April 27, 2009

"GOP Know-Nothings Fought Pandemic Preparedness."

The Democrats begin the week with an absolutely perfect issue.

242 comments:

1 – 200 of 242   Newer›   Newest»
traditionalguy said...

This seriously makes me suspect that the Pandemic Story of a new possible flu, which is always out there somewhere to publicise, is just another "Health Care system is broke without government controls" charade.

Palladian said...

Yes! Let's politicize yet another potentially dire threat to our lives!

Deb said...

It confirms my suspicion that there is nothing that won't eventually be politicized even when it is detrimental to the country, the average citizen, the world. I am disgusted.

garage mahal said...

Who is politicizing it? I followed the link but I couldn't find "The Democrats".

rhhardin said...

``If Paris Hilton gets arrested today, swine flu will disappear.''

-- Imus's Bernard McGuirk, but before the promo for the WABC special on the swine flu threat, running at 9pm tonight.

hdhouse said...

Ahh the kneejerk neocons rise to the bait....

The politicization occured under Bush you morons...Obama now has the golden opportunity to fix yet another Bush political/social trainwreck.

ElcubanitoKC said...

hdhouse said...
Ahh the kneejerk neocons rise to the bait....

The politicization occured under Bush you morons...Obama now has the golden opportunity to fix yet another Bush political/social trainwreck.

9:03 AM


Prove it, Bruce.

Peter V. Bella said...

...$900 million for that purpose in this year's emergency stimulus bill, he was ridiculed by conservative operatives and congressional Republicans."

Maybe because like other issues, it has nothing to do with economic stimulus. He could have proposed the money in a separate bill and got it passed. DUH.

Maguro said...

The Nation needs to up its game...we already got these talking points from dtl yesterday.

Peter V. Bella said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Peter V. Bella said...

Nice way to start the morning. The typical, childish, insulting, leftist with nothing of substance to say.

AJ Lynch said...

DTL and Headhouse and any writer for The Nation... are they actually one and the same libtard cry-baby?

hdhouse said...

awww poor little minded GOP head nodders...caught red handed being stupid and short sighted and now it is everyone else's fault.

How blindly the sheep are lead off the cliff....

ya'betcha!

hdhouse said...

and if you dullards think this is just Rove "acting up"....
Administration News | President Bush's FY 2007 Budget Proposal Would ...
... that the fiscal year 2007 budget plan proposed by President Bush includes spending reductions for important ... "major cuts" in spending for CDC. ...www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?hint=3&DR_ID=36165 - Cached
Administration News | Bush Budget Proposal Would Reduce Funding for CDC ...
President Bush's fiscal year 2006 budget proposal would eliminate or reduce funding for ... A 2.4% cut to HHS's discretionary spending budget to $68 billion; ...www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?hint=3&DR_ID=28008 - 66k - Cached
Giuliani says Bush should cut spending | Reuters
... the Bush tax cuts, coupled with increased military spending for wars ... New flu has spread widely, cannot be contained-CDC. Most Popular Articles RSS Feed ...www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed6/idUKN158836020080115 - 61k - Cached
Bush Health Budget: FDA Gets More, CDC Gets Less
... of pages of documents containing its proposals for national spending for 2002. ... the same time, the budget cuts funds by 3% at the CDC, as well as money for ...webmd.com/.../features/bush-health-budget-fda-gets-more-cdc-gets-less - 128k - Cached
Bush Proposes Health Cuts in Budget
... cuts to the CDC, substance abuse programs, and health programs for children and families. ... makes spending decisions that President Bush can choose ...webmd.com/medicare/news/20080204/bush-proposes-health-cuts-in-budget - 100k - Cached
President Bush's FY 2007 Budget Proposal Would Reduce Funding For CDC ...
In his FY 2007 budget plan, Bush proposed that spending for CDC remain flat. ... use emergency flu pandemic spending to conceal "major cuts" in spending for CDC. ...

I think I see a pattern.

ElcubanitoKC said...

Explain the "politization", idiot.

Palladian said...

hdhouse beshit his Depends again. Nurse! Nurse!

Paul Zrimsek said...

These are some of the same guys who shrug off terrorism as "not an existential threat", right?

David said...

I see a pattern too.

HDHouse got the left wing talking points email early today.

The talking points are being widely distributed if HD already has them.

TosaGuy said...

Consider that NIH now has a monster pile of money and can't possibly spend it all perhaps some it should be shifted to the CDC.

But if that procedure was done, then the libs would not have their talking points and would let a "crisis" go to waste.

rhhardin said...

There are no funds allocated for studying receptiveness to news anxiety.

Palladian said...

Speaking of preparedness, you'd think if this was so important, Obama and the Democrat legislature would actually nominate and/or confirm people to head the CDC, NIH, Health Department and the FDA. All of these positions, three months into the Obama administration, remain vacant. Instead Obama has Napolitano and the press secretary telling us that everything's under control, while he's out playing a round of golf. That's leadership!

hdhouse said...

Palladian said...
"... telling us that everything's under control, while he's out playing a round of golf. That's leadership!"

Ohh Palladian you silly goose..this has nothing to do with Bush and katrina when he had Brownie and everything was under control and and and..

Fight back oh Rightwing Zealots ...Fight Fight Fight...rah rah rah...

You fools are caught yet again! Tell me please...is Rush still your chairman?

AJ Lynch said...

Golfing!! [since when do community organizers golf?]

halojones-fan said...

Re: article. Oh, so now it's the Republicans' fault that people get sick.The Demos aren't "right" about this issue; they're just coincidental. Even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then.

downtownlad said...

Actually Palladian, the secretary of Health and Human Services is pending nomination in the Senate. It's going nowhere, because the Republicans are currently fillibustering the appointment of Kathleen Sebelius.

And none of the positions you've named can be filled until the direction of HHS is in place.

So the Republicans are the reason that position is not filled.

J said...

"But it has already believed to have killed more than 100 people in a neighboring country and sickened dozens of Americans"

Per the CDC, on an average, non pandemic DAY, about 100 Americans die from "flu-related causes" (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/index.htm).

Never let an opportunity to teach your children about framing effect go to waste.

downtownlad said...

And yes - I did break this story yesterday. Because I don't need talking points (unlike wingnut Republicans - who can't have a discussion without Fox news telling them what to think).

The Republicans pulled this money, boasted about it, and now they don't want to take responsibility for their actions.

Too late - Olympia Snowe's comments are crystal clear.

Palladian said...

Excuses, excuses. Hand me that seven iron, Michelle!

rcocean said...

We don't need the government involved in public health issues.

Get the Government off our backs!

Let the free market decide who gets the flu and who can buy any vaccine.

Palladian said...

Did you know that Barack Obama doesn't support gay marriage? You heard it here first!

downtownlad said...

I hope that Congress passes an emergency resolution that gives help to the States on this manner.

Then I want to see Republican governors like Palin say that they don't want the money.

I want to see governor Rick Perry in Texas threaten secession if he is forced to take this money.

paul a'barge said...

Definition of preparedness: hereLooking good for Obama? Not so much, is it?

rhhardin said...

What's being done about asteroids?

ElcubanitoKC said...

DTL, i hope they appropriated some money for your rabies shot.

traditionalguy said...

We won't know what's going on until a CDC team has worked on this 60 days. In the meantime, I am skeptical that this is real. When the world's self appointed Crisis Police finally spots its Asteroid of Death approaching the Earth to wipe out all life in 36 months, then these minor league scares will pass away and we can all beg the necessary United Nations Government to mobilize and save us at any price. Think of these mere scares as exercises for new Community Organizers in training.

Palladian said...

downtownlad is about to kill this thread with one of his patented cytokine storms of vituperative, irrelevant and embarrassing comments. Get out your masks and TamiFlu everyone, cause he sprays a lot of spittle which is an excellent way of spreading contagion!

rhhardin said...

We're overdue for an asteroid John and Ken .

downtownlad said...

Actually, quoting from your article, Obama looks fine. The Republicans look petty.

Gibbs said the White House was “hopeful” for a vote soon for Sebelius, but Republicans have held up her nomination over concerns she failed to disclose the full amount of contributions by a doctor who performed late-term abortions.

downtownlad said...

As usual, the self-loathing Palladian starts on his vindictive ad-hominem attacks.

Yawn. He needs to get a life.

I obviously know what I'm talking about, since I was the first person in the entire world to bring up this entire subject matter, when I commented about in Althouse's post yesterday.

Palladian said...

"Actually, quoting from your article, Obama looks fine."

Does he look fiiinnne? Does he give you a little bit of a stiffy, dtl? I know he's a little old for your tastes, but come on, admit it!

Joan said...

But it has already believed to have killed more than 100 people in a neighboring country and sickened dozens of Americans -- causing the closing of schools and other public facilities in U.S. cities.

Notice that not one school or facility that has been closed due to a flu outbreak was actually named -- because there have been none in the U.S.

This is irresponsible reporting.

If pandemic preparedness was so important, why was it rolled into the stimulus bill? Why couldn't it be proposed and defended on its own? Instapundit has been harping on this subject for years now.

Many people recognize that increasing stockpiles of Tamiflu and flu vaccines is a good idea. But just because it's a good idea doesn't meant funding it through the stimulus bill was the way to go. This story highlights what the stimulus bill really was: fulfillment of everything on the left's wish list, with few if any strings attached.

hdhouse said...

DTL...it appears that no matter which way the wind blows today, the republicans here are twisting in it.....(handing them yet another shovel to keep digging with!)

downtownlad said...

He's handling the situation very competently. It's unfortunate that the money for this wasn't in the stimulus bill. Fighting pandemic flus are items that SHOULD be paid for by the federal government. Porkulus items like Social Security and Medicaid for anti-gay bigoted old people are items that should be eliminated.

And I have never fawned over Obama. And you won't be able to find one post where that is the case.

Obama is a technocrat and he actually focuses on governing, not politics. So I'm not surprised that he's handling the situation well.

Palladian said...

"Notice that not one school or facility that has been closed due to a flu outbreak was actually named -- because there have been none in the U.S."

That's not true, Joan. St. Francis Preparatory School in Queens was closed. This is the school that has confirmed cases of swine flu.

Palladian said...

"Obama is a technocrat and he actually focuses on governing, not politics."

Lol.

Fore!

jayne_cobb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MadisonMan said...

We should all go read The Plague by Camus now. How do the politicians in that book react? I don't recall (mostly because I could never get through the book).

If there is a pandemic, this is a PR disaster for Republicans -- in Maine, in particular. The commercial writes itself, coffins with flu victims being buried and the good Senator's words written or spoken over the screen. Who'd vote for her?

Of course, I say the same about just about any incumbent.

babsheep300 said...

If this is such a big event, why in the world is this administration the only government not taking preemptive steps in screening border and flight entries? Does the administration want a huge pandemic to make us all sick? Looks like they are failing to take action. I wonder why?

downtownlad said...

hdhouse - The Republicans are twisting in it, because they have only focused on politics. They don't give a shit about governing, and have not done so in a very long time.

It's all about the politics of personal destruction. Of course, some Democrats do the same thing, but not nearly to the same extent. Democrats are not afraid to incorporate Republican ideas if they are good ones.

But Republicans will oppose something, solely because a Democrat supports it. Even if the idea is supported by most non-ideological experts. Examples include funding for Pandemic flus, or even the stimulus money for that matter, or the use of torture. These really aren't controversial, but Republicans have to make everything an ideological fight, and they end looking - well they look stupid.

Sofa King said...

Just out of curiosity - if we don't have a pandemic and few or no people in the U.S. die from this, does that mean that the additional funding was in fact not needed? Or does this argument only cut one way?

downtownlad said...

I agree that Olympia Snowe comes out looking the worst. Other Republicans can pretend that they supported the flu funding, but not the rest of the stimulus package. They'd be lying of course, since they actively used Snowe to get this specific funding removed. But that argument might work with their constituents.

downtownlad said...

Well Sofa, you can say that not insuring your home was a smart idea if it doesn't end up burning down.

Or not having health insurance was smart if you don't end up getting sick.

Personally, I don't want the government gambling with my life, and I'd rather that they be prudent in insuring the country against a pandemic flu.

I also think they should invest in programs to identify meteors that will hit earth, and develop devices that could divert those meteors, since we know that earth gets hit by giant meteors every few hundred years.

jayne_cobb said...

Sorry, someone already posted the link on the lack of appointments by the president.

ElcubanitoKC said...

dtl, Snowe is not Collins. Can you read?

babsheep300 said...

Yes, and if I have a small fire in the kitchen and can put it out quickly, I wouldn't just stand there doing nothing but complaining to my spouse he didn't insure the house, "See, I told you so." There are plenty of actions the administration can be taking to protect us, yet they do nothing. Why?

MadisonMan said...

Heh -- I couldn't remember which Senator did this. One is so very much like the other, except in a photograph. So I didn't name her.

The asteroids (known) that are a danger to the Earth are well known -- I believe the closest call (the asteroid moves closer to the Earth than the Moon!) is in 2020 or so? Sometime in the 20-teens? This is all a vague memory. But I also recall there is $$ in the budget for contingency planning.

Sofa King said...

Personally, I don't want the government gambling with my life, and I'd rather that they be prudent in insuring the country against a pandemic flu.

That's perfectly reasonable. But it seems to be taken on assumption that the spending in the stimulus package is the difference between one outcome and the other. Your argument doesn't say anything about this spending in particular. It's a generic argument, that could in fact be applied to every proposed spending increase, that could be employed to justify and infinite amount of spending, at least so long as the marginal utility of every additional dollar was(even theoretically) greater than zero. But that's not economically rational, it's a recipe for fiscal catastrophe. If you set the price of anything at 0, what happens to the demand?

Sofa King said...

In short, do you think there would ever be a point at which the funding was "enough?" And if so, how would we know?

jayne_cobb said...

In regards to this post I suppose the simple retort would be (in continuing the insurance theme): You don't put fire insurance on the grocery list.


But as for the actual disease I guess the question is just how serious will this prove to be.

Given the lack of deaths anywhere outside of Mexico it's looking to be SARS all over again.

I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not.

Henry said...

I blame Columbus.

downtownlad said...

Snowe was one of the 3 who helped get this money stripped from the bill. But I am going based on memory, not on the article, so if it was Collins who was personally responsible, then I correct myself.

Perhaps you'll correct yourself for calling me "full of shit" when I brought up this point yesterday. Unless you're going to call Ann "full of shit too".

Alex said...

Game, set and match. Democrats have just clinched power for 50 years.

downtownlad said...

The government should have enough stock of Tiraflu (or whatever it is called) on stock to treat the entire country. Or enough to stop a pandemic. I'm certain that statiticians and health experts know what that exact number is. From what I've read, it doesn't cost that much money. And yes, it would be stimulative, so it does belong in a stimulus bill. Certainly more stimulative than reducing the Alternative Minimum Tax.

Alex said...

downtownlad said:

"But Republicans will oppose something, solely because a Democrat supports it."

But of course Democrats NEVER do that!

babsheep300 said...

So the country has what it needs to respond to this pandemic. It already has it all in stock. Then why is this administration not taking actions to protect us?

downtownlad said...

And Yglesias has a quote from Chuck Schumer opposing this funding as "pork" as well.

That's fine - criticize him too.

When they removed this money in February, I remember thinking to myself "that's dumb". I also thought it was dumb when they removed money for high-speed rail.

Joan said...

Game, set and match. Democrats have just clinched power for 50 years.
Right, because everyone knows that they made such a big deal about pandemic preparedness being important in the stimulus package! Give me a break. That package was so larded up that I doubt we'll ever know the full extent of what we're spending, and what we're spending it on -- and you expect the Democrats to coast to power over an issue that most people still don't even know exists? How close do the asteroids come to your planet?

Alex said...

dtl - there is no spending that you don't approve of - except military spending.

Alex said...

Joan - it's the anti-science attitude. It's the creationists. It's the fundies. It's the torturists. It's the Christianists. It's the folks that want to screw everyone else in favor of the top 2%. The American people have wizened up to the GOP scams.

ElcubanitoKC said...

dtl, you are still full of shit.

AJ Lynch said...

Henry said "I blame Columbus".

I would LOL but it ain't PC.

downtownlad said...

I don't know what you're talking about Alex.

I oppose every single dime of education spending, including student loans. I oppose Social Security. I oppose Medicare. I oppose every dime we give to farmers in subsidies. I opposed food stamps. I oppose welfare. And yes - about 50% of our defense spending is pork.

Please get real.

Joe said...

Wow, a few dozen people get sick and the hysterical chicken littles of the world are running around screaming "pandemic."

Here's the startling thing: if there was an actual pandemic, the CDC couldn't do shit about it, no matter what their funding.

Lem said...

The republicans maybe too weak to catch swine fever ;)

downtownlad said...

That's not true Joe. Hong Kong and China stopped SARS, which was EXTREMELY contagious.

jayne_cobb said...

DTL,

Actually creating vaccines and other such things is generally break even at best, and unless they were already operating near or at capacity I highly doubt they would really need need to hire any new employees.


Alex,

Unless this turns into an actual pandemic in the US (i.e. people dying left and right) this will be forgotten as quickly as SARS and monkeypox. So far I think only one person in the US who actually was positive for it has been hospitalized but was described as recovering (although this may have since changed).

What I think this will really just end up highlighting is the difference in both health care and habits between the US and Mexico.

Sofa King said...

The government should have enough stock of Tiraflu (or whatever it is called) on stock to treat the entire country. Or enough to stop a pandemic. I'm certain that statiticians and health experts know what that exact number is.

Okay, granted. Now, if in fact our current stocks of Tamiflu are sufficient to prevent a pandemic of swine flu, doesn't this mean that by your own standards, the extra funding was not needed? Can we hold you to this?

jayne_cobb said...

Oh, and China attempted to cover up SARS before they got caught.

Christy said...

I repeat the question: Why haven't Obama and the Democrat legislature nominated and/or confirmed people to head the CDC, NIH, Health Department and the FDA if they are so invested in health instead of politics?

AJ Lynch said...

God we all have become such pussies!

elHombre said...

downtownlad wrote (10:13): "But Republicans will oppose something, solely because a Democrat supports it. ... Examples include funding for Pandemic flus, or even the stimulus money for that matter, or the use of torture."

How can anyone actually contend that the only reasons for opposing Democrat positions on these issues are ideological?

Projection? Ignorance? Intolerance? All of the above?

This "pandemic" is just another potential crisis too good for the Dems to waste.

Joe said...

DTL, SARS was NOT a pandemic. I picked my word deliberately. Moreover the CDC isn't the only repository of medical knowledge in this country--a very good argument can be made that centralizing control in the CDC would be a fatal mistake if a real pandemic actually did occur.

Tamiflu was brought up. While there are serious doubts about it's overall effectiveness, the CDC had nothing to do with this drug--it's the product of one of those "evil" pharmaceutical companies.

Palladian said...

"The government should have enough stock of Tiraflu (or whatever it is called) on stock to treat the entire country. Or enough to stop a pandemic. I'm certain that statiticians and health experts know what that exact number is. From what I've read, it doesn't cost that much money."

You can't even bother to look up the name of the drug? It's called TamiFlu, and you're placing ridiculous expectations on its effectiveness. So far, it seems that the current swine flu is somewhat responsive to TamiFlu, but that could quickly change, especially if large numbers of people take the drug. This could lead to strains of virus resistant to TamiFlu's mechanism of action and ultimately create a much more serious pandemic, in the same way that over-prescription and improper patient usage of antibiotics have contributed to the development of resistant strains of common bacterial pathogens. TamiFlu is also only effective if taken within about 48 hours of infection.

In short, just like the situation with hurricane Katrina, there's a very limited number of ways to prepare for natural disasters. There is no magic drug that can
"stop" the spread of a disease and pouring money, in the guise of "economic stimulus" no less, does not necessary correlate to a happy outcome.

But the time for bitching is over. The Democrats can do ANYTHING THEY WANT. So put up or shut up.

Dark Eden said...

Is there anything the Democrats won't politicize and blame the Republicans on?

Pogo said...

Amazing how little you get when you spend $1 Billion an hour.

The only thing the US gummint could do in the event of an actual pandemic is forbid travel, by plane or even by car, especially into or out of affected cities, with no inflow from outside the country, and even limit travel within a city, until the threat diminished. There simply ain't enough Tamiflu to go around.

All that can be done without any new funds.
If it were a real pandemic, that is what would happen.

Since it's not occurring, draw your own conclusions.

AJ Lynch said...

Palladian said:

"But the time for bitching is over. The Democrats can do ANYTHING THEY WANT. So put up or shut up."

Let's see if DTL can disagree with that.

Palladian said...

"Is there anything the Democrats won't politicize and blame the Republicans on?"

I'd amend that to: is there anything the politicians won't politicize and blame on the other politicians?

Palladian said...

And it's important to note again and again that the current flu is not (as of yet) a pandemic. Like porn, you'll know a pandemic when you see it.

Maguro said...

God we all have become such pussies!

Speak for yourself, Lynch!

I'm going right down to my local Mexican restaurant for a nice plate of enchiladas. What can I say...I like to live on the edge.

Nichevo said...

Blogger downtownlad said...

He's handling the situation very competently. It's unfortunate that the money for this wasn't in the stimulus bill. Fighting pandemic flus are items that SHOULD be paid for by the federal government. Porkulus items like Social Security and Medicaid for anti-gay bigoted old people are items that should be eliminated.


Oh ha ha ha, hahahaha, hahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha, LOL, ROFLMAO, BAGLOL, LTIWMP, etc.

Sheeit...for a minute I thought you were serious...or at least meaning to be taken seriously.

Good one!

Palladian said...

"Let's see if DTL can disagree with that."

Downtownlad could disagree with his own name or the color of the sky on a cloudless day, if it antagonizes people in the process. It doesn't really have anything to do with influenza, gay marriage, Democrats or any other purported topic of contention. The only thing it has to do with is downtownlad. There's a word for this kind of person.... sociopath.

Hoosier Daddy said...

According to CNN Obama is saying we've got nothing to worry about and the situation is under control.

Pogo said...

And Swine flu just proves that it's the 1970s all over again. Same dumb 'epidemic', same lame response.

What we need now is a good dance movie, with some BeeGees disco rehash, now done by Death Cab For Cutie or something.

Don't touch the hair!!!

Palladian said...

"According to CNN Obama is saying we've got nothing to worry about and the situation is under control."

So it was golf yesterday. Is it tennis today? Maybe basketball?

rocketeer67 said...

And Swine flu just proves that it's the 1970s all over again.

What, the reelection of Carter wasn't enough to tip you off?

Cedarford said...

jayne_cobb - What I think this will really just end up highlighting is the difference in both health care and habits between the US and Mexico.There is a fairly good capacity in Mexico for treating contagious disease. Better than most countries. The fatalities from flu are a function of the virulence of the strain and the susceptibility of patients. Several thousand Americans die each flu outbreak. There is just so much medicine can do for certain patients, and just so much medicine can do with certain viral diseases. If the 1918 flu hit again, it would be almost as deadly, as sheer numbers overwhelmed the ability to give intensive care in hospitals to the most affected.

Nor is flu a discriminator over "habits". While it is true that close proximity of people and certain animals is the incubator of a new flu strain - no society can live without its farmers and peasants, so little can be done about that. China has tried, but they say their measures only will slightly reduce rural China and the markets as a source of new disease.
But once a flu bug is on the march, and long as you share the same "habits" as Mexicans - living amongst many people and many arriving from and going to remote locations as well that pesky need to breath air in and out, you are at the same rough risk.

And the people blaming the flu spread on illegal aliens crossing the Border are mildly deranged, ignorant on epidemiology.

Hoosier Daddy said...

(So it was golf yesterday. Is it tennis today? Maybe basketball?)

I think he went bowling.

rhhardin said...

Bloomberg urges you to cover your mouth when you cough.

It shows what he knows.

Cough into the arm of your sleeve, lest your hands spread the disease.

Mothers need to be told that.

It matters in cold season with supermarket cashiers.

chefmojo said...

So let me get this straight. Dems are going to blame Republicans for removing something from a bill that they then overwhelmingly voted for?

Gotcha.

This is like watching the aftermath of a knife fight where the two fighters, having cut each other to ribbons to the point that they're bleeding to death, lay in their blood flinging accusations as to who his responsible for their respective predicaments.

Having said that, it's nice to see that the Dems have their priorities in order! Let's take advantage of a potentially deadly crisis to stick the knife in again!

Asses.

jayne_cobb said...

Cedarford,

Regarding habits I was mainly referring to the obsession with cleanliness a great many Americans have (e.g. the habit of many people to carry around antibacterial hand wash in a purse or on a keychain).

Perhaps it's just anecdotal observations that don't apply elsewhere but it has seemed to me that a good portion of the US has become incredibly afraid of even risking disease as a result of sensationalist journalism.


As for illegal immigration, I had yet to actually hear that one.

Jim Howard said...

Yes, of course if we had tossed another $900 million into the TARP pit then nobody in the US would have died from swine flu.

Oh , wait, even without the $900 million nobody has died from swine flu in the US!

If a flu that kills nobody is a 'pandemic', what the heck is an old fashioned 'epidemic'?

There's nothing wrong with including in the budget preparations for epidemics. But there was no reason to burn up another $900 million in a hasty and unplanned money grab.

We ought to have a system of public hearings and investigations before we start just throwing billion dollars around just because some 'hero' thinks its a good idea.

hdhouse said...

ahhh another GOP laugh riot!!!

Read the friggin' article pls. Google Bush cuts CDC and you get 8 years of budget cuts. Add 2+2.

I think I'll visit this blog again in about 2 hours. In that time the GOP idiocy will have found 90 reasons why this isn't their fault (like nothing ever is). Perhaps they will actually read up on this particular variant of swine flu to see why it isn't like the others. God forbid they don't stumble upon the statement put out by the CDC and World Health that this is already PAST the containment stage.

Synova said...

Wasn't Snowe actually one of the Republicans who voted for the stimulous?

I recall her name, and not in a good way.

I suppose if she was hoping that cooperation with the Democrats was going to get her any creds with anyone, she's going to find out different.

MadisonMan said...

chefmojo, are you saying the opposition was -- what -- just symbolic? A bone to throw to their constituents?

They were for it after they were against it?

The TV commercial still writes itself.

Hoosier Daddy said...

(God forbid they don't stumble upon the statement put out by the CDC and World Health that this is already PAST the containment stage.)

Obama has already assured us that there is nothing to worry about. You really need to get on board with the program and quit it with the fearmongering.

Synova said...

You know what's sort of (not) funny?

My husband is working on simulating infectious outbreak in major cities, including the spread of infection, distribution of drugs, etc., distribution points and weaknesses with death counts by demographic.

I joked with him about doing the sim with the infection turning people to zombies and including gun ownership in the mix.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"At this point, I would not put out a travel restriction or recommendation against coming to the United States," said Richard Besser, acting head of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. )


Linky here

hdhouse said...

Hoosier Daddy said...
(God forbid they don't stumble upon the statement put out by the CDC and World Health that this is already PAST the containment stage.) Obama has already assured us that there is nothing to worry about. You really need to get on board with the program and quit it with the fearmongering."

Sometimes Hoosier the depth of what you don't know anything about is staggering. You have no idea what containment means in this mix do you? Or what it means to be "past containment". So it is fearmongering then to write something that plays to your ignorance.

I'll come back in a couple hours and see what other gunk washes ashore here.

Synova said...

In any case...

There *is* a plan, because in order to do the sim they have to have the actual plan... to see how it works.

rocketeer67 said...

Wait - all weekend long I've been hearing, "Sure, we'll concede that waterboarding gleaned information that helped avert more terrorist attacks. But there's no reason to think we couldn't have gotten that information with less coercive means."

For the sake of consistency, at least, will you lefties concede that theres's no logical reason to think we'd be any better prepared for a pandemic if we'd been throwing money at the CDC for the last 8 years?

Donald's Designated Driver said...

Hold on there a minute. So the Dems control: (1) the presidency, (2) the House of Representatives, and (3) the Senate.

But those big evils bullies (who are in the extreme minority) were able stop pademnic preparedness?

If the dems wanted it that bad, and knew how important it was, I think they had the votes to fight for it.

Hoosier Daddy said...

(Sometimes Hoosier the depth of what you don't know anything about is staggering. You have no idea what containment means in this mix do you? )

Sorry house, I'm just repeating what Obama has said as well as the head of the CDC who evidently thinks that travel restrictions are unwarranted.

If its 'past containment' as you say, it obviously isn't approaching the level of crisis you're making it out to be, based upon the responses of your President and the CDC of course.

Unless they're just lying out of their ass.

jayne_cobb said...

Actually the LA Times just pointed out that during the swine flu panic of 1976 only 1 American died from the flu whereas 25 died from the vaccine.

Quasimodo said...

Potentially, another "Opportunity" to suck out our freedoms ...

but this will be another news media - government complex Chicken Little story ... like the previous swine flu scare, or alar, or the cranberry scare, or red dye #2, or silicone implants, or saccharine, or ...Oh, forget it, the list is approaching infinity.

36,000 Americans die every year from flu related causes. we won't be able to see this one above the statistical noise - after the panic is over that is.

Methadras said...

GOP/Bush White House not giving 900 million for Pandemic Preparedness is a political canard. This story is a shell game that given the current outbreak of swine flu can be used as a political wedge to further this current White House's aims for blaming the ills of the world on the previous administration, but lo and behold, Mr. Barely and his band of merry men will swoop right in and fix it all; with prosecutions and released memos.

Government already has an obligation to promote the health of it's people. Health issues like this are exclusive of a 900 million dollar injection into a pet project fund called pandemic preparedness. If one wasn't in place before the 900 million dollar request then that is the real story, not this pile of horseshit that is now being placed at the doorstep of Bush Administration is meant to distract away from the fact that Mr. Barely's administration couldn't and didn't predict a Swine Flu outbreak. Where was CDC on this one? Where was Mr. Barely's proactive stance on Pandemic Preparedness? The whole thing is a Red Herring and intellectually stupid people like hdhouse and DTL run around waving their arms screaming into the night about how terrible it is that nearly a billion dollars didn't get spent on Pandemic Preparedness and they are so outraged and so shocked and so emotively in despair over the whole thing. It's Kabuki, all of it.

Clean your hands, don't eat pork for a while, wear a mask if you are so inclined and go about your business. If you feel funny, hit the emergency room and get checked. If the illegal aliens can do it, so can you.

Donal said...

From the 2007 Budget for the CDC " In FY 2006, CDC will invest $200 million in emergency funding to ...the HHS Pandemic Influenza Plan. The FY 2007 budget requests $188 million in CDC to enhance our pandemic preparedness. ....The reduction in overall pandemic funding is due to one-time resources provided in FY 2006 for CDC laboratories and the advanced development of rapid testing."

Combined with the 300 million the FDA spent in 2007 on pandemic preparations. That's over 700 million dollars spent in 2006-2007. So what exactly was the CDC supposed to do with another 900 million they never requested?

MadisonMan said...

Actually the LA Times just pointed out that during the swine flu panic of 1976 only 1 American died from the flu whereas 25 died from the vaccine.

My rather vague memory (I was 16 at the time) was that the link between Guillain-Barre syndrome and the vaccine was never shown to rise above statistical noise. 40M people received the vaccine (I don't recall if I did), and 500 then developed G-B (I did not), and of those 25 died (Not me!). Something like that, according to a cursory web search. Typically 1 or 2 out of 100000 develop G-B syndrome, that seems order or magnitude similar to the numbers that developed it post-vaccination in 1976.

Big Mike said...

I just got back off of Google and there's no such announcement that swine flu is "past the containment stage." The Secretary General of the UN seems to have gone a bit overboard, but as of a half hour ago WHO hasn't even raised the warning from the current Level 3 that it had established for avian flu and the acting head of the CDC has been at pains to get people to calm down.

So far this looks to me like an ordinary -- albeit late in the season -- flu outbreak. Although the swine flu is spreading pretty rapidly, it doesn't look like a pandemic just yet. It's pretty much confined to (1) Mexico; (2) places where Mexicans, legal or undocumented, get to; (3) people who have recently been to Mexico; or (4) people who interact closely with people in category 3 (e.g., teachers and classmates of kids who went to Mexico on spring break). Worth keeping an eye on, but lets try to keep down the foolishness, shall we?

Mind you, I'm all for CDC getting all the money they need.

I might also add that my take right now is that B. H. Obama is letting his experts apply their expertise. If this holds, then coupled with the rescue of Captain Phillips I'm seeing a good sign.

Palladian said...

"I just got back off of Google and there's no such announcement that swine flu is "past the containment stage." The Secretary General of the UN seems to have gone a bit overboard, but as of a half hour ago WHO hasn't even raised the warning from the current Level 3 that it had established for avian flu and the acting head of the CDC has been at pains to get people to calm down."

Thanks for pointing this out. The WHO doesn't seem particularly concerned at this point. But as with climate change, the douchebag Democrats (a separate category from the non-douchebag Democrats, by the way) are determined to take advantage of a real and complicated scientific question for political purposes. The Democrat party cares about science as much as it cares about black Americans, gay Americans and the rest of their political pawns: as a means of increasing their power. And they prey on the public's fear and ignorance of science to achieve their goals. I mean "past the containment stage"? I know hdhouse is working with a spongiform brain, but come on!

Chip Ahoy said...

Ha ha ha ha. The village idiot calls everybody a moron. Then repeats something idiotic even for morons ha ha ha ha ha ha. That's so cute.

jayne_cobb said...

So at what point does the "2009 swine flu panic" become the new SARS (or pick another panic)?



Personally if I don't see any major negative developments in the next week I'm just going to ignore this as a waste of time and ink.

Peter V. Bella said...

Is there a way we can quarantine the rabid, conspiracy theorists like DTL, house, Jeremy, and others. This should be done in the national interest, as a pandemic of untold proportions could break out. Hey, maybe put a quarantine center in the Hamptons.

Since they have no public housing, homeless shelters, welfare offices, or other government accutrements, it would be in the interest of the common good.

AlphaLiberal said...

People, people. The politicizing came with the opposition to the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act.

The politicizing was when the pandemic flu funding was REMOVED from that bill.

And, now we need that funding. It's the right thing to do to hold up to the light of day the actions of those who made this country less prepared for a flu epidemic.

Because they'll do it over and over again. They need to face the consequences of their actions, not have it swept under the rug.

garage mahal said...

It's just another way the DemocRAT Party wants to control us.

AlphaLiberal said...

And the bigger story is that GOP politics fail the American people AGAIN AND AGAIN.

We are not as prepared as we should be after the years of "government can do no right so let's not even try" thinking.

Again, we have an emergency. Again, we are glad we have a government.

Again, the government haters

hdhouse said...

Methadras said...
"...don't eat pork for a while..."

Earth to idiot: You don't catch swine flu from eating pork. OMG!

Obama must occasional view the populace, catch sight (or in this case "wind") of the ilk of Methadras and scream "oh the humanity".

AlphaLiberal said...

Ann should know John Nichols doesn't speak for the Democratic Party. He lives here in Madison and is a writer who often, also, criticizes the Dems.

----------
George Mahal trots out a tired meme:
It's just another way the DemocRAT Party wants to control us..

Ha ha. You mean like by telling us who we can marry, who and when we should have sex, trying to stop birth control, trying to dictate our personal lives? By censoring the scientists?

Oh, wait. That's the Republicans!

HA HA! Hypocrites!

AlphaLiberal said...

DDD:
But those big evils bullies (who are in the extreme minority) were able stop pademnic preparedness? ..

Not paying close attention, are you?
1) Republicans have shattered all records for filibusters since being returned to the minority. So, 60 votes are needed to overcome Republican Filibusters, not a simple majority.

2) A group of Republicans and right wing Democrats withheld their votes until funding was cut from the bill.

3) They succeeded in cutting funding from the stimulus bill, including pandemic flu preparedness funding.

They got what they wanted and the country is less prepared as a result. That's a fact.

And, if this thing does become epidemic or pandemic, it's another punch to the nuts for the economy.

Way to go, government haters!

Hoosier Daddy said...

(George Mahal trots out a tired meme:
It's just another way the DemocRAT Party wants to control us..
)

See garage, you can't even make a joke and your own kind turn on you.

daredevil-66 said...

Pathetic partisan, gamesmanship on the dems part. But what else is new? That's all they got. Knee jerk finger pointing to deflect their increasingly erractic rule. I suppose that will also be the republican's fault when people die of reactions to the tamiflu shots. Any stick to beat the republicans will do I guess.

Synova said...

Truly amazing, AL. You can trash the GOP one hand and assert the primacy of government on the other and not see the logical disconnect between the two.

Is government the answer or is it not?

Does it save us from emergencies, care for us, and change our nappies?

Or is it a pernicious beast that only requires the wrong party in power to turn on us and destroy?

If that's the case, then you'd better figure out how not to let that happen should public opinion or majority sentiment change. As it will do. Seeing as we have a democracy subject to the will of the people.

Peter V. Bella said...

"Earth to idiot: You don't catch swine flu from eating pork. OMG!"

Then why is it called swine flu? Does it come from birds, cows, sheep, politicians? Or is it a much catchier title than house flu, alphaliberal flu, Jeremy flu, DTL flu. Maybe PMS, golf, elitism, liberalism, and waterboarding were already taken.

Hoosier Daddy said...

(AL. You can trash the GOP one hand and assert the primacy of government on the other and not see the logical disconnect between the two.)

I'm still laughing at his description of right wing Democrats.)

AlphaLiberal said...

Rocketeer says some odd things:
For the sake of consistency, at least, will you lefties concede that theres's no logical reason to think we'd be any better prepared for a pandemic if we'd been throwing money at the CDC for the last 8 years?Why the hell would we say that? You don't even bother making an argument, just restate rhetoric.

And, ain't it funny how righties think "throwing money at it" works for the military but nothing else?

p.s. I don't think waterboarding "works". Non-sadistic methods have been proven effective over the decades.

AlphaLiberal said...

Synova shows some deep confusion:

You can trash the GOP one hand and assert the primacy of government on the other and not see the logical disconnect between the two..

(I asserted "the primacy of government???" Really?)

Here, I'll try to make it simpler for you:

a) The GOP is the anti-government party. They are deeply invested in proving to us government can't work and they made their best case over the past 8 years (see Katrina, Iraq, volcano monitoring, etc).

b) Government CAN work to serve people and has many times in my lifetime.

c) But we should not expect government to work if we keep people intent on proving "a" around.

Nichols' column provides just one more example of GOP ideology leaving the American people more vulnerable.

Shanna said...

The only thing the US gummint could do in the event of an actual pandemic is forbid travel, by plane or even by car, especially into or out of affected cities, with no inflow from outside the country, and even limit travel within a city, until the threat diminished. .

I read The Great Influenza a few years ago, and it talked about how a few small towns basically posted sentries outside of the town and wouldn’t let anyone in or out. It worked.

I think it’s pathetic that people are getting political about this, but I’m not surprised. If a hurricane can be blamed on a politician, why not infectious disease!

Money to Pandemic prep might be great, but that doesn’t mean it belongs in a stimulus package. To me, this bit proves how very far the “stimulus” bill strayed from it’s stated path. Which, of course, I already knew.

Paul Zrimsek said...

pademnicThe correct spelling is "dempanic".

AlphaLiberal said...

Here's a challenge to the conservatives and Ayn Rand acolytes:

Explain to us how the free market will protect us from swine flu epidemic. How does your "no/very limited government" ideology serve the people in this case?

Synova said...

"3) They succeeded in cutting funding from the stimulus bill, including pandemic flu preparedness funding.

They got what they wanted and the country is less prepared as a result. That's a fact.
"

Oh, bull.

How much preparation happens in three months? Would the money have been received yet? Would it have been applied to anything yet? No, it wouldn't. We'd be no more "prepared" if the funding was granted three months ago than if Congress pushed it through tomorrow.

I mentioned a few comments ago that my husband is working on an aspect of this exact thing. The proposal was put through last September or October,(under Bush) the demo, the parameters... that all took a couple months. The funding? I'm not sure when they got the funding approved. The delivery date? Hey, I can ask when they're supposed to deliver if you're interested. I would imagine the contract goes until next fall, at which time everyone is hoping for a second contract.

So figure his company delivers. Then what? At that point the government uses the *tool* that it contracted, to evaluate the plans and systems they have for dealing with infectious pandemics... I don't imagine that's the chore of an afternoon either.

In other words... funding three months ago has ZERO influence on the readiness we experience today.

It might influence preparedness two years from now *if* the money was spent on effective programs. If it was spent on infrastructure as a one time expenditure on facilities, then it might be more than two years.

Being stupid is a choice, AL.

Cedarford said...

Methadras - Clean your hands, don't eat pork for a while, wear a mask if you are so inclined and go about your business.Catching flu is not generally a function of washing hands, as it's spread is almost always aerosol.

Not eating pork to prevent you from getting swine flu as not eating venezuelan horses prevents the spread of venezuelan equine virus.

Masks have limited effectiveness agaanst timy flu virus smaller than the holes in the mask. Some, as when the virus is attached to a dust mote or a relatively speaking - huge- microglobule of someone elses snot sneezed 200 yards away, 10 minutes earlier. But help somewhat in knocking down aerosol of an infected person caughing or sneezing into the mask - which is at odds with most people's behavior - they lift the mask up when sneezing or coughing. And in the big scheme of things, flu spreads so easily that it is like constructing a levee on your riverfrontage, while several neighbors don't. In a flood, the water ends up on your place, anyways.

Christy said...

Bandannas would be so much sexier on flu patients than masks.

Methadras said...

"Clean your hands, don't eat pork for a while, wear a mask if you are so inclined and go about your business. If you feel funny, hit the emergency room and get checked. If the illegal aliens can do it, so can you."

Guys, this was clearly meant as sarcasm as the last sentence in this statement was overtly obvious of that. I guess I'll need to put a sarcasm tag from now on for those that don't get it.

Hoosier Daddy said...

(The GOP is the anti-government party. )

I know you'll just sputter off some diatribe without really reading this but the GOP is the small government party, not the anti-government party. There is a difference.

You think government is the solution to all problems. I don't.

Synova said...

"I read The Great Influenza a few years ago, and it talked about how a few small towns basically posted sentries outside of the town and wouldn’t let anyone in or out. It worked."

I don't think it was the flu, it was something else (involving children being unable to breathe... but way back then) but my Mom was telling me that individual farms were quarantined, people were so afraid of it. The dead weren't even allowed brought to the church yard to be buried, so some farms in the area have small plots where they buried the children.

hdhouse said...

Peter V. Bella said...
"Earth to idiot: You don't catch swine flu from eating pork. OMG!"

Then why is it called swine flu?"

OMG again Peter. There are a number of strains of the flu virus, some come natural from birds (bird flu) and some from pigs (swine flu) and others show up here and there.

This particular flu is a mixture of 2 different strains of swine flu and 1 bird flu and one other...a hodgepodge so to speak. We don't seem to be naturally resistent to it as it is a new batch, hence the concern.

Flu is a virus that attacks through the respiratory system (hands to mouth area or nose area and inhaled). It doesn't come in through the stomach and unless you eat raw virus carrying pork or chickens, and smear the raw meat around your nose and sniff it, you don't catch it.

daredevil-66 said...

Whats maddening about the latest democratic talking point is how quickly it will be abandoned once the panic has dissipated. Common sense scrutiny tells us even had the money been alloted in the so-called stimulus bill, there is no assurance it would even have been allocated in time. Stupid, stupid liberals and their dumb rhetoric, that's what we need an antidote for!

AlphaLiberal said...

Synova, we'd be more prepared than we are today. Now we need to wait for 2010 appropriations process to occur, which could take many more months.

We could have ordered more serum, started hiring and contracting for staff, etc. CDC would, very simply, have far more resources today than they do now.

To argue we'd be in the exact same position is pretty disingenuous. (But the important thing here is for you to attack me, I know)

Shirk responsibility all you want but Nichol's bottom line point is spot-on: these simple-minded games of opposing something just because the other side is for it has real world implications.

AlphaLiberal said...

And, to Ann and the righties who seem some vast plot in this column from John Nichols, I quote from the article:

But Senate Democrats bent to her demands. That makes them, at the very least, complicit in the weakening of what needed to be a muscular plan.

The bottom line is that there were no heroes in either party on the Senate side of the ugly process that ridiculed and then eliminated pandemic preparedness funding.

garage mahal said...

See garage, you can't even make a joke and your own kind turn on you.Nobody gets me.

AlphaLiberal said...

Still waiting for the answer to this simple question:

Here's a challenge to the conservatives and Ayn Rand acolytes:Explain to us how the free market will protect us from swine flu epidemic. How does your "no/very limited government" ideology serve the people in this case?

Donald's Designated Driver said...

AL:

(1) "Withholding a vote" =/ a "filibuster."

(2) If the smarties on the left wanted pandemic preparedness that much, they could have fought to save it, and tried to trim the fat elsewhere. Geez, my senators pushed through a proposal to put a stupid trolly (that nobody will ride) in downtown Milwaukee at a cost of $ 91 Million. Cut that dumb idea and you are 10% the way there already!

The dems rolled on pandemic preparedness because they really didn't give a crap about it. It was a bargaining chip.

Methadras said...

"hdhouse said...

Earth to idiot: You don't catch swine flu from eating pork. OMG!"

First of all, I already know this. Second of all, out of my entire statement you more or less didn't address or refute it so if my bit of sarcasm is all you were able to critique then I'm not the one who is an idiot. But then again watching you kneel at the altar of your ideology in the way you have in this blog topic only illustrates what idiotic lure your willing to sink your lips into.

"Obama must occasional view the populace, catch sight (or in this case "wind") of the ilk of Methadras and scream "oh the humanity"."

Oh yes, he looks down on us ilky types like the lofty, bland, empty suit that he is and would rather scream, "Oh the huge manitee" instead, while he lovingly strokes the top of your head as you sit at his footsteps to his throne staring up at him waiting for your next bone of appreciation.

AlphaLiberal said...

daredevil-66:
Whats maddening about the latest democratic talking point is how quickly it will be abandoned once the panic has dissipated...

It. is. not. a. Democratic. talking. point. It is a column by an independent writer.

Well, more likely it will be replaced by some new public hazard that GOP ideology has left the country vulnerable to.

You guys will be snickering about global warming, food safety, volcano monitoring, pandemic preparedness and fighting preparedness measures.

Then, like small children, you will disclaim responsibility for your actions when they shit hits the fan.

AlphaLiberal said...

DDD:

Dems "rolled" on pandemic funding because that was the price that Susan Collins demanded for her vote to overcome the Republican filibuster:

Susan Collins:
COLLINS: There's funding to help improve our preparedness for a pandemic flu. There is funding to help improve cyber security. What does that have to do with an economic stimulus package? [CNN, 1/31/09]

COLLINS: I think everybody in the room is concerned about a pandemic flu. But does it belong in this bill? Should we have $870 million in this bill? No. We should not. [MSNBC, 2/5/09]

Source:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/27/gop-cut-flu-funding/

I agree they should have fought her over it.

Palladian said...

"Here's a challenge to the conservatives and Ayn Rand acolytes:Explain to us how the free market will protect us from swine flu epidemic. How does your "no/very limited government" ideology serve the people in this case?"

Because it will assuredly kill off a lot of people like you, therefore making a more pleasant and more efficient nation.

Now, explain to me how your "Fuck me in the ass again, Daddy!" government-lover ideology protect us from any epidemic? Socialism is not a magic talisman against disease. And even if we support a highly-funded CDC, NIH etc, does that mean that we have to support all the rest of your stupid, expensive bullshit? Did you people ever stop to think that maybe it's not an either-or situation?

And I wasn't aware that we had any Randians here... Could it be that you're just incapable of seeing anything except in absolutist binary terms?

Jesus, why can't we have smarter, more honest liberals than this pathetic gaggle? We've got the senile pants shitter, the copy/paster, the psychotic faggot, and the defeated Hillary lover without his own tag. That's the best you guys can offer us?

Christy said...

Alpha, my dear, you wrote (But the important thing here is for you to attack me, I know) . You are aware that in memory you have done nothing other than attack conservatives. You are accusing others of doing what you yourself have consistently done. Find me a post where you were not on the attack. Find one. And then tell me out of how many posts that one might be. Don't be so transparent in your hypocrisy, child. It isn't a good strategy.

Methadras said...

"AlphaLiberal said...

Here's a challenge to the conservatives and Ayn Rand acolytes:

Explain to us how the free market will protect us from swine flu epidemic. How does your "no/very limited government" ideology serve the people in this case?"

It doesn't. Because in reality these fast sweeping viral contagions are meant to attack the weakest among us and if you think government can fully immunize or administer anti-viral on the scope that is expected from any pandemic much less a 1913 flu outbreak then your question is as stupid as the one who posed it. Smaller government is about minimizing the intrusion of onerous government in the lives of it's citizens. However, government at some point has a vested interest in the health of it's citizens, but they work for us, not the other way around.

Private citizens should be responsible for their own health, safety, and welfare. If there is a fear of some sort of contagion, then they should go out and buy the appropriate immunization or with the help of government to some degree be able to attain it. This notion that conservatives or Ayn Rand acolytes are anti-government is a ridiculous assertion by leftists like you that have no clue or idea about conservatism or objectivism.

Anti-government conservatives are, in my opinion misguided, sometimes ill-informed, but well-intentioned. Limited government conservatives, which makes up a lot of the conservatives I know, see a role for government, but not the one it's taken on. Certainly they have a role in watching out for anything that would affect the populace they are Constitutionally obligated to protect, but the methods by which they seek to enact that protection or how intrusive it becomes is what is usually requires critique. Private industry and government can come together to solve these problems whereas private citizens do not have that immediate cohesion to put together a strategy to effectively deal with something like a flu pandemic.

But when government and it's departments and agencies go outside of their boundaries to dictate regulations, rules, and laws that are deemed unnecessary, redundant, or go against the will of the people, then you will have a problem.

Sofa King said...

Alpha -

Since DTL declined to respond to my query, I'll pose it to you:

Is there any amount of funding that would be "enough?" If so, how would we know when we've reached that point?

Synova said...

Hey, AL, thanks for the Susan Collins quotes. She seems like a smart cookie.

What *did* either of those things have to do with economic stimulous?

They didn't.

And they didn't belong in that bill. It was supposed to be about stimulating the economy. Why is this difficult for you, AL? Granted, it's pretty clear to a lot of people that it really didn't have anything at all to do with stimulating the economy other than hope that something good might happen by accident if only enough money was thrown willy-nilly at the problem.

Nor would funding in the stimulous bill for *any* problem we face today have made any difference at all *today* and certainly no funding to deal with a pandemic would have yet born any sort of fruit. There hasn't been time.

Shanna said...

wear a mask if you are so inclined.

I seem to recall from The Great Influenza that masks did not stop people from getting sick. I see the Mexico City folks wearing them, though. Is it just because that was a particularly virulent strain, or because the masks are better now or what?

daredevil-66 said...

another rich point is after liberals have spent years demonizing the pharmacuetical companys as the moustache twirling villains they have no trouble shreiking "help me daddy!" when a flu scare hits. I wonder how much money in R/D the "evil" drug companies shelled out so we could see AL live to vilify them another day?

Jeremy said...

Dare To Be A Dolt - "...another rich point is after liberals have spent years demonizing the pharmacuetical companys as the moustache twirling villains they have no trouble shreiking "help me daddy!" when a flu scare hits."

Right.

We need to help shore up those drug companies (especially their massive profits and long-term patents) who are just looking out for their fellow Americans.

You get dumber every day.

daredevil-66 said...

dirt bags like you can't get your mind around the fact its not a zero sum game if the drug companys make money. But then again you are dumbass liberal without a clue as to how markets work in the first place

AlphaLiberal said...

Synova, blindly repeating GOP talking points:

What *did* either of those things have to do with economic stimulous?.

My guess: They would pay people for doing work, which would pump money into the economy. Making serum, making plans, educating, etc...

or do you think pouring concrete is the only thing that qualifies as "stimulus" spending?

Mind you, I don't think most con's have the sightest clue of the rationale behind the stimulus: to try to keep the economy moving by making up for SOME (nowhere near all) of the decline in private spending. To reduce the amount of economic contraction.

Jeremy said...

Dare To Be A Dolt says..."...dirt bags like you can't get your mind around the fact its not a zero sum game if the drug companys make money."

Right.

The reason drugs in the United States cost more than anywhere else in the entire world...is because the drug companies are looking out for our citizens.

Do you ever actually read or research anything before blathering on about things you obviously know little if anything about?

Give it a shot.

AJ Lynch said...

I bet, on average, conservatives take more "real" science courses in college than liberals.

Jeremy said...

Shanna - Wearing a mask, good or bad, lowers the risk of any airborne virus or infection gaining a foothold.

There are other aspects relating to safety, washing hands, etc., but anything that makes contact with your mouth or nose gets a head start.

Henry said...

The Democrats begin the week with an absolutely perfect issue.It's an alternate-history hypothetical that assumes that government spending assumes a perfect trajectory towards perfect outcomes.

Sounds exactly like a perfect Democratic Party issue.

AJ Lynch said...

Alpha:

How can we make up for the contraction of your grey matter?

Jeremy said...

AJ Lynch said..."I bet, on average, conservatives take more "real" science courses in college than liberals."

Based on what?

The vodka you're drinking?

Why not provide any evidence of such a ridiculous notion.

AlphaLiberal said...

Methadras, thanks for answering, or dancing around, my question on the role of the free market in containing an epidemic. The answer is "damn near none."

As to your sudden protest that Republicans are not anti-government, I just have to laugh.

I've now spent months of my life hearing con's tell us how "government is not the solution, it's the problem."

A key Republican leader is Grover Norquist who argued "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.".

The amount of hatred for government in conservative ranks is undeniable. You just embarrass yourselves to try and deny it.

Henry said...

Synova -- note that Alpha is using a Nancy Pelosi definition of stimulus. You will never win this argument.

AlphaLiberal said...

AJ:

You project a lot.

MadisonMan said...
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MadisonMan said...

I bet, on average, conservatives take more "real" science courses in college than liberals.

Call me curve buster!

(You'd think that, after 2+ weeks, I'd remember about the new rules for quoting and spacing!)

AlphaLiberal said...

Henry:
I'm using the John Maynard Keynes definition of stimulus. The economists' definition.

AlphaLiberal said...

Conservatives take science courses? Really? Before or after they burn their books?

MadisonMan said...

The most interesting science class I took in college had a text called Water Quality in a Stressed Environment and it was all about the water cycle, and how pollutants can enter, and how they can be mitigated. Absolutely fascinating.

My least interesting science class was in Computer Science -- is that a "real" science? -- Compiler Construction? BORING!

AJ Lynch said...

Btw Alpha thanks so much for your typically condescending explanation of the Stimulus for Synova.

I am sure you believe [are libtards even allowed to have beliefs?] only super geeenyiouses like you know what it entails.

Jeremy said...

Dare To Be A Dolt - Here's something relating to your theory that "the fact its not a zero sum game if the drug companys (companies) make money."

Medicaid and Medicare, Prescription Drugs Report:

"Pharmaceutical industry profits increased by over $8 billion in the first six months after the Medicare drug plan went into effect.

The Republican Congress passed a Medicare drug bill that put the interests of the drug companies first and seniors last.

According to the analysis, the Medicare drug program contributed to this surge in drug profits through a combination of three factors:

1. The failure of private plans to negotiate low prices

2. The elimination of billions in rebates paid by pharmaceutical companies for drugs used by low income beneficiaries

3. The increased sales by drug manufacturers due to the Medicare subsidy.

The high prices under the Medicare program have resulted in billions of dollars of wasted taxpayer funds.

At the bidding of the big drug companies and their friends in Congress, this law was specifically written to prohibit Medicare from negotiating for lower prices even though a similar bargaining system has worked well in the Veteran’s Administration for years.

Palladian said...

The scientists that I know aren't really interested in partisan politics that much because, you know, they're busy being scientists, thinking about actually important and interesting things.

hdhouse said...

Methadras said...
"AlphaLiberal said...
But when government and it's departments and agencies go outside of their boundaries to dictate regulations, rules, and laws that are deemed unnecessary, redundant, or go against the will of the people, then you will have a problem."

The will of which people? the minority who so clearly got their butt whipped last november? we are supposed to follow the lead of the minority here? what in the world are you talking about?

Palladian said...

Oh I forgot to add the sociopathic community college psychology teacher to my list of the stupid kind of liberals that exist in surfeit on this blog.

Palladian said...

"The will of which people? the minority who so clearly got their butt whipped last november? we are supposed to follow the lead of the minority here? what in the world are you talking about?"

You ask that question a lot, don't you?

MadisonMan said...

The scientists that I know Hi Palladian! I'm waving at you!

AJ Lynch said...

Mad Man:

Real science courses include the hard courses like math, physics, chem, bio, anatomy, engineering.

Psuedo science courses may include sociology, gender studies, religion, urban studies, marketing, economics and the like.

I am sure you can see the difference. "Real" or "hard science" is not some new term. I am sure you have heard it at cocktail parties and faculty gabfests.

Hoosier Daddy said...

(The will of which people? the minority who so clearly got their butt whipped last november?)

You know, I'm trying to figure out how the minority who got its butt kicked last year can still hold up important legislation and strip away vital funding from the stimulus.

Are the Democrats that inept at leading?

Palladian said...

"The scientists that I know Hi Palladian! I'm waving at you!"

Do I know you?!

You don't seem very interested in partisan politics.

AlphaLiberal said...

Hoosier Dady, not very bright:


You know, I'm trying to figure out how the minority who got its butt kicked last year can still hold up important legislation and strip away vital funding from the stimulus.

Have you heard of the “filibuster?” Why don’t you go study up on that and then you can come back and chat with the grown ups with you know something.

Paul Zrimsek said...

How much longer before we get to start calling them "bedwetters"?

AlphaLiberal said...

Atmospheric Sciences was my favorite. I didn't realize how much the composition and structure of Earth's atmosphere has allowed life to flourish.

For example, other planets don't have ozone layers. Makes a big difference.

daredevil-66 said...

ah yes, the dullard brings up medicare, yet another failed federal government enterprise. We must always rememember back in 1965when it was enacted, that program was supposed to be self supporting, limited program to handle the truly needy and handicapped. Instead it has grown into a enormous entitlement that will be going bust in a few years when the baby boomers get there. And yet we want to let the federal govt. take over the rest of healthcare? Only a liberal could possibly be that stupid as to want that.

Anthony said...

It's a common meme on the Left these days; any Republican coming out against any "science" spending in the Spendulus bill is "anti-science". Steve Mirsky in Scientific American went on a tear against McCain and Palin about their objection to volcano monitoring funds in the Spendulus as having nothing to do with economic stimulus.

I know it sounds funny now, but I actually used to think of Liberals as the smart ones. Were so many of them always this dishonest and dumb or is it something I just started noticing? (well, several years ago I started noticing actually)

babsheep300 said...

Wow, I thought this place had more logical commenters than others on the web. This thread has displayed some weak thinking and analysis.

For example, this event is either dangerous, in which case the administration should be taking action (which it is currently not), or it is not dangerous, in which case the argument about funding not allocated in February (and would not even have been spent between then and now) is a moot point.

Second, regarding government being involved with disease control, of course it should be, it is a national defense issue. The questions are what should be the objectives, and how big should be the funding? That we have a government that has wasted trillions on non-critical national defense issues has made it harder to fund areas such as this. The insurance analogy applies; when you only have the funds for immediate needs and risks, the insurance to protect against theoretical future risks go unfunded.

We are out of money, we can't fund everything. It is obviously time we get our priorities straight. I actually agree with what downtownlad said regarding some of those funding (and not funding) priorities. That said, I think the argument attempting to blame Republicans is incredibly disingenuous and is completely lacking in logic. It is truly unbelievable some people can warp their personal reality to believe such a thing.

Hoosier Daddy said...

(Why don’t you go study up on that and then you can come back and chat with the grown ups with you know something.)

That's funny coming from you.

Sofa King said...

Jeremy, since both AlphaLiberal and DTL seem unable to answer my very simple question, would you like to take a stab?

Is there any amount of funding that would be "enough?" If so, how would we know when we've reached that point?

AlphaLiberal said...

How much longer before we get to start calling them "bedwetters"?.

You mean the Republicans scared so shitless over the terror threat that they roll back our Constitutional freedoms and engage in torture?

Go for it.

If you mean liberals who say we should be prepared for outbreaks of infectious disease, well that would just be dumb.

AlphaLiberal said...

Hoosier, Daddy, do you even understand how a small handful of Senators can stop bills from passing?

Sounds like you don't.

-----
Sofa King. I'm not an infectious disease expert. But I think the answer to your question is certainly "yes."

What relevance it has is hard to determine.

AlphaLiberal said...

Babsheep brings new cluelessnesss to bear:
this event is either dangerous, in which case the administration should be taking action (which it is currently not),So, the White House held a press conference yesterday with the head of Homeland Security and CDC and others. They are informing the public. They have declared a medical emergency and are distributing limited amounts of vaccine. They are coordinating with other nations.

In what alternate universe is this not taking action??

Bizarre.
-----------
Anthony:
It's a common meme on the Left these days; any Republican coming out against any "science" spending in the Spendulus bill is "anti-science".No, you've got it wrong. For example, the Bush Regime went on an anti-science tear and politicized scientific findings to make them comport to Republican ideology.

More stuff like that. But I need to leave...

Hoosier Daddy said...

(Hoosier, Daddy, do you even understand how a small handful of Senators can stop bills from passing?

Sounds like you don't
)

No Alpha, I am well aware of how a filibuster works. The point that you consistently miss is that your party has controlled Congress since 2006 and secured an even higher majority in the last election not to mention winning the Presidency with a supposed mandate. If you can't sway another 2 fucking Senators to your side of the fence to break a filibuster than that doesn't speak well for your side.

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