Writes Elizabeth Barber in "The Case Against Children/Among the antinatalists" (Harper's). The author wants a baby.
Lots of stories of antinatalists at the link, but what I want to quote is some of the philosophical material:
“I do not think that one should have children; I observe in the acquisition of children many risks and many griefs, whereas a harvest is rare, and even when it exists, it is thin and poor,” the Greek philosopher Democritus is supposed to have said. He thought people should adopt, as “one can take one child out of many who is according to one’s liking.”
In The Childfree Christ, published in 2021, the Belgian antinatalist Théophile de Giraud argues that the Bible is an antinatalist text, a view emphatically held by Kierkegaard, who found it obvious that the Bible instructs the Christlike not to have kids. Jesus gave his followers lots of examples of how to be good in the world, but one thing he did not do was start a nuclear family. Instead, he collected a spiritual family, like that replicated in nunneries and monasteries.
Some Christian sects—most famously, the Cathars, who were sentenced to death by Pope Innocent III in the thirteenth century—later found cause to conclude that the Christly thing to do was not to procreate. “Better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun,” writes the author of Ecclesiastes. “May the day of my birth perish, and the night that said, ‘A boy is conceived,’ ” says the miserable Job. Likewise, the Talmud has it that “it would have been preferable had man not been created than to have been created.”
The less religious of our ancestors meanwhile found in the ugliness of the human world confirmation that God had not created this mess; we had. Human suffering served no plan besides the human project to grow a workforce of replaceable laborers. Al-Ma‘arri, a Syrian atheist born in the tenth century, wrote that existence was plainly not Allah’s gift, but a life sentence, a punishment. He was blinded at four by smallpox and, as a non-believer in a believing time and place, lived alone in a cave. “I know but this,” he wrote, “that him I hold in error / Who helps to propagate Time’s woe and terror.”...
६४ टिप्पण्या:
I bet they are fun at parties.
Doesn't get any more evil than this. God says: be fruitful and multiply. The evil one says doing so is bad for you. Better that you don't. Kill your offspring, kill yourself. God is the light and the life of the world. The evil one is darkness and death.
"In The Childfree Christ, published in 2021, the Belgian antinatalist Théophile de Giraud argues that the Bible is an antinatalist text, a view emphatically held by Kierkegaard, who found it obvious that the Bible instructs the Christlike not to have kids."
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
-- Genesis 1:28
Don't have children then. It's better for everybody if you don't have children.
This is a rhetorical justification for spending all your money on yourself.
The quote Ann used at the top sort of summarizes American liberalism today, doesn’t it.
The Dems are an America hating death cult. And I don’t say that lightly.
BTW, I’m going to cite David Mamet to the OPPD Board this week. My topic is con games and Mamet is a real expert on them.
I do so love my 3 minutes with OPPD.
the sensible thing to do; if you don't want children; is to do the Nex best thing
For me, philosophically, it comes down to how many children born severely disabled are asking to be euthanized?
They know more than others that life is a gift.
They are acutely aware this is their only chance, however difficult, versus nonexistence.
Maybe their parents can think about do-overs, but they can't.
If anyone deserves genocide, it's the anti-natalists.
a view emphatically held by Kierkegaard, who found it obvious that the Bible instructs the Christlike not to have kids.
"Or 'is the floor on the shit?' is what Kierkegaard would say."
Why don't the antinatalists commit suicide? Isn't that the logical conclusion? Death is nothinginess. Being not born is nothingness. Life is horrible. QED.
Ann Lee, after four lost painful births, decided sex was the original sin and founded the Shakers, who lasted two centuries, "an astonishing span for an absolutely celibate sect that could only survive through adoptions and conversions" (Harold Bloom)
“ Jesus gave his followers lots of examples of how to be good in the world, but one thing he did not do was start a nuclear family.”
And yet, when God became incarnate. He made sure he grew up in a nuclear family. And to be fair, if you, like Jesus, knew your mission was to travel around preaching for three years, scandalizing the authorities and ending in crucifixion, would you get married? Also, think of the mess it would leave behind for the Church He was here to establish if God had biological children. The believers would be too tempted to make the church leadership hereditary like all the other rulers of that time, even the priests.
I think, in general, both optimistic and pessimistic people find what they are expecting. Not that optimistic people won't experience grief and sadness and pessimistic people will have moments of joy, each will focus more, and remember better, the times that reinforce their view.
Let the optimistic people have kids and the pessimistic ones be free not to, we'll end up with a mentally healthier next generation.
New Testament reads like the Second Coming is imminent, so preparation for that trumps having children to prepare for ripe old age.
If a person is anti-natalist and has not yet committed suicide, then they are also a hypocrite. And as Norm MacDonald didn't say, that would be the worst thing.
What a terribly depressing way to look at the world, and life. How do these people survive?
@Althouse, every time I read one of your posts with a pro-abortion and/or antinatalist theme I feel more and more sorry for your sons.
Antinatalists are made, not born, obviously.
Funny how all the anti-natalists cling to life.
Let's help those who exist and are in need--not a bad motto.
I have set before thee life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live.
Easter in 2 weeks eternally solved the problem of hell on earth and replaced it with heaven on earth.
So these crazies must want to Depopulate the earth before that Word gets out.
Mark 13:17 — “And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!”
Dave Begley said...
"The quote Ann used at the top sort of summarizes American liberalism today, doesn’t it.
The Dems are an America hating death cult. And I don’t say that lightly.
BTW, I’m going to cite David Mamet to the OPPD Board this week. My topic is con games and Mamet is a real expert on them."
You might add something from Gad Saad's "The Parasitic Mind" if time permits.
'If anyone deserves genocide, it's the anti-natalists.'
So the abortion up-until-the-moment-of-birth crowd.
Your team.
We agree...
It seems like the burden is on the never-to-come next generation not themselves. No kids? Feel free to kick that can down the road hypocrites.
Choose your poison. Mine is rich foods.
I'd suggest cyanide for others.
I have never seen the will to live so deeply than in those whose life circumstances would horrify.
That is human grace. Nothing else matters.
Anyone who doesn't enjoy and cherish their children right from the start isn't doing it right.
- Krumhorn
This is a philosophy for those for whom it is difficult to find joy in the world or live with themselves. Not that few people would be better. But moderation in all things. May these failures become self correcting over generations and die out.
He thought people should adopt, as “one can take one child out of many who is according to one’s liking.
He couldn't conceive of IVF.
I'm not sure what "the science" says, but I tend to think that happiness/unhappiness and optimism/pessimism are largely a matter of brain chemistry. Those who don't produce enough dopamine or acetylcholine or whatever are destined to be mopes (and perhaps antinatalists).
“ Babies grow up to be adults, and adulthood contains loneliness, rejection, drudgery, hopelessness, regret, grief, and terror.”
One of the joys of watching your children grow is seeing them successfully meeting life’s difficulties. It is painful to watch, but once each challenge has passed, it is wonderful to see their growth.
It was not early Christianity that was anti-natalist--it was the paganism of the Roman Empire. The low birthrate in the empire was a constant problem and even in the time of Augustus laws were passed to try to force the upper-class to marry and have children. These laws were unsuccessful. And why would the lower classes be interested in producing children who would spend their lives as slaves? Contraception and abortion were widely practiced among the pagans, and Paul warns against them. Unfortunately, our modern translations cover up these warnings, which are often couched in language condemning magic/witchcraft. In an era when medicine involved potions and incantations, that these warning come right after the condemnation of sexual sins should be a tipoff: Paul is condemning the procuring of abortion through magical incantations and potions. Early Christian writers were very clear that Christians did not abort their children and did not practice infanticide as did the pagans.
Christianity was a huge step forward for the status of women and children. To understand Christianity, one must look not only the texts that were later recognized as canonical, but the totality of the writings and how Christianity was practice (i.e., tradition). The affirmation of the Old Testament (including the words of Genesis that creation was good and that humans should multiply) in the face of heretical groups that sought to divorce Christianity from its Jewish roots and the clear evidence that early Christians emphatically rejected abortion speaks against the claim that the Bible is anti-natalist. Only after the widespread growth of Christianity did the population of the empire start to grow organically (as opposed to immigration of barbarian tribes).
The word is "misanthropy," not "antinatalism." They hate humanity itself.
What a depressing view of existence. Why don't they be real leaders and start the big purge as the first volunteers. One thing I have noticed is that people who are alive tend to want o stay that way. Even people who commit suicide, for the vast majority of their life prefer life. To say that life is misery and no one should foist it upon someone else is about as stupid a thought as one could have. Sure, they would miss the misery that is a part of the deal, but they miss out on the wonders and the joy and the discovery and the myriad other things that make life rich. Oh, and typical of many people, they mis-quote and mis-understand the Bible. To say that the bible says something is not the same as saying that something is said in the bible. Job, for a brief moment in his life despaired and whished he was not born. The rest of his life he rejoiced in it. If y9ou can't see that life is the most precious gift in the universe is a sad testament to you.
”When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.“
John 16:21 ESV
This confirms my stance that Mother Nature combined peak human fertility with our dumb teenage years for a reason.
Hell, we all have our bad times and moments of despair.
I don't see these people lining up to have their existence snuffed out.
How silly to say that anyone would be better off not existing -- they wouldn't exist and so couldn't benefit from not existing.
Every day I regret not having had children. Yet if I had had them, perhaps I would have regret that too. Who knows?
In its better forms, Christianity has long affirmed singleness without children and married life with them.
To be fair to Job, the Preacher, and even later figures like Kierkegaard and Schopenhauer, they lived in a world that was bereft of central heating, barbecue, and internet porn. I suppose it's true that life is a fatal disease, but there are now so many ways of finding symptomatic relief before the bell tolls......There were times in my youth when I would have agreed with Job, but it really does get better if you stick around....I'm an old man. One of the comforts of senescence is the awareness of how much life used to suck and how comfortable it now is. Remember when you had to break in a new pair of shoes or when you didn't own a television because, outside of sports, there was nothing worth seeing. Or if you listened to the radio, you had to listen to crap music and commercials before they played the one song you liked. And my life was a blessing compared to the shit my parents and grandparents had to endure....I don't see any upside to death, but I perhaps the anti-natalists will be less aggrieved than the rest of us when they enter hospice care.
Global warming hoaxers should, by their own logic, kill themselves immediately. Think of the carbon reduction if ALL socialists followed suit. For the Planet!!!
If only their parents had subscribed to that doctrine.
As it is, we should leave this to Darwin to further reduce the herd.
"I think, in general, both optimistic and pessimistic people find what they are expecting."
Every single one of the frozen corpses slowly mummifying on top of Mount Everest was once a highly-motivated person.
"[T]hey agreed on basically everything, including that new human life is not a gift but a needless perpetuation of suffering."
So the mindset of a bunch of mopey anst-y teenagers.
""Babies grow up to be adults, and adulthood contains loneliness, rejection, drudgery, hopelessness, regret, grief, and terror."
Sounds like a mood disorder. There's meds for that; there's even OTC supplements for that.
"I do not think that one should have children; I observe in the acquisition of children many risks and many griefs, whereas a harvest is rare, and even when it exists, it is thin and poor,” the Greek philosopher Democritus is supposed to have said."
So mopey angst-y teenagers who never grew up have been around for thousands of years. And ancient Greek ones, having a philosophical bent, found an intellectual way to rationalize their angst.
"The less religious of our ancestors meanwhile found in the ugliness of the human world confirmation that God had not created this mess; we had."
You mean we have Free Will? Sounds very Christian-y to me (among others).
"Human suffering served no plan besides the human project to grow a workforce of replaceable laborers."
Sounds like an argument to close the border.
“Global warming hoaxers should, by their own logic, kill themselves immediately. Think of the carbon reduction if ALL socialists followed suit. For the Planet!!”
They only want to die if everyone else dies first, Then, ha ha, fooled you!
In Witness, Whitaker Chambers describes the moment in which he understood the existence of God—it was looking at the perfection his daughter’s ear. I spent tonight with my daughter, her husband, her in-laws, and three of our eight grandchildren—four hours of human perfection and joy wrapped around a dinner.
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Extra context regarding Mark. Sounds like everyone will get a raw deal, not just gravid women.
Glad to see I’m not alone in the thought that the anti-natalists, the humanity haters, the “we are parasites on Gaia” crowd, etc., should obviously just commit suicide immediately; to do otherwise is hypocrisy of the highest order. I don’t really care how they do it - a bare bodkin, carbon monoxide, firearm, etc. - as long as it’s sure and doesn’t endanger others (no suicide-by-cop or murder-suicide, for example), and they…Just. Do. It.
For me, atheist that I am, in the poignant words of John D. MacDonald, “…it’s real black out there and it lasts a long time.” I’ll stay on this side of the dirt as long as I honorably can, because there ain’t nothing else.
“ Jesus gave his followers lots of examples of how to be good in the world, but one thing he did not do was start a nuclear family.”
Or did he? The Bible is really silent there. We have Roman Catholic theology that essentially says that Jesus’ four brothers and at least two sisters, weren’t, but were maybe cousins or some such. But that he had at least 6 siblings goes back to the original text in Aramaic and Greek. But if he did have that many younger (half, but legal) siblings, then Jewish culture of the time would have required that he marry first, before his younger brothers, and some of them were known to have been married. One way out of this is the theory that he indeed did marry, as his culture required, but didn’t start his Ministry until either his wife died, or the kids were gone. Something like that. Or, as the Gospel of Mary suggests, his wife’s part was later erased for political reasons. We will likely never know for sure. And for me, it doesn’t matter.
Oh, Lordy, it just seems too much to ask for the media to get their exposition of the various faiths straight. Let's walk through it, shall we?
Some Christian sects—most famously, the Cathars, who were sentenced to death by Pope Innocent III in the thirteenth century—later found cause to conclude that the Christly thing to do was not to procreate.
The Cathari (also known as the Albigensians) were a version of the Manichean "heresy" that took power in Provence in the 12th C. I put heresy in quotes, because, while the Christians of the time saw Manicheanism as a heresy, modern historians tend to see it as a religion in its own right . The Cathari version came from the area that is now Bulgaria, and were referred to by the Byzantines as the Bogomils.
Manicheans believe that the material world was created not by the "good" God, the God of Light, who created the spiritual world, but by the evil Demiurge, the other God, equal in his malevolent power to the good God of Light. The Demiurge has imprisoned the spirits of human beings in material bodies. The Manicheans believed in the pre-existence of souls, so that every time a child is born, the Demiurge succeeds in imprisoning a good spiritual being in matter from birth to death. So, they frowned on sex, at least of the procreative sort. This is the reason that the English word "bugger" or "buggery" refers etymologically to the Middle French "bougre", used by the French as an insult for these Provecal heretics, and which I think also derives from the word "Bogomil".
Trust me, the more you read about the Manicheans, if the Roman & Eastern Orthodox Catholic Churches had to persecute someone, these guys are right at the top of the list. A good reference is here.
Likewise, the Talmud has it that “it would have been preferable had man not been created than to have been created.”
Talk about yer fuckin' cherry picking quotes! If there's a more family centered faith on the planet than Rabbinic Judaism, it'd have to be the Mormons. What nonsense!
As for orthodox Christianity, we are created at conception as body and soul, a mingling of spirit & matter, each side an essential aspect of our being. Our existence is by the Will and Grace of God. When St Thomas Aquinas deals with the question of how a merciful God can send the Damned to eternal suffering in Hell, Thomas replies that God in His mercy at least allows the Damned to still exist. This underscores, in a way foreign to the modern mind, how for Christianity, our existence is perhaps the greatest of the Graces God bestows upon us.
It's like .there's two answers on two different scales. If you look at group suffering there is no "answer." But if you speak to a person they are almost always getting on with their lives.
For instance I remember a video of a crowd Palestinians, mainly women and children waling down a main road to get out of the north of Gaza. It was shot from behind at the end of the crowd. I noticed one women who was walking with her two children. The kids were dressed in track suits and their mother was wearing nice-looking Palestinian clothes including a head-dress. She was pulling an airline carryon size bag with wheels. Her son was about eight and he was wearing a large knapsack and striding forward with his chest thrust out, ready for adventure. Her daughter was about four and she had a tiny little knapsack with her teddy bear thrust into the straps and she was dancing along next to her mother, ready to see butterflies or any bright thing. This was a family you see in airports but they were walking down the designated safe street with ruined houses on both sides and gunshots being exchanged among the ruins. They had six miles to walk to beyond the gunfire. And if you multiply those three by hundreds of thousands the mass of suffering is overwhelming.
Yet you could see what that one woman was doing. She selected warm, sturdy clothes; she packed a suitcase and two knapsacks, including the teddy bear; she left her home behind; she encouraged her children to step out fearlessly toward whatever, some hope. That's what she was doing, not bewailing injustice and thinking her children should never have been born. The way this woman was living is the common way that lives are lived on an individual level. At least it seems that way to me.
Bach was the youngest of 8.
"He that hath wife and children hath given hostages to fortune; for they are impediments to great enterprises, either of virtue or mischief. Certainly the best works, and of greatest merit for the public, have proceeded from the unmarried or childless men." ---Francis Bacon, Essays (1612)
I can't see this as a long lasting problem. Won't the people holding this view die off?
the cherry picking quotes assume the unmarried monks and nuns reject family. Yet reality shows that they are praying for the rest of us, and often they are doing stuff like running hospitals, farms, schools, libraries etc. for the good of those around them.
As a doc I'd say these people are either deeply depressed and need prozac, or have an existential crisis and need to find Jesus, or are just selfish sociopaths, who need to justify their actions.
The left always so confuses me.
Are humans nothing but, another mammal on the planet? Or are humans made in the image of God, having dominion over all other life on the planet?
God said "go forth and multiply"
Trying to shoe horn Jesus into guidance on having children, ignores the purpose of Jesus. You know, "the Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost".
David said...
"In Witness, Whitaker Chambers describes the moment in which he understood the existence of God—it was looking at the perfection his daughter’s ear."
So Chambers found God in an eerie way.
Sounds like Gnosticism, straight up. We've purged Christ from our civilization, and what do you know? An ancient anti-Christian cult pops up to take his place.
YoungHegelian gives a good explanation of Manichaeism, an extreme form of Gnosticism. There was a long battle between Christianity and the heretical cults, but Christianity won.
We have raised an entire generation to be completely ignorant of the history and sources of their own civilization. We are all about to find out what sort of world we would have gotten if the cults had won.
P.S. to any Belgian anti-natalists: Come to Canada! Our loving, caring government will put you down like any old pet, any time you like, for any reason or none, from conception forward! Hurrah! Death Is Progress!
I don't recall Schopenhauer's opinion about children, beyond his rather charming idea that romantic love between a man and a woman is the expression of a child's will to be born.
Two observations:
1. And yet, here he is.
2. Talk about being blind: “...When people have vested interests, they will not buy it.” But “this doesn’t tell me anything about the argument,” he concluded. “It tells me something about the obstinacy of people.”
Babies grow up to be adults, and adulthood contains loneliness, rejection, drudgery, hopelessness, regret, grief, and terror.
Yes. Do it anyway. No earthly joy can compare.
" No earthly joy can compare."
This
The meaning of life is life. To experience life in all that comes with. To be trite, without experiencing sorrow you wouldn't have anything to compare to joy.
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