August 26, 2009

Teddy Kennedy's death will be used to rekindle the old argument that we need to shut up and hurry up about health care reform.

So I assume.

But now the Democrats are short a vote in the Senate, and Democratic Governor Deval Patrick can't just appoint a new Democratic Senator for Massachusetts, despite the fact that Kennedy himself, less than a month ago, urged state legislators to change the law of successsion and give Patrick the power to appoint a Senator, because back in 2004, anticipating that John Kerry would win the presidency, Kennedy was instrumental in getting state legislative change designed to wrest the power from the Massachusetts governor, when the governor was the Republican Mitt Romney.

So there are 2 questions: 1. Is the death of Teddy Kennedy a sufficiently powerful event to counter the opposition to the health care bill? and 2. Is the death of Teddy Kennedy a sufficiently powerful event to overcome the embarrassment of changing the Massachusetts law back to what it was before it was changed to thwart a Republican?

208 comments:

1 – 200 of 208   Newer›   Newest»
Theo Boehm said...

The Great and General Court of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is incapable of embarrassment.

Charlie said...

1) Absolutely shouldn't -- has no objective effect on the issues or the facts.

2) Absolutely won't. No embarrassment possible on the part of the dems (e.g., changing rules to dump the Torch)

The Crack Emcee said...

Good riddance.

kentuckyliz said...

Teddy Kennedy's death should call to mind the most important event of his life, and we should pass a bill attaching breathalyzer controls to all vehicle ignitions.

WV cultypin
Obama logo button worn by a starry eyed worshipper

(not many of those left yesterday, I remember being surprised at seeing an Obama bumper sticker a couple days ago...they have all disappeared)

NKVD said...

1) It better not be - the opposition is based on the contents of the bill, not the characters who are pushing it.

2) Liberals? Embarrassed? Ha!

NKVD said...

And another thing - would he have lived to 77 had he been forced to use Obama(doesn't)Care? No way - he was an old fart with a terminal illness. Take a pill, go home and die. Not that that's a bad thing, in his case.

I'll believe that socialized medicine is a good thing when billionaire senators are required to use it.

Treacle said...

We are richer for having lost him.

ddh said...

1. The public's growing opposition to the health care bill won't change one bit now that Ted Kennedy has died. That will bolster the opposition in Congress.

2. I doubt it, but what do I know about Massachusetts politics? Back when I lived there, the Commonwealth was deep purple with somewhat competitive politics.

Joaquin said...

No big loss in my book.
Ted Kennedy along with the entire Kennedy family have totally squandered the Kennedy fortune amassed by Joe P. Kennedy to the point they are liquidating real estate assets to live on.
None of the 50 heirs have contributed while all have fed at the trough.

Jack Wayne said...

How can a state which elects Frank, Dodd and a dead, murderous socialist be embarrassed by anything that its politicians do? They will find a way to anoint another Kennedy.

Pogo said...

If the bill is given its due diligence, even if it takes 3 more sessions of Congress, he'll still be dead.

Capitulating to the unprincipled change in their very own law is fully expected for Democrats and their intent to become the United States of Chicago.

NKVD said...

Dodd is from Connecticut.

WV - shien - what illiterate Frenchies must guarde au.

Jason (the commenter) said...

I have another question. Normally when someone dies we are supposed to say nice things about them. Does this request on the part of Ted Kennedy amount to a self-defilement? Is it a cowardly/malignant way to die and are we therefore free from having to say nice things? Because when someone is dishonorably about their own death, like being manipulative about it to get away with hypocrisy, any person who says anything nice is in effect backing up that behavior and encouraging others to act the same way.

This last act of his sounds consistent with someone who would murder a woman and let her body rot until discovered by the police. And unfortunately that is how I must now remember him.

Bobby McGee said...

Ah you must be proud, Althouse! Your beloved commenters are virtually spitting on the dead. How civlized!

The right has always had such grace.

fred said...

The silliness and name calling of most of these comments reflect badly upon those of the loyal opposition. Sounds like the sort of thing I would tell my children to stop saying when they were still in grade school.

Should we list the moral stature of the recent group of marriage cheaters among the GOP at the same time?
Sen Kennedy was far from perfect, but then was Bush, Nixon our moral standard bearer?

The Bloated Corpse of Ted Kennedy said...

You said it, Bobby McGee. Some respect for me. Please.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Ah you must be proud, Althouse! Your beloved commenters are virtually spitting on the dead. How civlized!

Coming from the side that cheered when Tony Snow was diagnosed with cancer and died that's pretty funny.

Last time I checked, Tony didn't get sloshed and drive his car in a river and kill someone but I suppose liberals have lower standards for their ire.

LarsPorsena said...

Who is going to replace him?
Another family member to keep the dynasty alive?
The struggle is MA political circles should be as entertaining as Caroline's was in NY.

Joaquin said...

No Fred, they aren't, but let's also not fawn over a dysfunctional clan as if they're royalty.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Should we list the moral stature of the recent group of marriage cheaters among the GOP at the same time?

Knock yourself out pal. It's not like the MSM isn't doing that enough. But hey, if you want to compare some extramarital shagging with vehicular homicide knock yourself out.

Pogo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pogo said...

"And I know that nothing is forgotten or forgiven
You only got one time around
And there’s stuff running round my head
I can’t live with or live down
"


Something in the night
Bruce Springsteen

Jason (the commenter) said...

Bobby McGee : Ah you must be proud, Althouse! Your beloved commenters are virtually spitting on the dead. How civlized!

The right has always had such grace.

Grace is reserved for those who had it in life. Not for monsters. People should use their last acts in life to teach some sort of lesson. The lessons Ted Kennedy was trying to teach are obvious--vain self-interest.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Bruce Springsteen : And I know that nothing is forgotten or forgiven...

Not when you get a two months (suspended!) sentence.

The Crack Emcee said...

And that goes for Bruce Springsteen too!

Issob Morocco said...

Let's check in with Mary Jo Kopechne to see what her thoughts would be on this matter.

Oh that is right, Ted left her to drown to save his position in the Ruling Political Class and she can't tell us here.

Now that will be a nice meeting going on later this morning, won't it, facing your wrongs? Perhaps the children left behind on the road to hell will get a chance to talk with the Tedster as well.

Cheers!

Hoosier Daddy said...

People should use their last acts in life to teach some sort of lesson. The lessons Ted Kennedy was trying to teach are obvious--vain self-interest.

Jason wins the thread.

Clyde said...

Answers:
1. No.
2. Are ya kiddin' me? You can't embarrass people who have no shame.

And a third question: Will CNN, MSDNC and the networks ask the Pope to canonize Teddy, or will they just declare his sainthood on their own?

One final comment: He probably wasn't as big a scoundrel as I thought he was, but he certainly is not as big a saint as the TV talking heads would have us believe.

Pogo said...

Crack, is not even Nebraska worthy?

Shit, I detest Bruuuuce's politics, but that was one great album. I do tend toward the bleak, however.

jacksonianlawyer said...

1. No.
2. No.

p.s. - oddly, the word verification for this post was:
"tednedro"

sierra said...

1) If proponents urge quick passage of health reform legislation in Kennedy's honor, that argument will surely backfire. Opponents will wonder aloud what level of treatment would typically be afforded under the law to a 78-year-old man with terminal brain cancer. That argument may not be entirely valid, either, but it will be heard.

2) There is no embarrassment evident here in MA. Just as a purely theoretical exercise, I'd be interested to know what sort of behavior on the part of Democrats would be required for the people to vote in a Republican, specifically one to replace Kennedy.

traditionalguy said...

Ted was a Joseph Kennedy product like Jack and Bobby. They all did the best they could under those circumstances, and Ted survived the longest, and did his job as he saw it. It was a terrible heritage to be the sons of a Mafia insider.

Florida said...

Ted Kennedy's death isn't even a sufficiently powerful event to merit not spending the day thinking about Mary Jo Kopechne, who he killed in a drunken orgy of irresponsibility and left to die while considering only the impact it might have on his political career.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

The Kennedy's have always been socialists and have held power in corrupt ways their entire lives.

I for one am glad to see another one of them pass into Lucifer's loving embrace.

W said...

Ahhh....I am gonna have to avoid the MSM for the next two weeks. The euloging of ol Teddy boy will be sickening.

It is NOT courage to be a besotted philanderer and a murderer. Plus, people who rise to power reading other people's words and spending other people's money to buy votes from favored groups by borrowing from our grandchildren are NOT people to look up to.

Richard Fagin said...

"Is the death of Teddy Kennedy a sufficiently powerful event to overcome the embarrassment of .........." having elected Teddy every time since 1962?

The only close race was in 1976, and that was a racial backlash against court ordered school busing. One protestor's sign read, "Hey, Teddy, why don't you put your one-legged son on a bus for Roxbury?" That was about the meanest thing I've ever seen.

If the folks back home weren't embarrassed enough to throw him out of office after Chappaquiddick, then no embarrassment is sufficient to change their minds.

Those people are enough to make a guy move to Texas, I tell ya.

John Lynch said...

I'd rather talk about Ted Kennedy than health car reform. I hope it spams the news for a long time.

John Lynch said...

Oh did I say car instead of "care"?

Freudian slip.

Steve said...

How can the death of a 77 year old man from an inevitably fatal disease, a man could afford any treatment ever conceived insurance or not, treatments which would be denied any man his age under Obamacare, further the President's health care agenda?

FWIW, he served his country to best of his ability. Read that either way, but also respect it.

elliot said...

Politicians don't know the meaning of the word "embarrassment."

Mr. Buford said...

The one inescapable fact about Kennedy's passing is that John Kerry will now be the senior senator from Massachusetts...
Just thinking that reality through is enough for me to want to go have a Chappaquiddick - scotch and dirty water, no ice.

Pogo said...

Here lies a man who left a brilliant future behind him, on that small island in Edgartown, not so very long ago.

The Bloated Corpse of Ted Kennedy said...

It has come to my attention that, as I am now dead, I may be required to atone in the afterlife for certain . . . indiscretions . . . that may have occurred while I was up there on Earth. Accordingly, I must insist that each of you who are Catholic immediately commence reciting novenas for me.

In the event that I have irrevocably pissed off the powers that be in the church (and I have sufficient burning evidence right now to suggest that may be the case), I must insist that you non-Catholics request on my behalf whatever special graces may be available for the recently deceased in your faith tradition. To the extent pantheism holds up as more than a theory, I can use assistance on those fronts as well.

Finally, to Kara, Ted, Jr. and Patrick, Uncle John says "hi".

kent said...

Our loss is our gain.

Scott M said...

A couple of things come to mind over TK's death.

1) Every member of congress does, in reality, have a term limit.

2) Whether you love him or hate him (there don't seem to be any people in the middle on this one), he does codify an era.

3) Yet again proof that the Democrats are well-meaning, principle-less goons. Five years ago, when Mit Romney was gov, Ted Kennedy advocated passionately that a vacated senate seat should NOT be subject to an appointment by the governor, but instead should be left up to the people. A mere five years, and one tumor, later, and he's singing exactly the opposite tune with a Democrat sitting in the state's governor's mansion.

I realize the guy was deeply passionate and I respect him for that. I just think he was wrong.

The best Kennedy quote came from a guy I was drinking a beer with in a pub on Nantucket last year. "Ted Kennedy...great senator, horrible car date"

lol

The Diminshed Corpse of Mary Jo Kopechne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Diminished Corpse of Mary Jo Kopechne said...

Still no sign of him where I am.

Bryan C said...

The wording used in the NYT article amuses me. Thanks to the new law taking power away from the governor, the state can't immediately rubber-stamp Ted Kennedy's chosen heir to his throne. And this sad situation is "despite" his calls that such a thing be done. Despite.

You can almost feel the frustration when faced with the sort of twisted world do we live in. Where laws continue to exist (and are sometimes enforced!) even when they so clearly contradict the divine will of a US Senator. Especially a Senate seat that's Kennedy property. It's really just awful how these silly pieces of paper are always standing in the way of achieving peace and justice.

Tex the Pontificator said...

As if Ted Kennedy could not have gotten the best care available anywhere in the world. And people such as he (the nomenklatura) will always be able to get such care, no matter what they relegate the rest of us to.

hdhouse said...

so very nice to see the sickest of the right wing out in full force today. put together having contributed less to the public good than kennedy did in a day, you simply should be ashamed but you are never that are you.

i'm sorry to see this freak show.

Hoosier Daddy said...

i'm sorry to see this freak show

Then quit looking in the mirror.

Salamandyr said...

My mother died in March of the same cancer that killed Ted Kennedy.

Under our current system, did she receive the same drugs and treatment that he received?

Yes.

Under Obamacare, would she have received the same drugs and treatment that he received?

Probably, no.

That's pretty much all I really need to know about Obamacare.

Donald Douglas said...

American Power tracked-back with, 'The Edward M. Kennedy Memorial Health Care Reform Bill?'.

Joseph said...

From a pragmatic standpoint, I support enacting health insurance reform sooner rather than later. But I think the Massachusetts law requiring an election to replace a retired or deceased Senator is good policy. Its better for representative democracy generally and its better for the candidate/party that gets the seat to have the candidate vetted through a competitive electoral process rather than by currying favor with the governor.

dave in boca said...

a sufficiently powerful event to overcome the embarrassment of changing the Massachusetts law back to what it was before it was changed to thwart a Republican?

It's really stretching my imagination what would embarrass a state whose highest court ruled that a foul and unnatural event such as same-sex "marriage" was legal because it wasn't mentioned in the Constitution that John Adams, who in his wildest nightmares wouldn't have imagined even the possibility of such an unnatural perverted event in the future of the state Constitution he crafted with such care and brilliance in 1770.

"Erant gigantes in diebus illis and today the state is/was represented by such offscourings as Gerry Studds & Barney Frank. Isn't that embarrassment enough on a daily basis?

Bob said...

The Bloated Corpse wrote: "To the extent pantheism holds up as more than a theory, I can use assistance on those fronts as well.

Finally, to Kara, Ted, Jr. and Patrick, Uncle John says "hi"."

I love it - more!

I was raised Catholic, and I'm magnanimous enough to spout the usual cliches - stuff like "each man's death diminishes all of us," "all of us are equal in God's eyes," blah blah blah. Having spouted the cliches, though, I'm with the folks who say his family's loss is our gain. And nuts to those who say we should be ashamed of ourselves.

garage mahal said...

Our constant and habitual lies about health care reform would not have saved Ted Kennedy.

/Republican

Paul Zrimsek said...

How bad does someone have to be before de mortuis nil nisi bonum stops applying? I couldn't say for sure, but it's got to be a lot worse than Kennedy.

NKVD said...

Hey, HDH - how about you learn to write standard English before calling anyone anything.

And so far, apparently, all you have contributed is your self-confessed tax evasion - nice when you don't play by the rules you impose on the rest of us, right you commie bastard?

And you are right - back in July of '69 Teddy did accomplish more than I ever have - he killed someone. Quite the idol you have there.

WV - demonons - when regular demons aren't enough.

Steve said...

Mary Jo was unavailable for comment.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

As others have noted. If the Dems try to use Ted Kennedy as a poster child for advancing socialist....oooop I mean 'public option' health care, they will be making a huge mistake.

People will KNOW that the end of life treatment that Kennedy received in his wanning days is much different and much much better than they would receive under the Obamabcare plan.

The rich like, the Kennedys and the Obamas will get the good care. The rest of us get the crumbs.

It will be a big mistake to use Kennedy in this way and fortunately for us.....the Democrats won't be able to help themselves. You see.....they really do think we are all that stupid.

Florida said...

"so [sic] very nice to see the sickest of the right wing out in full force today. put [sic] together having contributed less to the public good than kennedy [sic] did in a day, you simply should be ashamed but you are never that are you."

Have another Chivas, Senator Dodd.

At least we haven't killed any innocent people today.

Michael Hasenstab said...

Someone please post the name of, say, three important bills that EMK sponsored that have his name in the title and were passed into law.

buster said...

I'm no fan of Ted Kennedy, but he didn't murder Mary Jo Kopechne. Manslaughter is significantly less blameworthy than murder in both morality and law.

Michael said...

Kennedy performed long service in the Senate, and some of it has to be recognized as good even by those opposed to what he stood for. All the same, he was part of one of the most monomaniacal chapters in our political history, the insatiable and immensely destructive lust for power of his monstrous and odious father, Joe Kennedy. And it's clear that that exacted an enormous cost on him; he may not have died for it, like his two brothers, but he clearly was devoured by it in many ways. Back when Andrew Sullivan was readable, he had the novelist Walter Kirn as a guest blogger, and there was an item he wrote that explains the Kennedy psychosis and its enablers in the press as well as anything ever written:

"Quick story. In the mid 1980s I went to a fancy Fifth Av. party for Senator Ted Kennedy. There were journalists there and lots of other bigwigs. The only time I'd seen Kennedy before was at a campaign stop in 1979 when he'd been seeking the Democratic presidential nomination. He might have won, but I realized at the party that it would have been a terrible thing because he was the drunkest human being I had ever encountered in my life, and chances were that it hadn't just started that night. Sure, he already had this reputation, but it was a vague reputation, all myth and gossip, while the intoxicated wreck in front of me was as vivid and specific as a car wreck. How many thousands of times, I wondered, had such behavior as I was witnessing been quietly countenanced by journalists, and how much other wild, scary stuff pertaining to other movers and shakers who had a shot at ruling the free world, say, had they deftly slipped into their back pockets in return for the right to attend such parties as this one?

"I was a kid then, in my early twenties, and I couldn't answer that question. Now I'm older, I've seen more, and I can. A certain kind of job in journalism can only be kept if its holder, for the most part, refrains from doing it."

Terry Ott said...

I am a political independent who supports any deserving politician or candidate. Honesty, knowledge/skill, openness, and courage to stand up for what they believe in is way more important to me than views on issues and policies.

I have 3 children and have used the Kopechne death story with them to make a point about taking responsibility for one's actions and behavior. I explained that Ted Kennedy, for whom I felt sorry because of the family's tragedies, would never again have my respect no matter what, and that I was one of many millions who thought that way.

On the anniversary of the killing this year, I was with a grandson --- a product design grad student not much interested in political things. I made the reference to "loss of respect", and he said: "That probably matters to people who are regular, but for Kennedy and those kinds of guys the thing that matters is having the power and connections to sort of scam their way out of trouble no matter what people think."

On reflection, I guess he's right. It doesn't matter what I and others think or what amount of respect I bestow. It's irrelevant in the big picture. I'll keep my anachronistic views to myself from now on.

L. E. Lee said...

Classy blog Ann. "Immoderate voices" indeed. It is also quite boring. I quickly lost interest in reading this one note blog but I thought I would check back to see how crass you and your commentators would be. You did not disappoint.

Florida said...

"Ah you must be proud, Althouse! Your beloved commenters are virtually spitting on the dead."

Let me make it perfectly clear. I'm only virtually spitting on the dead because I can't get close enough to actually spit on him.

Until they get him in the ground and I have the opportunity to piss on his grave, virtual spittle will have to do.

Sy said...

Why don't Mitt Romney put his name in the hat and run for the vacated Senate seat?

He will be considered as a hero if he won and stop ObamaCare on its track. In 2010, he will have that much more leverage as a Republican candidate for president.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I'm no fan of Ted Kennedy, but he didn't murder Mary Jo Kopechne. Manslaughter is significantly less blameworthy than murder in both morality and law.

Well that might be the case if he actually tried to save her rather than his own sorry ass then sober up for several hours before actually reporting the 'unfortunate incident'.

It may not have been murder in the legal sense but in light of the facts, it certainly doesn't make him any less of a bastard for what he did, or didn't do dependning on how you look at it.

kent said...

I quickly lost interest in reading this one note blog

Thank goodness.

Dark Eden said...

Ted Kennedy's death is a chance also to reflect on our Congress and what it has become. He became a senator in 1962 and has served ever since... that's 47 years as a Mass Senator... isn't that... too long? The original idea was citizen legislators. Common sense and an ordinary life were seen to trump experience as a lawyer, etc. Now we have a whole sector of professional politicians who serve for life. Is this good? Is this what we want in our country? Isn't Ted Kennedy's 47 years of service a failure of our system?

Michael Hasenstab said...

I'm no fan of Ted Kennedy, but he didn't murder Mary Jo Kopechne.

So it really was Peter Lawford. I thought so.

Scott M said...

@Sy

I agree this would be the better part of valor from the conservative’s point of view. However, Romney would HAVE to win. A loss would set him back too much with his presidential aspirations. As far as those go, I think the fringe right out there that wouldn’t vote for a Mormon just-cuz have seen that there are far worse things that can inhabit 1600 Penn Ave.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"Ah you must be proud, Althouse! Your beloved commenters are virtually spitting on the dead."

Does the fact of merely being dead suddenly erase all of the harm and self indulgence that a person has done in their lifetime?

Should we all become hypocrites and begin praising a man who, while a sad and somewhat tragic figure in life, is now above reproach in death?

There is no need to be happy or to celebrate the death of Ted Kennedy. However, to pretend that a man or woman is something other than what they were in life just because they have died is hypocritical To erase and try to forget all of the harm and faults is also sheer hypocrisy. You can be a hypocrite if you want to be.

We CAN judge him during his lifetime and find him wanting, however, God will be the ultimate judge of this man's life after death.

Deal with it.

MadisonMan said...

Why do[es]n't Mitt Romney put his name in the hat and run for the vacated Senate seat?

Because Senators make lousy Presidents?

MadisonMan said...

Should we all become hypocrites and begin praising a man who, while a sad and somewhat tragic figure in life, is now above reproach in death?

I think a better idea is silence. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. Of course, that runs counter to the idea of commenting in a blog.

L. E. Lee said...

P.S. I am sure Ann will use Senator Kennedy over the next couple of weeks as her red meat for her Althouse Hillbillies. Ann, you have to keep the Jethro's riled up if you are going to get a half dozen of them to post the same drivel a dozen times per thread!
Cultivating thoughtful commenter's would require work and skill. Though I realize these are skills you probably don't possess Ann.

Michael Hasenstab said...

Somewhere in Massachussetts, Congressman Barney Frank is conetmplating becomeing Senator Barney Frank.

I hope he does, just so he can one day co-sponsor a bill with Congressman Anthony Weiner (D-NY).

The Frank Weiner Bill. It's a stimulus package. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I think a better idea is silence. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.

Why? Is somehow pointing out someone's shortcomings and failures supposed to be out of bounds because the Grim Reaper punched his clock?

To me, Kennedy was an embodiment of what is exactly wrong with the government. They just played a quote of him on the radio, I love the Senate and I plan on staying here till I get the hang of it. I guess that was supposed to sound cute but if you can't get the hang of a job after 1 year let alone 47, you need to find another occupation.

I didn't like the man because of his politics, I didn't like him as a person and I didn't like that his every motive was about his own personal gain. I'm not glad he's gone, I simply don't give a shit.

garage mahal said...

Mary Jo Kopechne, in Martyrdom, will be celebrated this day, every year, in militia bars everywhere.

Hucbald said...

I'm just going to enjoy a full day of Ted's deadness before I start thinking about possible negative ramifications vis-a-vis passing health care "reform" in his "honor."

newton said...

"I'll believe that socialized medicine is a good thing when billionaire senators are required to use it."

Exactly!

Shanna said...

2. Is the death of Teddy Kennedy a sufficiently powerful event to overcome the embarrassment of changing the Massachusetts law back to what it was before it was changed to thwart a Republican?
Labels: Gov. Patrick, law, Mitt Romney


On Monday night at the gym the one guy (cafferty?) was talking about this and how much of a hypocrite Kennedy was and I was saying right on. But now I feel a little bad, since he has died. But man, he was politicing till the very end of his days. RIP.

Saint Peter said...

Please be advised that Edward Moore Kennedy is not currently a resident here and that any communications with respect to Mr. Kennedy will be forwarded to him at the address we have for him in our records. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused, and we hope we are able to assist you in the future.

Ralph L said...

three important bills that EMK sponsored
The most momentous, for good and ill, has to be the 1965 immigration bill, which effectively opened the borders.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Mary Jo Kopechne, in Martyrdom, will be celebrated this day, every year, in militia bars everywhere.

I wish I knew where those militia bars are located.

I think a better idea is silence. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.


This little piece of advice might be apropos to a local person who was an asshole in life but who really had no affect on the community.

When it comes to a 'towering' and powerful figure like Kennedy the 'just shut up' and let your betters talk rule doesn't work.

While I'm not dancing on his grave and have some sympathy for his pathetic life, I have the RIGHT as a citizen to speak to his shortcomings and sins since they affect ALL of us in the United States and if this travesty of a health care bill is passed as some sort of a sick memorial to this awful man.......it will affect us for generations.

The life of Ted Kennedy is a lesson to us all in what is wrong with American Politics now. And we have a right to speak to that.

So the 'shut up' rule is ignored as it should be in this case.

Obama wants us to shut up. The left wants us to shut up and ignore what is going on and ignore what they have shoved up our butts for the last 30 years or more.

I would think that you would be more offended by the liberals waving Ted Kennedy's corpse like a bloody flag so they can shove this health care through.

Chip Ahoy said...

One note blog.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

What a comedian!

That would be the place you come to drop your one-note tune. Absurd uninteresting douche nozzle.

Sy said...

@MadisonMan

Well Romney was the governor and he also served in an executive capacity several other times in his career. Romney's executive experience is extensive.

The old adage "senators make lousy presidents" only applies to candidates with WITHOUT executive experience, IE Barack Obama. Besides, not many senators get elected into the White House. JFK was the last senator to get elected until Obama in 2008.

holdfast said...

This loss will increase the supply of Scotch for the rest of us.

Joan said...

When I heard that Kennedy had died, my first thought was that Mary Jo Kopechne may finally be able to rest in peace now.

I really don't know anything about her, other than that she died as a result of Ted Kennedy's moral failures. If Kennedy had called for help immediately, Mary Jo Kopechne's name would be an insignificant footnote in history, like whoever that blonde was on Gary Hart's knee on the yacht Monkey Business. (See what I mean? I know there was a woman but I don't know or care who she was.)

But Kennedy didn't get help, and Kopechne died. His cowardice that night revealed that Teddy would never be fit for the presidency. I'm very sorry that Kopechne's life was cut short, but I'm also glad that Ted Kennedy was never president. Thank you, Mary Jo Kopechne.

Kev said...

@Dark Eden: Precisely! The Founders never intended for there to be career legislators, and look at the mess that people have caused by deviating from the original concept.

Hoosier: "{I]if you can't get the hang of a job after 1 year let alone 47, you need to find another occupation.

LOL. Well said.

wv: jacsc. What Althouse's oldest son could rename his blog if he relocated to South Carolina.

Pogo said...

Iowahawk had it right:

You Stay Here While I Swim and Get Us Some Universal Health Care.

"Special Guest Commentary
by Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA)"

garage mahal said...

I wish I knew where those militia bars are located..

Any bar where there is a gathering of wingnuts, teabaggers, astro-birthers, deathers? Heck, any Republican these days.

Kev said...

I wish I knew where those militia bars are located.

Last time I checked, they were right next to the Milky Way and Snickers bars. ;-)

wv: confessi. The honorable thing that Ted should have done after the infamous car wreck. (And does anyone doubt for a moment that, if he had been, say, Ted Jones instead of Ted Kennedy, that he would have spend the last 40 years in prison instead of in the Senate?)

Maguro said...

Mary Jo Kopechne, in Martyrdom, will be celebrated this day, every year, in militia bars everywhere.

Those crazy teabaggers, thinking about the insignificant broad that Teddy left to drown inside his submerged Oldsmobile. What a bunch of nuts!

Xanthippas said...

But Kennedy didn't get help, and Kopechne died. His cowardice that night revealed that Teddy would never be fit for the presidency. I'm very sorry that Kopechne's life was cut short, but I'm also glad that Ted Kennedy was never president. Thank you, Mary Jo Kopechne.

Thank you for dying, to spare us from Edward Kennedy being President? Yeah, I'm sure she appreciates that.

"Teddy Kennedy's death will be used to rekindle the old argument that we need to shut up and hurry up about health care reform."

Well, the right-wingers get lies, corporate shills and ignoramuses, and we get a dead old man for inspiration. I'll take that trade.

Kev said...

Correction to my previous comment: "would have *spent* the last 40 years..." (arrrgh)

wv: thegated. A sensible way to build an apartment complex, but a snobby way to build a neighborhood of homes.

elHombre said...

hdhouse projects(8:36): ...having contributed less to the public good than kennedy did in a day....

Speak for yourself, house. You know nothing about the rest of us and Kennedy's contributions were certainly counterbalanced by partisanship and profligacy.

kent said...

we get a dead old man for inspiration.

Ah. Then you're going to try the failed "Wellstone Funeral" approach again.

"EX-cellent."

L. E. Lee said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
L. E. Lee said...

P.S.S.
Ann whenever you push your old canard that liberals are filled with hate and conservatives are all sweet and honorable, please remember your blog on this day.

Tony said...

NKVD -- yur a dumass.

Joe said...

I despised Kennedy in life, I won't be a hypocrite and change my tune now that he's dead; the damage he has done to this country remains.

I've never understood the rationale that when someone you dislike dies that you must suddenly "honor" them.

Pastafarian said...

Hey, former klansman Robert Byrd just put forward the idea of naming the new health care bill in honor of the late Senator Kennedy.

Maybe a Republican should suggest "KopechneCare" instead.

No, that would be mean-spirited. We shouldn't be so mean to someone, just because he murdered one person. It's only one, after all; we're all allowed a mulligan, right?

MadisonMan said...

I do think it's rich -- funny, even, in a way -- that the rule Kennedy pushed through in case Kerry was elected (Wow, talk about a bad forecast!) is biting his own party now. That is true karma.

I wonder if Patrick will move back to MA now, and abandon RI -- not that he's done anything for that state except knock over light poles and mailboxes in his inebriation. Would MA be fool enough to welcome him back?

Chase said...

militia bars

You should not refer to gay bars that way, even if it is technically correct.

MadisonMan said...

Maybe a Republican should suggest "KopechneCare" instead.

How about Kopechne-DouglasCare? Just to be bipartisan in our enmity. But by all means, let's focus solely on the evil humans do.

I think I'll re-read Lord of the Flies tonight.

Pastafarian said...

MadisonMan -- you equate the death of Mr. Douglas with that of Kopechne? Really?

Did she fail to report the crime? Did she leave him there to die? Did she abandon him in the car and go back to her hotel until the next morning?

That's a pretty unbelievable comparison, MM.

Ken said...

I believe that a suitable memorial to Senator Kennedy would be new guard rails on the nation's bridges.

Pastafarian said...

Christ, MadisonMan, Laura Bush was 17 years old, and there's no evidence that she was even drunk -- it was a simple auto accident.

How could you make such a comparison?

I know that you work hard to find a middle-of-the-road position on every issue, but sometimes there is no valid fence to straddle. Kennedy allowed a girl to die, and not only got away with it, but was lionized and rich and famous, held tremendous power over the rest of us for 40 years, was almost elected president, and died of natural causes, an old man, after swilling more good whisky and chasing more tail than ten normal men.

Stephen Snell said...

L.E. Lee: "This place is a disgrace, and you a law professor! I'm leaving! ... I mean it, I'm gonna go ... and all of you, blog commenters! ... really, I'm going...."

Just go already, drama queen.

Garage, on your best day you're what you condemn, i.e. you're projecting, but keep demonizing everyone with the brains to differ with you.

I personally wish EMK had lived to see Obamacare face the death panel, but any death from cancer is sad. Not as sad as drowning in an Oldsmobile while a person of weak character swims off in a bizarre play at political self-preservation, but still sad.

The tax-loving Kennedys manipulated their estate planning to take advantage of the tax-friendlier laws in Florida (where they don't live) to protect Joe's racketeered millions--in public policy terms, that is worse than killing Mary Jo or crippling that other woman (Joe II, I think, was the crippler).

L.E. Lee: "This blog is beneath me!"

wv = mismsh

MadisonMan said...

Why is it unbelievable? I'm focusing on the evil men* do. There are no extenuating circumstances. Dead is dead.

If you think I'm being unfair, perhaps you should lead by example. Start by writing something nice about the late Senator Kennedy.

(*where men is a generic, humankind type of modifier)

Revenant said...

put together having contributed less to the public good than kennedy did in a day

Which day did you have in mind? I mean, take July 18, 1969 for example. :)

gregq said...

Isn't it a bit late to be passing a law changing the way vacant Senate seats are filled? After all, the seat is now vacant.

And while I would put nothing past the Mass SC, can't someone file to run for the seat, and then sue in Federal Court if the State Legislature tries to change the law? (I'm assuming here that filing for the election would giver the person standing to sue.)

Finally, what makes you sure that teh State Legislature will, in fact, pass such a law? There's go to be a lot of people there who want to be a US Senator, yet know know THEY won't be appointed by Deval Patrick to the seat. So why give him the power to appoint a rival?

I give it a less that 50% chance of passing.

Revenant said...

MadisonMan,

Why is it unbelievable? I'm focusing on the evil men* do. There are no extenuating circumstances. Dead is dead.

I agree that it isn't very nice to focus exclusively on the evil things a person did. The problem we face here is that Ted Kennedy didn't actually do anything good during his lifetime, so far as I can tell.

Oh, I'm sure he had some good *intentions*, but so what? In terms of actual *actions* we're talking about a filthy rich drunken philanderer who had everything handed to him and whose personal accomplishments ranged from "pushing a left-wing agenda" to "killing a woman and getting away with it". So if you have a suggestion for something nice to say about the guy, I'm all ears.

MadisonMan said...

I give it a less that 50% chance of passing.

I agree. And I would think people would be filing to run fairly soon. Isn't it in the Democratic Party's interest to get this settled and done to get a Senator in there? It's just too too bad that Senator Kennedy's previous works are biting the party in the Ass now. And revenant says he didn't do anything good!

Hoosier Daddy said...

If you think I'm being unfair, perhaps you should lead by example. Start by writing something nice about the late Senator Kennedy.

I heard he had good taste in liquor.

Pelalusa said...

Watching all the Michael Jackson like coverage today, 3 names kept floating through my brain: Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne Mary Jo Kopechne

Dusty Fog said...

One great thing about Senator Kennedy is he never mixed drinks. He stuck with Chivas.

A lesson for us all.

Dusty Fog said...

My work verification word was

borki.

NKVD said...

Tony said...
NKVD -- yur a dumass.

Whoa, I guess the literate left has spoken. Man, writing like that certainly has a way of putting one in one's place!

Did LeLee really say he was leaving? Why did he come back to write that? He's been gone for a week. I figured he was in an undisclosed location with Titus and Jeremy. And, as with Teddy Kennedy, good riddance to them all.

Bruce Hayden said...

Does the fact of merely being dead suddenly erase all of the harm and self indulgence that a person has done in their lifetime?

Should we all become hypocrites and begin praising a man who, while a sad and somewhat tragic figure in life, is now above reproach in death
?

Not praise, no. But not say ill of the dead, at least not this soon. Never of fan of his, but RIP.

jokerbook said...

may God Bless you ted,..
stop dreaming start action

kent said...

OUCH!!! From Ace's site:

“If they’re going to talk about Camelot, then we get to talk about The Lady in the Lake.”

That one's gonna be tough to volley. ;)

buster said...

@ Hoosier Daddy 9:39 a.m.

I didn't mean to downplay the enormity of what Kennedy did. Manslaughter is blameworthy enough all by itself, and Kennedy's subsequent actions were as spectacular an example of cowardice and selfishness as you're likely ever to see. (The coverup and intimidation by the lawyers, prosecutors, police officials and judges in Kennedy's pocket were an equally spectacular example of political corruption.)

Still, murder is the worst crime and wrong it's possible to commit, and Kennedy didn't do that.

AlphaLiberal said...

I'll remind the haters here that Massachusetts is where the first battle was fought in the fight for American independence.

So, hate on Massachusetts all you want. If it was good enough for Paul Revere it's good enough for me.

AlphaLiberal said...

2. Is the death of Teddy Kennedy a sufficiently powerful event to overcome the embarrassment of changing the Massachusetts law back to what it was before it was changed to thwart a Republican? .

Uh, Ann? Back here in reality that law was not changed.

I know, I know. You conservatives have your own facts and your own reality. And you won't believe this because a liberal said it.

Anyway, you may now go back to flinging your boogers at the recently deceased.

AlphaLiberal said...

Bobby McGee:

Ah you must be proud, Althouse! Your beloved commenters are virtually spitting on the dead. How civlized!

The right has always had such grace.
.

No kidding! Have seen a lower class bunch ever in your life? These people are consumed and twisted by their hate.

The Bloated Corpse of Ted Kennedy said...

AlphaLiberal - Thank you so much for fighting the good fight. It's very difficult for me to defend myself when I'm so far from where all of you are now.

And, on a side note, maybe it's the heat down here or maybe it's the fact that all they serve is cheap box wine . . . I don't know. I just kind of feel like my judgment may be a bit clouded just now, so certainly please don't take offense. But your sister . . . she really looks good. And, well, I do still have needs so . . . anyway. You're a smart guy so . . . anyway

garage mahal said...

Garage, on your best day you're what you condemn, i.e. you're projecting, but keep demonizing everyone with the brains to differ with you.

I personally wish EMK had lived to see Obamacare face the death panel, but any death from cancer is sad. Not as sad as drowning in an Oldsmobile while a person of weak character swims off in a bizarre play at political self-preservation, but still sad.


If Kennedy were a Republican you and everyone else here would defend him with the same vigor as you're condemning him now, the same way they defended every Republican rif rif [too numerous to name here] caught with their pants down the past 20 years. Conservatives don't care about this woman, and never have. What you do give a shit about is Kennedy didn't bow down to Republicans like most Democrats, and instead had the temerity kick them straight in the balls every chance he got.

kent said...

Have seen a lower class bunch ever in your life?

Absolutely.

Many, MANY times.

Hypocrite.

As you say: "These people are consumed and twisted by their hate."

Dark Eden said...

"AlphaLiberal - Thank you so much for fighting the good fight. It's very difficult for me to defend myself when I'm so far from where all of you are now.

And, on a side note, maybe it's the heat down here or maybe it's the fact that all they serve is cheap box wine . . . I don't know. I just kind of feel like my judgment may be a bit clouded just now, so certainly please don't take offense. But your sister . . . she really looks good. And, well, I do still have needs so . . . anyway. You're a smart guy so . . . anyway"

WOW.

Please stop posting.

AlphaLiberal said...

Kent:

Are you claiming I wrote whatever you're linking to at Dem Underground? I didn't. I don't write there.

So how the fuck does that make me a hypocrite?

Man, you guys are dumb.

Chase said...

Please stop posting

Why is it always about trying to shut down others (censorship) with some people?

He was commenting, not posting.



Word Verification: reamati
Please supply your own definition.

Alex said...

MadisonMan - would silence have been the best thing after Stalin died? Or Mao? Or Pol Pot? Come on man, the dude was pure evil and I'm all for dancing and pissing on his grave.

kent said...

Uh, Ann? Back here in reality that law was not changed.


The succession law was changed in 2004, when Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., became his party's presidential nominee and Republican Mitt Romney was the state's governor.

You're way ntoo easy, kiddo.

Alex said...

Man, you guys are dumb.

More projection by Alpha Liberal. Keep it coming.

Ralph L said...

first battle was fought in the fight for American independence
Here in NC, we claim that with the Battle of Alamance in 1771, not to mention the Mecklenburg Co. Declaration of Independence of May 20, 1775 (the date's on our flag).
You probably learned more about the Pilgrims than Jamestown, too.

Cedarford said...

Ralph L said...
three important bills that EMK sponsored
The most momentous, for good and ill, has to be the 1965 immigration bill, which effectively opened the borders.


Probably true.
Mostly for the bad.

In a bit of Karma, perhaps, Palestinian immigrant Sirhan Sirhan returned some of those "blessings of America accepting diversity from abroad" that Teddy backed so passionately - unto the Kennedy Family.

According to Sirhan's mother, Mary Sirhan, he killed Kennedy because of his Arab nationalism. She said, "What he did, he did for his country and his People."

======================
Bruce Hayden - Not praise, no. But not say ill of the dead, at least not this soon. Never of fan of his, but RIP.

The problem is that with death of a powerful politician, forces allied with that leader frequently, and immediately try hard to take that time of polite refrain from criticism to "Seal The Deal!". In other words, to speak of the powerful dead only in terms of their moral superiority, their wise and impeccable "legacy of brilliant positive change". And anyone who objects to the politicians beatification in death and disputes their "Great Legacy that America owes them so much for" - is a cold-hearted monster to speak ill of the guy.

Reagan's followers tried that "Seal the Deal" strategy as soon as Reagan died. His body was still warm when all the accolades started about how Reagan deserved sole credit for bringing down the Soviet Empire, all Americans must take this time to support putting him on Mt Rushmore for giving us Reaganomics, etc.

I understand Ted Kennedy had many laudable personal qualities and I won't speak ill of him on his personal life. But when accolades spill into policy areas and his allies demand that everyone else shut up about Kennedy's many imposed changes on America unless they have something positive to say --no deal.

Teddy Kennedy's existance left America far worse off than if he had never existed. That is my position. Unlike my opinion of his brothers Joe Jr, Jack, and RFK or Eunice Kennedy Shriver.

kent said...

Are you claiming I wrote whatever you're linking to at Dem Underground?

Does it say that, anywhere in what I wrote? If it does... then, yes, I did. If it doesn't: no, not so much.

So how the fuck does that make me a hypocrite?

A plaintive query, genuinely heartbreaking in its epic stupidity. FAIL.

Dale said...

So how the fuck does that make me a hypocrite?

It will make you one if you don't take this opportunity and condemn the hate spewed by the left when given examples such as their comments about Tony Snow in the LA Times.

So - you're called out and your answer or lack of one will prove whether you are or not.

Alex said...

Dale - it was ok to piss on Tony Snow's grave because he was a WAR CRIMINAL, don't you get it? But Ted Kennedy was a saint, and we must deify him...

holdfast said...

Hey Libs - There is a difference between "bimbo eruptions" and manslaughter. If you cannot recognize that difference than I pity you your moral dwarfism.

Dale said...

Alpha Liberal's been called out as a hypocrite (see above)

Time to put up or shut up, A**h*******l

Shanna said...

But by all means, let's focus solely on the evil humans do.

The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones. So let it be with Kennedy.

Cedarford said...

Just a thought on perspective between two lame guys:

Teddy Kennedy killed a woman because of a huge lapse in judgment and ran from the consequences of his deeds. "I can drink like crazy. Get this hot little intern across the bridge to a remote secluded patch of dunes, pound her silly, and drive her home."
Then shit happens......
"Whoops! I almost drowned! Poor bitch, I tried diving down but it was pitch black and my bad back is hurting so bad I can barely swim anymore. I'm in big trouble! Got to get out of here! The Kennedy family lawyers will know what to do!"

Bush - "The wise neocons say we must invade Iraq to neutralize Saddam as one more threat to Israel.....and in the meantime we can create a Stable, Prosperus, and Democratic Iraq for all the wonderful noble Iraqi people who will shower us with flowers and sell us cheap oil!"

Then shit happens......

"3,000 Americans dead, 11,000 seriously maimed, a country in chaos and a trillion spent is a small price to pay for the purple-fingered freedom lovers!" CRiticism from everywhere ensues... "It is easy to criticise. No, I won't fire Rumsfeld. NO, I won't say it was a mistake. I go with my gut! What I did was right, and history will vindicate me. Now why not take some time to wish our heroes well, remember 9/11, and wish Paul Wolfowitz well in his new job at the World Bank. "

History will show that Teddy directly led to the death of one woman through awful judgment on his part and badly damaged America with Open Borders and massive growth of enitlements, racial preferences, preference for lawyer cabals over voters running the country, and the Poverty Industry.

History will show Bush directly led to the death and maiming of thousands of Americans and blowing a trillion on "nation-building" a most unworthy nation.
That he left office with America worse off in almost every way, domestically and internationally, than when he entered it.
(That Obama could be as bad or worse is no solace.)

mccullough said...

Cedarford,

You need to join a fantasy football league. Put your active mind to some good use.

Chase said...

I agree with Bill Bennet:

To the American Left, he was their lion. To the American conservative movement, he was our bane. But today, we put the politics aside and wish him and his family God’s peace.

Big Mike said...

Interesting thread. I see that a bunch of commentators whose handles I've never seen before on an Althouse joined long enough to excoriate us right-wing commentators and then off they go.

I have to wonder. Does Daily Kos send out marching orders? Something on the order of "Bobby McGee, you go over to Althouse and dump on the conservative trash"? At least hdhouse and L.E.Lee have trolled around here in the past.

My answer to the Professor's first question: they'll try, and probably try pretty hard. Something I've noticed in the press and on the Internet is that Democrats keep pushing the healthcare bill because Obama wants it, or Kennedy wants it, or 47 million (almost certainly bogus number) people are without health insurance (but not without healthcare). On the other side people, myself included, keep pointing to serious issues within the legislation and saying that this legislation should not be passed until these issues are fixed, and probably not even then since it's almost certain to break the bank.

And there's almost no principled response from the other side. The closest thing I've seen to a principled response was from garage mahal, who (and I'm paraphrasing here) suggested that we should pass the legislation (I'm pretty sure he meant HR 3200) and fix it later if it's wrong. My thought is that getting it right ahead of time is much more feasible than fixing it after the regulations have been promulgated (by the bureaucracy, please note -- your Congressman will have plausible deniability.

A long answer to a short question.

As regards the Professor's second question -- I imagine even Mitt Romney is pushing behind the scenes. If it remains as it is, and replacing the late Senator Kennedy is up to a special election then I think Romney has to run because if he can't prove he can carry his own state in 2009 then there's no way he can win the Presidency in 2010. Recollect that if Al Gore had carried his home state in 2000 we would have never cared about butterfly ballots or hanging chads.

mccullough said...

Big Mike,

There's no way Romney can win the Presidency in 2010.

NKVD said...

Romney can't win, evah!

WV - harsh - no, really!

Hoosier Daddy said...

The closest thing I've seen to a principled response was from garage mahal, who (and I'm paraphrasing here) suggested that we should pass the legislation (I'm pretty sure he meant HR 3200) and fix it later if it's wrong.

It may be a principled response but it certainly isn't one grounded in reality. Christ it took 30+ years to get some damn common sense written into what became Welfare Reform.

But hey, I'll grant you universal coverage. Sounds fine except for one tiny problem.

We. Have. No. Money.

If there is someone, anyone in the Administration or Congress that can provide me with a straight faced answer how the hell we're going to pay for this it would be nice.

Pogo said...

For Gwen Kopechne:

Stabat Mater dolorósa
iuxta Oldsmobile lacrimósa
dum immergo Fília.

Eia, Mater, fons amóris
me sentíre vim dolóris fac,
ut tecum lúgeam
.

The grieving Mother stood
beside the Delmont 88 weeping
where her daughter was drowning.

Can the human heart refrain
from partaking in her pain,
in that Mother's pain untold?

Big Mike said...

@mccullough, good catch!!! I meant 2012, of course.

Shame and humiliation be upon me.

Revenant said...

I'll remind the haters here that Massachusetts is where the first battle was fought in the fight for American independence.

That's one of the more impressive non sequiteurs I've seen lately.

Pogo said...

"Massachusetts is where the first battle was fought in the fight for American independence"

...and now among the first to throw in the towel.

Roger J. said...

I dont know about health care--and frankly I dont see anything about TK's death that is going to change the current dynamic--other than the other 99 honorable members will pee all over themselves mourning the loss of TK. The only one who may be happy will be John Effen, do you know who I am, Kerry who after some interminable time now becomes the SENIOR senator from MA.

Drew in Sconnie said...

Well, Ann, looks like you're surrounded by some real class today -- more cynical, boorish and ungenerous than ever with the death of Ted Kennedy.

I have to wonder if any of these people popping in today were the same ones who gathered and posted vile comments from Daily Kos celebrating Charlton Heston's death.

I guess they fancied themselves better than that at the time. wrong.

jr565 said...

Alpha Liberal wrote:
Are you claiming I wrote whatever you're linking to at Dem Underground? I didn't. I don't write there.

So how the fuck does that make me a hypocrite?

were you on Democratic Underground claiming you've never seen a lower class of people, or accusing the left of being full of hate?

Lets also not forget similar links

Matt said...

Ultimately it is about Insurance Reform not really health care reform.
This is already the #1 issue in Washington so the passing of Senator Kennedy won't really change that fact. I can see Senators pushing for it a bit harder and other Senator's [maybe] treading a bit lighter than they were - but the march goes on.

We will get this Insurance Reform and it will be good for America just like Medicare is good. And in time some Republicans might even use the service...and like it. And in 20 years the GOP will forget it ever fought a bill that gave underprivaledged Americans easier access and less expensive healthcare. And then they will cringe when they see the way they fought such a popular program like they do when they now see the tactics they used to stop Medicare.

And btw, Ted Kennedy, R.I.P.

Veritos said...

Ted Kennedy is rotting in hell right now with Sadam Hussein.

A vile despciable man who should of been murdered years ago for his sins.

Someone needs to place a bomb on that entire Kennedy compound and kill the entire clan.

jr565 said...

(cont from previous comment)...when Reagan died, when Bush Sr. got sick, and when Tony Snow died (a few of which were referenced above). In fact one Huffington post article suggested that Snow got cancer because he was such a liar.

Also, Alpha liberal, since someone pointed out to you the fact that the wsuccession law WAS changed in 2004, would you like to clarify your take on reality and facts and your lack of grasp on either?

Drew in Sconnie said...

Veritos says:
Ted Kennedy is rotting in hell right now with Sadam Hussein.

A vile despciable man who should of been murdered years ago for his sins.

Someone needs to place a bomb on that entire Kennedy compound and kill the entire clan.


Hooookay, this is either bad satire or a liberal plant. No conservative can be THIS rabid, can they?

Pogo said...

Liberal plant.
Check the new profile.

I call bullshit.

Drew in Sconnie said...

Let's hope you're right, because if they DO consider themselves a conservative, I would quickly invite them to leave the movement.

Pogo said...

Hell, maybe it's Maurice Schwenkler, out on bond.

garage mahal said...

Oh yeah. New profile must mean liberal plant. No conservative would talk like that about Ted Kennedy either.

Big Mike said...

@Drew and Pogo, somehow Veritos brings to mind this little incident.

jaed said...

iuxta Oldsmobile lacrimósa

!!

kent said...

it will be good for America just like Medicare

Just like Medicare.

"... braaaaiiiiiiinnnnnnsssss... BRAAAAAAIIIIIIINNNNNNNNSSSSSS..."

Big Mike said...

@garage, for shame. Just after I wrote something nice about you, even.

Drew in Sconnie said...

Certainly there's no love lost between a conservative and any Kennedy, but this seems a tad obvious is all.

Again, that kind of nonsense serves no purpose.

Pogo said...

"No conservative would talk like that about Ted Kennedy either."

No true Scotsman....


I want Veritos' conservative bona fides first.

A photo of him in his Milton and Rose Friedman Underoos would suffice. Otherwise, it's surely a plant.

Revenant said...

Hooookay, this is either bad satire or a liberal plant. No conservative can be THIS rabid, can they?

Eh, it could be you for all we know. You're both using brand-new profiles.

kent said...

No conservative would talk like that about Ted Kennedy either.

When some conservative spews forth a twisted, noxious fever dream/wish fulfillment fantasy along these lines, re: Teddy or Pelosi or Obama -- give me a call.

The day some conservative cranks out -- to gasping media adoration, mind -- anything as bile-drenched and unconscionable as this sort of leftist death porn, re: Teddy or Pelosi or Obama -- holla back.

After the orgies and excesses or unbridled rage and hatred indulged in by the left over the past eight years: you look ridiculous, quite frankly, huffily attempting to slap down the Moral Authority card now.

Butch up, f'chrissakes.

Matt said...

kent

Read that link you included with a little more insight. No where does it say Medicare is bad. This article addresses the future funding of Medicare. It says if funding drops out it will not be pretty. No kidding. If you drop funding for Medicare it will indeed be scary.

Yes, funding is an issue. But as a program for Seniors it is very good and has been for over 40 years now. Once its funding is no longer in question Medicare will continue to be one of the best government programs available for people - especially Seniors - who cannot easily afford health care in this country.

garage mahal said...

Butch up, f'chrissakes..

Two links to Amazon. Slam. Dunk.

kent said...

Read that link you included with a little more insight. No where does it say Medicare is bad.

Read what I wrote with a little more insight (or at least a basic level of comprehension). Nowhere did I state that Medicare was "bad," per se. (Second leftist attempt to clumsily cram words of their own invention down my gullet, in this very thread. Learn a new trick, pups.)

The actual point being made, plainly -- so obvious, it borders on the leaden -- was re: economic sustainability.

But you knew that, of course.

kent said...

Two links to Amazon. Slam. Dunk.

Looks as if my lonely pair still beats whatever pasteboards you're desperately fondling over on that side of the table, Slim.

First time on a riverboat, I take it?

vince_pham said...

May GOD have mercy on Ted Kennedy and forgive him for what he had done to this nation.

The rest of politicians, just be prepared and repent before your time come and before it is too late.

Because GOD will ask you (all of politians) one question and that is:
" What have you done for my people?"
and be prepared to answer that?

Matt said...

kent

You clearly implied Medicare was bad. You used my quote saying it was 'good' and you linked a page that one could only conclude meant to refute my claim. Why else link the page? Again, just read what you link.

Also your links to Amazon were really silly. One guy writes a novel, which maybe 100 people have read and you are ready to tar and feather every liberal with it. Also, the movie [made by a Canadian] was a complete flop at the box office. Yes, in other words, the millions who voted for Obama did not flock to that movie. [I'm a film critic and I didn't see it either].

Now, you say you want to see examples of conservatives spewing hatred then try Ann Coulter who entertained the idea of killing Justice Stephens and Zeke Emanuel and bombing the New York times.
Yes, three little fantasies she has.

I don't claim she represents all Conservatives [I would hope not] but she is a whole lot more high profile than the links you provided.
Link

jr565 said...

Matt wrote:
Yes, funding is an issue. But as a program for Seniors it is very good and has been for over 40 years now. Once its funding is no longer in question Medicare will continue to be one of the best government programs available for people - especially Seniors - who cannot easily afford health care in this country.

Isn't funding though an inherent part of whether Medicaire is "good" or not? If Medicaire is not economically sustainable, then the funding will never be resolved. And if in fact Medicaire is underfunded, then you cannot argue that in fact Medicaire is providing "good" care. Because it's underunding means that it's providing false care or care based on false economics.
As it stands now, medicaire is already trillions in the red and will be belly up in a few years. Doctors already are not taking medicaire for many patients as they aren't properly reimbursed by the govt. And private health care has had its own prices skyrocket partly because it subsidizes medicaire (plus there's all those outrageous lawsuits that drive up costs) because hospitals have to get the money from somewhere. So if it drives up costs, is not sustainable how is it good care?

Further and more importantly, the whole argument of Obama makes no sense. He's arguing that we need to basically expand Medicaire and take in millions more people and that cutting waste and inefficiency will somehow cut costs. Why haven't we seen such cost cutting in Medicaire since we already have a program that is govt run, providing a health service. You'd think that were his argument true that Medicaire wouldn't be bleeding money like a sieve, but I would argue that he should show that such cuts are possible in our existing govt system before expanding said program to include even more people.

mccullough said...

Medicare is a great program that we can't afford.

Once it's reformed it will be the equivalent of the type of medical care prisoners receive.

Matt said...

jr565

Hello. Good argument you make. I appreciate that.
Medicare was developed in the 1965 when the idea of funding it 40 years from then was not really an issue. There were also fewer seniors. As the years have gone on many in the gov't have been reluctant to increase FICA and SECA taxes - although there were increases in the 1990's.
No question the cost is high. And an expansion of it [actually Medicaid] sounds unsustainable. Oversight of such a program is also tough.
But ultimately it comes down to a higher tax on some segment of the American taxpayers [higher income most likely].
I agree fixing Medicare before we leap further is a worthy argument. And at this point I don't have a counter argument to that. [Although my liberal friends do].

But when we talk about successful or not, good or not, I think there are two elements of Medicare that need to be understood [and I think you do understand]. One is how effective it is to Seniors on a day to day basis and the other is how it succeeds or fails as a gov't program with regards funding and efficiency. It is actually very efficient and people do not lose it like they can regular insurance because of pre-exising conditions or loss of work.

However I have not seen data that indicates the funding short fall is linked to care. Perhaps in some cases and some situations this is the case. But that is precicely why [at the very least] we need to fix it now.

Dusty Fog said...

You know if old Teddy wasn't already dead he would be bored to death by now.

jr565 said...

Matt,
Ok, but if a program is bleeding money as is, and driving up costs as is, how do you get savings from it by adding millions of people to its rolls? Wouldn't it be disingenuous and illogical to argue that you can somehow save money by cutting waste and inefficiency by expanding care to millions more people, when you can't fix those problems in the system you currently have, which is WHY you are bleeding money in the first place?
If Obama wants to cut down on costs through streamlining why wouldnt he be able to produce said results in the system we already have?

Bruce Hayden said...

Medicare was developed in the 1965 when the idea of funding it 40 years from then was not really an issue. There were also fewer seniors. As the years have gone on many in the gov't have been reluctant to increase FICA and SECA taxes - although there were increases in the 1990's.

Actually, taxes have gone up quite a bit, just not tax rates, at least not that much.

No question the cost is high. And an expansion of it [actually Medicaid] sounds unsustainable. Oversight of such a program is also tough.

Cost is high partially because there is almost no oversight. Much is made about Medicare's lower overhead costs (ignoring what is hidden elsewhere in the budget). But what is ignored then is that there is massive fraud as a result. Plus, the amount of fraud, added to the runaway spending, is part of why the overhead, as a percentage, appears low.

But ultimately it comes down to a higher tax on some segment of the American taxpayers [higher income most likely].

Don't tax me. Don't tax you. Just tax the guy behind the tree.

Unfortunately, there just isn't all that much money there to get, and Obama and his cronies in Congress go to the well whenever they need more spending money. Part of the problem is that the "rich" (i.e. those who have large W2 reported income, regardless of actual wealth) are the ones who, more than any other segment of our population, run the small businesses that hire people. Raising their taxes in the midst of a recession is counter-productive, at the least.

And this is one of Obama's biggest economic problems - he seems willing to hit the "rich" just to spread the wealth around, even at a cost of postponing our recovery.

Bruce Hayden said...

Further and more importantly, the whole argument of Obama makes no sense. He's arguing that we need to basically expand Medicare and take in millions more people and that cutting waste and inefficiency will somehow cut costs.

The reason that it does make sense is that what is really being proposed is to throw them in with everyone else, and then when the inevitable rationing occurs, its disproportionate effect on seniors can be better hidden.

Kansas City said...

I wish Ann would have told us her feelings, instead of teeing up two short term political issues. The answers are no and yes.

I find it difficult to clarify my thoughts on his death. I found Kennedy mostly an offesive and immoral guy who was bad for the country, but I also like to show decent respect.

I wish I could think of something nice to say, but can only think of the following. He apparently was very nice to Novak when he too was diagnosed with brain cancer. Also, some people I respect (McCain, Hatch) seem to genuinely express affection for him, so on some level he probably was okay.

Now what I can't get out of my mind: (1) were there any major issues over the past 40 years about which he was on the right side?; and (2) if there is a judging God, doesn't his conduct regarding the death of Kopechne likely doom him?

Bruce Hayden said...

Now what I can't get out of my mind: (1) were there any major issues over the past 40 years about which he was on the right side?

I suspect strongly that he was on the right side of integration. I was going to say that he probably missed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but it looks like he joined the Senate in 1962. If I remember right, that was his older brother's seat, held by a family friend until he became of age. I looked through his Wikipedia bio, and didn't see anything else that jumped out at me.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Matt,
How can a program that is losing money be "efficient"?

Matt said...

jr565

I'm inclined to agree with you. No doubt if they can't handle Medicare then handling something much bigger could be trouble. Although as I understand it the Federal gov't will only cover costs for the new health care for 3 years - then the states take it over.

Bruce Hayden
Yes, I see what you are saying. However the marginal tax rates are actually rather low right now. If they get taken back up to where they were in the early 80's that would pay for a lot. But, being no tax expert, I can only assume that. I don't think the Democrats would propose a plan that could not be paid for. Although the Republicans did that with the Perscription drug plan under Bush - so maybe so. However, Obama cites that often enough that at the very least he is thinking of where to get the money.

Stephen Snell said...

Garage,

There is a difference between saying "this dead guy was a jerk because he was a leftist of poor character" and saying "I hope this guy dies (died) a slow agonizing death because he is a conservative."

That's your difference between most of this thread and the classy Tony Snow threads, the obvious false flag Veritos notwithstanding.

Omega Liberal,

I grew up in Mass. -- what the hell is your point about the revolution? Of the original 13 states, 4 seceded, a 5th wanted to (MD.), and a 6th, well, who ever remembers what Delaware does.

I don't think much of Kennedy, but as I wrote earlier, a death from cancer is sad (but not as sad as drowning at 28 or 29 because of a simply awful display of character).

More importantly, how did that war on poverty work out for the average African-American family unit?

Medicare would be great except that it is unsustainable. Kind of a hard-to-ignore defect.


wv = hotiver

Stephen Snell said...

Did former Klan leader Robert Byrd support the '64 Act? Or did he switch sides after the fight had ended, decisively?

(non-sequitir, yes, but I couldn't waste the wv)

wv = epetr online giggolo service

mccullough said...

Snell:

Byrd did not. Actually more Republican Senators than Democrat Senators voted for the '64 Act and the '65 Voting Rights Act than Democrats. (Al Gore's Dad voted against the Voting Rights Act).

But a lot of those Southern Democrat senator seats are now Southern Republican senator seats, so make of it what you will. To Byrd's credit, he remained a Democrat.

Revenant said...

Yes, funding is an issue. But as a program for Seniors it is very good and has been for over 40 years now.

Well, sure. It gave them lavish benefits and made younger people -- who on average have less money than seniors -- pay for them. From a senior's perspective, what's not to like?

The relevant question is whether Medicare is good for the country. And that's a big "no".

MadisonMan said...

(1) were there any major issues over the past 40 years about which he was on the right side?

Someone posted a link earlier, somewhere, that detailed his leading the fight to deregulate both the trucking industry, and also the way airline tickets are sold.

I had forgotten he did that -- if I ever knew it -- but that sure was a win for just about everyone.

Pogo said...

I say let's win one for the Dripper.

Bruce Hayden said...

But a lot of those Southern Democrat senator seats are now Southern Republican senator seats, so make of it what you will.

Except, of course, none of them are still in the Senate, while Bob Byrd (D-KKK) still is.

Matt said...

Kansas City
Kennedy helped write and pass the 1990 Americans With Disabilities Act, the 1993 Family and Medical Leave Act, the Kennedy-Hatch law of 1997 [which put 250,000 people into community service], No Child Left Behind of 2001 [with Bush] and he drafted a supplemental military budget to improve armored vehicles for troops.

No small thing.

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