August 6, 2008

Discuss.



ADDED: Uncle Jimbo makes the comparison:
Atta - Islamist extremist member of a death cult dedicated to the murder of as many people who disagree with their religious views as possible. Ringleader of plot to fly loaded airliners into the twin towers, White House and the Capitol building. Succeeded in killing almost 3,000 people.

Motivation - A far too common interpretation of Islam and a desire to put the entire world under the totalitarian, iron sandal of Sharia law.

Ivins - A pitiful nerd scientist obsessed with a sorority whose member had (quite obviously correctly) spurned his advances. Mentally unstable, increasingly more deranged, begins mailing packages and letters under assumed names. Eventually goes all the way around the bend and sends anthrax to a number of places killing five.

Motivation - He's a freakin' nuttah, who eventually snapped and indulged his mania and his need for employment by creating a domestic terror incident.
The idea is that they are completely different. I agree that they are different, but I wanted to move you to examine yourself. Many of us look at that picture of Mohammad Atta and think we can see evil. That is one of the most loathsome photographs in history. And then there's Ivins, smiling, nerdy, twinkly... we'd never pick out that face as a terrorist. We need to become skeptical of our own ability to see evil in a photograph.

84 comments:

Host with the Most said...

Why would you equate "Hairspray" movie director John Waters with an Arab terrorist?

Trooper York said...

Because most people would rather be suicide bombers than live in Baltimore?

bleeper said...

The oppressive culture of Frederick, Maryland, combined with the regimented life and limited options found at Fort Detrick are enough to cause a poor downtrodden scientist to act out against his perceived enemies.

No wonder they hate us...

Windbag said...

Shooting black and white instead of color can have a striking effect. In this case, the additional blurring contributes to a 1940s sorta jazzy feel. I can just imagine the dapper chap leading a sweet lady in a strapless gown across the dance floor.

The color photo (is there subtle racism in juxtaposing a "white" guy in a black and white photo next to a "person of color" in a colored photo? hmmm) simply looks like a bad passport photo or something.

Can we get extra credit if we are able to introduce the Reformation or existentialism into this discussion?

bleeper said...

A "colored" photo? It's probably "thin", too, right?

rhhardin said...

Wm. Kerrigan:

``Not long ago thrillers and murder mysteries were mostly about criminals with distinct motives. Now they feature the serial killer. Unlike the murderer who killed, fulfilled his purpose, and hoped to remain innocuous, the inexorable serial killer with his open-ended string of crimes hopes to become famous as a source of anxiety. News broadcasts, themselves great organizers of anxiety, regularly contain health segments in which the public is invited to become anxious about what it eats, what it buys, how it seeks pleasure. One set of experts steps forth to inculcate anxiety, another to teach us how to live with it. What do those in the know actually know? They always claim to know where our true concerns should lie. ''

Trooper York said...

"The oppressive culture of Frederick, Maryland, combined with the regimented life and limited options found at Fort Detrick are enough to cause a poor downtrodden scientist to act out against his perceived enemies."

Wait a minute, are you Dr. Bruce Banner?

Ann Althouse said...

Atta decolorized to remove the effect of color (which you can view here if you want.

Trooper York said...

If Mort were awake he would tell you that was racist.

bleeper said...

Bwah haaa haaa!

No, wait, I meant, HULK MAD!!!

But to say more would risk a visit from the authorities, and I never wish to come to their attention.

Ann Althouse said...

And I've sharpened up the photo of Bruce Ivins.

bleeper said...

You've made him look real "fat" now.

Trooper York said...

I just glad this wasn't another one of those blogging heads fiascos.

Thank you Jesus.

Christy said...

I'm not convinced.

How did he ever pass his psych evaluation?

David said...

Discuss.
Ting.

veni vidi vici said...

Gotta love Atta's "deadeye". What true douchebags these two fellas look like. Hell, they'd make a nice couple.

However, in response to the question intimated by this post, I suppose this will be used by some to "prove" that terrorism is in fact a law enforcement problem.

somefeller said...

Who are people who have never been in my kitchen?

somefeller said...

However, in response to the question intimated by this post, I suppose this will be used by some to "prove" that terrorism is in fact a law enforcement problem.

In some cases terrorism is primarily a law enforcement problem, while in others it is primarily a military problem. On a large scale, it's both, and the key is to figure out the proportions so you can respond properly. Sometimes you need a screwdriver to fix something, while other times you need a bulldozer.

Awesome said...

"I'm a little dream-self, short and stout.
I'm the other half of Bruce — when he lets me out.
When I get all steamed up, I don't pout.
I push Bruce aside, then I'm free to run about."

Yikes! Is that the other Bruce behind him in the photo?

Awesome said...

Oh. Source of that:


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93351121

Palladian said...

Hmm...

rcocean said...

Man on the left = wears shorts

Man on the Right = wears long pants and when called for, spats and a Top hat.

I like the man on the right, what a great smile. The guy on the left needs to lighten up. Don't be such a gloomy gus - Mr. Killer!

FairestWitness said...

Quite a graphic parallel you've drawn between Mohammed Atta and Bruce Ivins, Ann. What is a terrorist but a coward who indiscriminately kills free, innocent, unsuspecting people. I agree with your implication; there is no difference between the two killers... they're both inhuman, cruel mass murderers.

Chip Ahoy said...

Bruce Ivins thought his vaccination program might be discontinued

Mohamed Atta feared his religion might be obsoleted.

They're both bad boys who lashed out in an outrageous way to prove something. The United States was the end of them both and I'm glad they're dead.

*does the Glad Your Dead dance *

You take better pictures than these.

Unrelated to terrorism, they're sounding the tornado sirens outside. Which is actually easier on the ears than the fire alarms inside. If my garden gets torn up I'm going to be really pissed off.

Unrelated to tornados, I got back my MacBook. It's had a 300G HD enhancement for increased splendiforiyness , a new keyboard because the old one was getting a bit sticky, and a new face plate just for good measure and because I was on a roll. Now I don't have to use Toshiba with Windows XP anymore, and that's a great relief. Oi, what an obnoxious laptop and program that is. A group of people were speaking German in the Mac shop and I felt like saying, HEY, THIS IS AMERICA !!!! SO SPEAK AMERICAN !!!" But I didn't because that ran counter to my chief objective of getting back my Mac and it was an otherwise serene environment.

PatCA said...

Actually, Jenna Bush did it while she was attending college and the bars near the college, in a margarita-fueled frenzy during one finals week. Papa and his FBI went into mad coverup mode, and...the Ivins Conspiracy was born.

rhhardin said...

Terrorism relies, chiefly, on the venality of the news media.

It's probably the single industry that makes a business of putting profits ahead of lives.

The more lives lost, the better the audience. The better the audience, the better the terrorism.

The legal system seems to have missed this one. No deep pockets, probably.

Cedarford said...

fairestwitness - I agree with your implication; there is no difference between the two killers... they're both inhuman, cruel mass murderers.

I'd agree with you if I hadn't read a thing about either case and also didn't know what I was talking about. Ivins appeared to be playing a twisted game to "scare" Americans into the great threat that WMD were. He did not seek mass deaths which he could have gotten by scattering his product in an airport or sports event and issued no warning.

Each of his letters contained a warning that they had anthrax, people were exposed and needed to take antibiotics or be vaccinated to save their lives. The dude was brilliant, but deranged, losing control of containing the lethal threat because he neglected some amount escaping the envelopes in the US Postal system.

Atta, on the other hand, was a deliberate mass murderer, signing on to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's unlawful combatant team for 9/11. He set out to kill lots of people, and did.

=================
Now, fortunately, the anthrax case appears to be closed...and in the long term, maybe Ivins did a twisted amount of good by jarring Washingtn DC out of just talking about how a 5-lb sugar sack sized batch of anthrax could wipe out a city to taking the threat, strategic deterrence, and response counters of biowar seriously..

With Atta, we could do more. This was an effeminant guy who was repulsed by women and who went into Jihad because of his shortcomings as a man. Such a creature is despised in Arab tribal culture - and it does terrorism no good to have some of it's cherished Shaheeds smoked out as girly men who failed as suitable marriage material, jobless losers who failed in life - and who then acted out violently as insecure nobodies and killed innocent people, even fellow Muslims in a twisted way to address their shortcomings...

veni vidi vici said...

Any relation to Molly?


somefeller, I couldn't have said it better myself. My beef (like yours, it sounds like) is with those who think it's all one way or another.

Revenant said...

One estimate put the potential windfall in the tens of thousands of dollars.

That just doesn't seem like a credible reason to mail anthrax to a bunch of people. Then again, the guy was mentally unbalanced so maybe he didn't need a particularly good reason.

FairestWitness said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Richard said...

Easy. There was only one Ivin where Ivin came from. There are tens of thousands more Atta's where Atta came from.

Revenant said...

It seems like large numbers of comments are disappearing from past posts here. Anyone else notice that or is it just me?

Ann Althouse said...

Blogger had a scheduled outage tonight. Just repost if something you put up was lost.

Ann Althouse said...

But I did delete a couple things. Fairestwitness, I don't want the whole text of articles cut and pasted here. Please describe them, link to them, or stick to short quotes.

FairestWitness said...

Sorry. I will refrain from posting articles in future. Please accept my apology.

The Exalted said...

cedarford's paean to domestic terrorism brings tears to my eyes -- too bad it was already covered in Live Free or Die Hard

losergrrl said...

Tweedledum, meet Tweedledee, Cedarford notwithstanding.

losergrrl said...

Speaking of Cedarford, I think he may have found the perfect dating service, recommended by Shmily, above.

mcg said...

Well the relationship is clear. Not only are they both terrorists, but Mr. Ivins is the first of Mohammed Atta's promised 72 ass virgins.

Of course, Mr. Atta didn't realize that the Arabic term for "ass" had been accidentally dropped from Koranic transcripts about 50 years after their first transcripton.

vbspurs said...

What a coincidence. I've been reading a lot about Mohammed Atta in the past few days, out of sheer curiosity.

He shares some eerie personal characteristics with Sayyid Qutb. Despite the latter was a peasant and happy to be educated, whereas Atta came from a distinguished family, they both had horrible experiences dealing with foreign travel, and modernity. Instead of broadening their perspectives, it made them absolutely embittered, to the point of hatred.

They were also asexual men, deeply fearful of women and sexuality in general. It's possible both died virgins.

Which probably made it awkward for their respective 72 virgins each, after dying as martyrs.

There's nothing so messy as two virgins in bed.

Cheers,
Victoria

Palladian said...

"There's nothing so messy as two virgins in bed."

How about two virgins atop the breakfast bar at a Bob's Big Boy?

vbspurs said...


How about two virgins atop the breakfast bar at a Bob's Big Boy?


I can't speak with experience (sadly), but I would imagine the grits get up in all kinds of places.

In fact, I think that's how KISS MA GRITS! came into being.

Cheers,
Victoria

Jeff with one 'f' said...

domestic = crime

foreign = war

Cedarford said...

THe Exhaled - cedarford's paean to domestic terrorism brings tears to my eyes -- too bad it was already covered in Live Free or Die Hard

There are degrees of domestic terrorism, ranging from those with a targeted ideology that seek to minimize lives lost from their violent struggle (Mandela, the IRA, Earth First) to gleeful mass murderers like certain death squads in Iraq, Brazil, El Salvador, Rwanda, Sudan...
If you cannot distinguish between the two, that's your problem.

It doesn't get Ivins off the hook in the least, as he betrayed the public safety and cost us billions of dollars as well as 5 lives he apparantly set out not to take as he "warned us". He also betrayed the nation and the great responsibility he had to serve safely and well as a weapons scientist that took an oath to defend the American People. No matter. If he hadn't taken his suicide meds, he would have (if you believe the evidence) been tried, convicted, and eventually put down like a dog. He merits nothing but contempt...but on a scale of evil and depravity would rank down from worse monsters who committed a far greater moral breach. Like the BTK killer, Gacy, Pol Pot, KSM.

Atta and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed are at a whole different level of malignacy.

Which is why the law, history, and society's moral standards make an effort to distinguish "levels" by which we condemn and punish society's enemies.

And should do more to humiliate the worst. Rather than use media to boost the worst up as powerful monsters who "must be understood"- like we do with the Attas and Bundys and Seung-Hui Chos - they should be belittled and mocked as great losers and weaklings.

If we had been smart we would have tied Atta terrorism and repressed homosexuality all together and put the fear in wannabe Attas who don suicide garb that fellow tribesman and countrymen would remember them as weak, effeminant, loathsome little creatures who tried redeeming their sorry lives in illegitimate Jihad.
We should have had millions spent in Egypt and KSA on strategic communications on just how radical Islamist leaders use such contemptable creatures to give up their miserable lives. If Arabs, in particular, stop seeing people like Atta as martyrs and more as homosexual rejects, criminal bums - it makes recruiting suicide combatants even tougher. Rather than martyr videos, maybe we should post videos of broken terrorists crying like bitches as a lesson for young men taught to admire them as brave warriors...

=============
losergrrl said...
Speaking of Cedarford, I think he may have found the perfect dating service, recommended by Shmily, above.


I'm not the career-minded losergrrl with a near-end marriagable shelf life, tucking her two cats in for the night. Just talking about "dating services" puts you age-wise possibly past any useful shelf life.
My wife is convinced that one thing that keeps us together is how much either of us would hate regurgitated courtship rituals with someone else. She's got a point.

chuck b. said...

The laboratory culture where he worked must be very different than any of the labs I've worked in over the years.

Yeah, i'm blaming society.

Ah, was he a laboratory loner?

Seriously tho', insofar as the kinds of thoughts one might entertain in the back of the head, working around this material, handling it daily, securing it. It's just inconscionable for even a small amount of anything to get out from a safety room without detection. Even much less dangerous substances are regulated in an environment where bad actors risk federal arrest and imprisonment.

The laboratory deserves serious legal scrutiny. Much less would get you shitcanned in California, I can say that for sure.

The research group I'm in now has BSL-1 and 2 rooms, and it's all about keeping the doors shut, and locked and everything clean.

I damn sure can't figure out how it took the cops so long to finger him when he's one of a few people worldwide really handling the good stuff. Some married woman gets killed, and everyone suspects the husband. That's just reasonable.

Focus, people!


Now, weren't there also some unresolved trainwrecks in the southwest deserts shortly after 9/11?

bleeper said...

Cedarford has a good point - Ivins was brilliant but deranged. USAMRIID attracts brilliant people - read "Hot Zone" for some insight into that place. Some of them are unbalanced, and among the unbalanced ones, Ivins stands out as especially twisted.

With muslims it's hard to tell if they are nutjobs or just being dutiful muslims - take the assclown who ran over 8 students at UNC - he is in a funny farm somewhere, but was he demented and muslim, a good muslim with some wires crossed or just a good muslim?

Meade said...

More domestic terrorist murderers in black and white, some smiling, others not. None, presumably, suicides.

Armstrong continues to reside in Madison and operates a juice cart on the library mall called Loose Juice just four blocks from Sterling Hall.

Robert Fassnacht was a 33-year-old post-doctoral researcher at the University of Wisconsin–Madison. On the night and early morning of August 23/24, 1970, he had gone to the lab to finish up work before leaving on a family vacation. He was involved in research in the field of super conductivity, which had potential applications to everything from power distribution to high-speed trains. At the time of the explosion, Fassnacht was in his lab located in the basement level of Sterling Hall. He was in the process of monitoring an experiment when the explosion occurred. Rescuers found him face down in about a foot of water.
He was survived by his wife, Stephanie, and their three children, a three-year-old son, Christopher, and twin one-year-old daughters, Heidi and Karin.

bleeper said...

Which Armstrong?

What happened to the others?

Trumpit said...

You might add a snapshot of the Unibomber to the side-by-side. What has killed more people in history: science or religion? The answer in the past has been religion hands down. The weaponry developed by scientists, inventors & engineers has become ever more deadly resulting in the mass deaths of civil wars, WWI, WWII, etc. The invention of atomic weapons puts all life on the planet at constant risk of destruction. The combination of WMD and religious fanatics is the worst of both worlds. That is why Israel will probably bomb the shit out Iran to stop the goddamn mullahs from getting the bomb. Good luck to the Israelis, but I predict a nuclear holocaust is inevitable if past history of wars in the name of religion is any guide at all. You'll be able to blame a combination of amoral science and immoral religion, and capitalistic greed for the coming fiasco. Pacifistic Ghandiism and Buddhism have failed to attract enough worldwide adherents to make world peace a real possibility.

bleeper said...

The Amish won't fight. They are protected by our larger society.

Gandhi knew his opponent, the English, would eventually relent. He also knew that if he was up against the Germans then his quest for freedom would have failed.

Tibetans are pacifistic - how'd that work out for them? Not well - the Chinese destroyed them.

My point is pacifism does not work. War is the natural state of humans. If you win a war you can have peace for a while, then you must fight again.

As for "past history", what other kind is there, outside of science fiction?

George said...

The real giveaway was when Ivins said his favorite movie was "Twelve Monkeys."

Remember all those flying instructors saying things like..."Hmmm, it seemed odd that he wasn't interested in learning how to land the plane."

Hello! Wake up!

Trumpit said...

yes, I should have said "past events" events, not past history. Have you nothing better to do than troll around here? You've offered less insight into my science fiction nightmare turned true reality than I have. You've said nothing really. Don't like my "true reality" either, I suppose. Are you Simon incognito? Maybe you're the real anthrax killer, maybe Simon is. Go turn yourself in to the FBI, Bleeper. Are you one of the 7 dwarves or one of Santa's reindeer?

bleeper said...

Whoa - looks like Trumpit has skin thinner than Obama. Settle down big fella, you are the champion of all commenters. You are never wrong, never make a mistake, and past history is our lord and master.

Now back to reading your science fiction - it's all real, you know... and you are a god there. A GOD, do you hear?

losergrrl said...

Ah, I've gotten Cedarford going!

My point wasn't the utility of the dating service, but the ethnicity behind it.

We aren't THAT obtuse, are we?

knox said...

Palladian, gee, thanks for that. Only "Bob" of Twin Peaks creeps me out more.

X said...

that's fascinating meade. an unrepentant terrorist murderer that murdered on that campus is allowed on that campus?

peter hoh said...

Yon Cassius has a lean and hungry look. He thinks too much. Such men are dangerous.

Bissage said...

Both Mohamed Atta and Bruce Ivins were wildly infatuated with Pamela Anderson.

And both loved the Colonel’s secret blend of eleven herbs and spices.

Both were torn between two lovers, feeling like a fool. Loving them both was breaking all the rules.

Crimso said...

"As for "past history", what other kind is there, outside of science fiction?"

Have you seen the kinds of programs running on The History Channel in recent years?

"Only "Bob" of Twin Peaks creeps me out more."

"He is Bob, eager for fun. When he wears a smile, everybody run."

Hoosier Daddy said...

What has killed more people in history: science or religion? The answer in the past has been religion hands down.

Well ideology trumps religion when it comes to the overall body count. Communism alone stacked up somewhere in the ballpark of 100 million corpses and that’s just in the 20th century. You’d be hard pressed to even come close to that kind of figure for religion even if you went back to the Siege of Jericho.

Henry said...

Trumpit -- you put forward a false dichotomoy.

Especially since the answer to your question is disease.

Which is a kind of lack of science.

Spread Eagle said...

What has killed more people in history: science or religion? The answer in the past has been religion hands down.

Not so fast, Seabiscuit. If you want to talk causation, and "killed" in the context you are using it, by physical trauma, it's clearly science hands down. The evolution of weaponry from blunt objects to spears to bows and arrows to firearms to bombs, missiles, and nukes, has all been by science. The motivation to use the weapons may have sometimes been in some manner rooted in religion, but by no mean always, nor even usually.

LarsPorsena said...

Trumpit:
What has killed more people in history: science or religion? The answer in the past has been religion hands down.

Please try to remember that Marxism was (and still is on college campi coast to coast)'scientific'.

Google 'scientific Marxism' and see the results.

Freder Frederson said...

You’d be hard pressed to even come close to that kind of figure for religion even if you went back to the Siege of Jericho.

Actually, raw numbers (and basing your numbers are probably inflated-- The Black Book of Communism is extremely biased and seriously overstates deaths attributable to communism) is unfair for comparison. Non-communists killed just as many people in the twentieth century as the the communists (heck, in four years Hitler probably killed as many non-combatant citizens of the USSR as the communists managed in 75). The total for the two world wars alone was in excess of 70 million.

The Thirty Years' War lowered the population of the German States by about 30%. The Crusades--wars of religion by any measure, were marked by the slaughter of entire cities by both Christian and Muslim armies.

Henry said...

Freder's right. On a percentage basis, the wars of the 20th century are actually an improvement over wars of the past.

But still Trumpit's question puts forward a false dichotomy. Religion is a motivating factor. Science is a tool. They don't compare.

And disease and famine have always killed far more people than war (though war provides a venue for both).

Pogo said...

Juxtaposing the two pictures suggest to me "false moral equivalence".

Ivins, clearly a nutball, killed five people for the usual pedestrian nutball reasons, not for any ideology or anti-US sentiment.

Atta belongs to a death cult, one that has resulted in repeated iterations of this same kamikaze attack across the world for the last 40 years. Islam-based jihadism.

If we cannot even name the enemy, or refuse to recognize him, we cannot win. As usual, however, the left turns away, changes the subject, or blames the US.

What happened to the German Ghandi? Dead.
What happened to the Soviet Ghandi? Dead.
What happened to the Iranian, NoKo, Cambodian, Cuban, and Zimbabwaean Ghandis?
All anonymous dead.

I'm sensing a theme.

Freder Frederson said...

What happened to the German Ghandi? Dead.

What exactly is your point Pogo? Do you know what happened to the Indian Ghandi?

bleeper said...

"Do you know what happened to the Indian Ghandi?"

He's dead, too. But he spelled it Gandhi.

Henry said...

Something's been bugging me about the juxtaposition. Atta is a fundamentally different kind of monster than Ivins.

A better comparison would be John Muhammad and Ivins.

Aligning these two would give the photographic lie of mug shot vs. candid even more clarity.

Pogo said...

"Do you know what happened to the Indian Ghandi?
He's dead, too."

He wasn't killed by the British government he protested against, but by his own people.

The point is that Gandhi's success relied on the inherent goodness of those evil Western imperialists. Other ideologies lack that restraint.

And jihadists lack that restraint as well.
The picture here suggests equivalence where there is none.

"But he spelled it Gandhi."
Ghaa!.

bleeper said...

"Ghaa!." Ndeeeeee!!!

Pogo, I agree. But I answered Freder's question, as he didn't seem to know.

Oh Bah Mah! Rinse, repeat.

William said...

An obvious nut job wanted to spread the word that a 5 lb bag of anthrax could kill an entire city. What button would you have to push to make this madman cross another line and actually kill an entire city? This discussion is based on the sanguine hope that no such button exists.

Outis said...

Because most people would rather be suicide bombers than live in Baltimore?

If you'd ever lived in Baltimore you'd know why....

Hoosier Daddy said...

Actually, raw numbers (and basing your numbers are probably inflated-- The Black Book of Communism is extremely biased and seriously overstates deaths attributable to communism) is unfair for comparison.

Freder have you ever considered changing your nickname to Walter Duranty?

Non-communists killed just as many people in the twentieth century as the the communists (heck, in four years Hitler probably killed as many non-combatant citizens of the USSR as the communists managed in 75).

Probably? How about not likely. There were an estimated 6-8 million killed in the Russian Civil War alone. Conservative estimates figure another 10-15 million when Stalin came into power with collectivisation and the purges in the 1930s.

Middle Class Guy said...

Trumpit said...


Another inane rant.

Trumpit said...

How horribly is your emphysema doing, Middle (LOW) Class Guy? Medical science will be useless to help you. You brought it on yourself by your years of smoking addiction. You are worse than Marion Berry, a former well-known mayor, and crack addict. You are the kind that supports Big Tobacco instead of your local food bank. You blow second-hand smoke into hunger schoolchildren. You are worse than George Bush; he chokes on pretzels, you make others choke on your cancer-causing smoke. You are totally revolting and nasty. Can you die in a more speedy fashion to get it over with already? Why are you here (on planet Earth) to begin with. There is no point to your existence. You are nothing but a pollutant - a life defiling greenhouse gas run amok.

bleeper said...

Armpit wrote:

"hunger schoolchildren."

Heh!

Trumpit said...

You're from total hunger, broken Beeper. You are obsolete; get a cell phone instead. Stop correcting my typos our I'll have you redacted out of decent society into the zoo where you belong with the other apes and monkeys. Can you spell L-O-S-E-R! Have a peanut.

bleeper said...

Oh my, the pit has resorted to monkey references. I stand in awe of your logic and the power of your name calling.

Ok, I shall let your typos stand. They shall stand for all time, showing forever the greatness of your mind.

All Hail The King of Typos! His Unhinged Might Shall Remain Unchallenged!

But before I go, you wrote:

"Can you spell L-O-S-E-R!"

That should have ended with a "?"

Easy, isn't it? Fish, meet barrel.

Middle Class Guy said...

Trumpit blew smoke..

blah, blah, blah, blah.

You, sir, madam, or anything in between, are nothing more than a total waste of oxygen. A living, breathing example of why we need post natal abortions.

Freder Frederson said...

How about not likely. There were an estimated 6-8 million killed in the Russian Civil War alone. Conservative estimates figure another 10-15 million when Stalin came into power with collectivisation and the purges in the 1930s.

At least 25 million (of which 11 million were military) Russians died in WWII. And that estimate is on the now is accepted as the minimum. The true toll will never be known. The number of persons executed (just executed) by the Germans in Eastern Europe between 1941 and 1945 almost certainly exceeds 12 million (the majority of the Jews killed by the Nazis were from eastern Europe. Only about one million of the 6 million Soviet soldiers captured by the Axis survived the war.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Freder, my original point was that ideology, specifically communism killed far more people than religious wars have. If you want to assume the Duranty mantle that Hitler and National Socialism was worse than Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, knock yourself out.

Freder Frederson said...

If you want to assume the Duranty mantle that Hitler and National Socialism was worse than Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, knock yourself out.

I will not make the claim that anyone was worse than Pol Pot (and you might want to check who finally deposed the Khmer Rouge--when the west couldn't be bothered--before you lump all communists together). But as for the rest, yes the Nazis were much worse--even Churchill agreed with me on that.

veni vidi vici said...

Hey, are "hunger schoolchildren" attending those "poverty schools" that the President used to talk about all the time?