Writes Jancee Dunn, in "I’m Middle-Aged, and I Talk to Myself All Day/There, I said it" (NYT).
Unfortunately, the experts — there are experts on what's "called private speech or external self-talk" — hadn't studied the phenomenon of talking to yourself more as you age. So the author didn't get the reassurance she seems to have sought: It's a very common development in middle age.
I see that more than one commenter over there says I talk to myself, but I'm not really talking to myself, I'm talking to my cat/dog. Now, this is one reason I don't want a dog. I'm pretty sure it would cause me to talk to it all the time, and I think that would change my pattern of thoughts into things one says to a dog.
I see that more than one commenter over there says I talk to myself, but I'm not really talking to myself, I'm talking to my cat/dog. Now, this is one reason I don't want a dog. I'm pretty sure it would cause me to talk to it all the time, and I think that would change my pattern of thoughts into things one says to a dog.
Actually, I think the practice of speaking aloud would change what I'm thinking. Even if there is no listener to make me ask is this intelligible? is this boring?, putting things into speakable words absorbs my attention. I would imagine a listener.
But the external self-talk discussed in the article sounds like speaking you would limit to yourself because it would annoy another person: expressing anxiety, encouraging yourself, asking where you put various items, narrating squirrel antics. And it's no wonder such spoken-aloud thoughts make you worry you're slipping into an unwholesome version of old age. You're fussing endlessly over trifles. That's something you can do silently, but when you do it out loud, you get a bit of distance on yourself: you hear that person and you think she's turning into that stereotype of an old person I've always worried I'd become.
पोस्ट्स
४३ टिप्पण्या:
You've never rehearsed a lecture? The great Richard Feynman treated a lecture like a performance, particularly for introductory-level stuff. While he was an assistant professor at UWM, Feynman taught an elective he called Physics for Poets, a course for students without the background mathematics. These were often minimally motivated kids looking to obtain a nature science credit, but by treating the material as the work of a great playwright, nice Doc Feynman kept them rapt, and thereby they learned something for life, rather than just long enough to spew it back on the final.
Is such a solo rehearsal talking to yourself? Or is it talking to an imaginary listener? And what's worse -- talking to yourself, a being in reality, someone who's there, or to a nonexistent someone who is not there?
There is such a thing as auditory memory. Speech that is heard, even if it is your own voice, is remembered differently than other inputs. If you say to yourself aloud, Bring those insurance papers with you to the DMV, perhaps you have reinforced that memory more strongly than the default internal monologue can achieve on its own.
More decades ago than I care to remember, the subject came up with a psych prof at a social meeting. He said it was perfectly fine to talk to yourself, and even answer yourself. He did it all the time preparing lectures and research papers. Then, with a grin, he added that if you talk to yourself, then say "Huh, what did you say?" there might be a problem.
“Talking to myself is okay. Answering back is risky.”
Brian Spellman
Heck, I *argue* with myself all the time, and usually end up losing those arguents.
“I'm pretty sure it would cause me to talk to it all the time, and I think that would change my pattern of thoughts into things one says to a dog.”
My dog is very, very smart, so this is not a problem or concern.
- Rafe
There is so much here to which I want to respond.
As a pre-teen, I used to speak thoughts silently to myself, until it became clear that I could let thoughts flow. That made my thoughts move faster, or at least it seemed that way to me. Now I work with a mix, more self-talk if I'm writing, less, if I'm working through a problem.
"things one says to a dog"
"narrating squirrel antics"
Things added to the list of good titles and potential euphemisms.
Was there any forethought as to the fact that narrating squirrel antics is exactly something one might reasonably say to a dog?
"Please, god, let there be vanilla extract," Lowercase god for NYT readers. Seems appropriate.
Are there really people who don't talk to themselves or their dogs? I doubt it.
The Times would do well to minimize this fluff and hire a few moderate to bring balance and improve news coverage. I would never suggest that they hire conservatives. Can you even imagine the bedwetting?
Wasnt there a post here a few years back about people who don’t have an internal monologue?
Do such people ever talk out loud to themselves? Maybe they need to, as the only way to verbalize their thoughts?
Or maybe they don’t need to, since their thoughts aren’t verbal to begin with?
JSM
I didn't see it mentioned in the post, and I don't have access to the NYT to read the entire article, but...I wonder if it mentioned that these people interviewed lived alone or with someone, or more than one. I ask because I was single much of my life. And though I had relationships and I worked in very people-oriented businesses, surrounded by large groups of people regularly, in my personal space, I've long talked out loud to myself. Not sure when it started. Maybe in childhood. But I only noticed it later in my life- middle age.
I think it started with me talking back to the TV. And who doesn't do that? I mean, besides my wife. But after years of talking back to the TV, either during political commentary or sports, I started to make comments about the local news, then other TV shows. Then it expanded to me just walking around giving a running commentary on all things in front of me. And I do that even today.
But it's not as bad as it sounds. It's not really a running commentary, and mostly it's not loudly out loud. Its just my own thoughts randomly sneaking out of my big mouth from time to time. My wife says "What?" a lot.
nice Doc Feynman kept them rapt, and thereby they learned something for life, rather than just long enough to spew it back on the final.
I suspect "nice' Doc Feynman was fed up with all the humanities gals trying to pick up an easy science credit in biology, to the great advantage of the biology Profs. He just wanted to give himself a chance. If you can figure out quantum electrodynamics, you can probably work out how to increase your chances with the shapelier sophomores.
PS as of - what, 1995 or so ? - you're not supposed to do this
There is such a thing as auditory memory.
Exactly, saying it out loud helps you remember. This also explains why you do it more as you get older. When you're young, you don't know anything worth remembering.
I haven't spoken to myself in years. There was stupid fight. I can't even remember what it was about now. Sometimes I think maybe I should reach out, but it's hard. Pride, I suppose.
“ Now, this is one reason I don't want a dog. I'm pretty sure it would cause me to talk to it all the time, and I think that would change my pattern of thoughts into things one says to a dog.”
As a dog owner, I can assure you this is nothing to worry about. Your mind can compartmentalize between dog-talk and self-talk.
Get a dog, Ann, and show him/her the sunrises.
Althouse:
Actually, I think the practice of speaking aloud would change what I'm thinking. Even if there is no listener to make me ask is this intelligible? is this boring?, putting things into speakable words absorbs my attention. I would imagine a listener.
You're supposed to imagine a listener. Kinda the point of writing for others to read. One of the foremost things to do as a writer is to read back your text aloud at least once.
I'm curious. What words do you use that aren't speakable?
@Bob Boyd, 8:06
Brilliant.
The time that I notice self talking is when I am typing. Very often, I find myself trying different things as I type along. Oh! I missed something, back up and insert it, before I actually get to typing it. Probably worse now because I do most of my typing one fingered on an iPad, and my left hand doesn’t let me touch type very well on a real keyboard. Just happy, in that respect, that I am retired, and don’t need a typist as a ADA accommodation.
I don’t talk to myself out load, but my partner sure does. It’s a bit weird, esp since she may not always know that she is doing it. She is also one who often thinks much faster than she talks. So, it can be disconcerting when she gets into certain modes, where she’s jumping around a bit. Sometimes sounds a bit crazy. Maybe that is where crazy comes from. She isn’t, really. Just sounds that way. Luckily it’s only when she’s in private.
Care must be taken to ID the self you are talking to.
Talking to yourself can be dangerous in this technological age.
After receiving a disconcerting text, I put my iPhone in my pocket.
Unbeknownst to me, it somehow began dictating a text of my choice words for the person. Even I was shocked when I read it!
Luckily, it didn't send and I was able to erase the expletive-filled text one letter at a time.
Oddly, the iPhone seems pre-disposed to capture video, audio or text when you put the devise into your pocket, yet highly reluctant to show you the time when you tap the screen after you take it out of your pocket.
I believe it's deliberate.
Sometimes talking to myself is the only intelligent conversation I get all day.
I forget who said that but it seems true for me.
John Henry
I believe it's deliberate
You must activate Siri to use CarPlay. Makes it easier for the people running Joe to know what you’re thinking…
I speak publicly on occasion. I seldom speak from notes but I do have PowerPoint slides to keep me on track. Not much text, usually pictures and video.
I usually run through these speaking out loud. As much to get the timing right as well as to make sure I know what I'm going to say.
John Henry
I used to make 2 5 minute videos every month for a client.
I found that for this a script worked best. I would write it out word for word and practice it out loud 5-6 times.
Then put it in a teleprompter program (promptdog) on my laptop. Laptop on a stand under the camera lens.
I usually nailed the first take.
John Henry
1. "You've never rehearsed a lecture?" — No, not really. That doesn't mean the performance wasn't planned and taken seriously. It's just that doing it in private wouldn't be enough like doing it with an audience to help. I could imagine doing it out loud so I could listen to it later when preparing.
2. People in movies and plays and videos often talk to themselves. That's a dramatic device. But maybe it gives viewers the idea that's how people think, by speaking aloud.
3. Maybe it is how people think. I certainly write as a way to see what I think. But of course, I'm not going to write all my thoughts. If I had to, I'd think a lot less, to save myself taking the trouble typing.
4. "Things added to the list of good titles and potential euphemisms." Ha ha. "Was there any forethought as to the fact that narrating squirrel antics is exactly something one might reasonably say to a dog?" No. I've never had a dog and am specifically avoiding finding out what I would say to one. I do encounter other people's dogs, but these are brief encounters, and I tend only to say "Hi, Sweetie."
5. "Wasnt there a post here a few years back about people who don’t have an internal monologue?" Yes. "Do such people ever talk out loud to themselves? Maybe they need to, as the only way to verbalize their thoughts?" Good topic for the experts to research.
6. "I think it started with me talking back to the TV. And who doesn't do that?" Hmm. Maybe I talk to the TV when someone is really wrong about something. There's no comments section, so it's all you can do.
7. "Get a dog, Ann, and show him/her the sunrises." Why should a dog get more attention than the sun? You have to pay attention to something and not to something else, but if you have a dog, you take on a moral obligation to pay attention to it... for many years. The risk there is too much. The sun won't suffer if I don't attend to it.
8. I should confess that I do talk to myself sometimes. I have the habit of saying "Oh, no" or "terrible" out loud when my silent thoughts demand that bit of relief.
9. And I have occasionally dictated notes into my iPhone — using headphones — when walking home after an encounter I want to remember and comment on. I can do that in a way that looks like I'm talking to someone on the phone... or so I believe. I mostly only do that when there's no one within earshot.
10. I read out loud sometimes when I'm reading poetry, and I would speak out loud while alone if I were memorizing something or checking to see if I'd retained a memorization. I memorized "Ozymandias" recently. And the mottos of the 50 states.
I occasionally want to hear something intelligent so I talk to myself
Out loud, only when I am pissed off by something stupid I have done and usually only when I am alone. My observation is that most people vocalize/subvocalize while writing/typing, but it is something I never do.
We had dogs growing up. Since I live alone, I didn't get a dog until I retired and have the time to spend with a pup.
When we are on walks or playing, I talk to him about dog stuff. He doesn't understand many words, so I don't talk to him about people stuff or random thoughts. He wants to be a good dog, and it would confuse him.
I eavesdrop when I talk to the dog.
My wife--whose hearing is poor--talks to herself a lot, practically to the point of narrating her own life as it happens . . . she also listens to a lot of audiobooks, and sometimes at night, while I am in bed but she's still in the bathroom (she stays up much later than I do) I hear sibilant whispers that I can't tell are hers or her device's.
I generally only talk to myself when I've fucked up. Sometimes I just say "D'oh!" but other times I berate myself as a stupid mofo.
Blogger Oligonicella said...
I'm curious. What words do you use that aren't speakable?
I think I have mentioned before that I write out 4 pages of the bible nightly. On my second trip through. 4 compo book pages, not 4 bible pages. About 30 minutes.
I read the verse out loud then try to write it without looking again. I usually have to peek.
I started with the King James and the New Testament. Between the 16th cent english and all the odd Bible names, I had a terrible time. Especially in the OT, many of the people and place names are very difficult to say out loud.
About halfway through the OT on the first go round I switched to the New Living Translation. It is a more modern English and much easier to read aloud to myself.
John Henry
You talking to me?
Wah?
I said - ARE YOU TALKIN TO ME?
Yes, I am You.
You're me?
Yes, and you're not you you're me.
So, you're saying I'm you?
Yes, You're talking to yourself again.
Me, myself and I.
Wow, I must be going crazy.
No, you're getting old.
You talking to me?
Wah?
I said - ARE YOU TALKIN TO ME?
Yes, I am You.
You're me?
Yes, and you're not you you're me.
So, you're saying I'm you?
Yes, You're talking to yourself again.
Me, myself and I.
Wow, I must be going crazy.
No, you're getting old.
“In one thing you have not changed, dear friend," said Aragorn: "you still speak in riddles."
"What? In riddles?" said Gandalf. "No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
Mr. Forward said...
“Talking to myself is okay. Answering back is risky.”
Nah. The other people in there often have some useful information.
As the old saying goes: It's totally alright to talk to yourself. It when you start to answer that you have to worry.
I don’t generally talk to myself. Never have. I will talk to inanimate objects if they are in my way or not cooperating. I have also been known to say (out loud), “knock it off, Satan” if I’m feeling particularly vexed. My husband talks to himself and in his sleep. I never know if I’m supposed to respond or not (when he’s awake.) My sister talks to herself a lot, especially as she’s gotten older. A friend at work used to mutter out loud when typing.
@Ann,
Somewhere out there is a dog who loves sunrises and sunsets, who is looking for the right owner, and will be careful not to distract you.
Concerning “I memorized ‘Ozymandias’ recently.”
If you have the time (the poem is less than 2 minutes), which reading is your favorite?
1) Bryan Cranston
https://youtu.be/T3dpghfRBHE
2) Richard Attenborough
https://youtu.be/bv2nklTyq9Q
3) John Gielgud
https://youtu.be/gHsBcUD_7jw
4) Vincent Price
https://youtu.be/S4vk0TLrpcY
@Ann,
Somewhere out there is a dog who loves sunrises and sunsets, who is looking for the right owner, and will be careful not to distract you.
Concerning “I memorized ‘Ozymandias’ recently.”
If you have the time (the poem is less than 2 minutes), which reading is your favorite?
1) Bryan Cranston
https://youtu.be/T3dpghfRBHE
2) Richard Attenborough
https://youtu.be/bv2nklTyq9Q
3) John Gielgud
https://youtu.be/gHsBcUD_7jw
4) Vincent Price
https://youtu.be/S4vk0TLrpcY
I've had dogs and been without them for years and I talk to them when I've had them. Unless you're giving commands it doesn't matter what you say as long as your tone is doing the communicating.
I haven't noticed any difference in my thoughts when I have a dog, but then I seldom think about such profound things as Althouse does very regularly.
Having a smart, fun, and sensitive dog is wonderful and makes life a little bit more satisfying.
If I had to memorize, I would recite.
I don't really talk to myself. I wouldn't be able to hear myself over all the songs I'm constantly hearing in my head.
“If you have the time (the poem is less than 2 minutes), which reading is your favorite?”
I put them in the order: Attenborough, Gielgud, Price, Cranston
Cranston’s was deeply marred by the background drumbeat.
Agree about Attenborough! (Great minds, etc.)
Thanks for taking the time.
Attenborough, Gielgud, Price, Cranston
i put them in the same order. I wanted to see if Burton or Olivier had read in on Youtube, but didn't find it.
I see that more than one commenter over there says I talk to myself, but I'm not really talking to myself, I'm talking to my cat/dog. Now, this is one reason I don't want a dog. I'm pretty sure it would cause me to talk to it all the time, and I think that would change my pattern of thoughts into things one says to a dog.
I talk to my dogs all the time. And, yeah, the conversations sort of devolve. But it's good for the imagination.
"You want to get on the bed, don't you? Well, you can't get on the bed. You're a dirty bitch, that's why. Don't you dare get on the bed. Don't do it. Don't do it. Look at that beautiful dog! Oh shit, you're on the bed. So brave. So brave."
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