October 22, 2009

"It’s time for President Obama to do what it takes to win a war he has repeatedly and rightly called a war of necessity."

Dick Cheney rips into Barack Obama.

Well-said and richly deserved.

***

You know, Dick Cheney was once a student here at the University of Wisconsin—Madison. Have we ever done anything to honor him? I think it would be interesting to start a movement to have a monument to the man erected here in on campus. You could do a Michael Moore (or Uncle Jimbo) -style film project: Go around with a clipboard and try to get people to sign a petition.

153 comments:

Zachary Paul Sire said...

LOL.

Grab a clipboard and get to it, Professor.

PatCA said...

Yep, Cheney is right. Evan Mahoney or citizen filmmakers, go to it!

BTW Ace of Spades has one of their "tribute" posts to Cheney. Content warning, but it is hilarious.

MadisonMan said...

Maybe people can do some Cheney praise during their Windows 7 Launch Party.

Riece said...

Hey, did you know Lifehacker used a picture of you on a post yesterday? I was scanning my Reader and wondered for a moment if I'd accidentally clicked a different feed.

Seemed funny to me, but less so now that I am explaining...

http://lifehacker.com/5386722/get-it-wrong-before-you-google-to-learn-it-better

former law student said...

Well-said and richly deserved.

Some self-serving statements about an admitted last-minute assessment of the situation in Afghanistan? I thought W.'s procrastination regarding his weekend summit for peace in the Middle East was bad.

(And Cheney's nostalgic plan to refight the Cold War is gratuitous at best.)

But Obama does indeed need to figure out what we want to do in Afghanistan. Rebuilding Iraq has left us broke -- we cannot rebuild another country.

TosaGuy said...

I would pay money to see Cheney debate Obama on foreign and defense policy.

Scott M said...

@FLS

Rebuilding Iraq has left us broke -- we cannot rebuild another country.

In all fairness, I could probably fund the rebuilding of Afghanistan given what it was before we got there :)

More seriously, I would like to see some figures about the cost of infrastructure and security since 2003 in Iraq (a net, not gross) compared to TARP, bailouts, and this administration's stimulus package if we're going talk about "what made us broke".

Chip Ahoy said...

PatCA, that's the funniest thing I've read online in seven lifetimes.

Christopher said...

Of course Black Narcissus called it a "war of necessity."

He also swore he never heard anything but sweetnes and light pass the lips of Jeremiah Wright. He swore that if only we passed the stimulus, unemployment wouldn't go over 8%. He swore he wrote "Dreams of My Father," or whtever that meretricious piece of gasbaggery is called.

He didn't mean any of it. He's a liar. He has always been a liar. And now, because 52% of this coutry are a bunch of goddamned idiots, good men will die because he's a liar. But who cares? Not President Shortpants. If they're not befuddled children, soldiers are all racist white trash Faux News-watching dittohead teabaggers anyway. "Screw them," in the words of the Democrats' most eloquent spokesman.

former law student said...

Bring back the Pail and Shovel Party!

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/Hoaxipedia/Lady_Liberty_on_Lake_Mendota/

victoria said...

Honor Cheney, please. Evil personified.

Beta Conservative said...

I think Anita Dunn would have an easier time getting funding for a statue of Chairman Mao than Althouse would getting the same for Cheney.

This is Madison after all.

Henry said...

vicotria wrote: Evil personified.

[last lines]
Kevin: Mom! Dad! It's evil! Don't touch it!
[Kevin's parents explode]
Kevin: Mom? Dad?

Daniel said...

Hey Christopher, in the words of your most eloquent spokesman (spoken to Senator Patrick Leahy on the Senate floor), Go Fuck Yourself.

If Dick Cheney and Charles Krauthamer had plowed head first into each other in 2001, the world would be a much better place. Can Dick please stfu?

Also, wasn't it time at some point for Dick Cheney to win a war he repeatedly (and wrongly) called a war of necessity, namely Iraq, rather than passing it off to the next dude?

Seriously, can he just go away please?

victoria said...

Daniel, we can only hope he shuts his mouth and goes away.

Alex said...

FLS - you still haven't answered what Iraq War has costed vs other things like TARP.

Freder Frederson said...

He also swore he never heard anything but sweetnes and light pass the lips of Jeremiah Wright

Bush and Cheney lied us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands (including over 4000 Americans). Furthermore, Afghanistan is still a mess because of that war in Iraq based on lies.

Bush also said "we don't torture" when we obviously do.

Bush and Cheney's lies--which amount to war crimes, are much worse than any lies or failures you can attribute to Obama

Scott M said...

@Henry

Time Bandits...loved it. Still do.

10 straight days of Python on Sirius's Laugh USA channel...love that too

Seneca the Younger said...

Get video.

PatCA said...

Chip, you're a Cougar Man, LOL!

Chase said...

It is becoming more and more disturbing that our present administration wants to continually play the child's game of "not my fault" and finger point rather than lead.

It would appear that the only strategy for next year's mid-terms is: "Hey- don't look at how it's not any better since we're in office! It's still not our fault!"

Desperation to have something on the board that can be percived as true action is driving the Democrat Party right now. 10 months and nothing!

Anyone here remember the tearing down of the economy Bush - high DOW, low unemployment - by the self-serving Demoncrat Party: " Well, people aren't "FEELING" that they are doing well". Of course, many of them have lost their jobs under Obama, so how do they feel now? Bet you most would be happy to be suffering under Bush again rather than being foreclosed on and having to accept welfare.

Oh, forgive me, I forgot we were including Democrats in that. They ARE happier to be out of work.

The point? This is a bad economy now, but it's not the Great Depression, which was so bad, it gave FDR 4 victories. Running against the past isn't going to work as well this time. I'm betting it won't still work in 2012.

Daniel said...

Hey Fred, Christopher also forgot to list Bill Clinton lying about a blowjob, as part of his list of THE MOST IMPORTANT LIES EVER.

Alex said...

Frederer - if Bush & Cheney committed "war crimes" where are the piles of stinking corpses? Where are the death pits? The camps? The gas vans? The mobile killing squads? Yeah I have a pretty high threshold for throwing around the phrase "war crimes". It can't be just ANYTHING you want it to be.

Ann Althouse said...

@Henry Thanks for the clip. Watched it, then clicked on the next clip YouTube recommended.

LOL. Talk about men in shorts!

edutcher said...

Bambi is praying for a Mogadishu-type defeat he can use as an excuse to bail out.

My God, he's even using the Winter Soldier as his foremost advisor on A-stan, we're told.

former law student said...

Rebuilding Iraq has left us broke -- we cannot rebuild another country.

Nobody's talking about rebuilding it, moron. Just keeping it out of the hands of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

In any case, rebuilding Iraq has not left us broke.

Trying to rebuild the Soviet Union has.

WV "ovena" Female, Catholic oven.

Chase said...

Can Dick please stfu?

The expected child's reaction from Democrats: SHUT UP! You Make me Mad! Shut UP! WAHHHHH!

WAHHHHHHHHH!

Democrat = Whiner / Fascist

former law student said...

what Iraq War has costed vs other things like TARP.

When I said we couldn't afford to rebuild another country, the US was not the "other country" I meant. Please amend my sentence to read "another foreign country."

Daniel said...

Alex, I'm not saying they committed war crimes by lying (which wasn't a war crime like torture is), but if you're looking for piles of dead civilians, you'll find them in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think you want a different metric.

former law student said...

Nobody's talking about rebuilding it, moron. Just keeping it out of the hands of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

and just how do you propose to do that, genius? Who will fill the power void once the West pulls out?

Chase said...

Oh Oh Oh,

Daniel the Fascist, You Are
Dumber Than Me

DO You Still Feel The Pain

Of the DO-Nothing Administration

Your mind has died

But you "see more" than I

Daniel you're a Child, in the Face of the Sky

Alex said...

Daniel - that's not going to cut it. 90% of those "piles of dead civilians" are courtesy of Al Queda death squads, not USA. You fail, you liar.

Alex said...

FLS - that's why we keep boots on the ground for the next 40 years in Iraq, dummie.

Daniel said...

Chase, close, except you didn't finish the sentence:

"You make me mad... because everything you said for 7 years in office resulted in the worst shit storm to hit this country in a really long time, much of which didn't have to happen, and now you seem to think that on the basis of your stupidity, you should keep talking."

So yeah, I'm a whiner.

As for your formula, do you think Democrats are whiners and fascists? Because then it equals 1.

Scott M said...

@FLS

and just how do you propose to do that, genius? Who will fill the power void once the West pulls out?

Wow. That sounds exactly like what some of the more rational geopolitical realists said from 2006-2008 in an answer to the endless drumbeat from the left over Iraq. I happen to agree with you, but wonder where all of your cohorts were in 2006-2008 instead of claiming the war was lost.

Scott M said...

@FLS

When I said we couldn't afford to rebuild another country, the US was not the "other country" I meant. Please amend my sentence to read "another foreign country."

A point of order.

I'm more curious about your what "made us broke" comment, than I am about the above. Pray continue...

Freder Frederson said...

if Bush & Cheney committed "war crimes" where are the piles of stinking corpses? Where are the death pits?

So I'm curious, what is your threshold. Does a Sergeant get two free atrocities, a Captain ten, a head of state, a thousand? Does each actor have a limit or does a country have a cumulative catch?

Daniel said...

Alex, first, someone who disagrees with you is not necessarily a liar. I do believe what I say. Second, we've killed a lot of civilians. It happens in war. I did not say it was a war crime. I just said that measuring by dead civilians is not the way to assess war crimes.

edutcher said...

A-stan is not a nation state in the true sense of the word. It's a confederation of tribes, Iraq without pretensions.

You stabilize A-stan the old-fashioned way - kill the enemy. Most insurgencies fail (except those aided and abetted by the Democrat Party) and you do it the way it was done by Petraeus & Co. Make it so unhealthy for the bad guys they find something else to do - those that are still alive.

We'll leave a government that isn't too flaky and have a presence there (mostly some A teams, I'd guess), but nobody wants to occupy the place and you can't rebuild somewhere that was nothing but mud huts to begin with.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Eddutcher said: "Nobody's talking about rebuilding it, moron. Just keeping it out of the hands of the Taliban and Al Qaeda."

Yeah, moron. Nobody... except for McChrystal and Petraeus, whose counterinsurgency strategy MOST DEFINITELY requires Afghanistan to be rebuilt.

Eddutcher, your not simply a moron. You are a sneering, self-righteous jerk of a moron. Well done.

Dick Cheney can burn in hell. I wonder in what universe DOUBLING the number of troops in theater since his spiraling catastrophe of an administration is "dithering".

Not pouring hundreds of thousands of troops into a situation where we don't even have a reliable partner in the national government isn't dithering. It's a modicum of intelligence, which apparently drained out of the Republican party some time ago.

Henry said...

Who will fill the power void once the West pulls out?

I think Afghanistan is mostly just void.

I feel quite uncertain about whether or not the war in Afghanistan is good policy. But there's no question that in the 2008 campaign Obama seized upon Afghanistan as the "good war" that Bush was ignoring.

Some would say (by "some" I mean "me") that Obama's tough guy act was pure make believe. Afghanistan wasn't important to him because he had any real commitment to understanding U.S. global military strategy. It was important to him to use as a foil to "Bush's war" in Iraq. He was doing nothing more than parroting the nitwits who demanded that Bush produce Obama's body. He was standing on the shoulders of the midgets.

When you play petty political games with really important decisions -- such as whether or not to put U.S. troops in a combat zone -- you deserve to be called out.

Even if the calling out is by Mr. Evil.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

How about 'The Dick Cheney Memorial Peace Pole'.

Of course, that's too much to say, so everyone would just shorten it to 'The Dick'.

Daniel said...

Henry, I think you're right. It was like the insurance mandate -- mostly about campaigning, not governing. Obama's serious about it now, and probably wasn't then. If you had to choose that or the opposite, you'd choose that, right?

AJ Lynch said...

Montagne said this the other day in defense of Mao:

"10/21/09
Montagne Montagne defense of Chairman Mao:....
"The effects of Mao's policies are not equivalent to his writings. Nowhere did Mao write, "We must starve 50 million peasants for the good of China." That happened as a consequence of his policies, which aren't at all required to be equivalent to his stated philosophies. Why this even has to be pointed out suffers my patience. I think there are fools about."

So on your scale of evil, is Mao more evil than Cheyney?

Montagne Montaigne said...

I love how in the speech Cheney says

"In the fall of 2008, fully aware of the need to meet new challenges being posed by the Taliban, we dug into every aspect of Afghanistan policy"

Fall of 2008. So, yeah, bases covered. Totally didn't ignore Afghanistan. Over to you, Obama. Don't blame us! We only managed the war for SEVEN YEARS, longer than World War II. Don't blame us!

Is the Bush administration responsible for anything that happened from 2000-2008?

bearbee said...

Musical Ode to Obama

you better hold on tighter
this plane is gonna crash
I knew it couldn't last
held together by folding paper

the pilot has gone missing
and there's no way to land this thing
I knew it was gonna crash
paper airplane drifting to the sun


wv-messa: that in which we now are.

Diamondhead said...

Daniel's right: Bush didn't lie.

Montagne Montaigne said...

AJ Lynch! One of the fools I mentioned. Thanks for making no sense whatsoever. "He said Mao! That means he loves Mao! DhimmycratsocialistnazihitlerObama!!!!"

Do you even know how to read?

Henry said...

Daniel wrote: "If you had to choose that or the opposite, you'd choose that, right?"

Certainly, though Obama still seems to be dithering. Contra to Montagne's assertion, the issue isn't about how many troops are in a theater but what their mission is and whether or not there's the political commitment to give them the resources to achieve it.

I think consolidating in Iraq is the right move (hell, maybe we go Biden in Afghanistan), but that is exactly the opposite of what Obama campaigned on.

There are some things that a politician shouldn't be deceptive about, even in a campaign. Obama was deceptive.

edutcher said...

Montagne Montaigne said...

Yeah, moron. Nobody... except for McChrystal and Petraeus, whose counterinsurgency strategy MOST DEFINITELY requires Afghanistan to be rebuilt.

No, the troops are there to protect the people who take a stand against the bad guys. As I said, there really isn't anything in the country to rebuild.

No infrastructure. Nada, kind of like the "hundreds of thousands" killed by Bushitler, right?

But I thought The Won had made up his mind - after Pelosi Galore called A-stan the Good War on Terror. He was going to go in there like MacArthur returning to the Philippines. Or was it PeeWee Herman at the porno theater?

Stan said...

The comments on this thread are too mush. What a strange and bizarre place it must be where lefties live. Humpty Dumpty claimed the right to have words mean whatever he wanted them to mean. Liberals have taken him one step beyond and now bombard us with "facts" as well which have no basis in reality.

Should someone invite them to return from their looking glass world? Or would we be better off leaving them there mired in their alternate reality?

lucid said...

@Althouse:

Brave woman, I am awestruck by your awesomeness. This is the first suggestion I have seen anywhere by a moderate saying anything good about Cheney. Wow. Are they arching on your office yet? Keith Olbermann is likely to be nominating you for worst person in the world!!

I don't know if all readers here appreciate what you expose yourself to in academia by the positions you have been willing to take publicly.

You are doing a lot of good for free speech and free thinking.

Father Martin Fox said...

Freder: "Bush and Cheney lied us into a war..."

There are lots of sound criticisms of Bush and Cheney (I was never for these guys fwiw), but the "Bush lied" thing about Iraq is so dopey it defies explanation.

If Bush knew there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then going out of his way to lie and say there were was galactically stupid. What, he didn't know that when he got there, he'd have to explain where the WMDs were? "D'oh, never thought of that!"

If Bush did lie about the WMDs, then it stands to reason he would be morally depraved enough to plan to have WMDs "found" -- easy enough to do that. Only that didn't happen. Why not?

It's not that I'm shocked to consider that Bush may have been a liar. But don't liars prefer not to get caught? Can anyone propose a scenario in which a lie would be even more certain to blow up extravagantly in the liar's face than this alleged lie?

The most plausible explanation is that Bush believed there were WMDs. So did a lot of other folks, presumably reasonably intelligent and not the devil, which we stipulate for the sake of argument that Bush is. And all that made a lot of us believe it or take it seriously. After all, it seemed incredible that Hussein would bluff--and yet, that's what he said he did.

chickenlittle said...

Bring back the Pail and Shovel Party!

@FLS: I have a great photo of Leon Varjian and Jim Mallon posing in front of the original for me. I will try and find it and digitize it.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Nearly all the money we've spent to rebuild Iraq had already been spent by this time last year. If that's the reason why we can't afford to win in Afghanistan, it would have been good of Obama to tell us so back then, instead of promising to wrap things up in Iraq so we could go on to win in Afghanistan.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Stan, care to point out any facts that you take issue with rather than simply assert your right to remain ignorant of them?

I'd like to point something out. During the campaign Republicans mocked Obama when he would be willing to attack inside Pakistan with or without approval from the Pakistani government.

"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," Obama said.

Right as he took office, the drones started killing Al Qaeda. Also since then, Pakistan stopped signing deals with the Taliban and mounted two huge offensives, in Swat and Waziristan, to fight its domestic Taliban. This never happened under Bush.

At the same time Obama added 17,000 troops to Afghanistan, the last of which got into place only recently.

Then the election happened. Karzai has lost any pretense at legitimacy. The government needs to be legitimate in the eyes of the population for the US to work with it, don't you think? When the McChrystal strategy that has led to all these charges of "dithering" is a total counterinsurgency campaign which pretty much has as its main objective the US winning over the trust of the people, NOT killing as many Taliban as possible as many of the mouth breathers on the conservative side seem to think?

"Well-said" Althouse says of Cheney. Althouse, when it comes to Afghanistan, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

traditionalguy said...

If we are not interested in defending freedom in Poland and Czechoslovkia anymore, and we like the Chavez/Castro/Zelaya axis coming from the south, then why on earth would Obama care which mountain valley in the tribal areas shown on maps as Pakistan and Afghanistan are full of our enemies or not. The dilemma for Obama is how to surrender fast enough to keep our enemies confused and real American leadership "marginalized". Obama's end game for the USA is not going to be pleasant.

AllenS said...

You can go back to the Clinton administration to see what such brilliant people such as Bill, Hillary, Kerry, Gore and on and on, and find quotes on what they said about Iraq having WMDs. Were they lieing? They probably were given the same information that Bush received from the CIA.

Bruce Hayden said...

Bush and Cheney lied us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands (including over 4000 Americans). Furthermore, Afghanistan is still a mess because of that war in Iraq based on lies.

My memory is that Freder used to contribute something of value to this forum. I won't say that this is his all time low point, but probably not much above that.

AllenS said...

"We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Hey guys, remember when president clinton invaded and occupied Iraq? That was awesome.

AllenS said...

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

garage mahal said...

Have we ever done anything to honor him? I think it would be interesting to start a movement to have a monument to the man erected here in on campus..

You are one funny gal Althouse.

Scott M said...

Hey guys, remember when president clinton invaded and occupied Iraq? That was awesome.

Hey, guys…remember when President Clinton denied armor requests to the Rangers in Somalia prior to the “Blackhawk Down” incident due to political expediency? Then remember how he turned tail and ran after said incident? Remember how that emboldened OBL (in OBL’s own words) to carry out further attacks leading up to that wonderful day back in 2001?

Awesome.

How about we get back on topic?

AllenS said...

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

MadisonMan said...

How about 'The Dick Cheney Memorial Peace Pole'.

I totally thought it would be a link to this monstrosity outside Camp Randall. The fungal phallis as I call it. But I think the DCMPP would fit too.

AllenS said...

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

AllenS said...

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

John Lynch said...

Conditions change. Just because the President supported the war a year ago does not mean that it's still a good idea.

If it's best for the country to wait, or to decline to increase troop numbers, then it is.

Lives are more important than hypocrisy. Johnson and Nixon and Bush made many bad decisions because of a failure to admit they had made mistakes in the past.

I'm fine with not rushing a decision to escalate. Kabul is not going to fall in a week. This is probably going to be the most important decision Obama makes, in terms of the number of lives lost. He should take his time.

I do believe the war is winnable, that it would take at least double the number of soldiers and Marines that are now there, and that the country should be aware of the length and magnitude of the commitment necessary to win the war.

If that is not possible, then the President should find a way to lose the war with the smallest loss of lives. I don't believe in mincing words about war, because that's what it would be, a loss.

But some losses are worse than others. Losing thousands of American lives in a war that we have not committed to win is a waste. Pride and hypocrisy are not worth thousands of lives.

traditionalguy said...

The honoring of Cheney will be done by the next President in 2013. She can order the Government Motors to cast the statue as their last act before being sold back to private owners.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Montagne,
"Right as he took office, the drones started killing Al Qaeda"

Do a little research. You will see that the significant increase in drone attacks actually started in Aug of 2008.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Montagne,
"I wonder in what universe DOUBLING the number of troops in theater since his spiraling catastrophe of an administration is "dithering". "

Doubling? In what universe did you learn how to multiply?

Robert Cook said...

"Rebuilding Iraq has left us broke -- we cannot rebuild another country."

Hell...we haven't rebuilt Iraq.

Or America, for that matter.

As to the topic of the post: yes, let's honor Cheney as he deserves...let's throw his torturing, mass-murdering fat ass into a Supermax prison and bury the key in the deepest part of the deep blue sea.

Bob From Ohio said...

The Iraq War did not make us broke.

Rebuilding Iraq from all sources cost less than 100 billion. Pe that right wing source Wikipedia:

"As of 2009, current spending in Iraq seems to have increased a bit with some consideration of new projects. Since March 2003,the figure has come to a tune of $50 billion (US Dollars) - as the amount appropriated by the US congress in relief and reconstruction."

50 billion. Plus some other relief spending and contributions from other countries.

The entire cost of the war in 6+ years per Wikipedia is:

"As of August 2008, around $550 billion has been spent based on estimates of current expenditure rates[1], which range from the Congressional Research Service (CRS) estimate of $2 billion per week[2] to $12 billion a month, an estimate by economist Joseph Stiglitz.[3]"

Apparently we are spending about 8B per month so add another 100 billion.

650 billion over 6 years. The stimulus plan is spending 795 billion in one year for comparison.

And a lot of that 650B was spent here for salaries and uniforms and rifles and tanks and planes and whatever else it takes to put and keep an army in the field. That is economic stimulus too.

Attack the war on whatever grounds you want. It is even reasonable to say we could have put that money to better use. But thinking that the Iraq war made us broke is flat out wrong and dishonest

Christopher said...

"Hey, guys, remember when president clinton invaded and occupied Iraq? That was awesome."

No, can't say I do. I do remember him biting his lower lip, moist eyes fluttering as he told us how we absolutely had to carpet bomb Serbia in retaliation for Milosevich's mass graves, and how necessary it was that such brutality and tyranny not be allowed to prosper.

Now THAT was awesome, wasn't it?

wv- 'gadlesie' - poor poppa Borden's cry right after the axe fell.

Diamondhead said...

As to the topic of the post: yes, let's honor Cheney as he deserves...let's throw his torturing, mass-murdering fat ass into a Supermax prison and bury the key in the deepest part of the deep blue sea.

That's high comedy. I guess you're hiding your pills under the mattress?

Scott M said...

Dammit, Bob. You ruined it.

Ah, well...as FLS doesn't feel the need to respond, once again, to a direct challenge on the facts.

We're broke because the leadership in this country, both sides, have zero idea what real leadership means and even less idea of what RESPONSIBLE leadership means.

victoria said...

Get out, get out get the heck out. Afghansistan,Iraq all of it, now.

1. Should have taken care of Afghanistan 7 years ago, but the Bush Admin had "bigger" fish to fry. How did that work out?

2. Should have never gone in to Iraq.

3. Get out now!

Alex said...

victoria - how would Bush have "taken care" of Afghanistan 7 years ago?

MadisonMan said...

I don't know what Steps 2-> n would be, as n went to infinity, but Step 1 should have been pursuing Mullah Omar, capturing him and killing him.

Alex said...

Madison Man - you talk about pursuing individuals in such a big territory as though it should have been easy. Then you blame Bush. So partisan.

Maguro said...

Madison Man thinks we should have captured Mullah Omar and then killed him. How bloodthirsty! I don't think even Cheney would've gone that far.

Montagne Montaigne said...

exhelodrvr1 takes the time to ask, in what universe did Obama DOUBLE the number of troops in Afghanistan since taking office.

The overall American force in Afghanistan has grown to 68,000 from 32,000 in 2008. --from today's Max Boot op-ed in the NYT.

Now, do we need 40,000 more? Max Boot of course argues yes... others say no... Apparently, according to Cheney and Althouse, even pausing to consider that is dithering if not high treason on Obama's part.

Idiotic. Moronic. Unserious.

Diamondhead said...

You are aware Obama became President in 2009?

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
paul a'barge said...

It is hard to imagine anything more craven or vile than this current Obama White House. Take note that in the last several months of the GWB White House a thorough study was made of the War in Afghanistan. A plan was devised to refocus the war and make that war winnable.

The incoming Obama administration asked the GWB administration for that report. And asked the GWB administration to keep secret the report and the fact that the Obama administration was receiving this report.

Then once in the White House, the Obama administration released their own plan without attribution or reference to the GWB plan even though the Obama plan was virtually the GWB plan.

The Obama administration then allowed its spokesmen to go on national television and claim that the Obama administration inherited nothing from the GWB administration and that the Obama administration had to start from scratch.

Cute, isn't it? You get laziness, secrecy, plagiarism treachery and dishonesty all from Obama and his crew.

And now Obama will not even implement the plan he claimed was his own.

Add dithering and fecklessness to the list.

Obama. A viral infection.

paul a'barge said...

So, apparently Obama and his administration staff studied at the Andrew Sullivan school of feckless dishonesty.

Nice. Not.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Ok Genius.

Jan. 2009: 34,400 troops.

Oct. 2009: 65,200.

Will be up to 68,000 by November.

THAT'S DOUBLE.

Source

Roger J. said...

Obama siezed on afghanistan as a campaign issue; stupid thing to do, but he did it. Now he's stuck with it. 10 months into his presidency he owns the whole thing. He's got lots of options from total withdrawal to massive surge. There are options aplenty--all we need is a president who can make a fucking decision--Cheney is correct about dithering.
Me? I'd get out of that shithole--it isnt fixable IMO. We don't need bases there--got them elsewhere.

Re Monty's assertion that somehow the brillance of the Obama afghan strategy (which is what by the way?) which has purportedly engaged the Paks in the war: Totally bogus. The Taliban and al queda, having for the most part been edged out of Afghanistan, are exploiting more fertile opportunities in Pakistan where muslim extremism is rife outside of Islamabad. To assert that somehow Obama is responsible for encouraging the Pak offensive is at best naive and bespeaks Obama's overwhelming ignorance of international affairs. The paks are acting in their own interest to save their asses from muslim extremism. As for drone strikes? been doing those for 7 years.

AllenS said...

Will be up to 68,000 by November.

How many of those will be combat troops?

Chip Ahoy said...

Uncle Cheney! And Uncle Rummy in one place. Awesome. It's like Emperor Palpatine and the Borg queen on the same stage.

I saw the text for this last night on Ace linked to The Weekly Standard, but I didn't know for sure what to make of it. Why was it printed as "Speech Tonight" and then immediately printed again, "As prepared for delivery"?

Oh.

Highlights then full text. But still, how does Weekly Standard get the full text of a speech not yet delivered? And further, after having it, who would need to actually listen? These ponderous questions confuse and frighten me.

The whole time I was reading it, twice, I was thinking, "This sure sounds like the things Uncle Cheney would actually say, I mean, as far as satire goes, I don't see much of anything funny in it." Except for rising from the dead, of course, rather like a mummy to deliver a smack down. Am I being punked again?

Hang on a minute, just one minute, shouldn't this be on Faux News and not CNN? Now I'm really confused.

PatCA said...

Bush and Cheney lied us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands (including over 4000 Americans). Furthermore, Afghanistan is still a mess because of that war in Iraq based on lies.

And I know where there is a photo of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand back in the 80s!!!!

LarsPorsena said...

You can also find photos of FDR giving Stalin a warm embrace. And so?

garage mahal said...

Thanks Dick. We'll take it from here.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Can't someone, anyone explain to me how Obama doubling the number of troops in Afghanistan is "dithering"? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

LarsPorsena said...

"Can't someone, anyone explain to me how Obama doubling the number of troops in Afghanistan is "dithering"? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?"

Best to ask BO's had picked general McCrystal. He's the one who says it's not enough. Since BO fired the previous Co and handpicked Mac, you might wonder if they talked about strength levels etc. Do ya' think?

Roger J. said...

Re dithering: What is the strategy and to what purpose are the additional troops being applied? And are the troops at the level asked for by the field commander?

Yeah, monty--it's dithering--some 30thousand plus troops, less than half of which will be combat troops, the rest combat support and combat service support, will have no major impact on combat operations in Afghan terrain. You might want to look at what the 10th mountain division did in Italy in WWII, in a much smaller area of operations, to get a feel for what is needed for that kind of terrain.
I do like Monty, by the way--reminds me of the other military idiot who was referred to as Monty in WWII. You do the name proud.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Monty,
36K in Jan 2009. That's not doubling.

Dithering refers to his unwillingness to make a decision on the strategy, despite his statements in March that they completed exhaustive review of the issues, and had the strategy and leadership decided on, and would be implementing it.

But apparently he hadn't actually read the documents. Sort of like the health plan.

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roger J. said...

To further amplify on the "doubling"of forces. In military terms it's called piecemeal commitment of forces--It makes it possible to claim you are doing something by citing the number as "progress," but because the forces are too few to get the job done, the piecemeal commitment jeopardizes the very forces being assigned into theater. It violates the fundamental principle of war called mass.

Scott M said...

"Dithering" is a relative term. If you have to repair the dike and only have one cork for 1000 leaks, successfully repairing one leak would, in fact, be dithering.

Cedarford said...

FLS - "But Obama does indeed need to figure out what we want to do in Afghanistan. Rebuilding Iraq has left us broke -- we cannot rebuild another country."

===========

FLS is correct. The present economic and financial collapse of America - and the trillion dollars we ended up spending in a futile attempt to "give the noble Iraqis a functioning democratic nation" - has to make us strongly question the sustainability of the 2002 Bush-Neocon theme. The strategic mission theme that we will invade any dysfunctional Islamoid nation and rebuild it lest it become a haven for a few thousand terrorists.
After or during Afghanistan..then what of the War on Iran to serve Our Special Friend Israel - and subsequent 30,000 per American debt to rebuild Iran? Somalia? What of the freedom-loving democracy hungry noble Somalis??
What of Sudan, once and possibly future home to a couple thousand "Evildoers" in 2002 parlance? When does that War to Save noble Dafurans and other noble Sudanese on the other side start.
How about the War for Noble Pakistanis, lest they become a long-term hiding spot for "future bin Ladens"? To pay for that one, we will have to sign away ownership of Alaska, Hawaii, Guam, and 3 West Coast ports to our "Evildoer prevention" lender - China.
Oh, and don't forget Mali, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, and maybe a return War in Iraq to prevent "another building in America being attacked".

Or, we can rethink the whole idea of endless global war to save people of fucked up lands even if they show Iraqi-level ingratitude for it as noble freedom lovers are wont to do - as the best 9/11 response.

Zachary Paul Sire said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Zachary Paul Sire said...

Althouse, when it comes to Afghanistan, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

To be fair, Althouse doesn't need to be an expert on any given topic to blog about it. All she needs to be is an expert at saying insane things, which she may or may not believe, to keep this train rolling.

MadisonMan said...

Alex, Bush as CIC did not finish the job when we went into Afghanistan. He was distracted, for whatever reason, by Iraq.

If Mullah Omar and bin Laden had been killed back then, I think things would have proceeded very differently. I'm not sure things would be better now, but that's a risk I would have taken.

Full disclosure: It took me 30 seconds to remember bin Laden's name! How embarrassing. All I could think of was Khomeini!

Gotta love senior moments.

Hoosier Daddy said...

To be fair, Althouse doesn't need to be an expert on any given topic to blog about it. All she needs to be is an expert at saying insane things, which she may or may not believe, to keep this train rolling.

Sounds like someone's time of the month.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Alex, I'm not saying they committed war crimes by lying (which wasn't a war crime like torture is), but if you're looking for piles of dead civilians, you'll find them in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I would really like to know how many of those piles of dead civilans were at the hands of US troops or from dirtbag followers of the nihilistic death cult known as the Religion of Peace.

Sorry but when some Islamofacist shithead self detonates in a market square taking out [insert number here], only a fucking moron can somehow trace culpability to Bush and Cheney.

Hoosier Daddy said...

If Mullah Omar and bin Laden had been killed back then, I think things would have proceeded very differently.

Well considering that I've seen recent videos of all the top Islamofascist shitheads except bin Laden, I'm going to stick with my assumption that like Francisco Franco, Osama is still dead.

MadisonMan said...

Yes, I waver between believing that most of the time, and not believing it occasionally.

Mullah Omar is alive, however.

Cedarford said...

Bob From Ohio said...
The Iraq War did not make us broke.

Rebuilding Iraq from all sources cost less than 100 billion. Pe that right wing source Wikipedia:

================
Incorrect, Bob. You are using selective numbers. Quoting what we actually blew on the noble grateful Iraqi freedom lovers...while not counting the 800 billion we spent on military support of defending ourselves from noble grateful Iraqi freedom lovers trying to kill us, or the actions of our troops trying to stop one faction of grateful freedom lovers from killing another faction of noble democracy-hungry Iraqis.

Add 100 billion for the actual initial kinetic war to topple Saddam.

And as game show hosts say...There's more!!!

We aren't out of Iraq yet. Still bleeding us of billions every month. The bill for "military equipment reset" to replace all those planes, helos with airframe lifetimes burned out in Iraq service...all the destroyed and/or use burned out MIAIs, Bradleys, trucks, M2 50s - now believed to be 70 billion..is not tracked yet as a war cost until spending to restore equipment inventories happens. Or the 60-70 billion, some say 300 billion that will need to be spent on future VA and private employer or Obamacare health care expenses of those who served in Iraq and suffered physical or mental disability from it.

Sorry, your 100 billion is laughable.

And it's "small change" but add in the loss of 28-32 billion Rumsfeld blew on upgrading Iraqi military bases now carried on the books as "investments" in America's "long term overseas bases". Inc. 9 billion spent on 6 "superbases" - if the greatful noble Iraqis throw us out.

==================
Anti-American and traitor Freder "I'd rather see thousands of Americans die than see an innocent until proven guilty Muslim fighter have his civil rights violated" - returns with the repetitous dumb Lefty lie that America "killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq" and blame for it goes to "Bush lies".

No, greatful noble freedom-loving Iraqis killed 90% of those greatful noble freedom-loving Iraqis of different factions. Al Qaeda killed another 5%. And we killed 5%...and in general, those we killed were armed men in civilian clothing seeking to kill Americans or engaged in trying to kill other greatful noble Iraqi freedom-lovers.
Was Bush 100% correct? No. Neither were Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK is what they asserted. Doesn't exactly make WWII, for example, "a war based on FDR's lies where we killed millions in war crimes...."

Cedarford said...

I don't even think you need a clipboard poll asking U-Wisc @ Madison students wild about honoring CHeney.

Just make up about 20 posters and hammer them in at random open grassy spots on campus. Add a picture of Cheney striking a Fairey-inspired Obama-like pose for visual impact.

"Proposed site of statue to Richard Cheney. Most famous and influential UW @ Madison Masters Degree holder ever. CEO, Statesman, Sec of Defense, Chief of Staff, VP, Warmonger. Contact President UW, or Board of Trustees to register approval or disapproval of Tribute Statue to our own Dick Cheney..."

Cedarford said...

Maybe a note underneath.

Note: The Cheney statue will cost taxpayers nothing and will result in no increase in student fees. Anonymous wealthy alumini donors have already collected funds to pay for everything.
Statue will be 20 feet high, surrounded by electrified fence, made of vandal-proof solid stainless steel.

Jeremy said...

Retired General Paul Eaton, senior adviser to the National Security Network:

"The record is clear: Dick Cheney and the Bush administration were incompetent war fighters. They ignored Afghanistan for 7 years with a crude approach to counter-insurgency warfare best illustrated by: 1. Deny it. 2. Ignore it. 3. Bomb it. While our intelligence agencies called the region the greatest threat to America, the Bush White House under-resourced our military efforts, shifted attention to Iraq, and failed to bring to justice the masterminds of September 11."

Jeremy said...

Continuing to defend Bush and Dick (and I do mean "DICK") Cheney after what we've experienced during their time in charge.

It really illustrates how incredibly dumb most of the local wing nuts really are, and how deep their denial goes.

Bush and Cheney will be remembered forever as the worst leaders in our nation's history.

You should all be ashamed.

Jeremy said...

Hey, Hoosier: Are you still interested in letting me tea bag you?

Let me know and I'll schedule a drop.

Synova said...

"I don't even think you need a clipboard poll asking U-Wisc @ Madison students wild about honoring CHeney."

I think Althouse's whole point is that the petition drive would be entertaining theater worthy of being caught on tape.

Alex said...

MadisonMan:

Alex, Bush as CIC did not finish the job when we went into Afghanistan. He was distracted, for whatever reason, by Iraq.

Nonsense, ever hear of multitasking? Besides what was Bush supposed to do - constantly yell in the commander's ear - GO GET MULLAH OMAR!!!! As usual you spout nonsense.

Robert Cook said...

In response to Allen S.:

"(Saddam) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."

Colin Powell, February 2001

"Saddam does not control the northern part of the country. We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."

Condoleeza Rice, July 2001

Scott M said...

What, me worry?"

Alfred E. Neuman 1954

Cedarford said...

"Islamofacist" is a rather unfortunate, ignorant and now-dated dated word that Zionists and Neocons tried putting in wide use to stoke up American support for Israeli Settlers (their foes are fascists like the Nazis!) or in their other choice from the Neocon phrasebook 'bin Laden is Hitler' and we are fighting "World War 4" (Podhoeretz) to "bring freedom to grateful Muslims in a calewalk" (Akerman).

Sadly for Zionist and Neocon wordsmiths, and the people who repeat their words as Gospel truth...radical Islam has little in common with fascism. So Islamofacism is as nonsensical as Corporatistzuluism.
It is a good word to keep people intellectually lazy and not understand what Wahabbism or Salafism is, what Shiite variant makes the Mullahs of Iran tick.

former law student said...

Statue will be 20 feet high, surrounded by electrified fence, made of vandal-proof solid stainless steel.

Should be self-cleaning, too. An automatic washer/buffer should activate whenever graffiti is sprayed on it.

Cedarford said...

Synova said...
"I don't even think you need a clipboard poll asking U-Wisc @ Madison students wild about honoring CHeney."

I think Althouse's whole point is that the petition drive would be entertaining theater worthy of being caught on tape.


I get Althouse's idea. It's a deliciously funny one. I suggested another variant. Possibly a better TV moment than a few students at a time confronting a "Cheney Tribute" poster with self-rightous fury. Packs of hundreds of anti-Cheney students howling with indignation - instead - in front of the President's house or pushing for a statue of Zarqawi.

A few years back, some spoofers in Denver drove PETA, U of C students, and various childless female animal lovers wild with rumors a wealthy businessman was going to donate turkeys to the poor. Except he was going to deliver them live in trucks. And suggested that in meeting the trucks, on their way from Nebraska and due to arrive next morning at 10AM...the poor bring their own knives and garbage bags..

Joe said...

Henry,

"I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called MR. Evil!"

Michael said...

Look, when the candidate Obama called Afghanistan a war of necessity he meant a war that was necessary for him to support to become President. He has achieved that goal, so I guess I am confused that Cheney is confused.

Cheney happens to be one of the few grown ups around which I expect is the reason the old 60s lefties hate him so much. Pretty plain talking and never talking pretty

AllenS said...

Robert Cook, you're making my point. And my point is this, the people from the previous administration are liars. They appear to be no different than Bush with their proclamations that Iraq had WMDs. I guess it took Bush to discredit those from the previous administration that in fact, Iraq did not have WMDs. As evidenced by what Rice and Powell had to say.

MadisonMan said...

I think a good question would be: Why honor someone who only attended UW, but didn't get a degree?

The UW tries to claim FLW as well, and I call bogus on that too.

garage mahal said...

Robert Cook, you're making my point. And my point is this, the people from the previous administration are liars. They appear to be no different than Bush with their proclamations that Iraq had WMDs. I guess it took Bush to discredit those from the previous administration that in fact, Iraq did not have WMDs. As evidenced by what Rice and Powell had to say..

But none of them invaded Iraq, and none of them trusted as their point man, Ahmed Chalibi, a man known around the world as an embezzler and thief who once fled Jordan on fraud charges in trunk of a car! It just cannot get an stupider than that.

AllenS said...

garage--

Had 9/11 happened on the previous administration, I have no doublt they would have also went into Iraq, to stop that regime from using their WMDs against us. You do remember 9/11 don't you? Remember the anthrax scare? How about the sniper shit in the DC area? People were scared, and nobody, and I mean nobody knew what to do. 20/20 and all that shit, sure.

garage mahal said...

Afghanistan sure. Iraq, I doubt it.

AllenS said...

Afghanistan had WMDs?

garage mahal said...

I think any sitting President would have hit Afghanistan. I doubt Gore would have invaded Iraq.

former law student said...

Why honor someone who only attended UW, but didn't get a degree?

Why not? Is Jeri Ryan (former seven of nine) more worthy of honor than Northwestern dropouts like Ann-Margret, Tony Randall, or Charlton Heston?

AllenS said...

garage,

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

[bold added]

PatCA said...

LarsPorsena,
It was a joke...

Michael Hasenstab said...

I have read, here and elsewhere, the statement that the war in Iraq was an illegal war and therefore Bush and Cheney are war criminals.

Perhaps one of the very bright commenters here will indulge me by citing and copying the specific laws that were broken, then posting a link to the court decision rendering Bush and Cheney guilty.

Otherwise, come up with a better bumper sticker.

Christopher said...

"Sorry, but when some Islamofascist shithead self-detonates in a market square. . .only a fucking moron can somehow trace culpability to Bush and Cheney."

Hoosier, you realise you've just described the entire Democrat party, don't you? Fucking morons, traitors, historical illiterates and anti-Semites. Although, I will say I did like C4's wailing about the "trillions" of dollars spent on those ungrateful Iraqi camel jockeys - if it were up to me, I'd take every single cent we throw down the rathole of government education and give it to the Iraqis. To paraphrase that idiotic bumper sticker, it would be a wonderful day when Iraq had all the money it needed to have a functioning democratic society and every public school "teacher" had to stand in rags with cardboard signs under bridges to fund their government propaganda camps.

Oh, and Cookie - I'll make you a deal. I'll support throwing Dick Cheney's 'fat ass into a Supermax prison' if, in return, I can boot your worthless, ungrateful, treasonous ass into a North Korean gulag where you can spend the rest of your days pondering the evils of the United States.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Father Martin @12:17 pm finds the salient point. Why would Bush and Cheney put forth the WMD argument knowing it was a lie and would be discovered to their detriment? They believed there were WMD's, Tony Blair believed there were WMD's, the intelligence agencies of the US,UK, France Germany, Italy, Saudi Arabia and Israel believed there were WMD's. John Kerry and Hillary Clinton believed there were WMD's. Saddam Hussein believed there were WMD's.

In any case, Bush's speech before the war began refers only to chemical and biological agents which Saddam had already been known to use, and to the possible future use of nuclear devices. As it happened, US forces did discover sizable caches of chemical weapons.

Now, something I've always wanted to ask someone in the "Bush Lied" crowd is, if Chimpy McBushitler and Darth Cheney are as unbelievably evil and crafty as you guys maintain, what in God's name kept them from faking up a few nukes or some barrels of anthrax to cover their asses? I mean, Obama would have no problem with that, right? The answer to that question is obvious-- they were too honest, and admitted to not finding what they expected to find.

peter hoh said...

The best response I've seen to Cheney comes from Adam Serwer writing at the American Prospect:

The Bush administration implemented a strategy of "dithering" in Afghanistan for years, and now that he's out of office, Cheney wants to lecture the Obama administration on expediency.

Gregory said...

I think it would be interesting to start a movement to have a monument to the man erected here in on campus. You could do a Michael Moore (or Uncle Jimbo) -style film project: Go around with a clipboard and try to get people to sign a petition.

Ok Althouse, you think it would be interesting. You think it is a good idea. Then do it. Actually, do it.

Not a chance in hell. You are all talk.

Blah, blah, blah.

Talk is cheap. Althouse is lame.

Robert Cook said...

"As it happened, US forces did discover sizable caches of chemical weapons."

I guess this is debatable, depending on what one means by "sizable," but if we mean: a cache of sufficient size, recent vintage and potency to present a real threat to any other nation...no, we didn't.

We found aging remnants, few in number and of weak potency, scraps that had been overlooked when Saddam had his weapons stores destroyed in the mid-90s. They might have made a few people sick if their contents had been leaked, but they were no threat to America or even to Saddam's neighbors.

Robert Cook said...

Allen S.

I agree, the Democrats you quoted bloviating about Saddam's nonexistent WMD were either liars or fools or both, just as the Republicans were and are. I don't know whether they (and the Republicans) all willfully lied about the WMD or whether they were credulous fools who believed what they were told by others, or whether they didn't give a damn, just assuming as a given that Saddam had WMD and were happy to accuse him without bothering to do any verification because it played well in speeches. Nearly everyone in Washington wants to look tough on crime, tough on drugs, tough on "the enemy," whomever he or they may be at any given time, and as opportunities to pander present themselves.

Saddam was a thug; he had at one time had chemical weapons and nerve agents; Americans had been led to have a (not unjustified) reflexive abhorrence of him; it's to be expected that corrupt hypocrites of either party in Washington would bandy about Saddam's name and accuse him of still maintaining and even building new WMD without bothering to ask for proof. Such reckless boilerplate accusations against the foreign enemy (or enemies) du jour are as easy to make as is the choice to kiss babies on the campaign trail.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Robert Cook said..
I guess this is debatable


OK, I'll accept that this is debatable. What is not debatable is that Saddam's illegal stonewalling of UN inspectors allowed these caches to exist. Saddam's use of chemical weapons is not debatable.

This is actually a minor point in my comment. You can't plausibly deny that the rest of the comment is absolutely true.

former law student said...

Why would Bush and Cheney put forth the WMD argument knowing it was a lie and would be discovered to their detriment? They believed there were WMD's,

After 9/11, the most important thing for Bush and Cheney to do was take action, lest the US look as powerless as we felt. But pulling a bunch of bearded fanatics out of caves in Afghanistan was a lot harder than it sounded. There was a known bad Muslim/Arab guy in Iraq, and Iraq could be subdued by conventional methods -- we had already ousted them from Kuwait.

At that point, it didn't matter if Iraq had WMDs or not. We needed a pretext, and WMDs were it.

Now, we know there were no WMDs in Iraq but no one really cares. People like Aaron are convinced we found WMDs. Bush and Cheney likely took a chance:

If we invaded Iraq and
if we subdued Saddam Hussein and
if we controlled the whole country and
if we had the time and effort to search diligently for WMDs and
if we still found nothing,
that still wouldn't have made Iraq a southern Sweden. And, we would have successfully defeated a bad Muslim guy, even if he wasn't the Muslim guy.

Plus our inability to find WMD in Iraq merely made the Iraqis look crafty, while trying to plant WMD would have been leaked by someone at some point.

Robert Cook said...

"What is not debatable is that Saddam's illegal stonewalling of UN inspectors allowed these caches to exist."

"These caches" you assert "existed" were garbage, leftovers. They did not confirm any assertions made that Hussein had WMD. They did not really "exist" in any meaning sense, just as the scraps left in the back of one's fridge for ten years or on the bottom shelf of the cupboard do not represent "provisions."

As to Hussein's intransigence about inspections, Scott Ritter has said that the CIA had been infiltrating agents into the ranks of the inspection teams in order that they could spy on aspects of Hussein's regime that had nothing to do with the finding of WMD. Hussein knew this and objected to requests for searches that were obviously spying expeditions. Even so, contrary to popular conception, Iraq did not expel the weapons inspectors in the late 90s; Richard Butler withdrew them.

http://www.fair.org/activism/usat-iraq.html

After 9/11, before we attacked Iraq, Hussein relented and allowed the UN inspectors back in, and gave them, after some initial obstruction, full access to wherever they asked to search. After four months in country, the new inspections teams had found no evidence of any WMD. Rather than allow them the several more months they wanted to complete their search and verify their findings, the Bush administration warned them to exit Iraq immediately, as an attack had been ordered and the launch date had been set.

Doesn't sound much to me like the Bush administration were too concerned with avoiding war by verifying that actual status of Hussein's arms. So much for our invasion having been the "last choice" option.

As for whether Bush, Cheney, et al "believed" Hussein had WMD, I don't know. Possibly some in the administration did, probably others did not, (as no hard intelligence existed to suggest such was the case). They did, however, lie. They never hesitated to state their claims as certainties, and they never offered equivocations to suggest Hussein "may have" or was "reported to have" WMD; they threw around claims like "the evidence is bullet-proof," "we know where the weapons are,"there is no doubt that Saddam now has WMD;" and "My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we are giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence. . . ."

And so much more:

http://micksussman.com/text/bush-intelligence.html

Even if they had convinced themselves that Hussein was building WMD, or even if, as I suspect, they merely assumed they would find enough left-over caches of weapons that they could easily point to them as "proof" of their accusations against Hussein, they certainly lied about the amount of proof they had--none--and about the extent to which their claims were pure supposition--all of it. They never even claimed the stray bits of weapons they found supported their pre-war claims, as they had enough sense at least to know this was insupportable.

LoafingOaf said...

Gregory said...
Ok Althouse, you think it would be interesting. You think it is a good idea. Then do it. Actually, do it.

Not a chance in hell. You are all talk.

Althouse is newly wed to a man who literally idolizes Dick Cheney as his #1 hero of recent times. Meade even goes on about his love of Cheney to strangers on pblic buses (Althouse mentioned this in a post some weeks back). No doubt she is getting special attention in bed tonight because she went to bat for het man's hero.

It doesn't change the fact that the Bush/Cheney Afghanistan policy was declared a failure by Bush's own analysts.

It doesn't change the fact that Bush/Cheney failed to capture or kill Bin Laden at the battle of Tora Bora or thereafter.

It doesn't change the fact that Bush/Cheney violated U.S. laws and basic morality, and undermined the American moral high ground on the world's stage, when they turned us into a country that overtly tortures.

You build the Cheney statue in Madison, Althouse. Commission it.

It will give us something to poop on.

Synova said...

"A few years back, some spoofers in Denver drove PETA, U of C students, and various childless female animal lovers wild with rumors a wealthy businessman was going to donate turkeys to the poor. Except he was going to deliver them live in trucks. And suggested that in meeting the trucks, on their way from Nebraska and due to arrive next morning at 10AM...the poor bring their own knives and garbage bags.."

LOL!

Oh, I hope there were actually turkeys for the poor or else everyone with sense realized it was a spoof.

One of the better things about living in the Bay Area was that there were lots of vegetarians where my husband worked and for the employer Holiday turkeys, they'd give their turkey to him because they knew he had a family.

Several years in a row we had up to three free turkeys.

I actually got a turkey from my boss when I was living in a dorm in college. Luckily it was in Minneapolis and the thing stayed frozen solid in the trunk of the car. :-)

peter hoh said...

it was in Minneapolis and the thing stayed frozen solid in the trunk of the car. :-)

Ah, yes. Our giant walk in freezer is about to get plugged in.

Each year, winter loses a little of its appeal.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Thanks Dick. We'll take it from here.


Peace in our time?

AllenS said...

Robert Cook said...
"Allen S.
I agree, the Democrats you quoted bloviating about Saddam's nonexistent WMD were either liars or fools or both, just as the Republicans were and are."

Thank you. That's my whole point. If Bush lied, then all of those Democrats also lied. It pisses me off to no end, that the commenters here, that always call Bush a liar, conveniently forget that it was the Democrats who first put forth the meme, and supported the idea that Iraq had WMDs. What was Bush to do?

What a little bitch Obama is becoming. Started off with his chickenhawk bullshit about getting tough in Afghanistan, and now that he's the POTUS, he doesn't want to be bothered. He'll get back to us at a later date.

Robert Cook said...

Allen S.

"What was Bush to do?"

He needn't have repeated unverified accusations, and if he really wanted to avoid war except as a last resort, he could have allowed the weapons inspectors to complete their task and provide an analysis of their findings. As it was, he sent the new inspectors in reluctantly, then aborted their uncompleted mission in order to launch his already-planned invasion.

As has been said here and elsewhere, the lies of the Dems notwithstanding, none of them initiated a war of aggression against Iraq. (Although Clinton continued dropping bombs in Iraq, in addition to the sanctions program, which has been alleged to have caused the deaths of many children and elderly in Iraq. Clinton is a fraternity brother of Bush's in the club of war criminals. Obama is a new pledge in that club.)

tomkraj said...

Cheney was at the UW - avoiding an education in Vietnam.

AllenS said...

Robert Cook, again, you forget one thing when comparing Bush to those other Democrats, and it is this, 9/11. You need to ask yourself, after knowing what those prominent Democrats had to say about Iraq, that if Clinton had still been president on 9/11, would he have invaded Iraq. We will never know the answer to that question, however, read what those Democrats had to say about Iraq, and you might find the answer.

Robert Cook said...

Allen S.

You're right, we don't know what Clinton (or Gore) would have done in response to 9/11. I don't think we can fairly assume they would have attacked Iraq, as that was a complete non sequitur, but...who knows? I remember hearing the calls to pursue bin Laden to the ends of the earth, which switched abruptly to calls to invade Iraq and get Hussein. I was startled. What?! Iraq? Hussein? Huh?

There was always a total disconnect for me and it never for a moment seemed understandable that we would foment war against a non-aggressive third party, and the government never provided any clarifying justification other than uncorroborated (and untrue) claims of Hussein's imminent threat to us.

IF Clinton (or Gore) had invaded Iraq as a response to 9/11, they would have been equally guilty of a crime for doing so as is Bush.

AllenS said...

And on that observation, Robert, I think we can agree.

WV: dinnuts

Donnuts for dinner.