१४ मार्च, २०२२

"A fully off-grid system in California can run from $35,000 to $100,000, according to installers. At the low end, such systems cost roughly as much as an entry-level Chevrolet Silverado pickup truck...."

"Lithium-ion batteries weighing as little as 30 pounds, requiring minimal maintenance and costing $10,000 to $20,000 have replaced banks of lead acid batteries that used to cost tens of thousands of dollars, could weigh thousands of pounds and needed regular upkeep.... Off-grid systems are particularly attractive to people building new homes. That’s because installing a 125- to 300-foot overhead power line to a new home costs about $20,000, according to the California Public Utilities Commission. In places where lines have to be buried, installation runs about $78,000 for 100 feet.... [E]lectric cars may soon [serve as the battery for the system, but the ones] available now aren’t designed to send power to homes. But newer models like the Ford F-150 Lightning and the Hyundai Ioniq 5 will have that ability, said Bill Powers, a San Diego engineer who plans to go off the grid with the help of an electric car. 'The Holy Grail to me now is in electric vehicles.'"

I'm reading "Frustrated With Utilities, Some Californians Are Leaving the Grid/Citing more blackouts, wildfires and higher electricity rates, a growing number of homeowners are choosing to build homes that run entirely on solar panels and batteries" (NYT).

My excerpt combines text at the beginning of the article and the end. I've skipped all the stories about particular individuals in part because they had nothing to do with American-made trucks, and I thought it was interesting that a Chevrolet Silverado and a Ford F-150 popped up in this article. 

The other reason I skipped the people was that I didn't find them interesting. They weren't "doomsayers or the eco-hippies." The reason that's in quotes is because we're told that's not what these people are. These are Californians with enough money to buy land, build new houses, and cut themselves off from the unreliable Pacific Gas & Electric. 

There's a man "and his wife" who "bought five acres with spectacular views of snow-capped mountains. " The man was a home health care worker, we're told, and we're not told what his wife's job was. How could they afford such a fine place? And why isn't it a woman "and her husband"? Where's the gender equity in journalistic writing? I'm left suspecting that the woman's job is something more lucrative than home health care worker.

Another person in the article happens to own 2 Teslas. But off-the-grid house-building is presented as something you can do instead of buying that Chevrolet Silverado. Hmm. Okay. And yes, I'm saying that as a retired professor who, with her husband, just bought a Ford F-150. But I like to try to understand what kind of people these articles are about. Are they economically privileged and choosing to cut themselves off from the problems of the ordinary people who are stuck with the electric company? Or are they showing us something that we all could do? No, what about all the people in cities, in apartment buildings? There has to be a grid, doesn't there, and won't people going off the grid — rather than using their roofs to generate solar energy and feed it into the grid — make the grid even worse for everyone else?

I think the NYT is downplaying the privilege. It's got something cool to show us, the readers.

९५ टिप्पण्या:

Lucien म्हणाले...

They recharge the batteries how? Is the plan to charge a vehicle, have it carry the charge home to transfer to batteries? How is that “off the grid”?

David Begley म्हणाले...

The other day on CNBC I heard the female CEOs of PG&E and GM talk about the future. They were both giddy at the thought of EVs. The CA EVs would be forced to buy power from the local monopoly electric utility. They will both make way more money. That’s what the CAGW scam is all about: Money.

OPPD thinks its revenue will triple. Fat chance.

Lucien म्हणाले...

OK, solar panels, if the sun shines enough. If you’re really worried about climate change, why go for technologies like wind and solar power that are based on the climate remaining relatively unchanged?

Jersey Fled म्हणाले...

maybe I missed something. What happens when you unplug the Tesla to take the kids to soccer practice?

And how does the Tesla get charged up in the first place?

Maybe thats why you have two Teslas.

tim maguire म्हणाले...

Powers hasn't thought this though--his electric car is an impediment, not an aid, to going off grid.

tim maguire म्हणाले...

It occurs to me now, he's not talking about going off the grid he's just going off the electrical grid. Is it possible The Times doesn't know what "off the grid" means?

Danno म्हणाले...

Where do these people charge their pickup trucks so that they are charged and can run their household?

gilbar म्हणाले...

Lithium-ion batteries..costing $10,000 to $20,000 have replaced banks of lead acid batteries that used to cost tens of thousands of dollars

Now THAT is REAL SAVINGS!!! Instead of spending 'tens of thousands' of dollars, you can Now get by only spending $20,000!!! And! they're Low Maintenance! Of course, they wear out sooner, but Still!

Danno म्हणाले...

I am talking about a situation where the solar panels at the house do not create enough power to recharge the pickup truck. Say those days that are cloudy or the panels get covered in snow.

gilbar म्हणाले...

I'm saying that as a retired professor who, with her husband, just bought a Ford F-150.

You ARE their target market, that's for sure.. However, they are talking about Ford F-150 HYBRIDS.. Is Yours a Hybrid? if not, it won't help. Many people down in Texas last year (with new F-150 Hybrids were very happy to find that they could use them as home generators ($80,000 home generators, but Still!)

Serious Question: For each Upper Class California couple, that decide that their $6,000,000 home should be 'off the grid'; how many couples decide to move to Montana?
(This is Yet Another Reason, to dislike Montana. Fortunately, Most of Wyoming is Too Scary for most Cali folk to consider.. Something about the Uranium mines i'd guess

NOTE: To any of you thinking about Wyoming..Just STOP! You'd HATE IT! It's TERRIBLE! The people are savages and it snows 14 months out of the year. The entire state is desert, littered with old Uranium mines, and Missile Silos. There are Rattle snakes, EVERYWHERE. And the bears ROUTINELY kill people (AND the bears target newcomers)

dbp म्हणाले...

Utilities are considered natural monopolies because of at least two things: First, it's inefficient to have more than one set of distribution infrastructure serving the same set of customers. Second, it's generally a rule that producing a utility (water, sewer, electricity, gas, garbage removal, etc.) provides efficiencies of scale. We give utilities a monopoly and they are regulated in terms of pricing, but it's hard to regulate quality and it doesn't help when regulators "lose the plot" and start demanding things unrelated to safety, reliability and cost.

Things like water, gas and electricity should be so cheap and reliable that it isn't worthwhile to try and produce them on your own. The fact that people are spending their own money to go off-grid, tells us that if you run a monopoly badly enough, you bring DIY into range for people. The same kind of thing is impossible to ignore in public education: Eventually, economies of scale and monopolies aren't enough to overcome fat, dumb and lazy.

gilbar म्हणाले...

rather than using their roofs to generate solar energy and feed it into the grid — make the grid even worse for everyone else?

You know what actually makes the grid 'worse for everyone else?'
People 'using their roofs to generate solar energy and feed it into the grid'

Imagine something, let's call it a widget. A store sells widgets to people who need them
Now imagine that The Law says that the store HAS TO buy widgets for the price it sells them
What happens to the store? THAT'S what will happen to 'the grid'

If people are allowed to Sell Back at the price that they Buy From,
you'd better hope MOST people do NOT Sell Back

David Begley म्हणाले...

“Poppe has signed on to a five-year term with the company, with a base annual salary of $1.35 million, according to a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. In addition, she will receive a one-time "make-whole" award of nearly 3 million restricted stock units and a one-time cash bonus of $6.6 million.”

How does this compare to Aaron Rodgers?

Enigma म्हणाले...

Wealthy folks cutting themselves off in a California utopia...story of California politics since Proposition 13 in 1978. Do not trust a word from the mouths of ANYONE who chooses to preserve the evil, corrupt status quo in California.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"American-made trucks"

Riiiight. With batteries made in . . .? With lithium mined in . . .?

Temujin म्हणाले...

We've seen a handful of solar panel conversions in our area. Just a few. Most people here are getting them only to heat their pools. A few have done the entire house. We had a recent whole-house Tesla system put in down the street. Between the panels and Tesla battery mounted in her garage, she's probably out $50k. I don't think I'd live long enough to make that back in off-the-grid savings.

That said, if the pricing came down one day, I would love to convert to solar. But then...I live on the Suncoast of Florida. We get as much or more intense sun days as any area of the US. Unlike, say, where I was born, in Michigan, which gets almost no sun in the winter months. It would not make sense for much of the country.

Regarding the California couple with a nice 5 acre spread with views. It costs over a million for a tiny old bungalow in most of California. Most people cannot afford this type of system. If it comes to getting a needed new truck vs solar panels...the truck wins.

rehajm म्हणाले...

Well I can’t see the story but what Ann quoted makes it sound like when the utility wants tens of thousands of dollars to allow you to connect an off grid solar system becomes competitive on cost alone. When tax rebates, incentives and not paying the utility are considered it could easily favor solar…

…and it’s not unreasonable for A CA middle class household to afford a few acres with a view of mountains. You’ll be away from
major cities in the central or northern parts of the state….

Jeff म्हणाले...

So the wealthy classes who dominate the nation's policy discussions and decisions are going buy their way out of suffering the consequences of those decisions, while the vast majority of the country, who are increasingly alienated from our political process and national institutions, will find their lives increasingly deteriorating from them.

That should turn out well.

Gabriel म्हणाले...

The start-up cost of going off the grid, if we use the $35,000 figure, would pay my current electric costs for 27 years. And if I went off-grid at that price I could not use electricity at the level which I currently do, so it would take a lot longer to pay off.

Mike of Snoqualmie म्हणाले...

Our new home has underground power from a nearby power pole. It cost us $6,000 for the electrician, $1,700 to Puget Sound Energy and $4,700 for trenching, $12,400 total. Distance from the power pole is about 125-ft. It'll be another $5,500 for permanent power.

California must have a huge number of fees to cost $78,00 for power installation.

bwebster म्हणाले...

I have a good friend and former colleague, a retired one-time Xerox engineer, who has had a largely self-sufficient solar power system at his rural Southern California home for many years, though he remains hooked up to the state power grid. Here's a post he made about a month ago:

I have a large solar system on my [location] home that used to generate 100% of our usage - thus my bill always zeroed out. Our usage has increased somewhat, but this month I received a bill for $427, only $91 of which was for electricity usage. The balance was: Public Purpose Programs (low income), rate "adjustments" to cover low-income subsidies (25% of my bill), competition transition charges, nuclear decommissioning, wildfire funds, transmission and distribution (fine with me), etc. Perhaps it is time to go off-grid via the [family name] Electric Company with this home? It had been a while since I looked at my bill. After all, solar is the "hero to the carbon constrained, patron saint of the petroleum afflicted, succor to the green, the near green, and the wannabe green."

Just like road-use taxes, they'll find a way to get you.

Howard म्हणाले...

Early adopters are always rich. If they don't adopt, technology doesn't evolve to become affordable to the masses. It's a feature of the free market capitalism structure. Instead of allowing it to foster jealous bourgeois emotional triggers perhaps be inspired by our fossil fuels free future for our grandkids. Less reliant on public utilities and foreign tyrants. It's a good thing.

Rusty म्हणाले...

Putting solar panels on your house isn't necessarily helping the grid. Building your own isolated power source is. Although it is out of reach for most working class Americans.

Glenn Howes म्हणाले...

I have been in the process of electrification of the house we moved into in 2020, started with heat pumps for the bedrooms, adding an electric hybrid water heater this week, and more heat pumps later in the year for the rest of the house. Then would come solar, and then would come batteries. On the one hand this is all quite expensive, on the other hand they will all, except maybe the batteries, pay for themselves within a decade, and remove my personal dependence on heating oil, which this morning is (oh my gosh) $5.39 a gallon when I paid $2.60 in the Fall of 2020. Of course the price of electricity has also gone up, from 18¢ a kWhr to 21¢, but putting in solar will insulate me from that.

Batteries, on the other hand, allow for piece of mind should the grid go down for an extended period of time and allow to be paid to help out the grid by selling capacity back to the electric company when they need surge capacity. The problem here is the last bit of extra capacity needed to go completely off grid. More batteries, more solar panels to go to a situation where you can go weeks of cloudy winter weather. I don’t expect to be doing that.

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

Yes. What's your point? It is the NYT.

Owen म्हणाले...

Putting solar panels on the grid will destabilize the grid. The power is intermittent and also needs to be converted from DC to AC and , I am told, rectified to make the wave-form and phase compatible with grid power. Bottom line it is more expensive and less efficient than the promoters claim. And even if it were cheap and “clean,” it could never replace base load power from nuclear, hydro and —yup— fossil fuel.

What we really need is distributed (city level) production of electricity from next-generation nuclear: clean, reliable, modular, safe. No meltdowns, little or no waste. And —if the regulators get off their backsides— cheap.

TaeJohnDo म्हणाले...

I always laugh at articles and people who suggest we should all... become self sufficient, live sustainably, ditch our car, grow our own food, live off grid, etc. Most of the time people don’t have the skills, resources or money to do so, and even if we all did, the world doesn’t work that way – someone has to live in the city and do what they do to live and drive society. We have friands who have a nice little Airstream they haven’t used since they moved to a piece of river bottom property with good soil and plenty of water. They do grow much of their own food – and can’t take time off from it. We have solar panels on our house, but no batteries to store the energy, and in our case which is true most of the time with homes served by a utility company here in NM, the power generated by our panels go to the grid first, so if there is a blackout in the area, it affects us too. (If we had batteries, a very expensive option, the power would charge them first, then go to the grid.)

tolkein म्हणाले...

Why does it cost $20,000 just to connect a new home? Is this why housing is unaffordable in California? After adding on permits and all the other costs incurred before starting actually building.

Scott Gustafson म्हणाले...

“There has to be a grid, doesn't there”

Yes, for most of us that can’t produce enough of our own power. Further electric power is a service and like all services is produced and consumed simultaneously.

“and won't people going off the grid — rather than using their roofs to generate solar energy and feed it into the grid — make the grid even worse for everyone else?”

No. We have more than enough power when the sun shines and it is increasing every year. What we don’t have is enough power in the evening and early morning. That means switching on and off on demand sources which is expensive and rapidly wears out equipment.

Christy म्हणाले...

So, we become increasingly dependent upon a resource mined elsewhere?

Ampersand म्हणाले...

Now that government (and of course public utilities are the government) has revealed its low degree of competence, and high tolerance for inconvenience to the public, people who can afford the choice to escape the grid will do so.
Relatedly, has anyone noticed that the DNC's great squanderfest of building a vast array of expensive electric car chargers to be supplied by DNC contributors has neglected to provide for the enormous quantity of electromagnetic waves that will be required to make them work? It's as if you were going to fix a drought by installing lots of expensive faucets.
Next, the Biden administration will be increasing wheat production by watering the crops with Gatorade. You know, because of the electrolytes.

Sella Turcica म्हणाले...

The rich and powerful have always hated and resented a prosperous middle class. They are currently trying to destroy it through lousy but government-mandated schools, defunding the police, making energy expensive and unreliable, etc. Their ultimate goal is to sit in their gated mansions (or skyscrapers) with their own private schools, security, and energy supply, looking down on the teeming illiterate masses struggling with anarchy and blackouts.

Skeptical Voter म्हणाले...

Ah those lithium ion batteries that need no maintenance. Until they catch fire. And those fires are virtually impossible to put out. There were a lot lithium ion batteries in those Porsches--which caught fire--and eventually sunk a ship carrying 4,000 high end cars a couple of weeks ago. The sinking left a lot of folks who'd preordered Porsches, Lamborghinis and Bentleys disappointed. Their cars now sleep with the fishes off Portugal.

अनामित म्हणाले...

Does that article discuss whether these new off the grid homes are in fire country?

JK Brown म्हणाले...

The idea of using the electric vehicle as part of your home off-grid energy system is confusing to me. Yes, they could offer storage, but they don't offer that much storage and that energy is stored to permit the vehicle to operate. Now a diesel-electric vehicle...i.e., a mobile generator.

But even the F-150 electric vehicle with inverter is proving illogical. Such vehicles are proffered as truck for contractors, who generally are not on-site without interruption and when they go off to bid on another job, meet with the myriad of regulators, etc., they are taking the "generator" with them shutting down the job site.

In any case, I suspect these cut ties with the grid types are going to run into the laws requiring they tie into the utility service. They bring in electricity, city water, sewer, everyone must tie in or get sued by the utility. Or at least pay the monthly fee. If enough people opt out, the way these systems are financed collapses and the costs go up dramatically.

The Drill SGT म्हणाले...

""Lithium-ion batteries weighing as little as 30 pounds, requiring minimal maintenance and costing $10,000 to $20,000 have replaced banks of lead acid batteries that used to cost tens of thousands of dollars"

Telll Musk he's buying the wrong batteries. Tesla batteries weigh 1000 pounds. These are 30 times more efficient? who knew.

As for off grid... No gas line? Electric heat and AC? Got a plan for keeping snow off the panels?

I have news. Born in northern CA, and living in rural Oregon. Places with views of snow capped mountains get snow.

The F-150 hybrid is the smart part, I expect downplayed in the article

Paddy O म्हणाले...

They don't need to have hefty incomes. They could easily be transplants from the Bay Area, where selling their home there in this market purchased a lot of space and creativity in other parts of the state. Also, given that PG&E has been super aggressive about shutting off power to its customers in any weather event after it was liable for the devastating fires in NorCal a few years ago, being off the grid as an at-home online worker isn't eco or doomsaying, it really makes a lot of practical sense. And PG&E and SCE (so cal edison) pass the costs of upgrades and lawsuits onto customers.

Relying on electricity outside of urban areas is really risky unless someone has their own system in place.

If I was building from scratch I'd try to be off the grid as much as possible too, just for the reliability and cost saving.

Earnest Prole म्हणाले...

Allow me to explain Northern California socioeconomics to you: When an older couple of modest means sells their house and move from the Bay Area to the Sierra foothills, they can afford to purchase, outright with cash, two larger houses with far more property than they owned in the Bay Area.

mikee म्हणाले...

Althouse, you are experiencing a well known psychological phenomena known as the Baader–Meinhof phenomenon, a frequency illusion or frequency bias. One notices something more often after noticiing it for the first time, leading to an illusion of high frequency occurrence for the thing. Your new F-150 has opened your eyes to their existence, and now you see them everywhere.

It happened to me when I got an old Mercury Grand Marquis. Suddenly I saw them everywhere.

That the trucks are popular and occur often enough to appear even in an article about off grid electricity is one thing. That you noticed at all about the trucks in the article shows you thought a Chevy might have been the way to go, instead of the Ford. I've owned both. Chevy's are better.

Jon म्हणाले...

I think it is worse than you realize - if I had to bet, I would bet that the people here "going off grid" were generally for the policies that they are fleeing - e.g., the policies in regards to clearing brush in the outback which make the places so susceptible to fire and otherwise making it difficult for the utilities.
If you are in part fleeing the policies you are vastly in favor of, you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Or so it seems to me.

Tina848 म्हणाले...

Years ago I toured a farm in Mexico as part of a business trip. The poor farmer used a small solar panel attached to a pole to power the pump on his well. It also powered the UV light to make the water safe. A few other solar panels provided electricity for his house. This was in Baja California in the late 1990s. He did not have a flush toilette, just a latrine. Amazing what 3 solar panels can do. He also had a small wind mill like in the old western farms from the 1920s.

It doesn't have to be expensive - unless you want to charge your Tesla.

Leland म्हणाले...

I support your sense of it Althouse. I'm not living off the grid, but after the unreliability of the Energy Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT), I added a backup generator to the home that can power it if the grid goes out. A neighbor down the street went with solar on the roof with 2 Tesla power walls, so they can go off the grid now, but would then lose the ability to sell excess to the grid. This isn't coming from a place of being hip or waiting for doom. It is simply about being able to afford such systems and having the place to put them.

My solution is only $12k. The neighbor's solar solution was about $70k to $80k. The dollar value was less an issue to me than the fact that I'll need to replace my roof about halfway through the life of my solar panels bolted above it. When I look into replacing my roof, I'll look at switching to solar. Now and into the future, I will still have the back-up generator when the weather and the grid don't cooperate.

hstad म्हणाले...

"Frustrated With Utilities, Some Californians Are Leaving the Grid/Citing more blackouts, wildfires and higher electricity rates, a growing number of homeowners are choosing to build homes that run entirely on solar panels and batteries" (NYT)." All of this is true! As a California resident of many decades, this has been an ongoing issue (blackouts and brownouts). But through personal experience, what the WaPo article doesn't address is people are also resorting to buying gas generators (like Hondas) as a backup and a resorting to burning wood, paper, etc., which increases pollution far greater vs., generating plants using coal or oil. This is what happens when the "Climate Change" B.S. is the sole meme in your mind.

Quaestor म्हणाले...

Living "off the grid" is an upper-class conceit, just another odiferous cloud of smug hovering over Southern California that will dissipate sooner or later to be replaced by another.

MadisonMan म्हणाले...

requiring minimal maintenance and costing $10,000 to $20,000
Life time of the batteries? I suppose you could just sell when you approach that horizon and let the new owners deal.
I am very skeptical of the blithe assurance that they require minimal maintenance.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

'But I like to try to understand what kind of people these articles are about. Are they economically privileged and choosing to cut themselves off from the problems of the ordinary people who are stuck with the electric company?'

My wife and me are such people...

We bought a nice house 25 years ago that has quadrupled in value.

I retired many years ago, but my wife works for companies that provide lots of equity along with pay.

We have talked about building a house in a nice part of CA, and if we do that, I will do everything I can to get it off the grid, including well water and maybe even satellite internet.

It will be expensive, but I don't think as much as you might believe.

And it's only getting cheaper every day...

Jupiter म्हणाले...

"Lithium-ion batteries weighing as little as 30 pounds, requiring minimal maintenance and costing $10,000 to $20,000 have replaced banks of lead acid batteries that used to cost tens of thousands of dollars, could weigh thousands of pounds and needed regular upkeep."

So now, the batteries that cost tens of thousands, need regular upkeep, and eventually stop working are a lot lighter. But now the tens of thousands go to the Chikes. What's not to like?

Jupiter म्हणाले...

What do you want with an F-150? Just curious. I guess you could use it to haul your bikes around.

John Holland म्हणाले...

Layers and layers of privilege:

1) Sunny southern geography with low rainfall / cloud cover. This all-solar idea doesn't work at all in, say, Wisconsin, where the sun is the wrong angle for 1/3 of the year to collect enough solar power for anything beyond recharging your iPad, and you have cloudy/partially sunny days 6 months of the year, and you have to use a lot of energy to heat your home or freeze to death.

2) Suitable land. Got a lot on the north side of a hill? Too bad; it'll be in shade for half the daylight hours, even more if your neighbors have tall trees.

3) Suitable zoning. You probably want those batteries in a separate outbuilding, in case of fire. Google "Tesla garage fire" for fun stories about living under the same roof as a gigantic lithium battery pack. Does your local county give construction permits for such outbuildings?

I could go on. This is obviously a NYT lifestyle piece, not an informative article for a life plan.

But back to the (under)story: the California electric grid, once one of the best in the world, has been deliberately sabotaged by politicians and "clean energy" grifters, aided by green activists to give it the necessary moral veneer. "Renewables" is the Florida Swampland Swindle of the 21st century. If the greening of the grid was so wonderful, no-one would even think of spending 10s or hundreds of thousands to disconnect.

The best privilege might be to spend your "off-the-grid" budget on a plan to get out of California. You could do off-grid in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nevada ... probably for a fraction of the cost and hassle and (maybe) without so much government-mandated insanity.

Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...

I think that Teslas in an off grid house are ridiculous. They face the usual EV problems, but are even more tightly coupled to the solar panels because there is no grid on which backup power can be fired up at night. Besides, the Teslas (Teslae?) that are ubiquitous around (we have a plague of them here in our neighborhood - 4 Teslae in the 3 houses surrounding us) appear that they would be horrible on less than asphalt roads. Ann and her husband’s brand new F-150 would do great. If you are on a big enough plot of land (e.g. 5 acres in the article) to have enough room for enough solar, then you almost assuredly don’t have city street, or even county roads, right up to your garage.

Off grid is fairly popular in NW MT, where we spend the other half year every year. Typically, it utilizes solar with propane powered generators as backup, plus well and septic. This is what is meant in MLS entries disclosing that a house is “off grid”. You have to live outside the city limits to make it work - but that is just fine for many. One additional reason that overhead power lines are not always pragmatic there is that occasionally we will get winds stiff enough to blow down trees - and these coniferous trees are bigger and taller than the ones I grew up with west of Denver. Last winter, on about a dozen acres in my subdivision, I lost maybe a half dozen of them (they are thick enough that you don’t really notice any new gaps - I just had to have them cut up and hauled away because of the pesky attorneys). Any one of them had the potential of taking out residential power lines.

Interesting to me is that the other major modern necessity is phone and high speed Internet. This, in the past, was provided by local telephone companies, with the cost of burying the phone lines (that also provide DSL) being paid by everyone else in the country, on their phone bills. DSL, esp in more remote locations, is typically fairly slow. Our phone company in MT is slowly bringing in fiber ( again paid for by the rest of you - thank you), but those truly living off grid can’t really expect to see it that soon. Interestingly though, the same guy who gave us Teslae, is also in the process of giving those living off grid (or in war torn Ukraine) high speed Internet with his StarLink system. Something for those whose lifestyles make EVs practical, and those who live too sparsely to make them practical.

John henry म्हणाले...

won't people going off the grid — rather than using their roofs to generate solar energy and feed it into the grid — make the grid even worse for everyone else?

Feeding solar, and wind, into the grid causes a lot of problems. The smaller the scale, the more the problems. A 50MW solar farm will have more sophisticated management capabilities than a 10KW residential system but both cause a lot of problems, instability and cost to the grid:

First there is a fundamental difference between natural AC electricity generated by rotating machinery and synthetic AC inverted from DC. It has to do with the wave forms being different and the way voltage leads amperage in natural vs synthetic. Look up VoltAmpsReactive (VAR) or power factor for more detailed info. Somehow VARs need to be created for the utility. This can be done with a capacitor but who pays for and maintains the capacitor? Where is it located and so on. The lack of VARs can be dealt with but adds another layer of complexity and points of failure and inefficiency. As a greater proportion of the grid is fed by synthetic AC, this will become a bigger, potentially huge problem. Some say that it may even become insurmountable.

A rotating generator has a huge amount of metal in rotation. This serves as a flywheel, smoothing out variations as the generator responds to load changes. There is no flywheel in solar.

Solar energy is highly unpredictable in output. A sudden thunderstorm could take generation from 100% to 0% in a few seconds. This means that utilities much have backup power, typically expensive, fast response, gas turbines running at all times whether the houses are feeding power or not. If the solar is feeding power, they will be running at full synchronous speed, though at little or no load. That is still a lot of fuel consumed. A lot of capital expense building and maintaining the generators. Who should pay for this? The solar generators or the utility ratepayers in general?

Many states require "net metering" for solar installations. There are variations in different states but essentially it means that the utility pays the residential solar owner the same amount as it sells power for. So it might pay 10c/kwh during the day when the rooftop is generating more power than is used. It will then charge 10c/kwh at night when the solar owner is taking power. Effectively the utility is acting as a battery. The problem is that the variable cost of the electricity may 1c/kwh with the rest fixed cost of generators, transformers, power lines, billing offices and all the other things that make up the total cost of a KWH. Essentially, under net metering the residential genarator is stealing from their neighbors.

Wisconsin requires net metering for installations up to 20KW. Puerto Rico required net metering but we also have it capped at 5%. If we ever get to 5%, it will change to "avoided cost" the 1cent vs 10 cents.

Others here can come up with other problems that interconnected solar and other small power causes to the grid. The point is that no, we are not better off connected.

John LGBTQBNY Henry

John henry म्हणाले...

As to positive benefits of off grid:

If a utility is running at capacity, they may need to add generators to meet demand. A household completely off the grid helps them avoid the need to spend billions on a new generating plant.

OTOH, and I think the point you were making, some utilities may be way below capacity and losing customers hurts.

John LGBTQBNY Henry

PM म्हणाले...

When a nearby fire downs the power lines, your EV truck can keep your fridge and lights working. Cool. When the fire and gets close and you need to escape, you just load the truck and then the truck...um...the truck...

Menahem Globus म्हणाले...

Temujin said..."I live on the Suncoast of Florida."

Greetings from Redington Shores.

John henry म्हणाले...

One other problem I did not see mentioned in the comments is that the utility system is designed for 1 way flow. Generator to light bulb. It is not designed to flow the other way.

It will, but it is not designed to and doesn't like it.

John LGBTQBNY Henry

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

'I am talking about a situation where the solar panels at the house do not create enough power to recharge the pickup truck. Say those days that are cloudy or the panels get covered in snow.'

This will obviously only be feasible in certain climates. Even then, there will be times when drawing from PG&E, etc. is unavoidable.

The point would be to minimize those times...

John henry म्हणाले...

I question why Lithium Ion batteries in a residential installation. Size and weight should not be a consideration.

I just looked up pricing on new forklift batteries and found 24 volt, 1,000amphour new batteries for $4,000.

2 of these would provide 48kwh/day or 1440 KWH/month. That is a bit less than what I use even with A/C running a lot of the time and lectric stove.

I forgot to check if these were sealed or not but even unsealed, maintenance is once a month check and pour some distilled water in if needed.

They are recyclable and so with a turn in credit, replacement in 4-5 years might cost half of new.

And, most importantly, they don't catch fire.

So I question the battery cost in the article. Along with the wisdom of LI batteries where not strictly needed.

John LGBTQBNY Henry

rehajm म्हणाले...

I think that Teslas in an off grid house are ridiculous. They face the usual EV problems, but are even more tightly coupled to the solar panels because there is no grid on which backup power can be fired up at night

I was assuming the vehicle was only part of the storage plan and that these systems had a Powerwall or two in addition to the vehicle batteries. With only the vehicle for power storage you’re leading some kind of camping-like existence electricity wise…

Paddy O म्हणाले...

While having Teslas off the grid doesn't make immediate sense, because it's one more thing to draw power, if the property is far away from a town, relying on gas itself doesn't make a lot of sense.

Use a lot of gas to get to a gas station, then drive back home, just to tour the area around one's house? Can't make gas at home. A lot of those rural areas get a lot of sunshine all year. Here in the SoCal mountains where I live, above San Bernardino, we get 287 days of sun a year on average. I'd be all in on solar even now, except we have really tall trees blocking our south/sun facing direction.

Working from home means they don't have a regular commute, so the car is able to stay charged.

John henry म्हणाले...

Bruce,

I get my internet from John Malone/Liberty Cable and am satisfied. I am really excited about the Starlink and will likely sign up when it becomes available later this year. For reasearch purposes if nothing else.

Even more exciting is that Musk has already developed a phone (called for some irrational reason the "Pi") that works with Starlink and is the size of a typical cellphone.

BTW: Happy Pi day

John LGBTQBNY Henry

Mike of Snoqualmie म्हणाले...

Our new home will have a 500-gal propane tank and a 22KW generator. We're in a rural area and are likely to be the last to get power restored after a storm. Combined cost will be $14.5K, but worth it. No solar panels.

The Drill SGT म्हणाले...

"Others here can come up with other problems that interconnected solar and other small power causes to the grid. The point is that no, we are not better off connected.

John LGBTQBNY Henry"

short version:

home solar forces the power company to buy your power, even when it doesn't want it because the government directs it, yet those same solar supplying rate payers want what they want from the grid instantly when they want it. Thus requiring backup, eg spinning gas plants, with double staffing, and capital expenses.

shorter version. Solar homes are a tax on poor rate payers

JK Brown म्हणाले...

Some utilities are now moving to charge solar homeowners for being able to dump their excess production onto the grid. Such feeds interfere with smooth operation and endanger line crews, as power is coming from two sources.

To go totally off grid, people need their solar/wind source, maybe some batteries to smooth the stochastic nature and a diesel or gas generator for the long down periods. There is an Iron battery that is showing promise that could be useful for home energy storage. To heavy for most application, but for a stationary situation, with relatively cheap materials and recycling...

Earnest Prole म्हणाले...

What do you want with an F-150? Just curious. I guess you could use it to haul your bikes around.

Put a camper on the back and you’re an air-conditioned gypsy.

I'm going home
And when I want to go home, I'm going mobile
Well I'm gonna find a home on wheels, see how it feels,
Goin' mobile
Keep me moving

I can pull up by the curb,
I can make it on the road,
Goin' mobile
I can stop in any street
And talk with people that we meet
Goin' mobile
Keep me moving, mmm

Out in the woods
Or in the city
It's all the same to me
When I'm driving free
The world's my home
When I'm mobile, beep beep

Play the tape machine
Make the toast and tea
When I'm mobile
Well, I can lay in bed with only highway ahead
When I'm mobile

Keep me moving
Keep me moving
Over fifty
Keep me groovin'
Just a hippie gypsy
Come on move now
Movin'
Keep me movin' yeah
Keep me movin', movin', movin', yeah
Movin' yeah
Mobile, mobile, mobile, mobile, mobile, mobile, mobile

I don't care about pollution
I'm an air-conditioned gypsy
That's my solution
Watch the police and the taxman miss me!
I'm mobile!
Mobile, mobile, mobile

n.n म्हणाले...

A toxic pack from recovery, to processing, to spontaneous combustion, to reclamation, energized by intermittent/renewables, the Green blight? A niche solution at best. One step forward, two steps backward at worst.

n.n म्हणाले...

charge solar homeowners for being able to dump their excess production onto the grid

The unsynchronized dumps of intermittents/renewables could be buffered, but would require additional investments by either the consumers (i.e. utilities) or producers (e.g. homeowners), which thus far have been obfuscated through shared/shifted responsibility.

Gospace म्हणाले...

Tina848 said...
Years ago I toured a farm in Mexico as part of a business trip. The poor farmer used a small solar panel attached to a pole to power the pump on his well. It also powered the UV light to make the water safe. A few other solar panels provided electricity for his house. This was in Baja California in the late 1990s. He did not have a flush toilette, just a latrine. Amazing what 3 solar panels can do. He also had a small wind mill like in the old western farms from the 1920s.


Doesn't have an electric range, microwave, 60" TV, dishwasher.... Yes, you can live with just a few solar panels, but not a typical USA middle class lifestyle. Well, not even a USA lower class lifestyle.

Our wonderful forward thinking all knowing fully Democrat run state government in the Empire of New York presided over by Dictator Hochul is aiming to require all new home construction be all electric by 2024. Meanwhile, our wonderful forward thinking all knowing fully Democrat run state government in the Empire of New York presided over by Dictator Hochul is trying to shut down all nuclear power electric power plants. Guess the plan is to power the state with magical unicorn farts.

Michael K म्हणाले...

Combined cost will be $14.5K, but worth it. No solar panels.

Solar makes about as much sense in Washington as it does in Germany. Anybody who has spent a summer in Germany knows the Greens are crazy.

It makes better sense in Arizona but I am still not buying.

John Holland म्हणाले...

Some here are discussing two benefits of roof-top solar:

1) Subsidy from the utility co. for installing panels & buying your power, greatly magnifying ROI

2) power for your house when the utility power goes down.

Depending on where you live, it may not be possible to combine the two. Up here in Toronto Canada, for example, if you connect your panels to the utility to get the cash, your panels become, legally, an operative part of the utility, and they control them. 100% of your generated power goes to the grid, not your house. In the event of a power outage, your panels are automatically disconnected, and cannot be used to power your house. Why? Because most power outages are caused by downed power lines, and the utility doesn't want their line workers handling what they think is a dead cable but is actually "live" because it still has 20 KW from residential solar panels. As we say in Canuckistan, when you take the Queen's shilling ...

So up here you can either have off-grid solar completely on your own dime available during utility outages, OR solar-subsidized utility power (which, when you look at your utility bill, is really a subsidy from your non-solar neighbors -- suckers!!) but not both.

BUMBLE BEE म्हणाले...

Steel roof or shingle for the solar panels? I used to laugh at the Jetsons. Articles like this one are quite fun. Fred and Barney car pooled too.

Rabel म्हणाले...

"But I like to try to understand what kind of people these articles are about."

At least three of the people in this article are people with a financial interest in the promotion of "off-grid" electrical installations.

Also, they appear to be people who cut down a lot of trees judging from the pictures.

Also, the guy with two Tesla's is a senior engineer at Oracle who designed and had installed an industrial sized system that is far beyond the reach of even the well-to-do.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-02-18/an-oracle-exec-s-300-000-escape-from-an-unreliable-power-grid

The sloppiness of his wiring is worrisome. I could loan him some zip ties.

JAORE म्हणाले...

Energy independence would be a wonderful thing. Both economically and to NOT be held hostage by countries less foolish than ours. Pretty clear when even the Germans are rethinking things.

We are unwilling to be energy independent with fossil fuels because of the religious fervor of Climate Change (Blessed be its Name).

We are not willing to increase (non-carbon spewing) nuclear power because of greeny fear porn.

We are going to continue to penalize petroleum and gas production.

We will continue the accelerating drain on the treasury to subsidize green energy including F-150 hybrids.

So solar and wind it is.... Wind doesn't always blow. Wind sometimes blows too hard. Sun shines less than half the time. We don't have close to the electrical power needed to go to all EVs. But still the WISH is that EVs and other soar/wind fantasies will do the trick.

Is our electrical grid ready (or likely to be ready).... Nope.
Do we have a storage solution capable of making up large scale times of too little or too strong winds or low sunshine?... Nope.
Do we have sufficient scarce minerals to build the sunshine and gentle winds fantasy. Nope. But China comes closest. So much for that "independence thing.)

Transition? Nah. That would mean we'll continue substantial carbon based energy while (if) the wind/solar infrastructure is enhanced. Can't have that. It implies we still have the potential for substantial oil/gas production as, inevitably, the green power fails to deliver.

But there might be unicorns! Sure, there could be technological breakthroughs that could skew the above. And there might be a pot o' gold at the end of the rainbow. But it isn't a good policy bet. Of course a wrold wide depression would cut energy use a lot. That is sub-optimal.

Side question: Will China and India follow through on Climate Change targets? Bhwahahahahaha. You're killin' me. China continues to ramp up non-green energy.

And a handful of off-the-grid guys with hybrid pick ups will make zippidy-do-dah to change these facts.

Jupiter म्हणाले...

If it's not broke,

FIX IT!

Jim Gust म्हणाले...

About a year ago I decided to buy a propane back-up generator. After the down payment, I was told the units were backordered 12 months, because so many people in California were buying them.

Happily, I got it fully installed in about 10 months. As expected, no blackouts since then, it only turns on to self test every week for five minutes.

Gabriel म्हणाले...

@John Henry: just looked up pricing on new forklift batteries and found 24 volt, 1,000amphour new batteries for $4,000. 2 of these would provide 48kwh/day or 1440 KWH/month.

I'm not making sense of what you are trying to calculate here: 48 kw H / day is just another way of saying 2 kW, which would tell you much you could run at one time, not how long anything would last.

Are you trying to calculate the energy stored in the batteries, or what? The two batteries together store 48 kW-hr, which would let you run 10 100W bulbs for 48 hours straight, which is probably fine unless you need heat, AC, hot water or you want to cook. Assuming the batteries let you discharge at 1000 W.

Curious George म्हणाले...

"Mike of Snoqualmie said...
Our new home has underground power from a nearby power pole. It cost us $6,000 for the electrician, $1,700 to Puget Sound Energy and $4,700 for trenching, $12,400 total. Distance from the power pole is about 125-ft. It'll be another $5,500 for permanent power."

I had 200A service brought to my shop at my lake home in northern Wisconsin. The utility, WPS, has service estimator come out to determine cost. A couple of weeks later got the estimate in the mail. Free. Turns out they give the first 125 free, I was within that. They even asked aerial or buried. Uh, buried please. I did have to take out a few small trees and a couple bushes so they could use a trencher.

bobby म्हणाले...

I'm currently living off the grid, with solar panels, huge batteries, meters, wires, inverters . . .

I can tell you for a fact that living off the grid is fine, but it's a lot more expensive and a lot less convenient than living on the grid. Living on the grid is what thousands of years of human development brought us, and it's wonderful.

I would love to wake up someday and see a transmission line coming in.

garrison म्हणाले...

We have 5 panels and generate 3mw/hrs a year. We pay about $10/mon to access the utility. As of a couple months ago our total elec/gas/water/sewage/garbage bill was $141/mon. Pretty positive it's gone up, but still reasonable for being in the highest priced utility in America. It made sense for us and many people to spend the $4,500 to install a pv system. The CPUC is looking at ratepayer equity, but will give a 10 year break for ROI purposes.
Off the grid makes no sense to me.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

dbp, at 7:53 a.m. says all that needs to be said.

madAsHell म्हणाले...

Solar homes are a tax on poor rate payers

Yeah.....sure you can generate your own power, but the maintenance cost doesn't make sense.

1. The panels don't last forever, and they are full of exotic chemicals from the periodic table with large atomic numbers. Tell me how we manage that?
2. Roofs don't last forever. Twice as much work to remove, and replace the panels.

I agree that charge-back from the power company is a subsidy.

Don't get me started about cash-back credit cards!!! It's the same people that frauded for Biden.

MadTownGuy म्हणाले...

Danno said...

"I am talking about a situation where the solar panels at the house do not create enough power to recharge the pickup truck. Say those days that are cloudy or the panels get covered in snow."

The public library in Wisconsin Rapids makes much of their rooftop solar array. Last I knew, there was a display in the first floor reading room showing the amount of power generated each day, as a bar chart. On sunny days the bars went up to about halfway up the page. On mild overcast days (total cloud cover but relatively bright), the bars only went about a quarter of the way up. On heavy overcast or stormy days, the bars were down near the bottom of the page. Snow cam be cleared off; ice is a bit harder, but you can't do a thing about cloud cover.

Mason G म्हणाले...

"Frustrated With Utilities, Some Californians Are Leaving the Grid/Citing more blackouts, wildfires and higher electricity rates, a growing number of homeowners are choosing to build homes that run entirely on solar panels and batteries"

Or, more honestly titled:

"Progressives Fuck Things Up, Attempt to Avoid the Consequences of Their Poorly Thought Out Choices"

n.n म्हणाले...

I thought it was interesting that a Chevrolet Silverado and a Ford F-150 popped up in this article.

When the wind blows out of range, the sun shines at oblique angles, start your engines.

n.n म्हणाले...

When the fire and gets close and you need to escape, you just load the [ICE] truck and then the truck...um...the truck...

The five to ten minute, off-grid cross-country super charge and go.

n.n म्हणाले...

shorter version. Solar homes are a tax on poor rate payers

Shared responsibility that consider neither cost nor price and conflate both.

John henry म्हणाले...

Gabriel

2 1000AH 24v batteries will provide 48kwh per full charge cycle

Cost $8,000

A tesla power wall provides 13.5kwh.

It costs $8,500.

They throw in the ability to turn your home into a smoking pile of ash with it's very own EPA toxic site listing for free.

Seriously, standard lead acid batteries seem the way to go especially for stationary applications.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

now imagine a geology where there is a gasoline-table just like we have water-table : all we would need is a wind mill to prime the pumps to bring up precious fluids to support CA style living.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

and ...
we can all try to drink each other's milk-shakes

Gabriel म्हणाले...

@John Henry: The Powerwall stores enough energy to run a vacuum cleaner for 10 hours and the batteries let you run it for 35. Fine as far as that goes, the batteries store more energy.

The Powerwall lets you draw 6-8 kW continuous load, which would be like running 5 vacuum cleaners simultaneously. If the batteries can do that too, then it would be silly to buy the Powerwall. But it's possible the batteries don't let you draw that much power in which case they might be less useful than the Powerwall despite storing more energy.

Old and slow म्हणाले...

Lithium ion batteries can be discharged nearly 100% without damage, unlike lead acid batteries that only should be discharged 50%. They also are rated for approximately 10,000 charge cycles as compared to 2,500 for lead acid. The fire hazard would be a concern for me, but price and performance tend to favor the lithium batteries. What I would really prefer is a stable and affordable electric supply grid. Seems more civilized...

John henry म्हणाले...

Gabriel,

I stated that they are standard forklift batteries. And fairly big ones.

That means they can handle large instantaneous loads like lifting a pallet or starting an air conditioner. They can also handle heavy continuous loads like schlepping pallets around a warehouse.

Most forklift batteries are sized to do that continuously for 8 hours. Can the power wall?

Sound like you are thinking a vacuum cleaner needs a kw or so. That must be some vacuum cleaner.

Jim Howard म्हणाले...

If you are a little bit handy with tools you can do your own solar roof for far less than what one costs retail.

This fellow can show you how.

https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse

Gabriel म्हणाले...

@John Henry:Sound like you are thinking a vacuum cleaner needs a kw or so. That must be some vacuum cleaner.

Take at look at yours some time. Here's a selection from Home Depot, check their ratings.

Normal vacuum cleaners draw 10-12 A at 120V AC = 1.2 to 1.4 kW.

lgv म्हणाले...

Ha Ha. Not to restate the obvious as already noted, these type articles ignore or downplay the obvious shortcomings. If there were no shortcomings, more people would be doing it.

Oh, sure, lead acid batteries take up space and require more maintenance, but are still way cheaper. I've seen tiny islands with one house powered by a shed full of lead acid batteries. Lith-Ion is wonderful, except for the cost, useful life, fire hazard, and environmental concerns with Lithium, along with sourcing issues.

Drive your F150 to a charging station, fill it up with electricity and bring it home and run you HVAC and electric furnace off the truck. Sure.

They should survey the people who have done this. I bet they are all white people, therefore this is racist, white privilege solution.

hstad म्हणाले...

This is a funny classic NYT article. "Costs as much as a Chevy Silverado" - LOL. They don't even hide their agenda. AA please advise the NYT that most of our population can't afford a "Chevy Silverado". Evidence, the 'Used Car Marketplace", for lower income people, sold 40 million vehicles in 2020 vs. new cars sold of only 2 million. Most people can't afford a Chevy Silverado. I have solar panels on my home in California and am happy. But most people are renters, even in California. Consequently, this article is just that - pure propaganda.