June 2, 2010

"The propaganda for the flotilla has been in the works for months. Most of it was simply false...."

"Who is behind this overhyped mission of mercy? And who is its beneficiary? It is none other than Hamas, the Gazan outpost of the global jihad, cousin of the Taliban, second cousin once-removed of Hezbollah.... The law is on Israel’s side. Ethics and history are on Israel’s side. Those who are on the side of Hamas are actually enemies of civilization."

ADDED: David Harsanyi:
[U]nlike the typical "humanitarian" aid vessels, these were filled with violent activists rather than the normal caches of weaponry.

[R]ather than allow an Israeli search for armaments — a blockade necessitated by Hamas rockets falling on Israel daily — the mob, chanting songs about invading Israel, attacked those who boarded with sharpened iron bars, poles, rifles and clubs.

Before boats were boarded, Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, whose Jew-hating would make Himmler proud, already had said, "If ships reach Gaza — victory. If terrorized by Zionists — victory."

Using civilians as human shields, stocking weapons in schools, mosques and boats, and relying on death and martyrdom as forms of depraved propaganda is the game plan.

197 comments:

TMink said...

Of course it is Hamas. The number of lies reveal their father.
Trey

Dead Julius said...

Ah, the lovely smell of rationalization in the morning. Goes great with coffee.

Here's how I think conservatives are thinking:

Supporting Israel is part of our political platform. This raid of an aid flotilla looks terrible to the common everyday non-political person. Therefore we have to dig deep in the law and put our little hamsters to use so that we can spin this into something that won't cause us political damage. After all, political power is much more important than right or wrong, or even life and death.

And it's "international" law too! I thought conservatives didn't believe in international law?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Here's how I think conservatives are thinking:

That explains the smoke coming out of your ears.

MikeDC said...

Yes, it was a propaganda trap. But one which the Israelis walked into with eyes wide shut.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I really wonder when Hamas, Hezbollah, the Iranians, Arab media openly talk about the destruction of Israel and driving the Jews into the sea what Western liberals are hearing? Is there some reason that openly calling for genocide doesn't engender a sense of outrage among so called progressives or are the Israelis exempt?

Triangle Man said...

Why is this group of blockade runners being called a flotilla? Six vessels operating together would be a squadron. Does flotilla evoke a more sympathetic image? A rag-tag fugitive fleet on a quest for a shining planet?

kent said...

Here's how I think

Oh, it's more than plain enough, I assure you.

garage mahal said...

What ever Israel thinks is right. They may have been trying to smuggle in something Israel has banned the Gazans from having. Like musical instruments, fishing rods, or fabric to make clothes.

Ann Althouse said...

@Triangle Man The word "flotilla" actually denotes warships, but it does look rather sweet, like a girl's name. Don't name the baby Flotilla.

edutcher said...

Astounding how craven fear makes such ideological slaves of the Lefties. Back when there were liberals (50 years ago), they were Israel's greatest defenders. I guess gutlessness is part of the difference between a true liberal and a Lefty.

The line, "Those who are on the side of Hamas are actually enemies of civilization.", shouldn't even need to be written. These cutthroats have been showing the world their true nature since the attacks on Ma'alot and Kiryat Sh'mona.

spongeworthy said...

Don't name the baby Flotilla.

Like that huge freaking SUV called Armada. Who are the ad wizards...?

Garage, if your problem is with the blockade you should have been speaking up all along. Otherwise it just looks like your list of proscripted non-essentials is just you taking the opportunity to pile on Israel after this disaster.

Which would be a dick move.

Firehand said...

Well, let's see, Julius... if the Israelis let them through, they set a precedent that leads to smuggling of all kinds of contraband. If they stop them, people like you crap all over them. I think they finally decided "The EU and UN and left are going to dump on us no matter what, so we ought to say to hell with them and do what's needed."

The fact that, knowing the kind of people they were dealing with, they still sent the troops in with friggin' paintball guns shows that they were still trying to play nice with people who want Israel destroyed; I hope they get over that.

Dead Julius said...

@Firehand- Oh, I don't fault Israel. It was a difficult decision. Plus they're probably still pissed off at Hadrian.

The problem I have is with the American politicians and pundits. They must all spin. Even Althouse is spinning now.

Althouse mentioned this whole thing pretty late, and I was quietly hoping that she would just ignore it all. It's too much of a show for public consumption, from both the Israeli and Gaza sides. Like Global Thermonuclear War in Wargames, the only way to win is not to play.

Fred4Pres said...

Andrew Sullivan will find a way to make it all right for Obama and all bad for the Zionist Neocon Jews.

Love will find a way.

Lisa said...

It is always amazing to me how fast the world is to condemn in the harshest of words Israel's response to violence.

Unfortunately, Israel is much slower to defend itself in the court of public opinion. It took too long to get the videos out of its naval forces assaulted by those on board (I refuse to call them peace activists or protesters, they came itching for a fight).

Lisa said...

Please note that Israel offered to allow the ships to unload their goods at Ashdod, to have them inspected and then passed along to UNWRA by land.

They said no.

This was not about a non-existent humanitarian crisis.

MadisonMan said...

What Lisa said.

It's very interesting to hear the American Puppets involved in this on the radio. Talk about Manufactured Outrage.

garage mahal said...

They came itching for a fight against the might of Israel's Navy........with baseball bats?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Well for me, when the rhetoric of Hamas, Hezbollah and Arab media in general concerning Israel and Jews is indistiguishable from the Nazi Party I am quite comfortable in taking Israel's side when it comes to thier defense.

Hoosier Daddy said...

They came itching for a fight against the might of Israel's Navy........with baseball bats?

Seriously garage, have actually read the account of the blockade and what transpired or are you deliberately trying to look like an idiot?

kent said...

Video: Flotilla passengers threw stun grenades before troops boarded

Triangle Man said...

They came itching for a fight against the might of Israel's Navy........with baseball bats?


Don't be abzurd.

Jason said...

Everyone on board should have been turned into a pink mist the second that grenade exploded.

Chef Mojo said...

Yeah Garage. Baseball bats. Against Israelis armed with paintguns and sidearms which they were forbidden to use until operation's CO ordered them to when the terrorists started shooting at them with those baseball bats. Check the vids, Garage. Look at the nice terrorists with the baseball bats. Half dozen of them whaling away on the evil Israeli. I'm sure that was a walk in the park, right? I mean, they're just baseball bats, right?

Garage, you disgust me. You are quite simply evil scum for attempting to rationalize this in favor of the terrorists. Well, I'm sure Cedarford will be along in awhile to give you the validation you seek.

Don't forget to wipe your chin when you're finished.

wv: unsie - special garment for castrati tools like Garage...

Richard Dolan said...

People like to think that endless wars, like that of the Spanish Succession or the 100 Years War, are things of the past. But we are well past the sixtieth year of the war of the Israeli Homeland, with no end in sight and no way forward between irreconcilable positions. The war objective for Hamas and its sponsors is the extinction of Israel; for them no peace is possible while Israel survives. On that point, there is no real difference between Hamas and its enemies among the Palestinians. For the Israelis, national survival and national identity as a distinctively Jewish state are not negotiable.

And so the war just goes on, and is fought on every available front. The "aid flotilla" was just this week's episode, another tactical move in the endless war.

Roger J. said...

Flotilla--Ruyard Kipling the road to mandalay where the old flotilla lay and the dawn comes up like thunder out of China cross the bay. Great word in Kipling; puffery in the case of a bunch of hamas thugs and their useful idiots.

I doubt if the Israelis really give a shit about "world opinion," otherwise they wouldnt have a squadron of nuclear armed subs off Iran.

Now, Dead Julius--perhaps it isnt the Roman Emperor Hadrian the Jews remember so much as the ever so supportive Europeans in the 1930s and 40s--you really cant be that stupid can you?

As for the international law proposition, the Israelis are clearly acting legally under international law, although frankly international law is only a club to use on the israelis--when it comes to existensial survival international law is only something used by the victors to justify retribution on the losers--

An historical note, I thought Vespatian was the Roman Emperor when the Jewish revolt was put down.

William said...

I can imagine a Predator missile going off course and killing innocent people. I can also imagine many more people being blown up by Taliban types if we ceased the Predator program.....I think it is fair to say that the Israelis botched this mission, but it is also fair to say that this mission was necessary.

Hoosier Daddy said...

For the Israelis, national survival and national identity as a distinctively Jewish state are not negotiable.

Well for any country that isn't embracing all out national suicide, national survival and national identity should never be negotiable.

Lisa said...

Garage Mahal,

They had baseball bats, knifes, large pipes, stun granades, and at least one fire bomb... at the very least.

Yes, they wanted a fight.

They sang about killing the Jews before they left port.

Ger said...

@althouse:"The word "flotilla" actually denotes warships..."

That is one of its definitions certainly. However, the word is in much wider use to denote a generic group of small craft or vehicles.

For instance, the US Coast Guard Auxiliary has dozens of groups of civilian volunteers organized and known formally as "Flotillas". There are even a couple USCGA Flotillas in Wisconsin.

Yacht clubs also often use the term flotilla to refer to their "fleet".

I'm sure some would prefer to use the term flotilla in regards to the recent Israeli attack on aid ships to convey a sense of Israel defending itself against a fleet of "warships".

Doesn't appear to me though that most folks are buying into that.

Chef Mojo said...

The way I look at it, the Israelis should sink those ships when they enter the blockade zone, along with any naval escorts the Turks care to send. The Israelis are gonna get screwed on the deal anyway, so they might as well go ahead and drown some terrorists. I mean, it's not like their press can get any worse.

HKatz said...

Some of the most illuminating reports on the flotilla have been from Arab media.

Here is a compilation from various Arab media sources on various flotilla participants:
(because MEMRI - the Middle East Media Research Institute - has been having server issues, I found a website that had cut and pasted their latest report):
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/arab-media-reports-on-flotilla-participants-writing-wills-preparing-for-martyrdom-determined-to-r/blog-338117/#comments

These people would be insulted to be called peace activists - they consider themselves warriors and willing martyrs - and read about their goals: death and banishment for the Jews (and, depending on the organization they represent, the toppling of Arab governments like Egypt's Hosni Mubarak).


And al-Jazeera reporting:
"Gaza flotilla participants chanted Islamic battle cry invoking killing of Jews"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk

And there are other T.V. interviews in which they and their supporters explicitly say that the blockade is preventing the delivery of weapons for the grand fight (it's not about food and supplies - on a given week, tons of that goes through Israel to Gaza).

So... all this information on Arab media (certainly not part of the Israeli propaganda machine). Ironically, the western media will by and large report on none of this at all.

Hoosier Daddy said...

An historical note, I thought Vespatian was the Roman Emperor when the Jewish revolt was put down.

You are correct. His son, Titus (I kid you not) led the Roman army in putting down the revolt and taking Jerusalem.

Roger J. said...

HD--you are going to make me reread Tacitus--Hadrian, IIRC, was one of the five good emperors, although as Tacitus reminds us, the created a waste land and called it a peace.

dbp said...

Israel will be blamed no matter what they do, so they need to take off the kid-gloves when dealing with their enemies.

Send a shot across the bow as the ship approaches territorial waters, then sink it as soon as it violates Israel's waters.

ElcubanitoKC said...

Yes, indeed, it was Titus who ordered the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, although Dead Julius also has a point. It was Hadrian who ordered Jerusalem razed in 135 AD, or one of his generals anyway.

In any case, I would also like to note that during CNN's coverage of the "Turkish outrage", all the men interviewed looked like bearded fundies, and all the women (separated from the men) wore hijabs. In a country like Turkey, this is significant even after the wave of islamization the country has suffered in the past few years. Significant as well were the professionally printed signs in English that the mob was carrying. I man, this was supposed to be mere hours after the boarding on the ship, and they were ready. Surprising efficiency that somehow they fail to display in any other way...

And finally, garage, you haven't obviously read what Israel does with the supplies it confiscates at the blockade, and the thousands of tons of food and other supplies that cross into Gaza from Israel each week. Have you?

Look, here is a slide show of markets in Gaza today, after the blockade started:

http://libertaddigital.com/multimedia/galerias/mercado-en-gaza/

Roger J. said...

dbq: If I understand the maritime laws and international law, the Israelis do not have to wait until a ship violating a blockade crosses into national waters--they can be sunk on the high seas.

Roger J. said...

Cubanito--agree--my comment was directed at the first Jewish war--other revolts ensued after Masada, and it was indeed under Hadrian's emperorship that Jerusalem was razed and the disaspora commenced.

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
HKatz said...

It looks like MEMRI is back up for now (though still a little slow):

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4265.htm

Here is what I was linking to indirectly in my above post, about Arab media outlets' reports on various flotilla participants and "delegates" (who consider themselves not peace activists, but warriors against the Jews).

Ironic - how we see this emerge on networks such as al-Jazeera and other outlets, but not reported in the western media.

(MEMRI, by the way, is a great site - translating news, T.V. clips, and newspaper and magazine articles from Middle Eastern media into English).

ElcubanitoKC said...

Understood, Roger J

wv - suphulag...

Hoosier Daddy said...

I wonder if anyone remembers what happened when Israeli pulled out of Gaza and then Hamas took over?

Bad day to be Fatah.

Roger J. said...

And an apology to Dead Julius re his remark on Hadrian--He's on solid historical ground.

garage mahal said...

Garage, you disgust me. You are quite simply evil scum for attempting to rationalize this in favor of the terrorists

If you didn't know the names of the two parties here, it would be impossible to discern who were the terrorists.

Trooper York said...

It's funny how Nazi gets thrown around all over these threads and when you get these Hama's knuckleheads who want to kill all the Jews and are the closest thing we have to real Nazi's are involved the usual suspects are voting present or are on their side.

It just goes to show you.

edutcher said...

Ann Althouse said...

@Triangle Man The word "flotilla" actually denotes warships, but it does look rather sweet, like a girl's name. Don't name the baby Flotilla.

One of Jimmy Hatlo's housewives in, "They'll Do It Every Time". Often heard conversing over the backyard fence with her neighbor, Stiletta.

Roger J. said...

Flotilla--Ruyard Kipling the road to mandalay where the old flotilla lay and the dawn comes up like thunder out of China cross the bay. Great word in Kipling; puffery in the case of a bunch of hamas thugs and their useful idiots.

Come ye back to Mandalay
Where the old flotilla lay
Can't you hear their paddles chunking
From Rangoon to Mandalay

O, the road to Mandalay
Where the flying fishes play
And the dawn comes up like thunder
Outer China 'crost the bay

And also Gaza

Chef Mojo said...

If you didn't know the names of the two parties here, it would be impossible to discern who were the terrorists.

Really, garage? Really? Are you that morally vacant? A culture of genocidal maniacs whose sole purpose is to destroy the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, and you need to "know the names" in order to tell the difference? You're prepared to stand up for Islamofascists who openly state that their intent is to exterminate Jews? You are seriously going to morally equate these Nazi terrorists with naval commandos of the Israeli Navy?

Yes, you are disgusting.

Paddy O said...

"when you get these Hama's knuckleheads who want to kill all the Jews and are the closest thing we have to real Nazi's"

Indeed, whose forebears were aligned with the actual Nazis.

SMGalbraith said...

If you didn't know the names of the two parties here, it would be impossible to discern who were the terrorists

Indeed, terrorists are well-known for arming themselves with paintball guns during their attacks.

Robert said...

Israel is now a wildly out of control and shockingly stupid country, and their much-hyped military has devolved into incompetence and thuggery. If we're gonna continue to be such close allies, we need a prez who will put them on a much tighter leash. Not only do I not like my country having this blood on its hands, I resent the difficulties this boneheaded and barbaric act by Israel has caused America in various hot spots we're caught up in.

"Bit by bit, Israel is becoming less of a strategic asset for America," - Mossad chief, Meir Dagan, yesterday.

But if you look around the neocon blogosphere, you'd be hard-pressed to imagine any act Israel could do that they would condemn. Does anyone think, had Israel just mowed down all the people on the boats with machine guns from the helicopters, that the PowerLine blog wouldn't wave their Israeli flag even higher and tell us how justified it was?

At some of these blogs, you get the feeling that blindly supporting Israel no matter what they do is part of their religion (in the case of their heroine, Sarah Palin, it definitely is), and whenever Israel goes too far they simply await the Israeli propganada machine's talking points and regurgitate them. They also seem to get a kick out of the fact that virtually the entire rest of the world disgrees with them.

The blockade is wrong, and that is the root of this chain of events. The rest of the world can see that, but those caught up in their religious-like blind support of Israel will never open their eyes.

kent said...

Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid.


Clearly, the UN needs to condemn this heinous, dastardly crime against the poor, put-upon supporters of Team Hamas. I suggest Turkey introduce a strongly worded resolution, immediately. < /sarc

hawkeyedjb said...

It's foolish to think that the flotillas have any ultimate purpose other than to carry weapons to Gaza. Neither the Hamas butchers nor their sponsors have much interest in the welfare of Gazans, but they have great interest in pushing more and heavier weaponry into Gaza. “Musical instruments, fishing rods, or fabric to make clothes” won't help kill Jews, so it’s unlikely that those goods will figure heavily in future shipments, whose passage will now seemingly be assured by the Turkish navy.

It’s sickening that westerners will take up the cause of genocidal butchers whose only goal in life is to make the world Judenrein. You are calling for safe passage of weapons from Iran to their proxies; why won’t you listen to the plain words of those who live to exterminate?

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

TEHRAN 14 Dec. (IPS) One of Iran’s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".

Trooper York said...

"It’s sickening that westerners will take up the cause of genocidal butchers whose only goal in life is to make the world Judenrein."

Very well stated. Thank you.

Old Joe Kennedy must be proud.

Paddy O said...

"The rest of the world can see that, but those caught up in their religious-like blind support of Israel will never open their eyes."

Yes, the rest of the world, especially the Turks and those in Europe, know exactly the right way to respond to those Israelis. Gotta get to the root of the problem! That's the final solution for this Palestinian issue.

If only those supporters of Israel weren't so blinded by their religious-like support of such people, who despite all the worlds efforts, continue to insist on existing. Once this is solved, the Palestinian people will be given everything and more they ever wanted by the always gracious, freedom loving, equality endorsing, Syrians, Turks, Jordanians, and Egyptians.

SMGalbraith said...

Here we have a battle between radical religious fundamentalists who wish to impose a theocracy versus a secular state where pluralism and freedom are celebrated and our progressive friends who lecture us about diversity and tolerance and pluralism side with the fundamentalists.

Sometimes all you can do is shake your head.

Triangle Man said...

Indeed, terrorists are well-known for arming themselves with paintball guns during their attacks.

Along with the well documented policy of terror organizations laying our clearly delineated geographic boundaries of control and rules of engagement. Plus their merciless offers to peacefully deliver humanitarian aid to a secure port for inspection and transportation to the needy. Exactly the same!

Alex said...

Robert:

Israel is now a wildly out of control and shockingly stupid country, and their much-hyped military has devolved into incompetence and thuggery.

Anti-Semitic much?

Alex said...

These guys are paving the way for the new Einsatzgruppen.

SMGalbraith said...

What is especially fascinating in this discussion is the inability of the left to view conservative support for Israel as anything other than some embrace of Biblical prophecy.

See, it's not because Israel is a pluralistic democracy that allows its people to live their lives as they choose. As opposed to the enemies of Israel that wish to impose a 15th century theocracy on the world.

No, it can't be that. It must be some secret "neocon" or "Christian fundamentalist" reason for the support.

Meanwhile, these same "progressives" lecture us on the need to support diversity and tolerance. As they turn their back on the one country in the Middle East that practices those ideas.

Trooper York said...

I think it is pretty easy to figure out. On one side you have the Jews and on the other side you have all these people who want to kill all the Jews. It's that simple.

It is instructive to see where everyone stands. Just Sayn'

Robert Cook said...

Alex said:

"Robert:

'Israel is now a wildly out of control and shockingly stupid country, and their much-hyped military has devolved into incompetence and thuggery.'

Anti-Semitic much?
"

How is the statement you quote objectively anti-semitic? The same statement applies to America--except we're very competent in our thuggery.

(Note: I am not the "Robert" whom Alex is quoting or addressing).

All the chatter about the flotilla being comprised of terrorists or that the the Israelis were acting in "self-defense" has about it the same stink of mendacity as did and does our claims that we "had no choice" but to attack Iraq because "Saddam had WMD" and/or that he "refused to allow inspectors in to validate the absence of WMD," (a lie told repeatedly by Bush after the fact and one never challenged by any in our jelly-kneed, rubber-spined, brain-dead mainstream media).

Robert Cook said...

Trooper York said:

"On one side you have the Jews and on the other side you have all these people who want to kill all the Jews. It's that simple."

Not in the least.

LarsPorsena said...

The Left and the Islamists..this century's Molotov-Ribbentrop pact

Trooper York said...

The last time people listened to guys like you Cookie they "nuanced" a whole bunch of people into a gas chamber.

Me, I stand with the Jews. You can do as you like.

Robert said...

Alex: Anti-Semitic much?

What exactly did I say that was "anti-Semitic", you ass-clown? By your logic I could just go up and down this thread calling people anti-Turkish bigots. The part you quoted from me said: Israel is now a wildly out of control and shockingly stupid country, and their much-hyped military has devolved into incompetence and thuggery.

The word "now" and the word "devolved" show that that is not how I think Israel always was, but how I think they have become right now.

BTW, even if you don't think Israel didn't anything barbaric, illegal, and wrong in this latest event, can you seriously claim that what they didn't wasn't STUPID? We keep hearing about the PR traps that get set for Israel, yet these days Israel seems eager to step into them, no? Their leaders used to be a lot smarter....

BTW2, why is no one in this thread at all sad that human beings were killed? And weren't those deaths entirely avoidable?

It's pointless to engage in this thread, though, because it's just a sea of smelly old neocon crap you folks cannot stop clinging to no matter how discredited it becomes. What Israel did to this boat did no good for anyone, especially themselves. It was a FIASCO. It also caused a lot of problems for America tat it could have easily avoided, and I resent that. The American flag, btw, is the only flag on my flag pole.

Trooper York said...

You see, when the Israeli's say "Never Again," they mean it.

Even if Mayor Dinkins wants to let the people vent, they are not going to let Lemrick Nelson (another peaceful protestor by the way) stab anybody.

They have the courage of their convictions.

Two things our current administration solely lacks.

Robert said...

Also, Turkey and Israel are both important allies to the USA. Funny how some of you think Turkey should now be our enemy even though they are in NATO, but I am not allowed to say a single word against Israeli military actions without being called an "anti-Semite". But I'm supposed to sit here and read 50 right wing commenters all patting Israel on the back for killing a bunch of people in a boat they had no right to assault, and not a single one of them pauses to say, "But it's too bad civilians lost their lives."

Yeah, sure, throw Turkey under the bus, and see what that gets America in hot spots like Iraq and Iran. Hey, let's just throw the whole rest of the world under the bus, from America's first ally, France, on down. Because we cannot possibly ever disagree with anything the Israeli government ever does.

Roger J. said...

Robert: I do not bemoan the deaths of thugs. They wanted martyrdom and 9 of them got it.

Re what you fly on your flagpole--the American flag is the only one I fly a well, but to abandon an ally to the 11th century fantatics will make me consider in a more critical vein, Stephen Decatur's famous toast.

Robert said...

You see, when the Israeli's say "Never Again," they mean it.

Then why are they becoming genocidal themselves? Have you read the reports of how sick children are becoming in the Gaza open-air prison?

Anyway, I'm out of here. You guys can continue to worship the Israeli government all night long.

Trooper York said...

Turkey lost whatever goodwill they had with us when they refused us access in the war. That's not something a friend or ally would do.

Things change. We should totally reassess our stand with Turkey.

Especially when they invade Greece which might happen a lot sooner than you think there bucko. You can see that one coming a mile away.

Chef Mojo said...

BTW2, why is no one in this thread at all sad that human beings were killed?

Some people need killing, especially genocidal maniacs who wish to exterminate you and yours. I am truly happy to see terrorists killed when they are arrayed against me and my allies. Robert, do you seriously deny that the terrorists on that ship do not wish to exterminate Jews? The Israelis have every right to enforce their sovereignty.

And weren't those deaths entirely avoidable?

Of course. They always are. That ship should not have tried to violate the blockade zone. One it did that, and once the terrorists attacked Israeli Naval personnel doing their duty to protect their homeland, those deaths were inevitable. It is only due to the discipline of the Israeli Navy and the fact that Israel adheres to the West that this did not turn into a justifiable massacre.

Roger J. said...

Robert: Israel had every right under international law to engage the ship and its crew. There has been a wealth of informed commentary on the laws of blockage--which, by the way, both the US and Egypt have supported in the case of the Gaza blockade. The US used the same argument in the cuban missile crisis (but referred to it as a quarantine as blockade is an act of war in international law.)

As for the Turks, NATO and all of that--recall the Turks refused to let the 4th ID stage thru Turkey during the Iraq war--their consistency as an ally as waned as they become increasingly under the sway of islamcists--see their recent support for Iran's nuclear program. Finally: NATO is a joke; its raison d'etre went away in the early 1990s--the quicker we extricate ourselves from that mess, the more money we will save in our defense budget.

Robert said...

One it did that, and once the terrorists attacked Israeli Naval personnel doing their duty to protect their homeland, those deaths were inevitable.

Yeah, as if it would've been impossible to use different tactics to reach the same objective. OH, that's right, you can't question the Israeli government's tactical decisions, because you worship Israel. Funny, tyhe Israeli newspapers are questioning it. Ok, this time I really am out of here, because I see I am dealing with people who have no morals and view other human beings as less than human. Virtually the entire world is sick of people like you.

Alex said...

What I find interesting about Robert-types is they never give Israel the benefit of the doubt. Israel is always guilty until proven guilty. Which to me smacks of pure antisemitism.

Roger J. said...

Robert: ah yes--I am a Nazi--and mentally sick as well. So be it. Do you have any better arguments? Those are pretty puerile which bespeaks your ability at reasoned analysis. But do carry on.

Trooper York said...

"Finally: NATO is a joke; its raison d'etre went away in the early 1990s--the quicker we extricate ourselves from that mess, the more money we will save in our defense budget."

Great point Roger. Let the Germans and the French and the rest of the oh so wise European's worry about it.

"Hey, let's just throw the whole rest of the world under the bus, from America's first ally, France"

That's some funny shit right there.

Maguro said...

The Turks came looking for trouble and they got it. Anyone want to guess how they might react if you drove a convoy full of Kurdish nationalist agitators up to their border and insisted on delivering "humanitarian supplies" to the PKK?

Chef Mojo said...

Then why are they becoming genocidal themselves? Have you read the reports of how sick children are becoming in the Gaza open-air prison?

¡O, pobre citos! The poor little children of Palestine being indoctrinated into a culture that values death and martyrdom over life and liberty. A culture that will force the boys to become vicious killers and the girls to be submissive to the boy's every want and need up to and including strapping on a suicide vest after the shame of being gang raped.

As far as the Israelis being genocidal? Get back to me when they start televising mass demonstrations of Jews marching in Tel Aviv chanting, "Death to the Muslims! Death to Egypt/Syria/Iran/etc."

You Arab Nazi apologists are pathetic. If the Israelis were genocidal, there would be no issues with "occupied territories" or "peace flotillas."

Chef Mojo said...

Dehumanize so you can feel nothing at the loss of human life. You're mentally sick.

If my enemy has the morals of a rabid dog, why should I not dehumanize him. He has ceased to be human in all but his physicality. If he insists on acting like a sick animal, I will treat him as such.

Paddy O said...

No one has dehumanized the Palestinians or hates them more than the other Arab nations in the area. They use the men, women, and children as pawns in their game of pride they've been playing for a century. Had anyone cared about the Palestinians, there would have been very easily resolved issues in 1948. All the land in the region, and everyone insists this tiny sliver is at all important to the whole world. All the land in the region for Muslims and they cannot stand a tiny sliver being a homeland for a people who have been brutally murdered over the millenia.

Meanwhile, they accuse others of not caring about people. It's obscene in its arrogance and lack of real, human concern. There really is nothing more obscene than the hatred of a whole people group couched in words of peace, humanitarianism and love for children. They speak word s of shame while not aware they wallow in some of the deepest shame of all--the shame of the most disgusting events of the 20th century. But, that's how anti-semitism is always framed. It's not that the Jews are inferior. It's that they're crafty, insidious, and might eat your babies.

Using intellectual words to make that same argument, and seeming to make it about some other people group in the region, doesn't hide the deep-seated shame of what has cursed this world for thousands of years. If people were even willing to not justify every single act against Israel and Jews over the last 100 years, I think there would finally be space to discuss the particulars of Israeli politics.

But as long as anyone supports the active murder of Israelis and total destruction of Israel they have absolutely no room moral accusations.

There really is nothing more shameful than putting on a pose of ethical superiority when you're arguing in defense of people who think Hitler was right.

MadisonMan said...

Is Cedarford still around?

El Presidente said...

I would have lost the flotilla at sea. Not nearly as much press and absolutely no video for the Norte Americano news entities.

WV: therboom

SMGalbraith said...

Is Cedarford still around?

He's probably busy building a boat.

Yeah, that was too easy but what the hell.

miller said...

C4 might not be around. But his spirit is alive and well on the left.

Why not just cut to the chase. "To the chambers, go, you Jews!"

Isn't that what the left wants? Why don't the Jews just bend their necks a little and stop resisting?

I mean, it's not like there's any historical basis for believing that Jews will be the first to be killed in any pogrom.

And a big shout-out to France! Consistency in diplomacy since 1940!

Robert Cook said...

"The last time people listened to guys like you Cookie they "nuanced" a whole bunch of people into a gas chamber.

Me, I stand with the Jews. You can do as you like."


Rather than engage in actual conversation or debate, Trooper York resorts to hollow posturing and demagoguery.

Youngblood said...

Robert wrote:

"Ok, this time I really am out of here, because I see I am dealing with people who have no morals and view other human beings as less than human."

Good. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out, you disingenuous Jew-hating scumbag.

Cedarford said...

Paddy O said...
"when you get these Hama's knuckleheads who want to kill all the Jews and are the closest thing we have to real Nazi's"

Indeed, whose forebears were aligned with the actual Nazis.


Just as America allied with history's two greatest butchers of the 20th century (Hitler being 3rd) - The Chinese communists and the Soviet communist butchers - in WWII. Same principal as the Arabs used allying with the Germans: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend for the time being."

In fact the Nazis didn't like the Arabs and the Arabs thought of Germans as pigs.

================
The neocon exhultation of all things Israel and the bootlicking to whatever their Israeli idols wish to do is a bit loathsome in the Althouse ranks.
Along with the other stupid yahoo stuff about how we don't need Europe, don't need NATO, don't need Turkey or other bases and allies (that have fought with us in other wars and now are with us in Afghanistan - vs. the Zionists that believe only in America fighting for them, giveing them free weapons, and giving billions to Israel and to bribe Israels "peace partners each year".)
No, we don't need Euro logistics, SOSUS stations, SIGNINT bases, German hospitals, Turkish air bases and overfly rights, Dutch ports for military shipment, or Diego Garcia or access to Pacific bases in Euro-controlled territory.
Or Bahrain or Kuwaiti bases.

NO, just OUR SPECIAL FRIEND! We only need who the Bible says are the Chosen and our religious duty to do as they want! Our Special Friend, our best friend, our only real ally!
And they say that our next duty is to attack Iran for them, so we'd best get hopping. And they say thanks for Iraq! Such a good dumb golem!

Trooper York said...

"Rather than engage in actual conversation or debate, Trooper York resorts to hollow posturing and demagoguery."

Dude, sometimes things are right or wrong. Black or white. With us or against us. The Jews in Israel are with us in the fight against Islamic terrorism as they stand attacked much like we are. Hamas and now it seems like the Turks are not. It's simple really. Sorry you can't wrap your mind around that. I know you are smart guy. And I admire your consistency. You are one of the few genuine pacifists that posts here. I admire your passion and consistency while I lament your foolishness. I just think it is real simple. No nuance.

But hey you can have your own view. It's still a free country. For a little while longer anyway.

Youngblood said...

Robert Cook wrote:

"Rather than engage in actual conversation or debate, Trooper York resorts to hollow posturing and demagoguery."

There's no debate. As Trooper York said above, on one side you have the Jews, and on the other side you have people who want to kill the Jews.

At the end of the day, you either throw your lot in with the Jews, or you throw your lot in with the fucking savages who wish to exterminate them.

It's a free country. You can align yourself with the latter over the former. Don't expect a pretty Valentine's Day card and a pat on the back from those who understand what's at stake here.

Trooper York said...

Whoops. Somebody woke up.

They must of used that big signal light up in the sky with the photo of Jackie Mason with the big x throught it.

We're in for it now.

Robert Cook said...

Chief Mojo said, addressing another Robert:

"Some people need killing, especially genocidal maniacs who wish to exterminate you and yours. I am truly happy to see terrorists killed when they are arrayed against me and my allies. Robert, do you seriously deny that the terrorists on that ship do not wish to exterminate Jews?"

How do you know anyone on that ship were "terrorists" or "genocidal maniacs?" Who are you to judge that anyone on those ships needed killing? Why should this other Robert have to "deny" that the "terrorists on that ship...wish(ed) to exterminate Jews?" It's the burden of those making such accusations to demonstrate their truth. So far, no one has.

Trooper York said...

And the only Jewish person whose boots I would lick is Rachel Weisz!

Of course I would just be starting with the boots. Just sayn'

Revenant said...

And it's "international" law too! I thought conservatives didn't believe in international law?

The point is that there is NO law under which Israel's actions weren't legally justified. :)

Revenant said...

Have you read the reports of how sick children are becoming in the Gaza open-air prison?

I remember reading the same reports about sanctions-era Iraq. Then the moment someone proposed abandoning the sanctions in favor of regime change you had lefties making Academy Award-winning documentaries about how life in sanctions-era Iraq was nothing but peaceful bliss and tranquility.

Whatever lie works, I guess.

Youngblood said...

"It's the burden of those making such accusations to demonstrate their truth. So far, no one has."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded

Khaybar was Mohammed's first victory against the Jews. When he needed some quick cash to keep his army going during the hudnah with the Meccans, he targeted the trading community. After winning the battle, Mohammed killed off most of the Jewish leaders and forcibly evicted the majority of the Jews.

He was particularly pissed off that the Jews of Khaybar didn't hand over their treasure. So, in an attempt to find it, he tortured and ultimately beheaded Kinani al Rabi and took his wife as a trophy.

Variants of the chant "Remember Khaybar, Jews!" are most commonly heard today at Hamas and Hezbollah rallies.

Cedarford said...

Trooper York:

"Me, I stand with the Jews. You can do as you like."

OK, unlike you, I stand with America, not Israel.
I understand the loyalty difficulties, though, that many have.
But Israel's interests and America's do not align with great frequency, and less and less with the Cold War over. If they did align, Israel would not need to run the 3rd largest espionage ring inside America and be the largest foreign lobby busy threatening and bribing our Congress.

==================
As for the actual blockade and incident:

1. The Israelis stupidly violated normal protocol for ship interdiction practised by Brits, US, Columbia, Australia, and other users of blockade. And the NATO and Indian Navies for Somali interdiction. The friggin Coast Guard follows this for drug interdiction. You command ships to stop, you then try to block them, if commands are ignored, you assume they are hostile and fire a shot across bows. If they keep going, you disable their engineroom or props with a war shot. THEN once stopped for whatever reason, you send an armed boarding party backed by heavy naval weaponry pointed at the ship.
In a hot war, which this isn't, of course you can sink the vessel at any point.
2. They sent commandos to a ship they knew was full of Turkish militants where commandos would be outnumbered 20 to 1 and likely attacked. Violating standard protocols before trying to take the vessel before risking an armed boarding party.
3. Few in the world support the present blockade because the Israelis made it punitive, vs. security related. Israel bans shipment of meat, vegetables, spices, lumber and other building materials, electrical equipment, ordinary office paper, computers, replacement car parts, and a long list of other items. The blockade is meant to punish citizens, not keep out "missile parts".
4. The Israelis were permitted to block vessels in international waters. That part is legal. Equally legal, though, is other nations trying to break the blockade or force Israel to just reduce it to a security blockade vs. one that is causing humanitarian problems. Or boycott Israel in turn.
5. Certain yahoos that want their beloved Zionist masters to sink Turkish vessels best think of what the enraged Turkish Navy, AF and 17 tank divisions fronting the million-man Turk Army & joined by the new Syrian allies could do. Especially if Pakistan said they would pledge 3 "special weapons brigades" to be in the rear to retaliate against any Israeli "special weapons use". (And if the NATO people the neocons disparage so much would even let America rush weapons and materials through area bases as they permitted in 1973.)

==========================

HKatz said...

It's the burden of those making such accusations to demonstrate their truth. So far, no one has.

You just haven't looked.

For instance, read the two earlier posts I made on this thread about Arab media outlets' reports on this incident and their list and descriptions of various flotilla participants (and what they were chanting beforehand - battle cries against Jews - "Khaibar, Khaibar, O Jews, the army of Muhammad will return"). These include members of the Muslim Brotherhood - people who want the Jews dead and/or gone from the region; they are not there to quibble about which routes the delivery of aid must take, or what Israel's borders must be.

Have you read the reports of how sick children are becoming in the Gaza open-air prison?
Good thing Hamas cares so much about them:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/02/israel.palestinians.aid/index.html

ElcubanitoKC said...

Youngblood, you can't bother the C4s, Roberts and garage mahals of this world with facts. They are too busy screaming and foaming at the mouth out of pure unrestricted hatred to pay attention to the facts. They don't need no stinkin' facts.

garage mahal said...

Yep, almost the entire world is wrong about Israel, except conservatives in Israel and the U.S.

Here are the facts:

There is no such thing as international laws or protocols. For Israel and the U.S.

End of story.

ElcubanitoKC said...

As he demonstrates above...

garage mahal said...

Oh, and you're a frothing anti-semite if you even question anything Israel does.

bagoh20 said...

Occasionally an open minded person will question their positions, asking if they could be wrong about their view. Then along come people who disagree with you and you see how right you are and how ugly some people are willing to be. How some can freely side with openly evil movements that desire to exterminate an entire race of people. To accept the cover of the hateful and immediately sweep aside the rights of the attacked and hated people under constant threat of extermination.

You people have despicable views and I pity the victims of your energies. They will die, since all their killers need is a little cover for a short time. Then you will claim no affinity or involvement when the horror happens. We saw such creative memory at Nuremberg, and it was not long ago. I'll be here and I'll remember your names as will the entire world, in digital perpetuity.

ElcubanitoKC said...

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so."

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

ElcubanitoKC said...

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!"

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

bagoh20 said...

C4,

Why such passion and energy to defend people wanting this conflict to continue and explode while you attack those who wish it replaced with peace.

It's sick, man. You are lost.

SMGalbraith said...

Yep, good old "World Opinion" has been sour on the Jews for a long, long time.

Guess we just need to base our policies on what good old "World Opinion" says.

Yep.

Remember those liberals who said that America needed to help the unpopular and isolated peoples? The weak in numbers? The outcasts?

Whatever happened to those folks?

Youngblood said...

ElcubanitoKC,

Oh, I know.

But every once in a while, I think it's important to call Jew haters on their hatred of Jews in clear and direct language.

They need to know that they're still scumbags.

Cedarford said...

Former PM Tony Blair called for an immediate end to the punitive blockade directed not at legitimate security threat cargo - but essentials to the citizens of Gaza.
Blair called the blockade of medicine, lumber and other construction material, electrical equipment, spare auto and farm parts, water purification systems, meat, wheelchairs, and a range of other products - utterly indefensible by the the Israeli government.
Blair predicted the blockade would be forced to end for all but legitimate security related contraband cargo.

Of course Israel 1st people will now accuse Blair of anti-Semitism.

bagoh20 said...

"Blair predicted the blockade would be forced to end for all but legitimate security related contraband cargo. "

I'm sure the Israelis can trust them to separate the contraband and weapons and put it on clearly marked ships. Maybe with a large bulls-eye on the side.

I wonder how Blair would handle it if the Germans were up to what the Palestinians are and it was directed at his tiny nation with the rest of the world telling him:

"I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Now I recommend you go home, and sleep quietly in your beds."

Revenant said...

Yep, almost the entire world is wrong about Israel

I would say "the entire rest of the world has no reason to care about Jews and plenty of reasons to suck up to the Muslim world". 85% of the Jews in the world live in the United States or Israel. The entire rest of the world contains approximately as many Jews as live in New York City alone. Outside of our nation and that of Israel, Jews are a tiny and historically hated minority significantly outnumbered by Muslims.

except conservatives in Israel and the U.S.

"Conservatives in Israel"? The raids were authorized by a member of the Labour Party.

garage mahal said...

Just don't let in any wheelchairs whatever they do.

SMGalbraith said...

Our friend Cedarford - who believes that a thought from a Jew is a Jewish thought - apparently believes it's in the national interest of the US to turn away from Israel and align ourselves with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah.

Yeah, we need allies that wish to bring back the 13th century.

You do realize, Cedarford, that those groups hate more than just those pesky "liberal Jews"?

Meanwhile, our progressive friends who think similarly spend their time mocking the "teabaggers" for their retrograde thinking.

Man, you can't make this stuff up.

Revenant said...

Remember those liberals who said that America needed to help the unpopular and isolated peoples? The weak in numbers? The outcasts? Whatever happened to those folks?

Oh, they're still around. People just have a different name for them these days.

Cedarford said...

bagoh20 said...
C4,

Why such passion and energy to defend people wanting this conflict to continue and explode while you attack those who wish it replaced with peace.

It's sick, man. You are lost
===============
Few think Israel wants peace, anymore. At least not a peace that requires them to restore land they grabbed from the Palestinians over the years of Occupation, or to compensate those they stole land and homes and possessions of in ethnic cleansing.
Nor does anyone think Israel wants a nuclear weapon free Middle East.

Only in America are Zionists still considered credible parties. And even that is coming into reconsideration as people question new major wars the neocons want us to do to "better secure Our Special Friend's security" and people openly asking if Israel is a friend or a nation that spies on us, offers sanctuary to Wall Street con artists, and is effectively a liability - a rotting albatross hung around America's neck for the time being.

If you look in the past, just 30 years ago, the opinion of the rest of the world was about evenly split between those championing Israel, those championing the Palestinians..with a large number of nations neutral.
Over time, Israel has alienated the fence-straddlers and the former champions of the state. In part because they had the arrogance to assume they had such a grip on the US Congress and Christian Zionists here that they could do whatever they wanted to, and brand all that disagreed with them terrorists or anti-semites or both..

bagoh20 said...

""Conservatives in Israel"? The raids were authorized by a member of the Labour Party."

Funny how when people want to exterminate your entire race, you care less about political affiliation so much.

Cedarford said...

"ElcubanitoKC said...
Youngblood, you can't bother the C4s, Roberts and garage mahals of this world with facts. They are too busy screaming and foaming at the mouth out of pure unrestricted hatred to pay attention to the facts. They don't need no stinkin' facts."

Hard to call you an American if all you are is a ball-licking stooge of Israel/AIPAC and the Cuban exile right wing.
Neither necessarily have America's best interests at heart.

SMGalbraith said...

Oh, they're still around. People just have a different name for them these days.

Well, I'm not a neoconservative but if that's the new name for them, I'm in.

Here we have a country in Israel where people can live free lives; Jews and Gentiles, Arab and Muslim, men and women, gay and straight. It represents the single country in the Middle East that doesn't impose the "right way of living" on humans.

Everything progressive say they're for. A country surrounded by nations and groups that oppose nearly all of those principles.

And our progressive friends give it the back of their hand.

Putin slaughters thousands in Chechnya. China oppresses Tibet. Sudan slaughters the black animists. North Korea starves its people and wages war.

But Israel is the world's chief culprit!!!

Amazing.

Revenant said...

Hard to call you an American if all you are is a ball-licking stooge of Israel/AIPAC and the Cuban exile right wing.

Israel doesn't even need to enter into it. Gaza is an ally of Iran, which is a self-declared enemy of the United States and responsible for the deaths of numerous American soldiers and civilians over the past thirty years. Ample reason for any patriotic American to support the blockade of Gaza and the soldiers who enforce it.

Of course, some people take the attitude of "well, sure, they're enemies of the United States, but they're also enemies of the Jews. So they've got their good points, too, you see."

Trooper York said...

"garage mahal said...
Just don't let in any wheelchairs whatever they do."

Don't worry garage. If those wheelchairs have any Jewish American War Vets the Arabs will throw them over the side theirownselves.

Cedarford said...

No Zionist stooge here has justified the Israeli blockade of medicine and lumber and industrial goods needed for waterworks, electrical infrastructure, and jobs. Cement. Or spices and meat or vegetables.

The blockade on materials other than weapons was started in 2007 to "punish the citizens for electing Hamas". Force them to elect new leadership Israel wants.

If a ship is forced to an Israeli port, all barred humanitarian goods is to be off loaded and left with the Israelis before the ship can proceed. THings like lumber is called "something a terrorist could use as a club"...office paper is prohibited because "terrorists could print propaganda on it". Medicine "would be stolen by the terrorists"...and so on. No rationale on why cumin and coriander and vegetables and meat is barred other than perhaps "terrorists are less effective if they are food rationed and what they eat doesn't taste so good."

bagoh20 said...

I don't care how many agree with me. If I know evil wants to wipe out a people, I know which side I'm on. And I know that's what they want because they say so by the thousands every day.

If the Palestinians got every inch of land that they had before, they and Israel's neighbors would still be calling for and attempting the extermination of that tiny sliver of a nation where Arabs are free to live, prosper, vote and even hold office. Then they would replace it with a wonderful paradise where Jews would enjoy similar respect and freedom. Yea, that's the ticket.

Regardless of what your take is on the history, this is clear: If Israel fails to defend itself, it will be destroyed down to every last Jew. There is no gray area to hide in with this. You either want to prevent that or you don't, no matter what your justification.

And from you C4, who has a piss fit because the U.S. does not sufficiently defend it's trade rights, like that's even close to a serious threat like this.

Trooper York said...

"garage mahal said...
Oh, and you're a frothing anti-semite if you even question anything Israel does."

No that's not true. You are only a frothing anti-semite if you are a frothing anti-semite.

A few of them came out to play. You gotta watch where you are laying dude, you might pick up a few fleas. Just sayn'

garage mahal said...

Seeds are barred, because, well they might actually plant and grow something and thrive. Lumber and cement banned because they might actually build something. In short, anything that could be self sustaining and not dependent on Israel is not allowed.

Maguro said...

What evidence is there for the notion that the Palestinians, or the rest of the Arab/Muslim world, have ever been the least bit interested in peaceful coexistence with Israel?

There is none. Israel must defend itself, come what may. They can't rely on the goodwill of their enemies or the empty promises of international politicians like Tony Blair.

The Cedarfords and garage mahals of the world can't be mollified, better that Israel should stop trying and vigorously assert its right to self-defense. The Turkish flotilla's "humanitarian" facade, which they barely bothered to maintain, was patently absurd. It was a boat full of terrorists trying to open a weapons smuggling channel and everyone knew it, including those who feign the most outrage over the outcome. Israel is absolutely the aggreived party here and they should be the ones seeking restitution from Turkey, not the reverse.

Revenant said...

The blockade on materials other than weapons was started in 2007 to "punish the citizens for electing Hamas". Force them to elect new leadership Israel wants.

I.e., force them to elect a government that isn't backed by America's most dangerous enemy. Why would any American have a problem with that goal? What's our reason for wanting an Iranian-backed terror group in charge of Gaza? What do we gain from Iranian control of Gaza?

Trooper York said...

And why is it when the lefties want to knock somebody they go right to the "ball licking?"

I mean I have to admit I like Bush.

When you want to insult me can't you call me a Bush licker.

That's why I started the Oscar Gamble Society.

Alex said...

you know garage the Palis might have though differently about supporting Hamas and exterminating Jooos in Israel if they really cared more about "building things". But YOU want them to have both, killing Jews and living the high life.

William said...

The people who accused Tea Partiers of racism are now upset that they are called anti-semitic for sympathizing with those whose dearest wish is to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth. In their parents' generation, we were guilty of anit-semitism because we thought the Rosenbergs were guilty and now, of course, we're Zionist stooges. Only the evil or the stupid disagree with the left.....The Baader-Meinhof Gang trained with the PLO. They were ashamed of their parents' passivity to Hitler's rise. What better way to make things right than by supporting the PLO? The left's anemic morality is due to their irony defiency.....I think the Israeli operation was screwed up. You don't send commandos armed with paint ball guns into a howling mob. It was stupid. That said, the howling mob was even dumber to escalate the violence in the presence of armed gunships......The Turks are guilty of displacing a fair number of people from their ancestral homes. Why has no worldwide cause coalesced around them? Why can't the Germans demand to return to Konigsborg? Why of all the millions of displaced people tossed about in the twentieth century are the Palestinians allowed to nurse and cultivate their grievances for four generations? The Jews were living in Babylon and Baghdad before the Arabs. They were expelled and had to leave their homes and propety behind after the state of Israel established its independence.

bagoh20 said...

"In short, anything that could be self sustaining and not dependent on Israel is not allowed."

The Palestinians have proven for generations that they have NO interest in self sufficiency or building a prosperous society. The destruction of Israel is the their first, second and third priority. The thugs in charge use all material to that ends and for the bribing of the less radical people they claim to represent.

Israel left them an excellent starter infrastructure in Gaza and they destroyed it just because it used to be Jewish. How blinded by their propaganda you boys are. They do the most despicable and self destructive things, say they are proud of it and promise more, and you guys think they have peaceful intent, and can be trusted? That just isn't logical.

Trooper York said...

Zionest stooge?

Chef Mojo said...

No Zionist stooge here has justified the Israeli blockade of medicine and lumber and industrial goods needed for waterworks, electrical infrastructure, and jobs. Cement. Or spices and meat or vegetables.

Well, this Zionist stooge can easily justify it.

Punishment. Pure and simple. If the Palis want to exterminate the Israelis, then the least the Israelis can do is make their lives miserable. And up until yesterday, the Egyptians were pitching in with gusto, which is something I'm sure Cedarford scratches his head over. In fact the Arabs as a rule have treated the Palestinians far worse than the Israelis ever have.

Here's the thing, Cedarford: Wars have consequences, and one of those should be that the loser, well, loses something. As in territory lost. I think that where the Israelis lost their eye on the ball was by not annexing the territories they took in their various wars with the Arab Nazis, and moving the Palis into Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

Be that as it may, it's really a nonissue, isn't it Cedarford. In your heart of hearts, you want to see the Jews exterminated, and that's all. In your world, everything would be so much easier without the pesky Jews trying to hold on to their little strip of land. You're the one itching to pour the Zyklon B down the tubes, aren't you? Except, I'm sure you have something more, modern in mind, don't you?

Call me a stooge? Whatever. Call me a neocon? Just an anti-semitic code word for "Jew." Call me a religious fundie? Not likely. I'm an atheist. I'll stand with the Jews because they fight against my enemies, the Arab and Muslim Nazis of the world.

It's really funny in a way. Godwin's Law is pretty fungible when you're actually dealing with Nazi scum like Cedarford, garage mahal and AL. They're the heirs to the Einsatzgruppen, marching along with a smile on their faces and cordite in their nostrils.

Penny said...

"Funny how when people want to exterminate your entire race, you care less about political affiliation so much."

Amen, to that, brother bagoh.

Americans have never walked a mile in the shoes of Israelis, but we can only try to imagine.

We got a little taste of the fear they live with day in and day out, and nearly had a national meltdown on 9/11.

What if we had learned on 9/11 that it was Canada or Mexico who had assaulted us? What if we had learned that they assaulted us because "world opinion" was against us, and that their religion proclaimed this was how they might get into heaven?

Israel isn't always right, but they are RIGHT to protect the lives of their citizens in the midst of those who would attack them TO KILL.

Those that don't understand the psyche of the Israelis need to have their favorite sports teams play ONLY DEFENSE, and in every game.

PLEASE. Think about that.

No points ever scored. You are in the game MERELY to prevent the other team from scoring, because IF they do, you're team is not only out of the Super Bowl or out of the Stanley Cup finals. Your team and all its fans are OUT OF THIS WORLD, as we know it.

bagoh20 said...

I expect millions of Jews to be killed in an attack in my lifetime. They simply will not be able stop it at some point very soon. That will happen not because they did not defend themselves, but rather because the rest of the world let it happen and apparently now seems bent on insisting that it happen. That's what it will take for most of the world to see who was really at risk and needed defended and who was not...again. This time it will be on our watch.

miller said...

I really, truly, honestly do not understand Jew-hate.

Really.

It's like some psychological trigger, a Pavlov's bell to people. You mention Israel and they go crazy.

I don't detect garage's fine sensibilities all a-quiver over the rape and slaughter in Darfur. He seems perfectly fine with black humans being slaughtered and tortured.

But -

If Israel asserts its right to exist - TO THE CHAMBERS THEY MUST GO.

Really, garage, not to put too fine a word on it, but you are a Jew-hater.

I don't expect anything else from C4 - he's completely lost with regards to rationality.

But you - I don't understand your instant reaction and your choice not to see that Hamas is out to turn Gaza into another Iran. Why you support terrorists over humans I don't know. But - that's is your choice, and that is what your choice means.

You and C4 are allies. Doesn't that disturb you a bit?

miller said...

Hamas refuses aid from flotilla

So - the rulers of Hamas don't want the aid after all.

Facts change your mind any, garage? Or is Jew-hatred more important?

Chef Mojo said...

You and C4 are allies. Doesn't that disturb you a bit?

I really doubt it. Garage knows exactly he's saying. He's just a little distracted as he tries to calculate how many Jews he can kill with a single bullet if he lines them up just so.

Think I'm being over the top? His kind in the Middle East go to bed and dream their wet dreams of lining up the Jews to die.

When the Jews are gone, everything will be ok. All their problems will be solved. Their shame will be washed away with the blood of the Jews.

wv: fecul - the matter in which C4 & garage mahal wallow in.

Hoosier Daddy said...

In short, anything that could be self sustaining and not dependent on Israel is not allowed.

Interestinly enough, Gaza borders Israel and Egypt which, if you are not aware, are Arab like their Palestinian bretheren. What they cannot obtain by the very people who wish to exterminate them, one would think that they could obtain the necessary life sustaining materials from Egypt.

Chef Mojo said...

So - the rulers of Hamas don't want the aid after all.

Heavens forfend! The aid might have Jew-cooties on it!

ElcubanitoKC said...

C4, you can try, but you can't get under my skin.

And as for being an American, remember that I chose to be one, out of eternal love and gratitude for this country, something you and your ideological allies can't understand.

wv - bales (hm...)

Youngblood said...

Garage Mahal wrote:

"Oh, and you're a frothing anti-semite if you even question anything Israel does."

No, Garage, it's not your criticism of Israel that reveals your hatred of the Jews, it's your double standard.

See, there are two nations involved in the blockade: Israel and Egypt. They are both involved in the blockade for the very same reason, to bring about the fall of the terroristic and repressive Hamas government.

Yet, you single out the nation that's predominantly Jewish for criticism while completely ignoring the role played by the nation that's not predominantly Jewish.

That double standard is why I am comfortable calling you a Jew hater.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Think I'm being over the top?

Not really. I mean when someone thinks that enforcing a blockade of a region inhabited and run by a fanatical group of nutcases who openly call for the genocide of Israelis I think its and easy call to see who is in the arbeit macht frei side of the aisle.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Garage Mahal wrote:

"Oh, and you're a frothing anti-semite if you even question anything Israel does."


This is especially rich coming from the dolt who thinks protesting out of control government spending = RACIST!

I really thought the lefties went nuts when Bush was in office but they take over and they go downright certifiable batshit insane.

ElcubanitoKC said...

Hoosier Daddy said...
[...]

Interestinly enough, Gaza borders Israel and Egypt which, if you are not aware, are Arab like their Palestinian bretheren. What they cannot obtain by the very people who wish to exterminate them, one would think that they could obtain the necessary life sustaining materials from Egypt.

6/2/10 6:33 PM


Indeed, but a) Egypt as all other muslim parties have an invested interest in the suffering of the people of Gaza and b) Egypt (or at least the area close to the border with Gaza) is actually in far worse shape than the conditions in which these people are used to live under "the occupation" and thanks to UN and Israel aid.

They actually found this out the first time they forced their way into Egypt about two years ago. The New York Times actually ran an article on it.

And speaking of Egypt, on April 29th, 2010, Egyptian special forces pumped chemical warfare gasses into a tunnel under the border with Gaza killing 4 Palestinian "workers" (smugglers). Where was the outrage? Where is the outrage?

SMGalbraith said...

Include me out of the charge that garage is an anti-semite. There's no evidence here. Sorry, some folks are slinging that charge around a bit carelessly.

I have no doubt that if Israel was a predominantly Catholic state or an Episcopalian state or any other western religion (note: western) that he'd still be critical of its policies.

Many on the left (and some on the right) view Israel as an occupying colonial nation, a sort of remnant of western imperialism, that is oppressing the Palestinian people. They view the Palestinians as the aggrieved party (not without some merit).

The fact that it's a Jewish state is ancillary to their view.

As to Cedarford, I have no idea what he's thinking most of the time.

He doesn't like liberal Jews. Fine. Some folks don't like conservative Christians. Fine.

But a view or action by a liberal Jew is not the view or action by Jews.

garage mahal said...


This is especially rich coming from the dolt who thinks protesting out of control government spending = RACIST!


Yea? Who's that?

Penny said...

"You and C4 are allies. Doesn't that disturb you a bit?"

Had to laugh at this one from miller. BUT, I also understand that alliances might often have stranger people in bed together than garage and C4, who I respect as Althouse commenters that I often disagree with.

Honestly, doesn't anyone wonder if the Israelis were in bed with the Egyptians?

Imagine Egyptian/Israeli "pillowtalk", where BOTH decide to put an embargo against Hamas *in Palestine*?

It seems Hamas has been kicked out of MORE than one bed.

Is it possible that Egyptian women were just more "accomodating"?

Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Yea? Who's that?

Look in the mirror pal.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I have no doubt that if Israel was a predominantly Catholic state or an Episcopalian state or any other western religion (note: western) that he'd still be critical of its policies.

Well when those policies are to keep a terrorist organization which openly calls for the genocide of the inhabitants of Israel, from obtaining weapons then I really have to question whose side he's on.

But you know, you bring up an interesting point about being critical of western religion. Garage doesn't seem to have a problem with the blockade Egypt had.

Wonder why

Hoosier Daddy said...

Many on the left (and some on the right) view Israel as an occupying colonial nation, a sort of remnant of western imperialism,

Well being ignorant of the historical record doesn't count for much in my book.

garage mahal said...

Look in the mirror pal.

Have anything else to grab completely out of your ass that you feel like sharing?

Wonder why

Maybe Egypt didn't attack a ship and murder it's passengers like Israel did?

SMGalbraith said...

Well being ignorant of the historical record doesn't count for much in my book.

Yeah, but they say the same thing about us.

I do believe that they (i.e., the Left) see this as a sort of "Third World victims of Western Imperialist aggression" narrative.

As was noted above, they're not complaining about Egypt's embargo of Gaza. Egypt doesn't fit into the narrative.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

The Turkish regime gave tacit approval to this attempt to run Israel's blockade. They're hedging their bets in the region toward Iran and the PM's base constituency is traditional/Islamic. Modern Turkey's strong fling with secularism diverged with his election, and the PM was probably still so pissed at being morally upstaged by a much more eloquent Shimon Peres in Davos last year that he couldn't help playing his hand this way.

Ankara was looking to tilt Turkey's alliance away from Israel and this staged "event" gives them the perfect excuse.

But as others knowledgeable in the law, truth and basic morality know, it's a bunch of bullshit. More of the same damn global demagoguery against the perpetual pariah.

And garage, re: senseless deaths of innocent civilians looking for anything but a fight, look up the concept of martyrdom sometime. I know, such things don't register so easily with our rigid Western minds. But the comments by Hamas' leader prove otherwise. And actually, as a strict PR move, martyrdom usually works anywhere.

Look up the pictures of Buddhist monks immolating themselves during the escalation in Vietnam sometime. You'll get the picture. Martyrdom is martyrdom is martyrdom and that's the only form of sympathy and solidarity the Palestinians either know or can manage.

Youngblood said...

SMGalbraith,

It makes not one iota of difference whether Garage's objectively antisemitic statements are fueled by misguided anti-imperialism or some inherent notion of white supremacy. They both lead to the same place.

For example, Hitler simply hated the Jews, while Goebbels hated the Jews because they were capitalists oppressing the German people. Both eventually realized they were actually on the same team.

I actually believe that Garage is nothing more than a knee-jerk anti-conservative who feels a pathological need to oppose the prevailing conservative winds.

However, if this leads him to direct criticisms at Israel that are objectively antisemitic, it's valid (and necessary) to oppose what he says on those grounds and in no uncertain terms.

If someone talks like a Jew hater, I see no reason to pretend that he or she isn't a Jew hater.

And along the same lines, please don't make excuses for Cedarford by putting words into his mouth and claiming that he merely opposes "liberal" Jews.

If you actually read his postings, you'll find that Cedarford isn't some kind of misguided conservative, he's nothing more than a cheap antisemite.

In his eyes, the Jews can do no right, and those who oppose the Jews can do no wrong. If Jews are murdered by savages, the savages get the benefit of the doubt and the Jews get the blame.

SMGalbraith said...

please don't make excuses for Cedarford by putting words into his mouth and claiming that he merely opposes "liberal" Jews.

Sorry, I don't read all of his posts but the ones I've seen on Jewish matters were (mostly) limited to his antipathy towards "liberal Jews."

I do think one can be hostile to "liberal Jews" and not be anti-semitic just as one can be hostile to "conservative Christians" and not be anti-Christian.

Whether Cedarford falls into this category can be debated (I'll pass on it).

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

Cedarford sees the world as tribes. And not just any tribes. Tribes as distinct, fixed and flawed in what they are as the eugenicists saw races. Nothing less and nothing more. This is simply reality as it exists in Cedarford's world.

No one can escape the fact that they are nothing more than members of a tribe in Cedarford's mind.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Have anything else to grab completely out of your ass that you feel like sharing?

Nah. You're doing a good job at that yourself.

You're the one who sides with the sympathizers of the terrorist group who openly calls for genocide of Jews. That tells me all I need to know about you and what resides up your ass.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I do believe that they (i.e., the Left) see this as a sort of "Third World victims of Western Imperialist aggression" narrative.

Which works fine as long as one ignores the Jews being indigenous to the land. Again, ignorance among the left is bliss.

traditionalguy said...

The HBO is playing Schindler's List over and over. That is C-4's favorite movie, except for the bad ending. Seriously, the potential to get Jews money has always been half of the pogroms and extortion used on them for 1500 years...until they got their own Nation State again. Once again Obama and his fascist organisation is attracted to the Jews money he thinks that he can get if he removes the current government in Israel with one that will pay extortion for survival rather than fight back. Obama has sent the message that peeled Turkey off its alliance with Israel and Egypt is next. So the commando raid on the flotilla was Bibi telling Obama and his Muslim friends that paying extortion was not an option...Israel will fight first. Obama is a pathetic gangster that is now fighting a country that has experience dealing with two bit thieves like our President.

garage mahal said...

For example, Hitler simply hated the Jews,

The Hitler Card. How original. I'll give you guys credit for sure though. No matter how fucking stupid and childish your arguments are, no matter how obviously disastrous the policies you advocated turned out, you just keep ticking like the EverReady bunny as if none of it ever happened. Every single thing you've touched has turned to shit. But not in Make Believe Land. Iraq is a success and cheap. Sarah Palin is tough and smart. Rising global temperatures mean lowering global temperatures.

Why would the topic of Israel be any different.

Chef Mojo said...

(...)no matter how obviously disastrous the policies you advocated turned out(...)

Well, garage. Please enlighten us, will you? What policy are we advocating that's so disastrous? Letting Israel become a nation? Supporting it though numerous wars of aggression on the part of the Arab Nazis? Existential wars, mind you. C'mon, garage. Educate us! Just what is it that the United States has done wrong in supporting a fellow liberal democracy through the years? I'm curious as to exactly where we fucked up, garage. Seriously. Lay it all down for us, garage, since you're sitting up there on the throne of judgement over the nation of Israel.

Really. I want to see your brilliant solution to millennia of bloodshed and hatred that goes back before the religions involved ever came to be. Let your brilliance shine, garage!

Or better yet, garage, eat shit, you Nazi motherfucker.

garage mahal said...

Ha.

SMGalbraith said...

Maybe Egypt didn't attack a ship and murder it's passengers like Israel did?

Wow, I've been defending you but it's reaching a point where your comments really are indefensible.

Murder? Did you see the tapes as to what happened? It was a all-hell broke loose fight.

Hardly murder.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Well now that garage has pulled out the Iraq, Palin and global warming card to support his rationale that Israel is evil I'd call that a thread kill.

Chef Mojo said...

Is it the blockade, garage? Is that what bugs you? Have a problem with the blockade the Federals imposed upon the Confederates during the Late Unpleasantness? Or that blockade on Cuba imposed by Kennedy? Or the blockade of England by the Germans in WW2? Or our blockade of Japan in WW2? C'mon, garage; what's the hangup with preventing hostile terrorists getting rockets to launch at your people? You think the Palis just make them in their backyards? Nope. They smuggle the parts in and assemble them, and then they just launch them willy-nilly into Israel into civilian populations in direct contravention of the laws of war. But that's ok with you, because the Palis aren't getting their falafel and schwarma spices. Well, boofuckinhoo, garage.

Let's try this out, ok?

The Palis up and say, ok; enufsenuf! We'll stop trying to kill you! We'll let you live in peace! We'll stop blowing y'all up and launching rockets and shit!

Amazing what would happen there in that case.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

Maybe Egypt didn't attack a ship and murder it's passengers like Israel did?

Right. Instead they just sat back and let Israel take the fall for enforcing the same blockade that Egypt was a party to.

The region is full of pussies.

I generally support Israel, it's not hard to, but you guys are a bit too obsessive and Manichean in your views. This is all about Turkey. And, of course, Iran - as always. Read Barnett.

kent said...

Is it the blockade, garage? Is that what bugs you?

Nah. Can't be. Hasn't mewled so much as Word One in objection to this blockade, after all.

Youngblood said...

Garage,

Next time I point out your objective antisemitism and you can't effectively respond, just admit you got nothin'. Trying to throw out some kind of scattershot critique of what you think my political beliefs might be is pretty lame, even for fuckwit like you.

miller said...

I wouldn't use the imprecise word Anti-Semite for those who hate Jews. People like garage will say "but I love Arabs and they're Semites."

I prefer the accurate word Jew-hater.

Like I said, I don't understand this Jew-hate. But I do recognize it for what it is: sheer irrational hate.

I have no patience to listen to your argument on how the Jews had it coming.

Cedarford said...

Chef Mojo - "And up until yesterday, the Egyptians were pitching in with gusto, which is something I'm sure Cedarford scratches his head over."

No. because Egypts dictator Mubarak backs Fatah and the PLA, not Hamas. Hamas is an offshoot of the banned in Egypt Muslim Vrotherhood. Hence their participation in the blockade, which is wildly unpopular in Egypt.

"Although the United States officially supports the blockade, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton met Israeli Minister of Defence Ehud Barak in February 2010 and urged him to ease the blockade. The United States has long been pressing Israel to ease the restrictions on Gaza. Speaking about the Gaza flotilla raid, which occurred on 31 May 2010, Clinton described the blockade on Gaza as "unsustainable and unacceptable".
Pope Benedict has called the collective punishment of 1.5 million Palestinians , "morally wrong".
The UN issued a report saying it was essentially a war crime in contravention of required Geneva treatment of a population under occupier control.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

Garage is almost certainly no anti-Semite (funny how little time you devote to calling out Der Cedarford). His only problem is that he's just as obsessed as y'all are with the nitpicky nothing issues of Israel and terrorism at the expense of what this is really about: Turkey.

You're all fools to some extent or another and you all deserve each other. I mean, thanks for your defense of a liberal democracy whose culture formed one of the foundations of Western Civilization and all. Really. Thanks for that. But at the same time, arguing where you stand on the Great Global Jihad vs. "human rights" pinball game is about as big a waste of time as any other wedge-issue/non-issue that the politicians have you running after on their behalf.

Concern yourself with the issues that matter: The Great Powers. That's what the historians will be writing about when all is said and done. No one will care about the justifications regarding how ten dead Turkish conservatives wound up on a boat in the Mediterranean years from now and neither should you.

Turkeys leaders don't. Iran doesn't. Israel obviously doesn't. And if the "martyrs" did they'd have figured out a way to stick around. Only the UN and the O.K. Corral does.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

Oh well there you go! Pope Benedict has a problem with it.

Maybe when he figures out which side God favors when it comes to pedophiles and kids then his opinion will matter.

The U.N. is a joke. Listening to der Cedarford invoke the U.N. in this is, well... interesting.

Revenant said...

Garage is almost certainly no anti-Semite (funny how little time you devote to calling out Der Cedarford).

Most of the regulars here ignore Cedarford entirely.

bagoh20 said...

"This is all about Turkey. And, of course, Iran - as always. "

Bullshit. That's just the drama du jour. If Jews disappear, it stops. If Iran and Turkey disappear the conflict continues. It's about Jews versus the immorality of the world. Some use violence and other use apathy and some use distraction. Nothing will save the Jews except Jews, God, and America. It will take all three.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

Jews (Israel) are somewhat of a backdrop. There would still be human dramas involving issues of morality without them, and they are a useful and interesting spoiler when it comes to the misunderstandings and specific quibbles between America and a less advanced Arab-Muslim world.

As for the U.S. "saving" Israel, I guess that depends on how driven you are toward an Armageddon's eye view of things. I mean, America respects Israel because it was formed in its image, and rather than feeling threatened by its forebear (as Europe did and does), it looks upon it favorably.

At that point everything sort of breaks down. The other nations still revolve around power - actually all nations must revolve around power, and Israel is in a weird position not only because it stands out ethnically in the region, but because it is a nation previously committed only to some moral ideas but without any power.

Now that they have power, others are befuddled at having to deal with the political incarnation of a body of moral ideas that they ultimately appropriated for themselves. Nationalism, universalism and ethics form a strange brew and Israel becomes an odd focal point for that maelstrom.

That's Israel and modern civilization in a nutshell, as I see it. As for the Israelis themselves, I'm sure most of them would like to think they're approaching all this survival in the modern world business as practically as they can. But they're no less human than everyone else. Just a bit smarter - by necessity of course. But still flawed.

garage mahal said...

Next time I point out your objective antisemitism and you can't effectively respond, just admit you got nothin'.

Nothing I said was remotely antisemitic, so why would I respond.

bagoh20 said...

"The UN issued a report saying it was essentially a war crime in contravention of required Geneva treatment of a population under occupier control."

It's not an occupation, it's a war. Occupations can be ended by the occupier going home. The Jews are home. Foreign nations want them out of their own land or dead. That's a war. Israel is just the most voluntarily and involuntarily restrained party in the history of warfare and it may cost them everything.

As has been stated many times: If the Palestinians want peace they can have it tomorrow, but Israel is offered only suicide or war. They have yet to decide for themselves, but it seems clear what much of the world would choose.

Ritmo,

We're talking about the possible death of millions...soon. There will be nuclear weapons on both or multiple sides of this conflict that is unprecedented in length and insanity. It's not just a footnote to discuss over a glass of single malt. It the quality of your species and its culture being tested.

Duscany said...

I don't know why the Department of Justice never required Peretz to register as a foreign agent. That way he could exult Israel 24/7 without even having to pretend to care about the United States.

miller said...

Yes, everyone ignores C4; most people play with MUL/BSR/RB like a cat plays with a mouse.

It's garage I'm sad about. Normally just a harmless leftist troll, he's become a Jew-hater.

Sad.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

There will be nuclear weapons on both or multiple sides of this conflict that is unprecedented in length and insanity.

Well, such a scenario certainly seems to feed into the kind of drama that who knows what is feeding you.

It's not just a footnote to discuss over a glass of single malt.

Got the memo. Must. Be. More. Dramatic. About. It.

It the quality of your species and its culture being tested.

That's what they said when the first nukes were exploded.

And rightly so. It's the power of nukes that posed this question.

As far as whether Iran is crazier, more craven, more reckless, or just more strange and foreign to you than any of the other warmongers copiously littered throughout Western history, I'll leave it for you to decide. Oppenheimer and Einstein certainly didn't seem to think so. But apparently those cats are all just footnotes to you, whose ideas should be discussed (if at all) over a Fox News broadcast, rather than any function that involves chemical alteration of one's perception.

Iran may or may not be worse or more dangerous than any other potential holder of atomic weapons, but it would be nice if you found a way to convince me of that through something other than your lack of knowledge of Islam or Iran and your theological convictions regarding Israel's supposed destiny in the world. This one and the next.

Great. Religious arguments in favor of Israel and against Iran - because Iran is too fanatically Muslim! What a wonderful idea. Fight weaponized religious fanaticism with vague religious arguments. I really see that one working out.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ritmo Brasileiro said...

It's garage I'm sad about. Normally just a harmless leftist troll, he's become a Jew-hater.

At least he'd rather support Israel on a political and moral basis, rather than just because it's citizens are Jewish.

I'd love to see the fat, lazy cat chase that argument around.

opit said...

How do you people breathe in such concentrated bullshit ? I'm reminded of a question asked about AfPak/Iraq the other day : If al Qaeda is down to 100 or so, why is it costing the better part of a trillion dollars a year to prosecute a campaign of murdering them in their beds ? For that you don't need all the toys.
Blame Gates if you don't agree. That's where he's coming from.
Likewise I am stunned by the terrific threat to Israel's existence from people kept in confinement all their lives.No army,air force,navy....and their elected government isn't even considered worthwhile to talk to. Oh, No ! We in our wisdom will choose who speaks for them !
But if this thing could have been seen coming, I have one question for our lawyer. What are the repercussions for Israel - and NATO - if Turkey chooses to file an Article V complaint against Israel with NATO ? It is, after all, an assault on Turkish merchant marine. It isn't Turkey's fault NATO was set up under terms to justify 'Lend Lease'. It sure complicates any attempt to sit on the Israeli question when they just screwed the pooch so dramatically.

bagoh20 said...

Ritmo,

You seem to create a persona to argue with complete with ideas you can ridicule. Nice world you created for yourself there, but I never mentioned any religion or any nation's particular propensity to use nuclear weapons. I'm talking about us as a species which happens to include those on all sides. Some are crazed with the idea of destroying the other. It is quite possible, even likely, that millions will be killed on both sides, mostly innocents. I have no problem choosing sides in it since one side clearly wants peace not domination nor religious destiny and the other wants both.

The point is that it is up to those outside the conflict to make it clear that the aggressor will not prevail in dominance, destiny, nor world opinion. I believe that is the only way to prevent a horrible unprecedented tragedy that will seriously effect the entire world and especially us.

Try to impress me more by being direct and well reasoned rather than trying to write with a style that attempts to hide a lack of focus under flowery indirect verbiage designed to attack all your bogeymen, who I don't hang out with.

bagoh20 said...

Sorry but the law is just a tool to be used by the lawless here. Like unarmed citizens protecting themselves with gun control. If the law is unable to see the aggressor here, it has no moral purpose. I don't think Israel needs a lawyer.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

Dude, Bag, I can only be as direct as you. And vague talk of mutual destruction and the killing of millions doesn't cut it on the directness front. We are talking about conflict in a violent region, after all.

You're more direct in wanting to see Israel as the more peaceably inclined and aggrieved country than Iran, and I won't disagree with you there.

The problem, however, lies in the fact that perception is everything. And for whatever reason - nationalism, religion, universalism, cultural retardation - a whole lot of people see (or want to see) Israel as in the wrong.

Our fight is with them. We obviously disagree merely on what we need to understand about them before a way can be found to reach them or otherwise influence them.

The other problem is that Turkey and Iran have motivations that are more complex and go beyond what these poor people are allowed to perceive. If anything, that is my point on this thread. I see no reason why you've found that so confounding and disagreeable.

William said...

Liberals sympathize with Jews when they are victims. When they are victors, not so much....If Israel got overrun, you could depend on garage to favor sending medical aid and even giving the survivors priority immigration status.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Try to impress me more by being direct and well reasoned rather than trying to write with a style that attempts to hide a lack of focus under flowery indirect verbiage designed to attack all your bogeymen

Are you suggesting that he actually have a point? What the hell fun is that?

If al Qaeda is down to 100 or so, why is it costing the better part of a trillion dollars a year to prosecute a campaign of murdering them in their beds ?

A trillion a year? Really?

At least he'd rather support Israel on a political and moral basis, rather than just because it's citizens are Jewish.

Would he? Cause I ain't seeing it. Garage seems to be incensed by the fact that the Israelis are trying to prevent Hamas from obtaining weapons to be used on them. Evidently his moral compass lies more with Hamas being provided unfettered access to weaponry used to kill Israelis. Maybe there is a political angle there too I don't know. After seeing a number of his posts on the subject I'm not all that sure he's just choosing Hamas since the conservative commentariat is supportive the Israelis. Enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.

Kev said...

Wars have consequences, and one of those should be that the loser, well, loses something. As in territory lost.

This is why I've never been able to side with the Palestinians in this whole thing. It's like they need to be grabbed by the collective collar and shaken back and forth to remind them that they lost a war in 1948.

Want the land back? The only civilized way to do it is to amass a uniformed army and declare war against them--clearly-identifiable soldiers fighting for both sides. The methods that the Palestinians have chosen instead--blowing up pizza parlors full of innocent civilians, launching rockets willy-nilly across the border--shows them to be barbarians, and I don't see how anyone who considers him/herself to be civilized could support them.

Revenant said...

The UN issued a report saying it was essentially a war crime in contravention of required Geneva treatment of a population under occupier control.

Israel has been condemned more times by the UN than have all the other nations of the world put together.

Which pretty neatly sums up the intellectual seriousness of the UN, don't you think? :)

Hoosier Daddy said...

Want the land back? The only civilized way to do it is to amass a uniformed army and declare war against them--clearly-identifiable soldiers fighting for both sides.

Well when Clinton tried to get both sides together Israel offered 100% of Gaza and 94% of West Bank at which point Arafat told Barak to fuck himself and walked out.

Again, when the default position of the Palestinians (as well as Iran, Syria and a good chunk of the Arab world) is the destruction of Israel and its inhabitants its not hard for me to pick the Israelis over the advocates of genocide.

Revenant said...

If al Qaeda is down to 100 or so, why is it costing the better part of a trillion dollars a year to prosecute a campaign of murdering them in their beds?

Was the person who asked this question high at the time? Just curious. The "100 al Qaeda" estimate is the estimate for al Qaeda operatives in Afghanistan. The war in Afghanistan costs around $30 billion a year.

Likewise I am stunned by the terrific threat to Israel's existence from people kept in confinement all their lives.

Gaza has been blockaded for three years. I'm not sure what the average age of a Hamas terrorist is, but I'm fairly certain it is a bit above that. :)

and their elected government isn't even considered worthwhile to talk to. Oh, No ! We in our wisdom will choose who speaks for them

That's really a no-win argument for you. If you consider Hamas to be the legitimate government of Gaza, then the rocket attacks it regularly launches against Israel constitute acts of war by the state of Gaza against the nation of Israel -- which means that Israel is not only within its rights to prevent ANY supplies from reaching Gaza, but within its rights to bomb the place back to the stone age if it chooses to. War is war, after all. If, on the other hand, you want to say "oh no, the Palestinian people don't agree with those rocket attacks, that's just Hamas terrorists, not a governmental action" then Hamas isn't the real government of Gaza -- and hence there's no point in Israel negotiating with it.

In short, even if you overlook the fact that everyone from the EU to Japan to your home nation of Canada considers Hamas to be a violent terrorist group, there still isn't any reason for Israel to negotiate with them.

What are the repercussions for Israel - and NATO - if Turkey chooses to file an Article V complaint against Israel with NATO?

We laugh at them.

It is, after all, an assault on Turkish merchant marine.

Yeah, good luck with that one. Neither the United States nor any other member of NATO is going to sign off on the idea that sending people to board and inspect a ship constitutes "assault", especially since all of the member nations do it regularly.

Duscany said...

"[R]ather than allow an Israeli search for armaments — a blockade necessitated by Hamas rockets falling on Israel daily — the mob, chanting songs about invading Israel, attacked those who boarded with sharpened iron bars, poles, rifles and clubs."

Where is it written that the people trying to break an immoral brocade must passively submit to an assault by armed commandos rappelling down from helicopters firing pistols, tear gas and flash grenades. I would think anyone who didn't fight back under those circumstances would be ashamed to hold up his head once he got home. Unarmed citizens have a moral right to resist fascist attempts to seize power, even when cloaked in the guise of self-defense.

Israel is fonds of asking people who criticize its methods if Israel has the right to defend itself. Actually, in my opinion, Israel effectively forfeited that right when it attacked the USS Liberty in June of 1967 during the Six Day War.

I personally am tired of Israel killing innocent people and then invoking the Holocaust as if just saying the word gives Israel the right to do anything its paranoid racist Jewish supremacist community chooses.

traditionalguy said...

FYI the Christian support for the Jews in Israel comes from a belief that the world's need to destroy Israel arises from Man's rebellion against God's "chosen People" picked to recieve the Messiah. Admittedly a Messiah is a political governing figure. No wonder the world is desperate to kill the idea and the person of a Messiah coming with power to overthrow the world governments. Yet Christians support a Messiah coming again and ruling the world from Jerusalem. (See, Psalm 110 that Jesus quoted about his role) It is the secular Jews who bitterly resent the role placed upon them. They say, "we wish God would chose someone else". But God wont, and the nations are working themselves into a rage against the coming of the end of their rule in this world, seeing that their time is short. They lash out at God in anger and unless America restrains them as we used to do, they will easily agree to the extermination of all the Jews that returned to the land promised to them as descendants of Abraham.This is no secret to anyone since it is all written down in the Hebrew prophets.

miller said...

You know, Duscany, you're right.

Israel should just let Gaza arm themselves and continue to fire rockets into their country.

Like the Good Jews that they are, they should just passively accept their fate.

And once we've gotten rid of that nasty country and its nasty citizens, then the Arabs will finally stop being murderous thugs.

What color is the sky in your world?

Trooper York said...

"Ritmo Brasileiro said...
I'd love to see the fat, lazy cat chase that argument around."


Hey I resemble that remark!

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

It invokes the Holocaust as the obvious rejoinder to the asinine assertion that the world can be relied upon to care about, let alone defend, Israel's legitimate security concerns.

Alex said...

I'm shocked that Ritmo is pro-Israel. How can the rest of his leftism not have led to that Joo-infection?