"He’s a man with a role in history, not just in church history... The seal of sainthood doesn’t close the debate on history... In a certain sense, for many Catholics he’s already a saint, even without beatification and, let’s be honest, even without a miracle."
ADDED: Longer video here.
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I liked Pope John Paul II.
Just don't tell Hitchens.
I also liked Pope John Paul II. I truly wish that he had been more involved in disciplining the abusive priests and bishops covering up their horrible actions. JPII was great in returning the Church to its theological path, but his failure to lead on the abuse issue saddens me, and (unfortunately, but rightfully) angers many.
"even without beatification and, let's be honest, even without a miracle"
Everything eventually gets watered down.
That was written not in scorn, but with a little sadness.
John Paul, Maggie Thatcher, and Reagan broke the Soviets.
Not sure beatification is the right thing here, but I do agree with Fred.
PS Patrick's point is not without justification, also.
Unless I miss my guess, the exhumation is performed to ascertain that the candidate for beatification was not buried alive. If such were the case, it would be assumed that he despaired, and so casts doubt on his attainment of heaven. Pretty medieval, but the Church doesn't readily give things up.
wv:plath--I think she wrote Arrival of the Pope Box or something
Eh, whatever.
I originally read that as "beautification" and was like "dang, they've got their work cut out for them there".
Golly. I thought this was about Obama.
Patrick, agreed Pope John Paul's biggest failure was not dealing more forcefully with the priest abuse scandal.
As for Hitchens, hey he needs his windmills to tilt at (and some of his criticisms are legitimate). I hope he is doing better and recovers from his cancer.
Mark O., very funny! That is good.
F4P, I too certainly wish Hitchens the best in his battle. The guy is a joy to read.
The whole thing is a farce.
I'm sure a lot of Poles already try intercession by praying to him anyway, this formalizes things a bit.
Is one of the miracles he's associated with being elected Pope as a non-Italian? It's difficult to remember how amazing that was back in 1978.
I grew up Catholic during the reign of John Paul II.
All that my local preist talked about was politics. How we should vote the Republican way; how abortions and the people who have them and the people who allow their legalization are all evil; how AIDS is a punishment of gay people from God.
Then there was the whole "youth is terrible" schtick. It was a little hard to take that in my heart as I did, being a youth and all...
When I was a teenager and I felt lost, I went to the church to seek guidance on how to live my life. It was the first place I turned to. The priest didn't care. He told me, essentially, that they don't provide guidance for young people.
Later on they told me I couldn't take communion because I had nervous tics and there were afraid I might drop the holy bread or holy wine. Subsequently, I was encouraged not to attend mass because of the way I looked, twitching as I was.
That's my experience of the church under John Paul II.
Julius how long ago? I can't imagine a parish like that nowadays. The nasty old priests and monsignors are dying off..It's all liberal psycho-touchy feely stuff with mushy pop music now. Nuns nonexistent or ask not to be called as such. Very little talk of sin lest someone feel marginalized.
But your experience explains why so many older Catholics e drifted away long before the abuse scandals. If it wasn't pre-Vat II abuses it was the post-Vat II ones.
It's a cross to bear for sure.
As reformed protestants, we accept that Karol Jozeph Wojtyla was a saint by the sanctifying power of the sacrifice of Jesus. He also seemed to be a rare loving man and an astute politician. So what's the big dispute in the Roman Catholic Church about now? To me it resembles ESPN experts handicapping weaknesses and strengths of NFL draft choices. So what Karol was not perfect in his entire life . He did his job well and he will be judged for eternal rewards by his Lord.
@Carol-
That was mid to late 1980s.
The old priest who ran my parish died shortly after that. From what I understand, the higher-ups in the church had quite a problem getting the parish back in shape. After a few years, they closed it and merged it with a nearby one. My old church is now a storage facility.
I couldn't have done it without the Holy Mother.
"It's all liberal psycho-touchy feely stuff with mushy pop music now."
Not in Brooklyn it isn't. Making a projection from a small sample to a large group doesn't work here any better than it does elsewhere.
It's too soon to rush into beatifying anyone so recently passed.
I'm reminded of the Father Guido Sarducci bit where he discusses a canonization where the Vatican allowed a "couple of card tricks" as miracles.
No good comes when the Church mixes church politics and "enthusiasm". Let the canonization process proceed in a slow and deliberative manner.
It's not like JPII going anywhere.
@Julius,
Oy, it sure sucks when you have a bad parish priest. It used to be there'd be multiple priests in a parish and you could balance the functional guy off against the assclown.
Sadly, for quite some time now, there's only one and you're stuck with him, good or bad.
He was a good man who got a lot of things right and a few things wrong. If he denied the evils of child abuse, he recognized the evils of Communism.....Those who lived their whole lives in a state of denial of the crimes inherent in Marxism will find that his inattention to the church scandals was the central, defining characteristic of his Papacy.
Is one of the miracles he's associated with being elected Pope as a non-Italian? It's difficult to remember how amazing that was back in 1978
Indeed. My Catholic school had a lot of Pollacks and I still remember my 6th grade teacher Ms. Kuszcinski marched a bunch of us down the hall to Ms. Torelli's 8th grade class to chant 'Hail Mary full of grace, the degos are in second place.'
My folks got a chuckle when I went home and asked what a dego was.
I'm reminded of the Father Guido Sarducci bit where he discusses a canonization where the Vatican allowed a "couple of card tricks" as miracles.
Oh man I remember that bit.
"I know alotta Italians with 5 to 6 miracles to their name and this Mother Teresa has two and one of them I hear was a card trick. Its all politics I tell ya."
(The Crypto Jew)
Not really buying your sob story....Julius.
Communion, as the Priest handed the Host to the congregant until Vatican II and PLACED UPON YOUR TONGUE...you shaking is an irrelvancy....even TODAY the traditional Communion is performed, for those with Infants for those who cannot or will not take the Host in their hands....and the Blood, is optional, anyway....
Your Boo-Hoo look how the Church treated me is wearing a little thin...and you might seek out ANOTHER parish, being an adult and all...they're like restaurants, if you don't like one style, Italian, Greek, Steak, there are others.
What's political about being against the murder of unborns and stating that AIDS is the punishment for the practice of perverted sex? Nothing. Those are orthodox Catholic positions. Julius says his priest was a bad priest when in truth what Julius wanted was confirmation of HIS prejudices and didn't get it from a priest with integrity.
Julius, preists (and ministers, rabbis, nuns, etc.) are human. Some are good and some are bad. You had a bad one. The good thing is you can always vote with your feet and find one you like.
I say that as one who through years of parochial school and ecumenical dating and religious observation saw some of the best, some of the worse, and some of the middling.
Julius your experience is common. This is nothing but a PR stunt to revive an ailing institution. Im a 12 yr vet of Catholic schools and I credit the nuns for making me the lib I am today. Sadly, like all women who are Catholic, nuns are marginalized to the sidelines. It's like an ethnicity, Ill always be Catholic, but the abuse tolerated and covered up by the popes and RC church has left me deeply saddened and distrustful of the men who run the church.
My reading of Julius is that he was observing events of his childhood (in the 1980s). Those of use who had asshole pastors/priests/church leaders when we were teenagers sympathize.
Julius, your priest really was not very good. What a crapweasel he must have been.
preists (and ministers, rabbis, nuns, etc.) are human.
My mother uses that excuse. I ceased to buy it a long time ago with our religion. The very structure of most conservative religions creates an environment of abuse of authority, which then leads to other abuses. The same churches comdemn this abuse in words, but do very little to stop it with action.
The Catholic church has been despicable in how it's dealt with child sexual abuse. There is no chance in hell that if there is a God, that he would endorse this kind of bullshit. John Paul II was up to his neck in all of this and should burn in hell (if it exists) as far as I'm concerned. (Among other things, he gave refuge to abusive priests in the Vatican.) If he's only human, then why the pretense of beatifcation?
I had some terrible nuns growing up. One who was insane and would throw 1st graders books out the window if they made a mistake. As you can imagine, she threw a lot of text books out the window. She was old and senile. They sent her off to the old nuns home shortly thereafter.
I also had some amazing women as nuns. One who spent a lot of time in Bolivia and Peru. She was awesome. Two who were exceptional science teachers--and this was in grade school. They were far better than science teachers I had in high school and college. They were very rigorous on the scientific method.
If your nuns turned you into a lefty liberal though, that is too bad. Most lefty liberals have mush minds. Now a classical liberal? That is something worth being.
Joe, you have some anger issues. Instead of church, you should try fly fishing on Sundays. You have to be calm to tie proper knots and cast properly. It is very zen like. Pick a stream where you can mostly be alone.
But I agree with you PJPII was weak when it came to priest abuse issues.
Fred, you have denial issues. See how easy that is?
I don't go to church; I thought I made pretty clear that I think organized religion is a crock.
Don't like fishing either, though it if I liked to eat fish, I suppose that could change my mind.
I'm not Catholic, and while I am Protestant, I have a bit of a radical perspective on the church. I both love the church and also tend to agree with what Joe said, well at least the part about structures of churches often leading to abuse of authority.
What's interesting to me, as I think about it, is how John Paul II was amazing in his stand against communism but seems to have suffered from the very blindness leads communism to be so terrible.
Basically, it is about the particular and the general. Communism argues for a utopia based on a general view of humanity as a collective. Particular people are not necessarily important, only is as much as they participate with the collective goal. So, abuses tend to be inherent, as those who get in the way of such progress have to be crushed or pushed aside, lest they undermine the work of some group or person who is leading the way.
That's precisely, I think, the problem in the church. Priests were seen as key models of a particular expression, and as such their abuses were basically excused or ignored because of the supposedly greater work of their overall vocation. Meanwhile the particular people in parishes were often ignored, abused, or shoved aside.
In contrast, however, Christianity is, at its essence, extremely interested in the particular person, and only as the gathered specific people do we find a universal expression.
John Paul fought the evils of an atheistic communism, but allowed the same basic problems to exist within what is essentially a religious expression of the same model.
This is just something that occurred to me now, and far from thought out, so pardon my attempt to sketch it out here in a less than adequate way.
"The very structure of most conservative religions creates an environment of abuse of authority, which then leads to other abuses."
There are always liberal religions to fall back on.
Perhaps you are spirtual.
The key to anything is trusting your own insticts and not being sucked in to things harmful to you. You are responsible for your own life and safety. And you need to teach your children to be that way too. Be it under the guise of old school relgiion, new ageism, or anything else.
I mostly catch and release with a fly rod, but fresh cold steelhead cut thin and eaten as sashimi with some wasabi and soy sauce can be like this.
Julius how long ago? I can't imagine a parish like that nowadays.
Don't tell me you fell for that.
Those who lived their whole lives in a state of denial of the crimes inherent in Marxism will find that his inattention to the church scandals was the central, defining characteristic of his Papacy.
Excellent point. From my experience in Poland, my take on JPII and clerical abuse is that, from his view of the priesthood, such things were nigh on impossible and so he couldn't fully gasp their reality or enormity. That also explains how Maciel conned him.
Remember: he trained for the priesthood in secret under Nazi occupation. His whole experience of the priesthood was one of tutelage by martyrs, heroes, and saints. Unfortunately, that left him unprepared for the decadence of many Western clerics.
Some of you might like this. From a different Althouse thread below.
Those who lived their whole lives in a state of denial of the crimes inherent in Marxism will find that his inattention to the church scandals was the central, defining characteristic of his Papacy.
This reminds me of Chris Rock's infamous routine about black people vs. n*s -- people wanting credit for shit they're *supposed* to do.
"I take care of my kids! -- you're SUPPOSED to, you dumb motherfucker!"
"I ain't never been to jail! -- what do you want, a cookie? You're not SUPPOSED to go to jail!".
This is how I feel when people praise the world's highest-ranking Christian for being against mass-murdering atheists. The pope's anti-Communist? He's SUPPOSED to be anti-Communist you low-expectation-havin' motherf*ckers!
Doing something about it when you learn your underlings are raping kids? ALSO an example of something normal people know to do. But not, apparently, popes.
(The Crypto Jew)
The Catholic church has been despicable in how it's dealt with child sexual abuse. There is no chance in hell that if there is a God, that he would endorse this kind of bullshit. John Paul II was up to his neck in all of this and should burn in hell (if it exists) as far as I'm concerned. (Among other things, he gave refuge to abusive priests in the Vatican.) If he's only human, then why the pretense of beatification?
Bla-Blah-Long Screed_blah-Blah… Shorter version I have a case of the @rse with Yhwh, so THERE….I’m sure that you launch into the SAME tirade when you read about school teachers or parents or wood workers abusing children, too…RIGHT. Nah I doubt it, because you’ve get a case of the @res with Yhwh….
IF you grasped the idea of Sainthood you’d grasp beatification, BECAUSE they’re human…you don’t grasp sainthood, because you don’t really “know your enemy,” RELIGION, you just have a bug-boo image in your head about Religion, because you’ve got a case of the @rse with Yhwh.
Saints are humans who have excelled, say St. Paul; who denied Christ three times, who tempted Christ-“Get thee behind me S@tan”, who had some “thorn in his flesh” that galled and goaded him, gay, lust, gluttony, pride…Paul does NOT say, but says it was a weakness…See it’s his HUMANNESS and accomplishment INSPITE of humanness that count…not that s/he was human and a sinner….
You’d know this, but you’re too busy being angry at Yhwh to bother understanding that which angers you. BECAUSE IF you bothered, you might discover that Yhwh isn’t so bad, and His many sects on Earth aren’t so evil, and that your anger stems from YOUR problems and failures, not Yhwh’s problems and failures. Wrap yourself in your “righteous anger” I’m sure it keeps you warm at night and sustains you in your anger at your mother or your family, or your abuse…or whatever thorn in YOUR flesh you suffer from. It may prevent you from DEALING with that thorn, but that’s OK, you can be angry rather than healed.
(The Crypto Jew)
This is how I feel when people praise the world's highest-ranking Christian for being against mass-murdering atheists. The pope's anti-Communist? He's SUPPOSED to be anti-Communist you low-expectation-havin' motherf*ckers!
That’s all you got? Well get back to me when Hitchens and Hobswawm have OPPOSED MASS-MURDERING ATHEISM…because I understand Hobswawm hasn’t done so yet. Yeah, get back to me when Western Intellectuals, OPPOSE Mass-Murdering Atheists…
Saints are humans who have excelled, say St. Paul; who denied Christ three times...
St. Peter.
That’s all you got? Well get back to me when Hitchens and Hobswawm have OPPOSED MASS-MURDERING ATHEISM…
Tu quoque fallacy.
Golly. I thought this was about Obama.
The quote is very clear that it doesn't mean Obama. I mean it says right there, "...without a miracle." Remember the miracle when Obama stopped the oceans from rising? I think he struck a rock with his teleprompter.
(The Crypto Jew)
St. Peter.
My bad, I AM a Jew, after all….
with mushy pop music now.
You are being to kind in your assessment of the drivel that is in the Gather hymnal. Even Lutherans hardly sing Marty Haugen and he's one of theirs. If I ever convert to being a Protestant, it will be because I can no longer take the horrible music in the Catholic church these days. I am convinced that after the Reformation, the deal was that the Catholics would keep the real estate and the Protestants would keep the music.
(The Crypto Jew)
Gee I don’t know nothing about Fallacies, Revenant, all I can say, Is opposing Mass MURDERING ATHEISTS, isn’t so obvious…as folks like Hitchens, Hobsbawm, and a host of others didn’t and still don’t…
So I guess it’s as Clausewitz says, “In war everything is simple, but even the simple is DIFFICULT” or if you prefer a religious quote, “Love your G*d with all your heart, mind, and soul. Love your neighbor as you love yourself” These are the Keys to the Kingdom…two simple phrases…not at all difficult, and the most difficult thing in the world…
Back around to point, tell me why it is UNREMARKABLE that the Pope did something that Secular Scholars have YET to do?
I don't know if it's a "fallacy" but I
d say your were just trying to deflect and protect yourself from the TRUTH.
My sister-in-law is a protestant, borned in krakow and emigrated to Canada about 30 years ago as young teen. We watched PBS documentary about rise of Solidary and she was impressed with the role of the future pope in the peaceful revolution. That was a miracle.
Gather hymnal
Is that the blue one? Agreed. Ugh.
My Catholic Church is using a Red hymnal now, don't recall what it's called. It's got the 11 + 1 polygons on the front.
Gee I don’t know nothing about Fallacies, Revenant, all I can say, Is opposing Mass MURDERING ATHEISTS, isn’t so obvious…as folks like Hitchens, Hobsbawm, and a host of others didn’t and still don’t.
Well, go read something about fallacies, then. You'll learn why "oh, yeah, well so-and-so was worse!" is not a valid reply to an accusation that someone behaved badly.
There are a lot of bad people in the world. Anyone with common sense knows this. Are people who are soft on communism worse than people who are soft on child rape? Sure. I guess.
But so what? I'm not inclined to hold either sort of person up as someone to be emulated.
On most issues that can be quantified, even the best of us are wrong a good bit of the time. Churchill sponsored a famine in India and drank himself into early dementia. Hitler was a man of chaste habits. How many lives would have been saved if we had all followed his advice regarding cigarettes and a vegatarian diet? On balance though, I would say that Churchill was a better man than Hitler and is more worthy of veneration.....John Paul definitely blew the call regarding sexual abuse by the clergy. There's no excuse for this except to say that alternatives exclude and nothing can be sole or whole unless it has first been rent. In comparison to the other public figures of his era, he looks pretty good.
(The Crypto Jew)
Gee I don’t know nothing about Fallacies, Revenant, but I will say I wasn’t saying Hobsbawm was worse, I was a’say’n your point if OBVIOUSLY lame, as Smart Messr. Hitchens, Hobsbawm, and thousands of others NEVER OPPOSED MASS MURDER’N Atheists, didn’t and still haven’t…. Guess it weren’t so UNREMARKABLE, now as it Revenant?
After all the flower of the Western Intelligentsia didn’t and mostly still haven’t opposed it….Guess we’ll give ole’ John Paul II some ‘props after all.
But you keep on trying to rewrite history, in a few decades them of us what lived thru it will be dead, an’ if’n you’re young enough you’ll be able to sell that codswallop to the folks coming after me.
(The Crypto Jew)
But I will say that John Paul IS BETTER than Hobshawm or Hitchens, Revenant, or that they are WORSE than John Paul II, but that is apart from the discussion of how blindingly obvious it was to oppose Mass Murdering Atheists……
All you whining pansies...the priests were mean to me!
Try this:
I went to a Catholic school in Brooklyn in the 70's from 1st through 8th grade, that was run by Black-Belt Domincan nuns who could kill a child with a thrown chalkboard eraser at 50 yards. Blindfolded, and with a head cold.
In hand-to-hand combat situations, they were armed with metal yardsticks and rulers with long, with sharpened edges. Some carried an additional weapon: a heavy metal crucifix attached to a length of chain. This could be used to lasso any student that managed to evade the standard ear and hair tug, or as a bolo to trip fleeing students up.
One particularly sadistic penguin used to punish unruly students by making them kneel, extend their arms and then placing a Webster's Dictionary upon each upturned palm and instructing the student not to let their arms drop, or they'd get a whacking.
I believe she had learned that one while sharing a cell with John McCain.
Another made misbehaving students run in place until they literally vomited. She also once made one student run around the gym with a galvanized bucket over his head. Naturally, he couldn't see the wall he ran into.
By the way, in those days if the nuns punished you like that -- and you complained about it to your parents -- you got a second beating for disrespecting a nun.
I then went on to a Catholic High School run the Christian Brothers of St. Jean Baptiste de Le Salle, and where apparently half the brothers were of Irish descent, which meant a) they were usually drunk and beligerent, and b) before joining the order, half of them had been tried-and-failed Golden-Gloves boxers.
Beatings were handed out for long hair, facial hair, unshined shoes, latenesses. Latin was a required course for all four years,and was taught by a Brother who looked as if he had stepped out of Goya painting, and who might easily be mistaken for Rasputin.
Because he had three heart attacks in the four years I went there, and hardly took a day off. Rumor has it that his ghost still haunts the place.
And you know what? All That still comes with the BEST EDUCATION ANYONE COULD EVER GET!
Joe --
Which "MASS MURDER’N Atheists" has Hitchens not opposed, say?
(The Crypto Jew)
Oligonicella,
IIRC correctly, was a SOVIET Apologist a la Galloway in the 1980’s….that being the case, I’d say Hitchens didn’t OPPOSE THE SOVIET MASS MURDER’N ATHEISTS…..
It’s one of the reasons I don’t care for the “Hitch”…He gets a pass on supporting a regime MORE MURDEROUS than Hitler’s…ask Leni Riefenstahl about what it was like to have to live AFTER the war, and have worked with Hitler…and then explain how Hitchens, and Hobshawm and others don’t face the same opprobrium….and actually they deserve WORSE opprobrium the crimes were GREATER, AND everyone KNEW of them, but folks like Hitchens and Hobshawm just denied them, or explained them away, or diminished them, or used moral equivalency and so Hobshawm is still a renowned British Historian and Hitchens is a renowned “Public Intellectual”. When in reality, they were idiots, who backed the wrong philosophy and produced apologia for mass murder.
(The Crypto Jew)
Oligonicella,
A more nuanced view upon reflection is that Hitchens found the Soviet Union distasteful, but necessary…he was a Trotskyite. As such his brand of Hard Left Marxism never got a chance to kill tens of millions, unlike Lenin’s and Stalin’s, but I’m sure if given a chance they would have….
But support Hitchens if you like.
The A-houser neo-cons forget that JP II was not a pal of the American right:
John Paul II sent his personal representative, Cardinal Pio Laghi, a friend of the Bush family, to remonstrate with the U.S. President before the war began. Pio Laghi said such a war would be illegal and unjust. The message was clear: God is not on your side if you invade Iraq.
res ipsa loquitur. Small wonder that Hitchens--however witty, a chickenhawk for the last 8 years or so--did not care for JP II.
(The Crypto Jew)
Now let’s see were there any OTHER folks who ought to have opposed mass-murdering atheists? H’ummmmmmmmmmmmmm how about Ted Kennedy, except for the part where he contacted Andropov about helping defeat REAGAN in 1984…or the signatories of the “Dear Commandant” Lettre to the Sandinista Regime in Nicaragua….or let’s see Oliver Stone or Michael Moore fawning over Castro in the 1990’s…or Tom Friedman of the NYT who seems to believe that the People’s Republic of China has the “edge” on the US, in the 2000’s.
You know Revenant it seems there are BOAT LOADS OF SMART PEOPLE, who didn’t or DON’T oppose Mass Murdering Atheists. I guess ole’ John Paul II was a little more “special” than you might let one, now…huh? Suddenly, opposing mass murdering atheists looks a little less easy and obvious, don’t it Revenant…after all many of the West’s political and intellectual elite didn’t…AlGore, Jimmy Carter, that nice Senator Kerry (Who I understand served in Vietnam)…the obvious ones Jane Fonda or Tom Hayden, William Ayers also spring to mind.
After all the flower of the Western Intelligentsia didn’t and mostly still haven’t opposed it….Guess we’ll give ole’ John Paul II some ‘props after all.
Yes, he had all the moral insight of the average American high school student when it came to Communism, although sadly he lagged far behind the average American high school student when it came to the morality of protecting child rapists.
You remind me of the folks who praise "moderate" Muslims for speaking out against suicide bombing and the subjugation of women, as if they'd achieved some wonderful moral revelation instead of simply achieving the level of moral insight any thinking westerner expects from his fellow man.
Mass murdering atheists?
Why, Krypto-Joe, that would be your role model Kissinger and his boy Nixon, wouldn't it--not to say the neo-con swine who organized the Iraq war.
John Kerry however hypocritical understands that.
The article answers most of the questions posted here.
The miracle attributed to his intercession the curing of a nun's Parkinson's disease.
He's being exhumed to be put on display for veneration. (I have to say, I'm Catholic, and I have a bit of an "ew" reaction to that. I'm not into the relics and remains aside from the science-y neatness of them.)
(The Crypto Jew)
Yes, he had all the moral insight of the average American high school student when it came to Communism, although sadly he lagged far behind the average American high school student when it came to the morality of protecting child rapists.
1)
So simple only a humble priest from krakow and high school students could do it, eh? Too bad Tom Friedman and Michael Moore couldn't muster the intellectual to do the same. You keep right on with that chicken, though...that 30 years after the fact, IT'S OBVIOUS...
I bet you talk about the “incivility” of today's discourse and “long” for the discourse of the 1980's.
Any gal who admires Treasure of Sierra Madre, Barry Lyndon, the Good, the bad, and the Ugly, Kurosawa, and....even the RCC (in a somewhat rational manner)---receives ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ from J.
(The Crypto Jew)
Yes, he had all the moral insight of the average American high school student when it came to Communism, although sadly he lagged far behind the average American high school student when it came to the morality of protecting child rapists.
Revenant, might have been nice if the High School teacher opposed Mass Murdering Atheists, but it seems not too many of them would or do......
It's rather amusing watching someone having a meltdown while accusing everyone else of being angry and irrational. It's even more comical that he's a Jew and arguing about a Pope.
(The Crypto Jew)
It's rather amusing watching someone having a meltdown while accusing everyone else of being angry and irrational. It's even more comical that he's a Jew and arguing about a Pope.
Melt down, ain't no melting down here...just someone trying to say EVERYONE opposed the Mass-Murdering Atheists, when if you were close to aware of either the era or the history of the era, you would know that to be terribly false.
I spoke to you that's not melting down, that's telling you that you don't understand beatification, and you don't care to learn...
(The Crypto Jew)
It's rather amusing watching someone having a meltdown while accusing everyone else of being angry and irrational. It's even more comical that he's a Jew and arguing about a Pope.
Angry, irrational...no in profound disagreement with you and Revenant...now you and he may be sooper-geniuses and therefore not used to be argued with, but that's not angry or irrational.
I'd say you've had a been time and YOUR anger is what's the problem...
I'm not Catholic, and while I am Protestant, I have a bit of a radical perspective on the church. I both love the church and also tend to agree with what Joe said, well at least the part about structures of churches often leading to abuse of authority.
Same, except that I am Catholic.
Any gal who admires...
Ha.
I think anyone who becomes Pope or leader of any large organization has some amount of ambition and some knowledge of bureaucratic infighting. I don't mean this as a slam, but he was not a completely unworldly man. Also, I think part of him wished to protect the best interests of the organization which he headed and loved. I don't think this is exculpatory, but it is explanatory. He was to some extent a bureaucrat who felt that the best interests of the Church were better represented in the protection of the clergy rather than the protection of the laity. That's what bureaucrats do: protect the bureaucracy.....We are all of us a mixed bag. He clearly did some things wrong, but he lived his life with courage and faith. His personal life was exemplary.... Gandhi had a thing for enemas. MLK plagiarized his goddamed theology thesis. These men have been granted secular sainthood. I'd give John Paul a pass on this. At any rate, only God can make a saint.
just someone trying to say EVERYONE opposed the Mass-Murdering Atheists
I said nothing of the sort. I said it -- "it" being "opposing mass-murdering totalitarian regimes" -- is something everyone is supposed to do.
You've attempted to rebut this by pointing out that quite a moral idiots failed to do so. That's pretty much the point; opposing Communism qualifies John Paul II for nothing more than a "not a moral idiot on this topic" merit badge. It doesn't buy him an indulgence for his handling of the child rape scandals.
Let me put it this way -- how many child rapists am I allowed to help cover for if I denounce Communism first?
Is there a required ratio of denunciations:rapists, below which I no longer qualify as a candidate for sainthood? I just want to be sure I understand the rules here.
Unlikely you'll ever understand it, Revski. Where's your evidence that JP II intentionally covered up abuse, anyway? You don't have it--just the usual sex scandal hype ala the New Yawk times (the NYT covering up for its support of BushCo and the iraq war--).
I think there is a difference between being wrong and being evil. Perhaps he thought that pedophilia was a curable illness or that the children did not suffer irreperable harm. You can say that such beliefs were self serving but you cannot claim that such beliefs were evil.....Catholic priests and nuns always seemed to me to be wilfully ignorant of human sexuality. Perhaps that is why they chose their vocations. At any rate, I don't think John Paul had any greater understanding of pedophilia than we have of foot fetishism......Is foot fetishism innate or instilled? Can foot fetishism be cured? If you owned a shoe store, would you fire your most successful salesman if you discovered that he was a foot fetishist? What if he promised not to do it again?.....We have a different understanding of pedophila now than we did thirty or forty years ago. I think John Paul was patently wrong, but that does not equate with evil.
I'm in Rome still (semester abroad has wrapped up, students are gone, and I'm finally relaxed), and I'm going.
I'm sure I won't be able to get any closer than that - but I'll be able to see St Peter's and watch the doings on the GODzillatron!
Funny, the last one of these ginormous events I went to was the beatification of Padre Pio in 2002 (again, accident of non-pilgrimage trip timing). JPII drove by in the Popemobile 3 times -- I got a triple blessing!
One mild correction - I can't let Tyrone's guess pass. We did 'em up not to be sure they weren't buried alive, but (1) to see if they are incorruptible!! and (2) to confirm identity of the relics.
Wow--so much ignorance about the Catholic Church and what she teaches that it's appalling. I don't even know where to start.
William, try reading the Theology of the Body. The Church gets it. It's the rest of the world that doesn't.
Also, the Church wrongly took the advice of psychiatrists in many instances.
We got a bad batch of priests and bishops. Not the first time it's happened either, in 2000 years. Good men were turned away from the priesthood and dissent was encouraged. I believe Michael Rose about the Lavender Mafia. I have met very few priests who are solid in the faith. That appears in some ways to be changing, and new traditional orders of nuns are forming and finding their facilities inadequate for the number of young women seeking their vocation. Meanwhile, the older orders that went off the deep end into dissent are dying off in with the zeitgeist. Good riddance.
Since when did dissenting bishops and priests ever listen to JP2? These creepy priests and bishops were going to do what they were going to do, a la Rembert.
If you are a conservative, and you feel the media is selective in its reporting, could there possibly be a chance that the media might be a bit slanted toward the Church and not giving you the full story? Just wondering....
Julius, God bless that priest. Thank God he had the guts to teach the truth about abortion. The rest of what he said was opinion and not Church teaching. Get over it.
And I think you are lying when you say you were told not to attend mass because of "twitching". That's ridiculous. The Church bends over backwards to accommodate people. I'm sorry but I smell a rat.
William, the problem wasn't a misunderstanding of pedophilia. The problem was focusing on protecting the Church instead of protecting the children.
I think Wm. Oddie called it right, writing in the Catholic Herald this week: "It will take 100 years to recover from the 1960s and 70s: but John Paul set us back on course." And I agree with TraditionalGuy's conclusion (if not his comment): "So what Karol was not perfect in his entire life . He did his job well and he will be judged for eternal rewards by his Lord." He was a good and holy man who did the Church incalculable service by staving off schism and limiting the damage done by the modernist revolutionaries who hijacked the Council. In this endeavor, he was aided by Card. Ratzinger, who has of course now succeeded him on the Throne of Peter, and who will in due course succeed him in beatification.
I also agree with those who say that he should have done more about the abuse scandal. But on the other hand, the historical record seems clear that the full scale of the problem was not apparent until the last years of his reign, and as more came to light, more was done. The revisionist temptation to fault actors for failing to act consistent with what we know now (but which they did not know then) must be resisted.
And then we come, sadly, to this:
master cylinder said...
"Sadly, like all women who are Catholic, nuns are marginalized to the sidelines."
Nonsense. The only way to conclude this is by making accepting the clericalist theory (ironically, in a feat of doublethink, clericalism is condemned by people who advance your talking points) that clerics are not only set apart but set above. Only by making that assumption, and thus devaluing the laity, can you say that women are marginalized.
"It's like an ethnicity, Ill always be Catholic"
No, it isn't, and no you won't. You are apparently what's known as a "lapsed Catholic," which is someone who used to be and hasn't settled anywhere else sufficiently distinctive. While I know the invitation won't be accepted, I invite you and Julius (and all the others) to come home. Listen, you say that you left because of the abuse scandal, and I don't believe you (you were looking for an excuse), but let's suppose that really was the reason. Suppose you are on a sinking ship. Why in the world would you refuse to board the lifeboat simply because one or two of the officers were bad people? You would rather drown than share a lifeboat with a bad man? That is a pride sin and the result is, well, death. This world is a ship destined to sink; happily, in the barque of Peter, we are offered a lifeboat. Are some of the crew corrupt? Yes. We should expect at least one in twelve; happily it's fewer than one in one hundred. Please: Swallow your pride and get on the lifeboat, because we're diminished without you and because you don't want to drown.
I was raised as a Catholic. I have good memories of the clergy I encountered growing up. They were good people. I am no longer a believer, but this is due more to the times we live in than to any malfeasance of the Church. Exclusive of sex, most of what they taught me was useful and worthwhile. My bias is towards the Church. I don't think they handled the scandals well, but I would like to think that their errors were a result of faulty understanding rather than faulty character. But who really knows? There's that Belgian Bishop who molested his nephews and considered it no big deal. That's very troubling.... At any rate, I am certain that John Paul was a good man. Denial is not just a river in Egypt and is not just applicable to one's own faults, but also to the flaws of those we love. His first duty was towards the children and not towards his clergy, but he cut on the bias. That's not what saints do, but, by and large, that's what people do......Those on the left who condemn the Church should look to their own dirty linen. Daniel Ortega is a child molestor. He was recently elected President of Nicaragua. The left keeps a tactful silence about their past idolization of this dirtbag and no one expresses outrage at his continued pubic life. And, of course, there is the Polanski case. The left cuts on their bias also.
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