Writes Paul Waldman, in "How not to have a psychic meltdown when you see new Trump-Biden poll numbers/As infuriating as it is to admit the electorate may choose another Trump term, the only answer may be to hold on to that truth" (MSNBC).
I can barely understand what Waldman in trying to say. He stresses "truth" and "reality," yet the truth/reality that he claims to see is that our country is a "madhouse." So hold onto that and never forget: We're locked in a madhouse!
I guess one could approach life this way: I'm not crazy, the world is crazy. It allows you to distance yourself from other people: They're not worth understanding or even respect. You're right to fear and hate them.
पोस्ट्स
१५० टिप्पण्या:
So Paul Waldman is Elon Musk? (see previous post).
"I'm not crazy, the world is crazy."
That's my deal, and their indulgence of the New Age movement is my unimpeachable evidence.
The Trump supporting working class are the sane Americans.
Liberal elites are the ones that have managed to keep their heads in the clouds and up their asses at the same time. It really is an amazing trick.
Exercise your reason, stay informed, understand what’s happening in all its detail.
That's how you get more Trump. (I'm not crazy. The world is crazy)...
Where is the call for introspection? Re-evaluation?
How can you claim the moral high ground to judge Trump when you support Biden?
“I'm not crazy, the world is crazy.”
The Waldman Corollary to Raylan Givens’ Law of Assholes:
You run into a crazy person in the morning, you ran into a crazy person. You run into crazy people all day, you're the crazy person.
Shouldn't Mr. Waldman know better? I've been hearing for the last three years from the Very Smart, Very Superior People that Donald Trump has no chance of winning.
Flash back to Rachel Maddow on MSNBC election night 2016: "This is your reality." Those with TDS truly believed in 2016 that electing Trump was impossible, and now continue with mealy-mouthed vague and superstitious meanderings. But when the right wing denies an election...instant impeachment and absolute clarity!
The hardcore lefties had no self-awareness in 2016, and minimal self-awareness in 2023. They perceive a madhouse because they are the crazy ones, and unable to not be crazy.
I can barely understand what Waldman in trying to say.
He's trying to tell the Progressive Elite (and their Wannabes) that they may lose in 2024 without without admitting that the Progressive Left may have had a hand in events leading to the loss.
"It's a Madhouse... A MADHOUSE!"
"Rejecting reality only replicates Republicans’ errors that led to Trump’s rise."
Funny statement, given that he doesn't understand what led to Trump's rise, or he does but won't acknowledge it, which is even funnier.
"I guess one could approach life this way: I'm not crazy, the world is crazy."
The King of Hearts seemed profound to me in 1968. Now, not so much.
Waldman's got himself all wee-wee'd up.
It's an obvious symptom of cognitive dissonance, that the bringers in contrary information are defective.
It isn't Trump's doing. The madhouse is owned and staffed by dems. He kinda left that emphasis out. I remember Black Panthers in battle fatigues and riot batons standing guard over a public polling place.
I dare say the roots go farther back.
Another leftmediaswine pushing the illusion that Democrats won't rig another election.
Given their unscrupulous lawfare against Trump, their corruption of federal law enforcement and their obliteration of the last shreds of media objectivity, stealing another election is pocket change.
I still don't understand what they find so objectionable about Trump. I understand not liking him personally, and I understand ideological opposition to Republicans. But what did Trump ever do to be called a "revanchist authoritarian?"
I also don't understand how this author can so blatantly absorb the Biden administration propaganda about jobs and inflation, as if he doesn't live in the same world the rest of us do.
From my political philosophy training. Pascal said the ancients wrote about politics in the spirit of men trying to bring order to a madhouse. The moderns said: don't worry, we'll educate a lot of people in their native languages, weaken the old medieval church, and everybody will be enlightened. Oh by the way, insofar as we talk about government institutions, it's best to have an executive who is capable of making arbitrary decisions with little or no deliberation.
Pascal in the afterlife: that's super. Really, absolutely super.
Many times over the past fifty years, I have found my side (Yes, I used to identify with one 'side.') on the losing end of a presidential election. My reaction was to shake my head, take a drink, and hope to do better in four years. In cases where it seemed possible, I would resolve to reserve judgement on the new guy (or re-elected guy) until he showed his colors. Those were less-fraught times.
In this house, we believe:
In science and logic
In screaming in fear and anger
"not worth understanding or even respect" is a passive description. No effort required.
The reality is assertive; insults, demeaning, misrepresentation, cancelling, and on and on.
You are whatcha do.
How not to have a psychic meltdown...
You mean to say another psychic meltdown. The Rolling Stones would point out it's your 19th...
He probably also thinks men can get pregnant. . . . .
A madhouse BECAUSE of the Never Trumpers and Progressives like him who are helping Barack fundamentally change America into the hellhole it is becoming.
"Exercise your reason, stay informed, understand what’s happening in all its detail."
Gasoline, food and most items are way up.
Mortgage interest rates are way up.
6-8m new illegal aliens have been let into the country.
100k dead from fentanyl poisoning. And climbing.
Kids are way behind in school.
Big city crime is out of control.
The President has been bribed with at least $20m.
13 dead Americans needlessly died at Bagram AFB. We left billions in working weapons and military equipment for terrorists.
$400 billion plus wasted on "green" energy. Electricity prices headed much higher.
Who knows how many billions wasted in Ukraine.
Those are the facts. They can't be denied. I'm informed. The damage that Joe Biden and the Dems have done to this country will last for decades. He's the worst President in our history. No contest. And he's a criminal and his own party backs him.
Althouse writes, "I guess one could approach life this way: I'm not crazy, the world is crazy."
In transactional analysis, this is called the One-up Position. In Eric Berne's OK Corral, that's the quadrant home of history's complete shitters, from Caligula to Khomeini and evidently numerous MSNBC personalities as well.
What Waldman is saying has several historical precedents that come to mind:
- Those people have dark skin, they are not fully human, more like apes
- Those people have strange religious views, they should be exterminated
- Those people live in flyover country, they are dumb and ignorant
- Those people want to come to America, but not in my communities
Woke Left is a regressive form of tribalism
Those with TDS truly believed in 2016 that electing Trump was impossible
To riff on this idea a bit, after seeing the glorious smug removed from their faces that night, I quickly concluded even the insiders had miscalculated, that the shock was because they truly and incorrectly believed Obama voters would all be Hillary voters. Now with the 2023 knowledge of how corrupt election night is and public polling is I've come to theorize they knew what was coming and they had the actors in place to cook the vote, not to the extent of the fraud in 2020 but enough actors to act as another 'insurance policy'. The shock was because it wasn't sufficient and they ran out of time and scenarios and they had multiple contingencies in place to pull a Watergate...
..a Watergate. Tell me again how there's ever been an objective media personality in Washington?
Millions of Obama voters voted for Donald Trump in 2016. Thousands, if not millions, of Hillary voters voted for Trump in 2020.
If you can’t explain why a decent, thoughtful, caring, intelligent, informed person would vote for Donald Trump, then you should not be talking politics in public. You don’t know enough to have an opinion worth listening to.
@Wince
It's a madhouse...A MADHOUSE!
(Mine's better, I think.)
I understand the current left/liberals in Wisconsin and America. They've been brainwashed. They need psychotherapy more that MAGA conservatives. For some reason they have this strange need to virtue signal. I figure that is rooted in deep insecurity.
Although contently claiming the moral high ground, the yare unbelievably self centered and selfish. I didn't even have to make much of an effort to understand them. It's obvious. COVID exposed it all.
Line Dancing Nurses, "Heroes work here", Lockdown support, masks, pushing dangerous mRNA shots on kids. Pretending the war in Ukraine is about "protecting democracy" is the panicle.
They have and amazing ability to ignore their own obvious hypocrisy. (see liberal cities now freaking out about illegal aliens). Needless to say, self-awareness is not one of their strengths.
Just another propagandist.
But what did Trump ever do to be called a "revanchist authoritarian?"
Beat Hillary.
Seriously, that's it. The political class consists of a whole lot of narcissists, and their poli-sci nerd enablers, who believe that they are uniquely suited to rule over the rest of us. Trump's victory was seen as a rejection of that premise and their egos couldn't handle it.
Struggling to describe the madhouse, he could do worse than "an endless succession of beans and nuts." Oh, wait, that's the trademark of an... alternate house.
"But at those times when you want to scream in fear and anger, don’t think you’re being foolish or irrational. It just means you can see what’s in front of you."
It's interesting. I agree entirely with that statement. But I am in complete disagreement with its author.
It's rich listening to a left wing clown go on about "truth" when the 5th Court of Appeals just smacked down the corrupt democrat Stalinists for trying to coerce social media to disseminate their propaganda.
It allows you to distance yourself from other people: They're not worth understanding or even respect. You're right to fear and hate them.
This is exactly right.
It also provides a rationale to keep doing propaganda instead of journalism. It provides a rationale to support censorship. To close your eyes to persecution of political opponents. In short, to keep doing all the things they have been doing that are completely against everything liberals always said were their fundamental values.
The gambit is to cast those others as so many NPCs or muppets.
Nothing dehumanizing about that, eh?
"who has made clear his intention to practically dismantle the American system of democracy as soon as he gets the chance, is nearly an even bet to take back the White House"
These same dopes said he would do this from 2017 through 2021, yet he didn't. He hired a bunch of disloyal Democrat enablers who now hate him.
Their irrational fear of Trump tells me what every “conspiracy theorists” fail to show.
“Ye shall know them by their fruits.”
Look what they do.
"It just means you can see what’s in front of you."
Whatever you do, don't investigate the most inflammatory accusations against Trump in detail. Don't look for original sources, original speeches with complete context, none of that. Don't read the US Constitution regarding the role of State Legislatures in Federal elections, because it's wrong. It supports Trump's case, so you should not read it. Believe what you see on MSNBC, which lied to you for years about Trump and Russia. We lied to you for your own good, and to save democracy. We are running a corrupt old dotard, whose son feeds him policy dictated to him by his paying clients, to save democracy.
We lied about COVID to save democracy too. There is this myth that the advancement of knowledge, and of science specifically, depends on free speech. This is related to the idea that the electorate should be fully informed for a democracy to work. That's obviously wrong, not only is it wrong, but it's dangerous, in that it could lead you to vote against a Democrat. We know the truth and we will tell you as much of it as you need to know to do your part, which is to vote for the Democrat. Any other vote is a threat to democracy.
It's as Scott Adams says, the country is watching the same film, but 'seeing' two different movies.
What does the Progressive Left think is going to happen if Trump wins and they crank up the old team effort again, 100% non-stop vilification and hate-on-Trump and any identifiable Trump supporter, all-the-time? Are they going to start running people out of restaurants again, beating them bloody in the streets for wearing a red hat? Do they think half the country is going to put up with it silently, knowing there is 4 years of this, to look forward to, having put up with 4 years of higher-priced, locked-down, drag queen storybook-hour cancel culture? Sure they will.
Biden and the democrats are LITERALLY destroying middle america. Since they do nothing that is not planned to gain political power, this is all part of the plan.
Mickey Kaus says "Always delete the kicker," so I will just leave this out here without comment.
While political reporters obsess over the anger and resentments felt by blue-collar white men in Rust Belt diners, liberals’ emotions are seldom considered worthy of the same kind of exploration.
Waldmann might find it easier to face reality if he first acknowledged that voting for Biden (to the extent it really happened) was the clearest case in human history of half a nation cutting of their collective noses to spite their faces.
"Exercise your reason, ......"
I don't think their reason means what the rest of us know it means.
I also don't understand how this author can so blatantly absorb the Biden administration propaganda about jobs and inflation, as if he doesn't live in the same world the rest of us do.
@Friend of the Fish Folk, he doesn’t.
I guess one could approach life this way: I'm not crazy, the world is crazy. It allows you to distance yourself from other people: They're not worth understanding or even respect. You're right to fear and hate them.
Nice job boiling down leftist thinking.
People used to believe things because they were true.
To today’s Left, it’s true because they believe it.
I was told on FB by a liberal married woman in NE that it is okay for men to wear dresses; whatever makes you happy.
Another liberal claimed Jesus wore dresses.
We are well beyond two movies on one screen.
It's undeniable that the Clinton campaign and the DNC promoted Trump in the run-up to the 2016 primaries. The Democratic Party and the country in general would become healthier if those 500 or so people were hounded out of the party. No cooperation of non-Democrats is necessary.
We must become a dictatorship in order to preserve democracy.
Ohmmmmm
I'm not crazy! (Institution!)
You're the one that's crazy! (Institution!)
You're driving me crazy! (Institution!)
They stick me in an institution
And said it was the only solution
To give me the needed professional help
To protect from the enemy, myself
I was in my room
And I was just like, staring at the walls thinking about everything
But then again, I was thinking about nothing
And then my mom came in, and I didn't even know she was there
She called my name and I didn't hear her
And then she started screaming, "Mike! Mike!"
And I go, "What? What's the matter?"
She goes, "What's the matter with you?"
I go, "There's nothing wrong, mom"
She goes, "Don't tell me that, you're on drugs!"
I go, "No mom, I'm not on drugs, I'm okay, I'm just thinking, you know? Why don't you get me a Pepsi?"
She goes, "No! You're on drugs!"
I go, "Mom, I'm okay, I'm just thinking"
And she goes, "No! You're not thinking, you're on drugs!
Normal people don't act that way!"
I go, "Mom, just get me a Pepsi, please? All I want's a Pepsi"
And she wouldn't give it to me
All I wanted was a Pepsi
Just one Pepsi
And she wouldn't give it do me
"So we decided that it would be in your best interest
If we put you somewhere, you could get the help that you need"
And I go, "Wait, what are you talking about?
We decided? My best interest?
How do you know what my best interest is?
How can you say what my best interest is?
What are you trying to say, I'm crazy?
When I went to your schools, I went to your churches
I went to your institutional learning facilities
So how can you say I'm crazy?"
Assuming, for the sake of Argument.. That President Trump wins, beyond the margin of fraud..
Is there a person on Earth that doesn't think (that Doesn't KNOW) that the left will rise up in Violent Insurrection?
anyone? Any One, at all?
"understand what’s happening in all its detail"
Like, mass invasion, now destroying NYC?
"As infuriating as it is to admit the electorate may choose another Trump term..."
You mean choosing "low inflation, cheap gas, rising wages, declining unemployment rates and no new wars"? Yeah- why would anyone want *that*?
What a maroon.
Wildfires in California, wildfires in Canada, wildfires burning children to death on Maui, and the ongoing dumpster fire that is the Biden administration. Waldman and the rest of the Democrats may want to believe that it’s all due to anthropogenic climate change, but until they look past facile excuses and deal with poor policies then they should expect to get burned.
Hint from a Republican. If the Biden administration’s policies were any good at all, Trump would be down around 30%.
But what about that Biden madhouse, where the host is literally crazy and doesn't know when to get off the stage, again literally? And the sidekick cackles about everything and nothing, while apparently thinking like a three-year-old?
MSNBC's finest cannot process this truth.
When you are a religious fanatic, the only thing that is important is to remain consistent with dogma. Reality is just a nuisance. The Left has adopted a new religion of Social Justice/ Wokeism/ Transgenderism / Neo-Marxism and are executing an inquisition as we speak, yet are baffled by the idea that anyone would reject it. You cannot debate such people, and you cannot reach them without converting them out of the cult they are in.
Of course, some of them are just in it for the money.
“I understand the current left/liberals in Wisconsin and America.”
No, you actually don’t.
“I guess one could approach life this way: I'm not crazy, the world is crazy. It allows you to distance yourself from other people: They're not worth understanding or even respect. You're right to fear and hate them.”
This sentiment could belong to Trumpists toward non Trumpists and liberals. It’s all over these comments sections and have been for years. I’m pretty sure you know this.
Dave Begley said...Another liberal claimed Jesus wore dresses.
Jesus dressed according to the fashion of the time, which we today would call a dress. Sure, men can wear dresses if they want. It's just fashion. Who cares?
But nobody claimed that, because he wore a dress, Jesus wasn't a man.
I'm afraid the truth is not what Mr Waldman is dancing around and holding on to.
The new liberal paradigm is 2 + 2 = 5.
It applies to CAGW, Modern Monetary Theory, this trans business and the IRA.
I'm here LOLing the clips.
here's your madhouse
Minnesota to Issue Driver’s Licenses to 81,000 Illegal Aliens
needless to say..A Minnesota driver’s license is all a person needs to register to vote online.
“I understand the current left/liberals in Wisconsin and America.”
Russia Collusion Truther and Hillary/FBI Hoax Dossier Dead Ender Inga: "No, you actually don’t."
Inga is probably correct here.
No matter how gullible and psychotic Inga has conclusively demonstrated herself to be over the last 8 years, like all leftists Inga has an infinite capacity for absorbing and regurgitating every single conspiracy theory and obvious political lie put out by her DNC overseerers, without exception she has passionately pushed every one, and then, magically pretending she never did any such thing.
Its really quite remarkable and saner/reality-based minds often have difficulty grappling with that fact.
Thus, Inga is probably correct. Its not possible for normals to fully understand an Inga-type's desperate need to jump on every lefty rhetorical bandwagon.
As she recently admitted, she still fervently buys into the collusion hoax, thinks the dossier was "mostly proven true" (hence the "Dead Ender" tag), STILL believes in the russian bounty lie, and on and on and on.
She was still pushing the "secret Alfa bank server connection" lies long after the democratical academics and political operatives testified in court that THEY did it!
Too funny.
Blogger Inga said...
“I understand the current left/liberals in Wisconsin and America.”
No, you actually don’t.
Actually, psychiatrists might understand them if psychiatrists were not mostly just as crazy. But they are. Us normals are clustered in red states but the crazies are trying to get out of blue states and still believe in their nonsense.
Blogger Gusty Winds said...
The Trump supporting working class are the sane Americans.
Liberal elites are the ones that have managed to keep their heads in the clouds and up their asses at the same time. It really is an amazing trick.
Those of us who have accomplished something in life are also working class or might as well be according to the "elites." The "laptop" class is mostly where the craziness is.
Plus of course suburban educated white women who are not married.
Reminds me of what I believe is the most watched viral this year.
I can barely understand what Waldman in trying to say.
I'll say.
I think it's another case of he just can't understand why Trump refuses to just lose and go away. He was supposed to leave after the impeachments. He was supposed to leave after the 2020 election. He doesn't realize that Trump is just a figurehead for the distrust the populace has in the elite that is running the country.
One reason to vote for Trump is to force these yahoos to have to steal the election again. A Chris Christie gracefully losing is going to cement the new normal for all time.
They seem real worried that he will win for someone they beat fair and square the last time.
"I can barely understand what Waldman in trying to say."
Forget it, Jake. It's MSNBC.
"But what did Trump ever do to be called a "revanchist authoritarian?""
He held up a full-length mirror and they erroneously concluded that the image they saw was him.
"the 5th Court of Appeals just smacked down the corrupt democrat Stalinists for trying to coerce social media to disseminate their propaganda."
Rich told us it's social media's fault for being compliant and as such, not the fault of the coercing corrupt democrat Stalinists. I suspect he watches MSNBC.
"Trump" in prison. As the guards haul Trump to solitary, he screams to the other inmates, "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."
We are living in a Leftist Superiority Madhouse. Trump was the outsider who wasn't supposed to win, but he did. Then the Left went full nuclear fallout on the half of the country that voted for him. Plus they fabricated so many lies and narratives about Trump. They are just horrible people. I'm not sad they are having conniptions.
Blogger Friend of the Fish Folk said...
"I still don't understand what they find so objectionable about Trump. I understand not liking him personally, and I understand ideological opposition to Republicans. But what did Trump ever do to be called a "revanchist authoritarian?"
He won. And he showed it was possible to not just 'manage' the problems that beset the country, but to actually attempt to solve them with a fair amount of effectiveness. Then he did the unthinkable - he started working on foreign relations issues that had been stagnant for years, and with a good bit of success. (The US Embassy move in Israel had been stuck for how long?) And what he did with NK brought gasps of utter diplomatic horror. This is NOT HOW THINGS ARE DONE!
Which was why they worked.
Many people in DC are used to 'managing' the problem until something changes. This means leaving everything strictly the hell alone, because any change - ANY change - is dangerous, especially if the US sparks it.
What they don't seem to realize is that other countries have autonomy also. And they've got their own ideas of what's right and proper for THEIR countries.
Trump understood that. Our political 'elite' can, vaguely, comprehend that, but they're just Wogs - who cares what they think? And the peasants in the US? (Peasant being anyone outside the Beltway...) THEY don't matter one bit. They're stupid, and need someone to make their decisions for them, because they won't make the RIGHT decisions.
The inbred DC 'aristocracy' don't have a clue what it's like outside their bubbles. And they don't want to know, because it'll throw their aristocratic pretensions out the window if they did.
Polls, schmolls. They should keep the faith that Jabfly will save the day with his massive multistate dump.
What Democrats are doing is slowly, but very surely and very deliberately, convincing themselves that those MAGAs aren't really people. They're animals. Crazed animals.
It's easier to kill the Deplorables once you stop seeing them as people.
In the 1940s we called this the methodology "dehumanization." It allowed the Germans to exterminate Jews like they were swatting flies. And that's what's going to happen here in the United States too. The Democrats are no better than Nazi's and they're setting the stage to exterminate American citizens.
This sentiment could belong to Trumpists toward non Trumpists and liberals. It’s all over these comments sections and have been for years. I’m pretty sure you know this.
Big difference - when liberals get the people that they want in positions of power, they then spend the next four years complaining that everything is awful and getting worse (e.g., Occupy Wall Street occurred in the fall of 2011, smack in the middle of the Obama presidency, with a Senate majority, and just after the Democrats held all both houses of congress). When Trump was in office, Trumpists couldn't have been more delighted with the existence of things in the country.
“No reason to get excited”
I must admit the clips of people screaming at the sky in 2016 after Trump won were enjoyable. They seemed the embodiment of performative, the lifestyle choice.
"It's undeniable that the Clinton campaign and the DNC promoted Trump in the run-up to the 2016 primaries."
It's very deniable.
Uh, try reading the map right-side up, dude.
But Waldman. You built the madhouse. Now the rest of us are trying to re-elect the key that will let us out.
Those who are trembling in terror - climate anxiety, Covid, Donald Trump's re-election, the non-vaccinated have perhaps become addicted to hyper-palatable news.
To explain, I just became aware of a new category, hyper-palatable foods. These are foods developed in the Eighties and Nineties by those awful tobacco people. Big Tobacco bought into the food industry when it saw its empire might collapse and it brought the tobacco approach to food - get them addicted. The way was to begin combining two very palatable foods into one product so that the combination would be hyper-palatable and irresistible. I instantly tried to find what these dread combinations were so as to avoid (cough, cough) them. A little research showed I was familiar with most of them and their dread power - chocolate on anything, bacon + anything, pizza combinations, flavored chips, ice cream with Oreos in it or cookies with ice cream in them, and that. French fries was on the list - I wonder about that.
Anyhow these unfortunates are, perhaps, devouring hyper-palatable news. Donald Trump is not only a Republican but also a traitor in Russian pay; not only a friend to Israel but an anti-Semite; not only a President but a felon if there were any justice. People who don't mask are racists, secret supporters of the KKK with hoods at home. It's too good to stop reading. Hyper-palatable, addictive, mental foods. STOP. READING. THE NYT!!!
The Left and Right will never reconcile during my lifetime. The Left is going to have to suffer an incredible and crushing defeat. And I don't know what that might be.
Here are some things that might convince the Left that they are defeated.
1. Proof of millions going directly to Joe Biden in return for taking official actions. Biden is then impeached and convicted.
2. Some Dem insider breaks omerta and rats out how the Dems stole the 2020 election.
3. A climate insider admits it is all a scam in order to make money.
4. A trans insider admits it is all a scam to make money.
His role model is Ellsworth Toohey.
Silly me, I'd always thought having an opposition party that might win the election was how a liberal democracy is supposed to work. But now I see that having a viable opposition party itself is crazy and leads to a madhouse.
“You're right to fear and hate them.”
This sentiment could belong to Trumpists toward non Trumpists and liberals.
Inga, are you saying that "you're right to fear and hate them" is not the default position of the writer's audience? Or are you saying that it's not a problem for your side to fear and hate those "Trumpists" because they do it to you?
I think I have a decent understanding of those who support Trump passionately, though my support is limited to voting for him and, when his policies and actions have seemed good to me, supporting those. I think some of it is that he really is good at the Everyman thing; rich as he is, he doesn't talk down to ordinary people the way Obama and H. Clinton did (W. Clinton was a pretty good Everyman) - the way Warren faked "getting her a beer." But more, and this part is increasing, is that the people who dub Trump supporters "Trumpists" appear to be trying to destroy everything of value to ordinary people, and Trump says he will stand in the way.
Every social institution - church, family, community affiliations, school, the arts, sports, patriotism - is being chopped up, and the scraps reassembled into creepy scarecrows of their former selves. This gleeful destruction is being carried out in the name of "tolerance" and "adjective-of-your-choice justice" by people who dub other people "Trumpists" and "deplorables" and "flyover rubes."
And yes, it's only a - very vocal - minority of the people who call Trump supporters "Trumpists" who are actually wielding the axes. But the rest of you are either applauding or providing apologetics. The few on your side who do object are then hit with the friendly fire of "racist," "bigot," or "something-phobe" and forced out of your side's club.
Do you understand any of this?
It seems to me that from your side, "Trumpists" appear to be people who stubbornly and stupidly refuse to accept your consensus about the social order. The benign elements of your side see, for instance, a Pride parade as the triumph of one branch of civil rights - and fail to see the effects of the assless chaps on the old-fashioned idea of public decorum, much less the longer-term effects of those assless chaps on things like kids' adolescent psychosexual development.
WRT human nature, your side is Rousseau - an uninvestigated belief that the less a person or group has encountered "civilization," the purer and more perfect they are. My side is more Lord of the Flies - a recognition that we all need a strong and shared social order to keep the evil and cravenness in every person at bay. But your side has become the tribal side, and you don't seem to understand why your name-calling doesn't just result in my side's shamed acquiescence to your side's well-policed consensus. Can you demonstrate that this isn't so?
Don't forget good ol' Mr. Natural
It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World
Of course it was a funnier world when Buddy Hackett was in it.
This squinty old man
shit for brains or empty head
senescence at play
“But your side has become the tribal side, and you don't seem to understand why your name-calling doesn't just result in my side's shamed acquiescence to your side's well-policed consensus.”
Jaime, what name did I call you or “your side”? A Trumpist? Is this an insult? If so ask yourself why. Also, “your side” is a tribal as “my side”, don’t fool yourself.
“WRT human nature, your side is Rousseau - an uninvestigated belief that the less a person or group has encountered "civilization," the purer and more perfect they are. My side is more Lord of the Flies - a recognition that we all need a strong and shared social order to keep the evil and cravenness in every person at bay.”
You couldn’t be more wrong, my side believes in a social order, in society, in social safety nets. Societies are formed because the members believe in being civilized, we don’t embrace the Lord of the Flies mentality.
Interesting to read the chronicling of the Biden Administration's actions to suppress the free speech of millions of Americans on various platforms in the recent 5th Circuit opinion. I suppose Walden's use of the term "revanchist" to modify authoritarian is necessary to distinguish Trump's presumed evil authoritarianism from Biden's Progressive authoritarianism, which is of course entirely virtuous. Sort of like how "Save our Democracy" means, and only means, elect Democrats.
Also Jamie, don’t speak to me of patriotism. I have several family members serving in the military, my daughter is getting ready to retire after serving in the Navy for 22 years, she is a liberal and a Democrat and so are her many of her fellow sailors and soldiers, more than you might want to believe.
I think you too do not understand American liberals.
"But more, and this part is increasing, is that the people who dub Trump supporters "Trumpists" appear to be trying to destroy everything of value to ordinary people, and Trump says he will stand in the way."
I have asked this (or similarly worded) question over a dozen times in various places on the intertubes:
"Trump gave us low inflation, energy independence, cheap gas, rising wages, declining unemployment rates and no new wars. What part of that do you find objectionable, and why?"
Nobody on the left ever seems to reply.
An old friend of mine told the story of a man who said to him, "I am not paranoid, but they are out to get me".
Rabel said...
["It's undeniable that the Clinton campaign and the DNC promoted Trump in the run-up to the 2016 primaries."]
"It's very deniable."
No.
1. There's a precedent. How I Helped Todd Akin Win — So I Could Beat Him Later
by SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL August 11, 2015
2. Bill Clinton encouraged Donald Trump to ruling for President. Bill Clinton encouraged Donald Trump to run for President during a phone call before he decided to run for president.
3. The news outlets gave mostly neutral or faintly favorable coverage to Trump before the nomination was a lock, using words like 'historic,' 'unconventional,' 'unprecedented.' Here's an example: Donald Trump Announces 2016 Presidential Campaign: 'We Are Going Make our Country Great Again' (ABC News)
"The Democrat National Committee responded to Trump's announcement with a statement: “Today, Donald Trump became the second major Republican candidate to announce for president in two days. He adds some much-needed seriousness that has previously been lacking from the GOP field, and we look forward hearing more about his ideas for the nation.“"
4. Once Trump had the nomination, out came the oppo research (e.g., the Billy Bush tape,:et al., ad nauseam).
After all these things, the conventional wisdom was that there was no way enough people would vote for the doofus. That's why the DMV and the news media (but I repeat myself) were caught flat-footed. They thought Trump would go the way of Todd Akin. Instead, like with Archie Bunker, they couldn't figure out his appeal.
Inger: "Also Jamie, don’t speak to me of patriotism." Typical deflection (his post never uses the term patriotism). And now you know, Jamie, why it is pointless to try to engage Inga in meaningful dialogue.
"my daughter is getting ready to retire after serving in the Navy for 22 years, she is a liberal and a Democrat and so are her many of her fellow sailors and soldiers"
What are their opinions on holding political prisoners? For or against? Everybody knows what right-thinking progressives have to say about that, of course, but it would be interesting to know the thoughts of our modern military.
"Trump gave us low inflation, energy independence, (sic) cheap gas, rising wages, declining unemployment rates and no new wars."
All of that was the continuing fruits of the improving economy that began early in Obama's first administration and continued into his second, and continued still as Obama left office and Trump entered. Trump did not enter the White House and turn a devastated America into a thriving paradise. (Giving us "no new wars" is pretty fucking low level of achievement; why didn't he end our wars abroad? He said he would...but he didn't do shit except escalate our violence where we continued our military adventuring.)
Pepole satirze heston's performance all the time in Planet of the Apes. And i agree it would've been much better if Dustin Hoffman or Jane Fonda had spoke the lines.
You couldn’t be more wrong, my side believes in a social order, in society, in social safety nets. Societies are formed because the members believe in being civilized, we don’t embrace the Lord of the Flies mentality.
I think you misunderstand me. I wasn't saying my side (which is shorthand for "conservatives" as when I say "your side" I'm using it as shorthand for "progressive liberals and progressives") embraces Lord of the Flies. I was saying we acknowledge that evil lurks in the hearts of all men, so to speak, and isn't externalized in only the hearts of those people over there. Do you find that the progressive side acts as if it believes that? I find that the progressive side acts as if all evil dwells on the conservative side, no matter what they profess.
Are you saying, by the way, that you don't say "Trumpists" with a fastidious little moue? It's a good motte-and-bailey - "I was just being descriptive! If you read this one word I used as an insult, maybe the problem is you" - but I doubt you'll be able to claim with any kind of credibility that you're using that term simply as a descriptor with no negative connotation, based on the tone of the entirety of your comments.
I won't apologize for bringing patriotism into it. I think you'd have to agree that patriotism in its traditional sense is very far out of favor on the progressive left, no matter how faithfully your family has served and is serving our country. Now, if you're using a definition of patriotism that's something like, "Dissent - but not just dissent but also denial of any founding good or any subsequent progress in meeting our founding ideals - is the highest form of patriotism," then you're just picking a fight.
I wasn't trying to insult you... much. I'll admit to using "people who call other people 'Trumpists'" as a jab, and I apologize. I really was, and am, trying to determine whether you - as, unfortunately for you, an avatar of "your side" here - are making any good-faith effort to understand "my side" and to test my understanding of "yours." I'd be happy to hear from any of our commenters from the left; you were just the one who spoke up about it.
So. Do you have any thoughts about my description of what I think "your side" believes about "my side"? Do you have any thoughts about what I think "my side" believes about "your side"?
SciFi nerds always make fun of the "Goddamn you all to hell" line because they are emotionless drones who look at things and go "it does not not compute. It does not compute". The lines also send liberal/leftists into a tizzy too. I'm not sure why. Maybe any strong honest expression of anger frightens them, unless its directed against the Righwing.
You don't embrace Lord of the Flies mentality, you employ it. Like a mechanic using an impact driver to change sparkplugs, you employ it.
Do not suggest the left is liberal. They are not. Liberals don’t use the DOJ to suppress free speech. Liberals don’t demand you wear a mask to walk in public or attend school. Liberals don’t shutdown roads leading out of a massive fire. You don’t understand current liberals if you think they are on the left. Current liberals publish on Substack and own Twitter/X. The left occupies the DA offices letting criminals roam free and jailing anyone that defends themself or others. The left is telling parents their children can be taken away if the state decides the parent misgendered the child.
I think you too do not understand American liberals.
Snort. We understand you all too well.
And the fact you don't realize there is nothing 'liberal' about today's left reveals you don't even understand yourself.
"Trump gave us low inflation, energy independence, cheap gas, rising wages, declining unemployment rates and no new wars. What part of that do you find objectionable, and why?"
Mason G: "Nobody on the left ever seems to reply."
Not surprising really. Few on the left are even remotely reality based.
What is surprising is how many republicans that also want Trump gone ALSO pretend those accomplishments are not noteworthy or even non-existent.
Inga said: “what name did I call you or “your side”? A Trumpist? Is this an insult?”
It’s an attempt to other a wide variety of people. It’s an attempt to describe conservatives as not a group with ideas and principles, but a group of people who are following a person - no matter what that person stands for.
Democrats and liberals say it’s the worst kind of behavior to label a group with words the group itself finds offensive. Calling conservatives and Republicans who support Donald Trump by the label “Trumpist” is offensive.
“You couldn’t be more wrong, my side believes in a social order, in society, in social safety nets. Societies are formed because the members believe in being civilized, we don’t embrace the Lord of the Flies mentality.”
Your side believes in the free lunch and promotes/rewards behaviors that are detrimental to human life.
Democrats ruin America’s future. Disastrous results wrapped in good intentions are ruinous and their vision for America is unsustainable.
Yeah, Inga, all the liberals who profess embarrassment and triggering at the sight of the American flag just drips of patriotism.
The U.S. Open Finals wouldn’t even play The National Anthem of the USA, choosing instead to substitute the black national anthem. I have no issue with the latter being played AFTER our national anthem, but their choice shows how “patriotic” liberal Democrats are. Fuck ‘em.
I must ask, just WHO do you think liberals are? Do you seriously think liberals don’t live in every state, in every walk of life, from the rich man to the poor man to the ordinary man. Liberals marry, have children, go to church, join the military, have jobs in every field, etc etc etc.
It is the right wing that has painted the left in some fantastical, unrealistic way for years now. Not every liberal is gay or trans, or some streaming militant man hating feminist. The left has become something the right wants to own, “Own the libs!”, sound familiar?
I suggest the rsome of you on the right take time to get to know some liberal neighbors or coworkers and actually become friends and socialize with some of them. Maybe it will dawn on you most liberals are not so very different than the ordinary man you consider yourself to be, or the ordinary person you think Trump cares about. The right does not have the market on “the ordinary man”.
“Inga said: “what name did I call you or “your side”? A Trumpist? Is this an insult?”
It’s an attempt to other a wide variety of people.”
Liberals are called communists and Marxists everyday on these threads have been for years. You need to own what “your side” has done and continues to do.
Previous comment erratum: DNC, not DMV. AutoIncorrect strikes again.
“ Inger: "Also Jamie, don’t speak to me of patriotism." Typical deflection (his post never uses the term patriotism). And now you know, Jamie, why it is pointless to try to engage Inga in meaningful dialogue.”
————————————————————-
Jamie said…
“Every social institution - church, family, community affiliations, school, the arts, sports, patriotism -is being chopped up…”
"All of that was the continuing fruits of the improving economy that began early in Obama's first administration and continued into his second, and continued still as Obama left office and Trump entered."
So- all the stuff Trump did was basically a continuation of Obama's polices? That's your argument? So why did the left lose its collective mind over Trump? I mean- if he's doing the same things Obama did, seems like they should be happy. Right?
"No."
I don't agree. None of that is convincing unless you apply a very minimalist definition of "promoted" which would otherwise imply agreement with the absurd "stalking horse" argument.
Inga is a Bidenista.
Russia Collusion Truther and Hillary/FBI Hoax Dossier Dead Ender Inga: "You couldn’t be more wrong, my side believes in a social order, in society, in social safety nets."
The condition of New Soviet Democratical cintrolled cities puts the immediate and irrefutable lie to this statement.
I'm not crazy, the world is crazy.
It's super-important to distinguish between "the world" and "the media world."
What is "crazy" are our media elites. A select group of people are drunk on power, and they are frantic that their power to "control the narrative" is about to implode and disappear. I won't mention any names, but let me throw out some initials:
WAPO, NYT, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, AP, CNN, and maybe some tech overlords at FB and GOOG. Basically people in NYC and LA with their head up their ass. They all went to the same schools and I imagine them going to Davos and sharing tips on how wonderful it is to be liberal and rich and nice.
I would argue that Roe v. Wade set the template, with the unelected dictators kicking unborn children out of humanity, while the "Fourth Estate" yawned and tried to get laid again.
(The "Fourth Estate" is a telling phrase about how some journalists worship power and they want to play that game).
Major whoppers include the argument that men have nothing to do with pregnancy, or that pregnancy doesn't involve a baby. Let's use the Latin we learned at Yale and maybe we can fool ordinary people. It's no big deal, all we're doing is kicking some human beings out of humanity (again).
I'm tempted to cite John 8:44. If you don't know what a person is, you really shouldn't be a Supreme Court Justice, or a President, or a Senator or a Representative. You shouldn't be in the government at all. You should maybe retire and play golf. Focus on hitting a little white ball and getting it in a hole. That's your skill set.
You also shouldn't be a doctor if you don't know what a person is, or you're unfamiliar with the Hippocratic Oath. And you shouldn't be a lawyer, either. Be a rich and famous golfer, that's my suggestion. Morally speaking, that's the job for you.
It's bizarre that so many elites are saying, with a straight face, they don't know what a woman is. I would suggest that 50 years of "gender studies" taught at elite universities is what has caused this shit-show. And our children -- who are taught to listen to authorities -- have been led down a fucked up evil path.
Is it the fear of overpopulation? Is that what drives the infanticide and the castrations and the steroid prescriptions for 9-year-old girls? When I was a kid, everybody and his mother warned me about the dangers of steroids. "You want to be a big strong man? Don't do it!" And now we're in the 21st century, and they're handing them out to girls like steroids are M&Ms. I wonder if it might cause cancer and/or suicide when the mental disease goes untreated and the plastic surgery doesn't actually resolve the problem.
I love the internet, but if all you know is the internet (or the Yale library) and you are oblivious to the actual world created by God, you've got a serious problem. Not giving a shit about facts is fine in Hollywood. It's fine if you're a stand-up comic, or a guy in a bar. Not so good if your job is supposed to be reporting the truth to people. And by "truth" I don't mean happy ideas, but factual reality. I have zero sympathy for the NYT and their red diaper babies in the newsroom. You fucking created them. Change their diapers!
shorter version...
you can't put politics over jurisprudence (or journalism!) and then complain when people notice
@Inga: my side believes in a social order
Know your place, peasants!
@Inga: my side believes in a social order
Know your place, peasants!
Inga said “You need to own what “your side” has done and continues to do.”
No I don’t. I only have to own what I do. I’m a conservative and as such I don’t believe in collective guilt. (BTW it’s a tenet of Marxism/communism as well as a lot of other nasty isms.)
"I must ask, just WHO do you think liberals are?"
You keep using that word 'liberal.' It's quite clear you don't have the first clue as to what a liberal is.
You're not a liberal.
You're a leftist.
That's what we're trying to tell you.
The fact you refuse to recognize the difference should disqualify you from further comment.
Inga does make some good points. But she's not willing to admit her party's been hijacked by the extreme, far left. But she's smart enough to know we're pointing it out.
And she hates that.
"The U.S. Open Finals wouldn’t even play The National Anthem of the USA, choosing instead to substitute the black national anthem."
Start calling it the New York Open. It doesn't represent America anymore.
"Liberals are called communists and Marxists everyday on these threads have been for years. You need to own what “your side” has done and continues to do."
Oh PLEASE. YOUR side has been calling us RACISTS since Obama told us he was going to fundamentally change America into this shithole. YOUR side lied and said Tea Partiers spit on them and called them the N word, with Jesse Jacksons son recording everything, and yet no recordings of that ever showed up. You are liars, and you are dividers. Go away. You aren't changing any minds. YOUR side did this. Enjoy the divide and the hatred you caused and just leave us alone now.
Blogger Inga said...
I must ask, just WHO do you think liberals are?
--
Hard to miss them since they tend to inject politics into neutral discussions in a way that tells you they assume you agree with them.
Think of how many times Ingot called "Trumpists" part of a "cult".
It's a cult!
Bwack!
Cult!
Rabel said...
["No."]
"I don't agree. None of that is convincing unless you apply a very minimalist definition of "promoted" which would otherwise imply agreement with the absurd "stalking horse" argument."
Malarkey. You present no evidence for your assertion. I've compiled a whole lot of it, ever since 2015 when I discerned that something was afoot. I won't clog the comments section with it, but there's a lot more than what fits in Blogger's character limits
""All of that was the continuing fruits of the improving economy that began early in Obama's first administration and continued into his second, and continued still as Obama left office and Trump entered."
Cookie: Why would any sentient voter believe this? The economy absolutely boomed under Trump, to the great benefit of pretty much everybody in the country, until the Covid disaster. Why would anyone not conclude that what Trump did--or did not do--helped facilitate that state of affairs? Even if your claim was true, and most of the credit goes to Obama (what color is the sky in your world, anyway?), why would any sentient voter concerned about the economy prefer the current regime, which is busily running the economy into a ditch?
Iman @ 8:07 PM,
I very much dispute the notion of "good intentions". Aiming to rule over others, with OR without a claim of "for their own good", is not in any way a good intention.
actually become friends and socialize with some [liberals]. Maybe it will dawn on you most liberals are not so very different than the ordinary man you consider yourself to be,
Our dearest and oldest friends are progressive liberals (meaning they're not aaaall the way over to the progressive side but they lean strongly that way). One of our kids is a Bernie bro. I'm in two church choirs; both run about 75% left-leaning, and of that fraction, up to 50% actually progressive. My book club friends are 70% progressive (7 of 10); my writing group is 3/4 liberal to progressive. My father, retired career USAF officer, is liberal to progressive depending on the issue. Among his five siblings, three are liberal to progressive, with my aunt and her wife (put that way instead of just "my aunts" to make the obvious point) being the most progressive.
Among these friends and family, most are, as you say, "ordinary" in the sense of leading lives that generally resemble one another: marriage, often kids, affiliating in various ways with others. (I'll note that one of my church choirs - the more progressive one - doesn't know I'm conservative, so I get to hear how they talk about "my kind." I applaud Inga, Robert Cook, Rich, hpudding, and the rest for being here; maybe you all enjoy confrontation and it doesn't take as much of a toll on you, but since 2015 I've been very uncomfortable in that group when the talk turns to politics; it's been straight-up "Trumpist"-bashing with no thought to why anyone might vote for Trump, much less any idea that one among their number might have done so. Nevertheless they are my friends, just not quite close enough for me to be "out" to them.)
My long association with people on the left is exactly why I'm trying to determine whether people on the left - not media figures nor activists, but just people - make any effort to understand their friends and family on the right. How about you, Inga - do you know and socialize with many conservatives? Did any of your friends vote for Trump?
"Cookie: Why would any sentient voter believe this?"
Because it's true.
"The economy absolutely boomed under Trump, to the great benefit of pretty much everybody in the country, until the Covid disaster."
It's funny, all the Trump loyalists say the economiy ABSOLUTELY BOOMED, but I didn't notice any dramatic jump in our national fortunes during Trump's administration. Things just seemed to continue on as the had been as far as I could see, that is, a continuing good economy. Trump made boastful claims about how fantastic everything was, but then, he always makes boastful claims that have little to do with objective reality. In order for Trump to always be making miracles, he has to claim that everything was terrible before he acted. His loyalists just believe whatever he says.
"Why would anyone not conclude that what Trump did--or did not do--helped facilitate that state of affairs?"
He helped circumstances continue on their upward growth by not doing anything drastically different. Which is to say, he didn't hinder the economy.
"Even if your claim was true, and most of the credit goes to Obama (what color is the sky in your world, anyway?), why would any sentient voter concerned about the economy prefer the current regime, which is busily running the economy into a ditch?"
I'm not making any positive claims about Biden's administration. Much of the economic problems, however, are global in nature, and are not unique to or caused by President Biden. One wouldn't say that Trump caused the economic drop that began in the last year of his administration, would they, given that it had significantly to do with the the global COVID pandemic? That is the way the world works: shit happens and national governments react.
Brevity is the soul of wit, which is why I've never gotten a laugh in my life.
We on the right have no choice but to try to cope with, if not understand, the milieu of the left: the left at least controls the leadership but often is well down into the rank-and-file of all bureaucracies, schools including universities, entertainment, almost all news media, an increasing percentage of sports, a shocking percentage of the medical establishment, many branches of Christianity and almost all of Judaism...
So let me try again. I think that "ordinary" people who lean left generally do so out of a desire to be compassionate and fair. They see the injustices and plain natural tragedies of the past and want them to be, respectively, corrected and avoided in our time.
It may surprise some on the left to learn that these feelings also motivate people on the right.
Where the trouble happens, ISTM, is twofold: in methods and in priorities. The conservative side understands Chesterton's Fence - even the non-intellectuals use aphorisms like "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," which is related. The progressive side appears to me to believe that sometimes the need to get rid of the fence justifies any subsequent problems (which can be true - e.g. slavery), and is - in my opinion - overconfident in its ability to fix whatever problems it may create by tearing it down. Further, it tends to value intentions over results. That's the methods side.
On the priorities side, it seems to me that at present the doctrine of intersectionality has created a public sphere in which, first, no one can know where she stands (your current group victimization or group culpability score changes depending on who just walked into the room), and second, a scapegoat is necessary. The priority in any policy discussion is the momentary Queen of the Mountain, regardless of whether that priority makes sense in solving the problem, and while at least the scapegoat is always the same, does it track with our moral progress that we've returned to the earliest parts of the Old Testament?
I'm aiming both of these critiques at Democrat and leftist activist leadership. But the response by "ordinary" people on the left follows suit: it's racist to question whether creating incentives for poor women, and especially poor black women, to have children without a present father might not be good for family structure or for those children. It's denialist to question whether our banning fossil fuels will move the carbon needle if China and India aren't held to the same standard. It's anti-science to question the value of keeping children out of school for a year because of an illness that statistically doesn't affect them. It's cruel to deny a 10-year-old's self-conception about sex, an area about which we all hope she has no personal experience.
Do we hear this kind of self- and community-policing from the "ordinary" people on the right? Maybe we would if we were in charge of the public discourse - certainly we did to some degree, back in the past. But at present, the right seems to do a better job of living and letting live. I hope that if we're ever in charge again, we remember this lesson.
“How about you, Inga - do you know and socialize with many conservatives? Did any of your friends vote for Trump?”
I live and have lived in Waukesha County, WI ( one of the most conservative counties in the US) for over 40 years. I have associated with, socialized and have relatives who align with the right. Many of these people are business men and women and have voted Republican for financial reasons mostly. Many of my conservative friends are not absolutists regarding abortion. I’m glad to report that the great majority of my conservative friends and family do not support Trump at this point. Some voted for him once, some twice, most won’t vote for him again. Trump did not do as well in Waukesha County in 2020 as he did in 2016. He did not do well among my suburban friends, relatives and neighbors. I understand conservatives that I know pretty well I believe. What I don’t understand is the continuing support for Trump by some other people on the right and I must say that continuing support does smack of cultism to me and many on the left, moderate right and independents I know. I’ve heard current Trump supporters being referred to as cult-like even by moderate conservatives I know.
“I'm not making any positive claims about Biden's administration. Much of the economic problems, however, are global in nature, and are not unique to or caused by President Biden. One wouldn't say that Trump caused the economic drop that began in the last year of his administration, would they, given that it had significantly to do with the the global COVID pandemic? That is the way the world works: shit happens and national governments react.”
Yes, true.
I'll go over this one more time for the simpletons.
What does the world run on?
The world runs on oil. petroleum.
What did trump do that made the United States competitive in the global petroleum market?
He opened up drilling and exploration. Reigned inrestrictions. Allowed proposed pipelines to go through, etc.
What happened to the world oil market?
What happened to the economy of the United States?
Remember when we were told it would take ten years to drill our way into prosperity so why bother?
It took less than six months.
"Remember when we were told it would take ten years to drill our way into prosperity so why bother?"
"We can't just drill our way out of the problem." - B. Obama
Inga, thanks for responding! So - if I'm reading correctly, you live in a very conservative county, but your friends and relatives on the right are not, themselves, very socially conservative (they vote R for economic reasons, they are not abortion absolutists). Fair enough. None of my progressive friends or relatives is an activist (well, maybe my aunts, but if so they don't talk about their activism at family gatherings).
But you say you don't understand any support for Trump, and it sounds as if you still think that anyone who would support Trump in the general election has characteristics of a cult member, even though most people here who have said they will support Trump in the general are not, as they say, Ever-Trumpers. By the same token, I don't understand the insistence by anyone that Biden is actually doing a good job, was ever a nice guy, or as a politician has ever been other than an opportunist, to put the best light on him. I do understand those who voted for him simply because he wasn't Trump - they were just believing what they'd been told - even though, for my part, I still don't understand the characterization of Trump as a fascist, racist, or fool.
That's not true. I understand it; it's facile and it's been said about every Republican president since at least Nixon. I just don't find it to have been borne out in his actions either before, during, or after his presidency (he might be a bit quixotic at present, but I don't think that makes him a fool).
And I think I do understand how "Ever-Trump" people come to that position: he does fight some powerful cultural New Norms that I agree are terribly divisive and even dangerous, and he is an outsider with enough personal juice to stand up to the stultifyingly inside world of DC - if only he'd pick better people more consistently.
And then there's the reaction to him. What do you think of the indictments, in light of all the ways in which the 2020 election was indubitably not Election As Usual, no matter how many times we were hit over the head with "2020 was the most free and fair election in history"? Does it bother you at all that that, plus deplatforming, was the response to those who wanted to see meaningful forensic election audits in places where undoubtedly weird statistical things and odd coincidences all carrying unidirectional benefits occurred? What do you think of the indictments of his lawyers?
This incredibly illiberal reaction is, I believe, another thing that drives committed Trump supporters, and moves me toward him even though I still don't plan to vote for him in the primaries: they do protest too much, methinks.
What makes ordinary liberals support and defend such illiberal actions by their side? Is it ignorance due to biased reporting? That can't be true of you - you're here. So is it sunk cost? Or is it something else?
"Malarkey"
Codswallop. There's nothing there but peripheral characters, everyday political behavior, and media speculation. You can't legitimately turn that into a deep DNC plot that was quietly executed and resulted in Trump's nomination.
It's a reach promoted by conspiracy theorists, never-Trumpers and the gullible. Don't fall for it.
“And then there's the reaction to him. What do you think of the indictments, in light of all the ways in which the 2020 election was indubitably not Election As Usual, no matter how many times we were hit over the head with "2020 was the most free and fair election in history"?”
The 2020 elections were no different than any other elections in the past. There was no evidence of widespread voter fraud or cheating. IMO pushing the untruth of the 2020 election being an unusual election is just falling for Trump’s lies.
“Does it bother you at all that that, plus deplatforming, was the response to those who wanted to see meaningful forensic election audits in places where undoubtedly weird statistical things and odd coincidences all carrying unidirectional benefits occurred?”
Every single instance of supposed abnormalities or odd instances have been disproven when looked at. Was it right to ruin the lives of Ruby Freeman and her daughter Shay Moss with a massive lie about passing a USB drive between them? How evil to have done this to these two innocent women. I have no problem with any investigation, but there have been plenty of investigations and not one of them showed massive voter fraud.
What do you think of the indictments of his lawyers?
If his lawyers broke laws ( racketeering, violating oath of a public officer, forgery, false statements, etc.) in their representation of Trump, they are subject to indictment. They are officers of the court and should know better. They take an oath when becoming a bar member. They will get a trial in front of a jury.
“What makes ordinary liberals support and defend such illiberal actions by their side? Is it ignorance due to biased reporting?”
I could ask the same of Trump supporting Republicans and conservatives. I don’t see this level of support and complicity for extremist ideologies from moderate conservatives or right leaning independents.
What extremist ideologies, Inga? List them.
Jordan Peterson gave an interesting lecture where he told this storey.
"After Germany conquered Poland the Reich needed police officers to maintain order. So theywent to Germanys largest cities and recruited veteran police officers. These were midddle aged family men not raised, like the Hitler Youth, on Nazi propaganda. They had families. They were good repectable men. They were sent to Polands major cities to keep order. In less than a year they were marching pregnant Polish women to the edge of mass graves and putting a bullet in their heads."
You, Inga, and the rest of the usual suspects remind me of those police officers.
I'll tell you why. And I've seen this over and over. When asked why I would support Trump for re-election, despite the fact that he is not all the time likable, I have given you a long list of carefully thought out reasons based on his performance as President. These reasons are not at all unreasonable. None of them are based on Trumps personality. They are based soley on what he has done as president.
When I ask you or someone like you what you think of Trump I get a lot of reasons primarily based on emotions. "He's a bad man." Why? " Because he's bad." OK. But Why is he bad? "He's done bad things." And it digresses from there.
And then I ask what has Biden done that you find so admirable? Crickets. There is not a thing he has done to improve the lives of the people of this country. He has done a lot to improve the lives of his family and other politicians, but the middle and lower classes are suffering under this administartion.
The difference between you and me, Inga, is that I will sacrifice anything to keep that woman and her child safe. And you, Inga and your friends, In the name of the Party, will gladly put a bullet in her head.
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