I think once you've been informed that something makes some other people feel bad, you need a good reason to keep doing it.
I learned the n-word was bad when I was a little child doing the "eeny meeny miney moe" rhyme, which in the early 1950s in Delaware had the n-word. As far as I knew, it was just another one of the nonsense words, like "miney" and "moe." Another child informed me that she had been taught that it makes "colored people" feel bad. I had no idea why this was so, no idea what it meant, but that was enough for me. I didn't want to make anybody feel bad. If there was a special group with a special sensitivity about the word, I just felt bad that I didn't know about it before, and I would never use it again. That's the kind of ethics I learned as a child.
Some sensitive people feel hurt, and that's enough to give up the word. I don't think it's enough to fire somebody who mentioned (but did not use) the word. It's about kindness.
Not disgust. I know you're saying "disgust" because you think you can disqualify me as an elitist.
I wish I'd written "I bet you're saying 'disgust'..." rather than "I know you're saying 'disgust'..." because I can't know another person's motives. I work hard to maintain a practice of avoiding making assertions of knowledge that I do not possess, but I don't catch them all. I do try.
Roughcoat emailed me (and gave me permission to print his email):
You said “I know you're saying 'disgust' because you think you can disqualify me as an elitist.”
No. That is not what I meant. The n-word disgusts ME and, by extension, the people who use it disgust me as well. That’s how I was raised. I thought you felt the same way. You saw hostile intent in what I posted. It wasn’t there. On the contrary, I was trying to communicate that I was on your side. I do not think of you as an elitist and I did not aim to disqualify you as an elitist. To repeat: the n-word is disgusting. People who deploy it in conversation are disgusting for doing so. I’ll have no truck them.
I responded:
Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate the clarification. I was raised within a tradition where we are called to love everyone, and I don't think Jesus modeled disgust of any kind.
Disgust is a big topic. Too bad I haven't had a tag for it (until just now), because I can see there is a lot of great material in the archive about disgust.
Back in 2004 (the first year of this blog), many of us were taking the Disgust Questionnaire (which you can see the beginning of here). In 2017, we discussed another questionnaire that did not merely diagnose how easily disgusted you are, it reported the results in political terms, based on some research that indicated that "conservatives are more disgust sensitive than liberals as a result of their concern with purity-related norms." The questionnaire declared me a Democrat.
But Democrats have expressed a great deal of disgust toward Trump: "Who’s to say that Democrats aren’t scoring victories because of the palpable feeling of disgust that attends this so-called president’s every utterance?"
More complexly: "The strong appeal of purity to committed conservatives helps explain why Trump’s supporters are not put off by his compulsive focus on disgust."Strange to me. I'm not a Catholic. Is "hate" a freakout word but "disgust" just fine? To me, disgust is worse than hate. Maybe. I'm not sure. Actions based on hate may be worse. The hater might act out in violence. Those whose insides roil with disgust — they shrink away, as from disease. If you disgust someone, you might count on them to stay away, but if they hate you, you're in danger. There's something so lowly about disgust.
Oh! Am I disgusted? Ha ha. But you see my point: What kind of person are you, if you feel disgust for other people? Isn't that the stuff of racism? Isn't that what makes you want to put half of your fellow citizens in a "basket of deplorables" where you won't have to see them?
पोस्ट्स
१४६ टिप्पण्या:
"I think once you've been informed that something makes some other people feel bad, you need a good reason to keep doing it."
90% of what the Left says makes most of the rest of us feel bad.
That doesn't stop them.
See, "deplorables", "Nazis", "racists", etc.
Rules have to be followed by all, if you want them followed by any
>>Althouse said...
"What kind of person are you, if you feel disgust for other people? Isn't that the stuff of racism? "<<
Normal and No.
The endless Black whining is getting tedious.
And that is how we get "safe spaces" at universities, conservative professors fired, etc. Because MAGA caps make them feel bad ...
I’m uncomfortable with black people using the word too. What’s the remedy?
Disgust is a normal emotion, as Ice Nine says. Just like its cousin Disdain.
I'm generally more disdainful than disgusted, but then I'm more intellectual than visceral in my view of others.
Narr
Exceptions abound
There is a huge difference between using a word that is pejorative AT people. Calling people by a name or adjective that is offensive. Of COURSE we should not do that. It is wrong.
However, the use of that same word in a context of explaining why it is wrong...or how the term came to be historically is not offensive. In fact, those who are offended by being called the "offensive" word should welcome the context of explanation and education to help people understand and stop using the word that is offensive.
Did I skirt around "the word" well enough in this explanation to not draw down the ire of the perpetually offended?
I hope so.
I think of disgust a ps a gutteral feeling you can’t control but it’s short lived and you can choose how to respond to it. Hate is what takes hold when you choose to ruminate on disgust (also rage, irritation, resentment, and other negative emotions.)
I’m not certain but I think this is the Catholic view. I am Catholic but haven’t seen this elaborated, it just seems consistent with other Catholic teachings.
Interestingy, I was at Bible study yesterday studying saints and St Francis of Assisi was the focus of the lesson. His conversion came about when he decided to overcome his disgust of lepers by embracing a man with leprosy. The entire rest of his life was shaped in that moment.
This is a little off the subject, but...
I looked at Drudge today. I rarely do that anymore, but for some reason I was curious.
I skipped the links at the top about impeachment and the events of Jan 6. I saw something of interest: "Massive teen brawl erupts at trampoline park." That took me to the news story at The Kansas City Star.
Damn. Teens these days.
The article included a link to the altercation on YouTube. It's here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig53ta1Lizc&t=17s
Hmmm. These teens have something in common with other teen participants in similar conflicts that I have heard about, in various places.
The comments under the video make for interesting, and sometimes comical, reading. For example:
"This is a superspreader event, for sure."
"It's Black History Month."
"What part of Wakanda was this?"
And this comment was a question I had as well:
"Who else 'knew' before seeing the video?"
I personally believe that beating the crap out of someone is worse than sayia particular word. Anyway, sorry to get off-topic.
"It's about consideration for people who could be hurt"
Except that, according to the Universal Theory of Progressive Instrumentalism, hurt and disgust are now prog tools, never invoked in good faith.
I support Althouse in protecting her blog, but the rationalizations that ignore the actual reality of the actual culture war simply aid and abet the prog attacks.
Are there any other words disallowed here for their odious history by Althouse? I ask because every other “bad” word I learned to avoid using as a polite child has been mainstreamed and I Iiterally cannot think of any other off limit words except for other terms considered racial/ethnic slurs. And there are exceptions there for discussion purposes, unlike you-know-what. Is this a one-word “list?”
Um, Jesus registered a whole bunch of disgust in his ministry years. Ever hear about when he evaluated the Pharisees praying style?
I’ve often thought Jesus’ disgust with the elite of his day was rooted in love: he had to hit them with a 2x4 to get their attention. But it was disgust
The use of the term "n-word" is infantile.
It is unsuitable for serious people. It is however suitable for scared people.
There is no reason to use the word in question. It is low class and unnecessary. Yes this blog needs to be protected from cancellation and I'm sure Althouse is aware of that.
The N discussion is not the threat. We saw the effort to protect the blog during the election scam. Althouse would not open a door to the fraud she knows is real. She saw it happen in her own back yard.
If Althouse put up a post hinting that she thought the election was fixed, the blog would be cancelled like Mike Lindell, Gateway Pundit, Trump, and anyone else who dares question Biden's installation.
In my area it was eeny meenie miney moe, catch a tiger by the toe....., catching a tiger being a dangerous thing. Didn't hear your version until well after turning 21.
I think once you've been informed that something makes some other people feel bad, you need a good reason to keep doing it.
I understand the nice foundation of this sentiment, but as shown by some other early comments, today the left is professionally dedicated to feeling bad about... everything. Your framing works within a shared culture, where most people feel broadly similar about most things. We don't have that anymore.
I think this still works for the n-word. Most normal people most of the time agree but that's about it. I won't get into the rap exception.
But we can't function under the current growing regime where merely saying something designated wokeists don't like makes them feel "unsafe" and must therefore be condemned and punished. So, we're dysfunctional.
Discretion is the rule, however few apply it.
I guess a lot of rappers are perpetually scared?
I suppose you probably shouldn’t use that Arab word for “infidel” that was the functional equivalent of that other word, in South Africa.
Crazy how an Arab word became a racial insult used by the Dutch-adjacent.
Oh and of course that NYT dude that got fired and had to wear the communist dunce cap, that's nuts. Intent matters to normal people.
No consideration for the word "spooge stooge" and the feelings of men though apparently. God the hypocrisy from worthless former professors who continue to suck of the teat of the taxpayer with their undeserved benefits and retirements. Apparently only the feelings of some people matter.
You might know the difference and might be able to delineate the meaning or wrongfulness of its use. But if you use the word according to your knowledge, but others not as understanding are offended, it is as Paul said:
So by your knowledge those weak believers for whom Christ died are destroyed. But when you thus sin against members of your family, and wound their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
Or as he said elsewhere: knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...I’m uncomfortable with black people using the word too. What’s the remedy?
I’m a fan of Mike (MJB Wolf)’s comments. Are you REALLY uncomfortable dude? I’m not. I don’t care. It’s their culture, their language. As a free speech advocate if they want to use it, go ahead.
"The endless Black whining is getting tedious."
"Getting" tedious? It passed tedious three decades ago.
This sensitivity for the feelings of others is commendable but insulting to the cohort in question since no such sensitivity is shown to other groups which have negative descriptors. Proving McWhorters point.
NYTrash WashCompost all merde
All liars
All worthless
https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1358889384888721413?s=20
"In my area it was eeny meenie miney moe, catch a tiger by the toe....., catching a tiger being a dangerous thing. Didn't hear your version until well after turning 21."
I also grew up with the "tiger" version--its consonance sounds better!
I also grew up with the "tiger" version--its consonance sounds better!
Ditto, and I grew up in SC in the '60s. Of course I also grew up middle-class, but still I never even knew there was another version until I was an adult.
Also, don’t forget about Quentin Tarantino movies. Much of the best dialogue is now officially unquotable.
But the thing that really grinds my gears, is that “our” cultural leaders on the Left have no problem describing the descendent of German Jewish Holocaust survivors as a “Nazi” because he happens to support President Trump, or is otherwise conservative. But apparently folks on the Right aren’t allowed to be offended about that sort of stuff. Or if we are, nobody cares.
The left's use of the word disgust comes with a projection of an obligation for the object of disgust. Like a fire hose or a star wars blaster the intent is to neutralize, to vaporize the object.
I reject it.
...and, as always with the left, comes the moral righteousness, no matter how obscene or violent or...disgusting the language of the left.
I reject it.
Not for nuthin', but the n-word has become MORE taboo as it has become LESS used. Except, of course, among the black community, where it is commonplace. There is danger in saying "this word offends people so good people won't use it." It's a lowest common denominator approach that contributes to the decay of language and free flow of communication.
You can say, "well, this word is special, so the slippery slope argument does not apply." But what's the support for that claim? Why is it special? And even if we all agree that it's special, you still have the problem of marking it out as being in a closed class. Because already, others are trying to put other words in that special class (just this week, we read about a smear campaign against someone who used the "r-word" (retard) in a discussion about Gamestop.
Now do a post on "redneck", "peckerwood" and "white trash".
We were also taught as children not to use ethnic slurs. But my father was inclined to use the word 'wop', as he seemed to have something against Italians. One day when I was about seven and my brother five, we were calling each other 'dirty Jap'. My horrified mother admonished us to never use that term. She said, "What if Hisako [a friend] were here and heard that. It would hurt her feelings". Of course, we felt properly contrite. Just as with the 'eeny meeny' example Althouse used, kids didn't seem to mentally apply the slur to actual people.
Young people are now being taught to be hurt by things they would not have been hurt by in the past, such as the utterance, with no ill intent, of certain words. The list, unsurprisingly, seems to be growing, because the people who declare those words off-limits know that controlling language is a necessary step in controlling thought.
Is acceding to each new addition to the list -- and the addition of usages that used to be considered benign -- a good thing?
"If there was a special group with a special sensitivity about the word, I just felt bad that I didn't know about it before, and I would never use it again."
There is a lot of simple decency in relating to others in that way. It's also a nice contrast to the attitude of Ms. Heffernan, the op-ed writer who had such a visceral (hatred?, disgust?) for her pro-Trump neighbors even after they plowed her driveway. Simplicity like decency is evidently for the deplorables, as long as it doesn't turn into another form of civility bullshit. In today's cancel culture, "special sensitivity" has sometimes been a tool to control and censor. Part of the answer (but only part) is figuring out when the "special sensitivity" is authentic and when it's just in service of something else. When there is a loud chorus shrieking in unison, it's most likely just civility bullshit.
"What kind of person are you, if you feel disgust for other people? Isn't that the stuff of racism? Isn't that what makes you want to put half of your fellow citizens in a "basket of deplorables" where you won't have to see them?" I think of it more in terms of caste rather than race - those who are deemed disgusting become the untouchables, always to be avoided and fit only to be cancelled. At least that's how it seems to play out today.
It's one thing to have banned words on a comment section where the worst thing that happens if used is that the comment is deleted and the user banned from commenting.
It's another thing to fire and blacklist from EVERYTHING. This is the stupid. And it burns.
Greg pretty much exposed the entire episode for the complete and absolute bullshit that it is.
Quentin Tarantino hasn’t been canceled. So you know...
No consideration for the word "spooge stooge" and the feelings of men though apparently.
First, it's a phrase, not a word. Second, it's "splooge stooge." Third, real men don't use the phrase "the feelings of men."
Why would a law school professor think he could get away with writing an exam question utilizing the forbidden word?
Mark Twain could not be reached for comment.
Now do a post on "redneck", "peckerwood" and "white trash".
As redneck peckerwood white trash I'll call my fellow Deplorables whatever the hell I feel like calling them.
You cannot make anyone do anything with your words.
Our feelings are chosen, not forced upon us by others. Adults have agency, and that includes control over our feelings, whether we exercise it or not. Some feelings are really bad for us, and we can learn to choose other feelings over time to help our outlook and our attitudes.
Making such changes is not easy, but it is possible.
We as adults have a lot of control over these things, no matter how much our toxic and damaged culture tells us otherwise.
Dust Bunny Queen said...
There is a huge difference between using a word that is pejorative AT people. Calling people by a name or adjective that is offensive. Of COURSE we should not do that. It is wrong.
Blogger Gusty Winds said...
There is no reason to use the word in question. It is low class and unnecessary.
I am guessing that neither of you have been in a situation where it was necessary to establish dominance over another individual to protect your life, property, or loved ones. Would you consider it better to simply shoot said individual? Or shock them with ferocious and unexpected language? I have often inhabited neighborhoods that might be considered a bit seedy. I would rather scare the shit out of people that kill them. I suppose Jesus would offer them his property, plus a sandwich and a beer. I'm not Jesus.
I hear it's still okay for whites to shout the word in Compton and Inglewatts. You people should try it.
There is no reason to use the word in question. It is low class and unnecessary. Yes this blog needs to be protected from cancellation and I'm sure Althouse is aware of that.
Which leaves me mystified. Next time Huckleberry Finn comes up in conversation, like (I know wild hypothetical) some group tries to get it banned from libraries. How can anyone discuss that without saying the word that shall never be said? Moreover, there is no evading the use/mention distinction without understanding Twain's use of the word while mentioning the word he was using.
FFS.
And I guess Blazing Saddles needs bowdlerizing, as well?
If I do something stupid — a frequent event — should I be doxxed if someone overhears me calling myself a retard?
If someone (typically a woman) calls another woman a bimbo, should the fires of hell rain down upon her because chestically gifted blondes across the land will get the sadz?
Somewhat, but not totally off topic: I'm in a Facebook group, Friends of the F-111. The membership is pretty much guys who flew them, or fixed them after the guys who flew them broke them. Lots of There I Was stories, some of them involving combat.
FB has threatened to ban the group on account of unspecified reasons. FB is apparently censoring almost anything alleging that Winnie Xi Flu emerged from a CCP lab.
The N-word can also haunt like a ghost. This is old news (2017), but a school performance of Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None was cancelled because the original title contained the word. How utterly ridiculous is that?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4953122/amp/School-drops-None-N-word.html
I’m uncomfortable with the concept of words banned conditionally, when that condition, racial identity, is one we have been taught to disregard and not treat “differently” in the normal course of things. When in a crowd any word bans should be universally accepted if rejected. I think racial grouping is evil and done simply to cause strife not peace.
Hey Earnest Prole, thanks for your response. Do I have to take your feelings into consideration when I called you a sniveling little cunt? Is that word, or phrase when used with sniveling and little as descriptor modifying adjectives, still acceptable? You aren't a man, so is it relevant that your feelings might be hurt?
My problem is with the drive to eliminate works like "Huckleberry Finn" because it contains that word--used as it was originally, as a simple racial categorization. Clearly, Huck's and Mark Twain's attitude toward Jim was beyond friendly--admiring. But now the book is cancelled out of schools for a word that black children learn to use from famous rock stars and athletes.
From the Kentucky Fried Movie (1977), meet Rex Cramer, Danger Seeker.
My older daughter, who is 'white', texts my younger daughter that her DNA analysis shows she is actually 0.2% black*. My biracial younger daughter responds: "Ni@@er!" LOL!
*I subsequently learned that I am 1% black.
"Mark Twain could not be reached for comment."
He's been canceled, hasn't he? What about Flannery O'Connor and William Faulkner? Hannah Jones would never get the context.
I kinda rely on books as a place where things can still be real.
Alt Headline: "Disgust. Discuss."
Mark Twain
Or A. Lincoln.
FB is apparently censoring almost anything alleging that Winnie Xi Flu emerged from a CCP lab.
Some sensitive people felt hurt by those allegations.
I guess the "sticks and stones" rhyme is no longer valid anywhere. Folks, it is simply a WORD. It has no power other than what one gives it. Those who are compelled to remain perpetual victims, will...remain perpetual victims, no matter how many vile perpetrators are doxxed, no matter how many are cancelled, no matter how many strive to prevent "bad feelings." There is a wonderful song about this in the musical "South Pacific."
You have to be carefully taught.
Do I have to take your feelings into consideration when I called you a sniveling little cunt?
Call me whatever you wish and don't worry about my feelings. Do remember to say hi to your mom for me.
Based on observation, I would say that a locution (the n-word) that was a question of manners up until a few years ago has turned into a death machine that can kill the careless. The idea that a mere reference to--not the use of-- the actual word (which is in everyday use in the Black community) in a conversation can terminate a 47 year career at the NYT should astonish us all.
It used to be that you would decide your own parameters of how you would present yourself to the world: do I use this or that word to describe a person or group of people? Does it vary, depending...on what? What do I say about myself if I use those words? Generally, and particularly after 1960, the public discourse has gotten more vulgar. Remember Tipper Gore's campaign against nasty rock lyrics?
Activists flying flags that were made for them in academia are making the bourgeoisie jump through hoops. For the nineteenth and the first half of the 20th century, the game was épater le bourgeois (to shock the middle classes). Today, the game is battre le bourgeois (to beat upon the middle classes).
We all should have the freedom to make our own choices, particularly where no slur or insult is intended. Whither Huckleberry Finn? The hysterical screams from shocked adolescents of all ages are tedious, but ignore them at your peril.
And Althouse: The CRT people were nice. Would they be so today?
Mockturtle: According to most anthropologists, modern humans (of all races) emerged from Africa. We are ALL "African-Americans."
The use of the term "n-word" is infantile.
Totally, dude. I feel silly writing it, but as Tacitus wrote "he that writes and self-censors away, May turn and write another day; But he that is in blogging canceled, Will never rise to write again."
Anywho about the only time I've ever heard the word used by a white person was my Dad said it once or twice, when he was kinda drunk, and he used it in the Chris Rock sense, along with another phrase:
"The n-words and the white trash" ... cause problems, etc.
Randall Kennedy wrote a book on this word. Growing up in an area with few blacks (Alberta), I never gave it much thought. I feel like I learned something meaningful from this book.
But am I allowed to talk about it in polite society?
https://www.amazon.com/Nigger-Strange-Career-Troublesome-Word/dp/0375713719/ref=sr_1_1?crid=15T0G8G7IBZFD&dchild=1&keywords=randall+kennedy&qid=1612892679&sprefix=randal+kenne%2Caps%2C192&sr=8-1
School teachers are often put in the position of being the foul language police. It used to be "Would you kiss your mother with that mouth?" was sufficient to scold a child, but today's mothers are often more foul-mouthed than their kids. It appears that our society has tacitly agreed to significantly lower our language standards. I don't remember being asked if I found that acceptable to me. If i don't get to censor words I find unacceptable, why should anyone else? And if you find a word unacceptable for someone else to use, then the last thing you should do is use it yourself. Certain groups shouldn't get to "own" words unless every group can pick words that belong to them. "Retarded" is a perfectly good word with a precise definition in the education world, and yet every 25 years or so, teachers are bullied into adopting a new word to discribe a person with an IQ below 70. Personally, I think teachers should get "idiot", "moron", and "retard" back. They all have specific meanings, and when used by teachers are not insults.
If there was a special group with a special sensitivity about the word, I just felt bad that I didn't know about it before, and I would never use it again. That's the kind of ethics I learned as a child.
We know this is not true though since people use the word 100 times a day with no effort on the part of people claiming sensitivity to censor them. Let's not say it makes people feel bad as if that's the truth. Not slighting the truth when asserting our justifications is the kind of ethics I learned as a child.
As far as "that word" goes; I was born in 1970 and it was firmly understood from the time I could understand it that "that word" was absolutely wrong to utter in any circumstance, at least by a blond, blue-eyed, middle-class, suburban child such as myself.
It came as an absolute shock when I heard it in approximately 1983/4, on a municipal bus, coming from a very loud, young (my age, approximately) A-A youth. I thought no one said "that word" anymore. Especially for those that it was a slur.
That's when I learned that certain words were OK for certain groups and not others. Mid-80s.
This has been going on for a long time.
Eleanor said...
Personally, I think teachers should get "idiot", "moron", and "retard" back. They all have specific meanings, and when used by teachers are not insults.
Pretty soon they'll run out of words and People of Retard will become the proper usage.
Not for nuthin', but the n-word has become MORE taboo as it has become LESS used.
The same effect with police shootings, which have been steadily decreasing for years yet nowadays most police shootings with a black victim are international news for days/weeks/months on end. Fakenews at its finest.
I'll misquote myself from another thread "the fact that people are getting worked up over 'racist' words, rocks, makeup and names of dead people, shows there's no significant racism to worry about." (appended: "except affirmative action")
MacMacConnell said...
Now do a post on "redneck", "peckerwood" and "white trash".
2/9/21, 10:48 AM
Now do the same kind of callout comment on a post you agree with.
According to this handy graphic, "moron" was actually a complement of sorts.
Geoff Stone at UChicago Law got a lesson on how things have changed last year. Geoff is a classic William Brennan liberal who for years, to illustrate the "fighting words" exception to freedom of speech, told an anecdote about an in-class altercation resulting from a student using the actual n-word as an example of provocation. Now Geoff has agreed not to use the actual word in telling this story after a kerfuffle with students. Somewhat to Alhouse's point, he said that he was not aware how hurtful reference to the word was to some students--not just Black students.
Here is a think piece from the student newspaper, The Chicago Maroon. It provides an interesting and important perspective from a student in the class:
https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2019/3/5/racism-thrives-law-school/
So, do we have a rock -'em, sock-'em free-for-all debate in the public square? Not any more. Geoff ran upon the rocks with a reference to a use of the word. It isn't clear to me that the use itself was intended to be anything other than illustrative, but the ship sank anyway.
6. COMPARATIVE STUPIDITY OF MALES AND FEMALES IN THE SAMPLES STUDIED
"In my area it was eeny meenie miney moe, catch a tiger by the toe....., catching a tiger being a dangerous thing. Didn't hear your version until well after turning 21."
Same. Also, where I lived "ding ding ditching" was called "knicker knocking," and I didn't hear that another word was probably originally paired with knocking until I was an adult.
One relative learned the badness of the n-word as a child when she said it, not knowing what it meant, and received a slap in the face. That was in the 1950s.
Ann said: "Another child informed me that she had been taught that it makes "colored people" feel bad." Today, I fear a child's response to that rhyme would be calling you a racist and other bad things if she didn't get you expelled that is.
(It's funny that I pictured the other child was a girl when you were careful not to specify.)
the firing of a NYT reporter who had spoken the [expletive deleted] aloud.
Everyone knows the word you are expressing here. Merely using the first letter followed by -word does not negate the fact that you have used it and thereby perpetuated its use.
When you say "N-Word" what is actually appearing in your brain?
If we start using 'F-word' what actually would you see in your head?
If you say 'C-word'......etc.
Freeman Hunt said....One relative learned the badness of the n-word as a child when she said it, not knowing what it meant, and received a slap in the face. That was in the 1950s.
For me it was a whipping by my stepfather. That was also in the 1950's.
Blacks used to be disgusted by it and disgusted at blacks who used it.
Just as there is a 'talk like a pirate day', maybe we should have an annual 'epithet day' when we are all free to call anyone anything we want.
"Everyone knows the word you are expressing here. Merely using the first letter followed by -word does not negate the fact that you have used it and thereby perpetuated its use."
Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
Why do you care? Who made you captain of the circumlocution police?
"I will stamp out that word!" "Which word?" "That word! And all references to that word!" "I don't know what you are talking about." "You will not refer to that word!" "What word?" "That one that rhymes with..you know!" "Sounds like...?" and so forth.
We should probably just roll along with circumlocutions if we are going to discuss the issues.
What is amazing is that people have gone on and on about this, and (as far as I can tell) no one yet has mentioned Randy Marsh on the Wheel of Fortune puzzle N__GGERS* or Dave Chappelle's lily white The ******* Family.
*NAGGERS
Blogger Oso Negro said..I am guessing that neither of you have been in a situation where it was necessary to establish dominance over another individual to protect your life, property, or loved ones. Would you consider it better to simply shoot said individual? Or shock them with ferocious and unexpected language?
Well you guessed wrong. I have defended my property after my house was robbed in 2011 after a rich guy rented the house across the street to a bunch of drug addicts. But...they were Italian.
The word in question isn't creative. Makes you sound stupid. So I didn't use Italian epithets to insult them. One afternoon when my ex and I were on the back porch having drinks, they were screaming threats at me from across the street.
I stood up on my chair so they could see me over the fence and just started chanting "Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!". They were trash like the Jerry Springer audience. They got it. They were the type of people that would use the word.
If you've ever lived in Chicagoland you would know how old school Italians refer to black people. They don't use the word in question, but their own cultural version.
It's offensive and unnecessary. We can discuss issues like the fact that the schools in big Dem-run cities are not opening and the impact that has on vulnerable children and their future without that word.
mockturtle said:
"I subsequently learned that I am 1% black."
I happen to be c. 5 percent neanderthal. So far I have not encountered any bigotry in that regard. Except from my wife, who observes, "Well, that explains it."
What "it" comprises in this formulation I do not dare ask. But I'm assuming it encompasses multitudes.
She also says, "being Irish is worse." She's Scots-Irish, and I'll assume for the sake of comity that she's kidding.
Blogger Hey Skipper said...
Which leaves me mystified. Next time Huckleberry Finn comes up in conversation
We’re not talking about Huck Finn published in 1884 and 1885. We’re talking about using it in the comments section of the Althouse blog. No reason to do so. Let them have the word. Who cares?
But filtering the word to protect the blog is distraction. Althouse has to be CONTENT careful. She say anything toward believing or even entertaining 2020’s election fraud. THAT is the cancellation sin, and we saw it from the election through the Jan 6th.
@Gusty - Ingenious use of language to calm the Italian dopers! But not exactly the sort of situation I had in mind. I would say that no individual word is "creative" other than the word itself. It's the context. I advocate high-brow language for the high-brow, American Standard Business English for those trying to keep a corporate job in 2021, and stupid language for the stupid. I speak multiple dialects of English in my travels and work.
Blogger mockturtle said...
Just as there is a 'talk like a pirate day', maybe we should have an annual 'epithet day' when we are all free to call anyone anything we want
Yes! We can call it National Something to Cry About Day.
Guys know there's no free speech in the home. It's run by the woman.
The nation has to be run by guys, though, so the structure isn't fucked up so as to be nonfunctional. Like banning words, against free speech as a structure.
Feelings vs structure.
@ Blogger Lars Porsena said...
To answer your query, here is what I see in my head:
"N-word" - Hyper-sensitive white progressives
"F-word" - A fun time with my girlfriend
"C-word" - My ex-wife
In my universe, racism (which encompasses the use of the n-work) is bad manners, which in my family constituted the severest of transgressions, worse than any moral failing, and was not to be tolerated. My lace-curtain Irish grandmother equated bad manners (including racism and articulations attendant thereto) with acting "shanty Irish," which was simply, in her book, totally beyond the bounds of acceptable human conduct.
Ann, slightly (but only very slightly) off-topic: I would love to hear your response to the case of a U of Illinois/Chicago lawprof who used the redacted "n-word" in an exam. The question was about a hypothetical employment-discrimination case, and the defendant (or whatever he's called in a civil proceeding) had used racist and misogynist language, rendered parenthetically in the question as "n_____s" and "b_____s". After complaints, including one from a student so shaken that s/he went to a counselor right after the exam, the University subjected the guy to a bevy of mental tests, and a drug test.
Article here. Asking your opinion b/c (1) "You, a law professor!"; (2) This university isn't all that far from your own; and (3) We've been talking for some days about what could replace the whole "n-word" for pedagogical and other legitimate purposes, and based on this case we now know that just removing most of the letters will not do it. "N-word" and "n_____" are essentially the same, yes?
I don't see the upside of freezing rain, slush, temperatures under 20*, or political show trials......If Trump had indulged in sex with an intern in the Oval Office and then lied about it under oath, I wonder how many Dems would say it's just about sex....Someone above said that this is like the trial of Louis XVI. I think it's more like the trial of Marie Antoinette. They're acting out their hatreds. There is no underlying wish for justice or expiation. It's just pointless hatred. This is the kind of thing that feeds on itself. It won't end well for lots of people, including some who are most fervent in their hatred of Trump.
William:
It's not pointless. It serves, and fuels, their Machtgelüst.
roughcoat reports: She also says, "being Irish is worse." She's Scots-Irish, and I'll assume for the sake of comity that she's kidding.
If Scots-Irish, she must be Protestant. Do you wrangle about theology?
In my universe, racism (which encompasses the use of the n-work) is bad manners, which in my family constituted the severest of transgressions, worse than any moral failing, and was not to be tolerated.
In my family, racism and the n-word were considered both bad manners and utterly unChristian. I never heard the term growing up in Oregon. I later learned there were so few blacks in the state because its Constitution prohibited their immigration from 1859 to 1924.
I learned that rhyme as a little kid in the early 70's in West Vancouver, BC, Canada, which was not really known as a hot bed for slavery. Of course, I had no idea what the word meant (nor, do I think, did any of the other kids reciting it). In time, the word changed to "tiger" and the rhyme carried on.
mockturtle:
No, God help us! Political and theological discussions are anathema in our house. By mutual agreement.
My wife, the beautiful, strong, capable, intelligent, and highly willful Mrs. Roughcoat, is a blond blueblood Scots-Irish Philadelphia mainline Episcopalian, the daughter of a Philadelphia lawyer. Paul Revere was one of her ancestors.
Theologically, I have Catholic, Church of Ireland, Lutheran roots. I am Catholic, not especially devout but intensely loyal to the RC faith; and an ardent proponent of Catholic theology.
So, we are quite different in certain respects. And therein, perhaps, lies our attraction for and to each other.
The Rap genre is filled with the word in question. FILLED. But it’s also filled with misogynistic language which is gross too. But, because of the free pass on the one word, they are given passes an ALL words. Makes the woke white feminists squirm, and sell their ideals short. That’s the upside.
OK --let's get down to it.
To all the White people reading here:
Do you you object to being called "whiggers"? Or even wh****rs? Or the w-word?
At one level, many would not object because it is obviously a joke. But I suspect that some would object solely because it is mockery of the current ructions. And others would object because they believe that White people have not been subjected to the very real and historic insults and rejections for no good reason that Black Americans suffered over time, so it is not a good joke, and any pretended offence or acquiescence lacks legitimacy in every meaningful sense. There is no historic insult to deal with.
Now, many of the Americans with Irish or Italian antecedents would say--and say correctly--hey, not so fast. We've got stories in our family that will curl your hair. And Eastern European, Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern, and Jewish immigrants and their children all have tales to tell both bad and good, not to mention Native Americans.
The tradition here has been to keep moving forward, keep moving up, and keep mixing. You are in America now. In two more generations from here, things will be so mixed up that only grievance mongers will hold on to their identity though nursing ancient and genuine grudges.
And we do have a major grievance-mongering industry. Maybe they will have to learn to code.
In the meantime, should we be like the woman from the LA Times that felt aggrieved when her Trump-supporting neighbors plowed her driveway? When people do a good thing, gratefully accept it.
Earnest Prole,
I knew that about OR before we moved here, ten or so years ago; it was my husband who learned it more recently, and was shocked. Basically, OR decided that it would never be a slave state (slavery is outlawed in the same Constitution) -- and decided that the way to prevent that was to bar all Blacks from the state. I'm not precisely sure of the reasoning -- was the idea that Black citizens would present an irresistible temptation to white residents? -- but anyway, that's why OR is almost as white as IA or NH. Even Portland, which is the only part of the state that has something approximating a Black "critical mass," is 6% Black, so the non-Blackest major city in the country. Everywhere else, it's less. I live in Salem, the capital and a not-inconsiderable city. 1.5% Black. I'd say that the Eastern half of the state -- half of the land, much less than half the people -- is much lower even than that.
I had to dig all that up recently b/c I sent my Dad (MD Eastern Shore, which is not exactly teeming with Blacks itself) a video of my husband's colleague's choir performing a piece in Zoom, and he was shocked -- shocked, I tell you! -- not to find any Blacks in the choir. I reminded him, gently, that when I myself was in grade school, I'd gone to an upstate NY high school of 1700+ students that had all of TWO Black students in it the year I graduated.
"Well, and once dinosaurs walked the earth," he responded. "I'd hoped things would be better now." So far as I can tell from Wiki, in my old high school, they aren't; the surrounds are even whiter than Salem, though probably not whiter than West Salem (where my husband's school is).
Monroe-Woodbury SD actually has a secure place in Constitutional law, b/c it's very near Kiryas Joel, about which there was a big SCOTUS case in (I think) the 90s. The gist is that KJ, a Hasidic township, sent all its kids to shul, except for the developmentally disabled, who were bused to MWSD. That way, the KJ residents got the benefit of NY public schools' mandate to educate everyone, without actually having to send most of their kids to learn with the heathens. I think the SCOTUS declared this interesting arrangement unconstitutional, though I forget on what grounds.
Kay said...
"MacMacConnell said...
Now do a post on "redneck", "peckerwood" and "white trash".
2/9/21, 10:48 AM
Now do the same kind of callout comment on a post you agree with."
Kay I don't believe any censorship except self censorship.
Funny thing is I seldom heard the N-word growing up in Greenville, MS in the late 1950s. Mostly from poorer whites. I did when I moved to KC, Missouri. Mostly from my ginny friends. I had two ginny frat brothers from CONN. who referred to Blacks by an Italian word which I later learned meant eggplant.
I have used the N-word in anger twice. Both times I was assaulted by blacks attempting to violently mug me.
I do use slang terms when with friends that are targets of that slang, they respond in kind. That said to use the N-word in my family was never used and was explained why when we as children came in contact with it.
Thinking about it, I don't know any blacks that need protection from that word. The adult blacks I know aren't children.
I do not look forward to the day when the population is homogenized and intermarriage eradicates racial and ethnic distinctions and their attendant social and cultural traits. A lot of color, if you'll pardon the expression, will go out of the world. On the plus side, the diversity racket will cease to be. Everyone will be the same.
Immigration vs emigration reform.
Labor and environmental arbitrage.
The transposition of ideologically-correlated party colors. The braying, indoctrination, and steering engines, too. Trials by press. The Electoral Press.
Diversitists, or people who entertain color judgments, not limited to racism. #HateLovesAbortion
Femi and mascu-linists. Sex chauvinists by another label. Men and women are equal in rights and complementary in Nature/nature.
Genderphobes. Respect the physical and mental (i.e. gender) differences between the sexes. Stop the semantic games, the conceptual corruption, appropriating culture and animal social structures in a bid for exclusivity.
Pro-Choice, the fifth choice, the wicked solution, to a purportedly hard problem. Normalize, tolerate, or reject? Clinical cannibalism, too?
Individual dignity. Individual conscience. Intrinsic value. Inordinate worth. Natural and anthropogenic imperatives. Reconcile.
My paternal grandfather told us that, in Boulder, CO, where they lived, hispanics were not [at one time] allowed to live within the city limits. They were only allowed to come in to work and had to leave by sundown. [Not sure if this is true or not]. But my mother was born and raised in Fort Collins and went to school with 'Mexicans'.
I grew up and later lived for a while in mostly Black neighborhoods. I can recall four times that I was set upon by groups of two or more Blacks. One of the times it was really scary. I wasn't hurt, but I've had friends and family members who were irreparably hurt in such encounters.....I have used the n-word in my life. I'm not crippled with guilt, but I feel kind of bad about it. I wonder how many of the Blacks who attacked me feel repentant.
Econtalk.org has been pretty much ruined by a sudden decision that economics ought to talk more about feelings, probably around 2012.
That pretty much ended the discovery of perverse consequences in anything.
Hi Roughcoat--I know you are from Chicago and I think now live over in Chesterton. I moved to Chicago in the early 1970s, when it was still city of ethnic neighborhoods, with well-paying union jobs and a fairly flat economic distribution. As you know, that has completely changed in 50 years. Mike Royko's book about Richard J. Daley has a wonderful first chapter about the city that Daley grew up in, where people identified their neighborhoods by what parish they were in. It is certainly a less colorful city now, with a wide range of income distribution and ethnic neighborhoods that are shadow of what they were. We can all miss the old days, but they are never coming back.
This is what we have:
North side and Northwest side: richer White and Asian people.
Southwest side: Hispanics--hard working and lower middle income.
West side and South side--Black people held hostage by crime and drugs. Lower income.
Chinatown at Cermack and the river: Who knows? Some people have never left the neighborhood.
I hope you are enjoying bucolic northern Indiana. You are in the Dunes!
The illness runs deep in this one...
“ Had Donald Trump prevailed in stealing the election, I would have considered it a coup that would justify armed revolution and removing him by literally any force necessary. The fact that fully 70% of the people from my former party would support such an act is terrifying, and makes me wonder how inevitable is our ultimate slide into violence.”
http://patterico.com/2021/02/09/poll-70-of-republicans-thought-effort-to-overturn-election-results-was-justified/
Blogger mockturtle said...
My paternal grandfather told us that, in Boulder, CO, where they lived, hispanics were not [at one time] allowed to live within the city limits. They were only allowed to come in to work and had to leave by sundown. [Not sure if this is true or not]. But my mother was born and raised in Fort Collins and went to school with 'Mexicans'.
When I lived and worked in Boulder, most Hispanics could not AFFORD to live in the city. The ones who were technicians in my plant could not. Oh, and they were proudly Mexicans, not Puerto Ricans, Central Americans, or South Americans. I distinctly recall an incident in the late '90s or early 'OOs where some Mexican kids had the cops called on them for being "suspicious". They were moving their stuff into their new place, not far from Jon Benet Ramsey's former home. And if you wanted to see an African-American you needed to hit the Taco Bell about 2 a.m. when the CU football players were they. They sure do talk a good game of diversity in Boulder, though.
VOLDEMORT, dang it! VOLDEMORT, VOLDEMORT, VOLDEMORT!
Ahem. I feel better now.
"The illness runs deep in this one..."
I'll tell you what's really sick: that anyone at this point would believe a poll, particularly one put out by a major news organization (I think this is CBS). They just can't quit Trump, so they have to keep publishing nonsense. There is such a wide range of opinion included in the thought that "Trump's efforts to overturn the results that were justified".
Speaking for myself, I would like to see an analysis of how Joe Biden managed to get 10 million more votes than Barack Obama, after various ballot security and voter ID measures were thrown out. And the state legislatures really are supposed to determine election rules, not judges or bureaucrats.
As a side note, I have a friend who is a federal appeals judge. I was on a zoom call regarding a charity of mutual interest with him last fall. I asked how he was doing. He said he had spent the late summer and autumn trying to shove various federal district judges back into their boxes, because they had come to believe that the pandemic endowed them with the powers of philosopher-kings.
The pandemic messed this up, and Trump was not prepared with counter-measures. Maybe there weren't counter-measures.
So Patterico should go get his head shrunk. It won't cure him, but the drugs will calm him down.
Using the word is not the problem. Lableing use of it a hate crime is the problem.
As far as protecting the blog, a legitimate reason for killing it is not a requirement.
Any asshole could search for offensive keywords in comments and accuse the blog of promoting hate, or terrorism, or homophobia, or sexism, or many other offenses. Probably tes of thousands of comments over the years, only need to cherry pick a hundred,then put them on social media.
Oso Negro observes: They sure do talk a good game of diversity in Boulder, though.
Yep. My parents lived there until the mid 1990's and were never happy with the local politics. Though I'd describe them as liberals, they considered Boulder to be run by lunatics.
There should be no such thing as 'hate speech' or a 'hate crime'. If it's a crime, it should be tried on its own merits. This is just an intentional erosion of our first amendment rights. The Constitution is all we have and if we lose it, we are screwed.
Ann, did you read the Chait piece? https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/article/new-york-times-don-mcneil-slur-n-word-cancel-culture.html?__twitter_impression=true&s=09
Very good article and a great distinction that matters.
Hey Amadeus 48
Thanks for the note. Everything you say about Chicago in the "rare olde times" is true. I miss it.
But there are still white ethnic neighborhoods in Chicago. Bridgeport and Canaryville are still Irish; Canaryville especially, Chicago's version of Hell's Kitchen. Beverly west of Western is mostly Irish as is neighboring Mr. Greenwood, And the Northwest Side has significant Irish and Italian neighborhoods. Edison Park, e.g., is rated according to the last census as, in relative terms, the most Irish neighborhood in America, in terms of ancestry. The neighborhood along South Harlem Ave. along with neighboring Elmwood park and the other towns in that area are heavily Italian (it's where the Spilotro brothers were born and raised); Harlem Ave. in the summer sports a banner extending over the street that reads "Chicago's Other Little Italy." And Avondale is massively Polish since the fall of Soviet Communisim.
I keep track of these things. I hang ouy in Irish pubs in Irish neighborhoods (pre-plague). And I commute into the city three times a week for my job.
I do indeed live Chesterton, as of this past April 1. I like it a lot. But I do miss the old ethnic Chicago, which, as you say, is gone forever.
Good times, Roughcoat.
"I believe Althouse wants to protect her blog from reprisal by the woke crowd, but I think the main reason for her prohibition of the-word-that-shall-not-be-uttered is that she is disgusted by it, and disgusted by people that use it."
The solution in this specific case is to use the word "n-word" incessantly. Not the word that must not be said itself. And why not, since using "n-word" in both speech and the written word is totally, socially acceptable on this blog?
Examples:
"That fucking n-word stole my bicycle!"
"It's been shown that when n-words move into your neighborhood, your property value will go down."
"N-words of the antebellum south were much happier than they are now days.
Language's pliability is at once vile and wonderous.
Beverly and Mt. Greenwood are indeed Irish. John Kass calls that area Madiganistan in honor of the former Speaker of the Illinois House and long-time chairman of the Illinois Democratic Party, Michael Madigan. He was recently replaced in the midst of a scandal, but I don't think people are going to like the new guy, who takes orders from Madigan anyway.
Madigan is famous for not having a cell phone. You can't call him. But he can call you. And the guy standing next to him has a phone. Those in the know can call HIM.
"Language's pliability is at once vile and wonderous."
The Art of the Circumlocution
I have used the N-word in anger twice. Both times I was assaulted by blacks attempting to violently mug me.
My experience with non-blacks who regularly use the word is they or people close to them have survived violent encounters with blacks. Blacks use the word with great abandon- seemingly along with every other expletive I know. If you hang out in malls and listen to large groups of blacks- they swear worse than sailors.
William said...
... I wonder how many of the Blacks who attacked me feel repentant.
At a rough guess- zero, none, nada. Society has taught them they were only rightfully punishing you for your ingrained racism and the sins of your ancestors.
Amadeus 48 said...
...This is what we have:
North side and Northwest side: richer White and Asian people.
Southwest side: Hispanics--hard working and lower middle income.
West side and South side--Black people held hostage by crime and drugs. Lower income.
Chinatown at Cermack and the river:
And who's taking the drugs and committing the crimes holding them hostage? The Chinese, the other Asians, the Whites, or the Hispanics?
At some point the question is sincerity. Does something truly make people feel bad, or have some people learned that pretending to feel bad, or greatly exaggerating their feelings, or claiming someone else is made to feel bad can be an effective weapon against people they disagree with? Seems to me there is way too much of the latter.
Getting one's feelings under control is pretty much the definition of intellectual and emotional maturity. The current collapse of civilization began when people stopped focusing on what they knew and thought and started obsessing over how they felt.
What about "bitches and hos"?
Narr
Still kosher?
Here is my deleted post from yesterday, WITHOUT the prohibited word:
On the firing of a NYTimes writer due to his use of a "racial slur" in conversation years ago, not in calling someone that to be derogatory, but in reference to questioning if someone else had used the term. You know, the dreaded "N-word". My comments: To me, the controversy is silly and it's sad that that writer was fired for his mentioning of the word. It's JUST A WORD. As a racial slur, I had been taught to not use it since I was five and I repeated a "Eenie meenie miney mo" chant I had heard. I was told that it was a hateful word that was used against Negroes. Then, in 5th grade, on a day the one black boy in our class was absent, the teacher had the class read and discuss the poem, "Incident" by Countee Cullen: Incident
Once riding in old Baltimore,
Heart-filled, head-filled with glee;
I saw a Baltimorean
Keep looking straight at me.
Now I was eight and very small,
And he was no whit bigger,
And so I smiled, but he poked out
His tongue, and called me, "N-----."
I saw the whole of Baltimore
From May until December;
Of all the things that happened there
That's all that I remember.
The poem had quite the effect on me: I did not want to use words that hurt people.
That all being said, now that it is seemingly okay for blacks to use the word in general conversation or lyric, whether or not the ""-er" is changed to "-a", I find the banning of the word and its use to be reprehensible. Including the use of "the N-word". It's just become a handy tool of the Left and some black culture "leaders" to cry "racism" and cancel you. I still refrain from using the word as a derogatory but, as I did in the poem above, have no issue with its use in the proper context.
It was never "racism" when I was young. It was called "prejudice" and we all have it, to one degree or another. We can rise above it, or sink into its clutches. IMO, very few people are true "racists". They do exist. But the word "racist" has lost a lot of meaning but its flagrant use to tar even the utterance of forbidden words.
here's a Fun Thought!
What if we taught people, that you should NEVER use derogatory term for a Different Ethnicity
If you're not a jew, don't use nasty terms for jews
If you're not a latino, don't use nasty terms for latinos
If you're not a black, don't use nasty terms for blacks
Of course; THIS would be EXACTLY THE SAME, as stating that ALL Lives Matter
In other words... It's THE MOST RACIST THING YOU COULD EVER SAY!
"Even Portland, which is the only part of the state that has something approximating a Black "critical mass," is 6% Black, so the non-Blackest major city in the country. Everywhere else, it's less."
Take a look next door in Idaho. Here are the three most populous cities:
Boise- 1.5% African American
Meridian- 0.8% African American
Nampa- 0.7% African American
These three cities contain 1/4 of the population of the state. The statewide total is 0.7%.
Take a look next door in Idaho.
Idaho was part of Oregon before it became a state and was subject to the same prohibitions against black immigration.
"conservatives are more disgust sensitive than liberals as a result of their concern with purity-related norms."
All of these social science findings are questionable. Social scientists often come up with the conclusion first and then set up the survey to prove it. This idea of disgust sensitivity and purity related norms goes back to ideas about virginity and homosexuality. Given the changes in society, I don't think the generalization that conservatives are more concerned with purity and sensitive to disgust really hold up as well as it once may have. In these last few years disgust seems to be more of a liberal characteristic.
Martha Nussbaum used to score easy rhetorical points against conservatives by attributing their attitudes about homosexuality to disgust. I wonder if it wasn't a cheap rhetorical trick: find some rightwinger who can't talk about homosexuality without associating it with anal sex and then associate that person with anal sex, and you stand above that sort of thing while tacitly engaging in it.
Today, I think we can understand disgust as a more complicated phenomenon and one not so easily pigeonholed ideologically. It's something humans feel. Arguably you shouldn't let it rule your thinking, but it's not something you can escape feeling sometimes or attribute only to people who disagree with you.
"N-words of the antebellum south were much happier than they are now days"
The Antebellum South was our first great experiment in socialism, other than the military.
Amadeus:
Favorite hangout in Mt. Greenwood used to be, and hopefully will be again, Hinky Dink's on 111th. Haven't been there in awhile, for obvious reasons. Had plans to stop by after the South Side St. Patrick's Day Parade, but ... the parade was canceled. Thank you, Communist China.
Of course doing the "Death March" of Irish pubs on Western Avenue (west side of the street, of course) is still a worthy and brave undertaking -- for those with the stones to attempt it.
I haven't the words to express the awfulness that is Michael Madigan. Except, like Kurtz, to say: The horror. The horror.
Gospace--My observation is that on the South and West Sides in Chicago, there are lots of people who want to lead decent, hard working lives. But the gangs, whose business is much more about drug turf than anything else, run wild. The randomness of the violence and death leads to lots of existential questions--why bother?
There are many theories about those neighborhoods and the breakdown of families and communities. The zeitgeist is marching resolutely in the wrong direction with the abandonment and defunding of police preventative action in those neighborhoods. The few things that hold those communities together--the schools and the churches--are closed from the pandemic. Those that can leave are moving out--unexpectedly. They move to the suburbs or to the South. The grandparents of those folks moved here from the Delta for the opportunity to lead better lives.
Opportunity left town.
Many Hispanic families have moved to the Southwest side in the last fifty years. They have lots of problems, too, including gangs, but they are blessed by two things:
1. They missed the Great Society programs and have less family breakdown.
2. They are first and second generation immigrants and have an indomitable work ethic.
I grew up in white ethnic neighborhoods next to black neighborhoods and I went to high school that was fully integrated and located in a black inner city neighborhood with all that dangerous one might expect in such a place. I had, in my growing up, from childhood through high school, a disproportionately number of violent encounters with blacks, all initiated by blacks. It was quite a challenge, during football season, after practice, to wait in the darkness at bus stops or to walk home through their neighborhood. You never knew when you might be called upon to defend yourself. The experience didn't kill me and maybe made me stronger in some respects; but it also makes me angry and bitter to think about, even to this day. Nobody likes being attacked. It's a wonder I did not become a racist.
What I did become, however, is someone who views the whole race thing in America with a cold and jaundiced eye. I did learn to take people -- all people, black, white, brown, whatever -- as I find them. I can be friendly, and friends, with anyone of any race, creed, color, or ethnicity. But I can be mighty hard-hearted toward the bad elements. I don't cut people like that any kind of slack. And I don't deny their existence either.
All that said, I don't use the n-word, for reasons aforesaid.
Roughcoat--do you know the expression "headed east on Ashland?"
For those not from around by here, Ashland runs north and south and is the western boundary of Bridgeport, a traditional Irish neighborhood (which is to say that lots of city workers live there).
I'm Not Sure,
Re: OR and ID, sure; but the population of Boise is less than 1/3 that of Portland, and the other two are yet smaller. That's why I stipulated major city. Of course, Salem is even smaller than Boise. But, then, most capital cities aren't anywhere near the largest in their state. I think Boston is the big, glaring exception.
They are first and second generation immigrants and have an indomitable work ethic.
True, but I would nevertheless advise against wandering about Little Village and Humboldt Park after nightfall.
A Cuban friend in Humboldt Park is presently recovering from a gunshot wound to the stomach, after inadvertently being caught in a shootout between CPD and a Mexican gangbanger. Her husband, last year, was shot in the hand while walking down the sidewalk by gangbangers in a car, conducting a "shooting initiation" for one of their new members.
According to the late and much-lamented blog, Second City Cop, and its sister blog, "Hey Jackass," blacks in Chicago account for c. 70-75 percent of both fatal and non-fatal shootings in the city; Latinos, c. 20 percent. Gun violence committed by whites is virtually nonexistent.
The operators of Second City Cop shut down their cite because they were getting intense heat from the "bigs," e.g. Lori Lightfoot, the police chief, and such.
They called Chicago's Northwest Side the "Homeland."
Amadeus:
Hah! "Goin' East Ashland" (not "Headed") is a one-man play written and performed by Chicago comedian Mike Houlihan ("Hoolie" to his friends), who invented the term. The play takes a fond and comical look at what it was like for Hoolie to grow up in a South Side Irish neighborhood in the 50s and 60s. It's hilarious and poignant, and perfectly captures the South Side Chicago Irish milieu in the rare olde times. I saw the play, and briefly met Houlihan (shaking his hand and congratulating him), at the community theater in Beverly, the perfect venue for it. He does revivals of the play on an intermittent basis. Don't miss it if and when he does it again! You'll split a gut laughing and maybe shed nostalgic tear or two, an appropriately Irish response.
I don't know what Houlihan has been up to lately. You've inspired me to find out. He's really a Chicago treasure, that one. If a revival of "Goin' East" is in the works, I'll definitely see it again.
Amadeus:
See, for info on "Goin' East Ashalnd," the following:
https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/goin-east-on-ashland/Content?oid=883961
Sorry for all the typos in my preceding post. Blame it on typing and posting in haste.
Because if anyone could go east on Ashland, it would be the South Side Irish . . . :)
Then there's the bit where Dave Chappelle plays Clayton Bigsby, the blind white supremacist who doesn't know he's black, and he yells a lot of racist things to this group of white guys playing loud music.
And one of the white guys says, "Did he just call me a *******? Yeah!!" and he high-fives his buddies.
According to this handy graphic, "moron" was actually a complement of sorts.
I am now considering "High grade imbecile" for my tombstone.
mockturtle@10:49AM
FWIW one can still get a "wop salad" at numerous restaurants in New Orleans. (most are Italian too..)
What if we taught people, that you should NEVER use derogatory term for a Different Ethnicity
Sure, but you still have the Eminem problem. Some people spend so much time with those of another ethnicity that they come to think that they are part of that group and entitled to use the in group words.
Hey Skipper@11:14AM/
Were you an F-111 Driver? Were you ever stationed in the UK at RAF Upper Hayford near Oxford? If so, when? I was an F-4D driver @ RAF Woodbridge, 78th TFS 81st TFW near Ipswitch, East Anglia, '68-'71. (the other two squadrons, the 91st&92 were next door at the twin-base complex @ RAF Bentwaters where Wing HQ was--we were our own private Airforce-sort of the Oakland Raiders w. wings :) )
Amadeus/Roughcoat.
"Goin East on Ashland"
Will need to look into that one. I *know* you can't go east on Ashland: I grew up on Marshfield, one block west of Ashland in the 50s and 60s. Don't think the west edge of Bridgeport is anywhere near Ashland; more like Halsted, maybe.
Further south, Ashland became the dividing line between the black and white neighborhoods in the mid-60s and into the early 70s. In, I think, the summer of 1967, MLK led open-housing marches to Marquette Park starting at 71st and Ashland, two blocks from where I lived.
I didn't hear this story until many years later, after the old man died, but he initially swore that he wasn't going to move. Changed his mind after my mother was assaulted by some young thugs on the way to the Jewel a block away.
For an earlier, innocent view of the South Side, there's "Do Black Patent Leather Shoes Really Reflect Up" from the far Southeast Side. Also, not South-Side specific, "Late Night Catechism," author more or less my contemporary. And "City Life, Coming of Age in Chicago," whose author was in my youngest sister's grammar school class at St. Justin's at a time when I had departed (as it turned out, permanently) to Boston.
--gpm
You guys are full of shit:
You could say nigger all day long but it's still your POLICIES that suck.
A marriage counselor told my ex-wife and I that hate-filled marriages are salvageable, but when either party feels disgust for their partner -- it's over.
At least in my case she was right.
White people signalling their own virtue to black people via cancelling people for stupid shit like this does the black community enormous harm.
We do not admire the victim. We do not admire the aggrieved. We pity them.
We admire heroes and warriors who overcome their oppressors and succeed in spite of them -- or because of them. The path forward is through the obstacle (Marcus Aurelius).
I have never heard a black person say, "Thank you virtuous white SJW for taking up our cause so that we don't have to be heroes and warriors".
Do you see the black community's deprivation and SJW vanity?
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