September 13, 2009

"Boy, was I wrong. I can remember telling Glenn Reynolds during CPAC that these Tea Party demonstrations were rinky-dink and going nowhere."

Says Roger Simon, and let me add that's exactly what I thought.
Barely more than a half-year later, they’re putting two million people on the Washington Mall. Wow! If I were Obama & Co., I’d be afraid, I’d be very afraid. . . . Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod are going to be looking at each other like nervous apparatchiks in the Politburo because someone is going to have take the bullet for the disaster they have wrought. Emanuel is looking like a particular dummy right now for opening his mouth about not missing a good crisis.
Quoted today at Instapundit.

162 comments:

Bissage said...

When you go into your desk drawer for the second letter, it reads: “Prepare Two Letters.”

wv = lityac. Works fine but not as well as ipecac.

kentuckyliz said...

I saw the massive crowds on TV and thought, well, pressure's on.

The Big O flees to Minnesota to escape it and gives an "unprecedented" Saturday rally.

Fleeing makes him look like a scared weasel.

He is a politician in name only. He doesn't know how to make things happen beyond the community organizer level, so he should have stayed at a community level public office.

I wonder if LBJ can see this...I think I can hear him laughing.

wv buggen
The president's continued partisan campaigning is buggen me. Politics is the art of the possible; has he never heard of compromise? Does namecalling make compromise more possible, or less? It's buggen me.

Not Rosemary Port said...

ABC News Was Misquoted on Crowd Size
ABC News Reported D.C. Rally Size in Tens of Thousands, Not 1M to 1.5M as Activist Said.
Sept. 12, 2009—

Conservative activists, who organized a march on the U.S. Capitol today in protest of the Obama administration's health care agenda and government spending, erroneously attributed reports on the size of the crowds to ABC News.

Matt Kibbe, president of FreedomWorks, the group that organized the event, said on stage at the rally that ABC News was reporting that 1 million to 1.5 million people were in attendance.

At no time did ABC News, or its affiliates, report a number anywhere near as large. ABCNews.com reported an approximate figure of 60,000 to 70,000 protesters, attributed to the Washington, D.C., fire department. In its reports, ABC News Radio described the crowd as "tens of thousands."

Brendan Steinhauser, spokesman for FreedomWorks, said he did not know why Kibbe cited ABC News as a source.

As a result of Kibbe's erroneous attribution, several bloggers and commenters repeated the misinformation.

ALTHOUSE DID ONE BETTER: SHE ADDED 500,000!!

Eric said...

Did he ever make anything happen at the community organizer level?

dcwilly said...

Two million? Nice try. More like 50,000 - 75,000. Not totally insignificant, but far from the revolutionary harbinger we are being led to believe.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/protest-crowd-size-estimate-falsely-attributed-abc-news/story?id=8558055

Ann - check your own link. It leads to a story from a foreign news service, which while repeating the demonstrably false two million estimate, captions the picture of these alleged to million mentioning only tens of thousands of them.

New York said...

The momentum that's building will likely propel the progressives into acting even more aggressively to concentrate power in the hands of the executive branch and its czars.

If they think that the 2010 elections are likely the end of their unimpeded reign, they will throw caution to the wind.

Republican said...

The same methods for crowd calculation were used for 9/12/09 and 1/20/09.

Look, over there, it's another unicorn! They're everywhere!

Pogo said...

Obama hid out among 15,000 party faithful chanting "Yes we can" in Minneapolis.

Despite the large TEA party protests, I think the health care bill is a done deal, and I think the new legislation will cause serious and prolonged division between Americans.

One small example:
At our congressman's health care town hall meeting yesterday, mostly his own self speechifying to avoid questions, potential questions were arrived at by lottery. These were chosen by tickets from a bowl.

Several audience members shouted objections to the woman picking tickets from the bowl, that it was rigged and unfair, etc.

It was emblematic, I think, of the serious mistrust the non-left has of the Democrats right now. They even distrust a simple ticket system done right in front of their eyes. That small sign had me very worried, because I myself did not trust her.

A nation cannot run without trust. It quickly stalls without that social grease.

The news media are not trustworthy. The banks are not trustworthy. The Federal Reserve's inflationary efforts are making the dollar untrustworthy. More than half the nation does not trust Obama on the economy.

This bill, in some form, will almost certainly pass, and then it cannot be undoen, even if we throw the bums out. But the lack of trust will make doing anything very hard, very slow, and far more expensive than ever conceived, because no one will proceed without hard proof their efforts will not simply be confiscated from them at the government's whim.

That's one serious goddamed problem that no legislation can remedy. Trust cannot be coerced.

rhhardin said...

Counting breasts and dividing by two gives the female crowd.

dcwilly said...

Ann -- care to fess up for repeating a fib?

rhhardin said...

I read (authoritatively on the internets) that the 2 million figure was a Democrat prediction press release so that any actual figure later would be a disappointment.

ricpic said...

Regarding Pogo's comment: hasn't the whole leftist project since the '60s been about destroying trust?

That's known as a rhetorical question. ;^)

Ratherlike said...

Charles Johnson, who helped bring Dan Rather down, in his redirected jihad against anyone from the right who mentions God, the South, or gets too mean to jihadis called Robert Stacy McCain a Southern white supremacist yesterday in connection with the DC Tea Party. CJ was also claiming he "lost count" of Obama = Hilter signs (funny, I watched video yesterday and did not see one).

In response, R.S.McCain gives one of the best comebacks and defenses of the South and conservatism I have ever read. Read it all.

Point I.

Point II.

Point III.


Wow, how far guys like Charles Johnson have fallen.

MadisonMan said...

I will note that 'up to 2 million' allows for the possibility of just 75000.

Estimating crowd size is fraught with error. They should build a big scale on the Mall so they can weigh the people. Great headline: 650 tons of humans protest in DC.

ricpic said...

Counting breasts with a goofy doofus smile on my face
Till an unsupported failed the test and I lost my place.

ricpic said...

Apparently the DC cops wouldn't allow an aerial shot of the crowds. There may be a perfectly good security reason for that but an aerial shot would have cleared up the controversy.

peter hoh said...

You want to stand by the assertion that they put 2 million people on the Mall?

Paco Wové said...

"Ann -- care to fess up for repeating a fib?"

And what fib would that be?

dcwilly said...

Paco: That there were two million people on the mall yesterday. It's a fib.

PatCA said...

I tried to get to one of the first tea party rallies in SoCal and it was so huge I couldn't even get close. I figured at that time there was something happening here.

I suppose it makes sense: with government expanding at a terrifying pace, the libertarian impulse forms the opposition.

miller said...

To: the Democrats
RE: 9/12 protests

Nothing to see here. Move along. Keep doing what you're doing; America loves you.

Shanna said...

Estimating crowd size is fraught with error.

Totally. And it tends to get rounded one way or the other depending on who is talking and what they're trying to say. So whatever. The point is, there were a TON of people on the mall, which suprised me as well.

I think the trust thing is very important. This stimulus started chipping away at the trust and then the health care thing has completely erroded it as we see what jerks all of our congressmen are, to the people who elected them. This is pretty much unprecedented, they usually at least try to plan nice.

Shanna said...

PLAY nice. Stupid typos.

dcwilly said...

Shanna: 75,000 (which is a high estimate of the number of people on the mall) compared to 2,000,000 is not a rounding error. It's propaganda.

former law student said...

I have found out why conservatives think that two million tea partiers were on the Mall.

The Mall was actually occupied by the
"24th Annual
National Council of Negro Women, Inc.
Black Family Reunion Celebration


"September 12-13, 2009
National Mall
Washington, DC

"The NCNW Black Family Reunion Celebration is a three-day cultural event celebrating the enduring strengths and traditional values of the African American family."

A natural enough mistake, as the demographics of the tea partiers and the National Council of Negro Women are identical.

Barely more than a half-year later, they’re putting two million people on the Washington Mall. Wow! If I were Obama & Co., I’d be afraid, I’d be very afraid.

If I were Obama & Co., I'd be saying "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."

montana urban legend said...

"A nation cannot run without trust. It quickly stalls without that social grease."

Heh. And despite that being the reason that Obama was elected in the first place, this John Bircher guy who goes by the name, "Pogo", is just starting to understand the importance of that.

"The news media are not trustworthy."

Well, that's a public institution. Nationalize it! - Oh, wait, sorry.

"The banks are not trustworthy."

Another public institution!

No?

"The Federal Reserve's inflationary efforts are making the dollar untrustworthy."

Lemme get this straight. The Fed's not a public institution?

Isn't it hilarious that a guy obsessed with painting the government as an illegitimate institution can't even tell what's a public entity in the first place when railing against the institutions which prove government's failure to us?

Please, rally more often. With a sense of perception this distorted, I might also be tempted to assemble and participate in crowds charged with the sole objective of soothing my wounded ego.

Pogo said...

Yeah, no need to worry, fls, once the health care bill is passed, all those who opposed it will cheerfully throw down their protest placards and chip right in making the New Deal work like all good subjects should.

Be prepared, however. Some of us working in the affected industries might just do a little work to rule here and there, add a few strikes, (HT to our new SEIU bretheren), and otherwise make your medical life just like the DMV.

Enjoy.

Pogo said...

montana, I don't argue with drunkards, especially not on Sunday mornings.

ricpic said...

What's with lefty commenters that they MUST insult?

We need a psychological explanation from Trey.

daubiere said...

"What's with lefty commenters that they MUST insult?"

See Alinsky, Saul D. "Rules for Radicals: A Pragmatic Primer for Realistic Radicals"

peter hoh said...

What's with ricpic that he can only see the insults when they come from the left? Maybe he needs an eye doctor.

The Drill SGT said...

Bissage said...
When you go into your desk drawer for the second letter, it reads: “Prepare Two Letters.”


The Joke I tell about project management has 3 envelopes. Does the poltical world operate that much faster?

1. Blame it all on me
2. rebaseline the project
3. make 3 envelopes

former law student said...

pogo is not part of the power structure, so "Alinsky techniques" should not be applied to him.

In fact, since pogo believes he stands to lose under health care reform, we should listen to his concerns. further, pogo's remarks here have never denigrated the healthcare reform side.

Shanna said...

Shanna: 75,000 (which is a high estimate of the number of people on the mall) compared to 2,000,000 is not a rounding error. It's propaganda.

You'd be amazed at how wide the gaps are between different estimates. I lived in dc for 6 years, I heard alot of them. That said, I have no idea what the actual numbers were, but we know there were alot of people. That's all that matters.

Maguro said...

You want to stand by the assertion that they put 2 million people on the Mall?

And who made that assertion? Not Althouse, as far as I recall. She linked to some MSM stories that speculated on the number, which no one knows or will ever really know.

It was a pretty big demonstration and clearly not astroturfed, that's all anyone really knows about it.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If I were Obama & Co., I’d be afraid

It isn't JUST Obama and Co who should be afraid. Everyone in office right now should be rethinking their positions and be very afraid. The Tea Party movement isn't JUST about Democrats. It is about the over reaching intrusive expanse of government and the lack of accountability or respect to the voters from the sleazy weasels that are in office now.

Republicans as well as Democrats need to be worried.

It is seriously funny, all the lefties quibbling about just exactly how many people were at the DC demonstration, when it is obvious that there were MANY MANY people there. More than the so called "million man" march. More than the amount that were militarily attacked by their own government during the shameful Bonus Army episode. If you also count in the demonstrations across the country at the same time the numbers are absolutely in the millions.

Quibbling over numbers is like arguing about the amount of gallons of water in the hold of your sinking ship while refusing to bail or fix the leak. Go down with the ship then stupids.

dcwilly said...

Shanna: you really to learn how to spell. It's not "alot." It's "a lot." "A" and "lot" are two separate words. Two versus one -- Iguess you were rounding down.

campy said...

Ooh, a spelling flame! This new troll is obviously a true inteleckshoo-al.

Doyle said...

Yeah there were at least 2 if not 5 million there. The country's actually 75% hardcore wingnut.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The country's actually 75% hardcore wingnut.

And a good thing too. You know what happens when you don't have good wing nuts? The wheels on your bicycle get loose and fall off.

Fred4Pres said...

I can tell you this, there were a hell of a lot more there than 75,000. Reports of it being metered early on came in at 500,000.

Was it 2 million, probably not. I am thinking closer to 1 million, give or take a few hundred thousand. But that crowd was enormous and a crowd of 800,000 to 1,200,000 should not be ignored.

Otherwise you are focusing on the tide being unusually low, just before the tsunami hits.

AmyKane said...

Time Lapse Aerial Video

Glen said...

...Says Roger Simon, and let me add that's exactly what I thought.

But you weren't wrong about Pajamas Media, so the current score is:

Althouse 1-1
R. Simon 0-2

WV = finch. A tweeted fisk.

The Drill SGT said...

dcwilly said...
Shanna: you really to learn how to spell.


and you really need to learn how to write :)

As well as learn how to be more polite to a lady that wasn't attacking you, just making a general observation.

Paco Wové said...

"If you can't criticize the facts, criticize the logic. If you can't criticize the logic, criticize the facts. If you can't criticize either the facts or the logic, criticize the spelling."

jacksonianlawyer said...

How illustrative of the statist left to downplay this turn out and quibble over precise numbers...something the statists were attempting to describe as a failure before it even occurred.

These socialists...particularly The One and his brethren who, with The One most specifcially, having been coddled their entire (political) lives...simply cannot fathom that people are no longer fawning over them (at least, those who might have done such fawning to begin with...no longer are statements of "trust me" working) and buying every single ware which they are peddling. The One is not even possessive of sufficient backbone to have remained in D.C. when this took place; rather, he high-tailed out. Typical behavior and the message it carries is patently obvious, "you don't matter and I don't want to(and, frankly, cannot) deal with you even if you did..."

Keep at it Statists...PLEASE...you will be in for a very rude awakening in 2010 and, particularly, in 2012...rest assured.

Big Mike said...

@Professor, I thought that they would become a strong movement precisely because the Republican party is not organizationally involved.

montana urban legend said...

montana, I don't argue with drunkards, especially not on Sunday mornings.

And yet you certainly seem to have no problem with taking your propaganda, talking points and marching orders from them, Pogo.

montana urban legend said...

What is the purpose of the amateurs posting photos or videos of aerial shots? These shots may show the size of area upon which the crowds are distributed, but they clearly seem incapable of portraying the density of those crowds.

And I mean physical density, not cranial density.

former law student said...

Time Lapse Aerial Video

Yep, 75,000 - 80,000 easy. Not as many as went to the Michigan-Notre Dame game, but still quite respectable.

montana urban legend said...

We all know cons like their wide-open spaces.

(Actually, I do too - but it's not because I have contempt for my fellow man and what I arrogantly presume he is not doing to better himself).

Paco Wové said...

Don't be modest, MUL -- you obviously have plenty of contempt for your fellow man.

montana urban legend said...

Not true, Paco. Contempt for the Cro Magnons and Neanderthals, sure. But not for human beings.

Paco Wové said...

"...you will be in for a very rude awakening in 2010..."

Yeah, well, it's one thing to get angry -- it's quite another to get organized enough to do something about it. I will be quite surprised if the 'movement' is able to stay coherent and focused enough to overcome the very powerful entrenched interests in the federal power structure.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Contempt for the Cro Magnons and Neanderthals, sure. But not for human beings.

I suggest you get an anthropology book and a dictionary.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Surely Obama will take the protesters' concerns into account, like all presidents take into account the various marches on the mall.

Pffff.

Having actually been in a million+ crowd in 2003 of people against the war, I have to tip my hat to these tens of thousands of teabaggers and wish them good luck.

Robin said...

As Shannon Love at Chicago Boys points out, the turnout is much more impressive because these people have jobs. I'm impressed whether it's 75,000 or 2 million:

"Getting hundreds of thousands of kids, the professionally unemployed and government workers to show up isn’t that hard (especially if someone buys the bus tickets). Getting two million middle-class, middle-aged people with jobs, careers, children and businesses is way, way more impressive.

We can safely assume that for every individual who made it to the protest that there are dozens of people whose grown-up obligations prevented them from attending."

SMGalbraith said...

My hunch is that these are (or would have been) the Perotistas who disliked both parties and their reckless governing.

Sure, they're rallying against the liberals but that's because they're running things (quite badly).

This is an ideal situation for a third party but no one is out there capable of rallying them.

If the Democrats - egged on by their left reactionary elements (see above) - dismiss them as racist wingnuts, they'll suffer mightily.

But if the Republicans pretend - as they have - to agree with them they'll be in trouble too.

Washington's in trouble - both aisles.

Beth said...

It was emblematic, I think, of the serious mistrust the non-left has of the Democrats right now. They even distrust a simple ticket system done right in front of their eyes.

But Pogo, what can anyone do when people choose to be stupid? It's stupid to watch a lottery right in front of you, and decide not to trust it. There's no reasoning with that way of seeing things.

montana urban legend said...

I suggest you get an anthropology book and a dictionary.

I actually knew that the Cro-Magnon were a population of early modern humans and not a distinct species as Neanderthals were, Bunny. But I kept that in just to test you and stir your sense of family pride.

Also, there is evidence that some Cro-Magnon bred with Neanderthals.

The Crack Emcee said...

The only thing that surprised me was the creep made it into office. So far, that's about the only thing (major) I've been wrong about.

I'm so fucking hot.

The Macho Response

Beth said...

I guess perception is everything. I followed the links and read RS McCain's response, and found nothing substantial there in response to Charles Johnson. He ends with a defense of Pam Gellar, of all people, as if that's supposed to show that Johnson's off his rocker.

I hope Johnson continues to effectively call out those who ally themselves with nationalist fronts here, and abroad. He's doing a good job of it. I'm a Southerner, born and bred, and I know call bullshit on anyone wrapped up in a Confederate flag and pushing that "heritage not hate" fairy tale. The Old South is dead, as it should be.

The Crack Emcee said...

Eric,

"Did he ever make anything happen at the community organizer level?"

What I think of as the best example of the Sun King's powers, before he made it, can be found here.

He's always been a corrupt loser - it's just that, for some reason, people have never wanted to accept it.

Beth said...

mul - Pogo is not a "Bircher" - what's up with that?

Paul said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pogo said...

" It's stupid to watch a lottery right in front of you, and decide not to trust it. There's no reasoning with that way of seeing things."

You're missing the point, Beth.

I am pointing out that the level of mistrust is so high right now that even seemingly innocent things like a paper ticket lottery arouses suspicion of unfairness.

It's like in any relationship where there has been a betraytal of trust. Once it is gone, trust is no longer the baseline, but is replaced by mistrust in all things. Everything is questioned ('where were you? who were you talking to on the phone? what did you buy?') Those thoughts may be stupid and paranoid, but they are the direct result of the loss of trust.

Mistrust has replaced trust, and that bodes ill for a single payer system which requires a basic assumption of trust. When mistrust reigns in any economy, things inevitably become terribly inefficient or completely grind to a halt.

You might draw another conclusion or consider it stupid; it's just my POV.

Freeman Hunt said...

I do think something is happening. Regardless of the actual number, just in the picture there were far more people in DC than I ever would have expected.

Same with the local protests throughout this year. I've gone to three. Every time I've left the house I've thought, "Well, we'll probably be the only people there, but oh well," and every time we've arrived, the protests have been packed.

Bissage said...

Sarge is right. It works better with three.

I should have remembered that three is a magic number.

God, I LOVE THAT SONG!1!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. A little known fact, Herbie Hancock played keyboards on that.

P.P.S. Okay, that was a lie.

Paul said...

Roger Simon ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer. I give him credit for all the work he's done creating PM, but he lacks the gift of foresight and critical analysis.

Case in point. After the Anbar Awakening I could see that Al Qaida was defeated, that the tide had turned and they were the "weak horse" in the eyes of the Muslim world. I knew this psychological defeat was fatal for the Jihadi movement, and while they might pull off an attack here and there their momentum had been halted and their reputation and appeal to recruits ruined.

I commented on RS's blog that the most serious threat we faced was no longer radical Islam (still a threat to be sure) but rather socialism spreading within our own government and brainwashed population.

Roger responded that he didn't know what planet I resided on, that from where he stood socialism was in retreat in the world and not even remotely the threat that Al Qaida was, etc.

Well well. Some of us can see ahead, and some of us can even sense what is around the corner. And some of us never know what's going on until it has already happened. And then there are those who will never know or admit reality no matter how crushingly obvious it has become. They are well represented by the lefty trolls on this blog and their compatriots in the population at large. They are like the Soviet citizens who as they were put against the wall to be executed were heard to say that if Stalin only knew, certainly they wouldn't be slated for liquidation.

True believers to the bitter end.

montana urban legend said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pogo said...

"You're missing the point, Beth."

Alternative idea:
I didn't explain my point clearly.

montana urban legend said...

What's up with that is his attitude, ill-informed and obsessed with 50s-style, Red Scare, anti-communist paranoia, comes straight from the pages of The John Birch Society. What's up with that is that both they and he need to realize that we're not living in a certain historical period, but a different one.

If he wants to be as sloppy as he is with labeling everyone not sufficiently right-of-center in a pejorative, demonizing way, I can certainly take more accurate liberties with how I label the ignorance and paranoia that characterize his right-leaning rants.

Paul said...

"If he wants to be as sloppy with labeling everyone not sufficiently right-of-center in a pejorative way, I can certainly take more accurate liberties with how I label the ignorance and paranoia that characterize his right-leaning rants."

Yeah as opposed to Neanderthals and Cro Magnons, right?

You are operating with less than a fraction of Pogo's intelligence and experience and everyone sees it.

The Crack Emcee said...

Beth,

I know you don't like me - so will probably not care about what I'm about to say - but Charles Johnson strikes me as becoming pretty nutty, too.

I've been a pretty rah-rah member of LGF's lizard army for a while now, but recently, after I questioned Chuck (and pretty lightly by TMR standards) he's completely locked me out of his server, which I find to be wildly extreme.

And, BTW, the Confederate flag don't bother me.

The Crack Emcee said...

Bissage,

Fuck, I somehow forget about that song and thought you were talking about this song, which was made from that song.

I'm getting to old for this shit,...

Paco Wové said...

"My hunch is that these are (or would have been) the Perotistas who disliked both parties and their reckless governing."

Yes, I think there are a lot of parallels between the teapartiers of today and the Reform Party members of the early '90's. Some obvious differences, too, like much less organization and no centralized leadership. But can the teapartiers learn from the mistakes of the Reform party, or will they just end up draining votes away from Republicans again?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

But can the teapartiers learn from the mistakes of the Reform party, or will they just end up draining votes away from Republicans again?

This is my fear. A third party or third party candidate would split the vote and we would end up with Obama for another term.

Sheer disaster for generations to come. If this were to happen, I also suspect that we would see some violence and actual disintegration of the country.

I seriously expect that the US will be unable to survive and within the next 30 years cease to be 'united'. I'll be dead but my children and grandchildren will have to deal with the shackles we have forged for them by not stopping Obama and his socialist agenda in its tracks.

montana urban legend said...

Yeah as opposed to Neanderthals and Cro Magnons, right?

You are operating with less than a fraction of Pogo's intelligence and experience and everyone sees it.


I did this one time (maybe twice, if you count clarifications) as a joke, whereas Pogo does it as a matter of course. But if you want to look to him as your intellectual guiding light, please, don't let me get in the way of that.

You are following a hypocrite who feels comfortable pretending he has no choice but to take payments from the government while availing himself of every opportunity he can to decry the illegitimacy of how others, much less fortunate than he, also make use of such a system.

He is not a credible ally to you - intellectually or ethically - in this fight. He has no authority other than the authority of someone who has stood by and consistently just watched (and complained about all the wrong things) while his profession refused to take responsibility for its shortcomings and for the state of American health care.

Beth said...

Pogo, thanks for the follow-up. I'll own up to communicating poorly, too. I agree lack of trust is a dangerous thing, but I think both parties are responsible. It's a choice. If the questions were taken by lottery, that seems like a direct response to worries about access and even-handedness. If in response, people choose to persist in paranoia, they need to question their motives, whether they're being reasonable, or if it's just more important to them to be angry.

bagoh20 said...

"The Old South is dead, as it should be."'

Surely we can say the same about socialism.

Are we really going to throw out anything associated with a culture that included slavery. That sure will make history an easier read.

Paco Wové said...

"...consistently just watched (and complained about all the wrong things) while his profession refused to take responsibility..."

Got that, Pogo? You're an evil greedy physician, and it's ALL YOUR FAULT! All of it!

Beth said...

Crack,

I don't like or dislike you. I often agree with the targets of your critique, but I think you're way out of balance as well. I don't have any personal investment in what you argue, though.

I don't read LGF's comments - I did a few years ago and was repelled. Maybe they've changed; in any case, if Johnson moderates his comments, that's not part of my experience. I read his posts. I assume he locked you out from commenting, but I don't know what that says about him.

Ludacris wrapped in a confederate flag doesn't make much of an argument. I know what it means to the people around here who have it plastered on their bumpers, and what I think about it.

montana urban legend said...

Got that, Pogo? You're an evil greedy physician, and it's ALL YOUR FAULT! All of it!

You can absolve him of being nothing more than a peon in this process, Paco - but not of being a hypocritical peon.

bagoh20 said...

This administration is looking more and more like King George III's circa 1770's.

Just Lurking said...

But can the teapartiers learn from the mistakes of the Reform party, or will they just end up draining votes away from Republicans again?

Consider that third party candidates appeal more to younger folk. I used to always vote third party. Until I took my vote seriously.

As one gets older and sees how the political game is played, third parties lose their appeal.

Unless a truly viable third party comes along, I suspect a lot of older voters will not go down that route. But enough still might, so it is a legitimate point.

montana urban legend said...

This administration is looking more and more like King George III's circa 1770's.

When I read comments like this, I think:

1. Very limited knowledge of history from which to draw examples and comparisons.

2. An extremely pervasive need for self-congratulatory justifications from a political movement whose bark is much worse than its bite.

The better comparison is to FDR. There were rallies too, when he started. You know? They were also loud and comprised of old-guard lovin' rabble rousers acting in the supposed name of every American virtue. They too were outmaneuvered.

Obama is restricted from running for more than two terms. But I think it's possible that he will find other ways available to him to strengthen his party in a manner similar to FDR did, in a manner that makes the right a bit less cocky and rabid than it was during and following the Clinton years.

bagoh20 said...

MUL,

You make my point, since your view matches the denial of the 1770's. As does the administration's. It's the denial that is similar. But, arrogance blinded them as it does you.

Hector Owen said...

"Obama is restricted from running for more than two terms."

His people are working on that.

End22 dot com, org, net

Barack3rdTerm dot com, org, net

All the same place.

SMGalbraith said...

The better comparison is to FDR. There were rallies too, when he started

It seems to me that it's a big mistake to make this a personality matter - Obama as FDR - and ignore the larger factors that are driving it.

And my historical ignorance is showing: what large rallies took place in Washington to oppose FDR in the middle of the Depression?

As I understand the times, most folks didn't have the resources to leave their communities much less travel across the country simply to protest.

I could be wrong.

montana urban legend said...

I think you're right, SMG, that travel considerations made for smaller rallies in D.C. in the 1930s. But I'm pretty sure they occurred, they were about as vocal or represented a similar reservoir of support and - toward the administration - doubt (considering adjustments for technical differences), and were just as unlikely to account for not just the personality of FDR, but for his political skill and the magnitude of the crises he was given leeway in facing.

montana urban legend said...

"You make my point, since your view matches the denial of the 1770's. As does the administration's. It's the denial that is similar. But, arrogance blinded them as it does you."

To see arrogance only in others and nothing but virtue and righteousness in oneself is human, to a degree. But it is even more human to admit for the possibility of both qualities in each of us. I opt for the latter. But I suppose that when one is gripped by the self-delusions bred of comparing himself to revolutionary rebels and war heroes, it's easier to opt for the former.

The Drill SGT said...

Let's just agree that we want all of America to remember the Obama Presidency, regardless of how long it lasts, for the next 100 years. :)

SMGalbraith said...

But I'm pretty sure they occurred, they were about as vocal or represented a similar reservoir of support and - toward the administration -

We all recall reading about the isolationist movement of the mid-to-late 1930s and their organized efforts. But I'm unfamiliar (or can't recall) any protests on a large scale against FDR's New Deal legislation or economic policies.

Again, I just can't recall reading about many but that's not much to hang my hat on.

bagoh20 said...

MUL,

I never mentioned the protesters, nor compared them to any heroes. My comment was about the administration and it's view, like yours, that the opposition whether in the 1770's or now, were nothing but rag tag discontents to be ignored. At least in that regard, the comparison fits. King George made them rebels and eventually war heroes. This administration is equally equipped with arrogance and stupidity.

And on a side note: It's pretty stupid to insult people if you are trying to convince them of your point of view. No wonder you support his guy.

Paco Wové said...

Hear that, you sniveling wingnut Neandertals? MUL acknowledges that you may -- may -- possess (some, unenumerated) virtue(s)! See how fair and evenhanded MUL is!

ricpic said...

Roger Simon ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Considering the immense distance he has had to travel, from fellow traveler to reluctant conservative, I give Simon a lot of credit for independent thinking. Plus, living and making his living in Hollywood, putting his political thoughts out in public has been an act of bravado, financial bravado.

The above make up for his intellectual shortcomings, in my book.

bagoh20 said...

What is it about blogs that entices people to claim superior intelligence. It's rampant in comments everywhere. It is pretty rare in person. I would guess it's due to the fact that in-person such claims involve having your "lessers" laugh in your face or punch it.

Bruce Hayden said...

Yep, 75,000 - 80,000 easy. Not as many as went to the Michigan-Notre Dame game, but still quite respectable.

Keep dreaming. I can guarantee that everyone I saw in some of the pictures from yesterday couldn't fit in that stadium, even if they were covering the field.

But, you are entitled to believe anything you want to.

montana urban legend said...

And on a side note: It's pretty stupid to insult people if you are trying to convince them of your point of view. No wonder you support his guy.

Actually, it's pretty stupid to:

1. Pretend that you can convince everyone of everything. Some people have the resources of an open mind, a willingness to consider facts and logic, and reason. Some don't. These people, for whatever reason - adherence to strict ideology over reason, stupidity, whatever - are beyond being reached.

These are the people who have had months and months to make their case, to say what they believe hasn't been heard, and try to convince the American public of their argument. They have failed. They do not need to be reached. Both for reasons of an incompatible approach to the dialogue, and now, politically. It is now up to Obama to follow through on reform on behalf of the clear majority of the American public that voted for him and the platform he ran on, and that still support reform. Their numbers are larger. They matter more than the dissenters.

For you to not see this betrays an extremely blind sense of arrogance in yourself, and some kind of intellectual shortcoming regarding an understanding of the political process.

2. It's stupid to pretend that just "being pissed off and not willing to take it anymore" makes the dissenters any more dangerous/effective than it made the Revolutionary Army.

3. It's stupid to pretend that the right-wing hate machine, active and in full hard-on mode for about 15 years, hasn't simply morphed into the "dissenters" (whatever legitimate elements ever existed among them) in order to give their failing egos a boost, and isn't able to take the same medicine that it has dished out for all that time. It's stupid to put an American flag on their vans and props and waaambulances and pretend that that somehow makes them a more legitimate and patriotic movement, worthy of comparisons to whoever took on George III.

Please, I'm looking for your even-handed, mild-mannered, humble and intellectually temperate response to all this. By all means. Be my guest.

former law student said...

Keep dreaming. I can guarantee that everyone I saw in some of the pictures from yesterday couldn't fit in that stadium, even if they were covering the field.

Using the Promise Keepers "Stand in the Gap" rally as a yardstick, the tea partiers occupied less than 10% of the space it took to hold one million Christian men.

Now, someone argued that people came, stayed briefly, and left. Which to suggests that to get to 2 million, the same 70K people... well you get the picture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAmcCdvZCDg

LonewackoDotCom said...

"Boy, was I wrong. I can remember telling Dr. Reynolds that his Miracle Cure for Lumbago was hogwash. But, it works! Give me two bottles!" - quote from the National Shill Historical Project, 1939

Meanwhile, here's my comprehensive post about yesterday's tea party. I'll tell you the things about the speakers and those involved that no one else will. See the first "tea parties" link at that post for much, much more on their "movement".

Just Lurking said...

I said : "I used to always vote third party. Until I took my vote seriously."

Should say:

"I used to often vote third party. Until I took my vote seriously."

(Not that it really matters, but I just want to be accurate.)

Sofa King said...

Some people have the resources of an open mind, a willingness to consider facts and logic, and reason. Some don't. These people, for whatever reason - adherence to strict ideology over reason, stupidity, whatever - are beyond being reached.

Claptrap. You can't so blithely assert that in such complicated policy - and yes, ideological - matters a person may not have reasoned opposition. And who, exactly, has tried to actually reason to the opposition? Repeated invocation of factually unsupportable platitudes, nor shaming and moralizing, do not count as any kinds of "reasoning" that I am familiar with.

peter hoh said...

I used the new math to count people in church this morning. I can honestly say that there were up to 120,000 people in the pews.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

But I'm unfamiliar (or can't recall) any protests on a large scale against FDR's New Deal legislation or economic policies.



The Bonus Army

Quite a lot of very angry people for the time since traveling was difficult and communication across the country wasn't as easy as it is today.

Also, you must realize that the Tea Party Protest isn't just about Obama. It is about government spending and spending and spending and about government intruding into all aspects of our lives. Obama is just the tip of the iceberg...or more likely the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Bonus Army.....one of the most shameful episodes in American history.

"Attorney General Mitchell ordered the evacuation of the veterans from all government property, Entrusted with the job, the Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two marchers killed. Learning of the shooting at lunch, President Hoover ordered the army to clear out the veterans. Infantry
Troops prepare to evacuate the
Bonus Army
July 28, 1932
and cavalry supported by six tanks were dispatched with Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur in command. Major Dwight D. Eisenhower served as his liaison with Washington police and Major George Patton led the cavalry.

By 4:45 P.M. the troops were massed on Pennsylvania Ave. below the Capitol. Thousands of Civil Service employees spilled out of work and lined the streets to watch. The veterans, assuming the military display was in their honor, cheered. Suddenly Patton's troopers turned and charged. "Shame, Shame" the spectators cried. Soldiers with fixed bayonets followed, hurling tear gas into the crowd. "

Expect the same treatment from King Obama if the teaparty movement gets much bigger.

peter hoh said...

1932 protest in Washington

Paco Wové said...

However, the Bonus Army incident happened on Hoover's watch, not FDR's -- and it clearly couldn't have been in response to any New Deal policies.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Actually the Bonus Army was during the last part of Hoover's administration but they continued to protest throughout FDR's as well.

Perhaps this is why Obama and the Dems want to lable returning Veterans as terrorists and encourage them through the V.A. Hospital counseling to commit suicide.

peter hoh said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
peter hoh said...

Here's another 1932 protest.

Cox's Army.

Love the Hoover reaction.

In January 1932 Cox led a march of 25,000 unemployed Pennsylvanians, dubbed "Cox's Army", on Washington, D.C, the largest demonstration to date in the nation's capital. He hoped the action would stir Congress to start a public works program. Even Pennsylvania's Republican governor Gifford Pinchot backed Cox's march. Pinchot hoped Cox would back his own hopes to wrest away the Republican nomination for president away from Hoover. Cox had other plans.

Herbert Hoover was sufficiently embarrassed by the march that a full-scale investigation was launched against Cox. The Republican National Committee wanted to know how Cox was able to purchase enough gasoline to get the marchers to Washington, suggesting the Vatican, or Democratic supporters of Al Smith funded the operation. It turned out that Andrew Mellon had quietly ordered his Gulf Oil gas stations to dispense free gas to the marchers. This proved to be the pretext for Hoover to remove Mellon from his post as Secretary of the Treasury.

peter hoh said...

previous comment removed because it appeared to be endorsing a comment I don't wish to endorse.

Yes, Cox's Army and the Bonus Army were under Hoover. On the other end of Roosevelt's presidency, according to my high school English teacher, children in her Main Line (outside Philly) neighborhood arranged an impromptu parade following FDR's death and chanted things like "Ha Ha, Mrs. Roosevelt; You're a widow now."

LonewackoDotCom said...

The Cox Army was apparently marching because they were unemployed.

Meanwhile, the "tea parties" are just a smidgen different. Instapundit himself linked to a page at another site where the wonderful blogger pointed out that those marching today are the ones with jobs.

My take on that is in today's update of the aforelinked post.

peter hoh said...

I want proof that all those marching had jobs. (Seriously, saying that they all have jobs is about as disingenuous as saying that they are all racists.)

But at least they were moving, so I think it's fair to assume that they are not plants.

miller said...

slightly OT, but funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ_tAe87ELo

Roger J. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

The Cox Army was apparently marching because they were unemployed.

Meanwhile, the "tea parties" are just a smidgen different


True. The Cox Army and the Bonus Army were marching to ask FOR something. Their bonuses and for jobs.

The Tea Party People are marching to ask to NOT have money or other things, like freedom to chose, taken away from them.

One group wanted something from the government.....we want the government to leave us alone and BUTT OUT of our lives.

And yes, I would imagine that most of those who attend these Tea Parties are employed, self employed or retired from a life time of employment. Unlike the Democrat astroturf protesters who are paid to be bused in and are mostly unemployed college students or chronically unemployed.

There is a big difference between taking YOURSELF to a protest and being a paid shill.

LonewackoDotCom said...

My point is that the TPers are giving the impression that they not only don't care about their unemployed (fellow?) citizens, but they're sneering at them.

It could be worse: they could have staged a "March Demanding that ABC Broadcasts [TV show name] In High Definition!" through Bangladesh.

Roger J. said...

MUL--perhaps you havent seen the polling data re health care and declining approval of obama--it makes little difference who voted for obama--we are dealing with a particular issue,and how the public is judging his leadership at this point. you may see nothing but clear sailing, but there are certainly other interpreations.

but by all means continue to impress us with your grasp of logic, reason and analysis. Its working--keep repeating and garage and dtl may even believe. This a fucking blog and your pretentions impress no one but yourself.

Beth said...

The above make up for his intellectual shortcomings, in my book.

But nothing makes up for that hat.

LonewackoDotCom said...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're tired, blah blah blah. Who cares? There are other people in the world, not just you.

Every PolicyPrescription from the TPers is like something you'd see in this.

LonewackoDotCom said...

I mean, really: we've got two wars going on, millions of Americans are out of work, millions of foreign citizens are squatting here contrary to our laws, and all the TP loons ultimately care about is being able to upgrade their big screen TVs.

Just go Galt already, no one's going to miss you.

Paul said...

ripic,

"Considering the immense distance he has had to travel, from fellow traveler to reluctant conservative, I give Simon a lot of credit for independent thinking. Plus, living and making his living in Hollywood, putting his political thoughts out in public has been an act of bravado, financial bravado.

The above make up for his intellectual shortcomings, in my book."

I give him props for his work and for his turn against collectivism, but it remains that he is not a particularly prescient individual.

Many of us had to make the same difficult journey from the comfortably numb-herd mentality of the leftist fantasy world to the hard choices and compromises inherent to the constrained vision. Some of us are in deadly blue areas and in professions overrun with leftist crypto-religious fanatics who practice the same intolerance that all religious fanatics do.

The important thing is we all pool our energy and talents to defeat the forces that seek to destroy our freedoms and to gain dominion over our lives and property.

Roger Simon has played and important role in using his influence and celebrity to help develop an alternative source of information to the state run propaganda that is the MSM. His talents do not include the ability to analyze events and predict the future.

Joseph N. Welch said...

Two million?!

Hahahahaha.

Just one question, Althouse: how many people do you think were at Obama's inauguration?

It would have to be about 80 million, if that small crowd of "tea baggers" was 2 million.

JAL said...

Beth re confederate flags: I know what it means to the people around here who have it plastered on their bumpers, and what I think about it.

Do you? (The "plastered" gives you away ;-) )

I have lived in the South more than 30 years and I am not sure I know. I suspect lots of different things, to different people. Many people don't care one way or the other about the flag. Some with a rich Southern history care, but may not plaster the confederate flag (it's really the Confederate battle flag, or the battle flag of Northern Virginia, FWIW) on their bumpers.

Perhaps the plastering part indicates unambiguous "racist?"

There really does seem to be a disconnect with many parts of the US with the Amercian "South."

Funny, the most "tolerant" people in the country who have no problem with madrassas in VA teaching anti-semitism, or sharia finance law in taughtin American law school are quick to gag at the confederate flag.

I am not pro or anti, as they say in the South, I have no dog in this fight.

I do say that the history is real and should not be revised. The anguish of the war between the states can be felt when you read about the people who had to choose sides during that terrible trial of the United States.

But it seems denigrating the South and Southerners is as respectable as the figurative spitting at Christian and Jews these days. You know -- like "Althouse's hillbillies" ....

Synova said...

"My point is that the TPers are giving the impression that they not only don't care about their unemployed (fellow?) citizens, but they're sneering at them."

The whole political argument is framed as a moral one. If you CARE you're going to vote for government to handle this problem. If you don't vote for government to handle this problem, you don't CARE.

There is no question about the proper role of government or efficacy of government solutions.

One side is trying to have a discussion about the proper role of government.

The other side is trying to figure out why these hateful, horrible people don't CARE and coming up with the answer of racism.

What other reason can there be if no one is allowed to question the role of government to solve social problems, or even if government can, or allowed to question the "Right" of other people to your labor against your will?

montana urban legend said...

This a fucking blog and your pretentions impress no one but yourself.

That sounds like a rather rude statement to make regarding the stature of Professor Althouse's blog, wouldn't you say, Roger J.?

But I'm sure you impressed yourself with the outburst.

Anyway, the polling can be as labile as you prefer to see it today. The fact is that once the legislation passes way ahead of any upcoming elections in 2010, and the American people come to see not only that Armageddon hasn't arrived, but possible improvements in their access to health care, then Obama and the Dems reap the benefits and your side loses further credibility.

But what do I know? I'm just a pretentious asshole whose comments impress no one but myself - your inability to best the reasoning behind them, despite your best and most arrogant efforts, apparently notwithstanding.

But far be it from me to care to convince someone who's too good to consider a point contrary to his own narrow worldview.

Here's a hint: It's no longer about arrogance or pretentions but about who's blowing more hot air around. My guess is it's the Tea Partiers and their sympathizers here and elsewhere. Once these chicken little wanna-bes face up to the likely outcome of the sky NOT falling, Obama will be ahead once again. Just my guess. But it's happened before. Obama just sits back and watches his enemies cannibalize themselves with the frustration bred of declining entitlement. So be as impressed as you want to be with this spectacle while it lasts. I have a good hunch the aftermath will be a risible implosion.

LonewackoDotCom said...

I already replied to Synova or someone like her in the post I've linked a couple times already. The issue isn't that the TPers (the followers, not their corrupt leaders) want to solve our problems in a different way, it's that they don't give a whoop about our problems, caring only about themselves. They're Randroids whether they know it or not.

Synova said...

And how do you know they don't want to solve problems other ways?

Read minds?

Because the protests are not focused on solving problems so therefore you know that the people protesting don't care about solving problems?

There are a whole lot of things these protests are NOT about.

Also, Randoids?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The issue isn't that the TPers (the followers, not their corrupt leaders) want to solve our problems in a different way, it's that they don't give a whoop about our problems, caring only about themselves. They're Randroids whether they know it or not.

Let me see....how can I phrase this nicely....um...I can't. Blow it out your ass lone wacko.


Most people in the Tea Party movement are concerned about the state of the United States for themselves but more importantly for their children and grandchildren. They see a big government taking control of every aspect of our lives, taxing us to death and double dealing for the special interests at the expense of the majority of the country.

If I was all about ME....I would support the public option. My husband can't get insurance and has no coverage of any kind. He has diabetes and a couple of smaller related issues. We have no insurance for him and have ZERO desire to get him coverd at the expense of the stability of the country. I have insurance for myself, as a self employed person, and it is VERY expensive even for a high deductible plan because of my age.

So once again. Blow it out your ass you dumb fuck.

And I mean that in the very nicest way.

vw: shmat--- Shmat this!!

Synova said...

Also... please identify the corrupt leaders of the Tea Parties.

I realize that these dasturdly fellows exist in shadow and mystery as they dole out the astro-turf money but I would really REALLY like just ONE FREAKING EXAMPLE of a corrupt leader of the Tea Party movement.

Heck, I'd like an example of ANY leader of the Tea Party movement.

I understand this is a point of faith, but come up with some names because I'd really like to know.

Synova said...

I suppose this is sort of like being expected to simultaneously believe that George Bush is an evil mastermind and too stupid to function.

The Tea Parties supposedly don't have a coherent message of any sort and yet there is a corrupt leadership directing it all, astro-turfing, and somehow...

I donno... collecting federal tax dollars to pay black ladies to help white folks import and set up illegal underage Hispanic girls as sex slaves.

Big Mike said...

I'm just a pretentious asshole whose comments impress no one but myself ...

Dang! Montana legend-in-your-own-mind, you finally worked it out!!! Well done, sir, well done!

The Crack Emcee said...

Beth,

Just to be clear:

Johnson has locked me out of his server - out of the entire site - not just restricted my ability to comment.

And, just so you (also) know, I've never commented on LGF.

I save that pleasure for y'all.

former law student said...

The Promise Keepers, during the halcyon days of the 80s, before the dotcom crash, managed to get one million employed husbands and fathers on the Mall in DC.

The one-tenth (or less) that crowded around the Capitol yesterday are likely less than fully employed in this time of recession.

former law student said...

s/80s/90s

Michael McNeil said...

Also, there is evidence that some Cro-Magnon bred with Neanderthals.

No there isn't. The Neanderthal genome, from DNA extracted from the bone of a Neanderthal male who died in a cave in Croatia 39,000 years ago, was completed deciphering earlier this year, and there was no evidence therein of interbreeding with H. sap. As more Neanderthal individuals' genomes get deciphered (six are planned initially) perhaps we'll find that their ancestors did share genes with Cro-Magnon, but as of now indications are that the two subspecies of humanity did not reproduce together — although the likelihood is that genetically they could.

Shanna said...

I was there for the Promise Keepers rally (*not the rally itself, but living there) and there were a TON of people. It was the craziest thing, you would take the metro to the movies and there were wall to wall men. I can't compare that with this crowd because I wasn't there.

There really does seem to be a disconnect with many parts of the US with the Amercian "South."

It absolutely amazed me the kinds of things people were willing to say to your face, when they had just met you and knew nothing about you but that you were southern. I got into more conversation at 18/19 about the damn civil war than I had ever had in my life. How strange is it to go to college and have random people from new jersey start conversations by saying "at least we won the war!" (and some of these people didn't even have family in the US in 1860's). I mean, what the heck is that? I also had people who went to small all white high schools in Massachusettes convinced I had never met or talked to a black person even though I am from Little Rock which is far more racially diverse than the places these people were from. I mean, I honestly don't have anything against yankees, but some of them really had just never met an actual southerner and had a lot (OMG managed to spell it right :) of strange ideas about us.

I have no opinion on LGF because I don't go there, but to beth I will say I think there are mixed motives on the southerners with confederate flag paraphenalia, but when you find some idiot from massachusettes wearing a flag tie? Well, you know that guys an idiot.

montana urban legend said...

"Dang! Montana legend-in-your-own-mind, you finally worked it out!!! Well done, sir, well done!"

Wondering when you'll be unpretentious enough to do the same, Tiny Mike.

Beth said...

Crack,

I had no idea that someone can stop another person from surfing to their website, other than in a social network site like Facebook, where posts can be made "friends only." That's news to me. Very weird.

Beth said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beth said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beth said...

Shanna, while I've experienced some of the things you describe from non-Southerners (my favorite was "you're from the South? But you're so literate!"), I don't understand how the point that people misunderstand the South relates to understanding the people who wave the Confederate flag. There's nothing about being Southern that makes one inherently prone to celebrating that lost and unjust cause.

While there may well be more than one motive for wearing Confederate flag images, I've never encountered any that didn't make my skin crawl. If it's a mix, it's a bad mix.

Beth said...

Frickin' blogger double postings. Bleh.

montana urban legend said...

No there isn't. The Neanderthal genome, from DNA extracted from the bone of a Neanderthal male who died in a cave in Croatia 39,000 years ago, was completed deciphering earlier this year, and there was no evidence therein of interbreeding with H. sap. As more Neanderthal individuals' genomes get deciphered (six are planned initially) perhaps we'll find that their ancestors did share genes with Cro-Magnon, but as of now indications are that the two subspecies of humanity did not reproduce together — although the likelihood is that genetically they could.

Michael, are you aware that conflicting evidence does not necessarily invalidate other sources of evidence?

I'll admit that sequencing is more powerful methodology, and once we get to the sequencing of more than one individual then the strict replacement model will have a more solid basis than a single artifact and the reasons for supporting it will be conclusive.

Big Mike said...

@Beth, at least some people who put Confederate decals on their cars are doing so to thumb their noses at political correctness. Sorry if that makes your skin crawl, but I think it's an understandable reaction.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Michael, are you aware that conflicting evidence does not necessarily invalidate other sources of evidence.

Aaahh....so.... MUL

If ONLY you could bring this blinding insight into your debating skills in the political arena.

Unfortunately you are blind to the irony of your own statements.


/smiley face

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Oh and BTW....I agree with you about the admixture of Neanderthal and Cro Magnon. Did you know that Neanderthals may have beenred haired and freckled.

OMG!!!

They LIVE on!! Carrot Top

blake said...

I had no idea that someone can stop another person from surfing to their website, other than in a social network site like Facebook, where posts can be made "friends only." That's news to me. Very weird.

Any website can block an incoming IP. It's easy enough to get around, which is why it's so hard to block people with any effectiveness. And it's completely useless against someone who doesn't have a static IP--which is most people these days--unless you're willing to shut out a big block of people to get one.

blake said...

Why does this thread remind me of the dead parrot sketch?

Beth said...

Big Mike, I find that even more childish than clinging to a long-lost past. Perhaps it bothers me more than it does you because I live somewhere David Duke actually held elected office.

Synova said...

"While there may well be more than one motive for wearing Confederate flag images, I've never encountered any that didn't make my skin crawl."

Well, the Dukes of Hazard were generally doing the "righting wrongs and injustice" thing. The General Lee sported more than a bumper sticker.

I suppose these days a couple of "good old boys" wouldn't be cast in that sort of a role.

BJM said...

Something is indeed afoot in the country. Last month I met friends in the East Bay suburb of Danville at a favorite lunch spot that is an equidistant drive so we met there every 4-6 weeks to catch up in the very laid back, charming downtown.

After lunch as we walked to our cars we noticed a ruckus in front of the bookstore.

So we walk over and about 100-150 people with anti-Obamacare signs were picketing Barbara Boxer's book signing.

Seems they were a bit perturbed that Boxer was dodging constituents on the health care issue. Oh, and as Boxer snarked; they were better dressed than the average tea party protester.

When people in affluent Blue country protest; the Dems may have a teensy problem.

Michael McNeil said...

Michael, are you aware that conflicting evidence does not necessarily invalidate other sources of evidence?

I'll admit that sequencing is more powerful methodology, and once we get to the sequencing of more than one individual then the strict replacement model will have a more solid basis than a single artifact and the reasons for supporting it will be conclusive.


Thanks for the reference. However, phenotype (expressed bodily characteristics) is not genotype, and the instance cited (though extremely interesting) is representative of the former, not the latter.

Moreover, as I said there's pretty good reason to think that Neanderthals were close enough to humanity so that genetically we could interbreed if they and we wanted to, but even if it happened on rare occasion, that doesn't mean that any of those transferred genes survived in lineages extending all the way to modern humanity.

Though thus far at present we only possess the genome of a single Neanderthal individual (a male), there are now lots of deciphered human genomes available to compare it with, and to my knowledge there is no indication that any of those specifically Neanderthal genes exist in modern humanity, nor as I mentioned (and pace DBQ's comment) are there any specifically human genes present in that particular Neanderthal.

Time, and further deciphering, will tell the tale as to whether that's true for other Neanderthals present in the fossil record.

wv: dectracy: Dick's brother.

Comrade X said...

I followed the links and read RS McCain's response, and found nothing substantial there in response to Charles Johnson.

of course you didn't.

Shanna said...

. There's nothing about being Southern that makes one inherently prone to celebrating that lost and unjust cause.

Oh definitely. I just mean that a lot of non-southern people are kind of obsessed with it (far more than most southerners) and when they throw it in your face and defame everyone in the entire south because of it, it’s kind of bizarre. And I think non-southerners who wave the flag are really a mess.

But alot of people my age associate the confederate flag with the General Lee, and I am talking about the car, so I can see motives being mixed.

Shanna said...

Honestly, to me the people with the confederate flag anywhere are just low-class (and I don’t really ever see them, maybe a little in high school but even then just barely). I don’t know what their motives are, but it’s confined to the young, possible uneducated, poorer folks. Except for some weird guy from Massachusetts who went to catholic university who was wearing a tie with confederate flags who seemed to think, on learning I was southern, that I would be somehow impressed. Needless to say, I wasn’t. I was weirded out.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

nor as I mentioned (and pace DBQ's comment) are there any specifically human genes present in that particular Neanderthal.


You ARE talking about Carrot Top...right. /wink

I don't see anything wrong with the Confederate Flag per se. It is part of history. For those whose heritage and family connections tie them to the Civil War, they should be able to display the flag. Just as the State Flag of Texas is displayed.

I do have a problem with people who use the flag as a metaphorical slap in the face and as a tool to advance racism. However, I also object to those outsiders who want to denigrate everything Southern and see racism behind every innocent thing just because of what happened 150 years ago.

montana urban legend said...

Those links were hilarious, DBQ. I knew there must have been a reason for why I used to have a soft spot for redheads.

And Michael McNeil is right. I was just saving face. Sometimes the fake lawyer in me outshines the scientist.

montana urban legend said...

But if I may be allowed just one tiny quibble or two...

Moreover, as I said there's pretty good reason to think that Neanderthals were close enough to humanity so that genetically we could interbreed if they and we wanted to, but even if it happened on rare occasion, that doesn't mean that any of those transferred genes survived in lineages extending all the way to modern humanity.

I don't see the connection. The lack of hybrid populations today doesn't preclude the possibility of hybrid populations tens of thousands of years ago.

Though thus far at present we only possess the genome of a single Neanderthal individual (a male), there are now lots of deciphered human genomes available to compare it with, and to my knowledge there is no indication that any of those specifically Neanderthal genes exist in modern humanity, nor as I mentioned (and pace DBQ's comment) are there any specifically human genes present in that particular Neanderthal.

The point, as I understand it, is having a representative sample size of ancient Neanderthals against which to compare. While the idea of Neanderthal DNA making it all the way through into modern humans seems pretty remote (and I'm not even aware that it was ever a viable or widely-held theory), the idea of humans intermingling with Neanderthals tens of thousands of years ago, into mixed populations that were maintained among existing Neanderthal societies, seems more plausible.

Time, and further deciphering, will tell the tale as to whether that's true for other Neanderthals present in the fossil record.

Agreed.

Joseph N. Welch said...

70,000 does not equal 2,000,000.

You have been duped! And I know you; you will never admit it.

So please explain to us why the photos of the alleged crowd do not include the National Museum of the American Indian. Where did that new building go?!

I guess the crowd was so big that it was able to travel back in time!

Gawd Althouse, you totally fell for this one.

HAHAHAHA

peter hoh said...

Joseph N. Welch, yesterday we concluded that the photo (sans the National Museum of the American Indian) was not legit.

peter hoh said...

Actually, we figured it out Saturday.

Photo was linked at 10:41, refuted at 10:52.