१८ जुलै, २०१८

Treason talk.

Let's look back before this week, to "treason" as it has appeared within the lifetime of this blog. In chronological order:

April 27, 2005: Discussing the "blood" metaphor in constitutional law, I quoted Article III: "The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

May 28, 2006: I wrote about the protest singer Phil Ochs declaring the Vietnam War over:
So do your duty, boys, and join with pride
Serve your country in her suicide
Find the flags so you can wave goodbye
But just before the end even treason might be worth a try
This country is too young to die
I declare the war is over
It's over, it's over
July 1, 2006: "The editors of The Los Angeles Times and The New York Times explain how they decide when to publish a secret... Baquet and Keller have written a lengthy defense of their behavior, behavior that they know has been severely criticized, even called 'treason.'"

September 20, 2006: "To me, that's treason. I call it treason against rock-and-roll, because rock is the antithesis of politics. Rock should never be in bed with politics," said Alice Cooper, indicting rock stars who were telling people to vote for John Kerry.

August 3, 2007: Markos Moulitsas says that in 2002, "Dissent against the president was considered treason."

August 11, 2007: A 9/11 truther criticizes me for declining to debate him, which he took to mean that I know I'm "complicit in covering up mass murder and high treason."

May 12, 2008: A scholar assures us that the Muslim world would view Obama, the son of a Muslim father, as guilty of apostasy, which has "connotations of rebellion and treason," which is considered "worse than murder."

September 12, 2011: I'm live-blogging a debate in which "treason" is thrown around casually: "Perry stands by his 'almost treasonous' remark, referring to the use of the Federal Reserve for political purposes... Huntsman accuses Perry of treason for saying we can't secure the border."

May 8, 2012: "Isn't it funny, this 'treason' incident?" Mitt Romney, running for President, failed to chide a woman who asked whether Obama should be tried for treason. I brought up (as I did today), the 1964 book "None Dare Call It Treason." I also quoted the casual use of "treason" by Chief Justice John Marshall  Cohens v. Virginia to refer to doing something unconstitutional. ("We have no more right to decline the exercise of jurisdiction which is given than to usurp that which is not given. The one or the other would be treason to the Constitution.") And a commenter brought up an even more venerable use of the word, Patrick Henry's "If this be treason, make the most of it." That made me say: "The country was founded on treason. We celebrate the treason we like."

Also on May 8, 2012: "Obama supporters who express outrage over the use of the word 'treason' seem to think the word means nothing but to the crime defined in law — as if the woman Romney talked to wanted Obama tried and executed. It's as if people who say 'property is theft' are freakishly insisting that property owners be prosecuted for larceny. Think of all the words we use that have more specific legal meanings that do not apply: This job is murder... The rape of the land... Slave to love..."

June 17, 2013: Edward Snowden explains why he left the country: " [T]he US Government... immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime. That's not justice, and it would be foolish to volunteer yourself to it if you can do more good outside of prison than in it."

July 26, 2013: From a post about the death penalty: "Here's the 2008 U.S. Supreme Court case, Kennedy v. Louisiana, which found the death penalty for rape (even rape of a child) to be unconstitutional cruel and unusual punishment. No one has been executed in the U.S. for a crime other than murder since the 1960s, though the Kennedy case leaves open the possibility of capital punishment 'for other non-homicide crimes, ranging from drug-trafficking to treason.'"

April 22, 2014 : Above the Law had hyperventilated, "Justice Scalia Literally Encourages People To Commit Treason," and I punctured it, saying Scalia was just giving his usual speech about the Constitution, which is always subject to the right of revolution explained in the Declaration of Independence. I bring up Patrick Henry's "If this be treason, make the most of it."

February 23, 2015: "'Edward Snowden couldn't be here for some treason,' said Neil Patrick Harris, the Oscars host, when the documentary about him won an award." I said: "I liked the joke, because of its language precision and because it seemed at least a tad risky in the context of Hollywood celebrating itself."

February 29, 2016: Trump hesitated to "unequivocally condemn David Duke and say that you want his vote or that of other white supremacists in this election" after Duke it would be "treason to your heritage" for a white person not to vote for Trump.

October 14, 2016: "Great literature is simply language charged with meaning to the utmost possible degree," said Ezra Pound, who was charged with treason in WWII. He was disaffected after WWI, moved to Italy, felt inspired by Mussolini, and went on the radio criticizing the U.S., FDR, and the Jews.

December 21, 2016: I quoted the official course description for "The Problem of Whiteness," a course offered in the African Cultural Studies department of my university, the University of Wisconsin–Madison: "In this class, we will ask what an ethical white identity entails, what it means to be #woke, and consider the journal Race Traitor’s motto, 'treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity.'"

January 16, 2017: I quote someone talking about Chelsea Manning: "He is a member of the military who knowingly committed treason. His, or her, gender status has nothing to do with his conviction for treason."

February 10, 2017: I quoted Trump (before his election) talking about Edward Snowden: "I think he's a total traitor and I would deal with him harshly," "And if I were president, Putin would give him over," and "Snowden is a spy who should be executed." I wondered: "But maybe you think Trump will end up looking good forefronting the iniquity of treason."

February 7, 2018: Trump had used the word "treasonous" to describe the Democrats who didn't applaud during his State of the Union Address. Yeah, it was a joke, but: "He's President and in the position of enforcing the law, and from that position punching down. He really should not be joking about treason. And I get that he's punching back, and that's his style. But people aren't just idiots if they feel afraid of a President who isn't continually assuring us that he's aware of his profound responsibilities."

April 17, 2018: I quoted Neil Gorsuch, concurring — and voting with the liberals ‚ in a case about immigration: "Vague laws invite arbitrary power. Before the Revolu­tion, the crime of treason in English law was so capa­ciously construed that the mere expression of disfavored opinions could invite transportation or death. The founders cited the crown’s abuse of 'pretended' crimes like this as one of their reasons for revolution. See Declaration of Independence ¶21."

May 4, 2018: A conservative commentator sarcastically said he was "waiting for the Left to scream treason" over John Kerry's "quiet play to save Iran deal with foreign leaders."

July 17, 2017: I quoted Byron York: "Would it have been appropriate for the Trump campaign to try to find the [Clinton] emails?... What if an intelligence operative from a friendly country got them and offered them? And what about an unfriendly country? Would there be a scale, from standard oppo research on one end to treason on the other, depending on how the emails were acquired?"

८० टिप्पण्या:

Dave Begley म्हणाले...

Ok, you made your point. The word treason has been thrown around and used loosely. But the MSNBC audience took Brennan seriously. Very hard for me to believe this intemperate loon was our top spy. Why didn’t he stop the Russian hacking of the DNC computers. Why didn’t we hack their banking system or the lights in Moscow?

Big Mike म्हणाले...

@Dave Begley, the bigger question is who had the responsibility to prevent the hacking of high value intelligence targets, which clearly includes the Email traffic of the Secretary of State, the DNC, the RNC, and numerous other agencies? I assert that we make it the responsibility of the targets to safeguard their own secret data, not the responsibility of the CIA or any other agency.

MayBee म्हणाले...

Why didn’t he stop the Russian hacking of the DNC computers.

When Brennan ran a private contractor, one of his employees hacked the passport files of McCain, Obama, and Clinton. MSNBC had a melt down because at first it was reported it was just Obama's passport.
Anywho....turns out it was all three, and Brennan got a huge job in the Obama administration. So getting unauthorized information about candidates is only sometimes bad, and only sometimes obviously directed from the top. (although I'll do my own math on this particular case)

Andrew म्हणाले...

Trump's presidency sometimes reminds me of the Book of Esther, in which a trap set for the Jews ended up ensnaring the ones who created the trap.

I suspect that within the next few months, there will be many people who are now accusing Trump of treason, who will be exposed as the real traitors to their country.

My guess is that Trump has many cards to play in his hand, and he'll be laying them down one by one as the midterm elections draw near. And the media noise in conjunction with the Democrats' hysteria is proof that some people know what's coming.

I would not be surprised if the Democrats cease to be a viable party, after all their corruption and actual treason comes to light.

tcrosse म्हणाले...

FDR was accused of being a Traitor to his Class.

Alex म्हणाले...

I wonder how effective it is on the swing voters when the MSM screams "Trump is a traitor". I really do wonder and worry.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

More temotion than treason.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

They have traitor pulls at state fairs now.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

My country, love it or lease it.

Dave Begley म्हणाले...

McCabe rats out Comey and Strozk. Rice and Power rat out Brennan. They all go to jail. Thjs assumes, that Sessions does his constitutional duty.

Chuck म्हणाले...

This is a beautiful post, Althouse. Immediately before you posted it, I had Googled "Trump" and "treason" and "accusation" with "2017"; looking for the occasion(s) on which Trump had made accusations that others were guilty of treason.

You outdid me by a mile.

I'm also watching poor Tucker Carlson go into media meltdown over the notion that John Brennan called Trump "treasonous." And it was how many weeks ago, that Trump's White House said that Trump was only joking when he was tossing out his "treason" accusations?

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Traduttore, traditore. Translators are traitors.

Ralph L म्हणाले...

So if your fortune is confiscated by attainder of treason, they have to give it back to your children or widow?

I thought bills of attainder were banned by the Constitution, or is the treason one for government office holders (impeachment on steroids)?

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Clear thinking is reasonous.

rehajm म्हणाले...

The biggest topic of small talk this summer is how nobody can watch TV news. A sideways glance is all we can take. Surprisingly political affiliation doesn’t matter.

Makes sense- have you seen how few people watch cnbc/msnbc?

Chuck म्हणाले...

"Trump was 'joking' when he accused Democrats of treason, White House says."

162 days ago.

Kevin म्हणाले...

"Trump was 'joking' when he accused Democrats of treason, White House says."

So is your point that Brennon is joking?

Or that Trump's use of the word and Brennan's aren't in the same ballpark?

Sebastian म्हणाले...

So, eh, no instances of conservatives doing to progs what Brennan is trying to do Trump.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Treason is when you form a business arrangement with terrorists. You blow stuff up and we'll cover it. You get publicity and we get advertising dollars, or votes, as the case may be.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Traitors are about giving. It's naturally Democrat.

Unknown म्हणाले...

> Treason is when you form a business arrangement with terrorists. You blow stuff up and we'll cover it.

No, because sending $150G including pallets of foreign cash to Iran was not treason

but action of "light worker".

Deplorables mire at facts and immediate results

The One bends the arc of history and he chides the bitter clingers with "that is not who we are".

Kevin म्हणाले...

The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward treason.

William म्हणाले...

The mystery of Snowden: If Putin should turn him over to Trump would that paradoxically demonstrate that Snowden was not in collusion with the Russians and that Trump was. What's the current lib position on Snowden? Is hacking only bad when done by Russian agents? .......Snowden and Manning released some top secret shit, but they were never so traitorous as to release info damaging to Hillary or the DNC. None would dare call that treason, but that's because there are crimes worse than treason. Manning would never have been pardoned if he had hacked and revealed Hillary's emails.

traditionalguy म्हणाले...

Free speech is often called treason but it is protected treason if it's flag burning or telling lies about the USA's officials. That's because we do not have a King anointed by devine right, but merely select citizens for a limited term.

However, aiding an enemy force that is out to destroy the USA is Benedict Arnold style Treason. That is because it is attempted mass murder. That is Barry Sotero's territory.

But the Russian State is not out to destroy the USA. It just wants our Deep State/CIA's off the books Army, Navy and AirForces to stop attacking Russia seeking the overthrow of the Russian Regime and the looting of its enormous natural resources.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"Is hacking only bad when done by Russian agents? .......Snowden and Manning released some top secret shit, but they were never so traitorous as to release info damaging to Hillary or the DNC."

Question asked, question answered.

But there is a residual mystery: normally, progs like people who screw the U.S.--Manning, Snowden, the mullahs, Hiss, the Rosenbergs--but now they must feign hatred of post-reset Vlad. So is their usual contempt for the U.S. stronger than their instrumental hatred of Putin?

Sprezzatura म्हणाले...

"We got back our great fallen heroes, the remains sent back today, already 200 got sent back."

Chuck म्हणाले...

Kevin said...
"Trump was 'joking' when he accused Democrats of treason, White House says."

So is your point that Brennon is joking?

Or that Trump's use of the word and Brennan's aren't in the same ballpark?


No, Kevin, I don't think that Brennan was joking. I think he was being mostly serious. With Trump, I don't think anybody including Donald Trump/John Miller/John Baron, knows when he is being serious. And why would anybody care? What the guy spews is just a constant stream of garbage; without thought, or clarity, or ideology or consistency. Really; for purposes of a rational debate of anything, who cares what Trump says or if or when he is joking?

But if you and I must debate, let's consider that what John Brennan was alluding to as "treason" was a (highly questionable) notion that Trump was somehow doing the bidding of Russia at the expense of U.S. intelligence, or worse. It's debatable, but if true, is a serious question of something that might rise to the level of treason or a similar offense. What Donald Trump called "treason" was Democrats who refused to cheer for Trump at a State of the Union address. If that's a joke, it is one of the weirdest jokes imaginable. So coming from Trump, that sort of bizarre dictatorial "joke" is quite expected.

Michael K म्हणाले...

the Muslim world would view Obama, the son of a Muslim father, as guilty of apostasy

I agree with this but they did not say anything about which might mean that he was in on the deal.

Kerry committed actual Treason when he, as a Navy officer, met with the North Vietnamese in Paris to undercut the attempts at peace.

The rest is rhetoric but Brennan is the craziest CIA Director we've ever had. By far.

Michael K म्हणाले...

What the guy spews is just a constant stream of garbage; without thought, or clarity, or ideology or consistency

So, you are telling us you voted for this crazy guy ? I would say that is pretty weird.

Bordering on treason.

Kevin म्हणाले...

So coming from Trump, that sort of bizarre dictatorial "joke" is quite expected.

Then why are you running around Googling it and leaving links for everyone?

If he's not serious, and I don't think anyone really took him seriously that he was going to charge the entire Democratic side of Congress with Treason for not applauding when he talked, why are you bringing it up?

Especially when our hostess already linked to that incident in her post?

John Pickering म्हणाले...

Another good post by Ann that gives her readers the benefit of her wide reading. She's saying, let good Americans decide for themselves what constitutes treason, in wartime, and perhaps even not. Does it mean the betrayal of your country, its secrets, its interests? And she's saying, let's look at it now. Obama's not the president, neither is Clinton or Nixon or anyone else. Ann is asking the question, at what price do Americans accept the possibility that the president may be in the control of the dictator of Russia, if there's even a chance that that's true.

robother म्हणाले...

Didn't there use to be a commenter on this site who called himself the "Treasonable Man"?

Drago म्हणाले...

Pickering: "Ann is asking the question, at what price do Americans accept the possibility that the president may be in the control of the dictator of Russia, if there's even a chance that that's true."

LOL

Sometime in the last few hours Pickering figured out his earlier laughable lies about Trump being an agent of Russia were so ridiculous that he needed a new strategy to put forward "improved" lies.

Well played Pickering.

Not to worry, this latest rewrite of history is guaranteed to be more successful!

BTW, if any readers have the time, ask Pickering abiut his fab-u-lous theory that increasing US oil and gas production is responsible for increased global oil prices!

Theres gotta be a Nobel out there somewhere with that hottest of hot takes!




Kevin म्हणाले...

at what price do Americans accept the possibility that the president may be in the control of the dictator of Russia, if there's even a chance that that's true.

We're now supposed to believe Hitler is under Russian control?

The key to a good conspiracy theory is you don't keep changing it every news cycle.

Rick म्हणाले...

The word treason has been thrown around and used loosely.

Maybe nut it doesn't suggest it is normal. The only identified instances of the right using the terms treason/traitor were Trump and Huntsman. Trump's was a joke rather than a serious usage and Huntsman used it against someone to his right (Perry).

I see KOS and others claiming they were called traitors but these are generally lies. During the Obama McCain campaign a woman I worked with said she was tired of having her patriotism questioned. When I drilled down she meant people criticized her healthcare policy preferences. Since this effected what she thought America should look like she believed this meant they were claiming she didn't want what was best for America and translated this to "questioning her patriotism".

KOS' claims of being called traitor (along with Freder / RV who have made that claim here) are the same revisionist nonsense. There was never anything like the left's embrace of the terms today nor were there ever public figures (commentators, politicians) openly making the accusations. If the accusations were covered in the news at all it was to discredit those making them. Today they're covered as serious accusations.

Ralph L म्हणाले...

Radames on trial for treason in Aida. Amneris upset.

Qwinn म्हणाले...

Lefties consider treason to be the highest virtue, when they're committing it.

Remember how they used to claim, over and over, "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"? Even tried to attribute it to Jefferson? (It was actually Howard Zinn)

Well... treason is the highest form of dissent. Pretty much by definition.

So according to lefties... treason is the highest form of patriotism.

Chuck म्हणाले...

Kevin said...
So coming from Trump, that sort of bizarre dictatorial "joke" is quite expected.

Then why are you running around Googling it and leaving links for everyone?

If he's not serious, and I don't think anyone really took him seriously that he was going to charge the entire Democratic side of Congress with Treason for not applauding when he talked, why are you bringing it up?

Especially when our hostess already linked to that incident in her post?


No, I didn't expect to Trump to charge all of the Congressional Democrats with treason. But given that Trump was then occupying the office of the Presidency, it was uniquely un-funny.

Brennan is retired and in private life, having never been in law enforcement but having been a career CIA officer. Brennan has none of the active powers that Trump did, in trashtalking about "treason."

John Pickering म्हणाले...

Drago hasn't noticed that the current problem in the Permian is the inability to move the crude to Corpus Christie. A pipeline company that wanted to build a pipeline was denied an exemption from the Commerce department tariffs because they were going to use imported steel. As you know Trump hasn't built a bit of infrastructure, that money went to the tax cut and more. So that's one reason crude prices are up 50% under Trump and you know about gas prices. The other is the eventually empty threat to embargo Iran oil exports -- in the end China and India will buy all the crude Iran wants to sell. My point has always been: who benefits from higher oil prices? Petrostates, and we're not one of them. Trump's policies have resulted and will continue to pay a huge cash dividend for Russia and the Saudis (who have other issues). Why do some suspect the president may be under the control of the Russian dictator? Because he acts that way.

Drago म्हणाले...

Self-Identified Smear Merchant and DurbinCuckholster Chuck: "But given that Trump was then occupying the office of the Presidency, it was uniquely un-funny."

It. Was. Hilarious.

But we can all understand how uncomfortable it made you for Trump to joke about your democrat allies.

Meanwhile its become clear that Brennan has been at the center of efforts to abuse our intelligence agencies against conservatives, republicans, and opponents of the stupid Iran Deal payout to America-hating mullahs.

My gosh, no wonder you like him so.

I'lk bet your in-home shrine to dems and Deep Staters is getting rather crowded these days!

Dave Begley म्हणाले...

Brennan, Rice and Power unmasked American citizens contrary to statute. He probably had something to do with how the dossier was circulated. He’s totally dirty. And now unhinged.

Michael K म्हणाले...

if there's even a chance that that's true.

Sometimes it is useful to ask psychotics to explain certain phrases, like proverbs.

Also, they have psychotic explanations for things that they don't understand.

Example.

My point has always been: who benefits from higher oil prices? Petrostates, and we're not one of them. Trump's policies have resulted and will continue to pay a huge cash dividend for Russia and the Saudis (who have other issues). Why do some suspect the president may be under the control of the Russian dictator? Because he acts that way.

It is nice that psychotics demonstrate their condition for us. this way.

The fact that pipelines were blocked by Obama and the Democrats for 8 years is ignored by psychotics.

Just don't get between Pickering and the door.

Drago म्हणाले...

JP: "Drago hasn't noticed that the current problem in the Permian is the inability to move the crude to Corpus Christie."

LOL

Nice try at shifting the goal posts pal! Not bad overall.

Better than LLR Chuck! Though that is a very low bar.

You're clearly better shifting your Trump as Russian Agent lies.





Drago म्हणाले...

Michael K, dont even bother.

Pickering clearly, desperately, googled something that he thought could save the day, but his invincible ignorance of this subject matter leaves him continuously exposed.

Like, with an Anthony Weiner used cloth sort of way...

Rick म्हणाले...

The fact that pipelines were blocked by Obama and the Democrats for 8 years is ignored by psychotics.

Opposition to energy development was a key Obama policy (opposed ANWR, Keystone, then fracking) criticized by no one on the left. But Trump comes along and suddenly they pretend to support it.

History begins anew yet again.

Drago म्हणाले...

Rick: "History begins anew yet again."

Only. Every. Single. Day.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

Professora ... You left off only relevant item - Treason is defined in Constitution.
@Maybee ... Are you saying Brennan has dirt on Obama, Kerry, McCain?!
Explains much.

rcocean म्हणाले...

You'd think Jefferson Davis would've been hanged for "treason" but he wasn't.

So, the Legal meaning saved him.

Did you know that Teddy Roosevelt actually had a correspondence with Jefferson Davis, and snubbed him?

Free associating: I read "None dare call it treason" in the early 1980s. I was curious, since I'd heard the book title. Result: It made zero impact. I don't even remember one line.

Song lyric: "Treason just another word for nothing left to lose". Possibly incorrect.

rcocean म्हणाले...

How do you react when the most pro-American President since Ronald Reagan is accused of "Treason" by Communists, Fools, and Open Border fanatics?

I half expect Chuck Schumer to call Trump an "abortionist" next week.

Michael K म्हणाले...

the current problem in the Permian is the inability to move the crude to Corpus Christie."

That's why they are drilling ore wells. Read the fucking newspaper.

Or you could read Forbes.

We know that pipeline help is surely coming to West Texas. The resource potential there is just too massive for it not to be. "At least 2.4 million b/d of potential new Permian oil pipeline capacity has been proposed by a half-dozen operators, and those who have progressed to open season have reported strong customer interest."

For example, by the end of this year, Permian Express 3 will add 200,000 b/d of capacity. Despite the bottlenecks, "Permian oil production is projected to almost double again to 5.3 million b/d from 2017 by the end of 2020, according to Morningstar," perhaps crushing OPEC's dreams.


Being terminally stupid, like a couple around here, is as bad as treason.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

I take it back, you cited Article III , has the definition.

paminwi म्हणाले...

"Blogger Big Mike said...
@Dave Begley, the bigger question is who had the responsibility to prevent the hacking of high value intelligence targets, which clearly includes the Email traffic of the Secretary of State, the DNC, the RNC, and numerous other agencies? I assert that we make it the responsibility of the targets to safeguard their own secret data, not the responsibility of the CIA or any other agency."

Something we need to all remember is the DNC and RNC are NOT government agencies. They are actually private businesses. And as much as I was ok with reading all the emails from the DNC/John Podesta I can worry as much about the stupid Dems as I am about the DOS/Secretary Clinton. She was a true idiot of major proportions. But, the media has once again been able to drive the narrative and the BS language of "hacking the election".

I am disgusted at how all of this has been handled.

Drago म्हणाले...

Michael K: "That's why they are drilling ore wells. Read the fucking newspaper"

My last large oil and gas client, like so many others, has moved the vast bulk of their assets out of the Bakken and into Permian and have greatly strengthened their balance sheet and key financial performance measures. Which pleases the shareholders greatly.

The additional pipeline capacity is on the way, despite what Pickering, a brand new oil and gas "expert" as of 15 minutes ago, has no clue about.

But he does know he wants desperately to get obama some of the credit for the very industry obama and the dems and the left and their LLR allies want to destroy.

narciso म्हणाले...

Well Tom Geithner wouldn't let 100 million in capital go to waste right?

Known Unknown म्हणाले...

"Snowden and Manning released some top secret shit"

Snowden was very particular and had a point about what he released: that your own government was spying on you and lying about it.

Manning was indiscriminate and just flooded secrets out.

One of these two is a free U.S. citizen now.

Known Unknown म्हणाले...

"Trump's policies have resulted and will continue to pay a huge cash dividend for Russia and the Saudis (who have other issues)"

Ask yourself who was the pro-Keystone Pipeline candidate and who was the pro-fracking candidate. There's so much cognitive dissonance it's astounding.

Drago म्हणाले...

John Pickering: "Trump's policies have resulted and will continue to pay a huge cash dividend for Russia..."

Yeah, the guy who opposes Putin's prized pipeline direct from Russia to Germany is the guy whose polices are paying off for Putin.

Stupidity on a level that dwarfs readering and Field Marshall Freder. And that's saying something.

Lewis Wetzel म्हणाले...

In the English speaking world, accusations of "treason" are especially nasty. In Elizabethan England, any attempt to subvert the spritual authority of the Church of England brought with it the risk of treason charges, since the regent was the head of the Church and the source of its power. The punishment for treason was to be drawn and quartered. You would be hung until nearly dead, then disemboweled, your heart torn out, and your body cut into four pieces. On at least one occasion, a victim lived til nearly the end. Records show a victim fighting back as the executioner stuck his hand into the chest cavity to remove his heart.
I think that the history of executions is an argument against the idea of moral progress. Drawing and quartering, and burning alive, were nearly unheard of in 13th century England, but were not terribly uncommon in the 16th and early 17th centuries.

rcocean म्हणाले...

Ezra Pound was a unique combination of literary genius and political crackpot.

People told him to stop making anti-British, Anti-FDR, Pro-Mussolini broadcasts after Pearl Harbor - but he kept on. He even wrote a letter to FDR claiming it was part of "Freedom of Speech", He was genuinely surprised when he was arrested by the US Army!

Of course, he'd left America 30 years before, and had no idea what going on.

Novelists/Poets, good at describing what's wrong with society. Terrible on how to fix it.

rcocean म्हणाले...

Rebecca West's book "The New Meaning of Treason" was pretty good - if you like History - a lot.

wwww म्हणाले...


Rejoice, Columbia's sons, rejoice!
To tyrants never bend your knee,
But join with heart, and soul, and voice,
For Jefferson and Liberty!

No lordling here, with gorging jaws
Shall wring from industry the food;
Nor fiery bigot's holy laws
Lay waste our fields and streets in blood!

Here strangers from a thousand shores
Compelled by tyranny to roam,
Shall find amidst abundant stores,
A nobler and happier home.

Let foes to freedom dread the name;
But should they touch the sacred tree,
Twice fifty thousands swords would flame
For Jefferson and liberty.

From Georgia to Lake Champlain,
From seas to Mississippi's shore,
Ye sons of freedom loud proclaim --
"The reign of terror is no more."

These gifts, great Liberty, are thine,
Then thousand more we owe to thee,
Immortal may their mem'ries shine,
Who fought and died for Liberty.

Putin can go pound sand.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

Is it treason to pay foreigners for dirt on a presidential candidate? Here is my problem with the Mueller investigation in nutshell: we know for a fact that one of the campaigns did this, but it isn't the one under the investigation by Mueller.

Having pointed that out, I don't think what the Clinton Campaign did in hiring Steele and having him get information from overseas is criminal. Where I see the crime is the FBI taking this opposition research, not verifying any of it apparently, and using to spy on Trump and members of his campaign- I don't even really think the Clinton Campaign taking the dossier to the FBI is criminal- the Obama DoJ is responsible for its own incompetence/corruption.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

So what is treason? I think most of us have a firm grasp of the concept- aiding and abetting an enemy in wartime. Is Edward Snowden a spy? By the definition, I would argue yes, he is, but is does that make him a traitor? That is a harder question to answer. I for one am glad that the public knows about the stuff Snowden revealed about the NSA and its capabilities, and I think he probably did what he did for a mixture of both noble and venal reasons. One can argue that the world knowing the NSA's capabilities makes the US more vulnerable, but that is something no one can actually prove, but here is the thing- those same capabilities can be used against the US by its government, and I think it extremely naive to think it isn't already happening. So I come down applauding Snowden and people like Julian Assange- for all their warts, I think we need people like them in the world.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

As for the accusations that Trump is a traitor for the press conference on Monday- that is just batshit insanity, and the public largely sees this is the case. In some cases where the charge is levied, the term is used as hyperbole, in other words it is intentionally misused- the speaker knows the audience understands that the term is being misapplied. In the case of the last week, however, the people using it weren't using hyperbole- they really meant it, and/or they meant for the audience to believe it. People like John Brennan are either completely insane, or they are among the most dishonest people I have ever witnessed in politics.

Ralph L म्हणाले...

The punishment for treason was to be drawn and quartered
You forgot the junk removal after the disemboweling.

Bob Loblaw म्हणाले...

No, because sending $150G including pallets of foreign cash to Iran was not treason

It wasn't. That was Iran's money, after all, that had been frozen since 1979. At some point you either have to give it back or officially take ownership. I suspect this was a very important face-saving gesture to the Iranians beyond the value of the cash.

Bob Loblaw म्हणाले...

As for the accusations that Trump is a traitor for the press conference on Monday- that is just batshit insanity, and the public largely sees this is the case.

One would hope, but the Democrats are back up to a comfortable lead in the generic congressional ballot.

Kevin म्हणाले...

Brennan has none of the active powers that Trump did, in trashtalking about "treason."

Brennan was a key player in the spying on candidate Trump during the election, the basis of which still has not been shown to Congress or the American people. If Trump is impeached for something else, we may never get to the bottom of that.

Oso Negro म्हणाले...

@Kevin - I think it is time to accept that we are never getting to the bottom of this, ever. We may get to the end of it, but we aren't getting to the bottom of it. The American political establishment and the Federal agencies are deeply corrupt. Accept it, move on, try to live a full life anyway. But if it comes to a second civil war, there are options.

Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...

I can't tell how much ch of it is desperation, and how much is opertunism, but this recent traitor talk is quickly pushing us to armed rebellion. After Brennan making a fool of himself, no doubt there were a bunch of people ready to march on Langley for a necktie party, until they got answers as to how the CIA was involved in the place t to take out Trump. And where does Chuck Schumer get off on dean ding that the translator with Putin be made available to Congress for grilling over what was said. I really doubt that it mattered much what he did or said in Helsinki- the narrative had probably been set since Trump's trip there had been set.

So, what we have now is portions of the permanent bureaucracy in almost open revolt against their duly elected boss and leader. Yet, their only moral and legal legitimacy is through him. And you have a number of prominent Democrats in Congress and out demaning this and that, including his ouster for what? For doung his frigging job. The job he was elected to do. Schumer has no legal or moral right to hear exactly what Trump and Putin said to each other. We elected Trump, not Schumer President. It is so patently obvious, from all the screaming and carrying on by all the usual subjects, that this is just the latest way for the Democrats and the fleet to overthrow the 2016 election that they lost. They somehow think that thanks to their moral goodness, they deserve to rule. They don't. And esp they have no moral goodness here because the power that they so desperately want to continue wielding flows from the consent of the governed through our inter generational contract, our Constitution. This is nothing more than a naked power grab, which the furthest thing from moral goodness - and instead is an attempt at tyranny. Tyranny because it is an attempt to impose power over the American people by violating the Constitution that gave them whatever power they had in the first place.

My partner doesn't like the evening political talk shows. She has some tolerance for Fox News, and none for the other news and political shows in the evening. She doesn't like to go to bed riled up. I usually don't mind, but the last several days have been hard. This looks more and more like the naked power grab I mentioned above. Don't they get that the power that they are so blatantly trying to seize comes through that Constitution that they are so willing to ignore? Without Constitutional legitimacy, all they have is power at the barrel of a gun? And the people that they are trying to seize that power from have 100 guns for every gun that they do? I am tempted to do what my partner does, and lay off the politics for a couple days, just to get my blood pressure down. But won't.

Josephbleau म्हणाले...

In an unusual confluence of events, Ezra Pound, in Italy, was the cell mate of Emmet Till’s father, who was hung by the US Army for the rape and murder of Italian girls. Ezra wrote a short poem on him.

Rusty म्हणाले...

Just to put the knife in a little more....
Pick. American natural gas is being shipped to eastern europe in direct competition with Russia. Wanna bet that a lotbof the meeting was Putin trying to convince Trump not to sell gas to Ukraine?
The price of gas at the pump these days isn't because of the inability to move crode overland , but the lack of throughput. We need another major refinery or two. Maybe under Trump that will get the go ahead.

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

John Stormer turns out to have had a very accurate track record.

Despite the fact that we usually hear this only from the bipartisan (and they are the only true bipartisan political coalition in America today, weirdly) truther type nuts, the U.N., World Bank, and Millennium Goals Commission have openly stated an unambiguous goal of minimizing and then eliminating national sovereignty and advancing to world government and a collectivist taxation system administered by the U.N. This is where the collectivist energies previously wheelhoused in Russia accrue today.

You can argue reasonably that we are a long way away -- lifetimes perhaps -- from the U.S. agreeing to dismantling nation states in favor of world government. But you cannot accurately claim that this is not the stated goal of the U.N., nor that high ranking American politicians from both political parties are not involved in trying to move the world in that direction and have been doing so for more than half a century.

So what did Stormer get wrong about this? Nothing. His book is a very interesting read, approached with an open mind, especially in light of post-Soviet revelations from the Venona records and other caches. There were Soviet agents at every level of government, working secretly in coordination with the Russians to overthrow our government and implement communism here. Shouting McCarthyism doesn't change historical reality. It's amazing how unwilling people are to even consider this.

virgil xenophon म्हणाले...

What Bruce Hayden said above@ 5:52am!...and what Tina Trent said as well..

Michael K म्हणाले...

Schumer has no legal or moral right to hear exactly what Trump and Putin said to each other. We elected Trump, not Schumer President.

Trump should use Lyndon Johnson's line, "If you want to run things run for office like I did."

It was about the only thing I liked about him.

Jay Vogt म्हणाले...

"Treason" is the new "racist".

wholelottasplainin म्हणाले...

Drago said...
JP: "Drago hasn't noticed that the current problem in the Permian is the inability to move the crude to Corpus Christie."

&&&&&&&&&&&
Well, Christie *does* have a large Corpus. I think we can all agree on that.

wholelottasplainin म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
hstad म्हणाले...

Interesting observation on the word "Treason". But AA, all of these quotes are from morons in the MSM and Political Elites. Look at this week's meltdown about Trump - Putin presser in Helsinki. Just like the word "racist" the MSM and its lackeys have made "treason" a meaningless exercise in propoganda. Unless, overnight, you actually believe the Left got rid of their Che Guevara tee shirts and put on their GI Joe tee shirts and wanted all out war with Russia. The MSM has painted themselves into a corner, they must at all times criticize Trump or their ratings game is up. Just like the stock market, eventually this MSM meme must self-correct. In the meantime, the collapse of credibility in the MSM marches forward and will only come to a halt when everyone stops their participation.

RonF म्हणाले...

If people characterize a given comment or action as "treason" in the context of being something that they think is deliberately antithetical to the interests of the United States, that's rhetoric. But when they call for Pres. Trump to be charged with treason, now they're talking about a legal proceeding and invoking the legal definition of treason in that context is appropriate.