১ জানুয়ারী, ২০২৫

"The question swirling around all the new believers was: Were they true believers? Or was their conversion mostly or entirely utilitarian..."

"... driven by a desire to push back against the forces of technology and secularism and wokeness and an increasingly militant Islam? Did they actually believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he had died for our sins and was resurrected? Or did they think that was a nice story that we should tell ourselves because it encouraged people to treat each other better—because it was a kind of cultural bulwark? And did it really matter in the end? Andrew Sullivan, the writer and podcaster, suggested this might not be easy to answer. 'The feeling'—of believing—'will vary,' Sullivan, a Catholic, told me. 'Sometimes, there’s no feeling. Sometimes, you’re overwhelmed. The point really is to escape feeling as such—our emotions are not what prove anything. The genius of ritual is that it allows us not to articulate our feelings... It allows us to express our faith through an act.'"

From "How Intellectuals Found God/Almost 150 years after Nietzsche said ‘God is dead,’ some of our most important thinkers are getting religion. Peter Savodnik meets the new theists" (Free Press).

৪৭টি মন্তব্য:

Ice Nine বলেছেন...

>'The feeling'—of believing—'will vary,' Sullivan, a Catholic, told me. 'Sometimes, there’s no feeling. Sometimes, you’re overwhelmed. The point really is to escape feeling as such<

The Opiate of the Masses...

Earnest Prole বলেছেন...

I hear the ancient footsteps
Like the motion of the sea
Sometimes I turn, there's someone there
Other times it's only me
I am hanging in the balance
Of the reality of man
Like every sparrow falling
Like every grain of sand

rhhardin বলেছেন...

Not believing is the important part of believing, preventing it from becoming a system outside of you.

Thylias Moss "The Warmth of Hot Chocolate" recommended in The American Religion by Harold Bloom

I don't believe in [God]. He's just a casual acquaintance,
a comfortable associate with whom I can be myself.
To believe in Him would place Him in the center of the universe,
when He's far more secure in the fringes,
so He doesn't have to look over His shoulder to nab the backstabbers who want promotions,
but are tired of waiting for Him to die and set in motion the natural evolution.
God doesn't want to evolve.
Has been against evolution from its creation.
He doesn't figure many possibilities are open to Him.
I think He's wise to bide His time, even though He pales in the moonlight to just a glow...
just the warmth of hot chocolate spreading through the body like a subcutaneous halo.
But to trust in Him implicitly would be a mistake,
for then He would not have to maintain His worthiness to be God.
Even the thinnest flyweight modicum of doubt gives God the necessity
to prove He's worthy of the implicit trust I can never give
because I protect Him from corruption,
from the complacency that rises within Him sometimes,
a shadowy ever-descending brother.

Robert Cook বলেছেন...

There is no supernatural/metaphysical/spiritual realm other than that we create in our imagination.

Ann Althouse বলেছেন...

"There is no supernatural/metaphysical/spiritual realm other than that we create in our imagination."

What do you say to all those smart people who think it's likely that we're living in a simulation?

Dave Begley বলেছেন...

I watched this podcast with Douglas Murray, Tom Holland and Steve Meyer this AM and found it super interesting. Loved it!

https://youtu.be/o2u54a1FL28?si=cLUHQ-FbJrc3yx-_

Dave Begley বলেছেন...

BTW, the Jesuits reconciled faith and reason about 500 years ago.

Skeptical Voter বলেছেন...

I envy those who have faith, I don't. That said, I try to live my life in the way that practicing believers do. It's utiltarian. Is there a God and a Heavenly Reward.? I dunno--but coppering my bets, I want to lead a life that would justify receiving such. You won't find out until you die.

Ice Nine বলেছেন...

That it had to even be attempted speaks volumes. Where there's a will there's a way, I suppose.

baghdadbob বলেছেন...

Atheism makes no sense. One cannot know if there is no God. It is a belief, not a verifiable fact, as are all religions. Agnosticism is the only intellectually honest worldview regarding God. Embrace the courage to say "I just don't know."

mccullough বলেছেন...

A new religion would be better than the old ones.

Jamie বলেছেন...

Without reading any other comments, may I offer Mark 9:24?

Jaq বলেছেন...

Cookie should have a look at the difficulties involved in proving a negative.
What he presents is an intuition, not a ratiocination like he thinks. Given what we know, it's probably a strong inference, but that's "given what we know." An inference will never be a deduction and there is a lot of room in the Universe for the unknowable.

Jaq বলেছেন...

There is also the issue of accepting the human mind as it evolved, the fictional "Vulcans" are not human. I know Althouse asked Grok what made humans human, and it mentioned the ability to "navigate ambiguity," well, we navigate ambiguity through our prejudices, our worldview, our faith, like Robert's faith that God doesn't exist, or other posters here's faith that He does. Nobody is smart enough to navigate the world from first principles and rigorously proven precepts only.

Enigma বলেছেন...

People have shown again and again that they fill any intellectual vacuum with religion. Many need/demand universal answers and rights-vs.-wrongs.

Marxism is a modified form of Christianity, where the afterlife is replaced by an egalitarian awakening here-and-now, but many accept that this was utopian wishful thinking. Wokeness also made the Marxist religious undertones quite obvious.

With nowhere else to go but a drive for completeness, the left will return to the old central control model: Catholicism, updated. There will again be one true faith, to be enforced by the state. God, Green, and Genocide. Wait a generation or two.

In God We Trust.

Blair বলেছেন...

Fake it til you make it. In the Orthodox Church, we say Christian faith isn't something you think, it's something you *do*. Participation IS faith, even if it's mustard seed sized.

The atheist explanation for the universe is deeply unsatisfactory and hopeless. The person and life of Jesus Christ, on the other hand, represents the best hope for the universe of justice, mercy, and love, which the universe needs and lacks. If Christ did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him, for the sake of our own hopes. And to aspire to unite oneself to even an imaginary Christ still represents the salvation of the human race by any measure. The effect of an imaginary Christ is the same as a real one.

Original Mike বলেছেন...

Somewhat on topic, there is a growing hypothesis in cosmology that Dark Energy doesn't exist.

wild chicken বলেছেন...

Without reading any other comments, may I offer Mark 9:24?

1/1/25, 11:56 AM

Mark was the original Gospel. The rest is fan fiction


Ampersand বলেছেন...

Putting to one side the theism debate, the history of Christianity, despite the occasional bright spot. is a heartbreaking epic of egoism, cruelty, error, hypocrisy, deception and confusion. A benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent deity would be playing a counterintuitive game if It was using Christianity as Its megaphone.

rhhardin বলেছেন...

Matter has no inwards (Coleridge), or, more modernly, why is it like anything to be me? The simulation can't produce it. All you get is moving parts.

tcrosse বলেছেন...

The Church is a human institution, and so is flawed by definition. It should be distinguished from the spirituality which it fronts for.

RCOCEAN II বলেছেন...

Yeah, I'm sure Andrew Sullivan believes. I mean other than believing in Israel, Gay bareback riding, and smoking MJ. But exactly what he believes is open to question. It certainly isn't Christianity.

Ice Nine বলেছেন...

What a load. It helps you though, I suppose, in your ill-founded claim, to make up definitions.

Atheism is not knowing that there is no god, nor is it claiming to know that there is no god. Atheists merely believe that there is no god. Your dictionary can help here.

And, oh yeah, it makes at least as much sense as does theists believing there is a god.

Robert Cook বলেছেন...

"What do you say to all those smart people who think it's likely that we're living in a simulation?"

I hear that, but I don't know why they think that or could prove it, or, if true, how it would change our experience of living (or "living"). In short, it just seems facile and effectively meaningless.

Robert Cook বলেছেন...

"BTW, the Jesuits reconciled faith and reason about 500 years ago."

Just words. Everything and anything can be reconciled using language.

Robert Cook বলেছেন...

"Atheism makes no sense. One cannot know if there is no God."

Your latter statement makes no sense. There is no external proof or evidence to suggest a god exists or may exist. Why would anyone think "God" was anything more than our imaginations projected on the unknown natural world (and universe) in which we exist? One certainly must admit there is much in the universe that remains unknown to us, but this does not logically lead to allowing us to consider as a reasonable possibility that anything we project onto the unknown to be.

Drago বলেছেন...
এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।
Drago বলেছেন...

"I hear that, but I don't know why they think that..."

A full stop at that point is usually for the best in general, and especially true for unreconstructed Koffee Klatch-superficial Stalinists.

n.n বলেছেন...

Religion refers to a behavioral protocol or model.

Faith refers to a logical domain underlined by trust.

Science does not, cannot, discern origin and expression.

The universe is inferred from signals of unknown origin, fidelity, and creative intelligence.

Religions are constructed by God, gods, mortal gods, experts, and individuals.

Life evolves from conception.

A woman is of the female sex characterized by the feminine gender.

Luke Lea বলেছেন...

"Did they actually believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he had died for our sins and was resurrected?" Can't these ideas be understood figuratively, keeping in mind that these tropes were published in a world without free speech, in which the "original sin" at the start of history could not be spelled out in literal terms? Take the Adam and Eve story for instance: https://shorturl.at/hTTaV

Happy New Year to Ann and all her readers. She's the best.

Luke Lea বলেছেন...

In which case it would be simulations all the way down. Silly idea.

Luke Lea বলেছেন...
এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।
Narr বলেছেন...

People who claim that we exist in a simulation are only simulating an intelligent argument.

When the sim-theory is put forth, I have a strong desire to dump a cup or carafe of hot coffee on the crotch of the theorist.

Luke Lea বলেছেন...

Nicely said. Anyway we don't have the same need for faith that our ancestors have, who almost without exception found themselves trapped in a world of slavery and servitude—in which "the whole creation groaned in agony and travail"—with no obvious way out.

Sure, it seems hard if not impossible for us to believe today. But that is due to the new world of material abundance, liberty, and justice (the world of the West) that the faith of generations of our ancestors brought into being, the enjoyment of which requires no faith at all!

But for our predecessaors trapped in servitude, the mere possibility of a God who could and would reward every hardworking person in the end, and in the process you would bring into being a brand new world of liberty and justice: that barely imaginable possibility was a source of hope, purpose, community like nothing else at the time.

In short, Judeo-Christianity created a brand new sense of humanity that was utterly lacking in the Greco-Roman world. That was the true source of its appeal.

Wilbur বলেছেন...

Raised in a devoutly Catholic home, and with the then and subsequent benefit of 13 years of Catholic education, I deduced by age 14 that the notion of a God who intervenes in human affairs was preposterous. Nothing in the 56 years since has changed my mind, even for a moment.

I find atheism to be just as unsatisfactory, for the subject is unknowable, and the prejudices of atheists towards the the faithful are universally condescending.

Thomas বলেছেন...

The practical question is: which works better? Or perhaps, take on the faith that you wish everyone around you had.

RCOCEAN II বলেছেন...

Achually, any comment is correct . Unless it attacks Andy Sullivan.

Original Mike বলেছেন...
এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।
Original Mike বলেছেন...

"and the prejudices of atheists towards the the faithful are universally condescending."

I was going to stay out of this, but I can't let this one slide. No, they are not universally condescending. I'm an atheist, as defined by Ice Nine above (I believe there is no God, I don't know it), but I have a great deal of respect for believers and the positive virtues of religion.

Original Mike বলেছেন...

"Atheism is not knowing that there is no god, nor is it claiming to know that there is no god. Atheists merely believe that there is no god."

That's my view of it.

ron winkleheimer বলেছেন...

"I deduced by age 14 that the notion of a God who intervenes in human affairs was preposterous."

I was even younger than that. Of course, eventually I came to the realization that the opinions of children aren't the surest path to the truth.

The Godfather বলেছেন...

"You won't find out until you die." But, if there's no God, no afterlife, then after you die you won't find out anything. You'll just end. Are you prepared to accept that?

Rocco বলেছেন...

What do you say to all those smart people who think it's likely that we're living in a simulation?

Cook is Agent Smith.

Narr বলেছেন...

Marc Baer's book "The Ottomans" describes the diverse approaches to religious conversion that were used by the Ottomans and the other European (yep) empires over the centuries.

The Ottomans didn't always insist that everyone convert to their faith--unlike, say, the Spaniards-- and once someone had converted they tended to take them at their word and trust them--unlike, say, the Spaniards, who spent a lot of time and energy rooting out insincere conversos.

Of course, the relative tolerance afforded by the Ottomans meant that they picked up a lot of smart, hard-working, and productive Jews and Muslims whose talents were lost to the hidalgos.

Ironically, by the late 1800s, after laws recognizing formal legal equality for all Ottoman subjects regardless of religion, and abolishing legal penalties for apostasy from Islam, many speakers of Greek and Armenian came forward to claim that their ancestors who had chosen to convert to Islam had secretly kept to their old Christian faith the whole time.

The Godfather বলেছেন...

If you are an atheist, I can't persuade you with argument to believe in God (or in some kind of deity, by whatever name). And if you are a believer, I can't persuade you with argument NOT to believe in God (or in some kind of deity, by whatever name). For me, being a believer makes me a happier, better person. That doesn't make my belief correct.. It doesn't make it wrong, either.
I believe in a God who loves me and wants to help me lead a better life. And who knows that I often don't do what I should to achieve a better life. If I'm right, I get to live a good, full life for how many years I get on this world. If I'm wrong, well there you are!

LakeLevel বলেছেন...

The latest human understanding of physics posits that time and space are not immutable, meaning that all of space and time are available to be travelled by those who can. The universe is a mind bendingly large and old place. Someone will/will have achieved this. The first or most ambitious will control the universe as God. All this to say that if God did not exist, God would spontaneously be generated. Yes there is a God. Of course that doesn't prove that God is interested in me.

Nihimon বলেছেন...

I've learned too much about the difference (in outcomes) between extrinsic and intrinsic religion to have a high view of ritual.