"And it seems like audiences are tiring of the constant homework assignments.... These franchises are spelling their own downfalls, as the price of entry into the fandoms has become frustratingly high for the dedicated disciples of these worlds, and not at all worth it for casual viewers or prospective new fans. This year has been a prime of example of what happens when a pop-culture movement takes hold of an industry and then overreaches.... In 'The Flash,' Barry Allen (the hero’s alter ego) has to explain to an alternate version of himself that they can’t keep manipulating the time stream. 'These worlds,' Barry says, looking at the C.G.I. representations of space and time around him, 'they’re colliding and collapsing.' 'We did this,' he continues. 'We’re destroying the fabric of everything.'"
From "Is This the Endgame for the Age of Heroes? Audiences are showing fatigue when it comes to Marvel’s box office behemoths of recent years. Based on what they were served in 2023, it’s hard to blame them" (NYT).
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६९ टिप्पण्या:
I think I saw one MCU movie.
I was at the Austin Film Festival and Larry Kasdan said, "We don't know when the last superhero movie will be made, but it's coming."
There was a recent bomb; maybe that was it.
But this is good as it gives me a better chance to sell my, "Frankenstein, Part II."
Go see "The Boys in the Boat." Rated - G. 10/10 by DDB. IMDB has it at 7.3.
Flash is DC, not Marvel
NYT finally notices what people have been discussing for a few years now yet still tries to shape the narrative. Comic fans are used to “doing homework”. What they are tired of is wholesale changes of characters to shallow replicas that only serve some diversity purpose exterior to the story.
The best of these, Captain America, we continue to rewatch. An honorable underdog physically changed by science, his story is always about how his ethics clash with not only evil but also the good guys who justify their means.
That sense of a personal hero rather than a generic one serving the MCU has been lost over the years.
I guess what's even more funny is that "The Flash" is DC, not the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
But yes, between the woke and the homework, these will die out.
The earlier Marvel movies were actually quite good- all of the Captain America movies were the very best ones followed by Iron Man I. The first Avenger movie was well written and fun, but the CGI got way out of control, and after "Age of Ultron", I quit watching them. The only other one I have seen was Thor: Ragnorok which again has the same problems with overused CGI, and I thought was utterly ridiculous. I refuse to come back to watch any of them.
The earlier television series were good, too- I quite liked "Agents of Shield" and "Agent Carter", and I thought "Jessica Jones", "Daredevil", "The Punisher' were excellent throughout their runs. People whose taste I trust tell me the more recent series are just dreck, so I have avoided them completely.
They misspelled disgust with woke bullshit
“We’re destroying the fabric of everything.“
Isn’t that what Hitler said? Or was it Trump?
Lol. The journos are at it again. I sent my kids a screenshot of an AP article on Pope Francis' Christmas address. They wrote that Jesus lived during King David's empire. We all had a good laugh.
I expect them to get religion wrong, but I figured someone would know the difference between MCU and DC. I guess not.
The people of the times dont know anything and they pride themselves about it
Ditto for captain carter although the thirdseason of shields was iffy
“We’re destroying the fabric of everything.“
Isn’t that what Hitler said? Or was it Trump?
Maybe it was the Mothman.
Hydra took over disney and warner bros
Robert Downey, Jr., Chris Evans, Chris Pratt, Chris Hemsworth, and Scarlett Johanson, are pretty fair actors, but the ones coming later in the MCU are more like diversity hires than pretty good actors hired to inhabit comic book characters. Has Chris Pratt ever made a movie that wasn’t fun to watch? If you doubt Chris Hemsworth’s acting chops, go watch “Rush” or “12 Strong.”
DEI, ESG, fiscal infidelity, usurping shareholders' rights, and other selfiesh choices.
You don't have that problem with porn.
The child Quaestor tried mightily to assimilate the Marvel Universe back when it was confined to wood pulp and ink (there was a limited animation series on TV, but nothing like numerous the live-action interpretations of DC properties like Superman and Batman) and failed completely. Consequently I have no horse running in this particular race, though the prospect of Hollywood unshackled from absurd fantasy is mouthwatering.
So what has gone wrong? Seems to me, a speculator rather than a witness, to be the devolution of the genre from puerile fantasy into soap opera.
Meade said...
“We’re destroying the fabric of everything.“
"Isn’t that what Hitler said? Or was it Trump?"
Martha Stewart.
The article claims to be about the MCU but we get snippets from The Flash, a DC product. That's just lazy writing.
It took this purported "complexity" of this CGI/superhero/explosion tripe to turn people off from it? Really??
Newsflash: These aren't exactly 'Being John Malkovich', y'know?
I recently saw the '90s referred to as "La Belle Époque" of American culture, at least popular culture, and I would have to say it's true. Movies from that era dealt with themes that are forbidden in today's fare. Marvel has the advantage of not violating any of the taboos imposed on our art by our cultural and political regime. Therefore, the beatings will continue until morale improves.
"Age of heros"? No. Age of overly referential "series"? Yes. Or as Quaestor said, soap operas.
It is Disney killing things off.
The Greeks could deal with any theme they wanted in their plays, and thousands of years later, they still get performed, or at least referred to. I think that there was just a sort of remake of Trojan Women. Rome demanded that all plays uphold the glory of the state. Nobody watches Roman plays anymore, nobody. We are at the Roman state of Western art.
It always struck me that Marvel in particular made a gross CGI mistake in trying to replicate all the distracting bullshit the comic artists threw on their pages. When it's static print, it can be glossed over and the central figure isn't lost. On screen... it's just a bunch of moving shapes and the more they threw in, the more it cost, which made them use faster and cheaper renters and looks like crap.
@Ice Nine:
To counterpoint, 'Being John Malkovich' sucked. It was just another example of Hollywood self-stroking.
Good gracious- even nanna knows DC not Marcel. NYT isn’t under some government obligation to get everything wrong, are they?
Movie audiences will tire of any genre eventually, especially if (a) the later films are not as good and/or (b) too many films are shoveled out in a short period of time.
After Avengers: Endgame, the MCU has released 11 movies, 10 in the past 3 years, plus many streaming entries. Other than the 2 Spider-Man films and the Guardians of the Galaxy installment, the films have suffered from characters no one knows and/or no one really cares about (Shang-Chi, the Eternals, Captain Marvel), and/or have not been particularly good movies, the latest The Marvels being atrocious and Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania not being much better. There's also the matter that the movies before Avengers: Endgame were advancing an overall plot that made each entry necessary viewing, while the movies since then seem to be aimless. I understand that the end of the The Marvels is setting up a new Avengers, but the initial roster appears to be a couple of characters primarily from streaming that have not had a lot of traction, and a new character introduced in Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania that no one seems to like. (They are all female, of course.) It is apparent that Disney's strategy for the MCU is to push out lots and lots of content, and they are running into the problem that (a) a lot of that content is not very good and (b) it is all a bit overwhelming.
As for the DCU, the entire film series seems to be a rushed attempt to create their version of the MCU. To make a shared universe work you need to establish the characters first so the audience cares, which the DCU failed to do and then jumped immediately into the team up. This has flopped, so they are rebooting. There were some good films in there, but most of them were mediocre to bad, not to mention the shelved Batgirl which was apparently so bad that it was too terrible to release. It is not genre fatigue to not like bad films.
Of course, that leads to the question of why many of these films are bad. This becomes a culture war question, given Disney's all-in on DEI and woke, so of course the New York Times wants to find excuses that deflect from that aspect. Blaming the audience is always a tried to trued strategy.
Stick: "They misspelled disgust with woke bullshit"
Precisely.
The Studio Wokies are kicking up as much dust and chaff as they can to avoid responsibility for their value-destroying culture-assaulting piss-poor-casting decisions all targeting an audience that the Hollywood gang despises.
And that audience of entertainment refugees finally had enough and voted with their feet to leave...leaving the woke studios in a desert of their own making.
Meade said...
“We’re destroying the fabric of everything.“
Isn’t that what Hitler said? Or was it Trump?
I think that was Weezer.
Its mythos for the common era, i couldnt stand rdj in the 80s and 90s but eventually i did
It has little to do with homework and everything to do with quality of the story. I never grew up in reading Marvel comics but jumped into the middle of some the series and was enjoyed the movies to the point I have gone back and watched most of the early ones. If you are really adventurous and have Disney+ you can watch them in either release order or in order of story timeline.
Unsaid in the comments above relating to the degradation of quality from the beginning until now, is the change in who manages and produces the movies.
I still watch most of them. I keep hoping that there's some universe in the multiverse that isn't politically correct. They haven't yet found one, but that's not proof that somewhere out there, there isn't a universe populated by scantily clad women waiting to be rescued from phallic shaped monsters.....The people who designed the special effects are eons ahead of the people who craft the story lines. The problem is that one gets used to witnessing miracles. The wow effect is hard to replicate. Even James Cameron has had trouble topping himself.....Lately they've been reduced to looking for witty dialogue to carry the movie. Guardians, Deadpool, a recent Thor all had witty dialogue. I'm okay with it and it's more tolerable than having some 110 lb woman rescue the cosmos, but it's not peak Marvel.
Put Jon Favreau in charge of all MCU and Star Wars and you'll see how quickly the fatigue is forgotten and there's a lot of I merest put there for good storytelling.
Did the article mention the DC Flash wasn't just poor writing but there was also major pushback against the star of the movie for his crazy behavior off screen including abusing women?
Without favreau iron man might not have gotten off the ground rdj was a big player but so was jeff bridges who was the rdj type in the 80s brash iconoclast
>Oligonicella said...
@Ice Nine:
To counterpoint, 'Being John Malkovich' sucked. It was just another example of Hollywood self-stroking.<
Yeah, I didn't care for it either. However, there's no counterpoint since my comment didn't pertain to the relative quality of it but rather to the relative complexity of it, per the complexity issue in the OP.
None of the superhero movies are particularly good, but for a limited window, they were fun. Now Disney has chosen to ramp up the DEI nonsense to 11. I also believe that the man-babies who used to love superhero movies have found other ways to waste their time.
Mattel plans to release a bunch of trash movies in the near future, due to the success of "Barbie". It's about to get much, much worse.
"The Flash" was a terrible movie, but it has a very funny cameo where a terribly CGI'd Nicolas Cage fights a giant spider. It's a weird callback to the Kevin Smith story about working with producer Jon Peters on the aborted "Superman Lives" script.
I waited way too long to watch the Lord of the Rings trilogy. I told myself I needed to read the books first, and so I missed them all when they were in the theaters. But the difference between those films and the Marvel-verse movies (along with the last seven Star Wars movies in the "Skywalker" saga) is vast. Source material is the major reason. And Peter Jackson's trilogy really was a labor of love, and was embraced as such by the actors and crew.
Yep, this is the reason I generally don't watch them (DC or Marvel)...as well as the 'universe' aspect of it - mish-mashing superheroes together.
However, (the) Suicide Squad and Harley Quinn movies were quite good fun.
"...the endgame for the Age of Heros?" assertion is a bit much. Unnecessary drama. The "Hero" is an archetype and will be found in our stories until we stop writing them.
Yes. But it also misses the much larger point. Which is that increasingly these movies s*ck. They aren't good. Take Superhero Movie Fatigue(tm) off the table and when we *do* buy a ticket and go see these movies we come home thinking "what the bleep was that???"
"It's about to get much, much worse."
Brain Surgeon Barbie.
(tee-hee) You have a really icky subdural hematoma. Nurse Ken, prepare the patient!
I've watched a few only because they started getting big when my kids were still around.
But they are pure escapism and the stories are just made up as they go along.
You can never get invested in the characters because you know they will always win.
Even if they 'die' they will be resurrected via some time travel bullshit.
Really lazy Hollywood products but (for a while) it paid the bills...
It's not "the endgame for the age of heroes." These Marvel films were a cash cow for Hollywood and now that cow is running dry. They just milked it too much. They were cranking these films out so fast that they became crap and people got bored.
At some point, there will be new Hollywood heroes.
As Fifi said in the 1979 film, Mad Max, "They say people don't believe in heroes anymore. Well damn them! You and me Max are going to give them back their heroes!"
(BTW, the American soundtrack that American International Pictures put to Mad Max is terrible. The voices are quite cartoon-like. If you're going to watch that film, get a DVD or Blu Ray that has the original Australian soundtrack as an option.)
"But the difference between [the Lord of the Rings Trilogy] and the Marvel-verse movies (along with the last seven Star Wars movies in the "Skywalker" saga) is vast. Source material is the major reason. And Peter Jackson's trilogy really was a labor of love, and was embraced as such by the actors and crew."
Yeah, they're not even on the same planet.
The Lord of the Rings movies are fantastic. When I saw Fellowship in the theater, I was annoyed by the changes to the character Arwen, but when I saw the Balrog I was hooked. The mixture of practical effects and CGI is still amazing.
But then Peter Jackson fell in love with his worst instincts with the Hobbit trilogy, and no one reined him in. Too much CGI and none of the charm of either the source material or the previous movies.Very similar to what's happening with the Marvel movies.
Lord of the Rings had a set story arc that was exceptionally well written. One of the things that makes the movies work is that already established plot. That does not guarantee success, but when you know all the story beats and the story beats are good, it does help a great deal. (Notably the spinoffs on streaming do not have this benefit and they are generally awful, especially since they got "strong female character" showrunners.)
The first part of the MCU had an overarching story. It was going to conclude with Thanos, and most of the movies linked into that story. There was some wiggle room to make adjustments on the fly, but for the most part they knew where they were going and they paid it off. Good stuff.
The second part of the MCU kinda, sorta knows that Kang the Conqueror is some sort of end goal, but the implementation of that in the movies has been haphazard. They only really brought it to the front in the Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania film, which is far too late in the story to try to be establishing the main villain, plus the movie was bad. The fact that the actor who plays Kang has now been fired for being a creep is not going to help matters. Whoever was supposed to be overseeing this has lost control and it probably is too late to fix it.
As for the DCU, they were trying to do the MCU Thanos thing, but didn't know what they were doing and bungled it.
What would make the MCU movies better would be the producers and directors doing the homework. But then, that's the biggest problem. MCU, DC, Star Wars all have a catalog of stories loved by fans that could be put to film, but that would mean sharing profits with the creators of those stories. So instead, they borrow elements and mash them together with a certain message they want to put out and the consumers get some watered-down garbage of what they once loved that misses the point of why they loved it.
Case in point, compare Captain America to Captain Marvel from the movies. Steve Rodgers is a patriot that wants to fight for his country but lacks the stature to do so. He's willing to train hard, fail, and undergo a special procedure to become strong enough to fight for what he believes in, which includes fighting alongside his childhood friend. Carol Danvers has a similar story but rather than spend 15 minutes showing her struggle and working hard to become a capable fighter pilot; we get a flashback to a few failures in which she was ridiculed by men including her own father, but she picked herself up and showed them. She has few attachments to anyone in her life and starts the movie fighting alongside people that we discover she doesn't really know. She seems to just like fighting, but why and for what cause is ever changing. Which one of these two main characters would you trust to be your champion?
Ice Nine:
However, there's no counterpoint since my comment didn't pertain to the relative quality of it but rather to the relative complexity of it, per the complexity issue in the OP.
Just to be overboard: I was bluffing, now I'll raise you two Multiverses.
It’s the worst-performing M.C.U. film so far, and a perfect representation of the exhaustion on both the creative side and audience side.
At least the article recognizes that there is a problem with the creative side. The writers don't like the source material and have objectives unrelated to producing a good movie. There didn't have to be some over-arching theme or a master villain who united a dozen movies. Thor, Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Captain America, Spider-Man and the GotG were all great characters with charismatic actors. Some of them had great chemistry when they worked together: Thor/GotG, Doctor Strange/Spider-man, Iron Man/Captain America. They could have made dozens of great movies by keeping the stakes smaller.
Audiences aren't really exhausted. The goodwill of audiences has been exhausted.
Many/most plots of the high-profile comic books were commercially developed a minimum of 50 to 100 years ago and followed folklore. The precursors included the Brother's Grimm, Jules Verne, 19th century UK Penny Dreadfuls, etc. DC followed all of this with Superman and Batman and kid-friendly content. Then along came Marvel and Stan Lee -- as the boys grew up received lefty, edgy, dark, and adult themes. The "good" and "original" plots are not at all new.
The mainstream Hollywood comic movies came much later. I'd put the start of the cash-in era as Christopher Reeve's Superman in 1978. Marvel then took over because of a creative vacuum -- Hollywood let go of originality in prioritizing simplistic, easy to develop international blockbusters. Then Woke happened and lefty Stan Lee wouldn't recognize his own work. DC and Marvel chose their greedy destiny, and now everyone is moving on.
I didn't even know I was ignoring these movies, but due to may daily visits here, I now know WHY I am avoiding them. I overheard conversations and people explaining the back story, I intuitively knew I was never going to do homework to relax 2 hours at the theater.
Well captain america was devised 80 years ago they did try a pilot and a movie that didnt quite land
Scarlett and hayley were the only women in the series with personality
Agent Carter.Yes. If Marvel turned itself into the Hayley Atwell Universe, they’d smash all box office records….
JSM
Thats in part why i resented the barbie movie
The fans the Marvel Universe was originally aimed at have no problem with understanding these thing. It's the kind geek concordance they do with everything in their lives. It was meant for mostly male gamers and comic book readers, who like the shop in The Big Bang Theory, are mostly, but not exclusively white, but absolutely 100% nerds. It's the "diverse" audience they've been trying to get woke enough to attract that can't keep up.
Bridget regan who was in both series was another strong addition, and she would have been good for red sparrow
Throw in Star Wars and Star trek.
Same fatigue. Same downhill slide.
I don't even glance at them anymore.
Meade,
Hitler? Trump? I have it on the highest authority that there's no difference between the two.
Ah Weezer.
You got your problems
I’ve got my hash pipe
They don’t write em like that anymore.
Never really got into the cape-shit line of movies. Hopefully this fad is over and we can get back to movies that have a bit more originality.
I lost interest after Endgame, because that concluded the multi-movie story arc. I saw a few later but only if word-of-mouth warranted.
In contrast, I saw the recent Godzilla Minus One. Godzilla himself was scary…quite terrifying and nothing but destruction. The story line was human- focused…people trying to recover from the devastation of WWII and here comes a raging monster bringing more purposeless devastation. Timeless themes of striving, sacrifice, love, heroism, cowardice, bravery.
One other thing I will mention here. As many media critics have noted, Disney had become primarily a girls' brand with all the focus on princesses. They acquired Star Wars and Marvel specifically so they could also market to boys again. Ironically, since then they have been desperately trying to turn Star Wars and Marvel into girls' brands.
EAB said...
"I saw the recent Godzilla Minus One."
My feed is full of people saying "GO. NOW."
Since a few commenters brought it up, Yes, Go Now. Godzilla Minus One is the best film I have seen in months. It's outstanding in almost every way.
And it cost less than $15 million to make.
As opposed to $250 million for superhero movies that tank at the box office.
Godzilla Minus One is a very good movie. Highly recommend.
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