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९६ टिप्पण्या:
Islam has many variations and sects, just like Christianity. Each of them is the one true version.
I #approve
Yeah, right. I noticed the overwhelming Muslim condemnation of the children's executions in Syria, and blowing up the Russian airliner. This is simply because they fear a backlash from this one.
Muslims commonly use a technique called taqiyya to fool non-Muslims about the aims of Islam. Basically taqiyya says lying or deception non-Muslims about Islam or Muslim behavior so long as the objective is to protect the reputation of Islam or to project Islam.
So how do we know that these expressed showings of sorrow about what other Muslims did in Paris are genuine?
We can only trust Muslims to be Muslims.
And all that that means.
Who are they to tell other Muslims that they are wrong?
I have ancestors who believed god would protect them from poisonous snakes thinks to certain passages in Mark and Luke. Isn't only god capable of telling them they are misinterpreting his words?
It seems to me that once you grant that certain literary works have divine authorship, it's up to everyone's interpretation. One of the central pillars of protestantism is that people should read and understand the bible themselves and did not need to rely on church authority figures.
It's Islam. Whether one group wants to call it "real" or not seems pretty irrelevant to the reader.
Throughout human history adherents to a religion have told other adherents that they are not understanding the religion correctly.
"My name is Lina. I am a Muslim. I condemn the Paris terrorist attacks. Over 1.8 billion Muslims do."
Condemnation is merely hollering "Don't blame me!" That's worthless and self-serving. When are "1.8 billion Muslims" going to shut down ISIS, Al Queda, and their co-religionists as an expression of the peace they espouse?
20,000 Muslims have gone to Syria to fight for ISIS. How many of Prof. Althouse's twittering heroes have gone to Syria to fight against ISIS?
They are in a very deep hole and getting out will require a lot. Muslims have watched a lot of attacks and travesties around the world and said not a peep. I don't want there near me. We had a "sudden jihad syndrome" case in Irvine a few years ago.
He was a limousine driver with a wife and kids. Maybe he just flipped but, instead of slapping his wife around or shooting her or out the window like normal people do, he drove to LAX and shot at Jews ta the El Al counter.
No thanks.
Great. The more moderate sensible Muslims there are to actually speak out against Muslim terror the better off we all will be.
But they need a lot more of them.
Until the Mus take down their own, no one should trust them.
When Mumbai attack happened, Indian Muslims refused to bury the dead perpetrators of that attack.
Muslims should start a Muslim Lives Matter movement.
Muslim moderates?
My first response is this video:
https://youtu.be/Ry3NzkAOo3s
ISIS and similar attacks have the support of somewhere between 20 percent and 33 percent of younger Muslims in Europe. Maybe more. Pew research has confirmed these levels of support after previous attacks in Europe several times.
Fine. Get a gun and start shooting the savages. Until they fight back they are just providing cover for the Religion of Peace lie.
These Muslims have better get their bony asses into the streets and say these things. Hiding behind Twitter don't cut it.
This is simply because they fear a backlash from this one.
Yup. The ones I read at the link mostly had a more defensive tone than anything. Not all, but definitely most. Here are a couple of the examples:
"I WON'T apologize for something im not responsible for."
"My name is Khidr Ali. I am a #Muslim. I condemn the #ParisAttack. Over 1.6 billion Muslims do. Please remember this." (Several were VERY similar to this one).
The problem for Muslims is that Islam is in principle a left-wing ideology. While it may only be a minority that engage in the far-left, Marxist movements, every Muslim adopts the aggressive universal doctrine commanded by the Islamic religion. Only secular left-wing cults have competed with Islam in their pursuit of domination through killing and subjugation of competing interests.
Scott, Carnifex, et. al.,
I know this is probably going to fall on deaf ears because it doesn't fit into your pre-conceived notion of what's what in the world, but just to be clear: Muslims are fighting against the Islamic State every single day. Bashar Assad's Alawites are Muslims (albeit, somewhat akin to Mormons, a sect not necessarily accepted as such by the majority of the religion). The various "secular" and "moderate" factions of the Free Syrian Army- Division 13, Fursan Haqq, Jarabulus, Liwa Thuwwar, the Southern Front, et. al.- who have been fighting and dying against IS are all (mostly Sunni) Muslims. The Kurdish Peshmerga, whom we just helped take Sinjar from IS, are all (again, mostly Sunni) Muslims. Each of these groups have taken exponentially more casualties than have the Europeans, and it's not to say anything of Iran and Hezbollah, who are backing the Alawites in fighting IS, and are Shi'ite Muslims, or the Jordanians who are Sunni Muslims. I don't understand this absurd notion that Muslims are not condemning or fighting against the Islamic State, unless one really has no clue about what has been happening for the last four years in Syria.
@Bobby, agree. They are powerless against an enemy who kills their own and who is so evil and they need the assistance of the rest of the world, but without a leader to lead that fight, it is ineffective and that is where we are today.
Most of the Muslims fighting against ISIS have no choice, ISIS has launched a war of conquest against them. The fight is about power, not religious doctrine. Most of those fighting against ISIS agree with ISIS about the West.
Did they change their facebook pages? Because if not how can you believe them.
Islam is a religion founded on the premise that it is superior to any other religion, group or nation in the world. It was founded in violence and rape. It glorifies the submission of other religions and peoples to its 'greater authority'. Jihad isn't new. Its centuries old, and it is the avowed duty of all Muslims, to support it.
Islam needs a Reformation. But any moderate individuals seem to get killed rather fast.
This is a war. There may be moderate Islamists, but ultimately if they follow the Koran, they believe in the superiority of their religion, up to and including subjugating other religions, races, nations.
Its fine to say that so and so is fighting these bad guys etc etc. But over a thousand years of History tells us that things have not changed.
Christianity became a true religion of peace when it had a Reformation. But even then it took over a hundred years for things to settle out.
BFD
Put yourself out there on TV or STFU.
Talk is cheap. Like I tell my 4 year old: "Don't tell me. SHOW ME."
Good for them. And if they're using accounts with their names on them, I especially salute them because there's an at least limited risk to telling the louder voices of Islam to pipe down. We need to see this split, not between Sunni and Shia but between the unhinged and those open to the modern world.
It is an evil cult. Demonstrate your recognition of that by leaving the cult end telling people about it.
I've been distressed for a decade and a half that we don't hear many Muslims in the West condemning the Muslim terrorists, even though I'm confident that many of them do condemn them privately. So I'm pleased that some are now making their condemnation public. But that's only a start. There's a lot more to be done.
OK, dear Muslims: so which parts of the Koran that command violence against unbelievers do you reject?
Like Charles Manson I am an American who likes the Beach Boys. I just want the world to know that Charles Manson didn't act in my name and that he is in no way typical of Americans who like Beach Boys music........Great. Most Muslims are against the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent civilians. I'd feel so much better if they waged a twitter war against those who want to kill cartoonists or those who recommend the random stabbings of Israelis.
An extremist Muslim wants to kill you.
A Moderate Muslim wants the extremist Muslim to kill you.
And atheist Democrat wants that moderate Muslim to be able to support that terrorist Muslim.
Way too little way too late...
Muslims fighting other Muslims for dominance in Syria and Iraq and Yemen or passively condemning the Paris attacks isn't the same as Muslims collectively condemning subjugation of non-Muslims, gender apartheid, Jew hatred, Islamic supremacism, intolerance of free speech, violence against gays, and other draconian aspects of sharia. In those areas most moderate Muslims are quite unprogressive and condemning any aspect of sharia is considered apostasy.
I'm not convinced that Islam is a peaceful religion just because most Muslims don't want to commit jihad murder/suicide for the cause. I don't believe most Muslims are violent but they do wish Islam ruled the world. Regarding jihad I read this advice from a leading sheikh today: "Fighting the occupier and the disbelievers is Jihad providing there is benefit from it to the Muslims. But if fighting leads to the killing of innocents without any gain to Muslims, this becomes prohibited. When the Muslims are weak and not ready, fighting the disbelievers and killing one or two of them that would lead them to retaliate by killing thousands of innocent Muslims and destroying their homes, this is not Jihad but rather sheer stupidity." Sheikh Assim Alhakeem --
This condemnation by Muslims of the Paris attacks reflects the same pragmatism.
The only historical sense in which Islam is a religion of peace is when all its opponents are crushed underfoot. The only thing that paused a near millennium of on and off again war against Europe was inferiority of arms as Islamic culture couldn't match European industrialization, but that advantage has gone with the advent of nukes, missiles, non-sovereign terrorist groups, and European softness. In the modern world, Islam no longer needs an army to do damage, just the cash to buy weapons and enough zealous young people to use them.
Tweets are cheap. The problem is jihad, and there can never really be any peace until the vast majority of Islam rejects it.
the japanese americans had their own "Not in our name" campaign during world war 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqm1HC8CQlg&app=desktop
Kill them all, let Allah sort them out.
Throughout human history adherents to a religion have told other adherents that they are not understanding the religion correctly.
True.
This is why I am unsympathetic to defenders of jihadists.
twitter is a dying medium of communication.
Haven't been on Twitter for years, as it happens.
Perhaps that explains why I, for example, don't go to condemning it as an alternative to condemning my own indulgences. ; )
I surely would not use that as short-hand for explanation.
So the slackivists are on board? It's a step, but a very small step. I'm heartened. A little. I suppose.
When a Christian commits a crime (such as one killing an abortionist) CHRISTIANS hunt him down , prosecute him, and punish him. I see no such action collectively on the part of Muslims. The ones saying this are saying, "I will not kill you, but I don't mind if he does"
About goddamn time.
More, please.
There were 20 hijackers in the 9/11 attack and another 20 in the Paris attack.
So at least 40 Muslims were approached and asked "How would you like to accept almost certain death and in exchange, kill a whole lot of infidels?"
There are two scenarios:
100% of the 40 recruits said "Sure! I love killing infidels"
Or
Hundreds more were approached but only a small minority volunteered. If this is true remember this, not a single one of those approached called the police. Not one.
This won't be received well...
Taquiyya is Koran sanctioned lying to infidels so they can kill more of infidels, you infidel
Bill R,
Wow, even for the commenters on this blog, that's just ridiculously ignorant. If you knew anything about how that all developed, those agents were slowly cultivated, most over a considerable period of time, with each progressive step demonstrating their commitment to Al Qaeda's ideology and reinforcing confidence in their handlers that the idiot could eventually be used in the 9/11 plot. They didn't just walk into a mosque and shout "who wants to fly an airliner into the Pentagon???"
They place less effort in preventing mass murder in their name than they do in complaining about 25 of the last 0 backlashes against Muslims.
This twitter campaign will stop extremist muslims, just like the one against Boko Haram got those kidnapped girls freed. Thanks, Michelle Obama, First Lady, for that one! Those kidnapped girls should be very grateful for your successful efforts to free them, via Twitter.
Oh, wait, Michelle Obama's twitter campaign did nothing to free the hundreds of kidnapped girls in Africa. Because twitter does nothing in meat space.
Never mind.
Blogger Bobby, 11/16/15, 9:07 PM; as I understand history, Muslims fight Muslims in the name of Islam all the time. Shiites, Sunnis, you name it. Nothing special in this and it seems to be part of the ideology.
The English Civil War, where a group of Catholics wanted to overthrow the Protestant government (starting with the gunpowder plot) should be a template for this conflict. It wasn't a great outcome, but it was the best that could be managed.
They’ll speak out against Islamic terrorism as long as they are a small minority in a society. If they are a majority Muslim population in a country their opinions change drastically.
Majority Muslim nations favor terrorism, practice misogyny, honor killings, child rape, child marriages to adults, execution of apostates from the Muslim religion, harassment and murder of Christians, etc., and Sharia rules all aspects of society, beginning with their so-called “judicial” branches of government.
I would never trust Muslims to enter any free nation until they institute free societies within the nations they already govern.
One of the favored memes of Islamic terrorism apologists is that soon Islam will enter a “reformation” at which point they will turn into freedom-loving democrats. But what we are seeing IS the Islamic reformation.
A reformation is a return to fundamentals, as in Luther’s opposition to Catholicism. And what we see with the Muslims in the world today is exactly that - a return to the bloody fundamentals as ordered by Mohammed in the Koran.
Bobby
That's an interesting thought experiment. "walk into a mosque and shout "who wants to fly an airliner into the Pentagon???""
Then count the number of subsequent calls to the FBI.
As a control, you could do the same thing in a Unitarian church.
Bill R,
The FBI has 15,000 paid confidential informants (for comparative purposes, this is up from 1500 in 1975, 2800 in 1980 and 6000 in 1986), so odds are there's at least one Muslim in that mosque whom the FBI is paying specifically for the opportunity to report that information and let the IC take action. Almost 9 in 10 Islamist-inspired terrorist plot are foiled by a friend or family member turning them in (much of the remaining ten percent, frankly, has to be attributed to just plain dumb luck).
There's a reason that post-9/11 terrorist attacks have been so unsuccessful in this country: the national security bureaucracy is very, very good at our jobs, in spite of whom the idiot politicians (from both parties) are that are elected and/or appointed to oversee us.
"Condemnation is merely hollering 'Don't blame me!' That's worthless and self-serving. When are '1.8 billion Muslims' going to shut down ISIS, Al Queda, and their co-religionists as an expression of the peace they espouse?
Hmmm. The complaint used to be that the Muslim community was not vocal enough in condemning the violent acts of the extremists. Now, condemnation is merely "worthless, self-serving hollering." Why don't these chicken-shit slackers leave their homes and jobs and families and form militias to shut the terrorists down? Until they do that, we must assume they're all covert supporters of the extremists!
"When a Christian commits a crime (such as one killing an abortionist) CHRISTIANS hunt him down , prosecute him, and punish him. I see no such action collectively on the part of Muslims. The ones saying this are saying, 'I will not kill you, but I don't mind if he does'"
WFT?! You mean, self-identified CHRISTIANS are committing brutal crimes, and Christian cadres are forming to go hunt them down? In what television show is this a reality?
Oh...I see, you're assuming all your fellow citizens and law enforcement officers are Christian, and that they act as Christians to capture criminals, rather than simply as law enforcement officers doing their jobs.
Robert Cook said...
Now, condemnation is merely "worthless, self-serving hollering."
As usual Robert misunderstands to protect his allies. The point is that this isn't condemnation. It's entirely proforma and the emphasis is on criticizing people who expect them to stand up against violence as if this is somehow inappropriate.
To understand how absurd that argument is consider how our own leaders react in condemning "Islamophobia" that hasn't even occurred.
Rick,
But this is where it becomes problematic- Muslims on #NotInMyName do not count as condemning IS terrorism because it's just more lame Twitter social media posturing, and Muslims need to take "real action" for it to count. Okay, fine. But Kurdish Peshmerga and Free Syrian Army Muslims are, you know, actually fighting against IS terrorists and now that doesn't count, either, because it's in their self-interest to fight... So... what exactly counts?
So... what exactly counts?
Turning in extremists, speaking against them at every opportunity, mass demonstrations showing those beliefs are fringe, shunning those who make excuses for extremists.
Bobby
OK. Fair enough
Rick,
As a point of fact, American Muslims do in fact turn-in their extremists at an extremely high rate. It's one of the main reasons we've managed to stave off so many would-be terrorists attacks in the US. But...
Do we believe that only those white Americans who participated in mass demonstrations against Dylan Roof have condemned murderously violent racism? Because I don't think I saw even one of those. Do we demand that gun rights advocates, at every opportunity, denounce all mass shootings and failure to do so means they support gun violence? The NRA typically just releases a message condemning it and that's considered good enough to demonstrate that they don't support unjustified violence (and for the record, I don't even think they should be expected to do that). Why are Muslims being held to a standard to which you do not hold Americans?
Collective guilt is a hell of a thing. I don't blame nonviolent Muslims for the actions of Muslim terrorists. The Left insist that we not conflate Muslim terrorists with "normal" Muslims and don't let the actions of a small minority taint our view of the majority. Fine.
The Left says based on my race, gender, and the fact that I'm from the south I bear some guilt for the sins of people from hundreds of years ago through to today. The Left is happy to taint everyone on the Right based on the actions of a tiny minority of people, almost all of whom acted alone, whenever the Left decides that some murderer is motivated by "right wing hate." I'm expected to apologize for slavery, for Jim Crow, for sexism in the 19th century, all of it--if I don't then I'm insufficiently educated, or just filled with hate. Contemporary Muslims, though, don't have to apologize for the actions of other contemporary Muslims, since obviously they're not responsible and aren't connected.
Makes sense to someone, I'm sure.
Hoodlum Doodlum,
The Left are stupid. I recommend not trying to use their "logic" in the real world.
Bobby said...
As a point of fact, American Muslims do in fact turn-in their extremists at an extremely high rate.
Really? Why don't you list them for us.
Do we believe that only those white Americans who participated in mass demonstrations against Dylan Roof have condemned murderously violent racism?
Our mass demonstrations on this subject occurred a generation ago. Our opposition is so well founded the example you use occurred because he despaired of finding anyone else who believes as he does.
Do we demand that gun rights advocates, at every opportunity, denounce all mass shootings and failure to do so means they support gun violence?
In fact we do. But I didn't say Muslims who don't denounce terrorists by definition support them. I'm saying that's the price of joining our society. It so happens terrorists can hide within their population. This proximity carries a responsibility just as it was incumbent on Italians to identify their mobsters.
Why are Muslims being held to a standard to which you do not hold Americans?
They are not. The better question is why you do not hold them to standards imposed on all members of civilized society.
Rick,
Start with this article and we can go from there. It's dated (2011), but I think it's the kind of interesting read that civilians can appreciate. You might be surprised at how many American Muslims turn in their co-religionist extremists to the FBI for the same reason that we flip agents overseas: ego, patriotism, money and coercion. Turns out Muslims are susceptible to the same things as Christians and Marxists- who'd have thought?
Rick,
What follows below is just a short summary of some examples of Muslims turning in Muslim would-be terrorists, from 2003-2009.
• September 2002: Members of the “Lackawanna 6” are arrested. FBI first becomes aware of their activities in June 2001 when a local Muslim community member tips off the FBI.
• June 2003: FBI receives two tips from community members notifying them “military-style training” being conducted suspect by Ali Al-Tamimi. The tips start an investigation leading to the arrest of the “Paintball 11” in Northern Virginia.
• August 2004: James Elshafay and Shahwar Matin Siraj are arrested largely based on the controversial use of an informant in the investigation. However NYPD were first notified of Siraj after a Muslim community member anonymously notifies New York police about consistently troubling rhetoric coming from the suspect.
• February 2006: Muslim community members in Ohio provide information help into arrest and eventually convict 3 suspects planning attacks in Iraq.
• August 2006: British authorities arrest a group of British Muslim violent extremists suspected of plotting to blow up several airplanes over the Atlantic. Authorities first become aware of the plot based on a tip from a Muslim community member.
• November 2006: Adnan Babar Mirza, a Pakistani national studying in Houston, TX and is arrested for illegal firearms training and possession. Adnan come to the attention of the FBI when local Houston community members tip them off about Adnan’s activities and alleged intentions.
• July 2009: Mosque leaders in Raleigh, North Carolina contact law enforcement to notify them of “violent, threatening action… considered to be dangerous” leading to the arrest of Daniel Boyd and 6 other individuals.
• September 2009: Queens Imam Ahmad Afazali, a community liaison to the NYPD, helps local police and the FBI in the investigation and arrest of suspect Najibullah Zazi. Though Zazi is initially accused of tipping off Zazi to police surveillance, information in the court complaint 51 and corroborating reporting from mainstream media sources 52 found this notion to be false. (Afzali was, however, deported on charges of lying to FBI agents, but subsequent media reporting also strengthens Afzali’s claims that he was scapegoat for getting caught up in a turf battle between NYPD and FBI officials.)
• November 2009: Five Virginia Muslim youth are arrested in Pakistan, allegedly seeking to join a terrorist group, after family members told American federal authorities they went missing.
And here's from 2010 to 2012:
• March 2010: Michigan Militia member and Muslim convert Matt Savino refuses aid to a fugitive member of the Hutaree Militia and instead helps law enforcement authorities track him down.
• April 2010: Senegalese Muslim Alioune Niass first spots the suspicious vehicle used as a bomb to attack Times Square in New York City. Clues from the vehicle and defused explosive immediately led to the suspect, Faisal Shahzad’s, arrest.
• June 2010: Suspects Mohammed Mahmoud Alessa and Carlos Eduardo Almonte are arrested, after the FBI first receives an anonymous report in 2006 from one of the suspects’ family members. News reports indicate one of Alessa’s family members
provided the tip.
• October 2010: Former Hawaii resident Abdel Hamid Shehadeh is arrested for attempting to join the Taliban. Local media noted that the Muslim Association of Hawaii “assisted law enforcement agencies in the case” and that it has “in the past reported suspicious activities.”
• October 2010: Farooque Ahmed is arrested on charges of allegedly attempting to bomb the Washington, DC metro railway system. The FBI first learns of Ahmed’s intentions from a community tip-off.
• October 2010: An attempt by Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula to bomb Western targets using air cargo transportation is prevented by US and European authorities. Intelligence that prevented the plot came from ex-militant Jabr al-Faifi, who voluntarily handed himself into Saudi authorities.
• November 2010: Mohamed Osman Mohamud is arrested for attempting to bomb a Christmas tree-lighting ceremony in Portland, Oregon. The New York Times notes, “In the Oregon [Mohamud] case, the FBI received a tip from a Portland Muslim.”
• December 2010: Antonio Martinez is arrested for attempting to bomb a military recruiting center in Maryland. Statements from Justice Department officials indicate a Muslim community member reported Martinez to the FBI during its ongoing investigation.
• June 2011: Two Al-Qaeda inspired violent criminals planning to attack a military installation in Seattle are arrested by law enforcement. FBI officials first become aware of the planned attack after a fellow Muslim who was trying to be recruited into the conspiracy went to Seattle Police and informed them of the plot.
• January 2012: Violent Al-Qaeda sympathizer Sami Osmakac is arrested for planning to attack several sites in Tampa, Florida using guns and explosives. The U.S. Attorney for Central Florida noted, “This investigation was also predicated, in part, by assistance from the Muslim community.”
Bottomline: Yes, thankfully, Muslims do report on extremist Muslims. And that's a major reason why Americans of all stripes have been so relatively safe these past ten+ years.
I suggest those people who claim that islam is a religion of peace read the quran.
When they bring us the heads of terrorist conspirators instead of insipid, useless tweets, I'll be a lot more pleasantly inclined.
Bobby said...
"Bottomline: Yes, thankfully, Muslims do report on extremist Muslims. And that's a major reason why Americans of all stripes have been so relatively safe these past ten+ years."
Safe from what, Bobby?
Bobby said...
"Do we believe that only those white Americans who participated in mass demonstrations against Dylan Roof have condemned murderously violent racism?".
Your analogy is bad. Try it like this; Do we believe that only those KKK members who participated in mass demonstrations against Dylan Roof have condemned murderously violent racism?
Well, yeah, actually. When you are a member of a group that was created specifically for the purpose of killing and enslaving and preying upon non-members, and has had considerable success in those endeavors, and shows no signs of stopping, and you refuse to renounce that membership, yeah, we kind of assume you are still down with the violence thing. Like, why would you still be a member of a murderous gang, if you aren't into murder? Are there Moderate Crips? Moderate Bloods? Moderate Mafiosi?
Jupiter,
Exactly! Since 9/11, that all the planned radical Islamist terrorist attacks I listed above were thwarted so that they produced 0 American casualties is a grand accomplishment! In the wake of 9/11, that would have been very difficult for someone to believe, especially if we told them Spain would have 191 killed in the 2004 Madrid train bombings, Turkey would get 102 killed in last month's Ankara suicide bombings, Paris would suffer 137 deaths in last weekend's mass shootings, and 2005 London subway bombings which killed about 50 (I think about 780 injured, though); we'd have assumed that we'd get our share of terrorist attacks, too.
That's a huge achievement that belongs directly to the national security bureaucracy, and it has NOTHING to do with whatever idiot is in the White House (a lot of douches here seem to think that's the only thing that matters and try hard to make everything about Democrats and Republicans - it doesn't and it isn't, the professionals do our job regardless of which crappy party happens to be in power).
Liberals love to point out that, since 9/11, domestic right-wing extremism has accounted for more terrorist deaths in the USA than radical Islam, and okay that's true statistically. But it's also highly deceptive. The IC has devoted tons of resources to tracking, penetrating and defeating radical Islamist attacks, and the result is the above list- which is by no means exhaustive, by the way- never being implemented. If we were only half as successful at preventing those attacks, then domestic right-wing extremism would look like a Twitter campaign compared to the damage that the Islamist extremists would have done.
Bobby,
I gather that you are one of these "professionals" you believe are doing such a great job of preventing the Boston Marathon bombing. I can understand that you see a substantial US population of Muslims as essential to the preservation of your livelihood. They are both the danger you protect against, and the tool you use to attack it. How nice for you.
Jupiter,
"Are there Moderate Crips? Moderate Bloods? Moderate Mafiosi?"
Again it depends on how one defines the term "moderate" and we've seen on the other thread that we seem to have a problem coming up with a consensus and consistent definition of "moderate Muslim." But if it were me, just taking a stab, I would define the "extremist" Mafiosi as the guys carrying out the murders and other violent acts, and the "moderate" Mafiosi as, like, the guy who runs the gay bar (after Stonewall, we learned that some large percentage of gay clubs in NYC were Mafia-owned), maybe the guy who collects the betting slips, the guy who runs over your trash cars if you don't go with the Mafia affiliated trash pick up site, and the crooked cops who look the other way in the aforementioned businesses in exchange for cash. They're all Mafiosi, right? But we can agree that their actions allow us to come up with modifiers that clearly define the differences between them.
I mean, if we can't differentiate between those two groups of people- like if these actions are determined to always be the same- then there's not much use in having adjectives in the English language.
Bobby,
I'd say you're on the right track. You've got your moderate gangsters, and your extremists gangsters. And of course, as long as you have any of the former, from time to time you'll get a few of the latter. Which is why I say, get rid of all of them. I can't really see how importing more of them is a constructive use of tax dollars.
Jupiter,
"I gather that you are one of these "professionals" you believe are doing such a great job of preventing the Boston Marathon bombing."
That wasn't the least bit connected to my portfolio, so I'm not the least bit offended. But let me just say that, if you are expecting perfection from the national security community on terrorist attacks, then sometime in the future, you are going to be disappointed. Like seriously disappointed. Like, if we were drinking at the bar, this is where I'd say "Like, almost as disappointed as your prom date when you took off your boxers." But we're not drinking at the bar, so I won't.
So basically, your position is that we keep on importing Muslims, because they are so helpful in the preventing terrorist attacks. And we should keep on paying you to prevent terrorist attacks, 'cause you're very good at it. But we should expect that from time to time, some of those helpful Muslims will plan a terrorist attack, and you won't find out about it until you read about it in the papers. Which you will, because a bunch of us will get killed. Sounds like you've got this all worked out. Buy yourself another one, it's on me.
Jupiter,
"So basically, your position is that we keep on importing Muslims, because they are so helpful in the preventing terrorist attacks."
Nope. Nothing that I've said on this thread or any other thread on this blog or elsewhere has ever related to whether we should or should not allow 10 or 10,000 or any other number of Syrians to immigrate to the US. That discussion is taking place on at least a couple different threads, both of which I've deliberately chosen not to participate. My comments mean only what they mean in response to the quotes I cite and in the context in which they were made, none of which relate to the issue of whether we should or should not be "importing Muslims."
I have noticed that the "terrorists" that the "professionals" arrest always turn out to be dimwitted teenagers who agreed to go along with a "plot" cooked up by some undercover agent they met at the mosque. Whether these poor saps are really a danger is open to question. Of course, they would also have been willing to go along with a plot cooked up by a real Islamic terrorist. When you have Muslims, you are going to have terror.
OK, so they turn each other in from time to time. However, Where is the Muslim Peace Movement? Where are their Peace demonstrations? Where is their Center for Islamic Peace Studies? Who are the Islamic clergy leading their Peace movement, what are their names? Anyone know?
Jupiter,
Dammit, not everyone we entrap is a dimwitted teenager- sometimes we frame perfectly capable young men! Let it go before you find something out that you don't want to know!
Ken in TX,
Are you talking specifically here (USA) or abroad?
Cognoscenti condescension:
"Scott, Carnifex, et. al.,
"I know this is probably going to fall on deaf ears because it doesn't fit into your pre-conceived notion of what's what in the world, but just to be clear: Muslims are fighting against the Islamic State every single day..."
Reality:
Istanbul fans boo minute of silence for Paris attacks, chant "Allahu akbar" before Turkey vs Greece soccer friendly
Go fuck yourself
Not that we can really trust what they say. The Prophet directed the faithful to lie to the non-believers.
Scott,
That video demonstrates that there were several thousand radical Muslims in a stadium in Turkey. That doesn't contradict the fact that there are Kurdish and FSA Muslims fighting IS right now or that Muslims turn in extremist Muslims here in the USA or anything else I've said on this thread. It merely demonstrates that there's radical Muslims out there, something the rest of us always knew.
It might demonstrate the percentage of villains is higher than you think.
Nichevo,
That would be difficult since I don't really have a grasp on what the percentage of villains could possibly be. My use of figures on the other thread was just hypothetical and actually to demonstrate that even at the same rate as "murdering cops" (and a rather low rate for that), the damage that just two dozen terrorists did in Paris could be projected out into six figures (96,750 deaths, if anyone actually did the math) over the next generation. And that's at an absurdly low rate- as Sammy then noted, even if you just triple the rate, it's still entirely plausible and the result is catastrophic. That was my whole point about us not even being close to seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
Maybe I don't say it enough for the Amen Corner on this blog, so let me be clear: you will never find evidence of me saying that Islam is a Religion of Peace, because I've never said it and I've never believed it. You will never find evidence of me personally refusing to use the term Muslim terrorist or radical Muslim or extremist Muslim or radical or extremist Islamist to describe these terrorists because I know very well whom we are fighting. I've spent my entire adult life fighting these guys, I've got the scars to prove it, and I've buried lots of really good friends. But people here seem to think that there's no room for expressing anything short of some of the most absurd falsehoods on the right, and there's no need for that.
"Are there Moderate Crips? Moderate Bloods? Moderate Mafiosi?"
Anyone who would compare Muslims in toto to street gangs and organized crime syndicates is just arguing dishonestly and is driven by simple bigotry.
Scott,
That video demonstrates that there were several thousand radical Muslims in a stadium in Turkey.
If you have specific facts to corroborate your speculation that the chanting was done by only a small portion of the fans, then deliver them. If not, then apparently you're full of shit.
Scott,
"If you have specific facts to corroborate your speculation that the chanting was done by only a small portion of the fans, then deliver them. If not, then apparently you're full of shit."
I have no way of knowing how many people disrupted the moment of silence, so I would not posit whether it was a "small portion" or a "large portion." However, according to Reuters, the match was played at Istanbul Basaksehir stadium, which has a sell out crowd of 17,000. If everyone was in the stadium for the start of the match (a fair assumption for being a Euro 2016 qualifer and not Los Angeles), numerically-speaking, "several thousand" would adequately describe anything between 17.6% (3000) and 100% (17,000). I think it was a safe word choice.
And again, even if it had been a sellout crowd of 56,000 at Dodger Stadium, that would not in any way refute the FACTS I presented earlier that (a) Kurdish and Free Syrian Army MUSLIMS are fighting IS every single day; and (b) several times in the last ten+ years, as presented in the above list, Muslims have turned-in and reported on extremist Muslims and prevented terrorist attacks. You're introducing something quite different than what we were previously discussing, and that's okay, but it's sad that you think it was some kind o of logical refutation.
I know those don't conform to your pre-conceived notions of the world, so please do respond with an ad hominem. I hope it makes you feel better about yourself.
Nobody is denying that Islam is a house divided. The point (I think) is that the odds of a mohareb (hirabi?) in the woodpile, or a lot of them, are too high to casually wave 'em on in to batten on the Western welfare states.
My resentment and the resentment of many is that we're not eager to bet our lives on the Obama Administration's, or the UN and OIC's, judgment in this matter, matched by their total indifference to the judgment of the people intended to host and accommodate them.
Even if they were all non threats, I would still hate to pay for them, and it seems the pattern is they don't work; and if they did, we're not crammed with excess job opportunities here, or anywhere it seems.
But above all, we despise being conned, and we especially detest having our noses rubbed in it.
Also Bobby - FSA fighting IS - isn't the problem that we could find nobody, and by nobody I mean like 5 or 50 guys, to fight...whoever it was we want to fight over there, and not fight or defend the right/wrong people? Is FSA the good guys (now/again)? I'm so confused.
Nichevo,
Yeah, the "4 or 5 guys" that GEN Austin cites is a perfect example of a quote that can become misleading when it's taken out of context. The $500-million DOD program to organize, equip and train the Syrian rebels produced about 50 guys, of whom maybe 4 or 5 are left on the battlefield. But DOD's program has primarily been constrained by a prohibition on training the rebels in Syria- they have to be transported to Turkey, Jordan, etc., where they receive their training, get their weapons and get sent back in -- all the while leaving their village's defense short-handed by whomever is getting trained abroad. That's a main (though by no means, not the only) reason CENTCOM's program is failing so badly (the vetting requirement is also absurd- think about that in context of the refugee debate, right?).
But DOD is not the only US Government agency training the Free Syrian Army affiliates. The CIA's Special Activities Division, specifically its Ground Branch, has its own organize, train and equip the Syrian rebels program- funded separately from the DOD program- and it has many different rules and is far more successful in producing anti-ISIS, anti-Assad fighters. The FSA is a coalition of about a dozen different affiliates, mostly secular and "moderate" Sunnis (not the same thing), so its total strength is not so easy to pinpoint, but it is estimated between 40,000 and 65,000 troops.
And, seriously people, if you're confused about the FSA and who they are and who is who on the battlefield, now is the time to learn about them before spouting of support for "THIS is what we need to do!" Like if you don't even know who is who, then don't try telling people you know what the answer is because that's just ridiculous.
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