizes the sensitivity of our counterinsurgency.

Isn't it funny though how incensed they get and how easy it is to turn them into rabid killers at the least provocation. It's almost like they're Joe Pesci in Good Fellas when Spider tells him to f himself or when the boss who got out of jail tells him to get his shinebox.

jr565 said...

Why is this priest an intolerant bigot, yet the guy who made Piss Christ a corageous free speech icon? Or why is Bill Maher who made a whole movie about the idiocy of religion (read: christianity) not treated exatly the same.
I think it's the medium used. If this preacher were just a bit more creative about his desecration and if he desecrated the right target he'd be hailed as a hero.The guy just needs a pr agent.

AC245 said...

MadisonMan said...

The Pastor in Florida who wants to burn Korans is as good at getting noticed as is Sarah Palin.


Good to see the local "impotent, limp and gutless" representative chiming in with this sort of comparison.

(Maybe if you keep thinking about Palin you can work yourself up into another frothing rage about how she wants to force you to pay for her to have unprotected sex. That was fucking hilarious!)

AC245 said...

Remember the rules the leftists laid down during the Ground Zero Mosque discussions for situations like these:

1. It's a local issue. If you don't live in their neighborhood, you have no right to voice an opinion.

2. They're a religious group, so if you oppose what they're doing, you're a bigot.

3. They're a religious group, so if you oppose what they're doing, you hate the First Amendment, the Constitution, and America.

4. No matter how vile and hateful the people involved in the event have shown themselves to be, we must pretend that they have only pure and noble intentions. (This guy's church is called the "Dove World Outreach Center" for crying out loud - this can't possibly be some kind of provocative display of hate and intolerance!)

MadisonMan said...

AC245, is it not an apt comparison?

I like to see people who can get noticed. Palin has that skill down in spades. So does Rev. Jones, for the moment. Whether he has the ability to keep doing it, or is just a one and done phenomena, remains to be seen.

jr565 said...

Maybe the NEA can give him a 15,000 dollar grant for his desecration like Serrano got for Piss Christ. Though I think that rather than burning the Koran he should shit on it. Because defecation is just more artistic.

Seven Machos said...

Madison -- Obama had the skill to get noticed, did he not?

Obama:Palin is much more apt than Crazy Florida Cult Preacher:Palin.

peter hoh said...

I'm happy to give Palin credit for making a smart statement.

As for the part about people burning books because they fear them . . . Bunk. I think that Terry Jones is motivated by attention.

I'm not shocked that Fred Phelps wants in on the action.

Quaestor said...

Montagne Montaigne wrote: "No one has yet defined exactly what physical radius is occupied by the holy immanence of ground zero."

Immanence. Loaded word that. I reject immanence in favor of remembrance. Let's just say the debris field holds memories and significance, just like the rusting hulk that is Battleship Arizona.

No need to go to the moon. They're welcome to anything north of Chambers Street and Broadway.

Quaestor said...

Montagne Montaigne wrote: "No one has yet defined exactly what physical radius is occupied by the holy immanence of ground zero."

Immanence. Loaded word that. I reject immanence in favor of remembrance. Let's just say the debris field holds memories and significance, just like the rusting hulk that is Battleship Arizona.

No need to go to the moon. They're welcome to anything north of Chambers Street and Broadway.

New "Hussein" Ham said...

"The one difference is that Americans may die because of the Koran burning-- because we're fighting a war in Afghanistan ..."

And why is Barack Obama warring in Afghanistan Montangne? Why hasn't he brought the troops home?

"We" aren't at war in Afghanistan ... Barack Obama is. It is Barack Obama ordering the US military to murder people with drones. No trials ... just pull the trigger. Don't try to capture ... kill them from Florida. Remotely.

Barack Obama is doing that with no Congressional authority. It's his illegal war. He is the war criminal.

Did the Taliban attack us on 9-11? No, they didn't. Osama bin Laden did. Al Queda did. Not the Taliban. So why is Barack Obama killing Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Yemen?

Barack Obama is clearly at war with Islam. He is not only burning the Qur An, he is burning the people who carry the Qur An. He's burning them and their book with drone missiles.

Afghanistan is Barack Obama's illegal war of choice, and anyone who votes to re-elect Barack Obama is an accessory to his murders.

You, Montangne, are just as guilty as your president Barack Obama.

New "Hussein" Ham said...

No one has yet defined exactly what physical radius is occupied by the holy immanence of ground zero."

Then I will, you fucking asshole.

It's from he halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli.

Montagne Montaigne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Whiskey Jim said...

The pastor should hold a press conference now.

He should say, "I was never going to burn the Koran. My point is well made across the world as millions of Muslims call for my head. It is also well made in America by the idiots who defend the reaction."

Enough said.

Robert Cook said...

This specious "comparison" of burning Korans and building a Muslim community center is self-serving bullshit, a false equivalency, and further demonstration of and justification for ignorance and bigotry.

HDHouse said...

Big Mike said...
Beautiful. Simply beautiful."

Yes Big Mike. Way too beautiful. As a fairly well paid ghost writer who takes pains to interject the style of the person for whom I am ghosting, this is in NO WAY written by Sarah Palin.

The sentences are not in her cadence, far too long, and her word usage (e.g. antiethical, ramifications etc.) don't appear in her other writings. Imagine, in your mind's voice, Sarah's voice delivering this prose and you'll hear what I mean.

Pogo said...

Then, as a ghost writer, you should have no problem with it at all.

Robert Cook said...

Bruce Hayden said:

"...(Palin) is so feared on the left, and...she may be our next President."

It is to laugh.

Palin herself isn't feared, she's scorned for being bone deep stupid, as well as lazy and grasping. (She quit her half-term governership because she couldn't be bothered with the grinding work of actually doing her job. Easier to grab at big bucks by being a "media star," trotted out to make propaganda points for the oligarchs, her counterfeit "populist cred" a mere tool for them to bring the more lumpen among the proletariat into a state of self-abnegating voluntary serfdom to their fascist point of view.)

There's no chance Palin will come within a miracle mile of the White House--she doesn't want it. It's too hard. Moreover, the delusions of her supporters aside, she has nowhere near the support among Americans to win the nomination, (or the fortitude to last through a grueling campaign).

We should fear what Palin represents and arouses and appeals to: intractable ignorance, bigotry, xenophobia, jingoism, and hatred. Others who are smarter, tougher, more ambitious, and harder workers than she may exploit these ugly strains among us to actually win high office or otherwise gain power.

Almost Ali said...

Cultural "bridge builder" Imam Rauf had a lot to mosque about on CNN last night. In fact, he said so much, this morning's NYT wouldn't quote Imam Rauf's direct threat against the United States:

"...this crisis could become much bigger than the Danish cartoon crisis... it could become something which could really become very, very, very dangerous indeed.” - Imam Rauf

Translation: You're going to eat shit, Mr & Mrs America, and you're going to like it.

Fen said...

Robert Cook: It is to laugh. Palin herself isn't feared

Yes, you keep saying that.

But you soil your boxers everytime her name comes up.

she's scorned for being bone deep stupid

Stupid and/or Evil. Yes, we've heard all this before.

as well as lazy and grasping. (She quit her half-term governership because she couldn't be bothered with the grinding work of actually doing her job.

And I love your false assertion that must be backed up with a lie. She quit as Governor because libtards like you were bankrupting her with frivolous lawsuits and interfering with her ability to serve as Governor. She quit because your Alinksy tactics were hurting the people of Alaska.

Fen said...

Libtard: This canard is entirely fictional and is a meme spread by the insecure and paranoid. Yet, it is accepted as FACT by many quarters on the right.

I gotta hand it to them, they are awfully creative.


Thanks, but it has more to do our study of Islamic history than being "awfully creative".

Its a Trophy Mosque.

Libtard: This specious "comparison" of burning Korans and building a Muslim community center is self-serving bullshit,

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

Libtard: justification for ignorance and bigotry.

You're the one who worries the "barabaric little brown people" will riot at the slightest provocation.

[...]

"There is some justice in one charge that is frequently leveled against the United States, and more generally against the West: Middle Easterners frequently complain that the West judges them by different and lower standards than it does Europeans and Americans, both in what is expected of them and what they may expect, in terms of their economic well-being and their political freedom. They assert that Western spokesmen repeatedly overlook or even defend actions and support rulers that they would not tolerate in their own countries.

...there is nevertheless a widespread [Western] perception that there are significant differences between the advanced Western world and the rest, notably the peoples of Islam, and that these latter are in some ways different, with the tacit assumption that they are inferior. The most flagrant violations of civil rights, political freedom, and even human decency are disregarded or glossed over, and crimes against humanity, which in a European or American country would evoke a storm of outrage, are seen as normal and even acceptable.

...The underlying assumption in all this is that these people are incapable of running a democratic society and have neither concern nor capacity for human decency."

The Crisis of Islam, Bernard Lewis, p104

Clyde said...

I find it ironic that people are making a plea for religious tolerance for Islam, a religion that is notoriously intolerant of other religions. Someone on the local talk radio program this morning asked is anyone had heard of instances of Muslims burning Bibles. The answer: Of course not, since Bibles are banned in many Islamic countries. You can't attend a church or a synagogue in Saudi Arabia, for instance, because they are banned, and Jews are not even allowed in the country. And if you're an infidel, you aren't even allowed to enter the "holy city" of Mecca. When Muslims conquered a country, they turned churches and synagogues into mosques. "Idols" like the Buddha statues in Afghanistan were destroyed.

However, it's still an idiotic stunt to burn Korans and set off the Muslims. They don't need an excuse to hate us; our mere existence is enough for a sizable number of them. No sense in making it worse, though.

Shanna said...

"The one difference is that Americans may die because of the Koran burning-- because we're fighting a war in Afghanistan ..."

The only reason people won't die for the GZM is because in our society we don't, as a rule, go around killing people for that sort of thing.

The book burning is idiotic and I hope they don't do it (when you find yourself talking about a book burning, you should probably stop, count to ten, and take a good hard look at yourself) but I don't think it will be their fault if Muslims in another country take offense. I think it will be more of the media's fault for so well publicizing this tiny, idiot church's tiny, idiot idea that people are aware of it.

Shanna said...

2 stories on Yahoo this morning...

1. "WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is exhorting a Florida minister to "listen to those better angels" and call off his plan to engage in a Quran-burning protest this weekend."

and

2. "The imam behind a proposed Islamic community center and mosque near ground zero cautioned Wednesday that moving the facility could cause a violent backlash from Muslim extremists and endanger national security."

I don't really have anything to say because it's all typical. Obama jumping in on every little controversy and exactly on the side we think he will be...and warning that "muslim extremists" will be violent if we do X. Doesn't much matter was X is, does it?

Rumpletweezer said...

The reaction in the West to just the possibility of burning the Koran is illuminating. The West is in full appeasement mode.

Hoosier Daddy said...

and warning that "muslim extremists" will be violent if we do X. Doesn't much matter was X is, does it?

Yep pretty much. I mean it didn't take Koran to be burning, flushed, or a cartoon of Mohammed for them to fly planes into buildings and kill 3000 people or blow up a nightclub in Bali or subways in London or Madrid. Perhaps the Iman needs to bridge that cultural gap with the so called moderates and esplain to them that in the West we have this freedom of expression thing which means we 'tolerate' idiotic acts, even ones we find really offensive. Its that whole 'freedom' thing. Now if those chaps don't 'get' it then I'd say that's they're problem.

Robert Cook said...

"The West is in full appeasement mode."

He said, as the West continues its campaign of mass murder and destruction in lands it invaded without cause.

Fen said...

as the West continues its campaign of mass murder and destruction in lands it invaded without cause.

You left out "illegal unnecessary war over oil" Libtard.

How's Hamas treating you these days? Did they deliver your new washer from the Racheal Corrie?

Lincolntf said...

Funny how now that Obama's President (and he's killing civilians with drone strikes, holding suspects without trial, targeting civilians for execution, extending Patriot Act incursions into our freedoms and sending tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan), the fault of the war lies with the general population of the U.S., not with the President.
Almost like all that hysterical "anti-war" garbage was a stunt that sucked in the stupidest generation in history long enough to get them to elect an utterly incompetent, but ideologically pure, neophyte.

MadisonMan said...

Obama had the skill to get noticed, did he not?

If he had not been elected, I wonder if anyone would still be paying attention to him. I doubt it.

prairie wind said...

Why couldn't POTUS have said something so simple?

Hahaha! That's a rhetorical question, isn't it? In case it isn't, POTUS doesn't know what he thinks as well as Palin knows what she thinks. When your thoughts are clear, it is easier to say things simply.

Palin as president? I'd rather she stay right where she is, posting on Facebook. She is doing what the Republican Party ought to be doing: defining the terms of the debate. On Facebook, she can say what she thinks without any worries. As a candidate, I don't think she'd have that same freedom.

Hoosier Daddy said...

If he had not been elected, I wonder if anyone would still be paying attention to him. I doubt it.

Assuming he retained his Senate seat and voted Present you're probably correct.

Robert Cook said...

"Funny how now that Obama's President (and he's killing civilians with drone strikes, holding suspects without trial, targeting civilians for execution, extending Patriot Act incursions into our freedoms and sending tens of thousands more troops to Afghanistan), the fault of the war lies with the general population of the U.S., not with the President."

No, it's still the fault of the President, (and Congress). Obama is no less a mass murderer and torturer than was Bush, or than Congress has been all along and continues to be.

The public is complicit for supporting the ongoing violence and destruction.

bagoh20 said...

Didn't we hear how all these terrible things would happen if we did Draw Mohammad Day?


"It's hard to get idiots like the people in Florida to understand we're fighting a counterinsurgency war, and stuff like this matters. It don't matter if it's right or wrong-- it's adding to the burden of foreign soldiers and civilians in Afghanistan."

Tell that to the NYT, LAT, etc.

Abu Grab was on the front pages of the NYT for over a month, everyday. Nobody Iraqis got hurt there. During that same time children were being decapitated in front of their parents by Al Qaeda to instill fear and submission in Iraqis. Nobody wanted to bring it up.

The danger to our soldiers is always just an excuse for the left's position, as you can clearly see by when they bring it up.

holdfast said...

This incident really does lay bare the hypocrisy of the leftists who applaud the Piss Christ or Virgin Mary in Dung, and could not care less about the desecration of ancient Jewish holy places in the Judea and Samaria by the local savages, yet have the vapors because some redneck nitwit wants to torch a few WalMart Korans. Clearly they don't love Islam on the merits, they just love that Islamists are willing to do the things that they secretly want to do, but don't have the guts to do, like blowing holes in the sides of US warships and killing US troops with ambushes and IEDs. They so fear and hate America and western civilization that they will sign on with anyone in order to oppose it.

Crimso said...

"No one has yet defined exactly what physical radius is occupied by the holy immanence of ground zero."

I hereby submit for approval for inclusion regarding the term "Ground Zero" any site where the landing gear from one of the planes that hit the WTC came to rest.

Anglelyne said...

Lawler Walken: ...they're afraid of what they don't know and understand so they burn a book.

Me, I've never noticed any positive correlation between "things I don't understand" and "being afraid of them". I have noted I can be frightened by things I understand very well indeed, though.

"To understand all is to fear not at all" is the 21st century version of "to understand all is to forgive all", and just as dopey and mostly false as the original.

I have no idea what's going on in the squirrelly little minds of Rev What's-his-name and his flock (not much, I suspect), but these days I do have a hard time taking seriously all the deep thinkers wringing their hands about other people's alleged irrational, ignorance-driven "fears". It's always teh fear and teh hate. "Other people" being anybody with what I guess can be called "flyover" views on anything.

One of the most amusing/irritating features of the last nine years has been listening to the (mostly male) bug-eyed, cold-sweatin' hysterical old women of the right-thinking class endlessly proclaiming to us how "fearful" we all are of...you name it.


wv: provocus. I kid you not.

Ralph L said...

The public is complicit for supporting the ongoing violence and destruction
Yea! Yea! And don't forget the cruelty.

HDHouse said...

@anglelyne - wow what you said. nice turn of phrase there!

Ralph L said...

HD, I think you misread the last paragraph.

WV - ingous- my toenail

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

The guy who is the principal shareholder said today that he would be happy to sell the site at a substantial profit.

Part of it is owned by a triple net lease that he ownes and he is the prinicpal investor and majority owner of Soho Properties LLC that is the owner of record of the property.

The Imam does not have the dough to buy him out and his source of funding has to be open and aboveboard due to the diligence of the opposition.

So this is going to fizzle out as a real estate scam.

Anglelyne said...

@HDH: Why, um, thank you.

But I have the uneasy suspicion that Ralph L. is correct. (De-coder: "right-thinking" as in "bien pensant", not in "as opposed to left-thinking".)

Trooper York said...

The owner is from Egypt and he can explain it away as a good business deal.

Muslims like everyone else love a good deal. So no outrage will be expressed. I mean if he bought it for 4.5 million and sells it for
18 million as is now being discussed, well no one will have a problem with it at all.

Robert Cook said...

"One of the most amusing/irritating features of the last nine years has been listening to the (mostly male) bug-eyed, cold-sweatin' hysterical old women of the right-thinking class endlessly proclaiming to us how "fearful" we all are of...you name it."

And yet suppositions that Muslims want to destroy our government or intend to see Sharia law imposed in America, or that the Muslim Community Center will be some sort of "sleeper" headquarters for terrorist acts, or is intended to be a act of Islamic Triumpalism, a Muslim "fuck you" to the twin towers and to all who died there and to their families--are not the fever dreams of hysterics and paranoids, of fearful know-nothings?

Ralph L said...

Trooper, who wants to buy it? If he does sell, could this have been his plan all along?

Marshal said...

" Dead Julius said...
WTF? Sarah Palin being sensible and reasonable? Where's the inflammatory rhetoric? Where is the folksy call to action?

Oh, it's Wacky Wednesday. For a few more hours at least. Plz Sarah, be back to y'er Hitlerish usual self in the 'morrow."

So now people who make Hitler accusations lament inflammatory rhetoric <i in the same comment <i. Some things are just unbelievable.

Trooper York said...

RalphL it appears that he got it at a big discount. According to the New York Papers a developer is interested in buying the space for retail.

I used to do the taxes for a bar on lower Broadway that the landlord was trying to get out so they could take up the whole building to do a retail shop in competition with Century 21.

Trooper York said...

You know who would be the perfect tenant to buy the space and stick it up Nanny Bloombergs ass..........Walmart.

Trooper York said...

But that would be too good to be true.

Anglelyne said...

Robert Cook: And yet suppositions ...that the Muslim Community Center...is intended to be a act of Islamic Triumpalism, a Muslim "fuck you" to the twin towers and to all who died there and to their families--are not the fever dreams of hysterics and paranoids, of fearful know-nothings?

No.

Unless by "hysterics, paranoids, and fearful know-nothings" you mean "human beings of ordinary decency and astuteness whose grasp of the fuck obvious hasn't been vitiated by marination in idiotic doctrines during critical cognitive developmental junctures". Then, yes.

Robert Cook said...

I guess we can count Angelyine among the pants-wetting scaredy-cats.

Marshal said...

I guess we can count Robert among the substanceless name callers.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

I for one always appreciate Robert Cooks posts. I look at him as a lodestone for formulating my opinions.

I know I always have to go in entirely the opposite direction.
Just sayn'

Methadras said...

Robert Cook said...

This specious "comparison" of burning Korans and building a Muslim community center is self-serving bullshit, a false equivalency, and further demonstration of and justification for ignorance and bigotry.


Hey Cookie, when did you realize that becoming a traitorous bastard was going to be your way of life? 10 years old? 12? 25? Just curious as to what set you over the edge into bat-shit crazy fifth columnist territory.

jonscharf said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jonscharf said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jonscharf said...

Only people who are so weak in the faith of their own convictions, those that do not believe in the strength of their own ideas, have to burn the ideas of others. We should be more afraid of the people who burn books than the ideas that are in the books that they choose to burn.