I don't have an EV, nor did I want one... even before all the talk this year about how bad they are in cold weather. But somehow I clicked on "Frigid weather saps EV batteries. Here’s how to keep yours running."
Is there really any good advice, or are you just screwed when it's really cold?[T]o heat an EV cabin, energy must be sucked from the same source used to propel the car. Research from AAA found that EVs lost an average of 41 percent of their range when the heater was on and temperatures were below 20 degrees.
And what percent if it's below 10 degrees? Below 0? Below 10 below?
The article says "plan ahead." And do what? We're told to keep the car warm. Don't let it get cold in the first place. Or pre-heat it while it's still plugged in... at home. And maybe get a heat pump:
Heat pumps aren’t found in every EV, but maybe they should be considered as an optional add on — especially for people who live in places with drooling winters....
Drooling winters? How could winter drool? Wouldn't the drool freeze?
Presumably, the word that escaped this writer is "grueling."
पोस्ट्स
१२६ टिप्पण्या:
Heat pumps don't work in super cold weather. There are heat pumps sometimes built into the car to move waste heat in various places to places in the car that can use the heat, though, which isn't quite the same thing. That's a pretty integral part of the design though.
Plan ahead. Move south in the fall and don't return until spring. Of course, you might have trouble finding working charging stations during your trip.
I don’t think EVs are a good fit in the North when you don’t have a garage. People doing street parking and using public chargers just are not going to have a good experience especially in winter. I have a garage that never goes below 45°or so and I rarely drive more than 80 miles in a day, so a 320 range Tesla would be fine for me in winter. Of course, electricity is horribly expensive here in New England so electric is not as competitive with traditional cars as elsewhere.
As far as heat pumps go. Teslas moved to using heat pumps instead of resistive heating elements a few years ago, just for this reaso: they are much more efficient at heating a car, from 2 to 4 times as efficient depending on the temperature. And, they also cool the vehicle when needed.
Also, Teslas are reputed to have very good traction control and driver assist, and many models are all wheel drive, so they are probably very good at driving on snow and ice.
You should take one out on a test drive sometime just to see what they are like.
Imagine basing your entire economy, the entire economies of the world, on energies that cannot function properly when winter comes? As if this is something to not really address other than some occasional helpful 'hints' from people with a journalism degree. Solar panels won't be very effective when it's cloudy or snowy as it is in much of the world during the winter months. Wind turbines freeze up. Batteries, already a problem with energy storage, cannot hold a charge in the freezing weather and cannot recharge properly.
Yet our betters are insisting that this has to happen and it has to happen or we'll all die. I dunno. I'm betting the John Kerrys and Greta Thunbergs of the world are not just wrong, but nothing more than cult leaders making big bucks on the best grift since the invention of politics.
An EV is a bad choice for a cold weather vehicle. Batteries perform poorly at cold temperatures because low temperatures inhibit the chemical reactions. All of the heat for the cabin comes from the battery, and heating takes a lot of energy. Technology can mitigate those facts, but the solutions won't be as convenient as an internal combustion engine.
"Imagine basing your entire economy, the entire economies of the world, on energies that cannot function properly when winter comes? As if this is something to not really address other than some occasional helpful 'hints' from people with a journalism degree."
And all on the fear of things getting too *warm*.
Imagine leaving the heat off in your car so you'll at least make it to your destination and knowing, as you freeze, that you did it to fight global warming.
More engineering opportunities for men to fix and temporarily shut up the naysaying Karen's and Nancy boys. Where would we be without these hysterical canaries in the coal mines?
It's represented in physics by the Nernst equation. The equation calculates the electrochemical potential of a cell (i.e., a battery). Temperature is a variable in the equation, and it's predictable how specific changes in ambient temperature will affect the battery life in winter.
Here in southeast Texas, my husband told me that EV owners were being asked during this week's hard freeze not to charge their vehicles at home overnight - because the added demand could threaten the grid. I suppose that would rule out using electricity just to keep your car warm too...
Remember, Secretary Granholm wants to electrify military vehicles. Wars will only be fought in the summer.
"Imagine leaving the heat off in your car so you'll at least make it to your destination and knowing, as you freeze, that you did it to fight global warming."
Add to that the knowledge that the case for anthropogenic global warming is weak, at best.
I watched a good video from a person that had a Tesla car and roof. The roof has an app that helps you to know what devices use the most amount of energy in your home by reviewing the actual power draw on your circuit (IOW, not just some metric of average similar systems). By far the biggest power draw was charging the Tesla vehicle. It surpassed every other appliance in his home. So when the grid operator asks users to decrease demand, then the best way to lower demand is not to charge your EV.
Related, Jordan B Petersen suggests looking up C40 cities and 15 minute cities to discover this isn’t a surprise to those pushing EVs.
"I don't have an EV, nor did I want one... even before all the talk this year about how bad they are in cold weather."
They don't care what you want. You will comply.
Dare I say putting an electric toaster under the car battery compartment is an effective way to get the battery, car, and garage very warm?
https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-vehicle-owner-denmark-toaster-warm-car-battery-starts-fire-2023-12
An EV is a bad choice for a cold weather vehicle
Yes. This is it…surprisingly, I reject the EV digital. We make so many tradeoffs when choosing a vehicle but we never say things like pickup trucks shouldn’t exist because they are so impractical for families, or two seater sports cars will never catch on. If you drive long distances or live in severe cold don’t get one, or have your other household vehicle compliment the EV you like.
The left politicized them and that may lead to their downfall…kind of too bad…
So it's-20 and you're sitting in your car, heater on so you won't die, will you even be gaining charge at all? You'll be there for hours.
EVs can be great for places where it doesn't get cold and where people don't drive long distances, such as California cities. They're basically sunshine cars. I had to make a 260 mile trip last Tuesday to help my son's mother-in-law. The temperature was low and the roads were ice and snow covered in many places. My Subaru Outback performed like a champ. I did see a couple EVs that day but they were near a big city. There's no way an EV would have made that trip without at least one stop to charge. As it was, the road conditions made a trip that normally would have taken about 4 hours total into an 8 hour trip, including an hour stuck on the road while they were trying to remove a crashed semi. An EV would have taken 9 or more hours for the same trip. Nope.
"Imagine leaving the heat off in your car so you'll at least make it to your destination and knowing, as you freeze, that you did it to fight global warming."
When it's really cold, you need a defroster or your breath will freeze on the inside of your windows. There's no saving electricity by riding in a very cold car.
Don't buy one
Well to do virtue signaling. You have to have another car for trips.
Subsidizing them is not just with our tax money. Their extra cost is added across the whole fleet.
People are figuring it out.
130 day inventory on dealer lots.
Plan ahead. Move south in the fall and don't return until spring. Of course, you might have trouble finding working charging stations during your trip.
@Texasyankee, but not too far south because didn’t I just read that the great state of Texas is having trouble with its grid providing adequate electrical power to its customers in this (and last) winter?
The snowbirds will probably find charging stations during their flight to warmer climes, though with lengthy lines of cars ahead of them also needing charging.
I think the "drooling" author is under some delusion that electric cars were meant to be as good or better than gasoline powered vehicles. Electric cars, like heat pumps, solar panels, and wind turbines, would be, in saner times, solutions in look of a problem. Instead, they are the result of people losing their religion. They have replaced this gap in their life with Gaia worship flavored Marxism and now they want to punish the infidels. This is now combined with Bond villain style billionaires who want to exploit this to their own benefit. The fact that electric cars are inferior is the point. Don't worry. Once everyone has electric cars, the electric cars will be banned as well.
Reality is just a nuisance when you have a world to save and a peasant class to create. Though they want to ban farming too so no peasants. Eloi, perhaps. Probably Eloi that look like Morlocks, other than the billionaire concubines.
Althouse: And all on the fear of things getting too *warm*.
Imagine thinking that buying an electric car will make the weather gooder.
I’m in Dallas, where it was 12 degrees last week. I’m also a new Tesla owner, we bought mainly as a run about town car. I’m surprised how much I like it. I keep it plugged in the garage. It works great on snow and ice. How much do I love preheating my vehicle before getting into it. Getting acquainted with the Tesla, I get a kick out of seeing how the engineers basically reimagined how cars are put together. It’s an ingenious little invention. Nice to have options. But I also love love love my Toyota 4Runner for different reasons. I am pro choice in automobiles.
EVs seem like strictly an idea a Californian would come up with.
I mean even a NY transplant to socal has no freaking idea how cold it gets some places, and then it's "why don't they move?"
Temujin said...
"Yet our betters are insisting that this has to happen and it has to happen or we'll all die. I dunno. I'm betting the John Kerrys and Greta Thunbergs of the world are not just wrong, but nothing more than cult leaders making big bucks on the best grift since the invention of politics."
I think it's even worse. It's about power and control. C.S. Lewis was right:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals."
Electric car owners should use their other car during cold spells. And for trips that exceed the electric cars range. If you don't have an extra car, an electric car is not for you.
Even if we all agreed about Climate Change, reasonable people could still disagree about what to do about it.
Electric car owners should use their other car during cold spells. And for trips that exceed the electric cars range. If you don't have an extra car, an electric car is not for you.
Left a fully charged Tesla in the cold CT driveway over this past 3 day weekend, came home it was less than half charged
"... are you just screwed when it's really cold?"
To ask is to know.
Materials unavailable, power needed, transmission lines, cot of vehicles, loss of choice due to mandates, charging stations, time to charge, reliability/safety, actual effect on CO2 output, taxpayer costs due to government incentives.. all these and more are why EVs are losers.
And will remain so.
BUT, good news, the Chinese and multitudes of Democrat faithful will get those sweet, sweet federal dollars.
I chuckle that this is written from the POV of someone living in Washington DC -- where it rarely gets cold! And if the solution is to keep your poorly insulated garage heated, how on Earth does that lower your Carbon Footprint?
I have seen Teslas driving around Madison in the past 5 super cold days, so I guess it can be done, but I've not stopped to ask them how they keep the batteries charged. Maybe that's a question for the Madison subreddit, but I think just asking the question there were lead to lots of downvoting.
At 8:08 Howard the Fool shows off one the more ridiculous beliefs in the liberal catechism — the insane idea that all they have to do is legislate goals and somehow the engineers will figure out how to meet them. The possibility that sooner or later they’ll run up against the laws of physics the way Bidenomics collided with the laws of economics seems never to trouble their silly, foolish, little minds.
If you think driving an EV is a bad idea during the annual Globally-Warmed cold snaps, just wait 'till the tax credits expire.
@Gilbert - that Nernst fellow sounds white. I suggest you look to Afrochemistry for answers.
. . . Odd, in the winter ICE is the answer.
EVs might make some sense as a second car, for short commutes and tooling around town, as long as you have an ICE vehicle for longer trips - or colder weather. But even then its primary function would be virtue signaling.
Same propagandists everywhere.
"Imagine leaving the heat off in your car so you'll at least make it to your destination and knowing, as you freeze, that you did it to fight global warming."
You say this like it's a BAD thing... Some critics may find this lacking in "grit", particularly for those fully dedicated to exhibiting virtue. True martyrs to the cause will be found frozen in their vehicles when and if the sun returns.
Martyrdom operations for Gaia! Those stuck in Florida will have to aspire from afar.
When your EV is so low on charge that you can't move it is certain that the tow truck you call will be powered by a gas or diesel engine. If you are injured in a traffic accident while driving your EV, the ambulance will also be only gas or diesel powered.
If your EV is so low on charge that it cannot move, it is certain that the tow truck you call will be powered by a gas or diesel engine. If, while driving your EV, you are injured in a traffic accident, it is also certain that the ambulance will be gas or diesel.
Sorry if this is a double post, but Blogger ate my first draft.
Temujin, Jamie:
Puget Sound Energy Is the main supplier of gas here, maybe in all of Western Washington. It also supplies electricity to the moral rural areas; cities and towns tend to have their own electric utilities (as is the case where I live.)
We heat, heat water, and cook with gas, so we are a PSE customer for gas. During the extreme cold here we got a similar email from PSE about conserving energy by reducing our use of gas during the extreme cold.
Well, that's over and we are back to normal Puget Sound cool winter weather, and what shows up in the email like a comma on from PSE how we can switch to being an all-electric household. How insane is that? The only question is whether it's purely insane, or with a large ad mixture of evil.
Basically, you can't run an EV in a northern state like Wisconsin unless you have a garage. That means that apartment dwellers can't run EVs. Our Betters will haughtily disregard the uppity fact but after this winter everyone in the winter zone can see it. We simply can't totally convert to EVs. That was always true but a calculation of the amount of electricity needed in the future nationwide and of our inability to achieve that amount is too remote a calculation for most people to act on. But people can clearly see the meaning of: "I need a garage to keep the thing running so I can get to work. And I don't have a garage." Or, "I need a garage to keep the battery from collapsing and leading to a huge repair bill. And I don't have one." This isn't the end of EVs but it's the end of "everyone is going to be driving EVs in ten years."
It’s heartening to see and hear the tide changing with respect to EVs. For a niche market, sure, but that’s it. There’re enough emergency calls on the road as it is.
Are people new to the concept of below freezing temps and batteries? If the battery in your car loses cranking amps in cold weather then what do you think a car made of batteries is going to do?
"Also, Teslas are reputed to have very good traction control and driver assist, and many models are all wheel drive, so they are probably very good at driving on snow and ice."
No. Unless you have good ground clearance in deep snow you're just going to spin your wheels. Nothing drives well on ice. No matter how many wheels are driving. Even with chains.
Soiboi Howard. Ever the manager, wants someone else to fix his problems. Typical.
Althouse said.
"Imagine leaving the heat off in your car so you'll at least make it to your destination and knowing, as you freeze, that you did it to fight global warming."
That's where the phrase, "cold comfort", come from.
nonsense! Saskatchewan "experts" say..
"Electric cars 'the best vehicle' in frigid temperatures, Sask. advocates say"
"It heats up faster than any gas car I've ever had. It's more reliable," said Tyler Krause, who sits on the board for the Saskatchewan Electric Vehicle Association and founded the Tesla Owners Club of Saskatchewan.
Vehicles lose "some" range, but they will start reliably, say owners
Pointer, founder and president of the Saskatchewan Electric Vehicle Association, said the extreme cold does reduce the range of his Tesla by 40 to 50 per cent.
"I wake up with a 'full tank' every morning because I plug in at night and I wake up and my car's fully charged in the morning," he said. "I've got more than enough range to do all the regular stuff that I need to do on a daily basis.. since i work 3 blocks from my house."
Pointer said, The BEST Thing about driving an EV, is that it has Really helped with his poker game.
I can lie with a completely straight face now.. People ACTUALLY think i HAVE those Aces!
It’s not just EVs.. Many factory parking lots in Minnesota have long had plugins for block heaters. The problem of cold weather is worse for EVs, but not an order of magnitude worse:
“Cold weather and winter driving conditions can significantly reduce fuel economy. Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips.
Cold weather effects can vary by vehicle model. However, expect conventional gasoline vehicles to suffer a 10% to 20% fuel economy loss in city driving and a 15% to 33% loss on short trips.
The effect on hybrids is typically greater - with fuel economy dropping about 30% to 34% under these conditions. For hybrids, fuel economy typically decreases by 20% to 40% in city driving and 25% to 45% on short trips.
For electric vehicles (EVs), fuel economy can drop roughly 39% in mixed city and highway driving, and range can drop by 41%. About two-thirds of the extra energy consumed is used to heat the cabin. When the cabin heater is not used, EV fuel economy is 8% lower at 20°F than at 75°F. Driving range is about 12% lower.”
I've had an experience of driving between cities during a Canadian cold-snap when the (gasoline) engine just never 'warmed up' enough to let the thermostat direct coolant to the heater-core inside the cabin. It was an uncomfortable few hours, but -- as my practice is to have appropriate clothing for the outdoor temperature just in case I experience car trouble -- it wasn't a big deal. On the return journey I blocked the radiator, and –30° was then not a problem for the car and I had a comfy trip home.
Electrics like Tesla are perfect for geeks who will know about the 'battery preheat' process that speeds cold weather charging – if you do it on the way to the charger rather than once you've plugged in. Geeks who know how weather and driving style affect range, have read the forum on how to easily un-ice the charging latch that sometimes won't work when it freezes up. Kinda sucks however if you arrive to the supercharger with the car ready to 'quick charge' but find the bays are all blocked with new arrivals who need to be plugged in for the whole battery preheat cycle before they even begin to charge. I suspect that's one of the reason why the Tesla dashboard shows you which charge-bays are open and which are busy -- so you can choose a less busy alternative if your range and route make it nearly as convenient for you.
They're not available from Tesla, but other makers have 'plug in hybrid' cars that the majority of the time will run as electrics but if needed will run and charge themselves using the built-in gasoline engine -- So if the power-grid fails, or if one suddenly needs to go care for an ill relative or friend three states away, it isn't a stress or a detailed route-planning exercise. One gets the benefit of the (presumably) cheaper electric power, but eliminates 'range anxiety' and stress over availability of charging.
I saw the other day that charging a Tesla at a public charger cost about $13 per 100 miles of range. I wondered how that compared to my Hyundai Elantra.
I get 40 miles to the gallon, averaged over 10,000 miles of probably 60% city, 40% freeway. (I get 50mpg on a 200 mile mostly freeway trip), if gas is $4/gallon I pay $10/100 miles. Currently gas here is $3/gallon so about $7.50/100 miles.
Looking at specs for both Elantra and Tesla (Model 3, I think) all the dimensions such as cabin height, front and back leg room, overall size etc were within +/- an inch or two of each other. The Tesla did have slightly more trunk space but not that much and the Elantra has plenty to start with.
Tesla list was $46m. I paid, with all fees and taxes, $26m for my Elantra.
I spent a week once riding around in a Tesla with a client. It was a nice car and comfortable. No complaints. But I didn't see anything that would make me pay more for it than my Hyundai.
I don't see that there is any payback ever to a Tesla in this use case.
And him having to spend 10 minutes in the middle of lunch moving his car off the charger to a parking space would certainly be a deal breaker. I think he had to pay 50 cents a minute if he left the car on the charger when finished. Might have been more.
I can also drive to the other side of the island, spend the day with a client and get home the same day (@250-300miles) in my Hyundai.
10-15 years ago I really liked the idea of battery cars. 5-10 years ago I still liked the idea but didn't think they were ready yet. Now, I don't think they will ever be ready for general use except in certain limited circumstances. Daily commuting, charging in a fireproof garage.
John Henry
I saw the other day that charging a Tesla at a public charger cost about $13 per 100 miles of range. I wondered how that compared to my Hyundai Elantra.
I get 40 miles to the gallon, averaged over 10,000 miles of probably 60% city, 40% freeway. (I get 50mpg on a 200 mile mostly freeway trip), if gas is $4/gallon I pay $10/100 miles. Currently gas here is $3/gallon so about $7.50/100 miles.
Looking at specs for both Elantra and Tesla (Model 3, I think) all the dimensions such as cabin height, front and back leg room, overall size etc were within +/- an inch or two of each other. The Tesla did have slightly more trunk space but not that much and the Elantra has plenty to start with.
Tesla list was $46m. I paid, with all fees and taxes, $26m for my Elantra.
I spent a week once riding around in a Tesla with a client. It was a nice car and comfortable. No complaints. But I didn't see anything that would make me pay more for it than my Hyundai.
I don't see that there is any payback ever to a Tesla in this use case.
And him having to spend 10 minutes in the middle of lunch moving his car off the charger to a parking space would certainly be a deal breaker. I think he had to pay 50 cents a minute if he left the car on the charger when finished. Might have been more.
I can also drive to the other side of the island, spend the day with a client and get home the same day (@250-300miles) in my Hyundai.
10-15 years ago I really liked the idea of battery cars. 5-10 years ago I still liked the idea but didn't think they were ready yet. Now, I don't think they will ever be ready for general use except in certain limited circumstances. Daily commuting, charging in a fireproof garage.
John Henry
EVs can be great for places where it doesn't get cold and where people don't drive long distances, such as California cities.
Gotta watch out for hills and mountains as well. EVs don't do well when there's a lot of climbing, even with the regenerative braking. That darned entropy thing.
Imagine leaving the heat off in your car so you'll at least make it to your destination and knowing, as you freeze, that you did it to fight global warming.
People who have gas engines won't know about the tremendous personal sacrifice you're making for them. You'll have to tell them. You'll have to tell everybody.
It's like being a vegan. You have to tell everyone or you won't get credit for your virtuous behavior. But that's okay. Nothing warms the cockles quite like the feeling of moral superiority.
Heck, why not turn down the heat in your house to make up for the fact that the heat is on in your garage all the time now, keeping your chastity belt, I mean your EV, warm. You won't feel the cold. You'll be smug as a bug in a rug as you nibble your frozen carrots with your gloves on.
An EV would be great as long as you didn’t have to go farther than the grocery store. The fake range estimates also don’t factor in the effect of carrying one or more passengers or their luggage.
We are being lead by the dumbest people in modern history.
At some point - our corrupt leftist mob-government will force us to buy EVs.
I spent last week in Phoenix AZ. Nice city, nice countryside. Weather was cool, 50s in the day, down to 30 one night.
My client lives in a fairly nice, fairly new house. He has a A/C with heat pump for heating. (A heat pump is just a standard airconditioner that can swap the condenser and evaporator to move heat from outside to inside)
He was telling me that at 30 deg the heat pump was OK as long as he didn't want the house too hot. Below 30, it struggled to keep the house warm and he had space heaters to help it along. That's always been my understanding of heat pumps. When there is not a lot of heat outside, it is hard to move it inside.
I wonder how the Tesla heat pumps do in cold weather? does it keep the car toasty or do you still need to wear long pants, gloves and a hat?
John Henry
Drooling, progressive viability with rapid charge and discharge, and a probable short-circuit while charging a cold battery. Tick tock.
so, just to be clear (and Not Snarky.. This time)..
The people that say that EV's are "doable" in the winter:
a) have heated garages
b) keep their EV IN the heated garage.. Charging All night.. Preheating before travel
c) don't have to go more than 100 miles, Round trip..
d) and THIS is the important one.. Don't care or worry about their EV/garage/house/life burning up
"Or pre-heat it while it's still plugged in... at home."
Assuming that, after we go full green, the wind blows or the sun shines.
The efficiency of a heat pump isn't very good once you get down into the low teens and single digits unless you lower the set temperature inside the car to compensate.
It's like having a horse, just because you aren't using it, doesn't mean that you can ignore it. It has to be taken care of, and it is better off being kept in a stable, (heated garage) than tied to a hitching post on the street.
I have a friend who drives a Nissan Leaf, and she says it won't run when it gets to -22F, just gives her a little message saying it won't run. I am sure that she could build a garage and heat it, or put a high capacity charger at her house, take out a second mortgage, and she wouldn't have any of these problems, though. So the EV evangelists have a point. You could probably make them work in Antarctica, but it wouldn't be a vehicle that you could just ignore while you weren't using it.
Static Ping
Heat pumps are actually a great idea in certain areas like Florida and the sunbelt. They allow the same air conditioner, with the addition of some valves and controls, that cools your house to heat it. No need for a second heating system.
But, unless you really oversize it, it won't provide enough heating when the weather gets really cold. Or even moderately cold like my client in Phoenix.
And there is the problem. People take a good idea, IN CERTAIN APPLICATIONS, like heat pumps, battery cars and solar panels and try to jam them into all applications including many where the laws of physics prevent them working well or at all.
Then, when people say "Nope, doesn't work for me." They try to jam them down our throats.
John Henry
3rd, 4th and 5th order effects of battery cars are interesting
https://www.packagingdigest.com/flexible-packaging/will-electric-vehicles-put-pouch-machines-out-of-business-
John Henry
On the bright side, a heat pump has infinite efficiency when the outdoor temperature is the same as the indoor temperature you want. It's math. You're dividing by the temperature difference of zero.
My heat pump works fine in Vermont until it gets down to about -15F, when it is at its rated limit. I have backup oil heat. But I can afford that, I don't think that it would be an option for most people to have two separate heating systems for their home. The guy who plows my driveway lives in a double wide, and if he heated it with a heat pump, it's likely that he would be supplementing it with space heaters, which are somewhat dangerous, and at -28F, (the coldest I have seen here, two times, a couple decades apart) he would probably looking at burst pipes. These technologies are not for people who are just getting by, financially.
Not sure how a person who has to park on the street is going to manage an EV at all. And when they do force us into EVs, we will start hearing about the "inequalities" of charging. Here is a plan: Address the gird and inequality issues before forcing us into the cars.
“ The effect on hybrids is typically greater - with fuel economy dropping about 30% to 34% under these conditions. For hybrids, fuel economy typically decreases by 20% to 40% in city driving and 25% to 45% on short trips.”
Cite, please?
I owned a hybrid for several years, when I lived in New England. I’m the guy who uses a trip odometer so I can do a quick gas mileage estimate every time I fill up. I never experienced variation anywhere close to these numbers with my car. Except for the annual mpg decrease with winter mix gasoline, it was pretty much the same mpg in all temperatures.
Language Question: "Some charging stations are stinted because cold weather causes congestion at the few sites that are working." Is "stinted" the word the author meant to use?
Jeff Vader said...
Left a fully charged Tesla in the cold CT driveway over this past 3 day weekend, came home it was less than half charged.
No problem! Left Bank says it's not much worse than an ICE car. Of course I never had to hire a "car sitter" for my ICE vehicles when I went out of town during cold spells because they don't lose half the gasoline from the fuel tank while parked. And to all of you "they're built for California" people, keep in mind our state isn't a flat plain like the Midwest, and we do get very cold and very hot spells in many locales, both of which affect EV performance. So sure, if you have an extra vehicle for necessary trips, an EV will work fine for occasional short trips in CA in good weather when our grid is running well.
I was in Quartzite AZ last weekend, and the new gas station has 84 x 250KW Tesla Superchargers. That's 21MW of power if they are all in use (they weren't, not even close). The power must have been supplied underground, because there were no obvious overhead lines. This is pretty close to the Palo Verde nuclear power plant, so I guess that helps.But this is a massive amount of electrical power to deliver to a gas station. All to charge 84 vehicles at any one time. The 30 or so gasoline pumps next door could refuel far more vehicles per hour.
Blogger Left Bank of the Charles said..."It’s not just EVs.. Many factory parking lots in Minnesota have long had plugins for block heaters. The problem of cold weather is worse for EVs, but not an order of magnitude worse:"
I'd say it's two or three order of magnitudes worse. The issue isn't the fuel economy, it's the recharging/refueling difference.
And as to block heaters, they went the way of the doo doo with fuel injection and computers. They're really not needed anymore.
Do you own a car?
I have a 2012 Toyota Tundra that I do not drive in the winter (I want it to last the rest of my life). It sits in the unheated garage, unused, for 2-3 months at a time (mid-winter, when the road are salt free, I take it out for a spin). Starts right up, every time.
since i work 3 blocks from my house
Why on Earth would someone drive to work if it's only 3 blocks away?
Oops, Toyota Tacoma. Don't know why I typed Tundra.
Caroline said...
I’m in Dallas, where it was 12 degrees last week. I’m also a new Tesla owner, we bought mainly as a run about town car.
This is the most sensible thing at this point. EV's may be the future, but as of now they're not yet ready for prime time.
Getting acquainted with the Tesla, I get a kick out of seeing how the engineers basically reimagined how cars are put together. It’s an ingenious little invention.
Let's hope that's the only kick involved. I've been reading horror stories about people having to replace large sections of the Tesla's body to repair minor dents that have wrecked the structural integrity.
Perhaps it might be edifying to you to google EVs in Norway.
The other thing you need to remember about electric cars is they are very expensive. If it wasn't for the subsidies the government is providing, they would be prohibitively expensive, especially as a second car. Some auto makers, even with the subsidies, are losing money on every car, often substantial amounts of money to the point that they would never continue this business if not for the fact that they are essentially being forced to do so. It is also going to be "entertaining" when huge numbers of toxic spent batteries all need to be recycled at the same time.
If you bought an electric car, keep in mind that you and the taxpayers bought that car.
My husband the engineer also pointed out that the description of how a heat pump works was seriously wrong on many levels. What is wrong with our newspapers/sites these days? Doesn't anyone check facts anymore? To say nothing of the "drooling" winters. Someone in the comments on the article suggested it was an AI bot that wrote this and I wouldn't doubt it one bit.
EVs are great for what I use mine for. It's a grocery-getter, run around town, drive it up to 100 miles (200 round trip) car.
For everything else I drive the small sedan with all-wheel drive (good for mountains).
EVs make NO SENSE if you live in cold weather.
In the 1980s, automakers permanently soured American car buyers on diesel propulsion by rushing a lot of half-baked implementations to market. Our government seems intent on recapitulating that mistake with EVs.
Larry J said…"When it's really cold, you need a defroster or your breath will freeze on the inside of your windows. There's no saving electricity by riding in a very cold car."
Excellent point.
Chicago this past week should have been a wake up call to the the BEV crowd, but the Elites are determined to force us into them no matter what.
On a related note, I read this morning that BEV sales are down 40% in Germany as compared to last year. The reason? The subsidies expired.
"Darkisland said...
Static Ping
Heat pumps are actually a great idea in certain areas like Florida and the sunbelt. They allow the same air conditioner, with the addition of some valves and controls, that cools your house to heat it. No need for a second heating system.
But, unless you really oversize it, it won't provide enough heating when the weather gets really cold. Or even moderately cold like my client in Phoenix."
We're experiencing a cold spell here in Alabama, with a repeat set for this weekend. My 11 year old house has a heat pump and it works fine most of the time. When the temperature drops much below 20 degrees and is forecast to stay there, I switch it to Emergency Heat Mode. That means it doesn't run the compressor which isn't doing very much anyway, but it uses the electric heat strips for all heating. This works better than being in normal heating mode and having the system use the electric heat strips to make up any deficiencies. You might pass that on to your client. He'll have a high electric bill one way or the other, so you might as well be comfortable.
"Perhaps it might be edifying to you to google EVs in Norway."
This is the new Godwin's law for any environmental/energy related thread mentioning Norway.
"130 day inventory on dealer lots."
There's car dealer ad on Madison radio at the moment where the narrator enthusiastically tells us that their EV inventory is great!. Makes me chuckle every time I hear it.
For an EV in winter you need a stand-alone HEATED garage with a high speed charger. EVs won't charge off a normal home circuit in winter as the battery heater uses more power than can be fed to car, especially if it is outside. And stand-alone so if/when the battery ignite some night it doesn't burn your house down.
The charging stations in Chicago became "EV graveyards" fill with "dead robots".
A heat pump works in a thermal gradient that is either naturally occurring or forced, where viability must be discerned in vivo.
Jeff Vader said...
Left a fully charged Tesla in the cold CT driveway over this past 3 day weekend, came home it was less than half charged
Teslas use 1% every day running their battery heater when it is cold. They lose 15% a day if you leave the "sentry" mode on to keep it safe.
As for the block heaters on ICE vehicles, that is so the car can start without damage as the oil is too cold to flow, it doesn't effect the range of the gas in the tank. And the computer compensates for air density adjusting the fuel injector shots.
Ann Althouse said...
"Imagine leaving the heat off in your car so you'll at least make it to your destination and knowing, as you freeze, that you did it to fight global warming.”
Just lie back and think of Paris.
The Paris Agreement on Climate Change, that is.
The EV market is still growing, albeit slower. Sums it up. In the meantime it’s not slowing in China which is building mass EV manufacturing capacity to wipe out the European and American car manufacturers. The Kodak moment for the ICE industry is now — which should be good news for consumers.
As production ramps up and more players get in the game, price and margins fall. It's called competition. Stellantis is way behind the curve and a lot of those who are behind the curve are trying in various ways to slow the growth of EVs. They might succeed to a point but only for a short time. Less whining, more efficiency.
From the Mackinaw City, MI area, 14 year Tesla owner: Use the car's "preheating" capability to warm the battery before you try to charge (it's automagic in Tesla's *but* you have to let the car know). Also, if you're in a northern state, don't lease your Tesla from one of the ride-share companies like Uber, because those are single-motor base models and the motors are a primary heat source for battery heating. And wait until your preferred EV is available with NACS (Tesla) charging because the alternative charging networks have Yugo-level reliability.
Blogger Old and slow said...
I was in Quartzite AZ last weekend, and the new gas station has 84 x 250KW Tesla Superchargers. That's 21MW of power if they are all in use (they weren't, not even close)
Quartzite is served by Arizona Public Service company and their tarrif sheet is here
https://www.aps.com/-/media/APS/APSCOM-PDFs/Utility/Regulatory-and-Legal/Regulatory-Plan-Details-Tariffs/Business/Business-NonResidential-Plans/e32_Large.ashx?la=en
The demand charge looks like it is in the $7-10KW area, Let's go with $7.
Demand charge is based on the highest usage for any 15 minute period during the month. If 84 cars pull in and hook up, drawing 2,100KW (21MW) for 20 minutes the demand charge for that month will be $14,700.
Even if nobody uses any of the chargers for the rest of the month, the gas station will owe $14,700. Plus however many KWH were used at whatever the per KWH is.
Who pays the $14,700? The gas station is on the hook for it, of course, but how do they charge their customers?
If you have 84 customers on the chargers all the time, then it is pennies for each. If you only have the 84 for 20 minutes, then it is $175 each you need to bill them.
Potential demand is a real cost. Wires, transformers, switchgear, generators everything has to be sized to meet the potential whether it is ever reached or not. That costs money and is a real issue in how utilities sell power for charging EVs.
John Henry
Plan ahead. Buy a gas car.
Tesla owner here. We are in a very good position as EV owners: we live in a mostly temperate state (not this past week, though!), have a garage and a charger therein, rarely drive further than to Portland or Newport and back, and never allow it to go far down the charge scale. We have done road trips, without incident, from Salem, OR to the SF Bay Area. My husband has also taken the car to Colorado several times.
The people saying "niche vehicle" are right, of course. If you live in an apartment or a row house or anywhere else you can't charge overnight, you're screwed. You need a garage. (Ours is not heated, but temps remained above freezing in last week's deep freeze.) And you need to know where your charging options are on longer trips. Tesla, thankfully, makes this easy for you by displaying them on internal maps. (And they keep adding superchargers, too; it's seriously impressive.)
Blogger Dan from Madison said...
This is the new Godwin's law for any environmental/energy related thread mentioning Norway.
OT but just so everyone knows, Mike Godwin has officially pronounced it OK to make an exception for Donald Trump. He really is worse than Hitler (according to Godwin) and it does not contravene his law to say so. Note the date, 2015.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/sure-call-trump-a-nazi-just-make-sure-you-know-what-youre-talking-about/
"Perhaps it might be edifying to you to google EVs in Norway."
Norway has a ton of money thanks to oil...about $1.3 Trillion.
Their citizens can afford to drive whatever they like.
Unfortunately for them, they are still letting in Muslims, which will eventually destroy their society...
most people are stupid. they pull up to the pump, fill up, and don't check the oil, ever. even they have to be aware of how much gas they have in the tank and how far they have to go. some don't and run out. interestingly, most small plane crashes are due to running out of fuel so being able to fly a plane doesn't necessarily make you that smart.
sure, electric vehicles are more heavily impacted as the temperature dips, but that doesn't mean you can't adapt. at 10 below, you're going to lose half your range, so you're going to have to look at your range. also, you never let an ev get close to zero before heading to recharge. it seems that this was a key problem in the chicago area. some pulled into a charging station very low on charge and found the wait time was too long for the car to last until a stall opened up.
I might be interested when you can fill them up in less than ten minutes. Like real cars.
Rich, why the fuck won't you address the issue here, which is the difficulties people have charging and starting their EVs in cold weather, and the short mileage experienced at those times?
Wanna 'splain how that will change, or why would-be buyers ignore them?
"Perhaps it might be edifying to you to google EVs in Norway."
Forty percent of Norway's population is in the greater metropolitan area of Oslo, and the rest of it is mostly scattered across the southwestern and western coast in places like Bergen, for example. Take a guess at the daily average low temperature in Oslo during January, the coldest month- it is 24F. The average low in Bergen, the 2nd largest metropolitan area is 33F. Here is Oak Ridge, TN, the daily average low in January is 29F.
I bet 95% of the EVs in Norway are in those 2 metropolitan areas and the rest are also along the same climate zone. Where people live in Norway has about the same winter climate that I get to enjoy here in Tennessee.
As soon as we hear of vehicles that can be powered by bullshit, Howie will be in demand.
Long post reply thread and I didn't see one mention of Norway. Look up Iceland and Sweden too.
EVs are horrid for anything beyond golf courses (nearby) or quasi-railroads (highways with charging stations; wired-in power lines) situations. They have always been terrible, as one must carry around heavy half dead or 90% dead batteries. EVs were invented 100+ years ago and they sucked back then. Combustion engines are far, far, far, far better for versatile transportation.
Listen to Toyota. They were 100% correct about hybrids being the future. They use less gasoline and use batteries where it makes sense.
DarkIsland said:
"Who pays the $14,700? The gas station is on the hook for it, of course, but how do they charge their customers?"
No - Tesla leases the lot space for the Supercharger and pays the cost for utilities. It's been that way all along..
I guess that people who grew up on Harry Potter imagine that there is a book of spells somewhere that will overcome the limitations that our current understanding of physics imposes.
Maybe they think that cold weather is a thing of the past, like when they replaced the main Great Lakes icebreaker with a less powerful one, then they had to call Russia to clear the St Lawrence Seaway when it got really cold a few years ago. I hope that doesn’t happen again!
"Left a fully charged Tesla in the cold CT driveway over this past 3 day weekend, came home it was less than half charged"
Does the possibility of essentially throwing away 50% of the energy in your tank (battery) get figured into EVs fuel efficiency estimates in any way? And you can just imagine the howls of outrage over wastefulness by the greenies if the same thing happened with a gasoline powered car.
130 day inventory on dealer lots
I wouldn’t talk this ip as exclusive to EVs- On a road trip through Florida this month it is apparent there is a glut of ALL vehicles on dealer lots there.
It's always a pleasure to watch science kick the ass of people who just "know better" and want everyone to go along with their one-step "solutions". Some accept the education and change their minds, most don't.
Turns out, battery science IS rocket science, so to speak.
Electric Vehicles are not zero-emission vehicles, they are emission elsewhere vehicles. The power to recharge them will come from a coal or gas power plant. By the time the power gets to the battery, the efficiency is the same as an ICE car. The ICE car efficiency is primarily determined by the compression ratio and the transmission gearing. Heating the cabin of an ICE car is done by waste heat unlike an EEV, where the heat comes out of the range of the EEV.
Refueling an ICE car still takes about 5 minutes in the cold, unlike the extended recharging times required for an EEV.
We're not hearing much about it but the wind turbines suffer from winter as well.
All the silver bullets have turned out to be painted paper mache.
The greenies have been pushing CO2 as a pollutant hoax for decades now. Atmospheric heat transfer is primarily by convection and conduction up to the start of the stratosphere (36,089-ft in the standard atmosphere model. You results will vary). Radiative heat transfer is minimal at sea level. Methane and other so-called greenhouse gasses contribute almost nothing, so trying to regulate them will achieve nothing.
The climate models couldn't predict when the Sun comes up, let alone the temperature in 2100. The current models show temperature rates that are 2.5x bigger than the historical record over the last 45-years.
The climate hoaxers in Washington State want to ban outdoor small engine tools and home generators in favor of battery tools. Battery tools work for small jobs, but a gas-powered tool is required for any kind of real job. I have both kinds of lawn mower (zero-turn riding mower vs. 20" EGO), chainsaws and leaf blowers. My backpack leaf blower is essential to clearing the leaves off of the lawn and ground. The battery leaf blower doesn't come close to doing the same job.
Drooling winters, West Virginia
Blue ridge Mountains, Salivating summers ...
I was back at my Ivy League grad school for a reunion recently, and for the first time in decades I saw one of my old study partners, a very earnest Jewish guy from some big city shit-hole back East. We'd sparred a little about politics, but remained casual friends, and I had always thought him a decent fellow. I also met his equally earnest wife, from a similar background. They drove a couple of hundred miles to get there in their Tesla, apparently without incident.
They wore face masks all weekend, and for the entire event, they refused to talk to anyone about anything except global warming, unless it was to take a break for COVID-19, and how Donald Trump was more evil than Hitler. They seemed to have a particular animus about bringing these topics up with me, which I suppose is because as a student I never was shy about giving voice to my rural Wild West right-wing libertarianism and climate skepticism. (In those days in the Ivies, this was not the social and academic suicide it is now, although it did make me stand out from my classmates.) The constant unpleasant political scab-picking became frankly boring, and made me avoid them as much as I could get away with. They are both teetering on the edge of a folie-a-deux madness, in my view. I came away convinced that if they had the chance, they would support prosecution and imprisonment for anyone publicly challenging their fanatically unhinged opinions on these topics. Which I did, with vigor. I suppose I will never speak to him again, until he is a witness for the prosecution at my climate-denial show trial.
This dogmatic rigidity is particularly pathetic because the guy has a doctorate in a hard science, and must have passed a few classes of physics at a university level. He knows about the reproducibility crisis in science, because it affects his field. But his knowledge of the subject was on a par with Joy Behar. He had never heard of Arrhenius, didn't know that the greenhouse effect of CO2 is logarithmic (he guessed exponential), didn't realize that this implies that all the catastrophic scenarios require positive feedback from other greenhouse gases, didn't know what these other gases allegedly are (water vapor and methane), was unaware that scientists still don't really know the sign of the feedback effect, much less its magnitude, and did not know that sustained positive feedback loops in nature are almost unheard of, for reasons that should be obvious. Yet he was adamant that speculations from the farthest fringes of climate science should be regarded as gospel and be backed by the force of law.
Buy more guns, folks, and carefully consider the circumstances under which you might need to use them, if you mean for your children and grandchildren to grow up in freedom and prosperity. It is disturbing to the point of cold terror that we have to share a nation with such people.
Gilbar beat me to it.
Basic advice is to keep your EV in your heated garage, charging overnight.
The EV makers advise all owners, to not park the EV withing 100 foot of anything flammable.
My feeling is household insurance will void a claim involving an EV that is less the 100 feet from your real property. Renters aren't even allowed to have open flames in apartments, but parking your EV next to building to charge,(and lining up a dozen EV cars within 10 feet of each other!) is a non-starter
So, the cold weather advice is woefully short of adequate.
One of the commenters gave her tesla rave reviews and the cold snap was no problem and the car, AWD would get around great in ice and snow. Not so fast. Her in Iowa we have experienced a very snowy 10 day stretch, around 30 inches. IF you can manage the cold. Night time low -19F daytime high -7F, you have to deal with streets full of snow. Tesla's ground clearance has a sticker on the owners manual saying not suitable for North of the Mason, Dixon line.
All that being said. If you like the EV's, I could not be happier for you. That is not the debate. The debate is the federal Govt regulating ICE out of existence in the next 15 years.
"Listen to Toyota. They were 100% correct about hybrids being the future."
They finally got to the sensible engineer running Toyota and he has been fired, presumably to make way for new blood, who can stick his finger in the political winds.
I love too how commenters compare the issues of Diesel engines on long haul trucks in cold weather with gasoline powered cars, which, admittedly, if their battery is not replaced every three years or so, will experience problems starting on cold mornings right up until the owner of the car forks over the $140 to exchange his battery for a new one, and gets another three years of cold weather starts.
But Temujin, global warming will mean the end of winter eventually, anyway, maybe, at some point, so all that stuff won’t matter.
"I wouldn’t talk this ip as exclusive to EVs- On a road trip through Florida this month it is apparent there is a glut of ALL vehicles on dealer lots there."
Assume no government thumb on the scales, which glut do you think would be eliminated first?
The people who have been wailing for years about running out of landfill space are the same ones calling for solar and windfarms as far as the eye can see.
Make of that what you will.
Obelisk,
So if tesla is the utility's customer, they have to pay the $14m each month rather than the gas station?
I'm sure they don't just eat it. They get it from the car owner somehow.
I can think of a couple different potential models but don't much care. I just wanted to point out the size and nature of the demand charge.
John Henry
Global warming or not, EVs are not for everyone. For a small fraction of the driving public they are probably OK or better. That fraction will probably grow over time.
Everything that can be said about EVs has been said over and over. Now let the market decide.
"Everything that can be said about EVs has been said over and over. Now let the market decide."
That would be a good thing. Big Brother disagrees.
Re: Global warming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNV1-VJeeqs
MDT,
Part of the reason the Tesla works for you guys is your specific circumstances.
But another part is the fact that you are outliers.If the government does succeed in forcing the majority of drivers into EV's, you're screwed; we're all screwed. There isn't remotely enough additional reliable generation capacity coming online to actually be able to power those beautiful Tesla charging stations .
For the Fani Willis fans:
'This is a clip of Fani Willis from 2020 where she says she would fire any employee who sleeps with a co-worker, promises to not date “anybody that works under me,” and said it would be “unfortunate” if taxpayers had to fund sex misconduct lawsuits'
Another mega windmill collapses in Colorado.
These windmills are collapsing because the structural engineers (if there are any) size the towers for steady wind loads, but ignore the unsteady wind loads and metal fatigue. It's the wind-induced vibration that killing these towers.
Airplane structures are always sized for both steady and dynamic loads. Special attention is payed to fatigue issues. Skin doublers are added to areas of particular unsteady flow.
EVs didn't succeed a hundred years ago in North America and will fail again. How many Bell automobiles have you seen lately?
Hassayamper 4:35 PM:
Wow! I totally agree. N. Central AZ.
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