September 14, 2009

The Joe Wilson spirit infuses Kanye West.

So Joe Wilson suddenly felt it was okay to yell out "You lie" while Obama was taking his glamorous turn upon the stage of a joint session of Congress. There was something that needed to be said and it couldn't wait until after. It just had to be said during and traditional etiquette be damned.

And then last night at the MTV Video Music Awards, the lovely, wispy Taylor Swift had just glided up to the stage in a bejeweled gown to accept the award in the Best Female Video category for "You Belong With Me"...
“Thank you so much!” Swift began. “I always dreamed about what it would be like to maybe win one of these some day, but I never actually thought it would have happened. I sing country music so thank you so much for giving me a chance to win a VMA award.”

Before she could continue, West broke in. “Yo Taylor, I’m really happy for you, I’ll let you finish, but Beyoncé has one of the best videos of all time. One of the best videos of all time!” Kanye shouted to a mortified Swift and the speechless audience. And as quickly as he ran onstage — MTV cut away to show Pink applauding Taylor, and when they flashed back to Swift, West already had the mic in his hand — he was off, leaving a shocked Swift in his wake....

[A]fter Kanye handed the microphone back to Swift, her time was up, and MTV cut to a video featuring Tracy Morgan and Eminem....
Later in the show, Beyoncé did win for her video, in a better category, Video of the Year, so it's not as though MTV didn't agree with West's opinion. It just didn't agree with principles of logic — if Beyoncé's video was the Video of the Year, how was not the best in the lesser category of Best Female Video? — and it failed to realize that everyone watching wouldn't understand how the divvying up of awards worked in MTV world and keep their pants on until all the Moonmen were doled out.

Kanye West, like Joe Wilson, had to say what he knew to be true right when he saw the bright, shining truth of it. Lies must be denounced as lies at the moment of their utterance. Joe Wilson could not wait until Obama had gone through to the end of his extended remarks, and Kanye West could not allow Taylor Swift to speak uninterrupted for — what was the allotted time? — one minute.

Afterwards, like Joe Wilson, Kanye West apologized:
"I’m sooooo sorry to taylor swift and her fans and her mom. I spoke to her mother right after and she said the same thing my mother would’ve said. She is very talented! I like the lyrics about being a cheerleader and she’s in the bleachers! …………………… i’m in the wrong for going on stage and taking away from her moment!……………. beyonce’s video was the best of this decade! I’m sorry to my fans if I let you guys down! I’m sorry to my friends at mtv. I will apologize to taylor 2mrw. welcome to the real world! everybody wanna booooo me but i’m a fan of real pop culture! No disrespect but we watchin’ the show at the crib right now cause … well you know! i’m still happy for taylor! Boooyaaawwww! you are very very talented! I gave my awards to outkast when they deserved it over me… that’s what it is!! i’m not crazy yall, i’m just real. Sorry for that! I really feel bad for taylor and i’m sincerely sorry! Much respect!!”
Oh, yeah. Much respect. In post-You Lie times, your respect will come in the form of apologies the next day.

And did you notice "I’m sorry to my fans if I let you guys down!"? If... a nonapology. Because his fans might have loved it. Lots of folks loved Joe Wilson's "You lie" too.

Here's a 2010 campaign slogan suggstion: Joe Wilson: He's not crazy. He's just real.

AND: Here's Kanye's moment.

132 comments:

downtownlad said...

Except Obama didn't lie.

I notice that Ann is still lying about 2 million marchers though.

The Crack Emcee said...

There's something wrong with people now.

jayne_cobb said...

To be fair Joe Wilson didn't make a 19 year old girl cry (unless some of Obama's supporters truly are that far gone). But that's pretty much the most you'll see me defend his actions.

As for Kanye West, I don't listen to his music and I'm not a fan of any man who's arrogant enough to think he should be in the modern Bible.

al said...

Joe Wilson just had the guts to say what millions believe - Obama's a liar. Was it the right place? Probably not but he was correct.

Kanye just needs a lesson in manners.

Pogo said...

Boy, that was ugly.


Here's the thing: Alinsky tactics like shouting down opponents have been employed almost exclusively by the left since the 1960s. Their methods escalated under the Bush years, to the applause of the MSM.

Now that those barbarian efforts worked, the Democrats want to don the mantle of civilized propriety.

That's the problem, though. Once you let loose the dogs of philistinism, there is no turning back. From now on, it will get worse and worse.

It happened first in art, which decayed from the heights of Rembrandt to the dreck ofdeconstructionism:
"For the artists in the show, painting had become a trap, and they devised numerous ways to escape the conventions and break the traditions that had been passed down to them over hundreds of years. This phenomenon occurred in all parts of the world, and the exhibition documents why artists felt compelled to shoot, rip, tear, burn, erase, nail, unzip and deconstruct painting in order to usher in a new way of thinking."

You can't make the dissolution of tradition the norm and then pretend it isn't so at a whim. This is the uncivil society. Welcome, left, to your creation.

Bissage said...

It's too bad Taylor Swift doesn't have telekinetic powers.

downtownlad said...

Swift is a home-schooled, Christian, country singer though. Therefore, very likely a homophobic bigot. So I'm not perturbed by this incident.

Mian said...

Joe Wilson? I don't think so; politics is an arena all its own and those that play the game know the rules. It's rough and tumble.

One doesn't expect this to happen on an awards show: Kanye should be banned from future VMA awards for this but probably won't be...at the very least they should seat him in the very last row, behind a column, right next to the place where the line to the urinals form. That's where he belongs.

Shanna said...

So...Kayne's still an inappropriate ass? Not surprised! Still, it's pretty far to interupt poor Taylor Swift, who is not very old and pretty new on the scene to the MTV crowd.

I had to turn the VMA's off when the random british guy was doing the monologue talking about how brits were different than americans and said "instead of letting people die in the streets, we have free healthcare". I was just like, ok, that's it. Guess I"m too old for the VMA's.

Paco Wové said...

Keep trying, DTL; some newbie here will probably eventually take your bait if you troll hard enough.

Invisible Man said...

Here's the thing: Alinsky tactics like shouting down opponents have been employed almost exclusively by the left since the 1960s. Their methods escalated under the Bush years, to the applause of the MSM.

And said with no irony, while Republicans yell and scream at their Congressman at townhalls. I can't wait for our next "Daily Affirmation from Pogo from Alinsky".

Pogo said...

"And said with no irony, while Republicans yell and scream at their Congressman at townhalls. "

But that's exactly what I was referring to, you putz.

The right has now adopted these Alinsky tactics, and will use them much the same as the left did. That's precisely what I meant. "Ironic" is not the word you are looking for.

jayne_cobb said...

via Hot Air:


Kanye West interrupts Obama

The Drill SGT said...

Kayne's an ass. He demonstrated that with his Katrina Bush rant... OK, that was political speech, this was just plain rude.

Fred4Pres said...

Ann, Joe Wilson had a momentary lapse and in fact Obama was not telling the truth.

In the blogosphere, however, the Kanye West analogy is more akin to Chareles Johnson. Or perhaps Andrew Sullivan when he is especially going off on Trig Palin and Family.

Pogo said...

Apparently, Beyonce Knowles used her own time and let Swift return to the stage and give her acceptance speech.
That is class.

BTW, criticism of Kanye is racism.

downtownlad said...

It's not bait. Christianity = Homosexual Bigot.

We all know that Jesus hates gay people. If Jesus were alive today, he would kick the shit out of the wimpy little faggots in high school. Jesus would be protesting Matthew Shephard's funeral. Because that's what Christianity is all about - hating fags.

If you don't believe me - just read the Bible.

MadisonMan said...

KW'S APOLOGY SEEMS A LOT MORE SHALLOW WHEN YOU SEE IT IN ALL-CAPS, AS IT WAS WRITTEN. IT'S STILL AWFULLY SHALLOW IN LOWERCASE.

WHAT A CLASSLESS IDIOT.

downtownlad said...

""If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" Lev 20:13

Nice religion you have there. . .

Jason (the commenter) said...

Now that Kanye West has done it, isn't Joe Wilson off the hook?

Treacle said...

Wrong comparison, Ann. The right comparison is "R&B guy trashes female singer". Replace "Chris Brown" with "Kanye West" and "Rihanna" with "Taylor".

Taylor's just lucky she didn't end up knocked across the stage.

phosphorious said...

Ahhhh. . . everything is politics when you're conservative!

The two incidents are the same (!). . . and yet you manage to admire Joe and despise Kanye.

Well done.

Pogo said...

"Ahhhh. . . everything is politics when you're conservative!"

Yep. I done learnt that from some libruls, I did. Hear tell they invented it 'r sumpin'.

Shanna said...

The two incidents are the same (!). . . and yet you manage to admire Joe and despise Kanye.

Yes, picking on a 19 yo girl at an awards show is totally the same thing as saying “you lie” to the president of the united states, who is a grown man. Totally the same thing. Also, I don’t think Joe got up on stage with Obama and took the mike away either.

Aaron said...

Haven’t watched the mtv vmas in years. I mean on what channel would I watch a music video anyway? I haven’t seen one on MTV in years and MTV2 which was supposed to be a return to music videos, does the same thing these days. So if I never see a music video how am I supposed to even care about the awards for them?

Kenye showed a real lack of class.

And there is a difference between Wilson and that. Wilson was standing there getting insulted and shouted back. wrong? Yes, but much more understandable. For Kenye, his ego told him that everyone in the world had to know his opinion on the subject.

Downtown

> Except Obama didn't lie.

Except he did. that is why the senate is moving to close the loopholes that the left is claiming doesn’t exist.

> Swift is a home-schooled, Christian, country singer though. Therefore, very likely a homophobic bigot.

Um, the only person with demonstrable bigotry is you.

Aaron said...

Phos

mmm, yeah, and the left always sits quietly when conservatives are talking. because they are above politics.

Maguro said...

Ha, I think West rushing the stage and grabbing the mic takes this a couple steps above what Wilson did...still, it could be justified for something as important as an MTV video music award.

Gotta speak truth to power, man.

Shanna said...

Apparently, Beyonce Knowles used her own time and let Swift return to the stage and give her acceptance speech.
That is class.


Aww, that was nice of her. She looked weirded out when Kayne was saying his rant.

Christianity = Homosexual Bigot.

Wrong. Given your comments, you might as easily say "Homosexual = Bigoted against Christians"

Go back to logic class.

Sloanasaurus said...

I agree that Wilson should have kept to himself. However, the decorum of the chamber will continue to deteriorate if Presidents use them to make half truths or speak outright lies as Obama did.

A joint session speech should not have been used for this event. A joint session speech needs to be used to unite the Congress, not divide it.

SteveR said...

DTL,

I've read your comments here for years now and while I don't always agree with you, you have made some good points, but this Christianity equals bigotry against homesexuals rant is simple minded and ignorant.

AllenS said...

I'm old enough to remember when "gay" meant a merry lively mood. Homos need to drop gay, and start using bitter, to describe their proclivities.

EDH said...

West's episode had much more obvious racial overtones.

Will this trigger a media exploration of West's racial attitudes?

Beth said...

Beyonce showed real class; she's a star.

Beth said...

Apparently, anything conservatives do, it's liberals' fault.

Rialby said...

Aaron - how correct you are. I stopped watching MTV back in about 96 when I realized they had taken the videos off and weren't planning on putting them back on. Then they created MTV2 but that went the same route. And then VH1. I guess the internet is the only place to see a video now but what artist is going to spend the money to make one?

Laurie said...

Didn't see the show & don't watch MTV, but consensus on pop radio station this morning was that the whole thing was staged - seems to be the M.O. for these MTV-type award shows (reminded me of that stunt with Borat guy and Enimen).
HAHA - WV=nutwalit

Big Mike said...

To be perfectly fair, I think that Kanye West would have done what he did regardless of whether Joe Wilson called out President Obama on his lie.

True to form, I see that today's copy of USA Today carried a half page article on the VMA awards, without mentioning Taylor Swift or Kanye West. No, that's not completely true. Taylor Swift's win for Female Video is listed in 6 point font at the far right next to a 2" x 3" picture of Madonna, and the last sentence of the article reads "Among the stars at the show: Jennifer Lopez, Alicia Keys, Kanye West, Katy Perry ..." Nothing to see here, move along.

It has not escaped my notice that immediately after Wilson's outburst the Senate Finance committee added the necessary language to close the big-enough-to-drive-a-truck-through loophole that would have -- as Barack Obama well knew -- allowed undocumented aliens to receive benefits under "his" plan.

former law student said...

Kanye West's mother, for decades a professor at a state university, published a book about how she raised Kanye (she passed away last year). The book may provide insights into his current behavior.

Alinsky tactics like shouting down opponents

I usually take pogo's assertions at face value, but if he's going to uncritically repeat bullshit like that I won't. Shouting down your opponents persuades no one, while ceding them the moral high ground. Alinsky's techniques were designed to allow people to accomplish their objectives, not frustrate them.

Big Mike said...

@Beth, as a matter of fact, yes.

I think you and your liberal buddies have been assuming all along that you could riot, pillage, shout down people whose words are unwelcome to you (no matter how true), and even physically threaten people you disagree with, and the "Daddy Party" would suck it up and for sheer love of country try to patch things up and move ahead (and I'm using the word "you" generically, not necessarily implying that you, personally, are guilty of all or even most of what I listed).

Well, maybe many of the rest of us have passed our fed-up point. Take a good hard look into the abyss, and decide if that's what you want. If it's not, then maybe a good starting point would be for your side to put a leash on the MoveOn types and and Kossacks. Then next include hate speech against straight white male goyim in the hate speech proscription. That will be a small, a very small start on your part.

paul a'barge said...

You're morally equating Kanye West with Joe Wilson?

wv: unabl

right. Unabl to understand your moral priorities.

Gary said...

Just an opinion, but I believe Kanye knew exactly what he was going to do if anyone but Beyonce won. These people do nothing spontaneously. They are the product and that was his marketing pitch.

Most mature reality-based folks could care less about wealthy folk rewarding each other for singing.
These "artists'" commonness and humility ended when they took their first step on the red carpet runway leading to their enthronement.

Oh, and by the way, might I dare say it? Kanye's a racist.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

There is absolutely no comparison here. Althouse is making a spurious analogy. Apples to oranges.

And did you notice "I’m sorry to my fans if I let you guys down!"? If... a nonapology. Because his fans might have loved it. Lots of folks loved Joe Wilson's "You lie" too

The differenance is that Wilson is the elected representative of his District and as such is the voice of his constituants. He is their ONLY voice in Congress and when the President is calling his constituants LIARS and other names, Wilson is honor bound to speak out. Perhaps he should have waited until after Obama was done preaching and called the President a LIAR afterwards. But he was absolutley correct in speaking out.

The other situation involves a rude unelected racist jerk (who I have never heard of... thank God) in a venue that means nothing to the lives of the people in general.

Wilson's outburst is part of a struggle that is going to affect us for generations.

No comparison at all. None

Chip Ahoy said...

Yell and shout. This is how a perturbed mind doubles the effrontery of a single outburst.

But it's just fine to hop up and down in spontaneous applause en masse throughout a speech, an aggregate of outright lies delivered in the voice™, interrupting it point for point throughout and then condemn that one single barely audible voice that issued one single outburst of two short words so brief it's nearly missed. Yes, that must be formally condemned. Ha ha. That's a good one.

Grow up.

The umbrage here is risible. It is false and it is entirely contrived. It is something baked, like a cake, then decorated, piped out with little umbragettes along its edges, then presented as something delicious to savor. What fine well-trained umbrage pastry chefs this loyalty to party makes.

Wait. It occurs to me another food-related analogy might be useful. The risible false umbrage shown here and elsewhere is like the microscopic yeast that is floating around in the air that is captured in a slurry and then cultivated with mild heat fed with fresh flour and water over a period of a few days until a sponge is developed that is grown in increments by repeated infusing until that sponge is characterized by the multiplicity of yeast and can be worked into a dough then finally baked with real heat and consumed. What subsistence from air and field and heat!

This analogy comes to mind because that's what I'm doing presently.

Home schooled + Christian + country singer = likely homophobic bigot. Observe the mathematics and the logic of a woefully disturbed mind. That's another good one. Always about poor little abused you, even when you have to make it up.

traditionalguy said...

I noticed that both Kanye West and Serena Williams were not going to let a mere rule stop either of them from claiming their right to dominate other people. Bold Joe Wilson stood up to another dominator who was showing off his dominance without regard for the rule to be honest when promising benefits to the American people.These actions are the inverse of one another.Should everyone call for an apology to Williams and to West from anyone bold enough to respond when those two drew First Blood. No of course not, unless the free pass for oppressed Blacks is still a trump card today.

Shanna said...

Just an opinion, but I believe Kanye knew exactly what he was going to do if anyone but Beyonce won. These people do nothing spontaneously. They are the product and that was his marketing pitch.

Quite possible, but it was still rude, rude, rude. Problem is, Taylor was not in on the joke/publicity stunt/nonsense.

Joe Wilson was rude too, but this was far, far worse (except for the fact that the VMA’s are full on nonsense, so it fit a little better).

Pogo said...

Beth and flzs,
We are each of us responsible for our own actions, of course.

But the destruction of traditional civilized behavior promulgated by the left (and opposed by conservatives) since the late 1800s has now been accepted as the norm. As a result, 'personal responsibility' has no real value anymore, an outmoded behavior only honored in the breach.

Joe Wilson and shout-downs at town halls are not anomalies, they are the current standard of behavior, taught to all of us by the left. Even grade schools teach kids how to protest and agitate and 'raise awareness'.

Did the left think they could simply resume civilization when they won?

Well, it's about to get a lot worse, in my view.

Freeman Hunt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Freeman Hunt said...

If Joe Wilson didn't say what he did when he did, no one would ever have covered it.

Had Kanye made his opinion known after the event, it would have been covered breathlessly by the entertainment media.

bearbee said...

Who is Kanye West?

I suppose I should Google......

kathleen said...

"And said with no irony, while Republicans yell and scream at their Congressman at townhalls. "

There is no analogy here, unless Taylor Swift works for Kanye West.

Jon said...

Joe Wilson at least had the guts to take on the most powerful man in the world, as opposed to a 19 year old girl.

Freeman Hunt said...

The analogy would hold if Taylor Swift had gotten up and said,


"Thank you. I won this award because Beyonce and those like her lie about me and are always bickering with me. In fact, this award, presented to me for being the first woman to walk on the moon, has magical powers that will allow me see the future and fly through the air. Also, by the way, pigs do fly. Thank you."

Then it would have been the same.

victoria said...

Kanye and Joe Wilson are alarmingly the same, two grandstanders who have no right or reason to behave badly and do it just because they can. They also did it to bring attention to themselves, not any other reason.

2 million marchers, only in a drug induced dream.

BTW, Taylor Swift didn't cry, not even worth her time, like Joe Wilson too.

phosphorious said...

Shanna,

Yes, picking on a 19 yo girl at an awards show is totally the same thing as saying “you lie” to the president of the united states, who is a grown man. Totally the same thing. Also, I don’t think Joe got up on stage with Obama and took the mike away either.


Ann made drew the comparison, not me.

phosphorious said...

Aaron,

mmm, yeah, and the left always sits quietly when conservatives are talking. because they are above politics.

The left isn't above politics. . . but not everything is political is it?

Something happens at a music awards show. Not a political statement in sight. . . and yet the "spirit of Joe Wilson" is on display?

Everything is political when you're conservative.

Leland said...

It would have been great if, as Mr. West approached the stage, some of Swift's Bubba bodyguards rushed him and knocked him to the ground. Then afterwards, they could have threatened to bust a cap in the fool.

Alas, that would probably only work the only way around.

wv: morimon A point of outrage to homosexual bigots upset that Californian blacks voted for Obama and against gay marriage.

Comrade X said...

the best part was when beyonce won and asked taylor to come out and showed kanye to be the gay fish that he is.

S said...

I hate that "I'm just real". So, people who are considerate of others are fake?

Scott M said...

So…who is the white equivalent of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton that Kanye is going to have to seek out and kiss the ass of?

”Kanye West don’t care about white country singers…”

Jon said...

I wonder if, when Maureen Dowd viewed this incident, she heard Kanye say "Yo, white bitch..." Since Maureen has the magical power to hear the unspoken racist thoughts and all.

BJK said...

Kanye West is a brilliant self-promoter, particularly when it comes to the VMAs.

2009 - Taylor Swift mishap.
2008 - Performed first single from unreleased album; no lingering attention received.
2007 - Alleged racism because Britney Spears was booked to open the show.
2006 - Went on-stage at the European music awards during the presentation of the award he didn't win for best video, claiming that he should have won.


There is no such thing as bad publicity on Mtv; Kanye's records will still sell, and he actually made both Taylor Swift and Beyonce look better for their roles in the process. Stop giving the man the attention he's so desparately seeking.

WV: slysi - the act of detecting PR stunts

miller said...

a) another thread about to be derailed by DTL.
b) I notice that Gene Olson's latest moniker disappeared the same time as phosphorus showed up. Coincidence?

WV: imunchi, a new Apple product for the tokers

Aaron said...

Phos

> The left isn't above politics. . . but not everything is political is it?

Nope, but you are trying to make this political.

> Not a political statement in sight. . . and yet the "spirit of Joe Wilson" is on display?

I think Althouse meant that in a derisive way.

> Everything is political when you're conservative.

The idea that everything is political is a maoist concept, which is decidedly not of the right.

phosphorious said...

"He is their ONLY voice in Congress and when the President is calling his constituants LIARS and other names"

Joe Wilson's constituents believe that there will be death panels?

That's what Obama calle "a lie", no?

Pogo said...

"That's what Obama calle "a lie", no?"

Sure, liars generally call the truth a lie.

Your point?

Or are you suggesting that "best practices" and care guidelines that restrict and ration care are something other than 'death panels'?

twolaneflash said...

Caution: Shark-jumping in progress.

Scott M said...

@phosphorious

The whole death panel thing began as political hyperbole, but there is certainly some structure to the argument. However, it’s not cut-and-dry clear enough to call it an outright lie. On the other hand, President Obama insisted that illegals would not be able to get government-run, taxpayer-subsidized health care under his plan (he took ownership of the whole thing this weekend in case you missed it). Not only are there no verification mechanism to insure that illegals don’t receive taxpayer-subsidized care, but democrats, at last count, have voted against adding those mechanisms twice in committee.

So, for him to claim that his plan won’t allow illegals to receive taxpayer-subsidized health care is a far more cut-and-dried falsehood…or…a lie.

AJ Lynch said...

Phos:

The bill establishes like 53 new committees and boards. Common sense tells you at least one of those will be in charge of limiting services.

And that is just a polite way of saying:

"Hey oldtimer, it's time for your dirt nap!" unless, of course, you have good connections.

Shanna said...

One of the videos told a little story and the other was three people dancing the whole time. I love watching people dance, and these people were great, but I didn't think the dancing was exceptional.

I haven’t see either video in total, but I saw part of the Beyonce video on sytycd and I think it was different because of the color pallet and the type of dancing. Taylor Swift’s video, or at least from the clip I saw on you tube, just looked like every other country video ever (like the song way better, though and a video is more than just the moving picture).

Aaron said...

phos

Um, what are we supposed to think on death panels, when obama says that people should get asperin for serious treatable conditions, that his grandmother shouldn't have gotten a hip replacement, and don't worry, we will cut "fraud and waste" from the healthcare system. i mean everyone is against fraud, but what exactly counts as "waste?"

And btw, nice dodge, but Wilson called him a liar when he said that illegal immigrants would be excluded.

Salamandyr said...

DTL is fun. He can take any subject, no matter how bizarre, abstruse, or esoteric, and make it about homosexual bigotry. It is truly a gift rare among men.

What topic should we ask him to do next? How about the space program?

Alex said...

DTL - keep up the troll bait, you Huffer Hillbilly!

phosphorious said...

"The whole death panel thing began as political hyperbole, but there is certainly some structure to the argument. However, it’s not cut-and-dry clear enough to call it an outright lie."

So it's not logically impossible that Sarah palin was telling the truth. . . and these are the standards the GOP now uses.

Good luck in 2010. Seriously.

John Lynch said...

Gee, maybe entertainers shouldn't go to the awards show while high.

phosphorious said...

"And btw, nice dodge, but Wilson called him a liar when he said that illegal immigrants would be excluded."

Not a dodge, simpleton. The claim has been made that Joe Wilson's unorecedented breach of congrssional decorum was simply the reasonable response to Obama's OUTRAGEOUS claim that talk of "death panels" was a lie.

Talk of death panels IS a lie. . . unless you admit that private insurers also have "death panels" . . . because private insurers often deny coverage for their customers for any number of reasons, cost being the deciding factor. Call those death panels, and then talk about Obama's death panels.

Conservatives who claim that there will be death panels. . . even if they speak poetically and metaphorically. . . are simply liars

ricpic said...

Kanye was being authentic. And isn't that the highest possible virtue? Spontaneous, authentic, vibrant. All the withit people have been braying for authenticity since forever. Well, now you've got it. Enjoy.

Scott M said...

@phosphorious

First, I’m not a member of the GOP, so sticks-and-stones. Second, the standard I try very hard to use is the exchange of clear, concise statements during a debate. Care to expand on your comment?

So it's not logically impossible that Sarah palin was telling the truth…

Hyperbole isn’t necessarily false. It is an overstatement for effect, which is exactly what she did. There are legitimate concerns that government employees will be deciding the fate of the elderly. More than likely, if my experience with government contracts speaks to anything, those employees will be incentivized to be pro-cost control over the immediate interests of the old person in question. That interest, of course, being the continuance of breathing.

Even if you disagree with my point, please lay out the logical argument that it was impossible that Palin was telling the truth.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Talk of death panels IS a lie. . . unless you admit that private insurers also have "death panels" . . . because private insurers often deny coverage for their customers for any number of reasons, cost being the deciding factor. Call those death panels, and then talk about Obama's death panels.


There is no comparison.

One is a voluntary contract with an insurance company where I, the insured, get to chose the level of coverage, my deductibles, the lifetime cap and know full well in advance just what will and will not be covered. If I don't like the insurance company's plan, I am free to chose another one.

The other is a government mandated one size fits all program in which we have no choices. The government plan is to restrict medical care to certain segments of society. The elderly, the handicapped etc, in the aim of social engineering.

Do insurance companies restrict the medical procedures that they cover. Of course they do. They do it for profit and we are all aware of that before we voluntarily sign the contract.

Will the government restrict coverage and medical procedures. Of course. However, we will have no choices or control. The government will be doing it also for profit, but more importantly and more frightening is that they will be doing it for POLITICAL reasons.

Who is to control who lives and dies? The government? Doesn't that scare you in the least? I guess you consider yourself part of the favored class. This social engineering is excactly what was done in Germany during WWII and in all totalitarian countries. They also pick out favored classes and disfavored to ration health care, food, housing etc. Sucked to be a Gypsy, Polish, Jew or Handicapped person in Germany.

When Obama says you can keep your current insurance...he lies. When he says it won't cover illegal aliens....he lies. When he says it won't add to the deficit...he LIES. When he says there won't be rationing....he LIES. When he calls US liars.....he LIES!!!

peter hoh said...

It's all about race, isn't it?

Can't wait for the Dowd column.

fivewheels said...

I'm too old for the MTV Awards these days, being a fan of actual music played with instruments and such. But I checked out video of Beyonce's very gracious moment and I have one question: Who is that with the bird's nest thing on her face? Yikes.

William said...

Not since that disrober disrupted the solemnity of a George Clooney press conference have I seen a more egregious breach of protocol. It is hard to find a graceful and honorable path in this minefield called modern life. Like many here, I look to music video stars to help me find the right path. Wealthy, good looking people who can carry a tune are the pathfinders. They have figured it all out and show us the way....That is why Kanye West's display of bad manners was so disturbing. If we cannot trust a drunk rap star to behave properly, what hope do the rest of us have. Thank God for Beyonce. In a gesture as emphatic and unaffected as the accent mark on the last syllable of her name, she showed us that rich, good looking people who can carry a tune are the true saints of our time. Her kind, generous act restored the heavens to their harmony and showed us why stars should be the beacon and direction of our destiny. I would urge all whose faith in MTV stars was shaken by Kanye West's bad behavior to consider that an aberration and regard Beyonce's gesture the norm. That way lies salvation.

ricpic said...

Good looking people make me cream. Wealthy or not.

ricpic said...

I can't get past Beyonce's thunder thighs. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
--Authentically yours.

Republican said...

Althouse:

There is NO comparison between an entertainer taking the stage to interrupt the recipient of an award, and someone shouting "you lie" from the audience during a 45-minute speech.

Joe Wilson has no habit of being an habitual disrupter or disgruntled speech-listener. We can forgive him for that reason.

Kanye West is an habitual disruptor. He has disrupted several other award presentations by declaring himself the "real" winner, and he made obscene comments during a Hurricane Katrina televised fundraiser (when he blurted out that President Bush hates black people).

His actions make people wince, and have caused his eviction from numerous events.

I don't think the same could be said of Wilson.

paul a'barge said...

Apparently I'm not the only one disgusted with columns that compare Joe Wilson with Kanye West:
here

Aaron said...

Phos

> The claim has been made that Joe Wilson's unorecedented breach of congrssional decorum was simply the reasonable response to Obama's OUTRAGEOUS claim that talk of "death panels" was a lie.

So let me get this straight. Wilson was not lying when he called obama a liar. According to you, obama was not lying when he called Palin a liar (not quite, but let’s pretend for the sake of argument), but obama calling out palin truthfully (according to you), didn’t make it okay for Wilson to call obama out truthfully. Mmm, hmm.

> Talk of death panels IS a lie. . . unless...

“That is complete bullsh--, unless it isn’t.” Well, okay.

> unless you admit that private insurers also have "death panels" . . . because private insurers often deny coverage for their customers for any number of reasons, cost being the deciding factor.

But there is a slight difference. You see, if a private insurance company won’t cover you, you can go to another. And if it is a breach of contract, you can sue. By comparison if the government is the only game in town (and that is the ultimate goal of the left), and they decide to deny you coverage...

Dave said...

Joe Wilson is like most old southern White Men...Angry ... sleeping with a Rebel Flag and hides his Racism behind anold and tired Political Party and a Religion that accepts all ...as long as those "all" are white and republican. He is nothing but a part of the tired old estabblishment...and the sad thing is he hasfour boys whom he's teaching the same racist and disrespectful values to.
This ignorance and political blindness is going to desroy our country.

jayne_cobb said...

I notice that Gene Olson's latest moniker disappeared the same time as phosphorus showed up. Coincidence?


I had the same thought.

So how many times would that make?

Scott M said...

@Dave

Aside from the relative ease of proving how many boys Wilson has, I challenge you to provide proof of any other statement you just made.

If not, please cede the fact that mudslinging like that without any proof to back it up is certainly one of the weights that are dragging us under the ice. THAT is political ignorance, attacking the man's character instead of the validity of his statement.

Sounds like you are lumping all old southern white men into a single category and them hatefully blaming all of them. If that's not bigoted, I don't know what is.

Methadras said...

downtownlad said...

Except Obama didn't lie.

I notice that Ann is still lying about 2 million marchers though.


Everytime you pop into a thread, your idiotic homohysteria reminds me of a line in Van Halens - Hot For Teacher.

Hey, I heard you missed us, were back !
I brought my pencil
Gimme something to write on, man.

Methadras said...

This is merely celebrity indulgence. When we as a viewing public indulge in the ongoing saga of celebrity lives we inadvertently become their enablers and in doing so, they think it's permissible to behave in unseemly ways, because afterall, they're celebrities. They can indulge any way they want at their whim when it suits their base impulses to do so. And then the chattering classes jib-jab about it ad nauseum.

Republican said...

@Paul:

Yeah, the comparisons are all over the place, and it's apples v. oranges.

Saying "no disrespect" is the equivalent of an online smiley, just after you've insulted someone.

"I was just kidding. :) "

"No disrespect intended, but...."

former law student said...

ricpic said...
I can't get past Beyonce's thunder thighs

A sign of good health, we learmed here last week.

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2009/09/i-hope-your-thighs-are-big-enough.html

Patm said...

Downtownlad, Yes, Obama lied and lies. Get over it.

I went and watched those videos and thought, crap, they both suck. Beyonce's video is boring, with lackluster choreography (basic ass shaking) and she is not even graceful. Janet Jackson used to dance ten times better. And the other video was okay. Milky and teenybopper but cute.

That's what passes for great videos today? Lesser Janet Jackson and reheated John Hughes?

No wonder Obama won. People are stupid.

Shanna said...

Totally agree, Janet Jackson video's would kick both of these to the curb.

phosphorious said...

Scott,

"Even if you disagree with my point, please lay out the logical argument that it was impossible that Palin was telling the truth."

Of course it's logically possible that Plain spoke the truth and that there will be death panels.

It is logically possible that Bush knew about 9/11 beforehand. . . the statement "Bush knew about 9/11 beforehand" is not a contradiction.

But that doesn't mean it's likely to be true, or that the belief is reasonable.

I certainly hope that you are holding your party to a higher standard than that!

Poetry is not policy.

Pogo said...

"Of course it's logically possible that Plain spoke the truth and that there will be death panels."

Bonehead. That's the plan, not the possible plan, but the actual plan.

Scott M said...

#phos

Pogo beat me to it.

Further; my party? Yes, we Libertarians have a much higher standard and you'll likely be seeing as much within the next 10 to 15 years.

You haven't yet explained how Wilson was incorrect in his statement. Bad timing, I'll grant you, and I'd like to not see our chambers digress into GB's Parliament. Half the fun of watching what they do on C-SPAN is knowing they're not running our country.

For Obama to truly believe his own statements means he's a blind ideologue or, worse, ignorant of the reality of this debate. I sincerely doubt the latter.

phosphorious said...

A private insurance compan y will do everything it can to NOT pay out a claim. This is just as much rationing as anything the government will do.

The fact that they are private insurers doesn;t mean they automatically pay for everything you might want, and it doesn't even mean that you will know beforehand what they will and won't pay for.

The hysterical claim that there will be "death panels" that will decide whetehr you live or die based on your ability to "contribute to society" (and that was the original formulation, I believe) is hogwash.

Previously known as "a lie."

Scott M said...

@phos

You’re apparently missing the economic reality. As it stands, you can shop around for your insurance. If they try to pull a fast one on you and deny coverage in contrast to what you have already signed up and paid for, you can sue them. This provides incentive for them not to screw everyone over, despite their incentive to as much profit as possible. It’s up to you as the consumer to be fully aware of your policy. Saying that nobody takes to the time to wade through all of that is tantamount to admitted you don’t want your personal liberty intact.

If the government crowds out private insurance and becomes the sole source, where’s the recourse for inaction or decisions made not by the patients and patient’s families, but by desk jockies?

And, to take the point to another facet as this is far from two-sided, I don’t have health insurance through a private provider. I use a health savings account and pay for everything pretty much with cash. I’m solidly middle-class, so there’s no “well, if you make enough you can afford to do that” bullshit. I make sacrifices to make sure I have enough in that kitty and jealously guard the balance. Under the plan you seem to be arguing for, I’m going to be REQUIRED to get shitty insurance or PENALIZED for not participating. Right now, I’m doing what’s best for my family. You would take that away from me in the name of some false egalitarian or collective financial gestalt.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

A private insurance compan y will do everything it can to NOT pay out a claim. This is just as much rationing as anything the government will do.

If you have a legitimate claim and they don't pay then you have recourse. It is called breach of contract.

If the government decides to change the coverages mid stream...we have no recourse because there is no contract. They can arbitrarily make changes just like they have in Medicare.
The fact that they are private insurers doesn;t mean they automatically pay for everything you might want,


Well DUH!! That's why there is a contract that details what is and isn't covered and how much they will pay and how much you have to pay. No one expects the insurance company to pay for everything.

and it doesn't even mean that you will know beforehand what they will and won't pay for

Yes it does. You have to actually....gasp.....read your contract.

vw: ledstyle---- what you call that chopped and lowered 1950 Merc.

Big Mike said...

There was an interesting letter to the editor printed in the Washington Post on Sept. 4th. It's the second letter in the pair linked here, i.e., the one by Betsy McCaughey.

Fundamentally the way one of the "death panels" fin HR 3200 would work is (1) doctors would be evaluated (the so-called "quality reports") on how often they give end-of-life counseling and what percentage of their patients elect to create living wills, then (2) doctors would be evaluated on what percentage of their patients adhere to them. Fundamentally the doctors would be incentivized to get people to sign up for living wills and then further incentivized to prevent them from backing out.

So Palin was right, and Barack Obama was telling the truth only insofar as there is no committee in any of the bills that is formally called a "Death Panel."

But then they wouldn't call it that, would they? They'd call it something else that seems at first glance to be thoroughly innocuous. Just as long as Granny understands that it's her duty to die.

peter hoh said...

So Big Mike, how do you like Steele's counterproposal, the Seniors Bill of Rights?

Everything you want! No limits! Costs? We're gonna skip that part for now. After all, they've earned it.

miller said...

DBQ, some people want the government to take care of them & keep them safe from the Big Meanies.

Sacrificing liberty for safety? Hasn't worked in the past.

peter hoh said...

Looks like Kanye's become a meme popular with the kids who make amateur cartoons.

Pogo said...

The Case for Killing Granny
Rethinking end-of-life care.
By Evan Thomas | NEWSWEEK
Published Sep 12, 2009

Yes we can ...kill grandma!!

peter hoh said...

Pogo, do you think Gingrich was wrong when he wrote the following:


More than 20 percent of all Medicare spending occurs in the last two months of life. Gundersen Lutheran Health System in La Crosse, Wisconsin has developed a successful end-of-life, best practice that combines: 1) community-wide advance care planning, where 90 percent of patients have advance directives; 2) hospice and palliative care; and 3) coordination of services through an electronic medical record. The Gundersen approach empowers patients and families to control and direct their care. The Dartmouth Health Atlas has documented that Gundersen delivers care at a 30 percent lower rate than the national average ($18,359 versus $25,860). If Gundersen's approach was used to care for the approximately 4.5 million Medicare beneficiaries who die every year, Medicare could save more than $33 billion a year.

Pogo said...

Did Gingrich say it should be federal law that demands Gundersen's approach be used to care for the 4.5 million Medicare beneficiaries who die every year?

If so, please point that out to me.

Scott M said...

@peter hoh

Of course he's wrong. Having a -R after your name doesn't make you magically all knowing and more than having a -D does.

The problem is in the implementation. If the government is doing it omnipotently, there no recourse and all the private providers get crowded out or very, very expensive. Plus, just getting the gub'ment involved means waste, fraud, and abuse that nobody will take ownership of.

Making it compulsory is the poison, regardless of how well you THINK it will work.

peter hoh said...

Yes, I'm sure that when Gingrich held up the Gunderson approach as one that should be replicated around the country, he was not suggesting it actually happen. It was just some sort of free-association beat poetry.

Pogo said...

Gingrich is a techno-geek who trends authoritarian.

He can go to hell.

Pogo said...

Compulsory is the key, peter.

If it ain't compulsory, it doesn't work. If it is compulsory, it's an evil, state-sponsored coercion to die and get out of the way.

peter hoh said...

Well, Scott, you'll be happy to learn that Gingrich disagrees with himself as well.

Aaron said...

Phos

> A private insurance compan y will do everything it can to NOT pay out a claim.

Riiiight. People fork over their money to companies with a history of not paying. Boy no wonder you libs hate capitalism. You have no idea how it works. And we all fear what we don’t understand, you know?

But then again, no one understands the health bills before congress. But the Dems feel no fear of that. I guess it’s a faith based initiative, their faith being of course in Christ’s second coming, aka Barrack Obama.

> The fact that they are private insurers doesn;t mean they automatically pay for everything you might want, and it doesn't even mean that you will know beforehand what they will and won't pay for.

Actually that is what contracts are for.

> The hysterical claim that there will be "death panels" that will decide whetehr you live or die based on your ability to "contribute to society" (and that was the original formulation, I believe) is hogwash.

Then what did obama mean when he implied his own grandma shouldn’t have gotten hip replacement surgery?

Scott M said...

@peter

Well, Scott, you'll be happy to learn that Gingrich disagrees with himself as well.

Ah, good. So we're all in agreement that he's wrong. Excellent. Progress.

peter hoh said...

Aaron, I'm pretty sure you can use Google to find the answer yourself, but here it is anyway.

mrs whatsit said...

Every time I see these claims about how terrible it is that the bulk of health care spending takes place in the last few months of life, I think -- well now wait a minute, isn't that just the same as the way you always find whatever you lost in the last place you look?

I venture to guess that people who die have often been really, really sick in the last few weeks or months before they die. I'll bet many of them, in fact, are the sickest they've ever been in their lives, whether they're dying at 5 from cystic fibrosis or 20 from meningitis or 40 from breast cancer or 60 from Parkinson's or 80from congestive heart failure. Is that really so surprising? And why is it significant at all? How are the doctors, or the death panels, or the insurers, or whomever, supposed to figure out which people who are so sick that they're racking up months of high medical bills are the ones who are going to die in the end anyway and should therefore be cut off now, and which ones are going to make it through this expensive illness only to get expensively sick again another day?

Scott M said...

@peter hoh

Since your google is working and mine’s in the shop, can you check a couple of other things for me?

1) The forward velocity of an unladen swallow

2) The capital of Montana

3) What Obama meant when he said we have to have a civilian force just as powerful, just as strong, and just as well funded as the military

I'm pretty curious about 1 and 2, but if you've got 3 handy, I'll take that one. And, if you have time, please find out where I can get the civilian version of either the M1-A1 Abrahams main battle tank or a surplus aegis cruiser.

Pogo said...

If doctors were really any good at actually predicting when precisely those last 6 months began, this wouldn't be a big deal.

But doctors are bad at predicting who is going to die in the next 6 months. And putting financial or regulatory incentives in the mix will make errors more likely.

So if people outlive the 6 months of hospice, we'll simply have to shoot them.

Brittanicus said...

Of all the Immigration enforcements laws that really works E-Verify has settled in to removing illegal immigrants from the workplace. But there is a "Sunset Provision" that could determine its future, since it’s specially working for the millions of jobless Americans? Supposedly E-Verification expires on September 30, only days after a Federal judge turned down a desperate delay from the despicable Special interest lobbyists led by the US Chamber of Commerce. On September 8 E-Verify, a contingency of the SAVE ACT was fully implemented mandating that all federal contractors and sub-contractors--MUST--use this computerized identification system.
The American people must understand their is tremendous pressure on anemic members of both political parties to dismantle, store or hinder the E-Verify process as they are the puppets of rich business enterprises.

We must endeavor to continue on raising our voices against the powerful forces that think nothing more than to destroy this valuable commodity called E-Verify. Overtime it will rid from every workplaces of millions of illegal workers, who think they are safe from government intervention. It will save billions of dollars being exported to other lands and sever the tolerant welfare programs, health care, education accessed by illegal low wage earners. E-Verify could introduced in all medical facilities, to check a persons national identity. The expedited message will spread and these lawbreakers will realize that it's fruitless to keep on applying for jobs. Eventually families will start to pack-up and depart for every corner of the earth. But it's up to the American voter to keep relentlessly calling the Washington switchboard 202-224-3121contacting their politicians.


Evaluate each lawmaker at NUMBERSUSA or JUDICIAL WATCH and command them to enforce E-Verify permanently. Not Voluntary for every business, but a mandatory addition for each employer. Fulfill their obligation to build the fence according to Rep. Duncan Hunter R-CA. Keep training the regular police according to the Federal 287 G directive,. Not to Rescind the No Match letter or desist ICE raids or weaken any other enforcement law, such as the 1986 Immigration Control & Reform Act. NOW IT'S UP TO YOU? STARTLING WEBSITE! GOOGLE---IMMIGRATIONCOUNTERS.

former law student said...

Nowadays just diagnosing what's wrong can cost a ton of money.

Wuzzadem said...

DownTownLad - I live in an area of the U.S. that is heavily Muslim. We have 17 major Islamic Centers here. Trust me -- it's NOT the Christians you should be afraid of.

Father Martin Fox said...

Blogger downtownlad said...

"We all know that Jesus hates gay people. If Jesus were alive today, he would kick the shit out of the wimpy little faggots in high school. Jesus would be protesting Matthew Shephard's funeral. Because that's what Christianity is all about - hating fags."

Nope. But our Lord would almost certainly look with love on gay persons in his time and tell them to keep their private parts to themselves, and "take up your cross and follow me."

He wouldn't have had any use for this--or many other variations of the "Id liberation movement" at work today (MTV and Kayne West being other manifestations of this phenomenon).

And folks like Downtownlad would be furious that Jesus was so "intolerant" as to advocate something as oppressive as chastity.

Eli Blake said...

And here is section 246 of HR 3200:

section 246: NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

But hey, Joe Wilson is one of thoe lying liars who lie, so why not lie by calling the President a liar?

Big Mike said...

@Eli, but if HR 3200 does not require participants to positively identify themselves as being legal citizens, then this section is unenforceable, is it not?

Did they fool you, or did you fool yourself?

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

You need to read a bit more carefully between the lines there bubbie.

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States

Affordability credits "This isn't part of the tax law, yet, but introduced in the
House of Representatives is healthcare legislation which
includes "Affordability credits for low- and moderate-income
individuals and families, available to those with incomes up to
400 percent of the federal poverty level, or $43,000 for
individuals and $88,000 for a family of four."

This isn't to say that illegals won't be able to be covered under the Obama government care option that will be funded mostly by tax dollars. It just says that they won't get "affordability credits".

They WILL be covered because, as already pointed out, if there are no screening processes in place....anyone can qualify for the affordability credits. Shit. Anyone can open a house of prostitution, use children as whores and get funded by taxpayers under Obama's ACORN. Do you seriously think that things will be better under the Obama freebie health give away???? Seriously???

Even Alf could qualify under this plan

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Hah. Justice !!

Chase said...

Earlier today President Obama called Kanye West a "Jackass" for interrupting Taylor Swift at the VMA's.

Gee . . . .Do you think the President said that because Kanye is black?

Chase said...

`
Beyonce giving Taylor Swift her moment.

Beyonce - all class

Kanye West - all ass

peter hoh said...

Kanye is on Leno right now. Leno mentioned that he had met Kanye's mom. "So what would she think about this?" he asked. Ouch.

JAL said...

Someone here or on a similar Kanye West Althouse thred asked about the feathered thingey/person

She apparently changed her garb multiple times, all of which can be viewed here:

Lady Gaga's MTV wardrobe

I can tell I'm not missing a thing.
(Sorry for duplicate posts.)

wv = zonowpen
Psychotropic Lady Gaga is on