September 29, 2009

Senator ACORN.

"Franken won by 312 votes. ACORN claimed to have registered 48,000 new Minnesota voters. If just 1% were ineligible but cast ballots, or had ballots cast for them illegally, and survived the recount process ... that's 480 votes, almost certainly overwhelmingly cast for Franken. ..."

135 comments:

MadisonMan said...

In a close race, I suspect you can find myriad groups who claim to have registered a number of voters sufficient to change the result had those votes -- ineligible or not -- not been cast.

Gabriel Hanna said...

Oh, but remember that voter registration fraud has nothing whatever to do with vote fraud.

Just because anybody who is fraudulently registered to vote, can vote as long as they remember to sign the right fake name, because activists like ACORN lobby for checking IDs to be illegal, you have no basis whatsoever to conclude that any one of those fraudulently registered people influenced the outcome of this election.

We have secret ballots and no IDs required to vote. Since you cannot connect any single vote cast for Franken to any particular fraudulently registered voter, this means that vote fraud cannot possibly exist.

rhhardin said...

It doesn't matter. Fraud only can affect anything when the matter is already close.

It just means you need 53% to toss out the scoundrels rather than 50%.

Blame the people who made it close.

AllenS said...

It's not fraud, if you don't get caught.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@AllenS:

No, you don't get it. Because the voting system is deliberately designed so that fraud is impossible to prove, then fraud CANNOT POSSIBLY exist.

QED.

miller said...

We should all just stop whining about stolen elections.

The Democrats won, and they now should be able to simply control all debate and discussion.

Let's talk about puppies.

SteveR said...

As nice an idea that voter fraud was the reason Franken was "elected" may be, the real reason is that the vote was close enough to bring that possibility into consideration.

They elected Jesse Ventura and now Al Franken. Its their state, mine has plenty of outright crooks in office to go after those that elect comedians.

Scott said...

ACORN's involvment is a non-factor, because for many years, Minnesota has had a very squishy same-day voter registration law that in practice has always made voter fraud very easy to commit.

In Minnesota, if you have a driver's license, passport, and college ID, you can vote in three different precincts without anyone suspecting fraud. Of course, it's illegal. But if you're a DFL supporter (Democrat), committing a crime now and then is no big deal if it gets the proper people elected.

Franken didn't need ACORN to get elected. His supporters knew the drill already.

Of course, if Minnesota had a clean voter registration system (like Oklahoma's), Norm Coleman would have been reelected in a landslide.

David said...

Well of course Acorn put Franken in office. The Republic will survive even an Al Franken elected by voter fraud. His one term in the Senate will not be hugely consequential.

But the Republic will not survive a press corps(e) that refuse to look at things like Acorn's obvious fraud, Congressional gerrymandering and election buying, Fannie Mae malfeasance, etc, etc, etc. The blogosphere has come just in time to try to save us from the willful incompetence of traditional media. Will it succeed? Stay tuned?

garage mahal said...

Riiiight.

1. A Repub can never lose an election, legitimately. There must be some other factor!

2. Conservatism can never fail, only we can fail conservatism.

The Golden Rules.

Rialby said...

Garage - whatever. Look back at how you whiners dealt with your losses in 2000, 2002 and 2004. Not until Democrats win are Democrats happy and is fraud defeated.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@garage mahal:

Slay those strawmen. Not one person has said what you were responding to.

In my home state we had thousands of fraudulent votes cast for the incumbent. Democrats usually win in Washington State, and the fraud didn't make any difference until the race got to within a few hundred votes.

Rialby said...

The Left is far more corrupt and willing to steal elections that the Right has ever been. Joe Kennedy said it best - Don't buy a single vote more than necessary. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for a landslide.

former law student said...

Why don't the poor vote for the GOP? Class warfare, pure and simple.

The whole problem started when we let non-property owners vote. The 24th Amendment eliminated the poll tax, but I don't see how it would bar a property ownership requirement.

I propose that only those citizens who can prove ownership, free of debt, of 40 acres and a mule, should be allowed to vote.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

Why don't the poor vote for the GOP? Class warfare, pure and simple.

Just make things up when you have no argument.

In another thread you will talk about red-state welfare, and be blissfully unaware of the contradiction.

former law student said...

ACORN disturbs the haves because it registers the have-nots. Have-nots tend to vote Democratic. Safeguards (e.g. Drivers Licenses) purportedly meant to discourage fraud also discourage poor people from voting. If poor people reliably voted GOP, conservatives would not complain.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:ACORN disturbs the haves because it registers the have-nots. Have-nots tend to vote Democratic. Safeguards (e.g. Drivers Licenses) purportedly meant to discourage fraud also discourage poor people from voting. If poor people reliably voted GOP, conservatives would not complain.

Poor people don't drive? Don't write checks? Don't have birth certificates? Don't have Quest cards with their names and pictures on them?

Since you can't come out and defend vote fraud, you have to make things up.

Paul Zrimsek said...

ACORN disturbs the ares because it registers the are-nots.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

I worked at a grocery store when I was putting myself through school. I saw a lot of poor people.

Poor people have IDs. They write checks, they have Quest cards and WIC, they buy cigarettes and alcohol, and in order to do those things they have IDs.

So quit making stuff up. Defend ACORN's fraud on its own merits.

former law student said...

Yes, if you're really poor you don't drive. And if you're really poor you don't have a checking account. That's why there are so many check cashing stores where poor people live. In Chicago you go to a currency exchange to cash your checks and pay your utility bills.

phosphorious said...

From the headline:

"If just 1% were ineligible but cast ballots, or had ballots cast for them illegally, and survived the recount process ... that's 480 votes, almost certainly overwhelmingly cast for Franken. ..."

Er. . . um. . . yes. IF there was voter fraud on Franken's behalf, then Franken was elected fraudulently.

And if a frog had wings, etc. etc.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

Yes, if you're really poor you don't drive. And if you're really poor you don't have a checking account. That's why there are so many check cashing stores where poor people live. In Chicago you go to a currency exchange to cash your checks and pay your utility bills.

What about cigarettes and alchol, fls? What about WIC and Quest? Do you even know what those are?

Come on.

Okay, fine, one of the provisions of the Voter ID Act will be that the state shall issue a free ID to anyone who provides a valid birth certificate.

Happy? No, of course not.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@phosophorious:

You going to contribute anything substantive today, or are you going to make up things to argue with again?

Amuse us, and explain to me the difference between vote fraud and voter registration fraud better than I did.

Henry said...

I think Franken got 313 votes in Broward County alone, and that's not even in Minnesota.

AllenS said...

Good point, fls, I have 40 acres and a horse, so I'm guessing that I will get to vote. I didn't vote in the last presidential election. The first time since 1968 that I didn't vote. If the only people who can vote are people with 40 acres, and a horse, mule, ass, or unicorn, then I'll probably start voting again.

edutcher said...

former law student said...

ACORN disturbs the haves because it registers the have-nots.

ACORN disturbs the law-abiding because it registers cartoon characters. These moronic pleas toward class warfare get very old.

WV "brathe" an Irish breath

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

This is what Washington requires to issue a Quest card.

http://www.dshs.wa.gov/pdf/Publications/22-297.pdf

One of the things they require is PROOF OF IDENTITY.

Do poor people NOT use food stamps, FLS? Then where do you get off saying they don't have ID?

Fine, one of the provisions of the Voter ID Act shall be that a state-issued EBT card shall be acceptable as ID.

Happy now? No, of course not.

john said...

Scott said - if Minnesota had a clean voter registration system (like Oklahoma's), Norm Coleman would have been reelected in a landslide.

Scott - about 58 percent of Minnesota voters voted against Norm Coleman.

On the other hand, about 58 percent of Minnesota voters voted against Al Franken.

Hard to spin any sort of landslide scenario with those percentages. Can you say "B.A.R.K.L.E.Y"?

peter hoh said...

There are a lot of "ifs" in a close election.

Add to it the wildcard of 15 percent of the voters going with the "none of the above" candidate, Dean Barkley.

If just 3 percent of those who cast their votes for the Libertarian Party candidate had voted for Coleman instead, we wouldn't have Senator Franken.

So go thank a Libertarian.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Riiiight.

1. A Repub can never lose an election, legitimately. There must be some other factor!

2. Conservatism can never fail, only we can fail conservatism.


LOL!

john said...

Peter - you're welcome.

Scott said...

John,

Barkley? His name sounds like he came from a Hannah-Barbara cartoon. Maybe he was a sidekick for Scooby Doo or something.

Anyway it's all moose farts to me. Now I live in New Jersey, which has the best voter registration system that money can buy. You can tell because all our Diebold voting machines vote for Democrats.

TosaGuy said...

Any Photo ID bill proposed in WI has had money set aside to provide FREE IDs to the poor that FLS speaks of. I would propose to go one step further, I would have the legislation provide for a state van(s) that go to shelters, nursing homes, etc. and people can get their state IDs issued and have proper registration done right there.

Any more strawmen that the vote fraud folks want to toss out there?

john said...

Scott,

He played for the Suns, I think.

You can tell because all our Diebold voting machines vote for Democrats.

I don't think O'Dell would have programmed it that way.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Why don't the poor vote for the GOP? Class warfare, pure and simple.

Pretty close:

GOP meme: Stay in school, don’t get pregnant, don’t do drugs work hard and you might succeed and have a good life. Do the opposite of those things and I guarantee you’ll not succeed.

Democrat meme: Where do you want us to send you the check?

Next question.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@peter hoh:

If just 3 percent of those who cast their votes for the Libertarian Party candidate had voted for Coleman instead, we wouldn't have Senator Franken.

So go thank a Libertarian.

Voter fraud is unacceptable no matter what the outcome of the election is or what factors decided it.

Can we agree on that?

I don't care if Democrats win MORE elections, as long as only those people vote who are eligible.

Poor people seem to have no trouble using ID to apply for government benefits or buy cigarettes and alcohol. Voting is much more important.

Scott said...

Peter:

If all those who cast votes in Minnesota were US citizens and Minnesota residents who voted just once, Coleman would have been elected.

Blaming the LP is lame. If the Republican's respected civil liberties and weren't special interest whores, there would be no LP.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Scott:


If all those who cast votes in Minnesota were US citizens and Minnesota residents who voted just once, Coleman would have been elected


You don't know that, and it doesn't matter. There is no excuse for widespread fraud, or activist groups taking government money to promote it, from the very politicians they endorse.

Scott said...

Arrgh.

Republican's = Republicans

eye kant tipe

Scott said...

"You don't know that, and it doesn't matter."

I don't know if the sun is going to rise tomorrow, either. But it's a reasonable assumption, given the facts.

Freeman Hunt said...

Anyone who claims poor people don't have ID doesn't know any poor people.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Voter fraud is unacceptable no matter what the outcome of the election is or what factors decided it.

Can we agree on that?


@**(@P^!%%~

I'm sorry that was me falling off my chair in a fit of laughter.

Um, no I don't believe you'll get that kind of agreement. Kind of how like using military force is bad unless a Democrat does it. Or how rendition was bad under Bush but a perfectly legitimate tool under Clinton. Haliburton was bad in Iraq but performed valuable and vital services in Bosnia.

The ends justify the means to liberals and if that means they have to register a few cemetaries to do it than so be it. You know, its like making an omlette.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@TosaGuy

Any Photo ID bill proposed in WI has had money set aside to provide FREE IDs to the poor that FLS speaks of. I would propose to go one step further, I would have the legislation provide for a state van(s) that go to shelters, nursing homes, etc. and people can get their state IDs issued and have proper registration done right there.

Any more strawmen that the vote fraud folks want to toss out there?

We've seen that in this thread. The usual suspects are not willing to accept even the easiest and most lenient conditions under which voters would have to prove their eligibility before they can vote.

They're not stupid. They know they can't come out and say they approve of vote fraud, so they have to make things up.

Anybody who is getting government benefits has some sort of proof of identity. I'm sure we can come up with something to make sure that the 0.00001% of the population who are homeless vagrants whose fingerprints were burned off by acid and whose DNA is not on file are not denied their right to vote.

Everyone else can show a state-issued ID of some kind. It is not an undue hardship.

Gabriel Hanna said...

Oh, and let me add that it is embarrassing that even Iraq surpasses the US in purple finger dye technology.

What's your problem with dyeing fingers, FLS? Don't want to deny votes to all the multiple personalities who may be citizens?

wv:shiess--what people who oppose voter eligibility verification are full of.

Alex said...

It's true the cons are scared as hell of the have-nots registering and voting in huge numbers. That would mean the end of the Republicans forever.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@Alex:

It's true the cons are scared as hell of the have-nots registering and voting in huge numbers. That would mean the end of the Republicans forever.

Right, pretend the rest of the thread NEVER HAPPENED and then you won't have to admit to anything.

john said...

Alex - Not at all. I'm only scared of ghosts (voting).

Montagne Montaigne said...

Vote fraud is the capital crime of the democratic system. It is tyranny.

Baseless allegations of vote fraud, however, are just another variety of political hackery.

You're no longer relying on the corrupt MSM, right? So when will a crack conservative investigative citizen journalist actually bring back the goods? Or are you content to live on allegations, nasty rumors, "Everyone knows it's true," and other bullshit until the end of time? I guess if you're not trying to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, why waste the effort?

Alex said...

It's a conservative straw-man that ACORN registered non-eligible voters. Bottom line is the have-nots vote 100% for Democrats and that scares the bejesus out of Republicans!

Alex said...

Monty - conservatives never need actual you know *evidence*. All they need is Glenn Beck aka Der Fuhrer telling them what is the truth.

john said...

Alex wins the thread - 50 comments until Godwin's Law invoked.

Scott M said...

@Alex

Saying in a politically oriented debate that 100% of anyone are for anything automatically disbars you from the ranks of the intellectually honest.

I know quite a few dirt-poor people (and yet they have ID) from my father's home town that are vehemently anti-Democrat.

Your 100% position is 100% unsupportable.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

ACORN disturbs the haves because it registers the have-nots. Have-nots tend to vote Democratic.

On Morning Joe this morning they told me that only uneducated rubes voted for the GOP. Anyway, I think the more accurate statement would be that voter fraud doesn't alarm Democrats because they know they benefit from it.

Just look at Wisconsin. Voting is ridiculously easy. You can register on voting day at the polls. Rich or poor, it doesn’t matter. The same rules apply to everyone. In this state, ACORN plays no other role than to overwhelm and undermine the system.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@montaigne montainge:

Vote fraud is the capital crime of the democratic system. It is tyranny.

Baseless allegations of vote fraud, however, are just another variety of political hackery.

You're no longer relying on the corrupt MSM, right? So when will a crack conservative investigative citizen journalist actually bring back the goods? Or are you content to live on allegations, nasty rumors, "Everyone knows it's true," and other bullshit until the end of time? I guess if you're not trying to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, why waste the effort?


Take your fingers out of your ears. It was amply documented in Washington State in 2000, but you were going "na na na can't hear you" so it must count.

http://soundpolitics.com/archives/003399.html

http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/003976.html

http://soundpolitics.com/archives/008195.html

The system is deliberately set up to make fraud almost impossible to prove, and you claim this is proof fraud does not exist?

Here I thought I was satirizing you!

Montagne Montaigne said...

Gabriel Hanna,

I once said that no instances of vote fraud had occurred. What I meant was, and what I have yet failed to see despite the noise, bluster, and smug attitude on the right, is:

1) An instance in which ACORN is proven to be responsible for even a single vote cast fraudently

2) Any proof whatsoever that fraud occurred in the election of Al Franken, the subject of this post

3) Any proof whatsoever of fraud in the 2008 presidential election

Those are the issues at hand. Now, have fraudulent votes been cast, ever? Oh dear, surely, on the left, the right, and in between, for dogcatcher, senator, congressman and president.

Balfegor said...

ACORN disturbs the haves because it registers the have-nots.

Uh, no, registering fake people is probably a little higher on peoples' lists of concerns than registering have-nots is.

And using felons to do it -- as apparently some ACORN offices have done -- is also more than a little squicky.

Paul Brinkley said...

Freeman Hunt said...

Anyone who claims poor people don't have ID doesn't know any poor people.


...After all, if you knew poor people, you could identify them.


WV "ingonsp" - not or insufficiently gonsp

Gabriel Hanna said...

@montaigne montaigne:

1) An instance in which ACORN is proven to be responsible for even a single vote cast fraudently...

So, because you cannot connect a given fraudulently cast vote to to given ineligible voter registered by ACORN, therefore ACORN is not responsible for fraudulently cast votes. That is what you are saying, and it strains credulity beyond all rationality.

I thought I was satirizing you, but you have embraced the absurd.

Suppose it were the NRA helping felons fraudulently acquire handguns,, and then I said "where's your proof that the NRA is responsible for any of these handgun murders committed by people who fraudulently acquired handguns"?

I think you would laugh at my blatant and dishonest political hackery.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@montaigne:

You are assuming that all the fake people registered by ACORN were magically discovered before they could ever vote, by people are not allowed to demand proof of identity before allowing them to vote as fake people.

If I show up at the polling place and sign my name as "I. P. Freely", I can vote and my vote will be counted, as long as "I. P. Freely" is a registered voter in that precint.

If handguns worked that way you'd be up in arms.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@montainge:

If it is later discovered that I am not really I. P. Freely, there is no way to get my vote back out of the pile--that's what "secret ballot" means.

Why are you so intellectually invested in a system that encourages fraud? Why do you oppose reasonable reforms to curb that fraud, such as giving out free picture IDs and requiring them to cast a vote?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Maybe one of the progressives here can tell me why it is so fucking hard to register to vote? I mean unless you change residence, its a one time deal. I mean for those of us who have to work for a living to provide for our families in addition to the families of the 'have-nots', I found time to get my ass to the DMV and register to vote.

Walk your have not ass to the DMV and do it yourself. Its not like you have anything else to do.

Paul Brinkley said...

Reminds me of the time my father caught a young girl in the act of picking his pocket one day in Rome. We all rode to the police station, where we were informed that they released the girl, since she had not actually succeeded in picking his pocket, and thus, had committed no provable crime.

To their credit, however, the police did not make fun of us for daring to report the pickpocket (ahem, would-be-pickpocket) in the first place.


WV: fumixt - infused with fumes; odorified

Bruce Hayden said...

It's a conservative straw-man that ACORN registered non-eligible voters. Bottom line is the have-nots vote 100% for Democrats and that scares the bejesus out of Republica.

It appears from criminal indictments that ACORN registered the starting lineup for the Dallas Cowboy football team in Nevada. Last I knew, Texas didn't have an income tax, so it is likely that the entire team didn't move to Nevada for tax reasons. There is the alternate hypothesis, of course, that it wasn't really the Dallas Cowboy football team, but some impostors. Buy you have convinced us that that is a conservative straw man, so, I am not sure what to think. Oh, did I mention the guy whose last name was "Mouse" who also was registered by ACORN there?

victoria said...

Losers will use any excuse to justify their loss. Cry all you want, Norm Coleman, out of touch. Bad candidate. Hopefully they will get wing nut Michelle Bachman out of office in the next round. She is nuts.


Field a good candidate, righties, you might win an election. Put up people like Palin, Gingrich and Romney, lose every time.

peter hoh said...

Gabriel Hanna asked: Voter fraud is unacceptable no matter what the outcome of the election is or what factors decided it. Can we agree on that?

I agree to that. I have no problem with some sort of enhanced voter registration and identification.

I would hope that such a system would also prevent people having their names struck from the list of registered voters simply because they happen to share a name with a convicted felon.

garage mahal said...

Maybe one of the progressives here can tell me why it is so fucking hard to register to vote?.

It's not! Progs have it down pat.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@peter hoh:

I would hope that such a system would also prevent people having their names struck from the list of registered voters simply because they happen to share a name with a convicted felon.

If you had to prove identity to register, this wouldn't happen.

A felon may share your name
but he won't share your date of birth, driver's license number, etc.

Hoosier Daddy said...

It's not! Progs have it down pat.

LOL!

Hoosier Daddy said...

If the 'have nots' can't motivate themselves to register to vote without ACORN handholding them how can we expect them to get a job?

Oh that's right they vote Democrat, they don't need to.

former law student said...

While I appreciate the photo ID truck cruising the poor neighborhoods, I like the purple dyed finger solution* the best -- surely a diligent fraudster could collect three or four photo IDs, but you'd need a virgin finger to be able to vote.

*Each US citizen would be implanted with a transponder chip at birth -- hey it works for dogs.

former law student said...

If the 'have nots' can't motivate themselves to register to vote without ACORN handholding them how can we expect them to get a job?

Oh that's right they vote Democrat, they don't need to.

Working and registering to vote are two different things: California Gubernatorial Contender Meg Whitman couldn't motivate herself to register to vote for 28 years, even though she was fully (and lucratively!) employed the whole time.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

ACORN disturbs the haves because it registers the have-nots. Have-nots tend to vote Democratic. Safeguards (e.g. Drivers Licenses) purportedly meant to discourage fraud also discourage poor people from voting

That is a complete BS statement. People should all be able to vote. ONE time only and under their LEGAL name. Not the name of a Disney character or multiple times in multiple locations.

There is nothing discriminatory in asking for IDENTIFICATION when voting to make sure you are the person who is registered and for which name you are casting a ballot. Driver's licenses are one way. You don't need a car or have to drive to get identification. There are agencies and charities, that will help people through this process and I don't mean criminal ones like ACORN who help you get multiple identities.

Even poor people can get an identification card issued. How else do they collect their Welfare benefits or get those cell phones that they are always talking on at street corners while holding up signs asking for gas money.?

There is not one iota of discrimination. It is merely prudent. You are making shit up.

former law student said...

Meg is a GOPster -- did I need to point that out?

peter hoh said...

Gabriel @1:26: of course.

I think there are good reasons to insist that voter registration is tightened up, but we usually hear only one side of the story -- that is, to prevent people from voting.

There are several things that need to be addressed in addition to better confirmation of voter identity.

Those who thought that the caucus system was unfair -- now's your chance. I don't want to hear whining about this issue in March or April of 2012.

We need to figure out a better way to handle absentee ballots, too.

I don't support instant run-off voting, but I think there's a case to be made that, when the margin of victory is extraordinarily small, holding a special election would be more fair, cheaper, and faster than a recount and subsequent court challenges.

former law student said...

The other unjustified assumption repeatedly made here is that every person too poor to own a car or a checking account receives a government handout.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Working and registering to vote are two different things: California Gubernatorial Contender Meg Whitman couldn't motivate herself to register to vote for 28 years, even though she was fully (and lucratively!) employed the whole time

So what? As long as she didn't vote while not registered, it is a non issue.

Voting is a privilege and a right but it isn't mandatory either.

former law student said...

There is nothing discriminatory in asking for IDENTIFICATION when voting to make sure you are the person who is registered and for which name you are casting a ballot. Driver's licenses are one way.

Middle-class people are far more likely to have identification than are poor people. Middle-class people have homes, utility bills, drivers licenses, library cards, corporate IDs, credit cards, etc. etc. etc.

In terms of voting, I have never had to show an ID. I showed my birth certificate the very first time I registered -- back in the days when drivers licenses were not photo IDs.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

The other unjustified assumption repeatedly made here is that every person too poor to own a car or a checking account receives a government handout.

Bullshit, FLS.

You said truly poor people wouldn't drive or have a checking account, and thus couldn't show ID. I retorted that truly poor people can get WIC and Quest, for which they need to prove identity, as well as buy cigarettes and alcohol, which require ID.

Not all poor people have no checking accounts. Not all poor people don't have drivers' licenses. Not all poor people are not getting EBT and WIC. Not all poor people are not buying cigarettes and alcohol.

But the vast majority of poor people are doing at least ONE of those things.

Yet you claim that NO poor person should have to show ID, that would be unreasonable.

You're trying to make stuff up. We're not going to let you get away with it.

Rialby said...

FLS - uhhh, way to go off topic. So, Meg didn't register. Presumably she didn't vote either then? Or have someone else fill out 5 ballots at 5 different polling locations across the state in her name?

It's VOTER FRAUD not VOTER LAZINESS we're talking about

Hoosier Daddy said...

Working and registering to vote are two different things: California Gubernatorial Contender Meg Whitman couldn't motivate herself to register to vote for 28 years, even though she was fully (and lucratively!) employed the whole time.

Certainly is FLS but you miss the point entirely. Its about motivation, incentive. If someone who works and pays taxes, I could care less if register or not. As a matter of fact, I think you should be required to have some skin in the game in order to determine how our government functions. I take a bit of umbrage when as a taxpayer, I have the same voice as the non-taxpayer who out of his/her own self interests is going to demand policies that will reduce more of what I earn.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

In terms of voting, I have never had to show an ID. I showed my birth certificate the very first time I registered -- back in the days when drivers licenses were not photo IDs.

Aren't poor people BORN?

If it really were about "it's so hard to have an ID", why do you oppose free state IDs for registered voters?

Or will you support IDs for viting provide they are free? If not, why not?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Middle-class people are far more likely to have identification than are poor people. Middle-class people have homes, utility bills, drivers licenses, library cards, corporate IDs, credit cards, etc. etc. etc.

FLS is spot on here. Poor people don't have drivers licenses because they can't afford cars which is why they're on bicycles and ricksaws. They also don't have library cards because we all know they're too ignut to read and they don't need ID's to have apartments or homes. I know this because I'm looking over the vast shanty town that is really downtown Indianapolis.

bagoh20 said...

"Baseless allegations of vote fraud, however, are just another variety of political hackery."

It's hardly baseless - they have been caught all over doing just about everything people suspcted and worse.

We all know that the concern about voter fraud just depends on who won versus who you wanted.

It is sad that few of us would honestly trust that any races are free of fraud. Consequently, close ones are likely decided by it.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Poor people obvously don't rent movies either because I have too show and ID when I rent movies at Blockbuster.

garage mahal said...

It's hardly baseless - they have been caught all over doing just about everything people suspcted and worse.

Cites?

bagoh20 said...

"Aren't poor people BORN?"

Yes, but the rich are made through years of ingesting Soylent Green

bagoh20 said...

"Cites?"

You can't be serious. Did you hear, we have a black President or should I link a story for you?

Andrew D. said...

Too bad that ex-Senator Norm "Sore Loser" Coleman didn't have a chance to have a hand recount and then the subsequent chance to litigate every single ballot that he thought might be invalid.

Oh right, he did have that chance and it turned out that all of his arguments were proven to be exaggerated and baseless -- just like this post.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@garage mahal:

Cites?

Jesus Christ. Pretend the rest of the thread doesn't exist and then you never have to admit anything happened.

Let me cut and paste from a previous post.

http://soundpolitics.com/archives/003399.html

http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/003976.html

http://soundpolitics.com/archives/008195.html

All reported in 2004 by the Seattle Times and Seattle PI.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@bagoh20:

I know you were trying to say that voter fraud is so widely reported as to be common knowledge, like the fact of a black president, but fls et. al are going to deliberately misrepesent you as a racist now, saying that we only have a black president due to voter fraud.

Cedarford said...

Hoosier Daddy said...
Why don't the poor vote for the GOP? Class warfare, pure and simple.

Pretty close:

GOP meme: Stay in school, don’t get pregnant, don’t do drugs work hard and you might succeed and have a good life. Do the opposite of those things and I guarantee you’ll not succeed.

Democrat meme: Where do you want us to send you the check?

Next question.


The problem in a nutshell, particularly when you have at least 51% of whole cities or States full of people that opt for the latter.

Henry said...

You can't even send your kid to public school without proof of address. I used a utility bill.

You can't not send your kid to school either, unless you send in a notarized form.

That does leave a population of nonsmoking, nondrinking, nondriving, nonworking, itinerant, childless folks for ACORN to track down.

traditionalguy said...

The old ditty about losing a nail leading to losing a war is apropos. The Acorn Registration Drives are OK, but the court decisions from many local jurisdictions that any policing of the system to eliminate Fraud at the Polls by a simple voter ID have made Acorn into king of the hill. Now we find that the Congressional grants have subverted our elections by Acorn grants. No wonder the Democrats want some deniability.

Pogo said...

More mistrust, thanks to leftist machinery.

I don't see the point of voting, unless we can have some identification. I can't outvote illegals and those who vote multiple times.

I remember posting my concerns about voter fraud in the Franken election here earlier this year and last November. I was right, it appears.

To say it doesn't matter is to me a spit in the face.
It matters.
Or at least it did; not anymore.
For voting is now meaningless; whoever can bring 5-6% of the votes by any means necessary will win.

Sham elections.

Bruce Hayden said...

It really is a bit scary. In some states, it appears that 40% or so of the ACORN voter registrations were bogus, and there is plenty of evidence that voter fraud is going on (see the links by Gabriel). So, less than 1% of the 48,000 new registrations by ACORN, if voted and fraudulent, could have swung the election to Franken, given the Democrats their veto proof margin in the Senate, and potentially enabled the passage of the approximately $800,000,000,000 "stimulus" package to Democratic constituents, ObamaCare, and Tax and Bribe (aka cap and trade).

But, hey, we are assured by the leftists here that this is all a figment of our imaginations and that it is a racist conservative talking point.

garage mahal said...

But, hey, we are assured by the leftists here that this is all a figment of our imaginations and that it is a racist conservative talking point..

I was just asking for cites, for proof. But I never see any cites when ACORN comes up.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@garage mahal

I was just asking for cites, for proof. But I never see any cites when ACORN comes up.

You can't see anything with your hands over your eyes.
SEATTLE (AP) -- Prosecutors filed felony charges against seven people in what one official described as the worst case of voter registration fraud in state history.

Meanwhile, in a settlement announced Thursday, the organization they worked for agreed to keep a better eye on its employees and pay $25,000 to defray costs of the investigation.

The seven workers submitted about 1,800 false registration cards last fall on behalf of Association of Community Organizations for Reform, which had hired them at $8 an hour to sign up people to vote, charging documents filed in Superior Court show.

Secretary of State Sam Reed said at a news conference it was Washington state's most serious instance of voter registration fraud.

But in interviews with Sheriff's Detective Chris Johnson, several defendants - while admitting they forged the forms - insisted they had been told ACORN would close their office in Tacoma if they did not improve their numbers, Johnson wrote in a probable cause statement.

One said another worker in the office told him "do what you have to do" to turn in more cards.

ACORN's oversight of the workers was virtually nonexistent, Satterberg said.

"Voter registration is a vital part of our work to increase civic participation," said John Jones, president of Washington ACORN. "We need to continue to do that work, and do all that we can to make sure that no one is trying to pull a fast one on us."

As part of the settlement, ACORN agreed to make improvements in its management, training and oversight of suspect voter registrations throughout the state.

The organization has run voter registration drives across the country, with allegations of fraudulent registrations surfacing in several states, including Pennsylvania, Ohio, Missouri and Colorado in recent years.

The Washington state probe began after King County election workers in October spotted apparently forged voter-registration cards among about 1,800 that were turned in by ACORN. The cards arrived a day after they were due for the November election.

Investigators determined that no votes were cast from the fraudulent voter registrations.

Charging papers said that in many cases, the ACORN workers flipped through phone books or baby-name books, picking names from one page and addresses from another.

None of the defendants could immediately be reached for comment. Some had unlisted phone numbers or numbers that had been changed, while others did not return messages seeking comment.

Dan Donohoe, a spokesman for the King County prosecutor's office, said he did not know whether any of the defendants had obtained attorneys. The defendants are:

- Tina Marie Johnson, 24, and Jayson Lee Woods, 19, who each face eight counts of providing false information on a voter registration.

- Clifton Eugene Mitchell, 44, the political organizer in the Tacoma ACORN office at the time of the alleged wrongdoing, and Ryan Olson, 28, who each face two counts of the same charge.

- Robert Greene, 56, and Kendra Thill, 18, who face one count apiece.

- Brianna Debwa, 35, the quality control specialist in the office, who faces one count of providing false information on a registration and one count of making false statements to a public official.

MadisonMan said...

Charged != Guilty.

I say that because a year or so, maybe more, ago (way before the 2008 election), people cited some voter fraud case in Milwaukee -- where people were charged. But no one was found guilty.

Pogo said...

Soomeone explain this to me then.

What exactly is ACORN hoping to accomplish, if none of the fake registrations actually leads to an extra vote?
What's the scam they're pulling for?

It begs credulity.

garage mahal said...

Gabriel
I'm not closing my eyes at all. Just asking for cites. As far as I know, there has not been one single documented instance of a fraudulent voter registration form that turned into a fraudulent vote. In almost states ACORN is required by law to turn in all registration forms, even if they know they are fake or incomplete. I'm not minimizing the half dozen instances you cited, but if that's the extent of it I would be shocked it's that small.

Pogo said...

Sure, garage, ACORN does fake registrations because, well, just because, man.

I guess it's their little hobby, fake voter registrations.

Pogo said...

Yup, fake voter registrations in multiple cities across the US.

No reason for doing it at all, but done by the thousands.
No effect on voting at all.
No worries.
All is well.

former law student said...

from seattletimes.nwsource.com:

No votes were cast in the names of the phony voters. Prosecutors said the defendants committed fraud in order to keep their jobs without actually registering voters.

King County election workers brought the fraud to the attention of prosecutors last October, after noticing that signatures on many registration forms looked like they had been written by the same person

The system worked; no fake votes were cast. The victim of fraud here was ACORN, whose employees cheated it by turning in fake registrations instead of going out to find unregistered citizens.

Pogo said...

"No votes were cast in the names of the phony voters. "

Now how exactly would they know that?

Where's the proof?

Did they go through each and every name and check it against the rolls?

Pogo said...

And it raises the same question: If it doesn't result in any votes at all, why would ACORN do this?

Does Soros pay them for bullshit?
Does Obama?

Bruce Hayden said...

The system worked; no fake votes were cast. The victim of fraud here was ACORN, whose employees cheated it by turning in fake registrations instead of going out to find unregistered citizens.

Rather, they were unable to tie any of the fraudulent voter registrations to fraudulent votes. Because there is apparently a fair amount of evidence that there is fraudulent voting in that county (from some of the other links above). These are mostly dead people voting though, and not cartoon characters and like registered by ACORN.

Frankly, from the complaints about dead relatives voting and their surviving relatives not being able to get them off the voting rolls, and the county not really doing anything about it, it appears (from the outside) that King county isn't too eager to clean this up. Possibly because most of those dead people voted for the people in charge?

WV: aircan

Gabriel Hanna said...

@garage and fls:

So you have both taken refuge in my satirical characterization:

Just because anybody who is fraudulently registered to vote, can vote as long as they remember to sign the right fake name, because activists like ACORN lobby for checking IDs to be illegal, you have no basis whatsoever to conclude that any one of those fraudulently registered people influenced the outcome of this election.

Because the voting system is deliberately designed so that fraud is impossible to prove, then fraud CANNOT POSSIBLY exist. QED

And neither one of you will explain why you oppose free voter IDs provided by the states to be used for voting.

Do you think nobody's noticed that?

Once your fake vote goes in the pile, geniuses, there is absolutely no way to trace it back to you.

You guys know this, and you are totally cool with vote fraud--which is you oppose reasonable reforms--but are too cowardly to come out and say so.

Instead, you take the absurd position that all of the thousands of fake voters are caught, before they can every vote, by people who are not allowed to ask for ID.

Your position is transparent and pathetic.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:The victim of fraud here was ACORN, whose employees cheated it by turning in fake registrations instead of going out to find unregistered citizens.


...several defendants - while admitting they forged the forms - insisted they had been told ACORN would close their office in Tacoma if they did not improve their numbers, Johnson wrote in a probable cause statement.

One said another worker in the office told him "do what you have to do" to turn in more cards.

ACORN's oversight of the workers was virtually nonexistent, Satterberg said.


Poor ACORN, the true victims! Let's help them find the real killer.

Gabriel Hanna said...

When more people vote in an election than are legally registered to do so, vote fraud is a fact.

But garage mahal and fls are playing semantic games, saying that since no individual fraudulent vote can be tied to an individual ineligible voter, fraud therefore did not happen.

These guys are not stupid. They say these things to deceive.

The fact is, if I sign in at the precinct as "I. P. Freely", and am registered to vote as "I. P. Freely", my vote gets counted. Even if I am registered somewhere else as "Gabriel Hanna".

And once my vote gets in the pile, it cannot be traced back to me. That is what "SECRET BALLOT" means.

Paddy O. said...

I am still left wondering what Andy Williams think about all of this?

former law student said...

And neither one of you will explain why you oppose free voter IDs provided by the states to be used for voting.


Mostly that's because I don't oppose it -- I think it's only a stopgap measure though:

former law student said...
While I appreciate the photo ID truck cruising the poor neighborhoods, I like the purple dyed finger solution* the best -- surely a diligent fraudster could collect three or four photo IDs, but you'd need a virgin finger to be able to vote.

*Each US citizen would be implanted with a transponder chip at birth -- hey it works for dogs.

9/29/09 1:39 PM

Next:

several defendants - while admitting they forged the forms - insisted they had been told ACORN would close their office in Tacoma if they did not improve their numbers

Message from ACORN: be more productive or lose their jobs: Instead of registering more voters they chose to cheat. ACORN's goal was more registered voters, not fake registrations.

Like any lie, fake registrations just lead to more trouble later on. Where do the fake voters come to vote under the fake registrations? THe workers too lazy to go out and get signatures are hardly going to cover up their lie in perpetuity. You need the genius and cashflow of a Bernie Madoff for that.

ACORN workers are not the only people tempted to cheat to keep their numbers up. There was a disk drive company in Silicon Valley years ago that was not as successful as they wanted to be. So, first they counted as revenue all the product they shipped -- whether they had customers for it or not. And then because they couldn't make disk drives fast enough, they put bricks in the boxes. They kept their numbers up but cheated their investors.

former law student said...

The fact is, if I sign in at the precinct as "I. P. Freely", and am registered to vote as "I. P. Freely", my vote gets counted. Even if I am registered somewhere else as "Gabriel Hanna".

Who's doing this? Who's paying them? Why don't the precinct workers -- their neighbors -- wonder why they've never seen them before?

The people turning in the fake registrations are lazy , not diabolical.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

Did you ever work in a precinct? Did you know all your neighbors by sight?

Don't make me laugh. You're seriously claiming that voter fraud doesn't happen with fake registration because YOU KNOW ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS BY SIGHT?

Why are you wasting your time defending this nonsense? You know voter fraud is easy to get away with.

former law student said...

We're not even talking about the Republicans' favorite kind of vote fraud -- voter suppression. This is where eligible voters are arbitrarily stricken off the rolls -- usually members of poor and/or minority communities.

former law student said...

Tell me about voter fraud, Gabe. Tell me about the vans ACORN rents and fills with stew bums, taking them from precinct to precinct to vote under the names of the Dallas Cowboy team of 1983, before finally paying each one off with a a bottle of Gallo White Port.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

We're not even talking about the Republicans' favorite kind of vote fraud -- voter suppression. This is where eligible voters are arbitrarily stricken off the rolls -- usually members of poor and/or minority communities.

As usual, make up an accusation you don't even bother to support, but demand all sorts of evidence from me.

The only thing I can think of like that is when Barack Obama, in his ACORN days, had the other candidates stricken by invalidating their petition signatures so that he could run unopposed.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/29/obamas.first.campaign/index.html

As a community organizer, he had helped register thousands of voters. But when it came time to run for office, he employed Chicago rules to invalidate the voting petition signatures of three of his challengers.

The move denied each of them, including incumbent Alice Palmer, a longtime Chicago activist, a place on the ballot. It cleared the way for Obama to run unopposed on the Democratic ticket in a heavily Democrat district.

Bruce Hayden said...

Who's doing this? Who's paying them? Why don't the precinct workers -- their neighbors -- wonder why they've never seen them before?

The people turning in the fake registrations are lazy , not diabolical
.

Absentee voting anyone?

And we know the people were lazy, just not whether or not they were corrupt enough to also vote illegally.

We know that illegal voter registrations are turned in, and we know that illegal voting goes on. We just cannot determine, as of yet, whether or not the same people are doing both.

Given how many states have criminally investigated ACORN, and how often their people were willing to aid and abet child prostitution and essentially sexual slavery, I would not be surprised if they also engaged in illegal voting. But, maybe that is a line that they didn't cross. We just don't know.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

Right. Retreat into snark and change the subject.

Bruce Hayden said...

Oh. Look. Another state with ACORN backed voter fraud: Massive Voter Fraud in NY Linked to ACORN

Kirby Olson said...

There ought to be some easy way to ascertain voter registration, such as electronic recognition of a thumb print, or via DNA registry, but even then a criminal group like ACORN with no concern for truth could get around it.

I predict that it will eventually come out that ACORN swung the last election and sent in the clowns.

Gabriel Hanna said...

Poor ACORN--the real victims:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/aug/18/deal-ex-acorn-official-cops-voter-quota-scheme/

Nevada Attorney General Catherine Cortez Masto said late Monday that Edwards has “agreed to admit his culpability, accept his punishment, and provide valuable testimony against the others involved.”

But Las Vegas lawyers for ACORN and Busefink said they doubted Edwards’ testimony would hurt their clients because ACORN officials were kept in the dark about what he was doing.

“I’m not concerned about it,” said Lisa Rasmussen, who represents ACORN. “He was doing something he shouldn’t have been doing.”

Kevin Stolworthy, who represents Busefink, added, “I don’t believe they have anything in writing supporting what he’s going to testify about. Our position is, he was told not to do it.”

In his plea agreement, however, Edwards said that from Aug. 1 to Oct. 31, 2008, he unlawfully conspired with ACORN and Busefink to create a local bonus incentive program, known as “Blackjack,” giving ACORN canvassers an additional $5 for turning in 21 or more registration cards per shift. ACORN allegedly required its workers to submit at least 20 voter registration forms a day to keep their jobs.

It is illegal in Nevada to attach incentives to gathering registration forms because it encourages canvassers to submit fraudulent forms.

When the indictments were announced in May, Cortez Masto said that by structuring the compensation around a quota system, “ACORN facilitated voter registration fraud in the state.”

About the same time in Pittsburgh, a half-dozen ACORN workers were charged with violating a similar Pennsylvania law prohibiting quotas and other incentives in voter registration drives.

That case was put on hold last month after the American Civil Liberties Union there filed suit on behalf of ACORN challenging the constitutionality of the state law.

former law student said...

bruce -- that's too clever for me to understand how it worked:

The election board mails out absentee ballots -- Working Families Party members somehow intercept them, fill them out, and return them. If people had moved, surely the postman would know and return to the election board, correct? Or are absentee ballots considered junk mail, and just thrown in a heap on the apartment lobby floor?

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

If people had moved, surely the postman would know and return to the election board, correct?

Didn't you ever live in an apartment complex?

Do you know how many hundreds of people live in mine?

Oh, right, he KNOWS HIS NEIGHBORS BY SIGHT.

Jackass.

former law student said...

gabe, in the absence of any evidence that voter fraud is going on, you have to at least make up a plausible scenario. If you told me last November every Ford Club Wagon available for rent had been booked for election week, I would believe there was a problem.

The absentee ballot issue I don't understand unless they're treated as junk mail.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:that's too clever for me to understand how it worked:

Anything would be.

I still get mail addressed to people who lived in my apartment years ago.

All those dead voters in King County still got their ballots in the mail.

It's very simple. Register as I. P. Freely, ask that it be mailed to your address.

What, two people can't live in the same house?

If you have three or four, how are they going to know? In college I shared an apartment with three other unrelated voters.

Oh, but the postman and the election board KNOW ALL THEIR NEIGHBORS BY SIGHT.

Seriously, your arguments just get lamer.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:in the absence of any evidence that voter fraud is going on

I already posted links and quoted extensively from newspapers. You posted links to jack shit.

Pogo said...

According to NYC ACORN voter fraud story:
"There may be as many as 50 absentee ballots that were forged, according to people close to the case. Countywide, there were 126 absentee ballots applied for on the Working Families Party line.".

Vote fraud by ACORN.
Proof.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

http://soundpolitics.com/archives/005173.html

"But there were other reasons why the numbers appeared to show that King County counted more votes than voters last November: For example, they counted more votes than there were voters."

"One way this happened was by counting both an absentee and a provisional from the same voter. Here again is one example of many. More on this later."

"Here's another good one I discovered down at the Archives today. In just one randomly selected box of counted provisional envelopes (last names starting with "L"), I found 3 envelopes from people who were not registered at all, but were assigned to precinct 1823 and their ballots were tabulated!"

"Given that the box contained 1,400 envelopes out of a total 28,000 provisionals counted, a simple extrapolation predicts that about 60 such bogus provisional ballots were counted. That could help explain why there were 111 provisional ballots tabulated in precinct 1823, but only 45 voters credited. "

I don't understand how this could have happened. Precinct workers and postal carriers KNOW ALL THEIR NEIGHBORS BY SIGHT.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/206969_dead07.html

"The P-I review found eight people who died weeks before absentee ballots were mailed out, between Oct. 13 and 15, but were credited with voting in King County. Among them was an 81-year-old Seattle woman who died in August but is recorded as having voted at the polls."

"The state is required by law to send monthly lists of the deceased to county auditors so they can purge those names from their voter rolls. But those lists are sent only every few months. That means thousands of deceased voters may have been sent absentee ballots."

"'If we don't receive a notice that they're dead, then we have no way of taking them off the rolls,' said Dean Logan, the county's elections director. Relatives of the deceased can and do cancel some registrations, he said."

"Doris McFarland said she voted for her husband, Earl, who died Oct. 7."

"'I called up the elections board and said, 'Can I do it because he wanted me to vote?' " the Duvall woman said. "The person ... said, 'Well, who would know?' I said, 'I don't want to do anything that is wrong.' "

"Huennekens disputed that election workers would say such a thing."

"McFarland said she signed her husband's name and mailed in his ballot, along with her own. She said she had power of attorney for her 92-year-old husband, who was blind."

""If I did something that wasn't right, you can just throw that ballot out," McFarland said last night."

"Huennekens said one of the P-I's eight cases involved an administrative error that showed a deceased person as voting and would be corrected. In four cases, the signatures on the ballot matched. Huennekens said officials needed further information or could not track down enough information on the other cases."

But how did these dead people get ballots in the first place? Their postal carriers WHO KNOW ALL THEIR NEIGHBORS BY SIGHT must have known they died and sent the ballots back.

Right?

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls:

"Rosalie B. Simpson, 81, died of a massive heart attack Aug. 4, but voter rolls show she voted at the polls."

Must have been a zombie. After all, a stranger couldn't have showed up at the precinct and voted in her name because the precinct workers KNOW ALL THEIR NEIGHBORS BY SIGHT.

Gabriel Hanna said...

@fls, since he can't be bothered to RTFA and isn't clever enough to figure out how WFP got illegal ballots:

"Some of the suspicious absentee ballots list Defiglio as the person who could pick it up for the voter. Residents of Griswold Heights said he is a familiar figure around those complexes. Other ballots were handled by, or returnable to, Democratic or WFP party officials, or candidates for citywide office, including: Troy Council President Clement Campana; City Clerk William McInerny; Councilman Gary Galuski; Rensselaer County WFP Chairman James Welch; council candidates Michael LoPorto and Kevin McGrath; and Tom Aldrich, a LoPorto campaign volunteer."

These ballots were voted and counted, and the vigilant network of precinct workers and election board and postal workers who KNOW ALL THEIR NEIGHBORS BY SIGHT somehow missed it.

Bruce Hayden said...

In his plea agreement, however, Edwards said that from Aug. 1 to Oct. 31, 2008, he unlawfully conspired with ACORN and Busefink to create a local bonus incentive program, known as “Blackjack,” giving ACORN canvassers an additional $5 for turning in 21 or more registration cards per shift. ACORN allegedly required its workers to submit at least 20 voter registration forms a day to keep their jobs.

Somehow, I am not surprised that ACORN would call their incentive program BlackJack in Las Vegas.

blake said...

I thought St. Louis was ACORN or a splinter group.

And wasn't there a case in MO?

The only times anyone's gone to jail for voter fraud in recent years, they've been Democrats.

Stupid Republicans. Or wait, maybe they're just not getting caught! Smaaaart Republicans!

blake said...

ACORN didn't really matter.

Coulter called this one: Recounts go on until the Democrat wins.

I can't think of a single case where that hasn't happened, except in 2000 where the recount—which was clearly tailored to produce the Dem win—was stopped by judicial fiat.

Oxbay said...

There is no doubt that the seat was stolen from Coleman by the Democrat party's Secretary of Hate, Al Franken.

After the election though Coleman fought very ineffectively. He was playing tiddlywinks while the Secretary of Hate was playing Hardball. So...