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Lefties are as stupid as they are shallow. Even more so with the professorati.
What can I say? She didn't defend her actions well when she was in office, so she's going to have to now.So far, I think she's getting what she deserves.
That was not very nice of the students ;)
Shouldn't she be working on her book, or talk show deal? She doesn't strike me as the rumpled professorial type.http://twitter.com/maxinesplace
How disrespectful to the warmonger-American community! I've never been so offended. It's like we don't have rights anymore.
Where have I heard that before?If Adolf Hitler flew in todayThey'd send a limousine anywayWhite Man (In Hammersmith Palais) - The Clash. Midnight to six manFor the first time from JamaicaDillinger and Leroy SmartDelroy Wilson, your cool operatorKen Boothe for UK pop reggaeWith backing bands sound systemsAnd if they've got anything to sayThere's many black ears here to listenBut it was Four Tops all night with encores from stage rightCharging from the bass knives to the trebleBut onstage they ain't got no roots rock rebelOnstage they ain't got no...roots rock rebelDress back jump back this is a bluebeat attack'Cos it won't get you anywhereFooling with your gunsThe British Army is waiting out thereAn' it weighs fifteen hundred tonsWhite youth, black youthBetter find another solutionWhy not phone up Robin HoodAnd ask him for some wealth distributionPunk rockers in the UKThey won't notice anywayThey're all too busy fightingFor a good place under the lightingThe new groups are not concernedWith what there is to be learnedThey got Burton suits, ha you think it's funnyTurning rebellion into moneyAll over people changing their votesAlong with their overcoatsIf Adolf Hitler flew in todayThey'd send a limousine anywayI'm the all night drug-prowling wolfWho looks so sick in the sunI'm the white man in the PalaisJust lookin' for funI'm onlyLooking for fun
I had read an earlier article where she said:“I think we have to have in democratic circumstances respectful engagement. It should not be confrontational. It doesn’t help anybody to have confrontation..."And all I could think about was how she let those prisoners get treated. Respectful engagement! She seems so out of touch to me. I think she thought she wouldn't have problems at Stanford. I also remember how her people floated her name as a vice presidential pick. Ridiculous.
Maybe Bill Ayers can give Condi some pointers on how to readjust to college life.
It's nice to see the same reliable idiots who would go to the wall for Hamas while condemning Israel take after Condi.If only she could have planted bombs in the US or accused the victims of 9-11 of being Nazis. She would be welcomed with open arms.Why is the academy such a screwed up expensive mess, and why do we all have to share the burden of far left indoctrination?What a complete fucking waste.
What a tired routine you have, Ann. You pick out of context the most outrageous, poorly considered quote and then put it up on your web site to generate traffic. Do you put up the text from the petition? No. Do you (falsely and dishonestly) make it seem like Rice was being compared to Hitler? Yes. Condi Rice was, literally, a "warmonger" as she helped sell a war to the American people. That's a fact -- not an opinion -- when she was warning of Iraq having nukes and spreading other disinformation. Some people sell fish - they are "fishmongers." Some people sell wars - they are "warmongers." This is the role Rice chose to play. And people back home will not sweep it under the rug. Good for them.I just watched a movie about a Colonel escorting home a Marine killed in Iraq. This is real, not some word game for you to use to stir web traffic. Real lives have been destroyed, American and Iraqi. Thousands of people of all kinds - killed, wounded and maimed in Rice's war. Feh.
BHO is continuing the Bush policy of rendition, keeping Gitmo open and escalating the war in Afghanistan. Would he be welcome at Stanford?This is another attempt to keep liberal purity on campus. If Condi were anything but conservative her racial and gender status would render her untouchable.
College life absolutely baffles me; was it this stupidly surreal when I went through? If only I had not been so focused on getting la-, er, my degree and keeping my nose to the grindstone, I would have paid attention to all the silly things the professors were doing.How could Stanford NOT want Rice to come to the school and teach there? She was the National Security Advisor AND Secretary of State during some of the most tumultuous events of the past fifty years for God's sake. You could sharpshoot all the Bush administration's policies of the last 8 years every time you came to class. If nothing else it would keep you awake.It would be worth demeaning yourself and applying for John Edwards' "Everyone Goes to College" grants to audit one of her classes, and these knuckleheads are going to diss her because of stupid war crimes?Fine, I hope Stanford students get their way, keep her out, and the University hires some unwashed hippy loser PhD with asthma and a monotone voice in her place, and all the shrill War Crime yellers are forced to sit through his boring class every MWF from 8-9 A.M, and read his stupid book that cost $89.00, hopefully something like Adlai Stevenson, the Formative Years, or some comparable tripe, and they have to spend $3.95 on an extra large coffee just to stay awake in class, especially when they're hung over friday morning.Speaking of coffee, I probably drank a bit too much tonight. . .
Wow, do you get the feeling some people are a little upset now that the US didn't leave Iraq in defeat under Bush?
Alpha Liberal: your routine is not tired, its stupid. What you don't get is that you don't get it because you can't get it. As the song says, "don't criticize what you can't understand"Jokes on you, dude.
It's as if the lives of the 25 million liberated and allowed their first measure of self-determination means nothing to these purveyors of "human rights, the U.S. Constitution and international law."The dissonance is deafening.
Maxine, who does strike you? And can we pay them to do a better job?
AlphaLiberal : You pick out of context the most outrageous, poorly considered quote and then put it up on your web site to generate traffic.How can she post one sentence of an article and have it NOT be out of context?Do you put up the text from the petition? No.If you READ the article you'll notice there was no petition, just a letter.Do you (falsely and dishonestly) make it seem like Rice was being compared to Hitler? Yes.I think they ARE comparing her to Hitler. Also I think she chose that sentence because it is the most interesting. And that got me to read the article.
Condi Rice: "We do know that [Saddam] is actively pursuing a nuclear weapon." Well, Condi, why should we believe you about anything? And, why should you continue teaching when your word is mud? Condi Rice: "we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." Saddam had NO nuclear weapons development activities. As many people, including Scott Ritter, tried to explain in the run up to the invasion and occupation. They (we) were derided for disagreeing with the Bush Administration. Regarding the forged documents used to make the case that Saddam tried to buy uranium in Africa:""no one in our circles knew that there were doubts and suspicions that this might be a forgery." FALSE. This was hotly contested and flagged in the 2002 NIE. Condi lies to cover Bush-Cheney incompetence:"I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon. that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile,"Apparently, the FAA (in Spring of 2001) was "nobody." There were other warnings. You could write a book on the warmongering lies of Condi Rice.
Jason posts some questions/responses for me:How can she post one sentence of an article and have it NOT be out of context?There are several other sentences that would not mislead the reader. If you READ the article you'll notice there was no petition, just a letter.I did READ the article. And I READ this:Anti-Rice petition makes war crimes allegationMy emphasis. (Actually, this is not quite right because the text they print only refers to other "serious allegations," not actually making an actual claim). I think they ARE comparing her to Hitler.Well, first, one person said it. And it could be read as a comparison, or not. I think it was a bad choice of words and one should try to be careful in what they say when being interviewed.
She knows Russian. She wouldn't have given our self-designated enemy a reset button in the first place, but if she had, it would have gotten the bloody word right. And in Cyrillic.
Maybe instead of a book, we could make a video, and include Bill and Hillary, John Kerry, Rockefeller, and countless others tell us that:a. Sadam most certanly has WMD andb. He wouldn't hesitate to use them if he were allowed to stay in power.Very convincing.
Alpha Liberal suggests with an apparent straight face that a leftist with a petition should be taken seriously. Do you have any idea how foolish you appear to most people, Alpha? Not for nothing have you been accused on this very blog of being a brilliant satirist. Not by me. I say you are a loon.
Do you (falsely and dishonestly) make it seem like Rice was being compared to Hitler?See, when Pastor Browning compared Rice to Hitler he wasn't, like, comparing her to HITLER. He was just saying that she's like Hitler. Get it?Me neither. It sure sounded to me like he compared her to Hitler. Not much other reason to bring the man up, since he had absolutely nothing to do with Rice's service in the Bush administration.
I love the far left. They are the epitome of buffoonery. They are also pillars of hypocrisy. They, who so cherish civil liberties, would deny a person the right return to work after government service. If this is what higher educaqtion has come to then this country is in big trouble. Ooops, I forgot. They are running this country now. We are in deep trouble.
AlphaLiberal,There is a correction right at the top of the article that says:"Similarly, it should be noted that the group’s piece is an open letter, rather than a petition."
Hey Alpha, the mighty fighting liberal, why don't you ever say anything about those paragons of justice and civil rights that you so emulate- the Taliban, Hugo Chavez, Iran, the Castros, etc. I would bet you have posters of those late great heroes and murderers Idi Amin and Che on your walls along with a signed autographed picture of Robert Mugabe.You are such a juvenile squib and a hypocrite to boot. Just a reminder- we all have rights. Not just you lefties and followers of the Messiah.
"Shahid" is very willing to sacrifice other peoples' lives to make the world as he thinks it should be:It's as if the lives of the 25 million liberated and allowed their first measure of self-determination means nothing to these purveyors of "human rights, the U.S. Constitution and international law."So, let me get this straight. You (and Condi Rice) decided that the deaths of 10s of thousands of Iraqis (setting aside American lives for now) were justified to overthrow Saddam.Keep in mind, the Iraqi's could have made this decision to have 10s of thousands of them die overthrowing the tyrant Saddam. They did not, though God knows some tried. But you decide their lives and limbs are okay to be sacrificed in the pursuit of YOUR cause. Can you grasp how bloody arrogant that is? To sacrifice other people on your own altar of this corrupted notion of "freedom." Now, when millions are living in exile, after the ethnic division of Baghdad? Really, that's sick.
Hey, Peter, you lying sack of shit. I don't "emulate the Taliban, Hugo Chavez, Iran, the Castros, etc."Go fuck yourself.
Conservatives have become such twisted freaks.
First of all, tens of thousands of Iraqis did not die in Iraq as a result of the U.S. occupation. No credible source comes anywhere near suggesting that.Second of all, yes. American interests are important and sometimes people die as a result of their attainment. The same can be said of German interests, or North Korean interests, or the interests of Hamas.It's really, really silly for leftist loons or any other kinds of loons to suggest that somehow this kind of thing is going to stop. It's gone on since the beginning of time. It will go on until the end of time.The fact that the United States even cares about minimizing death and destruction, or allows you to anguish about it, is a testament to the awesomeness of our country and its leaders. Very mich including Condi Rice.
AlphaLiberal: Go fuck yourself.Conservatives have become such twisted freaks.If they can do THAT I would agree. (send me pictures)
I was hoping Alpha would tell me to go fuck myself. I have to go to bed now, and that would not have been an unreasonable request.
"Do you (falsely and dishonestly) make it seem like Rice was being compared to Hitler? Yes"I read the article AL. Rice was clearly being compared to Hitler. Exactly what part of the sentence is taken out of context?Also, Hussein was pursuing nuclear weapons, albeit not very effectively, and did attempt to buy uranium in Africa. That some documents supporting these facts were forged doesn't alter that reality. CBS displayed forged documents that said W was a member of an ANG unit in Texas. That doesn't mean he wasn't, just that the documents in question were forgeries."I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon. that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile,"I'd be more inclined to call it ignorance than a lie, but I'll give you this one. Given that the hijacked airliner as missile scenario had been both thought of and attempted before - in this country - this was a staggeringly idiotic remark.
Mildly OT, HRC just announced a million dollar scholarship to be used for Palestinians attending American Universities.Apparently because ther are not enough Israel hating anti-semites at our elite colleges already.
Alpha Liberal, you are a lying piece of turd. You couldn't shine Condi Rice's Ferragamos.Had a Democrat sent our troops to Iraq, you'd have been the first in line supporting the war, you shrill, partisan piece of dogshit. And how do I know this? Obama is continuing Bush's policy on the war on terror and extraordinary rendition with NARY A PEEP from you, you partisan assclown, and you've got no problem with that.You never had a problem with the Iraq War, just the party of the people in power at the time it happened. Fuck you.I bet when they catch Obama waterboarding some poor Islmofascist slob, you'll be the first Libtard fuckwit on here rationalizing it. Liberals have no principles save those which gain them power.
Go fuck yourself.Spoken like a true liberal intellectual. I'll bet mammy and pappy back in the trailer park are realllly proud of their little Alpha. That thar college edumication shore gave him some high falutin vocabulary!!!!!!!!!
Beta -- Is that really a bad thing to bring Palestinians to the United States for higher education? They may end up like that poor, sad tool Sayyid Qutb, who seemed to get warped by his experience. Or, they may end up like the countless other people who have come into our orbit and been marinated very much for the good by our way of life and our freedoms and our culture.Just so you know, it has been American policy to do this kind of thing for years and years, under every president. Let's pick our battles and not bitch about everything the left does. Let's focus on the definitively shitty stuff. God knows: there's plenty.
AlphaLiberal said... Condi Rice: "We do know that [Saddam] is actively pursuing a nuclear weapon." Does "pursuing a nuclear weapon" include the purchase of a nuclear weapon?Development programs aside, without question Saddam was one of world's few buyers with the motive and wherewithal to procure loose nukes.
HRC just announced a million dollar scholarship to be used for Palestinians attending American Universities.I hope it is not taxpayer money? What gives her that right? Oh, yeah. Now I get it. They get to go to American Universities, meet, mingle with, and identify American Jews, and kill them; all in the name of higher education and the glorification of the Clinton Crime Family.
When I read Alpha Liberal's diatribe against "warmongers," all I could think of was Grima Wormtongue's line from The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers:"Why do you lay these troubles on an already troubled mind? Do you not see that your uncle is weary of your malcontent... your war-mongering?"Then again, you probably thought that Wormtongue was one of the good guys, Alpha Liberal. It seems that liberals are usually incapable of telling friend from foe.
Peter -- Again, every administration has done this scholarship thing since WWII. It's common and, while there are drawbacks, there are also many benefits. The key thing to believe is that American culture is good and that people will be better disposed to us if they are exposed to it.Don't you believe that?
To read some of the comments here you think that Rice was still a "Never waste a good crisis" Secretary.I dectect a little nostalgia for Bush and Cheney..
@Beta Conservative, when you talk about these reliable idiots, do you mean Stanford? Are you talking about the Stanford that says Hamas must be held politically accountable"?Stanford is not a monolith, nor are liberals. You run the risk of looking like a monolith yourself, however, when you bring up tenuous connections to reformed terrorists, and isolated, arrogant professors.Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "the academy", but Stanford is a private university, so unless you're making gifts to Stanford, you're sharing no burden there.
Alpha Liberal is a stupidmonger.
Alpha Liberal is a stupidmonger.Because people who sell stupid are stupid mongers.
Rob -- Stanford does a tremendous job of providing a platform for a very diverse array of opinions. That said, you are a real tool to suggest that Stanford receives no tax money.Think, dude. I mean, really.
Well, it is pretty silly. A bunch of liberal loons with margin connection to reality. My guess is that regardless of whether Stanford really wants Dr. Rice back, they probably don't have a choice - she likely has tenure there. If not from her first time there, then probably when she became provost. And, so, the school either has her teach, or just pays her and gives her an office.
@ Seven Machos - Your comment to me is rude, and while I can see how that might help you score internet points, internet points aren't really worth anything.That said, I'm educable. Do you have some further information for me? I did a cursory search to try to find out about Stanford's funding, couldn't find anything, and took a leap.I'm happy to retract my suggestion if you can help clarify.
Oh, and just to point out the absurdity, whoever is accusing Dr. Rice of simularity with Hitler totally misunderstands the nature of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei).
Seven,I would rather have her spend the money on appropriate gifts for foreign leaders than wastrel Palestinians.
Rob -- You don't need the Internet to know that a tremendous majority of students at Stanford pay for school with student loans -- subsidized to the tune of hundreds of millions by the federal government each year -- and with direct grants from federal and state governments. Virtually every student at every school in America is eligible for one or both. Furthermore, the government is the primary funder of research projects at all universities. This is basic stuff, dude.There are two schools in the country that accept no government money -- Grove City College and Hillsdale College. Both are openly conservative/libertarian institutions.Finally, if you don't like snark, blog comments aren't really for you. Are they?
Seven--Just 14 more internet points and you can pick a prize off the top shelf!
I am on a roll tonight, Blake. Thank you. I've got my eye on the plush, stuffed red Althouse.
@Seven Machos - Of course! I totally should have known that. Thanks for clearing that up.I guess the questions then become: is it screwed up, and is it far left indoctrination? I mean, how did all the neocons make it through university free of the indoctrination? How did the free market capitalists make it out with their free market theories intact?I think I'll retain my autonomy with respect to whether blog comments are for me or not, but thanks for the advice.
Hey Seven,If I am not mistaken, isn't Stanford also the home of one the main the Conservative or Libertarian think tanks?
Neocon is a code word for Jewish people who are more conservative. It's identical to the way that people are always calling black quarterbacks "athletic." Both are terribly racist for a variety of reasons.Anyway, the point of a college education in the liberals arts and sciences is to learn how to think better. I have had professors who were very far to the left who did a good job at that. My favorite professor ever was a leftist Straussian with some truly bizarre ideas. I love that man like a father. Just as nutball leftists should be allowed to teach and work at universities, so should very sensible (and in this case very influential) statespersons such as Condi Rice. The fact this is even an issue shows how totalitarian the left is.
Peter -- Absolutely it is: the Hoover Institution. Donate today!
My class President went to Stanford - the son of a wealthy conservative owner of a civil engineering firm. The boy was a lazy ass liberal who actually got kicked out of Stanford for illegal activity in his last Senior semester.He ended up at the local comm college, found work in a local restaurant (hell of an embarrassment for him), and lived the no-money-from-asshole-dad life foe about 10 years, during which he started a cleaning company on his own.He sold the cleaning company 8 years ago, went to USC and got his engineering degree. Asshole Dad - the conservative who cut his liberal prankster son loose, hired his son 3 years ago into the firm. Dad died last year, Son is now 2nd in command.And conservative as hell.Moral of story -Alpha Liberal, et al, need to get real jobs.
Hoover Institute Rules:Shelby Steele, Thomas Stowell, et al.And as to Condi at Stanford:Go Condi, Go Condi!
Hey Alpha the mighty fighting liberal,I'm no ordinary lying sack of shit! The worst thing in life you can be is ordinary.
"Can you grasp how bloody arrogant that is? To sacrifice other people on your own altar of this corrupted notion of "freedom." Now, when millions are living in exile, after the ethnic division of Baghdad?Really, that's sick."So why do you do it? You apparently were cool with Saddam killing Kurds. And Iraqis. And Iranians. Kuwaitis. The occasional American pilot. Trying to do a former US President. Really, that's sick.
Oh, wow. Students really are full of themselves, aren't they.And I thought Stanford was relatively sane.
@ Seven Machos - I'll have to study up on neoconservatism.It sounds like your experience bears out the main point I was making, that Stanford is not a monolith, and also my subsequent point, that any indoctrination that might be happening is neither comprehensively effective nor unavoidable.And yet somehow idea that Stanford isn't a monolith doesn't apply to the the left, and how totalitarian they are. That's not making sense to me.As to whether or not Rice will speak at Stanford, what are the chances that this letter will from this small group within Stanford will cause all of Stanford to uninvite her?Stanford isn't UC Santa Cruz, after all.
Rob -- You let me know when anyone at or near Stanford starts pitching a fit because some ultra-leftist is coming to campus. I'll be waiting. I'll also be dying eventually.
@ Seven Machos - Ha, I expect you'll get the news before I will, but seriously: obviously there are vocal liberals doing crazy stuff at Stanford, but that's not all of Stanford. It's not even a sizable portion of Stanford. And it's certainly not the entire left wing.Also, someone at or near Stanford, pitching a fit, does not a totalitarian make. A gadfly, perhaps.
You may not like Rice's politics but she has far more real world experience than some other Stanford professors, who have never been out of the country except to visit their grandparents in Tel Aviv or to smoke pot in Amsterdam.
AlphaLiberal -- "You (and Condi Rice) decided that the deaths of 10s of thousands of Iraqis (setting aside American lives for now) were justified to overthrow Saddam."Even given those numbers, it would have only taken Saddam four months to top it. You're OK with that, right?Liberal - not for liberty, just for leftism.
The bombings of Dresden -- so sever that there was no oxygen to breathe -- those were fine. And light bombing of various parts of the former Yugoslavia was fine, too.Also, we aren't killing and maiming in Afghanistan under Obama today, as we speak. And Obama should send troops to Darfur. Because they won't kill anybody. They'll just bring peace.
To think that the person who said this: “In the name of academic freedom, people are okay with what is a matter of fundamental values and turning our back to the international community.” ... is graduating from Stanford in just a few months.Idiots.
If I am not mistaken, isn't Stanford also the home of one the main the Conservative or Libertarian think tanks?The Hoover Institute, yes.
Most telling part of bent left diatribe..."“Neutrality helps oppression,” Browning said. “If we don’t condemn [Rice’s actions] or seek justice, we are supporting it.”".I would posit to Alpha Liberal and other leftist playhouse pals, that the Minister Geoff Browning got it right, but didn't quite understand the hypocrisy of his statement to the rest of his screed.You cannot be 'neutral' to oppression. The U.S. saw much and very evil oppression in Iraq and chose to no longer be 'neutral'. Rice was part of a team that sought and delivered justice to the 25mm Iraqis. They now have a chance at a better life. Is there a cost to such undertakings, yes. That is why success and victory was paramount, unlike our current One and his minions in Congress who tried to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Those brave soldiers and innocent civilians who died or were injured/maimed, are the true heroes.That Minister Browning cannot see his own hypocrisy is another shining example of Liberaldom's "Don't let the facts get in the way of your beliefs" Syndrome.Consistency is the foundation of standing on principle.
Why is the left so offended by competence.Someone get them an Overcharge Button!
They are offended by traitors - race traitors and gender traitors - women, minorities and minority women who are not communists like them. That is unforgivable.
It's identical to the way that people are always calling black quarterbacks "athletic."Calling a quarterback (of any color) athletic is racist now? Really? This article is nothing new. People call conservatives Hitler all the time. Idiots.
Trying to catch up with new comments, but re whether Rice will speak there... as if she didn't belong or something -- she taught there and was Provost of Stanford for crying out loud.I wonder if some of the vocal protestors at Stanford have looked at her background? Madeleine Albright's father was a huge influence in her life. Nahh ... doesn't fit their template.(Wonder is she is having voter's remorse?)
A quick quiz.If Hitler was in power today, the Obama Administration would:A. Seek out moderate Nazi's to negotiate with without precondition;B. Give him a "Neu Stellen Button";C. Appoint an intelligence official who, while running a German funded think-tank, opined that the real problem with Kristallnacht was that it was too little, too late; orD. All of the above.
Alphaliberal--Some people sell fish - they are "fishmongers." Some people sell wars - they are "warmongers." And some people are shitmongers, Alpha.
Here is the mutt behind most of this nonsense.All you anti-christian 'tards should be up for running this guy off campus, not Rice.
Jason (the commenter): And all I could think about was how she let those prisoners get treatedMaybe you should give your little brain a break and try thinking about the pictures of those people jumping from the top floors of the World Trade Center, you walking morality-free zone.
DBrooks17 -- you beat me by 36 minutes.
Upcoming Stanford Says No To War activity""Guerilla theatre project with STAMP* People will dress up as military recruiters and “recruit” people* mobilize males!* Brochures about real facts of the war, publicize* Scheduled to be some time in MayHere they are on facebook."We will work to create an inclusive, tolerant, respectful environment that engages with issues facing us in the world, and breaks the silence on the serious questions war raises in our community. We will work, through nonviolent and peaceful means, to make Stanford a better place in a better world: free of war criminals, free of war profiteers, a place of knowledge and learning for peaceful ends, and aware of the role that the university, and more broadly the United States, plays in the world. "LOL. That's so goddamned cute, it makes me want to hurl. So earnest they are, so ineffectual and stupid and easily fooled. Funny, funny shit.
@Rob, I'm sure there is not alot of taxpayer money at Stanford, but I would think there are Pell Grants and fed. research dollars showing up in some amount.My complaint really was that we as taxpayers send an enormous amount of money into the abyss of education at all levels in this country, and are largely rewarded with a system that despises at least half of us.
I love the irony of this statement: “Neutrality helps oppression,” Browning said. In other words those who standby and do nothing are aiding oppression? So the invasion of Iraq was the right thing to do? What is next Mr. Browning? Should we take on North Korea? Sudan? Somalia?
Reader, sorry for clogging up your inbox with duplicate posts -- it's important to me that I comment as private citizen Joan and not as a representative of ThyCa, the organization with which I am associated as a cancer support group facilitator. Since I recently launched my own group, I'm more often logged in with that other ID now -- I have to get into the habit of checking which account I'm posting under before I hit publish. To be honest, I did know there is such a thing as getting email updates, and I get them on my own blog, but no, it never occurred to me that anyone would subscribe to such updates on a blog like Althouse where there is so much comment traffic! A perfect example of to each her own, yes?Pogo, yeah, this is some funny shit, the kind that makes you laugh because if you don't, you'll cry.
@ Beta Conservative - Right, Seven Machos set me straight on that, upthread.We also went over the possibility that the indoctrination is neither as effective nor as unavoidable as hyperbole suggests.But what to do, what to do?
If anything were as bad as my hyperbole suggests I'd kill myself.
@ Beta Conservative - So, seriously, and out of curiosity, what's your payoff for the hyperbole?
Blogger Seven Machos said... I am on a roll tonight, Blake. Thank you. I've got my eye on the plush, stuffed red Althouse.Hold on, I haven't stuffed her yet....Blogger Rob Prideaux said... @ Beta Conservative - Right, Seven Machos set me straight on that, upthread. We also went over the possibility that the indoctrination is neither as effective nor as unavoidable as hyperbole suggests. But what to do, what to do? 12:39 PM--Oh, well, people overcame the Soviets' indoctrination too, therefore there was no indoctrination? Solzhenitsyn was free in his mind, therefore Russia was free in its mind? People resisted torture, therefore there was no torture? What is it you think you're saying?
Appoint an intelligence official who, while running a German funded think-tank, opined that the real problem with Kristallnacht was that it was too little, too late; orOn the plus side, Cedarford's appointment would give the Althouse blog an inside track on White House gossip. So it wouldn't all be bad.
@Rob, I'm not sure if there is a payoff as such, but I think hyperbole expresses with a slightly humorous or exaggerated edge the real fear that the country I love is going to become unrecognizable to me, that those who believe the power of the collective trumps the rights of the individual are not the fringe anymore. They are the new keepers of the convential wisdom. In the media and in education from K5 through Phd studies.I also think after 8 years of hearing all about chimpymchitlerhalliburtonwardodgingdaddysboy it's fun to play for the team out of power and make a little mischief along the way.
@ Revenant "people overcame the Soviets' indoctrination too". OK, so you're comparing the historical Soviet Union to today's American education system. While that gives you an opportunity to render clever statements about Solzhenitsyn, it's not honest - the historical Soviet Union is not equal to the contemporary United States. With respect to education, the Soviet Union's education was highly centralized and run specifically by the government. In the United States, there is a strong mix of public/private concerns running the education system.What I think I'm saying is this: hyperbolic statements about all-powerful, unavoidable left wing indoctrination throughout the educational system are also dishonest.
@ Beta Conservative - "...make a little mischief along the way..."I can appreciate that, and I don't resist the chuckles when I read comments on this blog. I'll suggest that they payoff is a release valve, which is a pretty vital function.I can relate to the fear as well. But this great nation has been engaged in the pursuit of the balance between the rights of the collective and the rights of the individual for a long time, and I want to do what I can to continue that.I don't think that the people in this article are anything but fringe. If you're not talking about Todd Davies and the SSNW, who are you talking about?
Who's Revenant, Rob? Do I display on your screen as Revenant?Analogies by their nature are imperfect and you like nothing better than to cavil at a hair when you find one unflattering. It is perfectly obvious to me - should be to you and to these twits who are the subject - that no possible comparison can be drawn with any more sophistication than "they are both large." And yet, indoctrination takes many forms, is sometimes widespread or even omnipresent (take peer pressure), and can be resisted by some. Certainly the USSR had more of SOME resources available to program its people. But in terms of such subtleties as production values, we far exceed them - a lone Photoshop expert far exceeds any resources of the former Soviet Union - and so I don't think the comparison is ENTIRELY inapposite.I'm sure you will be making your own comparisons freely in areas where they flatter you or deprecate your opponents. And I'm also sure you will be called on it. So, I guess - Play ball!Just don't whine about it. There's no crying in baseball!
@Nichevo - My mistake, Revenant is just below your comment. Sorry about that. The difference between a centrally-run education system and a distributed one is certainly not a hair. Your analogy is beyond the ordinary level of imperfect. If you have perhaps set up for yourself, a bogeyman US government that explicitly condones a program of indoctrination, and enforces that program by locking up or disappearing dissidents, your analogy gains strength, but since that isn't the case, your overall argument weakens.But neither size, production values, or resources alone can make a program of indoctrination. Intent is also necessary. And even those don't make an effective program of indoctrination - for that you must have an effect.My argument is that enough people in the United States exit the education system without being indoctrinated in the way that Beta Conservative indicated. I'm unlikely to affirm your prediction about comparisons precisely because, as you point out, they are imperfect, and there are better ways to make a case.
AlphaLiberal said... Hey, Peter, you lying sack of shit. I don't "emulate the Taliban, Hugo Chavez, Iran, the Castros, etc."But you do like them? CONFESS!!! or I'll bring out the comfy chair!!! Go fuck yourself.DTL is unavailable?
Alpha's right--that one line shouldn't have stood alone. It should have been paired with this line:“Students are held to a very high standard in and outside the University,” Hudson said.
Rob,1. Fix your shirt collar.2. ...Oh screw it, you give me a headache. All right, let's walk back the cat.You implied that, since the usufructs of our Gramscian long march are somewhat equivocal of result, that the premise of indoctrination by these subverted institutions is thence negated.Well, nobody's perfect! Put another way, the race may not be to the swift, nor the battle to the strong - but that's the way to bet. Or, more immediately relevant, there were chinks in the armor even of Soviet social structures allowing light for some, air for others, escape for a few.It can hardly be denied that education intends to form the mind - in this sense "indoctrination" or "propaganda" is a mere value judgment. And I do believe it was American education we were facing off vs. the Reds en masse, not a straight up US-USSR comparison. So, your own allusion to the US as ogre is also fallacious. Analogies to individual repressive techniques used in academe could be pointed out readily enough.But I'm bored. Let's skip straight to your argument:My argument is that enough people in the United States exit the education system without being indoctrinated in the way that Beta Conservative indicated.Very well, define "enough."
@Nichevo - *fixes collar, nods at Nichevo*It's more than an implication, it's a direct statement, provided you'll grant the question of degree remains open.You compared the US to the USSR; I declared the comparison dishonest. I offered that you may have a bogeyman (and yes, belief in bogeymen is irrational). If you do not, then you do not, but that doesn't mean that I made a relevant comparison between the two.We agree that education, indoctrination, and propaganda are judgment calls. But to define enough, in a limited fashion:Enough: Despite SSNW's efforts, Condoleezza Rice seems to have returned to her position. Which is to say that any 'tyranny of the left' at Stanford has been ineffectual squawking.Enough: 46% of the voting population voted for the Republican candidate, and the breakdown by college grad/no college grad is similar. Which is to say in the most recent election alone, the opposition is significant, in spite of several years of alleged left wing indoctrination, which suggests that said indoctrination is either illusory or far from effective.So, while the US educational system may have the wherewithal to implement a system of left wing indoctrination, without central planning, there cannot be intent, and as we see, there hasn't been a significant effect.
So, while the US educational system may have the wherewithal to implement a system of left wing indoctrination, without central planning, there cannot be intent, and as we see, there hasn't been a significant effect.How does that follow at all? If, without indoctrination, 90% of the populace would have voted against Obama, but instead only 40%+ did, that would be a pretty significant effect, don't you agree?Just for starters. I won't even go into the foolish idea that "indoctrination" is subjective.
@Blake - If you'll take a look at the historical election figures, I think you'll see that there is no compelling trend toward liberal landslides, or even liberal victories, over the last 100 years. There are some spikes, sure, but there are some conservative ones as well. I'm looking at popular vote, by the way.I would agree with your assertion, if only it wasn't contradicted by this picture. I say that if there is a program of of left-wing indoctrination in the school system, then there must be an effect on the presidential elections.And if you won't go into it, I won't follow you.
No trend toward liberal victories over the past 100 years? And you support this by showing election results where liberals ran against other liberals?Last one I'm sure of was Reagan. Before that Goldwater. Before that, what, Coolidge? Maybe Eisenhower, if you overlook the fact that he had the best chance of reversing FDR's acts and didn't take it.Liberal indoctrination is so thorough, so-called conservatives have embraced the notion that not having the government reach into every part of our lives is somehow radical.In any event, political parties are volatile things. George Wallace was the (Democrat) conservative running in '68 when the massively liberal Nixon won.I know Nixon is a liberal bogeyman, even to this day featured as an arch-villain in Watchmen and "Futurama", but he started the EPA, opened relations with China and tried wage and price fixing, so if he was conservative, then conservative has no meaning--or the meaning it has is merely a mostly successful attempt to narrow our political choices to "totalitarian state run by hippies" vs. "totalitarian state run by non-hippies".
Conservative = bad, as Meg Greenfield noted when the media started referring to hard-line Soviet Communists as "conservative."
@Blake - You said you wouldn't get into the idea that "indoctrination" is subjective, but I think you've done just that. Or one of us is confused.When did the program of left wing indoctrination in the US school system begin? What is the difference between indoctrination and education, particularly in practice, from that time?Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be stating that the gradual leftward shift of the center of the political spectrum in the US is due to a system of left wing indoctrination in the schools.Please substantiate that.Further, with respect to the subjectivity of "education" and "indoctrination", will you allow the possibility that the definitions at times overlap?
Actually, no, I don't allow that there's any overlap between education and indoctrination; in fact, I hold the two to be diametrically opposed. It is the difference between observation and evaluation. It does not even matter if the evaluation is correct!I don't really have time to go into detail about how this happened but you can see this at Hector's place to get a sense of what was going on. This is the tail end of the effort (which has no survived the empire itself by over 15 years).It's not a small subject and universities are only part of it, but they're an important part.
@Blake -I understand now.Goodbye.
1) No, your collar is still f'ed up:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eeIIZTV-LXg/SWaKP53OHaI/AAAAAAAAAAM/4uDwy_M5wU8/S220-h/DSC_59318x10.jpgI could say something about your hair and pulling your finger out of the socket, but that could be perceived as jealousy seeing as you still have a fairly full head of it - you bastard! ;->2) Um, more later, I am in the middle of a busy workday. But I think you're using sophistry. I could also dip into Arkhipelag GULag and find examples of those who beat the system and say commie trick don't work...but like I said, ain't got all day right now. Let me just invite you to sharpen your pencil and IBB.
@Nichevo - Ha! Oh, it gets less and less each year.But while I sharpen my pencil, let's be clear: I'm saying that any purported program of indoctrination has been so ineffective as to be insignificant, and I think you're saying that of course a few people can beat the system of indoctrination. That seems to be the argument we're having, and those are not the same things. And I am ignorant: what is IBB?
Blogger Rob Prideaux said... @Nichevo - Ha! Oh, it gets less and less each year.Yeah, and you're forty and I started losing mine at twenty, so boo hoo to you too. Naw, enjoy it. But while I sharpen my pencil, let's be clear: I'm saying that any purported program of indoctrination has been so ineffective as to be insignificant, and I think you're saying that of course a few people can beat the system of indoctrination. That seems to be the argument we're having, and those are not the same things.You support what you're saying, above, by noting (anecdotal) cases of people not indoctrinated. I retort by saying that in fact, even in what I concede is a more effective system of indoctrination (the USSR), there were people not indoctrinated, and refer to anecdotes that memory fails me on reciting verbatim.So ISTM (it seems to me) that we are on point. No? And I am ignorant: what is IBB?No you're not, I believe I just made that one up: "I'll be back."
@Nichevo - But no, I noted one anecdotal (Rice has returned) and two statistical (election results 2008, election results past 100 years) supports.I do agree with you that in any large-scale system of indoctrination, certain individuals ought to be able to resist or escape. My argument has been that such a substantial portion of of individuals in the US have escaped or resisted that any system of indoctrination has been so ineffective as to be non-existent.And citing a hundred years of presidential elections which show no trend favoring liberal winners is what I offer as evidence.And I like ISTM better than IBB.
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