March 17, 2010

"Expecting kucinich to bodily ascend to heaven any second now."

Babbling in the Church of Health Care, Ezra Klein-style.

76 comments:

madawaskan said...

Did you see the line he had about America must eventually guarantee "alternative medicine"?

madawaskan said...

I'm talking about "Beam Me Up" Kucinich, not Ezra Klein.

Fred4Pres said...

I got too snarky too soon down on the Winslet thread, Althouse does deliver on an Obamacare post. Does anyone know if this mess will actually get voted on (or undemocratically forced on us).

The image of Kucinich as a saint makes me want to join Hitchens as an athiest.

DADvocate said...

No surprise this little, psycho wimp folded.

Turtledove said...

Obama promised to appoint him Tsar of Alien Affairs.

Fred4Pres said...

Somehow the thought of a church involving Kuchinich makes me think of keds and aliens.

Fred4Pres said...

Given that, maybe Kucinich voting for Obamacare makes sense.

John said...

Ann,

You shouldn't pick on Klein. It is not just like, it is picking on the retarded kid. Not funny.

madawaskan said...

We must free the states. We must have control over private insurance companies and the cost their very existence imposes on American families. We must strive to provide a significant place for alternative and complementary medicine, religious health science practice, and the personal responsibility aspects of health care which include diet, nutrition, and exercise.

kucinich.house.gov

lyssalovelyredhead said...

Seems to me this is a stronger reason for the rest of the no votes to hold. "Let's follow Dennis Kucinich!" is not really much of a rallying cry.
- Lyssa

madawaskan said...

What the hell happened on Air Force One?

Was Rahm there?

Do they have a shower on that plane?

And what did Kucinich supposedly get...?

John said...

Kucinich is one vote of 532. Generally they let the Representative from Alpha Centari vote as he likes. The fact that they have had to go bride Kucinich says they are really desparate.

themightypuck said...

I still think it is not going to pass. Latest intrade is around 60 although it has bounced around a bit. My suspicion is that a site like intrade will skew in favor but that's just speculation based on who I think would use such a service.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

madawaskan said (quoting DK) "We must free the states. We must have control over private insurance companies..."

I find it interesting that, for liberals, the word "free" so often comes in such close proximity to "control."

Liberal idea of freedom is pretty much like the freedom found with living with your parents. You may have less responsibility to pay, but you sure ain't free.
- Lyssa

Hoosier Daddy said...

Keep in mind that Kucinich was a no vote because he didn't think the current bill didn't give the State enough power and control.

Michael said...

Dennis thought the President was asking if he were ready to be beamed up, not deemed up.

Fred4Pres said...

John did you say "bride" Kucinich? So they set up that marriage of his and got him laid? That explains a lot.

And if more people go the Heaven's Gate route, perhaps Obamacare really will save money. Win Win.

madawaskan said...

Lyssa I never can figure them out.

"Free the states" who the heck knows what Kucinich means by that.


*********

Hoosier

Well sounds like Kucinich has really looped himself then.

Just two weeks ago he said he was a "no" then one plane ride later he's a yes-without apparently winning any changes to the bill.

John said...

"I still think it is not going to pass. Latest intrade is around 60 although it has bounced around a bit. My suspicion is that a site like intrade will skew in favor but that's just speculation based on who I think would use such a service."

Obamacare tanked on Inatrade yesterday. At close yesterday it was at 35. Since inatrade is nothing but lagging conventional wisdom, that is a bad sign for Obamacare.

http://data.intrade.com/graphing/jsp/closingPricesForm.jsp?tradeURL=https://www.intrade.com&contractId=709242

madawaskan said...

Fred4Press-

John did you say "bride" Kucinich? So they set up that marriage of his and got him laid? That explains a lot.

LOL!

********

Hey! Can someone go fetch garage?

He's trying to have a Health Care debate on the Holder thread.

Lem said...

Kucinich is explaining himself on CSPAN.

John said...

"John did you say "bride" Kucinich? So they set up that marriage of his and got him laid? That explains a lot"

Have you ever seen his wife? If you have you would understand that that isn't really that far fetched. But I meant "bribe".

madawaskan said...

Firedoglake has the vote total at 208 and claims that Nancy only needs eight more votes.

According to them Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick of AZ recently flipped to yes and is vote #207 and Kucinich would be vote #208.

vet66 said...

Kucinich is an unprincipled sell-out. He is also worried that Pelosi meeting with all the female democrats will put him to "flaying the skinned dog" (HT: Lysistrata and MM) if he voted no.

This is what alternative medicine and a vegan diet will do for your cognitive process. Pathetic.

WV: umfur
What he could kiss goodbye if he voted no,

lyssalovelyredhead said...

madawaskan said: "Free the states" who the heck knows what Kucinich means by that."

It's pure Orwell. Freedom through dependance; freedom through control, that sort of thing.

I would bet the farm that the primary reason that he flipped is that Obama showed him exactly how this bill, if passed, would lead us down a path of the complete healthcare socialization that DK dreams of.
- Lyssa

Hoosier Daddy said...

Just two weeks ago he said he was a "no" then one plane ride later he's a yes-without apparently winning any changes to the bill.

Well Dennis isn't as dumb as he makes out to be. I'm sure Obama explained to him that its not 'perfect' but its the camel's nose in the tent and that once its law, then they can go about doing Allah's work of getting more State control over time.

The leftists make a good point about once the bill is passed people will come to like and much like SS and Medicare, rely on it. After a few years of grousing over higher taxes we'll have gotten used to it just like our parents and grandparents did with Medicare and SS taxes.

The real problem is one that I have been harping on for years and that's we as a nation are so broke it's beyond funny. The White House is even admitting we're looking at current unemployment figures being where they're at for an extended period of time which of course means those of us fortunate enough to be employed will be forking over yet more of our earnings to pay for benefits of others. Oh and lets hope the Chinese and others continue to finance more Democrat largese.

John said...

"Given this Big Pharma clout, it's unsurprising that the bill Obama's whipping for — Senate bill — has nearly everything the drug companies wanted: prohibiting reimportation of drugs, preserving Medicare's overpayment for drugs, lengthy exclusivity for biotech drugs, a mandate that states subsidize drugs under Medicaid, hundreds of billions in subsidies for drugs, and more.

PhRMA chief Billy Tauzin, who was vilified by Obama on the campaign trail, worked out much of this sweetheart deal in a West Wing meeting with White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel. Tauzin visited the White House at least 11 times. He left his imprint so deeply on the current bill that it should probably be called BillyCare rather than ObamaCare."

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Dems-tap-drugmaker-millions-for-PhRMA-friendly-bill-87852997.html#ixzz0iRmMn5ZI

If this bill passes, don't ever let any liberal who supported it tell you they are anything but shills for big, connected corporatins.

John said...

"The leftists make a good point about once the bill is passed people will come to like and much like SS and Medicare, rely on it. After a few years of grousing over higher taxes we'll have gotten used to it just like our parents and grandparents did with Medicare and SS taxes."

That is what they think, but they are in for a terrible surprise. This bill will be the end of them. And as I keep telling people, Medicare and Social Security were popular when enacted. That makes a big difference. They didn't become popular with time. They staid popular as people ignored the growing problems because they liked the benefits. This bill provides no benefits and is not popular to begin with.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I really wish the leftists who think more government spending is the answer would take 10 minutes and just look at what is happening in Greece and then explain to me 1) how this is a good thing and 2) why we should be paddling down the same stream knowing there's a waterfall at the end?

Unless of course bringing out a complete collapse of the country is their endgame which, based upon the current WH occupant's upbringing isn't necessarily a wrong assumption.

Hoosier Daddy said...

That is what they think, but they are in for a terrible surprise. This bill will be the end of them.

Hope springs eternal ;-)

John said...

"Hope springs eternal ;-)"

I really have no patience for the Conservative who sits around and feels sorry for themselves convinced that the American public is nothing but a bunch of lazy communists who would never turn on a government program once in enacted.

I have more respect for the public than that. And I think the conservatives who have such a low opinion of the country are no better than the get the US out of North America liberals.

Seriously, if you have such a low opinion of the country, you should leave.

madawaskan said...

Lyssa-Hoosier

Yep. Free the states from having a right to any self governance.

Hoosier-

I think Kucinich flipped too easily-after only one plane ride- for it to be "sudden rationalization" about the bill on his part.

The foot in the door arguments were put out awhile ago by Pelosi in public.

Something about after this bill they will be able to kick the door down.

I can't remember her precise language.

NewHam said...

"Does anyone know if this mess will actually get voted on ..."

I can guarantee you the Senate-passed abortion funding bill will not be voted on in the House.

If Nancy Pelosi held a vote, the bill would be defeated, and so she cannot hold a vote. And she will not hold one.

She is planning, instead, a coup attempt.

Will our military step up and do what their oath requires when the time comes, and protect the country from this domestic enemy?

That is the only question left.

David said...

Have you seen Kucinich's wife? (Dreamy.) Heard her talk? (Funny and intelligent.) The man has heaven on earth. He even seems to be at peace with himself, true to his values and not overconsumed by ambition (for a politician.)

I disagree with him on about everything, but why would he want to change his life?

Hoosier Daddy said...

I really have no patience for the Conservative who sits around and feels sorry for themselves convinced that the American public is nothing but a bunch of lazy communists who would never turn on a government program once in enacted.

Well with the exception of welfare reform, few entitlement programs have been overturned much less reformed (unless adding more benefits counts as 'reform').

Sorry but the reality is the public tends to laziness in most political matters and will occasionally rise up and shout, much like we're seeing now. Whether it has any lasting effect is the question. As regulars know, I like to toss out movie quotes to make a point and I think this one from Gladiator sums up what
I think is a pretty accurate picture of the public:

Gracchus: Fear and wonder, a powerful combination.

Falco: You really think people are going to be seduced by that?

Gracchus: I think he knows what Rome is. Rome is the mob. Conjure magic for them and they'll be distracted. Take away their freedom and still they'll roar. The beating heart of Rome is not the marble of the senate, it's the sand of the coliseum. He'll bring them death - and they will love him for it.

Lets put it this way John, a good chunk of the electorate can tell you who won last year's American Idol but probably can't name one SCOTUS justice. More folks will be following the brackets than whether ObamaCare gets shoved through. My comment was based upon experience which of course is not indicative of future results. If this passes, we may very well see a major backlash at the polls in November. As I said, time will tell and hope springs eternal ;-)

madawaskan said...

Oh look it's the latest Ezrahism.

I'm going to pull a reverse-Brooks in this post, but break the rules and simply tell you what I'm doing at the beginning: On the deem and pass question, Democrats are wrong, but Republicans are wronger.

lyssalovelyredhead said...

david said: "I disagree with him on about everything, but why would he want to change his life?"

I agree. Rep. Kucinich is batshit crazy, no doubt, but I actually have a bit of respect for him. He's generally willing to go on the opposing shows and make his case, respectfully and honestly, and doesn't run from his positions.

And his wife is smokin'. Unbelievable.

Pogo said...

Physician Survey: Health Reforms Potential Impact on Physician Supply and Quality of Medical Care
New England Journal of Medicine
Mar. – Apr. 2010

Health Reform and Primary Care Physicians:
• 46.3% of primary care physicians feel that the passing of health reform will either force them out of medicine or make them want to leave medicine.

Health Reform, Public Option, and Physician Supply
• 72% of physicians feel that a public option would have a negative impact on physician supply, with 45% feeling it will “decline or worsen dramatically” and 27% predicting it will “decline or worsen somewhat.
• 24% of physicians think they will try to retire early if a public option is implemented.
• 21% of physicians would try to leave medicine if a public option is implemented, even if not near retirement age at the time.

Health Reform and Recommending Medicine to Others as a Career
• 36% of physicians would not recommend medicine as a career, regardless of health reform.
• 27% would recommend medicine as a career but not if health reform passes.

SteveR said...

Dennis knows that in spite of his objections, passage of the bill lays a big splash of KY Jelly on the slippery slope to a single payer government run health care for all Americans (including illegal aliens but not including members of Congress and certain members of the Executive Branch who will have a much better system).

So he just wanted the attention, there's no principle involved.

Mark O said...

So, after all this, he's just a regular political whore, willing to accept whatever he's told to accept and drop any pretense of principle.

That was all he had. Now, he has nothing, not even self respect, should he be capable of reflection.

madawaskan said...

Fox-is reporting new tally

212 for yes.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Dennis said he changed his vote after consulting with The Won, his wife and some close friends.

I wonder what the position of his constituency is on the subject and if he checked with them?

c3 said...

As a physician I have sympathy with the sentiment of access to healthcare regardless of income (and no I don't mean just the ER).

Having said that, I'm deeply concerned about the costs we are incurring

And if Government becomes the key manager of healthcare it will eventually have to address cost (not that its addressing it now) and it will do so in "perverse" ways that will lead to unintended if not catastrophic consequences.

At present we have the docs and the hospitals supporting Obamacare "in principle". Here's an editorial from Boston about possible future changes to Mass Care. Not surprisingly, Mass didn't initially address costs and now it will do what government does when it needs to control costs; it price fixes. And what happens when government "fixes" prices?

madawaskan said...

Earlier they got Ann Kirkpatrick from AZ now thehill.com is reporting these updates-

Raul Grijalva (Ariz.) (Y) Arizona Daily Star reports Grijalva is a likely yes.

John Garamendi (Calif.) (Y) Vowed last summer to vote against any bill without a public option, but his office says Garamendi is a firm yes and will keep fighting for the public option.

Gabrielle Giffords (Ariz.) (Y) GOP target will likely vote yes, according to Arizona Daily Star


Wow looks like they really flipped Arizona.

Chip Ahoy said...

Know why this legislation has a front door AND a back door?

Because if it had any more doors it'd be a sedan and not a coupe.

madawaskan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
madawaskan said...

I think its biggest door is like that one you find on a union suit.

NewHam said...

"Not surprisingly, Mass didn't initially address costs and now it will do what government does when it needs to control costs; it price fixes. And what happens when government "fixes" prices?"

It starts rationing care and creating death panels.

c3, I appreciate your compassion, but you have just explained why good-hearted attempts to create government access to healthcare regardless of income are pointless and lead directly to outcomes sadly similar to that experienced by the UK health service.

Once the government gets involved, it rations. Period. There is no government ever that did not. Ever. In history. They always do it.

Free health care in this country has always existed without this government intrusion and price fixing (Catholic Charities, teaching hospitals, etc.)

That system has worked very, very well ... and now your brethren in the AMA are advocating breaking that system.

Shame on your entire goddamn profession.

I will spit in my doctor's face next time I see him. And then I'll fire his ass.

jayne_cobb said...

This seems like bad news for the opposition to the current bills but I am not quite disheartened.

First of all the President himself had to go after Dennis Kucinich. Let me rephrase that: The most powerful man in the world had to personally beg for the vote of a man considered loopy by pretty much everybody in politics.

Secondly, Pelosi just called all female democrats to an unplanned meeting. The only thing which could seemingly be at issue would be abortion (i.e. Stupak's votes). To have an emergency meeting would suggest that she doesn't have the votes without his group (or most of them) and is therefore asking them to bite the bullet on the issue (which they won't).

Now I'm not saying they don't have the votes or that they won't get them, but the fact of the matter is that they are seriously hard up for votes.

garage mahal said...

Physician Survey: Health Reforms Potential Impact on Physician Supply and Quality of Medical Care
New England Journal of Medicine
Mar. – Apr. 2010


What the?

The opinions expressed in the article linked to above represent those of The Medicus Firm only. That article does not represent the opinions of the New England Journal of Medicine or the Massachusetts Medical Society.

jayne_cobb said...

Ike Skelton just said that he's a no vote.

Anyone know what that brings the counts to?

Pogo said...

"That article does not represent the opinions of the New England Journal of Medicine or the Massachusetts Medical Society."

No shit, garage; it's a survey.
Someone -not the NEJM- did the survey.
NEJM published it.
It's not an editorial itself, it is a survey about physician opinions.

Try again.

Pogo said...

"Shame on your entire goddamn profession."

Be fair, NewHam.
I quit the AMA just last month over their support.

If I cannot find a job in another country, I will cut my hours and get an administrative position.

Forget patient care.
Why bother?

jayne_cobb said...

As for why Kucinich suddenly changed, I am not quite sure.

Perhaps he heard this plan would lower premiums 3000%.

garage mahal said...

The NEJM did not publish the survey. You've been duped by whatever right wing site that was peddling it. NEJM claims that they "neither conducted nor published the "survey."

garage mahal said...

As for why Kucinich suddenly changed, I am not quite sure

I thought Democrats were passing this without even voting!?

Round and round we go.

dick said...

Garage,

Then why was it on the New England Journal of Medicine Jobs website then if they didn't publish it. Their website carried the links to the survey.

Pogo said...

Funny!

The New England Journal Jobs site had a completely different page up before, obviously formatted by the NEJM.

Now it's gone, replaced by a disclaimer.

Curiouser and curiouser.
But then the NEJM is a single payer lefty rag anyway, so no shocker.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Pogo,

Not sure what garage is talking about (no surprise) but this is what I see on the link you provided:

Recruiting Physicians Today is a free advertiser newsletter published by the Worldwide Advertising Sales and Marketing Department in the publishing division of the Massachusetts Medical Society. Each issue of the newsletter features research and content produced by physician recruiting firms and other independent groups involved in physician employment.

On December 17, 2009 The Medicus Firm, a national physician search firm based in Dallas and Atlanta, published the results of a survey they conducted with 1,000 physicians regarding their attitudes toward health reform. To read their survey results at The Medicus Firm website, click here.

The opinions expressed in the article linked to above represent those of The Medicus Firm only. That article does not represent the opinions of the New England Journal of Medicine or the Massachusetts Medical Society.


I guess to garage, publishing the survey and providing a link to said survey are completely different.

Big Mike said...

Seriously, if you have such a low opinion of the country, you should leave.

Well, I have a low opinion of the public in this country but I ain't leaving because I have an even lower opinion of the public in every other country.

Michael said...

I pay around 12K annually in health insurance. Our president suggested that after HC passes my premiums will go down by as much as 3,000 percent. Our idiot president is asking me to believe that I will get a check for $348,000 from my insurer? I deem him incompetent.

Roger J. said...

What Big Mike said. The republic will survive all of this bull shit. It survived the alien and sedition acts, it survived the civil war, it survived the great depression, and it will survive this current administration and its associated policies.

Of course, I am 68 years old, have prostate cancer, and don't really give a damn what happens to anyone under 65--but I got mine, and you will get yours; ie,not much.

Balls in your court people. Glad I have a limited time horizon. The rest of you--not so much.

Pogo said...

The link changed since I made the post this morning (it was on Instapundit first, natch).

It was at first a table which I posted almost verbatim.

That has disappeared.
Now it's a disclaimer and a link.

Curious. But as i said, the NEJM editors are a bunch of Marxists so, no surprise.

Peter V. Bella said...

Kucinich is a lying flip flopper. He must have a district just like Pelosi's. Only bonifide entitlement slackers, dope smokers, and intellectual idiots would vote for him.

The Republicans can do the same thing Pelosi is doing to repeal this bill. Use all the same tricks. I hope they do. Thena, ram a real reform bill down the President's throat. One that is short, readable, and understandable. One that has no tricks, deals, gimmicks, or mandated insurance scams. Just reform.

BTW, they should also make the administration prove over 30 million people do not have health care.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Laugh now if you must, but you won't be laughing when Ohio taxpayers alone are exempted from the Alien Abduction Therapy Surcharge.

Michael said...

Roger J: Sorry about the prostate. Good luck with whatever approach you are taking. I have had two negative biopsies but figure it is only a matter of time. Under Obamacare it probably won't make any difference since the better treatments will probably be too expensive.

The country will survive and might prosper once we employ the splendid technique of deeming bills passed without having to vote on them. It is only a matter of time before the worm turns and the Republicans will be using this maneuver to eliminate capital gains taxes entirely and perhaps rescinding some of the nonsense that has been heaped on us these last few years.

Roger J. said...

Michael--thanks for the kind words--much appreciated. With respect to prostate cancer the only thing you are likely to see is a diminution in psa testing which, of late, is coming under fire because of the high rate of false positives, which, in turn generate more testing.

Of course,at this point there is no alternative to PSA testing so I suppose the option is to hope you dont have prostate cancer and hope you will outlive it.

That said, I agree entirely with your points about the state of the democratic party in congress--the only good thing that will come of this is the sorry bastards will be voted out at some point, and then the republicans can return the favor.

A sad commentary on our political system.

Cheers

Big Mike said...

@Roger, I'm just a few years behind you. What's the prognosis on your cancer? Hope something can be done.

There is an alternative to PSA, but I enjoy it much less than Andrew Sullivan (presumably) does.

Big Mike said...

Could somebody explain Ohio politics to me in 100 words or less? I mean, isn't Kucinich the "boy mayor" who famously drove Cleveland off a cliff and into default? What sort of turd-eating fools would elect him to anything?

c3 said...

Hambone;
I believe you misread my post. I fully understand the negative consequences of governmentally run/controlled/influenced healthcare.

I would disagree that our charity care "system" works very well. If it can't meet all of the needs then it may be "working well" but not well for everyone who needs it.

Do me a favor; don't spit on your doctor.

finally, re: rationing.
from lionel Robbins on economics:
"... the science which studies human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternative uses."

Assuming Healthcare is part of the economy then I would assume it will have to deal with scarce resources and.....(what for it)
ration

Pogo said...

The important economic question is not whether there will be rationing, but who will make the choices.

Methadras said...

Kucinich is an avowed communist. What did you people expect to happen? This is what he has always wanted. For Klein to elevate Kucinich as an ascended being only confirms Klein's adventure into insanity.

garage mahal said...

RogerJ
Good luck with everything, I hope it all turns out well for you.

SukieTawdry said...

madawaskan said...What the hell happened on Air Force One?

Was Rahm there?

Do they have a shower on that plane?

And what did Kucinich supposedly get...?


For one thing, I hear the little woman (she being one of the group with whom he consults about such matters--oddly, his constituents do not appear to be part of that process) is now a member of Michelle's anti-obesity team...

Turtledove said...

Sadly, I think this mess will pass. They are Democrats after all and will be bought off.

Roger J. said...

Garage--thanks Gene--appreciate the very kind thought!

Big Mike--prognosis is iffy--already had surgery and it had metasticized outside the prostate envelope--at this point intermittent hormone therapy is the treatment of choice although the side effects are yucky. But yucky and alive isnt a bad option considerfing the alternatives!