February 8, 2009

"You can have a roller coaster ride with a nice guy in a sweater."

Dita Von Teese.

64 comments:

Darcy said...

I enjoyed Dita's thoughts very much.

And here's to the sweet looking guys in sweaters!

Ann Althouse said...

Yeah, like.... ???? Mr. Rogers. Who else? Jimmy Carter... I'm trying to think of guys in sweaters... these antidotes to Marilyn Manson.

Darcy said...

Jimmy Connors looks pretty sweet in his little sweater vests lately, Althouse. Hee.

But seriously, a lot of guys look good in sweaters, in my opinion.

Henry Buck said...

Bill Cosby wore a lot of hideous sweaters in the 80's.

William said...

Heather Sweet, her real name, doesn't sound like a real name. It's not a porn name like Jugs Moonbeam, but it's not a real name. It sounds like a name that a movie studio would give a starlet hoping to fill the June Allyson niche.....I wonder if a name you choose for yourself is more indicative of your true identity than your birth name. Someone named Dita von Teese is not on the fast track to a happy marriage with a Mr Rogers type.

Michael McNeil said...

She just wants someone she can have a fun time with as a companion, but whom she'd never ever want to have sex with, regardless of how he feels — which is rather typical of the way “nice guys” are treated and regarded by many women.

EDH said...

No musicians? Not even “nerd musicians” singing Undone The Sweater Song?

Im me
Me be
Goddamn
I am
I can
Sing and
Hear me
Know me
If you want to destroy my sweater
Hold this thread as I walk away

Oh no
It go
It gone
Bye-bye
Who i
I think
I sink
And I die
(chorus) if you want to destroy my sweater
Hold this thread as I walk away
Watch me unravel Ill soon be naked
Lying on the floor, Ive come undone

(repeat chorus)

If you want to destroy my sweater
(I dont want to destroy your tank-top)
Hold this thread as I walk away
(lets be friends and just walk away)
Watch me unravel Ill soon be naked
(hate you see you lyin there in your superman skivvies)
Lying on the floor, Ive come undone

Christy said...

Ann, Ann, Ann, have you never spent much time at the ski slopes? Filled with fine looking physical men in sweaters!

ricpic said...

If Dita produced a million sperm cells a day she wouldn't have to wait for the chemistry to be juste right.

Trooper York said...

Typical of a Von Tease.

Ophir said...

So we men can't wear shorts when it's hot and we can't wear sweaters when it's cold.

Is there any item of clothing you approve of us wearing?

Jason (ditzy) said...

Is there any item of clothing you approve of us wearing?

I imagine myself asking that and someone handing me a paper bag.

Trooper York said...

You should wear your "Cohen I have not had sex with" t-shirt which is available at the shopping cart on Althouse.com.

XWL said...

I like the typo at the beginning of the article:

Dita Von Teese didn't "feel ready" to have sexy after her divorce from Marilyn Manson.

Sounds like she's really looking for a Czech swinger type,

Dita, would you like to have sexy with me right here in the laundromat?

(and Dita, if you're reading this, I like to wear sweaters from time to time, have never applied make up to my face, and don't know what it feels like to have leather covering my lower extremities, in other words, let's do lunch!)

Ann Althouse said...

@ophir I didn't make a rule against sweaters! I just said I had trouble thinking of guys in sweaters. And implicitly: I couldn't think of any sexually attractive men that are known for wearing sweaters. I think the Mr. Rogers and the Bill Cosby sweaters served the purpose -- quite intentionally -- of desexualizing the man. But these weren't just sweaters, they were aggressively unsexy sweaters.

Freeman Hunt said...

Von Teese sells herself short, I think. Not because of the sweaters.

OT: What is the deal with most women and musicians? If you date someone who plays the guitar, you'll probably have to listen to him play it a lot. Ugh.

John Lynch said...

There's what people say, and what they do.

I seriously doubt this woman will be dating any nice guys, and any sweaters will be worn by musicians or artists.

People live in habits and patterns. They don't change overnight, and a rich beautiful woman doesn't have to change her behavior.

Ophir said...

@ann
I just said I had trouble thinking of guys in sweaters. And implicitly: I couldn't think of any sexually attractive men that are known for wearing sweaters.

This is to help you think of sexually attractive men in sweaters.

I don't know whether all those count as sweaters though. Or sexually attractive men.

Trooper York said...

Why do you hate Chandler Bing?

RLB_IV said...

Personally I don't wear sweaters.
I wear suits. When I lived in Milwaukee, I wore 3 piece suits. Now that I live in San Diego, I wear 2 piece suits. When I go to the beach, I wear a one piece suit.

Psota said...

I never got anywhere with women wearing a sweater. But then, I bought a really cool Kangol hat...

Palladian said...

Beware the sweater! Remeber Wesley Clark's argyle sweater? Or Al Gore's sweater vests? Or Jimmy Carter's Cardigan? Remember that John McCain's campaign was undone by 'gay sweaters'!

George Grady said...

All I can say is, nice guys in sweaters....

Duck!

Ann Althouse said...

About McCain's "gay sweaters": "In the final days of his imploding candidacy, John McCain..."

Date on that article is July 2007.

So I guess the sweaters worked!

dbp said...

She sounds very sensible in the linked article.

I think by "guy in a sweater" she means a normal guy.

I have found that in the range of 10-40F a sweater under a lightweight jacket is as warm as a heavy Winter coat and more comfortable. Plus, you can take-off one of the layers if it gets warmer later in the day.

I won't wear aggressively ugly sweaters though.

blake said...

If you date someone who plays the guitar, you'll probably have to listen to him play it a lot. Ugh.

Hey!

That's not nice at all.

Hmmm. I don't own any sweaters. I have jackets, but there's only a few days in a year to wear them. So I have jackets that are many years old....

Ann Althouse said...

I just put on my warmest sweater.

Darcy said...

Oh, my...sweater and shorts combo.

(ignore the silly url!)

traditionalguy said...

Men wearing a sweater are in a uniform from which we have a first impression expecting them to be submissive to an authority, but they are the worker bees and not the order giver members in that system. So they do not threaten you much. A nice disguise for a James Bond or other scottish type. Jos A Bank has sweater vests of great color variety, like black, red, dark blue. And at night the heavy cashmere can't be beat for those who heat their bodies, more than heat their houses.Never judge a book/ man by its/his cover.

Jeff with one 'f' said...

Kurt Cobain
rocked the cardigan
pretty well!

Meade said...

I've been told some women find my green pants sexy. My cardigan, not so much.

Palladian said...

"About McCain's "gay sweaters": "In the final days of his imploding candidacy, John McCain..."

Date on that article is July 2007.

So I guess the sweaters worked!"

Weird. I guess Radar can see into the future.

"What is the deal with most women and musicians? If you date someone who plays the guitar, you'll probably have to listen to him play it a lot. Ugh."

Ugh is right.

Hey said...

I'm shocked that you don't think of sweaters as something an attractive man could wear. Living in Madison you'd think you'd see it done well, and with family from the Ann Arbor area one would expect you'd be more than familiar with preppy sweater wearing in winter.

It's not like you're living in California or something where people don't really need to wear warm clothes.

As to RLB - bullshit. Nothing better during fall and winter than a nice shirt, cashmere sweater, and a blazer for weekends, adding an overcoat as needed. Don't wear sweaters my ass.

The Federer sweater is nice, Ralph Lauren's various lines do a number of nice sweaters since it's a preppy mainstay. Loro Piana and Pal Zileri do quite a number of exceptional cashmere sweaters that are definitely not asexual or unthreatening.

Ann Althouse said...

Yeah, Federer in a sweater is hot. But, men, don't be thinking that sweater is hot. That would be a very sad misjudgment.

mc said...

As a male with a dry humor and a closet of moth eaten cashmere who never comments I wonder if this thread castrates males...

No good answer from a male here...

blake said...

Smokin' hot!

Freeman Hunt said...

I have written about guitar playing before:

Every man does not feel he should give a piano concert. Every man does not feel he should give a performance on the violin. Every man does not feel compelled to ask you to watch as he learns the drums. But every man who owns a guitar seems to feel oblidged to serenade the world the minute he learns the finger positions for E.

RLB_IV said...

Hey
I live in California, no sweaters for me...just personal taste. Reason:
they are too warm for me. I grew up in Miami and owned one sweater as a kid. As I recall, it was tan in color and had cowboys on it. When I went to U of Illinois I bought several and roasted to death whenever I went inside. I hardly ever wore them. There are other ways for me to keep warm....

jdeeripper said...

Palladian said...Beware the sweater! Remeber Wesley Clark's argyle sweater?

Argyle or plaid never works in anything.

Or Al Gore's sweater vests?

Vests = shoulder shorts. Dorky.

Or Jimmy Carter's Cardigan?

Nothing works on Jimmy Carter.

Remember that John McCain's campaign was undone by 'gay sweaters'!

The only cool sweaters are charcoal or black mock turtlenecks or zip mocks and sometimes full turtlenecks.

Here's a black turtleneck wearing maniac.

RLB_IV said...

The truth be told, I love sweaters
on a women ..such as

A poem then... ODE TO A SWEATER

In a cloud of blue tissue
the cardigan lay folded, asleep,
awaiting Christmas morning.
The beads around the neckline,
in artful pattern,
were like the lyrics of "The Snowy Breasted Pearl",
like a child's first teeth
beneath a pillow of wishes come true,
like a little girl's first necklace.
The sweater was the lightest embrace,
an arm around a shoulder,
pure enough for an angel,
yet a garment that the slinkiest star of the '40s
could well have worn with dark hair,
a satin gown and a red smile.
It could keep a woman warm
as she looked out the window at snow
remembering starry blue evenings
when he asked her to come for a walk,
and the music twinkling from open windows
receded into background.
On the back of a chair,
this sweater exhales
the finest whiff of perspiration:
lingering fragrance of things past
as life goes on.
By Ruth Latta

Ann Althouse said...

I have never before today thought ill of sweater-wearing.

Really, this is all quite absurd.

It seems to me the question is whether it's a nice sweater and the attitude of the sweater wearing. If the man is wearing the sweater as a way to say I'm non-threatening and thoroughly domesticated or I'm weak and chilly, then that's not attractive. But it's perfectly easy to imagine a good man in a fine sweater.

This is not the shorts issue, people. Don't get carried away.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Earnest looked pretty manly in his turtleneck

blake said...

Darn it.

Let me try that again. TV Acres doesn't like the direct image link.

Smokin' hot!

blake said...

Every man does not feel he should give a piano concert. Every man does not feel he should give a performance on the violin. Every man does not feel compelled to ask you to watch as he learns the drums. But every man who owns a guitar seems to feel oblidged to serenade the world the minute he learns the finger positions for E.

I can do some nice things with E.

As for belonging church, I believe "Silent Night" was composed on guitar.

So, like, there, man.

mc said...

It ends up not being funny if I point out that I used the word "thread", no?

blake said...

This is not the shorts issue, people. Don't get carried away.

Well, what fun is that?

theobromophile said...

She just wants someone she can have a fun time with as a companion, but whom she'd never ever want to have sex with, regardless of how he feels — which is rather typical of the way “nice guys” are treated and regarded by many women.

As opposed to how men treat nice girls, which is to only want to spend time with them in the hopes of screwing someone who doesn't have a disease?

While we're on this subject, what's with this modern idea that women are somehow obligated (morally or emotionally or whatever) to have sex with men?

mc said...

Wow. That whole sex thing is fairly prominent.

Did I point out the pun involving the term "thread"?

Michael McNeil said...

As opposed to how men treat nice girls, which is to only want to spend time with them in the hopes of screwing someone who doesn't have a disease?

So all men do this? LOL! What a joke! (Note that I said nothing about how all women behave, but your wording leaves no room for doubt with regard to all men.)

While we're on this subject, what's with this modern idea that women are somehow obligated (morally or emotionally or whatever) to have sex with men?

Women can have sex with a broomstick if they want, as far as I'm concerned. Nor did I say they were “obligated” to have sex with men — just don't endlessly lead on a “nice guy” who might have puppy-dog eyes for a girl, when you never really intend to have a relationship with him.

Meade said...

But why would he want to have a relationship with her? Think of all the work involved in that. Realistically, he probably just wants to have sex with her.

William said...

Do sweatshirts count as sweaters. I think every man alive should wear a sweatshirt. If you're too skinny it gives a you some heft; if you're carrying a little extra, it hides it....Women, down to the decimal point, know what's sexy on themselves. I don't have a clue as to what would look sexy on me. (I've been told that a platinum card makes a nice accessory.) I don't even want to have a clue. I just want to wear sweatshirts and jeans. (It could be worse: I could like wifebeater tees and gold chains)....Heather Sweet wants to settle down with Jimmy Stewart in a cardigan. Dita von Teese wants to taunt rock stars with her sexuality and leave them broken and frustrated. See the problem. She has a bifurcated personality and each half is subversive of the other. I recommend Dita go on coke binges with the Jimmy Stewarts and Heather bake apple pies for the Marilyn Mansons.

Freeman Hunt said...

Always this mantra that girls don't like nice guys. Not true. Know plenty of highly in demand very nice guys. The mantra just uses "nice guy" as a euphemism for "doormat" or "weird." And no, not many women in the market for one of those.

But don't think I'm down on men. I'm an equal opportunity dating analysis criticizer. Don't get me started on the false assumptions shared by many women about men.

Paul Snively said...

Darcy: I enjoyed Dita's thoughts very much.

So did I. Interestingly, I've always found women who've been voluptuous and identified with the world of burlesque/40s pinups more interesting,to say nothing of sexier, than the neurotic, skinny gym rats.

Darcy: And here's to the sweet looking guys in sweaters!

Speaking as a native Hoosier: why, thank you!

Freeman Hunt: Don't get me started on the false assumptions shared by many women about men.

Um... why not?

Darcy said...

My pleasure, Paul Snively!

Ann Althouse said...

About the nice guys meme: Isn't part of the confusion caused by the fact that when women break up with guys they smooth over it by saying "you're a nice guy." That's a meaningless lie. "Nice" is a cover for a failing. What is that failing? Maybe you are boring, dumb, or unsexy. You are not going to get more women in the future by wallowing in the illusion that you are too nice and women are terrible. Women are what they are. Put your energy into figuring out what that is. I see William said he doesn't know what's sexy and he doesn't want to know. I realize he was just talking about clothes, but I think you ought to see a problem there. If you are that "nice guy" in a big baggy sweatshirt that makes your body (you think) invisible and she breaks up with you, maybe it wasn't that she doesn't appreciate nice guys. Maybe she wasn't sexually attracted to you. You should care.

traditionalguy said...

Women are what they are, for sure. And male street walkers, dressed to kill, will get their chance to talk to most of the available lovelies. But until the sharp dressed man talks each new woman into a continuing conversation, he gets nowhere past the roller coaster ride. So that man's real world problem is how many such women can this master chef be cooking up something with at the same time? Granted that the Jimmy Stewart's are limited by their care about the one they're with. While the James bond's just nail fun time girls and seldom wonder what was left behind them. In the end, each gets their own preferred type of relationships.Oh, what are you doing Saturday night?

Tibore said...

Going back to the other part of the subject - Ms. Von Teese herself: Doesn't anyone find it sad that, in lieu of telling confidants/close friends the thoughts she articulated in the article, she chose to share it with the world? I mean, I understand her whole identity is exhibitionism, but still... it's as if she doesn't care for the concept of what's private. We're in the age where the Paris Hiltons and Dita Von Teeses redefine celebrity as not merely being well known, but sharing the most personal thoughts with the rest of the populace, whether they care to hear them or not. That sort of indicates a measure of loneliness and isolation, to where she feels the need to tell anyone what most other people with functioning friendships only reveal to people they know personally and well. What happened to the concept of privacy? And while we're at it, what happened to the concept of dignity, which in part relies on the idea that some things are merely the province of the individual and a select few, not an open poster to the world? Being an absolutely open book is to be as flat as the page you're written on, and at that point, celebrity crosses the line from being merely shallow to being utterly 2 dimensional. Celebrities need to keep something in reserve; otherwise, they're allowing themselves to be defined not by what's within, but completely, 100% by what the public's judgement - often built on single-second microglimpses - paints them to be. And at that point, they have no other point but existence for others. That's well beyond being a willing servant of the public's desire for entertainment; in that, you're accepting a social role. In what I'm getting at, you're ceasing to exist as anything other than a reflection of everyone else thinks you should be. And that's a damn empty way to live.

Yes, I know this is Dita Von Teese we're talking about. Yes, I know her whole identity is around revealing her all. That's my point: From being a celebrity for revealing her physical all, she's extending that celebrity now by revealing her innermost all? And no one finds this to be even just a touch pathetic?

jdeeripper said...

Blogger Tibore said...Going back to the other part of the subject - Ms. Von Teese herself: Doesn't anyone find it sad that, in lieu of telling confidants/close friends the thoughts she articulated in the article, she chose to share it with the world? I mean, I understand her whole identity is exhibitionism, but still...

I have a never fail truth about women - Any woman willing to roll around mostly naked inside a giant martini glass on stage in front of hundreds of people is not a woman you should assume will keep her feelings and personal experiences private.

Just a rule of thumb I use.

William said...

Tibore has a thoughtful post, and jdeeripper has a witty topper. But enough about them; more about me....I have always wondered why, despite a flourishing career as a Calvin Klein underwear model, I get laid so infrequently. Reading the Althouse comments has finally brought the truth home to me. It's because I wear sweatshirts....I suppose subconsciously I always knew the truth. Perhaps I wear sweatshirts to mask the sexual magnetism I exude. I have always felt uncomfortable with those lascivious, objectifying looks that women give me. There's an appropriate time for sex, and a time for all the rest of life. Perhaps I wear the bulky sweatshirt to filter out the background static of random sexuality and get on with my life.....At any rate thanks for the tip. I will continue to wear sweatshirts, but now it will be an informed choice.

Freeman Hunt said...

About the nice guys meme: Isn't part of the confusion caused by the fact that when women break up with guys they smooth over it by saying "you're a nice guy."

That's a good point.

Another thing that "nice guy" is a euphemism for is "coward." Very often there will be some guy complaining that some particular girl must not like nice guys because she didn't go out with him; then you find out that he never actually asked her out and seemed to believe that a romantic relationship would spring up spontaneously with no risk on his part.

Tibore said...

"William said...
I have always wondered why, despite a flourishing career as a Calvin Klein underwear model, I get laid so infrequently. Reading the Althouse comments has finally brought the truth home to me. It's because I wear sweatshirts...

At any rate thanks for the tip. I will continue to wear sweatshirts, but now it will be an informed choice."


LMAO!

Well, I guess my own sweater-cladding today is also an informed choice: I need to hide my overt sexuality. ;)

Of course, the data on the number of chicks breaking down my door somewhat contradicts this conclusion... but hey, any port (excuse) in a storm (in life)!

Say what? Cognitive dissonance? Me?? No, I think the lack of lovelife is in fact well due to the sweaters... well, it's because Althouse says so! Huh? Whaddaya mean "What about summer?"... So whaddabout it?... "QED"? Stop that! I'm embracing the sartorial choice here!

Freeman Hunt said...

Another facet of the false "nice guys don't get dates" meme:

Oftentimes a guy will attempt to gain access to a woman through friendship that he could never gain access to romantically. Then when he attempts to change the nature of the relationship and fails, he claims that the woman "must not like nice guys." The truth is that most everyone has all sorts of friends they would never even consider dating. This sort will also often claim that he was led on by the girl when the truth is that she was friends with him, and he presented himself as seeking friendship.

Darcy said...

OT, but I wonder why some people don't publish their profiles or provide e-mail addys. I'd love to write to a few people here, and there's no way to do it.

dbp said...

FH, "Oftentimes a guy will attempt to gain access to a woman through friendship that he could never gain access to romantically."

I don't know about the "ofentimes" part, but I am sure this is the strategy of some guys. From what I have seen, the kind of guy who would do that is the sort who is bold enough to ask any woman out--even, or maybe especially, if she is out of his league.

The kind of guys who want to 'get to know you and be friends' before opening a romantic relationship, are the kind of guys who think it is the right (and nice) way to do it.