"They are drawn to what they describe as a more demanding, even difficult, practice of Christianity. Echoing some of the rhetoric of the so-called manosphere, new waves of young converts say Orthodoxy offers them hard truths and affirms their masculinity.... Many of the young Americans new to the pews have been introduced to Orthodoxy by hard-edge influencers on YouTube and other social media platforms.... Orthodoxy 'appeals to the masculine soul,' said Josh Elkins, a student at North Carolina State University who was chatting with other young men.'The Orthodox Church is the only church that really coaches men hard, and says, "This is what you need to do,"' said Mr. Elkins, 20.... Some converts report approvingly that Orthodoxy has a more masculine feel than other traditions. Priests, who must be male and can marry, often have large beards and big families. Orthodoxy asks practitioners to make sacrifices like fasting, rather than offering them emotional contemporary music and therapeutic sermons, which critics describe as the typical evangelical megachurch experience...."
From "Orthodox Church Pews Are Overflowing With Converts/'In the whole history of the Orthodox Church in America, this has never been seen,' a priest said about the surge of young men drawn to the demanding practice of Christianity'" (NYT)(gift link, because there's much more to the article, many photographs, and a torrent of negativity in the comments section).
Typical comments over there: "Wearing gilded robes and kissing gilded books is masculine? Having an imaginary friend that you follow rules for is masculine? These guys are desperate for meaning and will bend over backwards and forwards for it. Anything but actual self reflection and growth." And: "What a sad spectacle. Real Orthodoxy is rooted in actual cultures, like Serbia or Georgia or Armenia, and for good or bad you can find an authentic culture there. What this article describes is a ridiculous Youtube phenomenon."
Mga Post
84 (na) komento:
Have fun feminists.
You caused this.
The pendulum swings.
The trappings and religions of secular and theistic faith.
Once again, dems are the experts who know nothing.
Of course nationalism is a major challenge to the universality of the Church and of religion in general, and this has been the case since the early 19th century at least. The ways in which the Church, and Catholicism in particular, views itself, and views its position vis-a-vis the state, has been changing. For religion is no longer the opium of the people, and no longer the handmaiden of increasingly secular state entities. Nowadays opium applies more to capitalism, or netflix. And, perhaps as a result, the Church has become much more true to itself, and its calling to stand by the poor and the oppressed (Luke 4:18). This is above all a return to the Church's traditions.
Once again, a micro phenomenon is presented as the Next Big Thing.
Torrent of Negativity would be a good name for a band. Delightful!
"Anything but actual self reflection and growth."
Oh sure, I see LOTS of young lefties undertaking "actual self reflection and growth." What clearer sign than that their profile pictures so often reveal their latest moral fad?
Looking into a religion with a 2,000-year history of trial, error, success, failure, in applied human psychology - this seems to me FAR superior to "self reflection" that allows you to conclude that doing what thou wilt is self-evidently "moral" because otherwise you wouldn't want to do it.
As to the "cultural appropriation" argument - whatever. Hope that person doesn't eat tacos unless s/he is actually of Mexican descent - otherwise it's just a foodie phenomenon. And don't even get me started on omekase.
"The pendulum swings."
Not to mention the censer.
“ young Americans new to the pews”
What orthodox churches have pews? I’ve been in hundreds of eastern Orthodox churches and I’ve never seen pews in any of them. Some have a few chairs but no pews.
Ampersand said..."Once again, a micro phenomenon is presented as the Next Big Thing."
A lot of that going around, nowadays.
Nowadays opium applies more to capitalism, or netflix.
I'll give you Netflix. But religion was never the opiate of the masses, nor is capitalism. Those platitudes are manufactured to suit a purpose that crushes the human spirit while pretending to elevate it. Are the socialist kids happier and more fulfilled because they're eaten up with envy of those doing better than they are financially? Or even since they feel superior (if a little guilty about it) to those who are doing less will? It's Marxism that is the opiate. Clearly.
A "torrent of negativity" aptly describes the commenters on the NYT.
I did just check, and there are several recent comments defending young men and this choice of faith.
Also, more "men in the ladies room" mentions in the article!
It’s a rejection of the institutions that woke usurped, and then expected that the respect was completely transferable to them. It’s the same with literature, they imposed standards of conduct on characters, male and female, that don’t mesh with human nature, and now literary fiction is dying, and women are reading romantasy, where men and women can be men and women because, wink wink, it’s just fantasy.
In the Soviet Union, a small number of true believers enforced their norms, and eventually they wore out their welcome, and the Russian Orthodox Church was revived by people who had seen enough.
I welcome Pope Leo's words that offer a loving alternative to the hate, pride and anger that seem to fuel nationalism. Others do the same but do not have his stature and gravitas. Perfection does not exist in human relations, but we can do better for ourselves and our world.
Boomers in their greed and sloth raised a generation of children with no real guidance or understanding of how to build a moral foundation.
Hedonism reached its peak in 2024.
What really needs to be arranged is a cultural exchange. We need to trade our current crop of college educated women for women in places like Africa and Afghanistan and Southeast Asia.
They can teach the toxically masculine men in those countries how to behave and the men here can be husbands to women who would like to have families and live in the wealthiest country on earth.
"Wearing gilded robes and kissing gilded books is masculine? Having an imaginary friend that you follow rules for is masculine?"
There's nothing quite like the self-righteousness of an anonymous mediocrity in a comment section thinking he's scoring rhetorical points by displaying ignorance.
Hate from women, soi boys, and atheists. The "tolerant Left"
"Many of the young Americans new to the pews ..."
The only time I went to an Orthodox service, there were no pews. Having to stand all that time was a deal-breaker.
Younger Priest: Is there one aspect of the faith you find particularly attractive?
George Costanza: I think, the hats.
I can understand the appeal, but who wants to be another Rod Dreher?
Butkis51's comment at 10.44 AM immediately followed by Kakistocracy's comment.
Perfect.
Religion refers to a behavioral protocol or model. Capitalism to a democratic economic system to assess pricing of products and services based on accessibility, availability, and demand, and retained earnings from presumably productive enterprises. The invisible hand or the glaring fist and boot? Choices.
These converts seek to cultivate the Kavorka.
Every NYT article is an opportunity for the commenters there to describe how much they hate their fellow Americans.
Real men are into Norse Paganism. The Christian Holy Land is a barren desert shit hole cursed by climate change and beside by constant treachery and Civil War. Achilles is absolutely right. All of the boys who were gelded in childhood by a feminized upbringing are naturally drawn to a misogynistic religious cult. It makes them feel safe to keep their women inside burlap sacks just like their Hasidic and Islamic Brotherhood.
Sneering never went out of style. But maybe something is happening, and they don't know what it is.
Well just hate um right back
Being superior isn't hate, it's a responsibility. Hate is a manifestation of weakness, ignorance and stupidity dominating the psyche. This is why the so-called Holy Land is the most hateful place on Earth.
Wherever the Word lies there is value of course there is the obligatory sneering at Russian orthodoxism how has that worked out
#HateLovesAbortion
I understand that US Orthodox services are in English, so worship makes more sense to me than going to Tridentine Mass. But will all these young men find women?
“Orthodoxy 'appeals to the masculine soul,' said Josh Elkins, a student at North Carolina State University who was chatting with other young men.'The Orthodox Church is the only church that really coaches men hard, and says, "This is what you need to do,"' said Mr. Elkins, 20....”
Heh. Wait till they discover Islam.
It is a reaction to our over-secularized and over-Islamized society. So many young men are tired of being used as a punching bag for everyone else’s issues and whimpering. They seek what the ‘enlightened’ ministers, pastors, priests of today are not offering in their quest to be woke and sell equity. They see the regimented orthodoxies of Islam attract converts, but are not into beheading or threatening others.
And so they are finding a home in a church that offers what they are seeking.
They just built a new Greek Orthodox church in my part of town. Glorious white with gold domes, it is very attractive, maybe the most church looking church in the area.
How many women roughnecks did you work with? Was that because women were barred from work they wanted to do, or are women somehow different?
I was a Protestant minister for 26 years. During the last several years serving an increasingly liberal church I began attending Great Vespers (Saturday evening prayer) at the Orthodox church in our city. For a while I was (besides the priest and the choir) the most regular attender. I loved my time with the Orthodox.The Orthodox church was an island of sanity who strengthened and sustained me while I struggle to continue working for an increasingly wackadoodle church. When I retired early from pastoral ministry in 2022 I hoped to become Orthodox. My wife and I became Catholic. Did not expect that.
My point is that I understand very well the appeal of Orthodox Christianity to men.
The dudes on Mount Athos are bad asses.
That was a tremendously lazy and simplistic take on a complex phenomenon. The next time that author attempts to cover Orthodoxy in America, I hope she bothers to speak to a wider group of people and learn more about the subject - without indulging in silly (and false) generalizations as to how American Orthodoxy views the State of Israel.
Its the Times what did you expect
They dont want any contest with worship of the State and skydragon (agw)
imTay said...
How many women roughnecks did you work with? Was that because women were barred from work they wanted to do, or are women somehow different?
Thanks for asking this ridiculous question.
In the grand scheme of things not many men are roughnecks not many men work in heavy construction, basic industry or even serve in the military. Yet, many many men who have never worked in a job where death and or dismemberment is a daily possibility like to take credit for the jobs that other men do where they would never dare set foot in.
It's those types of whiny wimpy complaining Jack offs join an Orthodox Church and the men's group so they can all sit around and tell each other how much the women in their lives hen peck them.
Orthodoxy asks practitioners to make sacrifices like fasting
Sacrifice is a critical part of Christianity. Jesus sacrificed himself for us. Sacrificing for others is the purest kind of life.
Fasting is tough. It's physically demanding. I met a senior citizen in my church one time, cute little old lady, and we were talking about fasting. And I asked her how long she had done it. And she said, "A week." And I said, "A WEEK?!
And she was embarrassed and said it was a long time ago and she might not remember it right. I tap out at 72 hours. The hunger gets to you, man.
Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights. You do it to make your prayers to God stronger.
I'm half-convinced this woman was an angel and she was doing her fast back in the middle ages.
Anyway, fasting is tough. I was kind of impressed with my 72 hours until I met this woman who didn't eat for a week. I don't know how masculine it is, but woman might be better at it than I am.
Fasting, standing for long periods of time through a mass, repeating prayers many times are versions of the "spiritual athleticism" that came from Ireland to England in the seventh century and did so much to convert the North. Cuthbert, the most beloved of the Northern English saints, would stand waist-deep in the North Sea while he recited the Psalter from memory, and when the hustled and bustle of the Holy Island of Lindisfarne got to be too much for him, he would retreat to Outer Farne to fast and pray.
Although I cannot speak from my own experience, I've been told by people I trust that spiritual athleticism even in its mundane forms, enables you to achieve a state of peace that is otherwise not consistently attainable. I have no reason to doubt this claim.
It's amusing, in a kind of sad and pathetic way, that the exact same people who will mock these kinds of exercises by Christians will turn around and extol the value of Eastern techniques for achieving similar states--yoga, meditation, etc.
Perhaps the heat map is real.
"many many men who have never worked in a job where death and or dismemberment is a daily possibility like to take credit for the jobs that other men do where they would never dare set foot in."
That's one way of looking at it. Another is that many men observe things concerning how the world works and report what they see. Which, for some reason, upsets some people.
Anything religious is a freakshow to the NYTimes. Stay in your lane NYT. Otherwise, the world might tip over and sink under the Hudson River.
To be able to reach back 2,000 years and touch the origins is a powerful feeling. Chekhov once wrote a great little story about that.
https://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/ac/student.html
A slightly ambiguous ending?
The way the modern world works, Ron, is that most men can live and work in a cushy job just like just like women and they are the ones that are complaining about how life is much more tough for real men, LOL. It's another type of male cheerleader
"Wearing gilded robes and kissing gilded books is masculine? Having an imaginary friend that you follow rules for is masculine?"
As opposed to a atheism or leftism? Yes. But expecting consistency out of them is absurd. Sam Harris thinks he has relationship with millions across the globe due to imaginary "Blood ties" and a belief in a God he thinks is "imaginary".
I grew up attending both Catholic Mass and Orthodox Mass every Sunday. Both religions will save you. Catholic if you prefer the rational, Orthodox if you prefer the mystical.
How long before this becomes Russia, Russia, Russia?
St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral in Chicago has pews. They bought it from the Catholics.
"When I retired early from pastoral ministry in 2022 I hoped to become Orthodox. My wife and I became Catholic. Did not expect that."
LOL! How does that work, pray tell? ...Whoops, I got Catholiced?... You got Catholic in my Orthodoxy! You got Orthodoxy in my Catholic!... Didn't notice the difference until after the Confirmation? Wait, I'm Catholic now? But I thought this was an Orthodox church!... The difference in the crosses should have been the first hint.
imTay said...
“How many women roughnecks did you work with? Was that because women were barred from work they wanted to do, or are women somehow different?”
“In the grand scheme of things not many men are roughnecks not many men work in heavy construction, basic industry or even serve in the military. Yet, many many men who have never worked in a job where death and or dismemberment is a daily possibility like to take credit for the jobs that other men do where they would never dare set foot in.”
Right? I don’t seem Timmy doing “roughneck” type work. Or being in the military. I get incel vibes from him.
The Eastern Orthodox denominations use scripture as their wat to counsel members. Sounds simple, but is the key tradition that the church of the Western Roman Empire (we call Roman Catholic) conveniently forgot about.
They include the Coptics of Egypt, the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox.
It must have something going for it. Even George Costanza converted,
ffhttps://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fstf9b4ssfwc51.jpg
Is that like festivus (which apparently is a real thing)
I have been in one Orthodox in Greece. To be honest, though I could follow what was going on because it was very similar to a Catholic mass, I didn't understand a word. It was all Greek to me...
True story. Was on shore patrol duty and the ushers/greeters motioned us in as we passed by. We stood together and it wasn't until we were there for a bit realized the congregation was separated by sex. 2 females in our group, 4 males, and we on the male side. Seems the service runs all day, or most of, and people come and go through the parts that make a complete mass, then leave. Strange.
Here in the USA, I've been to Latin masses in 3 states. In all of them I've been to there are numerous families with 3 or more children. If they don't have at least 3, they haven't been married long enough to get there.
The future belongs to those who show up. Here in the USA Mennonites/Amish, Latter Day Saints, Latin Mass Catholics, and some, but not all, Bible thumper churches. Not mainstream Protestant denominations which were dominant at the founding. And islamists IF we keep importing them.
Saints Constantine and Helen Greek Orthodox Cathedral in NW Indiana was constructed around the late 1970s/early 1980s and has pews.
The article peeked my interest in the reason the Orthodox Christians oppose the State of Israel.
Some of their antipathy is due to politics and being mostly Arabs in the region and being used to Islamic persecution as the norm, they resented the influx of Jews who upset the status quo.
From a theological pov I questioned why they rejected Jesus's teaching to follow the Torah, which includes the eternal Covenant between God and the People of Israel and the Land of Israel. I'm not a Christian however I understand that Paul created Christianity, not Jesus. He had other ideas. According to the Orthodox Christians "the Church" has replaced the Jews in that Covenant, and that's why they have decided that Jews aren't a legitimate indigenous people with a spiritual connection to the land. That's the reason they oppose the State of Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people.
It's kind of ironic to me that the Orthodox Christians don't seem to notice or mind that Muslims believe the last and final covenant is now with Muslims. The Christians have been replaced and that's why they have been persecuted by Muslims. You see what I'm saying? According to the OC the Jews are expected to accept they have been replaced but of course the OC don't accept that they also have been replaced.
The Jews and Israel don't get enough credit for not having a need to tell people practicing other religions that they are invalid and don't have a right to exist. Unfortunately that tolerance doesn't work both ways.
My husband and I entered the Orthodox Church 15 years ago this month. We were Protestant before; I was raised Baptist and he was baptized Presbyterian and then left alone by his parents, who weren't really believers. It's a beautiful and rigorous faith, and I believe it is utterly true. Yes, some of us have pews, but we don't get to sit in them much during services. Here in Houston we have lots of Orthodox (relatively speaking); the largest Greek church in the country is here, and we have their PreK-8 school as well at the St. Constantine School mentioned in the article.
In my opinion, no one should become Orthodox because of politics. After all, we're lousy at politics - we have the Russians, the Serbs, and don't get me started about the paradoxical hatred of Israel. You should look at Orthodoxy for the faith itself, always keeping in mind that the church is a hospital for sinners (of whom I am chief, as the pre-communion prayer goes).
For anyone interested in Orthodoxy, come visit a church! You'll learn more than you ever will on the internet. Kh. Frederica Mathewes-Green wrote a great guide on what to expect many years ago; find it here: https://pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/First_visit_orthodox_church_Mathewes-Green.htm Most churches really will welcome you, especially if you stay for coffee afterwards and ask some questions. Antiochian churches will have the most English during services (and Russian churches likely the least). In very large cities the churches can still be a bit segregated by ethnicity, but in smaller cities everyone is mixed together at the one church in town. Father Andrew Damick (quoted in the article) has some of the best books on Orthodoxy I've ever read, and he has podcasts as well. He's a wonderful resource outside actually visiting a church.
Blessings to all!
The comments over at the NYT were incredibly depressing... until I realized that the demons are very VERY pissed off by all this. Young men finding salvation in the Orthodox Church?! The horror!
Likewise, banshee feminists are wailing about the interest in this Church that is literally organized into Patriarchates and headed by Patriarchs. We're the Patriarchy, baby, and proud of it!
"Likewise, banshee feminists are wailing about the interest in this Church that is literally organized into Patriarchates and headed by Patriarchs."
They've got their cats. Why should they care?
Howard said...
Real men are into Norse Paganism. The Christian Holy Land is a barren desert shit hole cursed by climate change and beside by constant treachery and Civil War. Achilles is absolutely right. All of the boys who were gelded in childhood by a feminized upbringing are naturally drawn to a misogynistic religious cult. It makes them feel safe to keep their women inside burlap sacks just like their Hasidic and Islamic Brotherhood.
Men and women each have a set of non-reciprocal duties to society that only they can do.
I work with female engineers who are quite talented and productive.
This is not the norm. There aren't that many. Most jobs created for women in this country are bullshit jobs that do nothing.
When Musk took over X he fired 75% of the employees there and service improved. You could do that at most large companies and it would more likely be 90% in government and university/education jobs and service and productivity would improve.
Most of the people fired would be women.
You can act like a simp if you want. But the truth is that the best thing the vast majority of women can do for society is to marry a man, have his children, and raise the children well.
Howard said...
Being superior isn't hate, it's a responsibility. Hate is a manifestation of weakness, ignorance and stupidity dominating the psyche. This is why the so-called Holy Land is the most hateful place on Earth.
That is not bad.
Anything but actual self reflection and growth.
Interesting thing to find in a comment section of the NYTs.
We all know it is everyone else that needs to do self reflection and growth so they can be as smart and right as me.
Oh, boy, where to start with this one?
What a sad spectacle. Real Orthodoxy is rooted in actual cultures, like Serbia or Georgia or Armenia,
Or, the actual culture of the United States, as is the Orthodox Church in America. There's big reason why the national Orthodox churches hold on so tenaciously to their parishes in the USA --- they're cash cows for the church in the mother country!
As for anyone who's interested in Orthodoxy, you can get all the Eastern/Middle Eastern discipline and ritual you want and still be in communion with Rome, just join one of the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. Same rites, married clergy, the whole shebang. Just not schismatic.
As for me, I love Orthodoxy. It's the Orthodox I can't stand. I'll stick with the Romans, as infuriating as the bureaucracy can be!
The great thing about the Orthodox is you get a Church that can trace itself back to St. Peter, and you don't have to care about the Pope. And his constant nutty sayings about current politics.
@RCOCEAN,
And his constant nutty sayings about current politics.
No, you just have to worry about what crazy shit the Patriarch of whatever country you're following says, as for example all the public dick-sucking of Patriarch Kirill for the dictatorship of Vladimir Putin.
Look, if you like Orthodoxy, you like Orthodoxy. But, the history of the Orthodox Churches vis-a-vis their host governments is simply appalling. Remember, the Roman Catholic Church, every now and then, because of its transnational character and its independent structures like the religious orders, stood against local government tyranny. There is simply no structure, aside from the brave individual, to do so within Orthodoxy.
"...you can get all the Eastern/Middle Eastern discipline and ritual you want and still be in communion with Rome, just join one of the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. Same rites, married clergy, the whole shebang. Just not schismatic."
Just because these people have been LARPing for hundreds of years, doesn't mean it's not still LARPing. They're literally pretending to be in communion with people who recite the Filioque every Sunday. It's fraudulent. I'd rather people hung up gay pride flags and became Episcopalian than entertain that mockery.
"Remember, the Roman Catholic Church, every now and then, because of its transnational character and its independent structures like the religious orders, stood against local government tyranny. There is simply no structure, aside from the brave individual, to do so within Orthodoxy."
Except the whole reason the Great Schism occurred was that the Franks bullied the Popes into accepting the Filioque until finally one caved. Meanwhile, the Orthodox had to survive under Muslim rule, so don't give me that crap about church acquiesce to government. Besides which, the concept of separation of Church and State just didn't exist for most of Christian history. That's the meaning behind the double-headed eagle you see in Orthodox countries.
If you want to find Christ, by the way, I would suggest that you find a Bible study somewhere and join it. Just a group of people, reading a small bit of the Gospels, trying to figure out what Jesus meant when he said that wild thing.
Organized religion is fine. I like church, the people in church are nice. But Bible study is where the action is. You want to know Jesus, join a Bible study (a.k.a. book club) and read his words, and discuss.
Organized religion says things like, "Priests must be celibate." And I'm like, "Where did you get that?"
Peter had a mother-in-law!
The argument, Howard, isn't that there are so few in that profession. The argument is that those men in that profession are necessary to the wider workings of our society. The work isn't intellectually difficult, but it is brutally physical work. The same thing goes for plumbers, electricians , pipefitters etc. Not many women do it because not many women are physically capable. You can look down on them until you need them.
"If you want to find Christ, by the way, I would suggest that you find a Bible study somewhere and join it. Just a group of people, reading a small bit of the Gospels, trying to figure out what Jesus meant when he said that wild thing."
Except 500 years of Protestants trying to interpret the Bible for themselves have led us to this moment in time. Every heresy of Christianity came about because some schmuck read the Bible for himself and pridefully thought he'd discovered something fresh in there. You don't find Christ that way. You find Him by uniting yourself to His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where the meaning of Scripture has been taught by Church Fathers and great Saints for two thousand years. That is why young men are joining the Orthodox Church. They are sick of the relativism of personal interpretation of Scripture.
One point: Most Orthodox churches don't have pews. We stand.
Blair, Bible study is not by yourself, it's with a group of people. You can disparage people studying Christ if you want to. That's not what Jesus said about it. "For when two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
You're obviously a fan of worldly authorities and organizational structures. I'm reminded that we are all sinners and we will get it wrong. And a lot of innocent people were killed by people claiming to follow Christ. All of that blood shed came from institutional authority, not by anything Jesus himself said.
Michael Fitzgerald wrote: "LOL! How does that work?"
Great question. Quick response: I do know the differences between Orthodox and Catholic. My wife supported me becoming Orthodox but was not interested. She asked "what about St Alysius Catholic Church?" I thought "Catholic? seriously? okay". We both had friends there. The next Sunday we attended Mass and loved it. The priest of the Orthodox church had left and became the formation director at St Aloysius. He told me "ninety eight percent of Orthodoxy is at home in the Catholic Church".
I was baptized and confirmed Catholic. Became Baptist when I was in college. Never expected that decades later I would return.
Thoughtful, Kak.
Inga, Inga, Inga, I'm not just a Renaissance Poetry teacher: I'm a roughneck. I can install plumbing, fix wells, do roofing, pour and fix foundations, do high work, pull porches, frame, install windows and doors, and pretty much everything else but electric.
You are a prejudiced, small-minded, fool. English comma
intended.
"Real culture" are apparently rooted in areas adjacent to Muslim boundaries of expansion. I, for one, look forward to further expansion of the idea that fighting against imperialistic Islamic zealotry leads to real culture.
"You're obviously a fan of worldly authorities and organizational structures."
I'm a fan of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is the opposite of a worldly authority. It is not of this world at all. And if I have to pick between where the Holy Spirit dwells and teaches us on Scripture, I'll pick that over you and your happy clappy buddies hanging out in the living room any time thanks.
"...a lot of innocent people were killed by people claiming to follow Christ."
Not usually by Orthodox Christians though. Usually the other way around.
And a lot of innocent people were killed by people who declared they were following Islam. Most of those deaths have occurred over time and continue to the present. Most deaths by "Christians" happened a long, long time ago. Crusades, anyone?
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