August 11, 2010

"Is the 9/11 Mosque a Publicity Stunt?"

Asks David Frum. I got there via Hot Air. Hey! I wrote a post 3 days ago titled "Is the proposal to build a mosque near Ground Zero more political performance than reality?" I was bouncing off the same New York Post story that inspired Frum. Damn! I could have had a Hot Air link. But I decided not to publish my post, because, reading to the end of the story, I saw that although the would-be mosque-builders only owned one of the buildings needed for the project, they did have a lease and an option to purchase  the second building at its assessed value. That is, the path to acquiring the second building looked clear, assuming they could raise the money for the project. So raising the money for the project is the only real difficulty, which is the same thing we thought when it seemed that they already owned both buildings.

So is Frum seeing more than I saw or less?
The mosque developers are three Arab-American businessmen: Sharif and Sammy el-Gamal and Nour Moussa. They have a partner in Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Muslim writer and publicist who does most of the talking. But the money and credit pledged to the project belong to the company owned by Moussa and the el-Gamals, Soho Properties.

Soho Properties has paid some $5 million in cash to buy the Burlington Coat Factory building, a building that yields no income. They are paying rent to hold rights to the Con Ed building, which also yields no income. All of this in the midst of the worst commercial property slump in memory, in an area of New York with a very uncertain economic future....

You can see why the Gamal-Moussa team would be dazzled by the notion that philanthropists in the Persian Gulf might donate $100 million to raise a grand gleaming Islamic center in lower Manhattan. You can tuck a lot of development fees into a $100 million project. And if not a mosque … what else do you do with their two loser properties on Park Place?
Frum thinks the Gamal-Moussa businessmen really did originally intend to build condos, but that wasn't going to work, and they hooked up with Feisal Rauf believing he was the kind of guy who could connect them to guys in the Middle East who'd give them $100 million if they were buttered up in a suitably Islamic way. Is "publicity stunt" the right word for Frum's theory? It sounds more like he thinks it was a hare-brained real estate scheme.
$100 million is not so easily raised, not even in Abu Dhabi, not in the middle of a global commercial property slump, not with the Manhattan real estate market in a shambles. Believe it or not, rich people in the Persian Gulf are not yearning to plunge into a U.S. political controversy.
And, of course, the mosque will never be built. The idea that I tossed aside was different. I entertained the notion that the idea was to propose it in order to stir up the reaction that was, in fact, stirred up. Some Americans would be outraged, including a subgroup that would say anti-Muslism things, and some Americans would get passionate about freedom of religion and celebrating diversity. In this theory, the point was always and only to undermine American society by dividing us in two and touching off a terrible, endless fight between the two halves.  In this theory too, then, the mosque is never built. It's not that the business scheme fails, but that the proposal was itself the project, and the project succeeds.

Will the mosque be built?
Yes.
No, because it's a business scheme that will fail.
No, because it was always only intended to produce a destructive debate.
No, because our protests will cause the developers to abandon the plan voluntarily.
No, because politicians or courts will find a way to stop it.
  
pollcode.com free polls

81 comments:

AllenS said...

New York Gov. David Paterson offered state help Tuesday if the developers of a mosque near the site of the Sept. 11 attacks agree to move the project farther from the site.

How about a brilliant casting of a fishing line and seeing if you can hook a sucker.

HDHouse said...

I suspect quite a few shoes will drop before this is settled......

Seriously, it is now down to an election year "who is a true American" battle that won't let up.

Salamandyr said...

The mosque will be built. It has become a symbol for a certain sort of American, a way to prove to the world that we are sensitive and tolerant, and it's a stick to beat the other sort of American, who thinks that maybe sensitivity and tolerance can be taken too far.

Edgehopper said...

This is what happens when you own Park Place but not Boardwalk.

(couldn't resist)

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

In the end this mosque won't be built, the silver lining is that Mayor Bloomberg will look exactly like the gigantic ass that he is.

Hagar said...

I think prudent Republicans should stand aside and let the Democrats fight this out among themselves - wherever it takes them.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

No.

Because New York City is controlled by the Unions, who are mostly controlled by the Mob who are really quite patriotic. They will not allow the Mosque to be built nor will they work on it themselves.

To think that New York is controlled by the politicians is silly. It is the other way around. The politicians are controlled by the Unions.

Maguro said...

In a lot of respects, this whole mosque project resembles the "Flying Imams" case of a few years ago. An over the top display of Islamic piety deliberately calculated to rile up the non-Muslim population, followed by playing the "oppressed minority group" card against anyone who pushes back. If the project is eventually scotched, Feisal Rauf can then file a huge anti-discrimination lawsuit and collect millions from NYC, making the parallell complete.

Passive-aggressive political activism at its best.

Hoosier Daddy said...

....and it's a stick to beat the other sort of American, who thinks that maybe sensitivity and tolerance can be taken too far.

I think tolerance can only be taken too far when it's a one way street.

If they want to build a mosque, have the proper permits then so be it. I'm consistent in my support of individual property rights. That also doesn't mean that I have to like it in light of the historical meaning of Cordoba to the Muslim world.

Again, it does strike me as rather interesting that the Left has found a group of religious fundamentalists that they can rally around.

Scott M said...

It's not that the business scheme fails, but that the proposal was itself the project, and the project succeeds.

If your project is to create political division on a single issue in one of the largest, most diverse democracies on the planet, I'd say you're playing with the game set somewhere between NOOB and EASY.

c3 said...

I think we just like to fight over what to do with ground zero real estate.

The victims of 9-11 are certainly well-honored by the large hole in the ground.

But I don't live in NYC so I shouldn't talk

Pogo said...

Just last week, two Muslim women from my hometown were named by the FBI for raising funds for an Al Qaeda-related terrorist group in Somalia.

But the intolerance is by those opposing Islamic fascism, apparently.

Scott M said...

Because New York City is controlled by the Unions, who are mostly controlled by the Mob who are really quite patriotic. They will not allow the Mosque to be built nor will they work on it themselves.

I made the comment a few days ago here that I had a friend who was told this very thing by someone in NY who would know. I was told by someone on this blog that this notion is silly because there is no mob in NY. lol

Skyler said...

To think that New York is controlled by the politicians is silly. It is the other way around. The politicians are controlled by the Unions.

And the union members are controlled by a need to feed their families. The mosque will not be stopped for lack of workers to construct it. Builders need jobs and there aren't a lot of them lately.

The funding will come through because this is an offensive in the jihad against us and religious fervor will coax the dollars out of even the poorest of fanatical and even normal muslims. The non-fanatics will see this as a way to attack us without bloodshed.

A.W. said...

remember if you oppose this, you are a bigot against muslims.

i mean unless you notice that some muslims are also opposed to it: http://hotair.com/archives/2010/08/09/canadian-muslim-on-the-ground-zero-mosque-why-would-you-do-such-a-thing/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080603006.html

Also, when Greg Gutfeld suggested putting up a gay strip bar right across the street from the mosque, a spokesman for the mosque said (and i shit you not): "You’re free to open whatever you like. If you won’t consider the sensibilities of Muslims, you’re not going to build dialog"

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/08/10/ground-zero-mosque-spokesman-to-gutfeld-your-gay-bar-wont-build-dialogue-because-it-doesnt-consider-our-sensibilities

This mosque will be seen, and we can believe is intended to be seen, as a victory mosque, declaring victory at the site of the WTC. As a power of war, we are allowed to prevent that.

Almost Ali said...

DBQ:

Graft is the way of political life in NYC, and the union bosses will welcome the Saudi payoffs. So too their members, in overtime, and empty beer cans left inside the walls as tokens of their patriotism.

Trooper York said...

You watch too much TV Scott. The Mob only exists in Terry Winters imagination.

Crime in New York is controlled these days by the Russians and especially the Albanians.

To rely on patriotic gangsters is really a fantasy.

Trooper York said...

This abomination has all of liberal New York behind it. The only way it won't happen is if blue collar New York pushes back hard enough and I doubt that is going to happen.

In Barack Obama's economy it is just too hard to make a living.

And they won't use union workers. They will use illegal Mexican workers like just about every job done in NYC these days. The unions will just take the pay-offs.

Scott M said...

You watch too much TV Scott. The Mob only exists in Terry Winters imagination.

I actually watch very little tv anymore as it's mostly crap. Short of a pending Google search, I don't know who Terry Winters is. I can take it at face value that you know what you're talking about in regards to Russians controlling all crime in NY simply because I don't know otherwise.

My friends in NY, on the other hand...

Trooper York said...

The murdering barbarians will be able to dance for joy on the graves of 3000 Americans.

Trooper York said...

The Italian Mob is a spent force.
The biggest hit man in the 1970's who was a top Colombo capo gets pushed out of the way by yuppies with baby carriages on Court St these days.

Their time has come and gone.

New ethnic groups are killing and dealing drugs these days. And they don't give a rats ass about America except as a place to steal.

Hoosier Daddy said...

remember if you oppose this, you are a bigot against muslims.

I'm intrigued by the accusations of bigotry by the very same folks who hold less than stellar views of Christians. What is even more intriguing is that you can bigotry can be applied toward someone who holds a dislike a particular set of beliefs. Unlike ethnicity or skin color, we choose our beliefs. The idea that one can be 'bigoted' toward a certain set of beliefs is quite laughable actually.

So I would be safe to refer to those on the Left who refer to evangelical Christians as 'Jesus Freak's to be bigots? Or those who celebrate derogatory art toward Christianity to be insensitive bigots? I guess that makes atheists the biggest bigots of them all no?

tooclass said...

It's not a mosque, anymore than the YMCA is a church or the 92nd Street Y is a Synagogue. Read Hitchens' latest piece at slate. We are so incompetent that we still have a GIANT hole in the ground almost 10 years later. It's pathetic really. and yes, i live in NYC.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

To rely on patriotic gangsters is really a fantasy

Damn. There you go...bursting my fantasy island bubble.

Didn't the Muslim group get offered another property on which to build their 'cultural center'?

What does that tell us if they refuse to take the offer.

Trooper York said...

I always thought your fantasy was some sexy plumber unclogging your pipes DBQ?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I always thought your fantasy was some sexy plumber unclogging your pipes DBQ

No. That is reality.

:-P

A.W. said...

Hoosier

I think you get this, but let me be clear anyway. i was being ironic when i said everyone who opposes this is a bigot, especially given that i oppose it and actually believe we can legally block them from doing it.

I think you understood me, but i wanted to be sure.

Fred4Pres said...

I hope it is not built, but I think Frum (who may be right on the motives) is wrong on the desire to fund this.

Oh yeah, Ramadan Kareem.

A.W. said...

DBQ

There are 30 mosques in manhattan alone. they have been explicit from the beginning, this is about ground zero. they even state that this is a spot where debris fell and they wanted that land for that reason. their argument goes like this, "what better place to build interfaith dialogue." i don't buy it, but fwiw...

Scott M said...

It's not a mosque, anymore than the YMCA is a church or the 92nd Street Y is a Synagogue. Read Hitchens' latest piece at slate. We are so incompetent that we still have a GIANT hole in the ground almost 10 years later. It's pathetic really. and yes, i live in NYC.

Yes, truly. Pathetic. We should be at least five years into rebuilding completely modern versions of the same two buildings. Nothing would show the world American resilience more.

On the other hand, the last time I poked my head and looked around, the design team working on the architectural plans was from Germany. Are we so pathetic that we don't have a firm within our own borders that is up to this job? Is that not a canary in the mineshaft?

Hoosier Daddy said...

I think you get this, but let me be clear anyway. i was being ironic when i said everyone who opposes this is a bigot,

No I understood where you were coming from. I was just commenting on the whole theme that any criticism of Islam is akin to bigotry. The irony that the accusation comes from those who show nothing but disdain for Christianity is a bit rich too.

I simply contend that bigotry doesn't extend to beliefs, religious or secular.

Scott M said...

I simply contend that bigotry doesn't extend to beliefs, religious or secular.

Without waxing too terribly philosophical, I'm not entirely convinced that beliefs are choices.

downtownlad said...

No mosque was ever even proposed. So of course a mosque won't be built. It's a community center with a prayer room.

Anyway, if you actually read real newspapers, like the New York Times - instead of the Post - you will learn that it must have been some hoax - since the ideas for this community center go back to 1999.

And now it's the "9/11 Mosque"? Yeah - and we're supposed to believe there's no bigotry going on here. Yeah right.

downtownlad said...

Here's the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/nyregion/11mosque.html?_r=1&hp

downtownlad said...

I call bullshit on Tooclass when he says he lives in New York City.

1 World Trade Center is now more than 350 tall. One year from now, it will be one of the 10 tallest buildings in New York City. That's not a "giant hole in the Ground". WTC Tower #4 is now starting to go up quickly as well. WTC #7 has been built and occupied for years. The 9/11 memorial will be taking visitors a year from now.

A.W. said...

Downtowntard

> No mosque was ever even proposed

Wow, I have been calling downtownlad “downtowntard” for a while, but I didn’t think he would live up to his name so thoroughly. Since you believe the NYT is the most trustworthy paper in america (trying hard not to laugh at that one), let me quote from YOUR OWN ARTICLE: “The future of the center — organizers say it will have a mosque, but its 15 floors will be mainly for other functions — has become grist for talk radio, cable television and election fights across the country.”

Idiot.

Dead Julius said...

Build it, or don't build it-- I don't care either way.

It's only a symbolic thing. The mosque do absolutely nothing to affect the daily lives of nearly all of the people there.

But it is red meat for bloggers and pundits and especially politicians, all of whom accept the notion that any little thing anywhere in the country cannot proceed without their approval.

Lem said...

dtl.. first off.. good to see you again..

Here is a good rule of thumb.

If Muslims are involved?..

its a Mosque.

If an Iman is raising money to build it and taxpayers are footing the junket?

its a Mosque.

If they are fighting this hard to have it.. and to have there.

its a Mosque.

lemondog said...

Sounds like capitalism at work. Entrepreneurs looking to make some big money, one way or the other.

In this theory, the point was always and only to undermine American society by dividing us in two and touching off a terrible, endless fight between the two halves.

Who is doing this particular undermining? Foreign powers, Islamists, internal agitators?

Haven't we always had 'endless' fights, some resolved to varying degrees, other not, e.g., limited vs expanded government, taxes, free speech, wars, race, women rights, abortion, gay rights.

Is not this a part of Democracy?

Lem said...

When Mr Crowley announced the trip at the daily State Department briefing, he described Imam Feisal as a moderate who has already made two similar government-sponsored trips to Arab and Muslim countries.

Yes,

This will be the third time Obama has sent the Iman fund raising for his Mosque... the ground zero mosque.

Obama is using taxpayer money to help build the dam thing.

Texan99 said...

How can debate be destructive when (1) it's fun and (2) it exposes idiots and (3) it cheers up people who'd begun to wonder if there was anyone left with any balls?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Without waxing too terribly philosophical, I'm not entirely convinced that beliefs are choices.

What else can they be then?

Palladian said...

Gosh, I hate to have to say it, but downtownlad is right. There's not a "giant hole in the ground" down there. Building on that site, while obviously politically complicated, is also a gigantic engineering challenge.

Here's the site as of July 28, 2010. The building with the blue netting on top is One World Trade Center, and is now beyond floor 32 in height.

Lem said...

Palladian when times are bad in the construction industry, and they are really bad now.. Contractors have been known to try and make a career out of one project.. and it just so happens (to slow it down some more) this is the biggest one going.

Lem said...

unless a building boom comes they are going to take their sweet time.

The Crack Emcee said...

"Discrimination" is my theme today:

They can raise money to build a mosque at Ground Zero.

There's talk of raising money to build a gay bar next door to it.

They're raising money for Jet Blue's belligerent gay flight attendent.

But the belligerent straight black guy, with no family, suffering under all kinds of issues - some involving religion and gays - he gets ridicule.

It all makes perfect sense. Yep - there's a clear through-line there. My heart bleeds for everyone else as I soldier on.

edutcher said...

I say, "No" , because the Jewish lobby (it exists and not all of it in in NY), the lay Catholics (the majority of the police and firemen who died on 9/11), the politicians worried about how they will look, and all the outside-NY patriotic groups will send this into the courts and it will die there.

Trooper York said...

I always thought your fantasy was some sexy plumber unclogging your pipes DBQ?

She wants to see your cleavage the first time you bend over.

AllenS said...

Man up.

Palladian said...

Here is the site on 23 September, 2001, showing the positions of the buildings that once stood there. A lot of progress has been made. Obviously not without a lot of politics and delays, but it's not a "hole in the ground" anymore.

lemondog said...

According to Bill Warner, private eye, appears the El-Gamal's were waiting tables in 2002. So where did they get all the bread to buy these properties?

background

background

Wiki on Feisal Abdul Rauf He wants an "American Culpa" speech from the US president.

Has Obama fulfilled that request?

ricpic said...

The mosque will be built because our elites are devoid of a sense of pride in their own civilization. The standard answer to that is that they take pride in our tolerance. But tolerance for those who have made no bones about wanting to destroy you is simply the cowardice of our hollowed out elite.

Scott M said...

Without waxing too terribly philosophical, I'm not entirely convinced that beliefs are choices.

What else can they be then?

Empirical truths are forced on us. Ice is cold. Fire is hot. Put two things with two more things and you get four. There's no choosing whether or not to belief those things. In the realm of religion, however, it seems to me that some theology or set of beliefs appeal to you at something other than a conscious level. There's a gut reaction to it. You can choose to adhere to the requirements of your faith, but the beliefs underpinning that decision seem to be an inherent or "gut" sort of thing.

I suppose choosing religious beliefs would be akin to choosing that you're in love. It doesn't seem to make sense.

Hoosier Daddy said...

In the realm of religion, however, it seems to me that some theology or set of beliefs appeal to you at something other than a conscious level. There's a gut reaction to it. You can choose to adhere to the requirements of your faith, but the beliefs underpinning that decision seem to be an inherent or "gut" sort of thing.

I can see that. I suppose that gut reaction is what many need to be able to explain away all the unexplainable. ‘It’s God’s will’ and all that.

The Crack Emcee said...

Scott M,

"It doesn't seem to make sense."

You win The Crack Emcee's "Understatement of the Day" award.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I suppose choosing religious beliefs would be akin to choosing that you're in love. It doesn't seem to make sense.

Of course it does. We choose the one we eventually want to be with. I think the process of choosing who that will be is called dating. ;-)

Scott M said...

I suppose choosing religious beliefs would be akin to choosing that you're in love. It doesn't seem to make sense.

Of course it does. We choose the one we eventually want to be with. I think the process of choosing who that will be is called dating. ;-)

If you found yourself in the unenviable position of actually being in love with two people and having to choose which to marry, the choice would certainly be a conscious one. However, the proceeding feelings for those two that got you to that point would not have been choices.

A.W. said...

Hoosier

> I simply contend that bigotry doesn't extend to beliefs, religious or secular.

I don’t know. its self-evident that there is religious bigotry in the world. I mean last I heard there was a show in Palestine called “Pioneers of Tomorrow” featuring a giant rabbit that ate jews. No, that is not a typo. He claimed to eat jews. And this was a kid’s show.

Memri always has a lot on that: http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3213.htm

I think the sticking point is that there are genuine differences between, say, a Christian and a jew, namely I believe one thing and a jew believes something else. And I can disagree significantly with what they believe and not be a dick about it.

I think the metaphor to draw is almost to handicaps, although I admit that sounds weird at first blush. For instance, I talked a bunch of times in this site about Thaddeus Stevens who wrote the original draft of the 14th Amendment. He was handicapped, had a thing called a clubbed foot. And as a result many believed that this was a sign he was the child of the devil and literally hated him for it. they could call his foot a “cloven foot.” That seems self-evidently bigotry. While of course there is a real difference between him and “normal” people, the hatred was not justified by that difference.

(and its not as strange as it might seem to equate disabilities with religion, given that the law of discrimination says you must provide reasonable accommodations for both religious practices and handicaps. Religious practices can be seen as a voluntarily adopted handicap, preventing you from eating certain foods at certain times, or working on certain days.)

Scott M.

> Without waxing too terribly philosophical, I'm not entirely convinced that beliefs are choices.

Um, yes, Virginia there is such a thing as a convert. But I guess they didn’t chose to convert they were predestined or some crap like that.

Well, short of that, it is self evident we can choose our faith. And irrelevant. The choice of belief is privileged in our constitutional system.

c3 said...

since I first used the phrase "hole in the ground" I appreciate Palladian's clarification and picture.

So it appears nine years later the hole is smaller.

I'm sticking to my point that we love to argue over ground zero.

DTL;
I read the same article and was therefore surprised when you stated a mosque was never planned. The plans for a mosque was clearly stated in the article.

I would say the article confirmed my initial impression:

At best well intentioned

And again referring to the article, how would building essentially a YMCA with lots of space for "strollers" lead to reconciliation and understanding?

HDHouse said...

take a look at the 92nd street Y in nyc if you want what is a religiously sponsored building doing good work for all.

Hagar said...

The "mosque" site is 2 or 3 blocks away - depending on who is counting? - in the middle of the block and facing away. There is no line of sight to Ground Zero.

This project would have been quite unremarkable until someone called attention to it. Maybe it is just one of those things, but I think there is a bit of an aroma in the air, and we should wait and see what more may come to light before we jump to concussions.

A.W. said...

HDH

That's a tad disingenous. the founder has been crystal clear that the site was picked because debris from 9-11 fell there. his stated goal all along was to send a message of peace and love over 9-11 and so on. whether he is sincere in that is another matter. and even if he is sincere, it still sends the wrong message to our enemies.

Fred4Pres said...

Well you managed to get your Hot Air link too. Can't let David Frum have all the fun.

NahnCee said...

I don't think it will be built. But I really don't care if it is, since I'm very much looking forward to having a gay bar, a kosher delicatessen, and a school for girls immediately spring up alongside and next door to it.

Youngblood said...

"No mosque was ever even proposed. So of course a mosque won't be built. It's a community center with a prayer room."

A prayer room that's going to have space for 1,000 to 2,000 worshippers for regularly scheduled prayer services.

What do you know about Islam, Downtownlad? What is a mosque, exactly? What makes a mosque a mosque? Do you even know where to look to find the answer to that question?

Epiphyte - said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Epiphyte - said...

Downtownlad:

"No mosque was ever even proposed. So of course a mosque won't be built. It's a community center with a prayer room."

Will MUSLIMS be praying at the "prayer room ". . . ?

.. . Because there are certain prerequisites that must be met in order for muslims to pray in the "prayer room."

First, there needs to be a Qibla marker (for Meccan orientation), so that they will be praying in the correct direction. (NOT NEGOTIABLE - trust me on this).

Second, there must be a place for ritual ablutions - because the ritual cleansing is a prerequisite prior to prayer (also non-negotiable.)

Third, there will have to be gender segregation and forced veiling - because women, especially uncovered women, disrupt and cancel out your prayers and must be located behind and out of sight (lest one end up bowing in the direction of an upturned woman's derrier - Oops! Prayer canceled, have to start all over again with ritual cleansing).

Fourth . . Okay this may sound weird, but where's the plumbing located? Is there a rest room on every floor? Because it would be highly inappropriate to place a ritually pure and important place beneath any plumbing (considering what's inside those pipes . . . )

So, by process of deduction, I can state with near certainty that your "prayer room" will be located on the top floor of the center looking down, oriented towards Mecca, with ritual ablutions, forced veiling and gender segregation. . . Why? Because the "prayer room" is a MOSQUE.

8/11/10 4:40 PM

Paul said...

Practically speaking, what do you conservative opponents of the project wish to regulate?

-the right of private property owners to use their private property in the manner they see fit?

-the right of non-Christians to freely exercise their relgion?

-or the right of the developers to make an unpopular political statement?

Just where to you want to exercise state control here and on what basis?

Is the conservative-liberal division really nothing more than a stupid culture war?

Hoosier Daddy said...

I mean last I heard there was a show in Palestine called “Pioneers of Tomorrow” featuring a giant rabbit that ate jews. No, that is not a typo. He claimed to eat jews. And this was a kid’s show.

Being a Jew doesn't necessarily denote a religious belief. I'm not sure whether Daniel Pearl was a practicing Jew but I'm betting that the Muslims who chopped his head off didn't take it into consideration on way or another.

I think the sticking point is that there are genuine differences between, say, a Christian and a jew, namely I believe one thing and a jew believes something else. And I can disagree significantly with what they believe and not be a dick about it.

Didn't say one had to be a dick about it although I don't consider being a dick about someone's beliefs to be bigotry either. I think Scientologists, Wiccans and Druidism are wacky as a 3 dollar bill too.

Youngblood said...

Paul wrote:

"Practically speaking, what do you conservative opponents of the project wish to regulate?"

How about you, do you still beat your wife?

Talk about your loaded questions!

From what I have seen and heard, very few of the people who oppose the construction of the mosque want the government to step in to stop it.

Also, instead of directing the question at Conservatives specifically, you might want to also ask the 45% of self-identified Liberals and 61% of Moderates who oppose the Ground Zero mosque. (According to the latest CNN/Opinion Research poll.)

Paul said...

@Youngblood - My question was directed to the conservatives who oppose the project, because it is conservatives who are leading the charge (Palin & Gingrich) and it is conservatives who are supposed to support property rights and free exercise of religion.

If opponents are not actually asking the government to stop this, then there is no point in debating the issue. We may be upset, but there can be no public policy to debate if public action can't be invoked.

JAL said...

According to recent news the imam is on a goodwill trip to the ME funded by the US State Dept. He has done 2 of these before.

Of course his people gave Claudia Rosette the run around on all this. (Why?)

The article I read said that he could not fund raise for the mosque on this trip.

And HOW exactly is the State Department going to monitor that? What is their means of accountability?

As soon as he was connected with the Cordoba Initiative MOSQUE the State Dept should have terminated the planned visits. Church and state and all that. Appearance of impropriety and all that.

Who thinks these things up?

Seven Machos said...

I really don't have a problem with a mosque there. As people have pointed out to me, and I do agree, it does seem a little tasteless. But so what? It's not like it's some kind of Trojan Horse out of which some Muslim army will pour into Manhattan. A symbolic Trojan Horse is no real Trojan Horse.

Another thing people have pointed out to me, that I don't agree with, is the fact that no Christian entrepreneur could build a Christian church in downtown Riyadh. To which I say: no shit, and that's one of the millions and millions of things that makes the United States so fucking awesome and Saudi Arabia such a piss-poor shit hole of an excuse for a nation. What? You want to emulate them?

Let the Muslims have their mosque. We are strong enough for that. We believe in our credo enough for that.

If any Islamic terrorist groups attempt to do anything to the interests of the United States, we'll do to them and to people who support them what we did to the Native Americans, and the Germans, and the Japanese, and every other group that dared cross us.

Seven Machos said...

JAL -- What is the impropriety? What is the freedom of religion issue?

Also, having worked for the monolith that is the State Department, I can assure you that it is truly laughable that Claudia Rosette called "the State Department" demanding answers. That's a schtick of hers, actually, and she knows full well that is going to get stonewalled before she picks up the phone.

JAL said...

From the Cordoba Initiative webpage:

(They incorporated in Aspen, CO, BTW.)

Thought:
Providing expert knowledge of Islamic Law and other technical subjects for use in the public square

Action:
Building a network of young Muslim leaders to lead the drive for change in future generations

...

Advocating for human rights, including higher standards for the treatment of women

Outcome:
Raising the bar of Islamic governance in Muslim-majority countries


Thoughts? Comments?

What does Sharia say about infidels? Anything?

Seven Machos said...

What does Sharia say about infidels?

What does the Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition say about Muslims and Jews? What do the counties of Essex, Suffolk, and Middlesex say about witchcraft?

You are under the utterly false and dangerous belief that some large percentage of Muslims anywhere support Sharia law.

A.W. said...

and now iranian connections to the mosque.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/an-iranian-connection-to-the-cordoba-house-ground-zero-mosque/

JAL said...

Just a reminder, 7 --

From The Cordoba Initiative "What We Do" page --

The Shariah Index Project seeks to address the religion-politics relationship question that has racked the Muslim World since the death of the Prophet Muhammad. A contentious issue between religious Islamic political and secular political parties within the Muslim World, and between Muslim and Western nations (for whom Church-State separation is a foundational concept), it evolves around the right balance between institutions of political power and authority and institutions of religious power and authority, and whether the modern nation state Muslims live in should be a secular or religious (i.e. Islamic) State?

After two years of work, the Sharia Index Project’s working team of Sunni and Shi’a legal scholars from Morocco to Indonesia achieved consensus on a final structure on philosophy, methodology, and approach to providing the general public, opinion leaders, and state officials in both the Muslim and Western worlds with an Islamic legal benchmark for measuring “Islamicity” of a state.
....

And the imam himself "it is clear an Islamic state can be established in more than just a single form or mold. It can be established through a kingdom or a democracy. The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of Sharia that are required to govern. [emphasis added]

Not to mention that roughly 50% of the Muslims have no say in whether they want Sharia law or not.

Seven Machos said...

The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of Sharia that are required to govern.

Please consider this statement armed with the following thought: Sharia is not all about stoning and chopping off hands any more than Leviticus is all about staying away from menstruating women.

Let's be clear: I am a Jacksonian who wants to kill anything that perils America. I love American hegemony. But you have this idea in your head that all Muslims are bad and that Islam is evil. It's simply not true. It's complete and total bullshit. Next time you want to bash "Islam," test it out by substituting "international Jewry." If it sounds bad, consider that perhaps you are overstating your case.

amba said...

In this theory, the point was always and only to undermine American society by dividing us in two and touching off a terrible, endless fight between the two halves.

Like we needed some Muslims to come along and do that?? Too little, too late!

amba said...

A.W.

Comparison between religion and a handicap is very interesting.

eurofighter69 said...

They should ban all places of worships , strip bars, mcdonalds , starbuck, toilets from the 9/11 vacinity.

Instead only memorials are allowed to be built , and flowers shops.