A
NYT article about a case up for oral argument today.
The plaintiffs’ argument rests in part on a 1962 case,
Robinson v. California, in which the Supreme Court held that laws imposing penalties on people for narcotics addiction violated the Eighth Amendment because they punished a state of being, not a specific action, like drug possession or sale.
In a similar fashion, the plaintiffs contend, Grants Pass is punishing people for being involuntarily homeless, not for specific actions.
That argument held sway in a separate case
Martin v. Boise, in 2018. In that case, a panel of judges from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that Boise, Idaho, had violated the constitutional rights of homeless people by imposing criminal penalties for sleeping and camping outdoors, even though the city did not have enough shelter beds.
Lawyers for Grants Pass point to the Boise case as a cautionary tale. The decision only hastened “sprawling encampments, rising deaths and widespread harms to the community, as localities are forced to surrender their public spaces,” the lawyers wrote in
a brief.
३६ टिप्पण्या:
involuntarily homeless
Assumes facts not in evidence…
People are banned from camping in the city limits. That’s a specific action; not a state of being.
Should be 9-0.
Possession of drugs is a crime. Why you have them is irrelevant (except to the penalty, usually) Why you are sleeping on the street is similarly irrelevant to your physical presence there.
I swear we are living in the opposite times.
If Govt cannot regulate sleeping out side, can the bar me from setting up my law office, barbershop, lawnmower repiar shop in my home?
“Creating a public nuisance” is an action and at least a misdemeanor. You can be cited for littering and yet…
Situations where we don't like the motto "Live Free or Die"
Millionaire made himself homeless, broke on purpose for YouTube hits https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13332399/Millionaire-Mike-Black-homeless-broke-purpose-ends-bizarre-social-experiment.html?ito=native_share_article-nativemenubutton
For some, it’s tough being a drug addict and a law abiding citizen at the same time, it appears.
Interesting. Where do the rights of the property owners (who are tolerating (are they?) encampments and the detritus that goes with it) end and those of the squatters begin.
I hope the Justices don't open the door for people to squat inside a house, if they grant the right to camp out. They should write very narrowly. I agree this should be a 9-0 swat-down. We'll see.
I never would have predicted the privatization of public spaces to become a leftist cause.
so, if you're homeless.. You can sleep on the streets?
Because, if you're and addict.. You can buy heroin?
Interesting interpretation
Lawyers for the concrete campers would never give a concrete camper a room in their homes. The problem is drug addiction so severe that the concrete campers have burned all bridges with their family and friends. They have no other place to go.
They have to commit crimes to support their drug habit. Vigorous arrest, prosecution and sentencing can
1) get them off the streets into confinement with at least three hots, a cot and a shower.
2) Prison may get them to accept treatment which they can't quit
3) They won't be out committing more crimes and polluting the environment.
CC spending is just a way to fund left-wing NGOs who have no interest in ending homeless spending.
"for being involuntarily homeless"
Yeah, I can buy that for some of them. But no way for all of them. Especially in light of local and state shelter programs.
Bring back vagrancy laws!
"Rogues and vagabonds, or dissolute persons who go about begging, common gamblers, persons who use juggling or unlawful games or plays, common drunkards, common night walkers, thieves, pilferers or pickpockets, traders in stolen property, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons, keepers of gambling places, common railers and brawlers, persons wandering or strolling around from place to place without any lawful purpose or object, habitual loafers, disorderly persons, persons neglecting all lawful business and habitually spending their time by frequenting houses of ill fame, gaming houses, or places where alcoholic beverages are sold or served, persons able to work but habitually living upon the earnings of their wives or minor children shall be deemed vagrants and, upon conviction in the Municipal Court shall be punished as provided for Class D offenses."
It would be awful if someone offered several bags of weed to anyone who decided to be "involuntarily homeless" in any number of Washington DC politician houses.
These people need to stop being involuntarily homeless on the streets.
They need to be involuntarily homeless in mansions. Time for all the rich fucks that vote democrat to have to deal with "involuntary homelessness." Time for all of these corporations to house these people.
Oh wait the wealthy laptop donor class wants only working class people to put up with it?
You don't say...
And these laptop class assholes do not give a crap about these homeless people. The entire industry of homelessness is a grift for people who don't do anything to help anyone.
Civil society hangs on their decision.
"... even though the city did not have enough shelter beds. "
So the Government is expected to have shelter beds for everyone, regardless of the circumstance.
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
― Margaret Thatcher
95% of the time I come down on the side of perceived conservatism.
But not in this case. The illegal campers must prevail.
While it will never be stated, this is entirely an issue of taxation.
The government’s entire motivation in this case is make it as difficult as possible for citizens to enjoy the benefits provided by a highly taxed society without also being contributors to that same society.
The introduction of Obamacare made breathing a taxable event.
It should be equally obvious that falling asleep on a sidewalk must be a taxable event.
I’m not suggesting that the homeless (intentional or accidental it matters not) should be allowed to sleep anywhere, clearly people who have opted in to the taxation scheme deserve the benefits taxation provides, which includes exclusion from non-taxpayers.
This may make it necessary for the individual governments to provide sufficient open ground to allow camping to take place.
We could label them simply encampments, compounds, or perhaps ghettos. Imagine if every locale had its own little “West Bank”
Ultimately you will wind up with a near permanent underclass, but since that doesn’t seem like a fitting label, let’s call them feral citizens.
You can afford more drugs if you sleep on the city streets and the taxpayers clean up after you.
The plaintiffs’ argument rests in part on a 1962 case, Robinson v. California, in which the Supreme Court held that laws imposing penalties on people for narcotics addiction violated the Eighth Amendment because they punished a state of being, not a specific action, like drug possession or sale.
In a similar fashion, the plaintiffs contend, Grants Pass is punishing people for being involuntarily homeless, not for specific actions.
It was very rude of you, Dave Begley, to so completely demolish that with the exact same argument I was going to use. :-). Namely:
People are banned from camping in the city limits. That’s a specific action; not a state of being.
Should be 9-0.
It won't be. But it should be.
I have a small confession to make: When Jackson first started asking questions on the Court, she demonstrated all the idiocy I expected of someone who couldn't answer the quest6ion "what is a woman?"
But in the last couple of months, she's started asking intelligent questions that respond to what the people are saying, and get to the heart of the matter. So I'm willing to concede at this point that it probably was more "wasn't yet up to speed on teh issues" rather than idiocy.
So once the transcript comes out for this case, I'll be looking to see what she has to say. Because I have a feeling / fantasy that she actually will grow in office, and not always toe the Left line
Levi Starks said...
But not in this case. The illegal campers must prevail.
While it will never be stated, this is entirely an issue of taxation.
The government’s entire motivation in this case is make it as difficult as possible for citizens to enjoy the benefits provided by a highly taxed society without also being contributors to that same society.
"No taxation without representation" was a correct and good motto.
But so is "No representation without taxation."
You should NOT get teh benefits of our tax dollars when you're not willing to contribute to teh pool
I’m not suggesting that the homeless (intentional or accidental it matters not) should be allowed to sleep anywhere
Then you want them to lose. Because that's the current state of the law
The bizarre claim is that cities aren't allowed to make laws about the use of public property? Or it can make laws but can't enforce them? No more parking regulations, then.
The issue in Grants Pass is camping in parks. Parks were created for certain purposes. Transforming them into homeless encampments renders them unfit for the original purposes.
The homeless problem has reached astounding levels on the West Coast. It is beyond the level to even be affected by public policy, I'm afraid. It will result in some sort of revolution.
When the bums sleep in public, they take drugs in public, piss and shit in public, fight in public, beg and panhandle in public, fuck in public, etc.
That's the problem...
"Rogues and vagabonds, or dissolute persons who go about begging, common gamblers, persons who use juggling or unlawful games or plays, common drunkards, common night walkers, thieves, pilferers or pickpockets, traders in stolen property, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons, keepers of gambling places, common railers and brawlers, persons wandering or strolling around from place to place without any lawful purpose or object, habitual loafers, disorderly persons, persons neglecting all lawful business and habitually spending their time by frequenting houses of ill fame, gaming houses, or places where alcoholic beverages are sold or served, persons able to work but habitually living upon the earnings of their wives or minor children shall be deemed vagrants and, upon conviction in the Municipal Court shall be punished as provided for Class D offenses."
No doubt many of the lawyers here were chuckling at that. It’s from Papachristou v. Jacksonville, 405 U.S. 156 (1972). The decision threw out the (quoted) Jacksonville vagrancy statute on vagueness grounds.
My LS prof joked that it was an accurate description of 3Ls, reinforcing the point, and cementing it in my mind.
Well, if you are going to lower the bar on this issue to where people can pitch tents and cardboard houses wherever they please, then how do we draw the line at barring people from pitching a tent inside our own houses? If the city can't bar people from camping out in public property, where is the authority to evict them from living room?
A long history of punishment for homelessness, especially for adjuncts
In the same year first appeared the celebrated Act for the punishment of beggars and vagabonds and forbidding beggary, and requiring them to labor or be whipped. Herbert Spencer states in his "Descriptive Sociology" that it punishes with loss of an ear the third conviction for joining a trades-union, which, if true, would justify much of the bitterness of modem labor unions against the common law. The provision evidently referred to (22 Henry VIII, chapter 12, section 4) applies, however, not to guilds, but to "Scolers of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge that go about begging not being authorized under the seal of the said Universities" as well as to other beggars or vagabonds playing "subtile, crafty and unlawful games such as physnomye or palmestrye."
--Popular Law-making: A Study of the Origin, History, and Present Tendencies of Law-making by Statute, Frederic Jesup Stimson (1910)
Situations where we don't like the motto "Live Free or Die"
Apparently, you don't get tired of writing the same, stupid shit that is in no relation to the actual situation at hand.
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
― Margaret Thatcher
Except when it comes to funneling billions of dollars to profiteering arms manufacturers and dealers; to the corrupt War Department who cannot pass audits; to the drug manufacturers, who charge the public premium prices for drugs we, the people paid to be developed and tested; to banks and other wealthy financial entities who are tied in with the "public servants" who authorize the disbursements of funds, (usually with some sort of quid pro quo); to other nations who act as stand-ins for the US as proxy agents of empire; and to miscellaneous other thieves of the people's money.
I've slept in a homeless shelter occasionally, serving as a volunteer, sharing meals with residents. They deserve compassion, not contempt. Causes are varied: substance abuse, poor choices, life circumstances. There is no simple way to balance their needs with a city's need for cleanliness and safety. I am hopeful, though, that technology will develop newer forms of shelter at a much lower cost.
Joe Smith said...
"When the bums sleep in public, they take drugs in public, piss and shit in public, fight in public, beg and panhandle in public, fuck in public, etc.
That's the problem..."
Aparently not if you're a Democrat and don't live where all this is going on. Then it's OK.
Maybe if we quit subsidizing them they'll go away.
Howard:
Situations where we don't like the motto "Live Free or Die".
In no way has that slogan ever meant live free at someone else's expense except maybe in your delulu. It means in defiance of someone else's suppressive (can't kick campers off your stoop) efforts.
I was actually in Medford Oregon this morning. It's the city just to the south of Grant's Pass, where my grandparents used to live. I'm back in SoCal now and I wish to say that the homeless problem is totally out of control in both Grant's Pass and Medford. You, seriously, cannot jog on the jogging paths by the Rogue River without getting accosted by the homeless. (And sometimes getting robbed and beaten up.)
It would be one thing if the homeless were camped out in front of city hall, the police department or some other government office, but they should not be allowed to take over the public parks. Those spaces were specifically built, and paid for, by the taxpayers as a safe space for families and children. Because such a large percentage of the homeless are addicts and criminals, people cannot take their families and friends there to safely access the facilities.
I was watching an episode of Adam 12 last night. Malloy and Reid came across some hippies who were camping in a public park. They told them that if they weren't gone by 9:30 PM, they would be arrested. (They also suggested to the hippies that they contact a local church to see if the church could accommodate their camping.)
Times have certainly changed, but what should we do with people who occupy public recreational facilities but refuse to go to designated public shelters?
Mea Sententia:
They deserve compassion, not contempt. Causes are varied: substance abuse, poor choices, life circumstances.
None of those categories provide enough detail to be of worth. I can think of plenty of examples of each that warrant no compassion.
Howard said...
"Situations where we don't like the motto "Live Free or Die""
The problem is that the homeless are trampling on other people's freedoms. Your freedom only extends to the point where you're not impinging on other people's freedoms.
You seriously don't understand conservatives one bit.
Mea Sententia said...
I've slept in a homeless shelter occasionally, serving as a volunteer, sharing meals with residents. They deserve compassion, not contempt.
Anyone I do not have a personal relationship with who makes demands upon me deserves ONLY my contempt
We do not OWE them a home, a bed, a meal. We can CHOSE to give them one. You are welcome to volunteer to help them.
You are NOT welcome to "volunteer" the rest of us.
It's your "Christian duty" to help them? yes, it is. But the Good Samaritan spent his OWN money, and paid for others to help. He didn't demand that others "help" whether they wanted to or not.
I've read a chunk of the transcript. The thing I was most disappointed in was that the Grant's Pass attorney never said to Sotomayor "With all due respect, your honor, neither the US Supreme Court nor any other court has ANY role in deciding the difficult policy question of how we deal with the homeless. Your role is to decide whether or not the 8th Amendment clearly forces us not to enforce these laws, and it doesn't do that. Beyond that, the people whose proper role it is to decide what to do are teh elected officials of teh municipalities and States involved,
"While it's a hard question for them, it's not a hard question for you. The question for you is easy: do the words 'Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted' mean that a City can not ban people camping in City parks? once you've correctly decided that no it doesn't mean that, your job, and role as a member of SCOTUS, is done."
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा